Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: AndreNapier on April 06, 2009, 01:02:31 am
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Financial marked being the way it is and my wife inspiration made us sit down and look at hard numbers that we had spend on digital equipment ( mostly MFD ) in the past 5 years and compare one year depreciation on each investment from the point of purchase to the point of sale or upgrade. In just 60 months we wasted ( because there is no better expression ) $105,000. That is the amount that still would be in our packet if we bought exactly the same equipment but just a year later. When money when rolling in it seemed like it really did not matter but now when market bottom down it would be nice to have it.
I think I got enough couple months ago when less than a month after I bought my new Leaf AFI 7, the exact camera sold on Ebay for $12,600 with 80mm AFD from Calumet demo with 340 clicks on it.
Sickening. MFD does not have to be expansive it is just us suckers who have to have the new toys instead of a first class trip around the world with the whole family.
You can trust me that the quality of an image from Ebay's $9500 Aptus 75 is identical as from $35,000 AFI7 II and yes I have thousands of images to prove it.
I promised myself that from now on I will be wiser ( at least until real estate market picks up LOL )
Andre
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...
Sickening. MFD does not have to be expansive it is just us suckers who have to have the new toys instead of a first class trip around the world with the whole family.
...
Andre
My losses are not that grand, but I feel the same way.
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Financial marked being the way it is and my wife inspiration made us sit down and look at hard numbers that we had spend on digital equipment ( mostly MFD ) in the past 5 years and compare one year depreciation on each investment from the point of purchase to the point of sale or upgrade. In just 60 months we wasted ( because there is no better expression ) $105,000. That is the amount that still would be in our packet if we bought exactly the same equipment but just a year later. When money when rolling in it seemed like it really did not matter but now when market bottom down it would be nice to have it.
I think I got enough couple months ago when less than a month after I bought my new Leaf AFI 7, the exact camera sold on Ebay for $12,600 with 80mm AFD from Calumet demo with 340 clicks on it.
Sickening. MFD does not have to be expansive it is just us suckers who have to have the new toys instead of a first class trip around the world with the whole family.
You can trust me that the quality of an image from Ebay's $9500 Aptus 75 is identical as from $35,000 AFI7 II and yes I have thousands of images to prove it.
I promised myself that from now on I will be wiser ( at least until real estate market picks up LOL )
Andre
Andre, you are the first working professional whom I'm aware of who has posted such a frank and sincere statement. I applaud you for that. I have tried to find posts from pros justifying equipment purchases but have only found people saying that such and such a MFDB is so good and that they recovered their investment in just a few months etc etc. Thanks for the honesty and I wish you good luck in your business.
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Financial marked being the way it is and my wife inspiration made us sit down and look at hard numbers that we had spend on digital equipment ( mostly MFD ) in the past 5 years and compare one year depreciation on each investment from the point of purchase to the point of sale or upgrade. In just 60 months we wasted ( because there is no better expression ) $105,000. That is the amount that still would be in our packet if we bought exactly the same equipment but just a year later. When money when rolling in it seemed like it really did not matter but now when market bottom down it would be nice to have it.
I think I got enough couple months ago when less than a month after I bought my new Leaf AFI 7, the exact camera sold on Ebay for $12,600 with 80mm AFD from Calumet demo with 340 clicks on it.
Sickening. MFD does not have to be expansive it is just us suckers who have to have the new toys instead of a first class trip around the world with the whole family.
You can trust me that the quality of an image from Ebay's $9500 Aptus 75 is identical as from $35,000 AFI7 II and yes I have thousands of images to prove it.
I promised myself that from now on I will be wiser ( at least until real estate market picks up LOL )
Andre
I'm glad a pro has done the numbers and reported his findings - your experience confirms my suspicions. I've been wondering about this for a while from the pro POV: is the difference between, say, Phase One P45+ and P65+ enough to justify the price difference? Of course it boils down to individual photographer. But from what I've read here it almost always is argued with "I need it to be at the cutting edge" or "the difference is visible (in big prints)". There's never a hard, financial justification for it. But if your livelihood depends on it, there should.
I work in corporate finance in non-photographic industry, so I do ROI calculations on a daily basis, and this shocks me. If you're a pro and run your own business, it would behoove you to do the math. When we're talking about investments in the tens of thousands of dollars, the investments need to provide good Return On Investment (ROI) or Economic Value Added (EVA).
What is also easy to overlook is the opportunity cost. Say, upgrading from P45+ to P65+ costs 10k (might be much more, I don't know). You can either upgrade, or spend that 10k on a photo safari in Africa, or pay for a studio assistant's salary for three-four months. And you save the leasing costs. Will the safari or assistant provide more value to you in the short/medium/long term than investing in the back upgrade?
What I'm getting at is you have to determine where you should invest your money to get the highest ROI or EVA. Instead of making that decision with emotions, it should be made as a businessman. Sure, these factors are difficult to quantify. But you need to take a close and hard look at your business, what your clients want and need, and what's the best place to spend your money.
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but how much money you didn't spend in film, process and scan ?
While quality wise for my market a 5D Mark II can be enought... i find that it takes lot more time to process the files from a canon (for architecture) than from a clean MFD and distorsion free lenses...
And time is money !
But in most cases, no needs to change camera every year... except to make shure that you have a stronger ... than your neighbourg...
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but how much money you didn't spend in film, process and scan ?
While quality wise for my market a 5D Mark II can be enought... i find that it takes lot more time to process the files from a canon (for architecture) than from a clean MFD and distorsion free lenses...
And time is money !
But in most cases, no needs to change camera every year... except to make shure that you have a stronger ... than your neighbourg...
Please,
no pros pay for film,process and scan!
It's all billed to the client with a loaded invoice.
End of story,
Best,
Willem.
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but how much money you didn't spend in film, process and scan ?
That's not the point. He's still shooting with MF digital either way.
The point is that buying the latest-greatest equipment as soon as it comes out is *very* expensive compared with buying that *same equipment* a year later.
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Andre -
You are right - and its rather upsetting. A few thoughts:
- are you sure about that demo on Ebay? I think it was a misnomer,and probably went for the $17900. Maybe you are only out $100k.
- the change from cameras as mechanical instruments to electronic apparatus is part of this. Mechanical (analog) upgrades and new models always had a price premium, but it was fairly modest. They kept their residual value, and the relationship of new prices to old product had some rationale.
In the digital arena, research expense, software writing, cost of small scale production carrying heavy upfront costs move to the forefront, and the costing cycle is very much revised. Those professional photographers working at the "bleeding edge" have had to bear the brunt of this, rationalized only by a working business model that says "this still pays off for me...", and that the cost of the camera/back is not what is important.
Those of us who are enthusiasts more than professionals live off the edges of this, working with 1, 2, and even 3 year old products. The depreciation or price reductions can be rather steep in that first year.
Sorry for the ramble, and I only hope you've got some good use out of your gear. It should last you a long time (one hopes!).
Geoff
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Which is a true statement. It is a bit like cars. You buy a new one today and you pay for it like for a house. Sell it next year and you receive less than for the garage.
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Andre, I can really sympathize but it is no secret that cameras are depreciating assets! If you *needed* the camera when you bought it then you got an extra year's use out of it. I have to ask, if you could have waited a year then did you *need* it at all? Perhaps the financial payback wasn't there for you on this occasion but for some people, offering more resolution means more business and an advantage over competitors or perhaps results that they could not have achieved otherwise (e.g. fine art projects). It's not the same for everyone.
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Generally, one buys new equipment:
I. to replace old equipment which has been amortized, and/or is past its useful life.
II. with the hope and expectation that the new equipment results in a technological/cost advantage, which is realized by:
a. Cheaper cost of production - better, faster workflow, less wastage
b. Marketing advantage/first mover advantage/bragging rights, whatever one chooses to call it.
The accepted idea is to use the new equipment to make more money than could have been made with the old.
If Andre had waited, yes, he would have saved $105K. BUT, during that period, would he have been able to earn the same or greater amount of money with the old equipment?
Hindsight is a very good thing
Cheers,
Kumar
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It is interesting how I clicked the "MAKE PAYMENT" link last night, this morning while having my latte coffee go to The LL forum thinking about the return of my PhaseOne investment to read Andre's post.
You can probably make more than $100k reading minds, because you saw what I was thinking ...
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Like anything else go buy a brand new car drive it off the lot and stick a price tag on it. Guarantee you lost about 5 grand driving it one mile. Unfortunately this happens with many things in life . I also think you need to look at your system as a 3 year purchase and not a one year. What a 100 K investment is than is 33 k each year and that against the revenue you make from it. Plus what it is worth at the end of 3 years , okay maybe not much but if your making the ROI on it that not a big issue. What has happened recently comes very rare and that is a very deep recession that not many folks counted on and it hurt the prices on MF and also hurt the revenue you can draw shooting. Frankly it just sucks out here and either you hold on or close the doors. We are all in the same situation with our gear and our revenue. WE are all banging our head against the wall. Sad but true
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I promised myself that from now on I will be wiser ( at least until real estate market picks up LOL )
Andre
There is nothing wrong with sensible spending, even in good times. I am finding that out too. But I do not fault you -- you are a passionate guy, who's come into this business from another business, and you're on fire to learn and to explore, and you simply want the best tool to convey your vision. Nothing wrong with that.
Let's also not overlook the fact that, once a person gets that right tool is in your hands, and you start jamming, there is money to be made. Life is short, and you want to find the right tool. So let's not overlook the fact that that $105k could be balanced out by income too, once you got into your groove.
What continually blows my mind here are the guys that write checks for $30k, when it's not even their main business. I must be doing something wrong, to not have that disposable income.
Keep your head up. You'll be fine. You're hungry, and you want the best. But I do understand about not being the Beta Tester for these companies any longer. That is my motto too -- buy one or two notches behind the curve, and buy UsedMint whenever possible. My entire PhaseHassie system was bought used mint. Let somebody else discover the centerfold on the A75; let somebody else see if the P65 is working properly; let somebody else discover the mirror slap in the H1; let somebody else watch CaptureOne 4 crash in the middle of a paying job.
Regards to your family.
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well this idiot did the new truck thing last year just before it all hit the fan... 50g.. thought that I needed a new one,etc.. I have 6500miles on it and I am really trying to sell it now for 34g.. and have not had any takers.....hindsight makes clear I should have settled for a 2-3year old one..for at least half... ..the key to all of this is know what you need and what you don't. Some folks need the assurance of new gear..others are fine with the risk of used.
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Financial marked being the way it is and my wife inspiration made us sit down and look at hard numbers that we had spend on digital equipment ( mostly MFD ) in the past 5 years and compare one year depreciation on each investment from the point of purchase to the point of sale or upgrade. In just 60 months we wasted ( because there is no better expression ) $105,000. That is the amount that still would be in our packet if we bought exactly the same equipment but just a year later. When money when rolling in it seemed like it really did not matter but now when market bottom down it would be nice to have it.
I think I got enough couple months ago when less than a month after I bought my new Leaf AFI 7, the exact camera sold on Ebay for $12,600 with 80mm AFD from Calumet demo with 340 clicks on it.
Sickening. MFD does not have to be expansive it is just us suckers who have to have the new toys instead of a first class trip around the world with the whole family.
You can trust me that the quality of an image from Ebay's $9500 Aptus 75 is identical as from $35,000 AFI7 II and yes I have thousands of images to prove it.
I promised myself that from now on I will be wiser ( at least until real estate market picks up LOL )
Andre
Blame Calumet not your decision to buy when you did, they ruined the 2nd hand market values for Leaf and Sinar products and aside from that auction they dumped a number of 75 and 75s and LV75 backs for around 10k or less. This is not only wrong unfair to the manufacturer/distributor and other dealers but even worse for their own clients that they charged full price for. Leaf and Sinar are also partially to blame, they should have made a deal with Calumet to either buy all or some of the units back or help move them discretely and protected their dealers and customers. You don't see Phase products dropping in value like this, but I'm sure that they're affected too because of this.
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Please,
no pros pay for film,process and scan!
It's all billed to the client with a loaded invoice.
End of story,
Best,
Willem.
I agree! and none of use should be paying for the digital back.. I moaned and groaned about buying my first one but after 3 years my billing had
it covered.. as well as depreciated on taxes..but this only works if you are working..and billing for what you should be billing for.
I would bet that a higher percentage mfdb guys charge for the back and capture fees than do canon only shooters...and with more and more shooters going that direction it is only making it tougher for those who bill for all of their expenses... it takes some 'nads to stick to your guns.
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Financial marked being the way it is and my wife inspiration made us sit down and look at hard numbers that we had spend on digital equipment ( mostly MFD ) in the past 5 years and compare one year depreciation on each investment from the point of purchase to the point of sale or upgrade. In just 60 months we wasted ( because there is no better expression ) $105,000. That is the amount that still would be in our packet if we bought exactly the same equipment but just a year later. When money when rolling in it seemed like it really did not matter but now when market bottom down it would be nice to have it.
I think I got enough couple months ago when less than a month after I bought my new Leaf AFI 7, the exact camera sold on Ebay for $12,600 with 80mm AFD from Calumet demo with 340 clicks on it.
Sickening. MFD does not have to be expansive it is just us suckers who have to have the new toys instead of a first class trip around the world with the whole family.
You can trust me that the quality of an image from Ebay's $9500 Aptus 75 is identical as from $35,000 AFI7 II and yes I have thousands of images to prove it.
I promised myself that from now on I will be wiser ( at least until real estate market picks up LOL )
Andre
Don't hold your breath as the market (Realestate) aint getting better any time soon.
As long as guys keep paying big $$$ for MFDB's the companies will keep ripping us off.
I would NEVER myself buy any MFDB new. Just like I would not buy a NEW car. Drive it off the lot and it is worth many $$$$ LESS. That is known to come with new car sells.
I bought my P30 used with cameras and got a pretty good deal and even so those prices dropped Heavily after my purchase.
Also about 2 months before the crisis started I posted a thread asking how many have been affected by the crisis so far and a lot of guys jumped in saying what crisis like smart asses. Now they know what I was talking about.
I hear in New York you can hear a Pin drop. Nothing really going on there. Just a bunch of Big photographers with BIG expenses who will be going down the pipes really fast as New York is not cheap!!!
Luckily where I live things have picked up a little and thank gosh we rely more on China than the US as China is supposed Kicking ass right now...:+}
I feel for you and agree when the $$$ is rolling in we get a little high and pay what ever thinking it will keep rolling in.
Not anymore. Every one of my purchases have been well thought out after the crisis started for us here about in September 2008.
I can garantee you my MF days are over. Unless they come out with something in the 30-50 megapixel range, which is still over kill (for my work) and has leaf shutter lens', big LCD screen and Light weight and under 10,000us$. Forget it!
There nothing that cannot be done with the current 5DII if you ask me. and it cost 2600.00
Argue it all you want but if your not printing HUGE there is NO difference, period! all the rest is Rep hype BS.
Like the current P60 BS if you ask me. WHo the hell is going to pay that much in these times for some that looks like the original back from the 90's????
It is all marketing BS which I admit I do the same making SHITTY clothing look good by using good light and pretty models....
Sounds like you bought a lot of stuff like a lot of us with out thinking if you "really" needed it or "wanted it... that is the great part of life.
Do you need it or want it.
A can garantee you do not "need" much.
This crisis is good in one way, for me atleast. It has made me re think a lot of things and also opened my mind to other aspects of photography.
I think it was einstein? who said that crisis brings growth and forces people to be more creative with new ideas.
These Big Back manufacturers have been pulling the wool over your eyes for a long time!!!
Snook
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Blame Calumet not your decision to buy when you did, they ruined the 2nd hand market values for Leaf and Sinar products and aside from that auction they dumped a number of 75 and 75s and LV75 backs for around 10k or less. This is not only wrong unfair to the manufacturer/distributor and other dealers but even worse for their own clients that they charged full price for. Leaf and Sinar are also partially to blame, they should have made a deal with Calumet to either buy all or some of the units back or help move them discretely and protected their dealers and customers. You don't see Phase products dropping in value like this, but I'm sure that they're affected too because of this.
This is absolutely BS what you say.
They saved their asses from the Backs being worth even less around the immediate corner.
The ONLY people to blame for the MFDB prices is the dealers themselves!
I was thinking of doing the same. Selling off before it was really worth close to nothing... But decided to keep all in the end as it was too much of a LOSS!!!
I will shoot with my P30 until it dies and use my canons for everything else I need to.
Have you seen the sales here and on ebay lately. seems A LOT are doing the same after the 5DII and D3X came out.
Calumet did the right thing. they did not want to sit on the shit and have it worth NOTHING sooner rather than later.
Plus some lucky bastards got some really good deals..:+]
Snook
PS> The same is going to happen to phase really soon I hate to say it. No way they are going to sell the P65 at the current price range, and if so it will be by custom orders where they build SOLD units only as back up to the Leica S2's the same guys have bought...:+}
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Blame Calumet not your decision to buy when you did, they ruined the 2nd hand market values for Leaf and Sinar products and aside from that auction they dumped a number of 75 and 75s and LV75 backs for around 10k or less. This is not only wrong unfair to the manufacturer/distributor and other dealers but even worse for their own clients that they charged full price for. Leaf and Sinar are also partially to blame, they should have made a deal with Calumet to either buy all or some of the units back or help move them discretely and protected their dealers and customers. You don't see Phase products dropping in value like this, but I'm sure that they're affected too because of this.
SinarBron, Sinar's distributor in the USA also moved a lot of stuff on eBay. So why wouldn't Calumet??
http://myworld.ebay.com/sinarbron&ssPa...:MEFSX:SELLERID (http://myworld.ebay.com/sinarbron&ssPageName=STRK:MEFSX:SELLERID)
Kumar
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Financial marked being the way it is and my wife inspiration made us sit down and look at hard numbers that we had spend on digital equipment ( mostly MFD ) in the past 5 years and compare one year depreciation on each investment from the point of purchase to the point of sale or upgrade. In just 60 months we wasted ( because there is no better expression ) $105,000. That is the amount that still would be in our packet if we bought exactly the same equipment but just a year later. When money when rolling in it seemed like it really did not matter but now when market bottom down it would be nice to have it.
I think I got enough couple months ago when less than a month after I bought my new Leaf AFI 7, the exact camera sold on Ebay for $12,600 with 80mm AFD from Calumet demo with 340 clicks on it.
Sickening. MFD does not have to be expansive it is just us suckers who have to have the new toys instead of a first class trip around the world with the whole family.
You can trust me that the quality of an image from Ebay's $9500 Aptus 75 is identical as from $35,000 AFI7 II and yes I have thousands of images to prove it.
I promised myself that from now on I will be wiser ( at least until real estate market picks up LOL )
Andre
It's not all price decreases. Last fall I was jonesing for the Nikkor 24-70 zoom that everyone raves about, and now the price has gone up about $200.
I agree with you that a lot of photographers lust after the latest-and-greatest, and the manufacturers seem to take advantage of that!
Peter
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- are you sure about that demo on Ebay? I think it was a misnomer,and probably went for the $17900. Maybe you are only out $100k.
Here's one for you Geoff
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=130295095610 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=130295095610)
Patrik
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My dad explained the economics of new vs used to me when he bought a two year old car in 1960. He said he'd probably never buy another new car. Funny thing is, he actually bought *only* new cars over the next 40 years.
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Here's one for you Geoff
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=130295095610 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=130295095610)
Patrik
That's a good one. But the AFI demo sale at Calumet appears to have been a typo, and was pulled that day. They listed it again (within 30 minutes) as $17,900. Still a great deal.
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My dad explained the economics of new vs used to me when he bought a two year old car in 1960. He said he'd probably never buy another new car. Funny thing is, he actually bought *only* new cars over the next 40 years.
Yeh he said he would never buy YOU a new car...:+]
Snook
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Please,
no pros pay for film,process and scan!
It's all billed to the client with a loaded invoice.
End of story,
Best,
Willem.
Yes, and as noted, pros should/often do bill for use/rental/processing of the digital back, whether it's rented from a rental house or "rented" from the pro's overhead. There is a fee for using the digital back that, in theory, offsets, its use and 'replacement' over film processing. At the short end, it should be a wash, in the long-end, it should help pay off the digital back faster.
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I can garantee you my MF days are over. Unless they come out with something in the 30-50 megapixel range, which is still over kill (for my work) and has leaf shutter lens', big LCD screen and Light weight and under 10,000us$. Forget it!
There nothing that cannot be done with the current 5DII if you ask me. and it cost 2600.00
I've gone through all stages of digital from the Kodak 760 to today owning two digital backs, three Nikons, three Canons, one Leica and probably have 100 terabytes to show for it.
The first Canon 1ds1's were magic and to this day I think the most ground breaking camera I've ever used, also the most profitable. We used those cameras around the world until I wore the paint off of them (actually I don't think they have paint).
I was zoned on that camera and could produce jpegs that were very close to the look of the final output which were perfect or web galleries and contact sheets. My studio manager and I would sit in restaurant patios and uploaded web galleries and laugh about how easy and inexpensive digital was. I never thought about upgrading until I started reading the forums, which concentrate mostly on pixel crops at 200%.
I knew then I should probably buy three more of those canons, put them in a safety deposit box and resist the urge to ever buy another digital capture device.
Then Ii got the bug for a bigger file and bought two 1ds2's. They dropped files, the jpegs for web galleries were very difficult to shoot without red faces, the 4pin firewire was a disaster to keep it connected to a computer and the AA filter was double strength. They did shoot faster and had a slightly bigger and better lcd, but compared to the original 1ds1's the workload doubled.
So then I moved to medium format and the workload tripled, the usability went down by 1/2 , the cost was (at the time 4x the price of a Canon) and the storage also doubled.
I made money with all of these cameras, but once again, the workload went from having an espresso in the hotel lobby and laughing to sitting in hotel rooms crunching through jpegs to three in the morning.
I also went from buying with that dreaded feeling of remorse. I just couldn't get it out of my brain, that bigger is always better, or if so and so just shot the Prada Campaign with a medium format back, I should be also, but I knew that this was more perception than reality.
Now I've come full circle back to the Canons and the Nikons for 75% of my work
We still carry the digital backs but they are only used a small percentage of the time and I don't think that most photographers that work in volume can just have one camera system that does everything.
I also don't have huge remorse about buying anything, because I've used and profited from everything I've purchased, except the 5d2 which I bought for video and have never taken out of the box except once. Actually that camera will be returned this week because it seems Canon will never give it manual video controls.
I didn't buy these cameras as a real estate investment, so I assumed they would drop in price, though I must admit I didn't think $30,000 cameras would go to $17,000 in weeks.
Today, regardless of the economy it's not the costs that will keep me from buying another medium format back, it's just the usability.
I find the 1ds3's almost magic again and honestly can't imagine going back to a medium format workflow of always having to be tethered, always batch processing jpegs, always dealing with the gltiches, the software upgrades, the hard to see lcd's and the sluggishness of the systems.
The Phase backs and solid, the version 3 software is stable for tethering, but when working under pressure these dslrs are bulletproof and so much easier to get to where I want to be with a lot less back end work.
I don't care about pixel peeping, or 16 vs. 14 bit. I don't mind sharpening a canon file to suit my style and I love the fact that I can hand hold, push a button and it just shoots and does so all day long, usually on one battery.
I sincerely hope that medium format continues, but I also sincerely hope they adjust their product to fit the market and not just on price. I have no desire to sell my medium format backs because I will still use them and honestly the prices have dropped so far that it's not going to change my life to dump them off on e-bay. I also have no desire to beta test or become the expert software guy. I'll probably use version 3 for tethering until Phase or Apple makes it non workable, but when I look at where medium format is today vs. where it was three years ago, I don't see a big enough leap in usability to justify spending more for something I am using less and less.
Medium format is always just "almost" there when it comes to workflow. they give is bigger lcd's but they're still challanged, they up the iso, but limit the file size, they offer shaprer files but constantly run the risk of moire and they give us some lenses we need, take forever for other lenses we must have. They give us better software, especially for previews, but then require weekly updates to get it right and at features like quickproof processing that takes a class to understand how to make them. Medium format requires a lot from their customers and it's not just the cost.
I honestly believe if you could transport yourself back in time and hand any film photographer a Canon and a medium format camera, say work for the day with each one and tell me which one costs $20,000 to $40,000 and which one costs $6,500 I am positive they would think the Canon is the more expensive camera.
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Yes, and as noted, pros should/often do bill for use/rental/processing of the digital back, whether it's rented from a rental house or "rented" from the pro's overhead. There is a fee for using the digital back that, in theory, offsets, its use and 'replacement' over film processing. At the short end, it should be a wash, in the long-end, it should help pay off the digital back faster.
Obviously the role of a professional is to turn a profit and even it today's economy that's more than possible.
Still, the days of digital being cheaper than film are gone. Sure the Cameras have come down in price, though the back end workflow has doubled, tripled, quadrupled. The investment in computers, software, calibration devices, monitors, batteries, storage, backups has also more than covered the costs of polaroid, film and processing.
If you get caught up in this digital stuff it's easy to miss the forest for the trees. You find yourself "studying" a new software, rather than shooting. You start pulling up comparisions of one file to he next to check detail and if your not careful the camera can become the over riding thought processs, not the photograph and none of us are really paid for our cameras.
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Blame Calumet not your decision to buy when you did, they ruined the 2nd hand market values for Leaf and Sinar products and aside from that auction they dumped a number of 75 and 75s and LV75 backs for around 10k or less. This is not only wrong unfair to the manufacturer/distributor and other dealers but even worse for their own clients that they charged full price for. Leaf and Sinar are also partially to blame, they should have made a deal with Calumet to either buy all or some of the units back or help move them discretely and protected their dealers and customers. You don't see Phase products dropping in value like this, but I'm sure that they're affected too because of this.
Indeed, how stupid of Calumet to protect their own interests first, instead of everyone else's. Ah, if only everyone involved would collude to keep prices forever high, for the feel-good benefit of early adopters!
As for "... move them discretely...", look for a guy in an oversized trench coat, approaching passerby, and flashing it: "Pssst, buddy! Wanna buy a mint MFDB?
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I agree with Slobodan's sarcasm here. To wish that the retailers would collude to price fix and keep these cameras more expensive than they need to be is insane. IMO your logic is all turned around. Have you not noticed that rates have gone down across the board? Photographers rates, makeup and hair, models rates are lower, retouching, etc etc etc. Just how would higher camera prices help here?
Sheesh.
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Yeh he said he would never buy YOU a new car...:+]
Snook
Aha! Makes more sense now!
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Obviously the role of a professional is to turn a profit and even it today's economy that's more than possible.
Still, the days of digital being cheaper than film are gone. Sure the Cameras have come down in price, though the back end workflow has doubled, tripled, quadrupled. The investment in computers, software, calibration devices, monitors, batteries, storage, backups has also more than covered the costs of polaroid, film and processing.
If you get caught up in this digital stuff it's easy to miss the forest for the trees. You find yourself "studying" a new software, rather than shooting. You start pulling up comparisions of one file to he next to check detail and if your not careful the camera can become the over riding thought processs, not the photograph and none of us are really paid for our cameras.
Could not agree more. Just bought a new Mac. Now will need Ram & I am going to get Phase One 4.7 to tether with the 1dsMKIII. We do have the 5DII & I think for the money it is a brilliant camera. It doesn't have the work horse feel of the 1DsMKIII but for many photographers it will do the job & with the $ difference they can buy a new computer, ram, hard drives, storage....you know the never ending computer updates. The big challenge that MFD has is that the world wide sales per year is about 5000-6000 units all up. Meaning that Hasselblad, Phase/Mamiya, Leaf & Sinar are all competing for that small market share. I have heard that the 5DII will sell about 300,000 units world wide in the life of that camera. ( over 3 years that is 100,000 units/year) Went to a camera sale the other day & 18 5DII cameras all sold in about 5 minutes, they were new with full warranty in damaged boxes. I heard people were fighting over them!
Denis
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Obviously the role of a professional is to turn a profit and even it today's economy that's more than possible.
Still, the days of digital being cheaper than film are gone. Sure the Cameras have come down in price, though the back end workflow has doubled, tripled, quadrupled. The investment in computers, software, calibration devices, monitors, batteries, storage, backups has also more than covered the costs of polaroid, film and processing.
If you get caught up in this digital stuff it's easy to miss the forest for the trees. You find yourself "studying" a new software, rather than shooting. You start pulling up comparisions of one file to he next to check detail and if your not careful the camera can become the over riding thought processs, not the photograph and none of us are really paid for our cameras.
James, great points. I 100% agree.
My point was also to add that, perhaps with exception of the current dismal economy, pros should be building all the associated costs/time/etc that a digital workflow requires. It was done the same way in the analog days, it's just that the line items were different.
As an extremely low-volume image producer and having never used analog processes, I don't have the knowledge to know exactly how the cost/benefit matrix is divided between analog of the 'olden days' and the digital of the current days. However, my assumption is that costs incurred by a pro are passed on to the customer; it's just that the math may be slightly different to take into account the overhead and depreciation/rolling upgrade costs versus direct cost of specific volume darkroom and scanning services.
-Josh
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I am curious why so many pros talk about using 5D2s, but I barely ever hear anyone talking about the Sony A900. Is there some reason why it is unsuited, or is it just the momentum of existing equipment carrying over into the next generation?
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SinarBron, Sinar's distributor in the USA also moved a lot of stuff on eBay. So why wouldn't Calumet??
http://myworld.ebay.com/sinarbron&ssPa...:MEFSX:SELLERID (http://myworld.ebay.com/sinarbron&ssPageName=STRK:MEFSX:SELLERID)
Kumar
Kumar,
Sinar Bron has a demo sale every fall. First dealers have a crack at the items at a discounted price. Then it is opened to direct sales to customers. And then finally it is closed out thru Ebay.
Typically these are sales representative samples, trade show items, or items used for warranty purposes.
I used to work for SBI, and then worked for a dealer. Dealers always had the first crack.
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James, great points. I 100% agree.
My point was also to add that, perhaps with exception of the current dismal economy, pros should be building all the associated costs/time/etc that a digital workflow requires. It was done the same way in the analog days, it's just that the line items were different.
As an extremely low-volume image producer and having never used analog processes, I don't have the knowledge to know exactly how the cost/benefit matrix is divided between analog of the 'olden days' and the digital of the current days. However, my assumption is that costs incurred by a pro are passed on to the customer; it's just that the math may be slightly different to take into account the overhead and depreciation/rolling upgrade costs versus direct cost of specific volume darkroom and scanning services.
-Josh
Do not know what market you all are in but where I live the clients are getting cheaper and cheaper and NO WAY pay any kind of Dgitial Tech fees etc.. You all live in a fantasy world. Wish I was there with you.
If I try to cover any extra fees I would be laughed out of every budget.
I think that billing the client everything BS is so 90's and will die soon everywhere. Hopefully not for you all but.......
The clients are the ONLY ones that have benefitted for the move to digital where they had to pay $$$$$$$$$$$ for film and development and polaroids where now a days they hire you expecting everything.
Yeh I understand trying to mix it into the budget, but that does not work for me atleast b/c the prices are what they are and I had to wrk in the digital cost it would therefor up my fees which would keep me out of the running.
I think most people in the USA are still on the bill it to the client attitude, Sounds so New York...:+]
I am the photographer, Lab and retocuher now adys and it takes up all my time.
Yeh retoucher is another item that the clients are starting to put into the final batch of photographers expense!!! UUUUUFFFFFFFFF
I really niss the days off dropping off the film and going to the beach and have a quick surf!!!
Not so sure all the digital crap has been great. And there is NO WAY back now for sure... You guys enjoy the Billing the client attitude while it last....
You know how many retouchers gone photographer I know, the list get's BIGGER every day.
Keep an eye out for this is coming to a theatre near you very soon also...:+}
Snook
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Do not know what market you all are in but where I live the clients are getting cheaper and cheaper and NO WAY pay any kind of Dgitial Tech fees etc.. You all live in a fantasy world. Wish I was there with you.
If I try to cover any extra fees I would be laughed out of every budget.
I think that billing the client everything BS is so 90's and will die soon everywhere. Hopefully not for you all but.......
The clients are the ONLY ones that have benefitted for the move to digital where they had to pay $$$$$$$$$$$ for film and development and polaroids where now a days they hire you expecting everything.
Yeh I understand trying to mix it into the budget, but that does not work for me atleast b/c the prices are what they are and I had to wrk in the digital cost it would therefor up my fees which would keep me out of the running.
I think most people in the USA are still on the bill it to the client attitude, Sounds so New York...:+]
I am the photographer, Lab and retocuher now adys and it takes up all my time.
Yeh retoucher is another item that the clients are starting to put into the final batch of photographers expense!!! UUUUUFFFFFFFFF
I really niss the days off dropping off the film and going to the beach and have a quick surf!!!
Not so sure all the digital crap has been great. And there is NO WAY back now for sure... You guys enjoy the Billing the client attitude while it last....
You know how many retouchers gone photographer I know, the list get's BIGGER every day.
Keep an eye out for this is coming to a theatre near you very soon also...:+}
Snook
I was always under the impression that billing the client for cost's incurred was good business sense. If you are not charging for your time, be it with a camera in your hands or sat in front of a computer, then you are paying your client for the privilege of doing their work. If the cost of equipment isn't built into your business model then you are paying for it yourself... this is not taking your work seriously.
Times may be hard, but once you reverse your working practices down the dead-end street of doing stuff for free it is very difficult to return later.
I'd rather supplement my income with something unrelated than devalue my photography.
Let's face it, with the advent of digital, everyone's a photographer now. It's the ones who have a better product, work within their means and take themselves seriously who'll survive and prosper...well apart from those who're born lucky!
...and I'm in the north of England, a far cry from New York!
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ast....
You know how many retouchers gone photographer I know, the list get's BIGGER every day.
Snook
I would bet that most of them were photographers in the first place.
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I am curious why so many pros talk about using 5D2s, but I barely ever hear anyone talking about the Sony A900. Is there some reason why it is unsuited, or is it just the momentum of existing equipment carrying over into the next generation?
It's because most of the old Minolta film holdouts that were looking for a full-frame DSLR that could compete and still use their old lenses and equipment left for Canon and Nikon. Okay not most. Virtually every last one about 2-3 years ago.
So there's a lag and only the truly old who remember, the few who didn't move to digital and the new to the business are even willing to try Sony. IMO, Sony should re-name the camera Minolta or maybe Minolta and (by Sony) in small letters under the name. I think it would help sales. And but a bit notice somewhere or a list of old lenses that will work for it, because there are hundreds.
Oh, and it is a fine camera that also is worth considering for pro work. At $2500, it's quite a decent deal for the money, too. I'd rate it as equal to about 90-95% of what a DB can do. But for 90-95% of all work, you don't need that last couple of percentage points. Especially when the weak link usually is the printing and enlargement.
Oh - yes, always buy second generation of a product if possible, and always about a year or so used. A 5 year old Tacoma, for instance, will drive the same as a new one and last nearly as long. But $10K less is a no-brainer in savings.
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Do not know what market you all are in but where I live the clients are getting cheaper and cheaper and NO WAY pay any kind of Dgitial Tech fees etc.. You all live in a fantasy world. Wish I was there with you.
If I try to cover any extra fees I would be laughed out of every budget.
I think that billing the client everything BS is so 90's and will die soon everywhere. Hopefully not for you all but.......
The clients are the ONLY ones that have benefitted for the move to digital where they had to pay $$$$$$$$$$$ for film and development and polaroids where now a days they hire you expecting everything.
Yeh I understand trying to mix it into the budget, but that does not work for me atleast b/c the prices are what they are and I had to wrk in the digital cost it would therefor up my fees which would keep me out of the running.
I think most people in the USA are still on the bill it to the client attitude, Sounds so New York...:+]
I am the photographer, Lab and retocuher now adys and it takes up all my time.
Yeh retoucher is another item that the clients are starting to put into the final batch of photographers expense!!! UUUUUFFFFFFFFF
I really niss the days off dropping off the film and going to the beach and have a quick surf!!!
Not so sure all the digital crap has been great. And there is NO WAY back now for sure... You guys enjoy the Billing the client attitude while it last....
You know how many retouchers gone photographer I know, the list get's BIGGER every day.
Keep an eye out for this is coming to a theatre near you very soon also...:+}
Snook
absolutely right.
"bill it to the client", every dollar you bill to the client is a dollar less that you earn in the end. Clients have a budget and have very little threshold to exceed that.
here in asia we try to fit everything into the budget, at the end of the day the important number is the FINAL number we present them. We're pitching against competitors. The difference between winning and losing a job sometimes can be as little as a $1000 difference.
Given the choice of hiring a digi tech versus getting a smart assistant to save me $400 and do the teching, I'd go with the second option thanks.
Also, one thing I've learnt is not to trust forums too much. A lot of hype was layered on by a lot of people here about MFDB...and that influenced my decision to get one. However it turned out a lot more trouble than it's worth. The depreciation is horrible and honestly waiting 1 year while using a Canon is not a big deal. Both are cameras, one is just a slightly lower resolution than the other.
Andre, I raise my drink to you, we've all been suckered in to some degree.
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Cheers Epd! This was a nice little essay you wrote. You're a renaissance man.
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Cheers Epd! This was a nice little essay you wrote. You're a renaissance man.
He also seems to write books and scripts in his hard to find spare time.
It must be in the Tea.
Snook
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The positive side is that from now on there will probably be a leveling of the cost of digital cameras and backs. That is if people settle in close to 50MP for MF and 20MP for "35 mm" .. --12MP DX--
Cameras are maturing if you don't want to "have the one with the most resolution in the entire world" for example, a "cheap" D300 is a fantastic camera for stock shooting. Files are super clean and dynamic range is amazing...
Future top investments will probable not pass the $8k mark. My P 25 has no moving parts, the software -- I just upgraded to C 1 4.7, so it is fresh --- the file size is all what I need 22mp .. don't care that there is a Sony that has the same count (have you seen the 8MP phones ??) and IQ from the back and my prime Mamiya lenses is not degrading... for some reason it stays the same, every time I capture an image is as good as the first day.
I would say that the glass is half full
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For some reason this topic has taken a turn to a more general topic about the economic state of photography in general. Now, I am not at the stage where Epd is but not doing bad alltogether. I have no clients that are calling me to raise prices but do have them that called me to remind me to send my invoice
I have lost some clients that were cutting costs, I won several that also were cutting costs. In general I have to do more effort to get in work but I am still able to uphold the same turnover this year as last year which was an excellent year. Clients were really putting everything on hold in the beginning of this year since their clients did the same, it now appears to have gone flowing somewhat again.
Personally I have planned to do more 'free-work' that I never came around to if the work drops and if it doesn't I will make money. Either way it will be ok. I have not dropped prices neither will I, I had rather do the 'free-work'.
Euhh... BTW. I don't have debts, I only invest what I make, I don't have a high mortgage, I don't own a car, I don't own a cell phone either (but I am always online and respond on mail extremely fast) so I guess I am pretty much in the same position as Epd
As for the cost of MF. Most of the stuff I tend to buy second hand unless I can get a really good price for new or when new items are virtually unavailable 2nd hand and or almost the same price. Most important thing is that I tend to make the money before I invest.
I feel sorry you have to struggle Erick and are not being able to happily do the things you would like to. I hope this will take a turn for the better for you as well as for everybody else that is severely hit at this moment.
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The big challenge that MFD has is that the world wide sales per year is about 5000-6000 units all up. Meaning that Hasselblad, Phase/Mamiya, Leaf & Sinar are all competing for that small market share. I have heard that the 5DII will sell about 300,000 units world wide in the life of that camera.
Denis
The prices explain the size of the market, and the size of the market explains the prices. It's a simultaneous determination. When backs were at prices of 20.000 euros or more the MF market collapsed. Now the prices gravitate towards 15.000 euros or less for a complete set (camera, back and standard lens). That's expensive yet, but this decrease in prices permit an increase in the total size of the market. MF provides a different image than 35mm format. It is due to many factors, but the format size alone changes the DoF versus FoV, tonal gradation, total detail recorded..., so it makes sense as a different product, if the price isn't much higher than the price of a 35mm DSLR "pro" camera. Mamiya and Hasselblad own this growing market (645 format), and only Leica can steal a part of the cake from their hands (but a much larger piece from the "pro" 35mm DSLR market).
In the film days you could buy a 6x6 or 645 camera for a price similar to a "pro" 35mm reflex camera (a Hasselblad V, Mamiya 645, Pentax 645, Bronica 645 versus a Nikon F5, or something similar). The prices were different, but not x3, x4 or x5 times different. This convergence is necessary if the MF market wants to survive. Professional 35mm DSLR cameras stay in the 7.000-8.000 euros mark (Canon 1Ds Mark III, Nikon D3x), and the MF cameras are approaching the <x2 range from that point (< 15.000 euros). For instance a Mamiya ZD, or Mamiya 645 and Hasselblad H last special offers... and probably the Leica S2...
.
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Do not know what market you all are in but where I live the clients are .................
Snook
Forget the old days. The more you do for the client, the deeper your involvement, the more you've become a creative partner, not just a freelance supplier.
The "bill the client" thought process is like buying a car with a vinyl top. Some still think that way but it's old think and way out of fashion.
Years ago I dropped the "day rate, bill the client" thought from my brain and started working off of the bottom line.
Since our studios is the production company and produces from conception to finish, essentially we are the client in regards to services we provide for "our clients".
This isn't a single thought process business and even photographers that tell me they do not want to be concerned with numbers or costs are just talking to themselves because in commerce it's all about numbers, costs and ROI.
What quality you put in front of your lens goes a long way to determining what you will deliver and if your going to continue to move your business and art forward you better know how to negotiate the best resource for the given budget.
Photographers do themselves a great disservice if they think they are only there to produce the photograph or their roll is to only make it pretty. Our role, like it or not, is to sell goods and services for our clients or our clients, clients.
Our role is to contribute to the concept, the production, the shoot down to final delivery. We're a much larger part of the equation today than we were 10 years ago and though it may be hard, expensive and consuming, that's the process and it's not going to get any easier, at least I hope not.
Nothing on this planet is sold without interesting imagery, still or motion and nothing will build an international brand without some form of mass media, whether it's You Tube or a Conde Nast magazine.
Now back to the original post of this thread and the 100k lost through being an early adopter. I've done it, I've suffered a few bumps and bruises by jumping in, but I've also moved my business forward by knowing how to work in the modern era.
If you are working and producing then that 100k is a good investment, if you are just fixated on cameras and equipment and not taking in the whole process, then that's another story.
Whether film was easier than digital, whether it was fun to go to the lab and have a few hours off, is the past. Today we can and do produce in ways never dreamed of before and it requires more time and capital investment, though the returns are greater.
I hear of photographers that know only about the photograph and have heard the comments like EDP that say they don't have a cell phone, take plenty of time to relax and recharge, etc. etc. and if they can do it and be profitable then more power to them, but I've found this is an 18 hour a day business and it is all consuming. If you love what you do then it's not an issue, but I've found in the past if my golf game gets good, I have plenty of rest and my feet don't hurt, is the year my billings will be down.
When I am uncomfortable and exhausted then I am doing well and if I am in a room where I don't understand the language, even if that language is my native English (actually native Texan), then I know I'm moving forward because I'm learning.
In fact our busiest times is when we are not shooting because that is when we invest and push forward.
This isn't an either/or industry. If you invest in equipment it doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't invest in advertising, producing personal work and traveling to and learning other markets. Obviously you have to be smart about where you put your resources, but unless your producing new work and moving forward then you will get passed by. This is not an industry where you can hold position, waiting for the storm to blow over.
To move forward in this business you have to be available and complete. Sunday I was working on post and took a call from a new client. My producer answered the phone and the conversation went on with the client for one and a half hours and it wasn't just about art or "my style", but how we produce, deliver and work in world markets. It was about the complete process, all the way down to the bottom line.
As far as cameras, cameras are just tools and some do more things than others, some work fine in a specialty sense, but if medium format has a liability it's not in the build quality or costs, it's the usability. If the P65 (or every new medium format camera) that was just announced had live video, a 4" lcd as good as an iphone, went to high iso, had a full range of fast lenses and a way to fine tune the image in camera for quick jpeg processing, then 40 to 50k wouldn't be an issue. But to spend that 40k it has to give me much more than I have today. I personally think medium format has got to get that megapixel
thought process out of their minds and move to usability.
IMO
JRR
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If the P65 (or every new medium format camera) that was just announced had live video, a 4" lcd as good as an iphone, went to high iso, had a full range of fast lenses and a way to fine tune the image in camera for quick jpeg processing, then 40 to 50k wouldn't be an issue. But to spend that 40k it has to give me much more than I have today. I personally think medium format has got to get that megapixel thought process out of their minds and move to usability.
That would requiere a large investment in technology. The market is so small that it doesn't make sense for Mamiya or Hasselblad. Usability depends on a good interface, good firmware and state-of-the-art hardware, but the key is the third point. It requires CMOS sensor and ASIC electronics, just like the 35mm DSLR cameras from Canon, Nikon or Sony. Maybe retroilluminated CMOS sensors without AA filters are in the pipeline from Kodak or Dalsa. Leica S2 is build from an ASIC electronics, but it uses a CCD from Kodak. It is a step in the right direction though. Moreover, MF needs a megapixel mark, because one of the key advantages of larger formats was more detail.
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James,
Your writing is always a good read.
I guess that there is a market for MFDBs and other stuff among the well situated non commercial photographers who strive for the optimum quality. These photographers may make decent money nevertheless, but probably have a other issues than folks in the commercial photo business. As far as I understand the clients you have are mostly not interested in 40 or 60 MPixels but require a complete solution for their needs. So, to my understanding, you would appreciate stuff outside the normal mould, like medium format with usable live view.
I guess that there is a need for thinking outside the box, like RED seems have done or the Micro 4/3 folks. A clunky MF SLR may not be the optimum platform for an MFDB.
Especially landscape photographers will probably always appreciate a couple of extra megapixels. We sort of want to make the picture of our lifetime, and we want it to be as good as it can be.
My personal guess is that we need MFDBs with "live view" in combination with a decent LCD. The best camera to put that MFDB on may not be an SLR but a lightweight technical camera, like the Alpa recently discussed on this forum. Of course with MFDBs you may have freedom to put in on what you need, a medium format SLR, something like the Alpa or even a technical camera like the Linhof. Just adding a workable "live view" may make the MFDB much more useful and flexible.
Best regards
Erik
Forget the old days. The more you do for the client, the deeper your involvement, the more you've become a creative partner, not just a freelance supplier.
The "bill the client" thought process is like buying a car with a vinyl top. Some still think that way but it's old think and way out of fashion.
Years ago I dropped the "day rate, bill the client" thought from my brain and started working off of the bottom line.
Since our studios is the production company and produces from conception to finish, essentially we are the client in regards to services we provide for "our clients".
This isn't a single thought process business and even photographers that tell me they do not want to be concerned with numbers or costs are just talking to themselves because in commerce it's all about numbers, costs and ROI.
What quality you put in front of your lens goes a long way to determining what you will deliver and if your going to continue to move your business and art forward you better know how to negotiate the best resource for the given budget.
Photographers do themselves a great disservice if they think they are only there to produce the photograph or their roll is to only make it pretty. Our role, like it or not, is to sell goods and services for our clients or our clients, clients.
Our role is to contribute to the concept, the production, the shoot down to final delivery. We're a much larger part of the equation today than we were 10 years ago and though it may be hard, expensive and consuming, that's the process and it's not going to get any easier, at least I hope not.
Nothing on this planet is sold without interesting imagery, still or motion and nothing will build an international brand without some form of mass media, whether it's You Tube or a Conde Nast magazine.
Now back to the original post of this thread and the 100k lost through being an early adopter. I've done it, I've suffered a few bumps and bruises by jumping in, but I've also moved my business forward by knowing how to work in the modern era.
If you are working and producing then that 100k is a good investment, if you are just fixated on cameras and equipment and not taking in the whole process, then that's another story.
Whether film was easier than digital, whether it was fun to go to the lab and have a few hours off, is the past. Today we can and do produce in ways never dreamed of before and it requires more time and capital investment, though the returns are greater.
I hear of photographers that know only about the photograph and have heard the comments like EDP that say they don't have a cell phone, take plenty of time to relax and recharge, etc. etc. and if they can do it and be profitable then more power to them, but I've found this is an 18 hour a day business and it is all consuming. If you love what you do then it's not an issue, but I've found in the past if my golf game gets good, I have plenty of rest and my feet don't hurt, is the year my billings will be down.
When I am uncomfortable and exhausted then I am doing well and if I am in a room where I don't understand the language, even if that language is my native English (actually native Texan), then I know I'm moving forward because I'm learning.
In fact our busiest times is when we are not shooting because that is when we invest and push forward.
This isn't an either/or industry. If you invest in equipment it doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't invest in advertising, producing personal work and traveling to and learning other markets. Obviously you have to be smart about where you put your resources, but unless your producing new work and moving forward then you will get passed by. This is not an industry where you can hold position, waiting for the storm to blow over.
To move forward in this business you have to be available and complete. Sunday I was working on post and took a call from a new client. My producer answered the phone and the conversation went on with the client for one and a half hours and it wasn't just about art or "my style", but how we produce, deliver and work in world markets. It was about the complete process, all the way down to the bottom line.
As far as cameras, cameras are just tools and some do more things than others, some work fine in a specialty sense, but if medium format has a liability it's not in the build quality or costs, it's the usability. If the P65 (or every new medium format camera) that was just announced had live video, a 4" lcd as good as an iphone, went to high iso, had a full range of fast lenses and a way to fine tune the image in camera for quick jpeg processing, then 40 to 50k wouldn't be an issue. But to spend that 40k it has to give me much more than I have today. I personally think medium format has got to get that megapixel
thought process out of their minds and move to usability.
IMO
JRR
-
It requires CMOS sensor and ASIC electronics, just like the 35mm DSLR cameras from Canon, Nikon or Sony.
CMOS is only needed for features like Live View. If you are okay without, no problem, the better colours of CCD is preferable. Rather than ASICs, FPGAs should be fine, and are in some ways even prefererable too.
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Depreciation? Hmmm first digi cam our studio bought was a Sony DKC 3CCD. I'd be pretty surprised if anyone that posts here is familiar with those dinosaurs BUT we paid 55K USD each. Used them for 3 years shooting product. Sold them on ebay for 1500 bucks each and that was mainly because they used BETA cam glass and each one sold with a variable lens that was at that time still being actively used for News reportage. A whopping 1.5mp those were haha too funny. They seemed so futuristic at the time. Anyways they more than were well paid for but the point is the depreciation factor became crystal clear to me right then and there. Bought the very first 6mp Lightphase too ( $37K IIRC? ) with no filter and absolutely horrid results for the first week until we got the filter trick figured out. Major pita that was we had to mount it in front of the lens and with so many lenses we gave up and made a mount up out of some grip or occasionally got an assistant to hold it for us. Eventually Phase offered a modification to the back to fit it directly on the sensor so we upgraded it. Sold that on ebay for $3K a few years later. H20 afterwards and on and on.
Anyways been on the forefront of the digital tech since it started. IIRC about 2yrs back I got arguing in a thread with some of you here about the homogenization effect that will quickly consume MF entirely. Format is moot period. Clients dont give a flying #$%# about format. I havent even been ASKED in years what system I shoot with by my clients. I ask what they need the stuff for and fill the requirements however I please and havent had a complaint yet. Billboards.... Dare I say it? 1Ds mk 1!!! Yep done it in a jam mind you but no one complained and I got paid so what the #%&* do I care I shoot to keep food on my table and gas in my Porsche not for pats on the back. JK I dont drive a Porsche that was just to raz you guys I drive a used GMC pick up with a locakble hard toneau cover. Had a bad theft years ago with a fancy car and never drove one since. The truck is cheap to maintain. Lugs all my gear anywhere and best of all? It looks exactly like the thousands and thousands on the road and who ever think to look in the back of a pick up for a couple hundred grand worth of camera gear? Exactly... Call me mr invisible I like things that way
James couldn't agree more. The 1Ds changed the game so radically and permanently. Gadgets dont sell art... Art sells art and that is in the eye of the beholder. Clients are getting better and picking out whos got the chops and who is simply another guy with a fancy camera who thinks thats what makes him great. I am so pleased for this now to be the reality as for a while there I was getting pissed by all the new fish jumping in the game thinking they had all the answers just because they had a fancy camera. There has been a clear pendulum swing in this market downturn that is RESULTS driven. Clients are getting fired if they do not produce results from their efforts and that means to us photographers that they MUST choose wisely and make sure EVERYONE likes the work or they are in it deep. Made picking up work for me easier than ever.
I've never had a busier Jan/Feb/March and it shows no sign of slowing
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I bought a Hasselblad and Cambo system with 5 lenses, 2 years ago for about €40,000 plus sales tax. Total to be paid out is about €45,000
I have it on a finance lease over 3 years. I will claim back about 47%. Therefore the whole camera system costs me about €24,000. Oh I do love my accountant. That's paid out over 3 years. That's about €8,000 a year. There's no way I would get most of my work if I did not have this or a similar camera system as I work as an architectural photographer. If I don't make back €8,000 in 3 years, than it's time to make a career change.
There's no way I'm going to make a change unless it's in my best interests. If I was to get another upgrade, well I have the lenses, I have the existing body, which I can sell off (sure at pretty bad prices at the moment) so the next finance lease would be less than half of what I pay now. What you say about the new fad buys can be correct a lot of the time. Even when the time will come to buy an upgrade I'll be like a pitbull on the leash.
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That's paid out over 3 years. That's about €8,000 a year. There's no way I would get most of my work if I did not have this or a similar camera system as I work as an architectural photographer. If I don't make back €8,000 in 3 years, than it's time to make a career change.
That was truly not my point. Each on my cameras paid for itself in just few weeks. If by " paid for itself " we mean the total income that it brought. The point is that Aptus 75 would bring exactly the same money as Aptus 75S and not a penny less than Aptus AFI. I am the first one to believe in top quality equipment. I put tons of money in the new studio to be on a cutting edge and a step ahead of competition. However when it comes to digital equipment the improvements are so minute that for all practical reasons being a year behind the newest gadgets changes truly nothing. Same sensor and folding LCD. Wow! I still can not see anything outdoors.
And Yes I charge my clients for DB but none of them asked me ever if this is the newest one or even what camera I am going to show up with.
EPD
The only person that is financially connected to my business who ever told me to raise my prices was my wife. Are you sure that they are not telling you that you are good so you finally should start charging some money.
No cell phone and so busy - Are you cashing in on the new passport requirements for Mexico?
I work 16+ hours a day and I am available to my clients 24/7
All my phones are connected and they are searching for me wherever I am. That is today business. Now back to my tea.
http://AndreNapier.com (http://AndreNapier.com)
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Si
And that's why i'm not getting another until I absolutly have to.........although I will be chomping at the bit if and when the time comes.
That was truly not my point. Each on my cameras paid for itself in just few weeks. If by " paid for itself " we mean the total income that it brought. The point is that Aptus 75 would bring exactly the same money as Aptus 75S and not a penny less than Aptus AFI. I am the first one to believe in top quality equipment. I put tons of money in the new studio to be on a cutting edge and a step ahead of competition. However when it comes to digital equipment the improvements are so minute that for all practical reasons being a year behind the newest gadgets changes truly nothing. Same sensor and folding LCD. Wow! I still can not see anything outdoors.
And Yes I charge my clients for DB but none of them asked me ever if this is the newest one or even what camera I am going to show up with.
EPD
The only person that is financially connected to my business who ever told me to raise my prices was my wife. Are you sure that they are not telling you that you are good so you finally should start charging some money.
No cell phone and so busy - Are you cashing in on the new passport requirements for Mexico?
I work 16+ hours a day and I am available to my clients 24/7
All my phones are connected and they are searching for me wherever I am. That is today business. Now back to my tea.
http://AndreNapier.com (http://AndreNapier.com)
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That was truly not my point. Each on my cameras paid for itself in just few weeks. If by " paid for itself " we mean the total income that it brought. The point is that Aptus 75 would bring exactly the same money as Aptus 75S and not a penny less than Aptus AFI. I am the first one to believe in top quality equipment. I put tons of money in the new studio to be on a cutting edge and a step ahead of competition. However when it comes to digital equipment the improvements are so minute that for all practical reasons being a year behind the newest gadgets changes truly nothing. Same sensor and folding LCD. Wow! I still can not see anything outdoors.
And Yes I charge my clients for DB but none of them asked me ever if this is the newest one or even what camera I am going to show up with.
EPD
The only person that is financially connected to my business who ever told me to raise my prices was my wife. Are you sure that they are not telling you that you are good so you finally should start charging some money.
No cell phone and so busy - Are you cashing in on the new passport requirements for Mexico?
I work 16+ hours a day and I am available to my clients 24/7
All my phones are connected and they are searching for me wherever I am. That is today business. Now back to my tea.
http://AndreNapier.com (http://AndreNapier.com)
I think EPd is some 13 year little kid who just seems to talk OHA .
No cell phone and No website and No time must get him tons of work...:+}
I know it is the Tea.
And I was not talking about the economy or work. I too have been pretty busy for the last 2-3 months and future jobs look pretty good considering you all are in a crisis. There was just a month or 2 where everyone kind of froze and did not want to do anything. Now things are swinging around as we do not rely very much on the USA., I am talking about no one in my area charges day fees and then adds a huge list of rental equipment like many do in other countries. Specially in New York.
My prices are above standard rates where I live, But I do not charge in my Budgets.. Item #5 ... Digital Back $$$$. The client knows my work and expects me to have professional equipment.
The problem is that since I have acquired a MFDB my prices have not gone up, which the client would not pay for anyways. They figure it is my option to shoot with a 2500.00 5DII a 7,000.00 1DsMIII or a 14,000.00 DB or a 40,000.00 DB.
That was my point.
I go up against other photographers who have invested also alot and others who have not. We charge more or less what the market dictates...
I do a lot of my own productions and try an filter in stuff here and there, but people here lose jobs of 10K-20k for 200.00. That is just the way it is where I live and I am sure in many areas.
Yeh if you Mario Testino or Annie Leibowitz I am sure you can charge what ever the hell you want... And then end up bankrupt anyways...:+}
Hope that is clearer for many.
Snook
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I think EPd is some 13 year little kid who just seems to talk OHA .
No cell phone and No website and No time must get him tons of work...:+}
I know it is the Tea.
Glad I wasn't the only one thinking this, lol
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Hi,
There has been plenty of CCD cameras with live view, almost all point and shoots to begin with. So live view is certainly doable on CCD technology, it may be unpractical with large CCDs, however. Regarding color, CCD is a a semiconductor technology so it cannot have a lot to do with color, which is dependent on the color filter grid array deposited on the sensor. It's well possible that CCD vendors opt for CFGAs with better color characteristics and forsaking some sensivity (because of high absorption of certain spectral colors) and therefore can achieve better color.
IMHO one of the advantages of MFDBs is that they can be deployed on different cameras. In many of those applications a functional live view would be most helpful.
Just as a side issue, I'm mighty impressed by the kind of computing power built in todays DSLRs, opening a raw file in lightroom may take 5 seconds or so, using my Intel iMac with its 2.16 GHz core duo, the Sony A900 generates JPEGs at 5 frames/s using a feeble lithium/ion battery, so it's like 20 times faster than the Core 2 duo while only using a small fraction of the power.
Best regards
Erik
CMOS is only needed for features like Live View. If you are okay without, no problem, the better colours of CCD is preferable. Rather than ASICs, FPGAs should be fine, and are in some ways even prefererable too.
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I may be missing something but if the clients couldn't care less or see the difference, why was the decision to invest economically viable in the first place for so many of you stating the above?
I'm not a commercial photographer, I'm a wedding shooter. The very top guy in my particular market put away his 'blads and 120 film when the 10D came out, he said the clients couldn't tell the difference so why should he bother. Same reason I see no push to upgrade from my 5D's, They can't see any difference so - as a business - I don't need more. Is it that much different in the commercial world? I understand certain applications require things which DSLR's cannot do, but for the rest, if there is no client demand nor market to sell the fact you are using specific equipment then why? Seems to be far too much 'but I can see X' or 'it's important to me' on this board, I'm sure that any business plan based on those sentiments would be laughed out of the banks loan department...
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Hi,
There has been plenty of CCD cameras with live view, almost all point and shoots to begin with. So live view is certainly doable on CCD technology, it may be unpractical with large CCDs, however.
Hi Erik please note that Point & Shoot cameras use Interline CCD technology which is different to Full-Frame technology used in digital backs. Interline CCDs were originally created for video cameras whereas Full-Frame CCDs were made for stills imaging.
Thanks
Yair
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CMOS sensors have in board circuitry for noise treatment, etc. Power consumption of a system based on a CMOS sensor and ASIC electronics may be much lower. Retroilluminated CMOS sensors place the circuitry at the back of the chip, and the total surface for light collecting is much larger.
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In 2007 I was so close to going over to MF I did not make the leap, a month or two ago I started the process again. The thing is I just ask myself "who am I doing this for, me or the client" it's always me I would not earn a penny more from shooting MF, no one has ever complained about the Canon images (other than me), I like MF for many reasons. For me the cost just does not stack up, I would be stroking my own ego if I bought a MF system.
In fact of late looking around the Olympus system has some fantastic lenses, sharp and fast, 12mp corner to corner sharp is more use to me than 16mp/22mp fuzzy. When do I or my clients need 30mp or more of MF? very seldom and when they do I have upsized without a hint of complaint.
Sure MF delivers better files, I do wonder how many clients know, bother or care that they are better, with the money in the world as tight as it is less and less ends up in print and more is done on the net. Give it a year or two and I'll only need a decent camera on my mobile phone.
Kevin.
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Kevin, maybe there was a divergence in prices and a convergence in results (the final file) with this digital era... 35mm digital seems to be much better than 35mm color film used to be...
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In 2007 I was so close to going over to MF I did not make the leap, a month or two ago I started the process again. The thing is I just ask myself "who am I doing this for, me or the client" it's always me I would not earn a penny more from shooting MF, no one has ever complained about the Canon images (other than me), I like MF for many reasons. For me the cost just does not stack up, I would be stroking my own ego if I bought a MF system.
In fact of late looking around the Olympus system has some fantastic lenses, sharp and fast, 12mp corner to corner sharp is more use to me than 16mp/22mp fuzzy. When do I or my clients need 30mp or more of MF? very seldom and when they do I have upsized without a hint of complaint.
Sure MF delivers better files, I do wonder how many clients know, bother or care that they are better, with the money in the world as tight as it is less and less ends up in print and more is done on the net. Give it a year or two and I'll only need a decent camera on my mobile phone.
Kevin.
Well I rather spend $20.000 on a MFDB because I love the result, even if the customers dont see it,
than spend the same amount on a fancy car.
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You should try coming to Ireland where over 40% of architects are now unemployed. I work as an architectural and landscape photographer and I work for architects and I have to cook all the time for my girlfriend cos she's a crap cook and I value my intestine too much. All I can say is thank God I'm juggling a lot of balls. Not good for my sanity though.
I think EPd is some 13 year little kid who just seems to talk OHA .
No cell phone and No website and No time must get him tons of work...:+}
I know it is the Tea.
And I was not talking about the economy or work. I too have been pretty busy for the last 2-3 months and future jobs look pretty good considering you all are in a crisis. There was just a month or 2 where everyone kind of froze and did not want to do anything. Now things are swinging around as we do not rely very much on the USA., I am talking about no one in my area charges day fees and then adds a huge list of rental equipment like many do in other countries. Specially in New York.
My prices are above standard rates where I live, But I do not charge in my Budgets.. Item #5 ... Digital Back $$$$. The client knows my work and expects me to have professional equipment.
The problem is that since I have acquired a MFDB my prices have not gone up, which the client would not pay for anyways. They figure it is my option to shoot with a 2500.00 5DII a 7,000.00 1DsMIII or a 14,000.00 DB or a 40,000.00 DB.
That was my point.
I go up against other photographers who have invested also alot and others who have not. We charge more or less what the market dictates...
I do a lot of my own productions and try an filter in stuff here and there, but people here lose jobs of 10K-20k for 200.00. That is just the way it is where I live and I am sure in many areas.
Yeh if you Mario Testino or Annie Leibowitz I am sure you can charge what ever the hell you want... And then end up bankrupt anyways...:+}
Hope that is clearer for many.
Snook
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I certainly didnt mean to derail the OP here by starting another pointless debate about DSLR vs medium format so lets put this one to bed right here and get back on track. I have mfdb and use them. There are certain subjects that I prefer shooting with square format and MF also allows me to do things with the glass that as of YET I cant replicate with DSLR so there are very valid creative advantages. The entire point was to suggest that the creative ability is what matters most nowadays not the camera equipment used and not so much the MP size of your system. Besides since when does size matter anyways?....
Depreciation is a fact of life for any equipment whether it be resale value or lifespan ( as in it just wears out ). I buy whatever tools are nec for whatever job that requires them. I often find some internal debate about gear and I'm fairly active in acquiring and selling of it depending on the campaigns and clients I feel will offer the most volume of work each year. I try to stay as lean and mean as I can to avoid having valuable gear sit and collect dust depreciating away but its not easy and Andre I completely understand your frustration.
I suppose all in all financially speaking everyone gets their neck stuck out at certain times further than they want it to be, and combine that timing with a market downturn such as now and it can lead to imminent disaster such as Liebovitz that one still has me guffawed. Goes to show its not what you make its what you spend. As for market timing? Haha yeah... Clearly no one really has a clue about when that goes awry or not. Unless you believe that Obama conspiracy movie. Well produced and certainly entertaining to watch but its Looooong heres a link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw)
Anyways back on point theres no guarantees on anything these days heck even GM is looking like they are going to file for protection. My philosophy? Why worry? No one gets out of this game alive
Tea? Wheres my Pyrenees Ridge Reserve Shiraz?
Cheers fellas.
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I recently spent a lot (although a lot less than I could have) after bargaining down a dealer on a refurb P45. Altogether with a Phase Camera Kit it was less than twice what a Nikon D3X or Canon 1DsMkIII costs (which I sold for 1/2 what I bought it for one year after purchase). In the three years since I moved from LF to digital, I have lost a lot of $ on depreciation and finding out I personally can't use the Canon system worth a damn. Here are a few thoughts I have from the experience:
Medium Formal is probably worth it if you:
1-Are rich or make money hand over fist- buy new and enjoy!
2-If not rich or super lucrative, buy used or refurb, and don't be shy about the haggle. These dealers would rather sell an old back then wait for the next whale to walk through the door.
4-Want flexibility of use: like say by using a viewcamera, or a "plate" camera, or a homemade thing you machined in your garage.
5-Want your CAMERA to have shelf life beyond your sensor, and not just your lenses. I am actually pretty happy with the Phamiya and Mamiya glass, and imagine upgrading the back before the camera.
6-Like to take your time (or can afford to take your time) on jobs or making pictures in general. You can take Canon with a wide autofocus on the most demanding Architecture job, shoot a bazillion frames from all angles, and make passable work after having your assistant spend the weekend stitching and HDRing countless files. Or you can take a MFDB and a shifting camera, take twice the time and a tenth of the exposures, and have everything almost finished in camera, and totally finished in Capture One by the end of the day. Also you are more likely to get that beautifully simple easy-to-overlook shot.
7- If you Print big. Period. Ive spent a lot of time trying to make a triple stitch from a 21MP 35mm camera look like a clean LF exposure, and it just aint the same thing. It is different and easier and maybe better. But not the same thing. My outdated (and very ISO limited) P45 39Mp sensor just draws an image with a clarity that I havent seen with a Canon or Nikon.
8- Can't Stand the 2:3 ratio and wonder who the hell ever came up with it. Very simply, I don't make prints in a 2:3 ratio, therefore with the Canon I either had to crop or stitch. This is a particular and nitpicky bugaboo, but hey, we've all got problems.
Do not go MFDB if:
1-You want lowlight capability, at least until the P65+ comes down to a reasonable price point. But by then Canons and Sonys and Nikons will be able to shoot in pitch black and see through walls, so you still dont want to mess with the finicky DBs.
2-Size Doesnt Matter. Of the print, I mean.
3-You want speed, and the ability to get that impossible-to-catch shot. I pity the sports photographer that ever brings a Phase kit to shoot a tennis match. Or to his kids soccer game.
4-You are cheap. I'm actually pretty cheap. But I needed what the DB could give me, and didnt need the good stuff from Canon. However, the Canons of this world will ALWAYS have some hi-end product that will give ya a little more for your buck then Hassy Leaf or Phase are willing to give, pound for pound. Its simple economics and the higher competition & volume in the larger 35mm DSLR world.
These are just my opinions after giving Mr. B and Mr. H way too much of my money. Hope it helps.
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Yair,
Thanks for good explanation!
Erik
Hi Erik please note that Point & Shoot cameras use Interline CCD technology which is different to Full-Frame technology used in digital backs. Interline CCDs were originally created for video cameras whereas Full-Frame CCDs were made for stills imaging.
Thanks
Yair
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i did not get into DMF because it was cool or i needed to spend a lot of money....i simply wanted a certain level of quality in my files and in my work....i just did not like what i saw from anything else.....
i got out of DMF when i got that quality from DSLR and really appreciate the handling....
another thing was the price i would have had to pay to upgrade from a P30 to a P30+...that was when they just lost me....
i guess it would be the same as trying to raise your fee shot by shot and wondering why one day nobody calls anymore....
you cannot have this discussion with comparing DSLR to DMF....because it just isn't the case that all people are blind all of a sudden, or that people don't want to spend money anymore or that i (or my clients) don't know what a good file is....
it comes down to the fact that if today's DSLRs would have been available 2 years ago, a lot of people would never have gotten into DMF in the first place....a 5DII would have sold like crazy for 7000 2 years ago....but of course that is a mute point....
everybody who bought a DMF knew why they bought it...for the quality and because there was no other solution....now it has changed....
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I recently spent a lot (although a lot less than I could have) after bargaining down a dealer on a refurb P45. Altogether with a Phase Camera Kit it was less than twice what a Nikon D3X or Canon 1DsMkIII costs (which I sold for 1/2 what I bought it for one year after purchase). In the three years since I moved from LF to digital, I have lost a lot of $ on depreciation and finding out I personally can't use the Canon system worth a damn. Here are a few thoughts I have from the experience:
Medium Formal is probably worth it if you:
1-Are rich or make money hand over fist- buy new and enjoy!
2-If not rich or super lucrative, buy used or refurb, and don't be shy about the haggle. These dealers would rather sell an old back then wait for the next whale to walk through the door.
4-Want flexibility of use: like say by using a viewcamera, or a "plate" camera, or a homemade thing you machined in your garage.
5-Want your CAMERA to have shelf life beyond your sensor, and not just your lenses. I am actually pretty happy with the Phamiya and Mamiya glass, and imagine upgrading the back before the camera.
6-Like to take your time (or can afford to take your time) on jobs or making pictures in general. You can take Canon with a wide autofocus on the most demanding Architecture job, shoot a bazillion frames from all angles, and make passable work after having your assistant spend the weekend stitching and HDRing countless files. Or you can take a MFDB and a shifting camera, take twice the time and a tenth of the exposures, and have everything almost finished in camera, and totally finished in Capture One by the end of the day. Also you are more likely to get that beautifully simple easy-to-overlook shot.
7- If you Print big. Period. Ive spent a lot of time trying to make a triple stitch from a 21MP 35mm camera look like a clean LF exposure, and it just aint the same thing. It is different and easier and maybe better. But not the same thing. My outdated (and very ISO limited) P45 39Mp sensor just draws an image with a clarity that I havent seen with a Canon or Nikon.
8- Can't Stand the 2:3 ratio and wonder who the hell ever came up with it. Very simply, I don't make prints in a 2:3 ratio, therefore with the Canon I either had to crop or stitch. This is a particular and nitpicky bugaboo, but hey, we've all got problems.
Do not go MFDB if:
1-You want lowlight capability, at least until the P65+ comes down to a reasonable price point. But by then Canons and Sonys and Nikons will be able to shoot in pitch black and see through walls, so you still dont want to mess with the finicky DBs.
2-Size Doesnt Matter. Of the print, I mean.
3-You want speed, and the ability to get that impossible-to-catch shot. I pity the sports photographer that ever brings a Phase kit to shoot a tennis match. Or to his kids soccer game.
4-You are cheap. I'm actually pretty cheap. But I needed what the DB could give me, and didnt need the good stuff from Canon. However, the Canons of this world will ALWAYS have some hi-end product that will give ya a little more for your buck then Hassy Leaf or Phase are willing to give, pound for pound. Its simple economics and the higher competition & volume in the larger 35mm DSLR world.
These are just my opinions after giving Mr. B and Mr. H way too much of my money. Hope it helps.
I second all what this guy says. And I like the humor too.
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It should be made clear once and for all that madame Liebowitz is tight with money because she received in heritage so much real estate from her now defunct partner, on the order of several tenth of million dollars, that she did not have enough cash to pay succession taxes.
Since now it is not a good time to sell, she is hanging in there and she is juggling big and heavy balls.
I bet you all would like to have madame Liebovitz financial problems.
http://www.afterellen.com/blog/juliamirand...itz-is-in-a-jam (http://www.afterellen.com/blog/juliamiranda/annie-leibovitz-is-in-a-jam)
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Well I rather spend $20.000 on a MFDB because I love the result, even if the customers dont see it,
than spend the same amount on a fancy car.
with 20 grands we do not get anything fancy to drive.
unless is preowned....
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...Where I am you don't need the tools of impression.
Where, per chance, are you?
Hey... not knockin' you... just don't know anything about who you are, what you are, where you are, etc... annonymous screen name, no cell phone, no website (at least in the profile). Hell... I might just be Annie L for all you know. Or a 13 year-old who wants to raise your ire.
Nah, really... I like what you write and say. It just doesn't line up with reality where I am (physically).
Enough of my OT.
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with 20 grands we do not get anything even decent to drive
Fixed it for you...
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I am happy that you guys have so much fun over me. You make me feel a lot more unique than I ever thought of myself. Thinking outside the box doesn't seem to be given to everyone. When I read back what I wrote I find it very refreshing to realize that I actually did describe real facts of my life and that I even left out the probably most unbelievable. Those who have followed me for some time know that I like to be pretty accurate with my facts. This is no different with what I tell about my way of living. There are societies where machismo is not important to get a job at all. Dustbak will agree. Where I am you don't need the tools of impression. The only thing my clients are interested in is the quality of the entire process (including the final product) that I offer them. In the end this will not be much different from what you all will have to offer to your clients. I just stripped the crapola from it and my clients love me for that. This, I think, is what makes me an unusually priviliged person. Thank you for reminding me of that.
I do understand where you are coming from and having been in a hectic situation like some of you as well, I also know how that feels. Having no car or cell phone might seem crazy to most of you. Sometimes I feel like I might be the only fool in the Netherlands that has no cell. I was one of the first in the mid '80's that had one (remember those Motorola bricks with the even larger battery packs ?). In the late 90's I was as hectic as some of you though not as a photographer. During the crash of 2000 I went all but bankrupt, what followed was a period in which I traveled with no belongings around the North Atlantic (mainly Caribean) making a living as a diving instructor/handyman/photographer/computer expert/anything that needs to be done on or around boats man. During this period I learned you don't need much to be happy and that a lot of assets also mean a lot of worries. I went back to the Netherlands when I got my son and picked up working as a photographer. Today I still have few belongings which means I don't live in a virtual golden cage. Today I rent a car (greenwheels) when I need to which I charge my clients. I have no cell phone but I can be reached and respond to email in my time and always in a timely manner if there is an emergency you should call 112 (911) not me.
I do well as a photographer because I have my clients interests in mind without forgetting my own. I can pick my clients not so much because they are standing in line for me but because I don't need to make a lot of money to uphold an expensive entourage (I will also never again hire 1 employee in my life). I can even send clients to others because I feel they can do a better job than I do. In my experience it is not so much the cars or cell phones but the attitude and commitment you have towards your clients together with the results you provide that counts in the end.
This is in short (real short) what happened to me in the last 10years.
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FYI - I have a friend who is a successful corporate attorney, with major clients. If he has a cel phone, it is hidden well. They live in a major city (Chicago) with no car, and their house has no doorbell.
He takes long fishing trips to obscure places (N. Canada, Wyoming, N. Zealand), and responds to email fairly regularly.
There is, believe it or not, room for alternative models. Not everyone has to be on call all the time....
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FYI - I have a friend who is a successful corporate attorney, with major clients. If he has a cel phone, it is hidden well. They live in a major city (Chicago) with no car, and their house has no doorbell.
He takes long fishing trips to obscure places (N. Canada, Wyoming, N. Zealand), and responds to email fairly regularly.
There is, believe it or not, room for alternative models. Not everyone has to be on call all the time....
I forgot My house doesn't have a doorbell either
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I forgot My house doesn't have a doorbell either
Hey Epd and Dustbak,
You two guys are an inspiration, good luck to you. Just goes to show we don't all have to follow like sheep......
Keep it up !
Pete
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when i grow up i wanna be like Dustbak ...
... I learned you don't need much to be happy and that a lot of assets also mean a lot of worries. ...
... Today I still have few belongings which means I don't live in a virtual golden cage. Today I rent a car (greenwheels) when I need to which I charge my clients. I have no cell phone but I can be reached and respond to email in my time and always in a timely manner if there is an emergency you should call 112 (911) not me.
I do well as a photographer because I have my clients interests in mind without forgetting my own. I can pick my clients not so much because they are standing in line for me but because I don't need to make a lot of money to uphold an expensive entourage (I will also never again hire 1 employee in my life). I can even send clients to others because I feel they can do a better job than I do. In my experience it is not so much the cars or cell phones but the attitude and commitment you have towards your clients together with the results you provide that counts in the end.
This is in short (real short) what happened to me in the last 10years.
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I am curious why so many pros talk about using 5D2s, but I barely ever hear anyone talking about the Sony A900. Is there some reason why it is unsuited, or is it just the momentum of existing equipment carrying over into the next generation?
I just got an a900 as a sort of payment in kind that I was not supposed to resist- not knowing what to do with it (other than flogging it off at half price which is something i am not supposed to be doing)- i ended up buying a 50mm (which the clients would be very happy about) for it to do some basic simple travel and portrait stuff. Will let you know how it works out if i ever put it to a real work situation.
As for the original post about the economic returns of a camera- I feel you, man. Just that my losses are not so great.
Got suckered into a medium format back for sure (clientele and peer pressure?).
With that money I could've bought my studio a couple of full frame 35mm based digital bodies (Canon or Nikon- I already ave lenses for both systems) plus a couple of new computers and printers also or a new lighting battery pack, with cash to spare for a quick holiday somewhere (not too exotic).
Are we photographers simply cra p businessmen?
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Financial marked being the way it is and my wife inspiration made us sit down and look at hard numbers that we had spend on digital equipment ( mostly MFD ) in the past 5 years and compare one year depreciation on each investment from the point of purchase to the point of sale or upgrade. Andre
Thank you for sharing Andre!
I don't know if you saw my recent post on the cost of owning/using 35mm digital, somewjhat along the same lines. Annual depreciation, etc.
Take heart in this though: if you had kept that money instead of purchasing, and had put it in stocks or other investments, you would probably be in **exactly the same** position today after the recent economic meltdown! So at least you had fun using the equipment!
In the 90's I bought some real estate, fixed up the properties, sold them, made some money. Then I put all of the proceeds in the stock market. I also invested something like $1,000 a month, invested in my 401K, etc.
With the recent market decline to the same price as 1997 levels, I figure I have **never** made a single dollar in the stock market, or from any of my other investmements - like the real estate. I started investing around 1992 or so.
Cheer up, we are still alive, still here, still have a chance to make a go of things (unless you live in Iceland. )
Lots of people radically changing their expectations and their lifestyles with this huge economic crisis. Just let it all go and move on ...
Best,
Michael
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Michal,
Thank you for sharing as well. Tell me about real estate! I am 100% invested in commercial properties and on top of it in foreign currency. As I said in previous topic, the week when Calumet dropped their AFI's on market and I realized that I paid 20K extra was consider good week now days.
However you are right, we are still alive. Besides the money lost is mostly money on paper reflecting gross/net assets, since you loose much less ( hopefully ) if you hold to it - as long as you can make payments. Matter of fact I am in the buyers market and the opportunities on foreclosures in USA are just amazing. I am counting on turn around in the next 18 months since that is how long I can last.
Andre
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My view of real estate investing is akin to playing Musical Chairs. It's all about timing.