Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: mcfoto on April 04, 2009, 12:03:52 am
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Have not seen any news on Franke & Heidecke in the past few weeks?
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Have not seen any news on Franke & Heidecke in the past few weeks?
"No news is good news"? Or at least that's what Onick at Rollei NJ Service said.....
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"No news is good news"? Or at least that's what Onick at Rollei NJ Service said.....
As far as I understand F&H is in business and production.
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http://www.photographyblog.com/news/sinar_in_good_health/ (http://www.photographyblog.com/news/sinar_in_good_health/)
Quote"
Sinar have issued a positive statement following the news that Franke & Heidecke, which manufactures the body for the Hy6 camera system, is insolvent. “We hereby firmly declare that we continue to stand by our renowned Service for all the products of our company. We are convinced to fulfill all our commitments.” states the press release. Apart from the Hy6, the demise of Franke & Heidecke has absolutely no effect on the core business of Sinar.
Sinar Press Release
The news report of the 2nd of March 2009 that announced the fact that the firm of Franke & Heidecke, headquartered in the city of Braunschweig in Germany, has applied for the status of insolvency motivates us to make the following statement:
This information about Franke & Heidecke affects us as Sinar AG with respect to our medium format camera Model Hy6. Beyond that detail, the aforementioned information has absolutely no effect on the core business of Sinar AG and its well established professional, analog and digital view camera solutions for studio-, architectural-, industrial- and landscape photography.
The management of Sinar AG has contacted the insolvency administrators of Franke & Heidecke already. We hereby firmly declare that we continue to stand by our renowned Service for all the products of our company. We are convinced to fulfill all our commitments. We will keep you informed about the ongoing status regarding the firm of Franke & Heidecke.
End Quote
Hi
I love the part:
"Apart from the Hy6, the demise of Franke & Heidecke has absolutely no effect on the core business of Sinar."
This sounds like spin & if you loose the Hy6 I really think it will be game over for Sinar. Who wrote this????
Denis
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Hi
I love the part:
"Apart from the Hy6, the demise of Franke & Heidecke has absolutely no effect on the core business of Sinar."
This sounds like spin & if you loose the Hy6 I really think it will be game over for Sinar. Who wrote this????
Denis
I could be wrong - but I believe that Sinar/Jenoptic own the rights to the Hy6 and used F&H to manufacture the body - given F&H own the Rollie brand and manufacture the Rollie mount lenses that go on the Hy6. Leaf I believe have a contract of manufacture for the AFi body - via Jenoptic/Sinar. There isn't any information I am aware of that points to the hy6 being specifically responsible for F&H issues. It may well be the case that in fact the Hy6 is collateral damage in the situation. What is clear however is that any (eventual?) demise of F&H does not mean that the Hy6/Afi is dead. In fact any eventual demise may lead to the possibility of a better manufacturer (more solvent) taking over.
Therefore I think you may well be mistaken in your belief that it is 'game over' for Sinar.
However - I must admit that my optimistic take is based on the fact that I respect the company and its products very much - all one has to do use any of Sinar's products to feel the same - and that includes the Hy6 and the Rollie mount lenses from various manufacturers in various versions.
If people can put up with the third rate Phamiya body and its performance - I am sure that there is a future for the Hy6/Afi body.
Cheers
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"Apart from the Hy6, the demise of Franke & Heidecke has absolutely no effect on the core business of Sinar."
That Sinar is exposed to this situation via the Hy6 is something that anyone who matters already knows. With this statement, I am certain that Sinar is trying to reassure its customers that there is no hidden effect on Sinar, just the Hy6.
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Hi,
Maybe more good news.
I taught a workshop last week to some german photographers and one is very closely involved with the Franke & Heidecke affair.
He assured me that there will be no problems for the future of for example leaf or sinar (the topic was of course discussed during the workshop when he saw I shot with a leaf back).
I cannot go into depth into the matter because I don't want to say too much, but as it looks now there will be new money and some new companies involved in Franke & Heidecke.
I don't know if it will keep the same name, he could not tell me that but he assured me that in one form or another it would continue.
For me that's a relieve because I really don't like the idea of having to choose only between a closed Hasselblad system or the open Mamiya system that is getting more and more into Phase one hands. With all due respect for phase one by the way, but I'm a Leaf shooter
I think that in the coming weeks there will be more news, all positive as it looks now.
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Probably Leaf more than Sinar would be affected since PhaseOne and Mamiya are getting closer and Leaf is a digital back company.
The news of the death of the AFi/Hy6 system seams to have been exaggerated, but they have to price their systems aggressively, come up with the 35mm soon..-- and probably it would be a goo idea to do a "DX" 28mm--, hire Thyerry again and never paint even one body the way they seam to want to (stick to black please)...
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but they have to price their systems aggressively, come up with the 35mm soon..-- and probably it would be a goo idea to do a "DX" 28mm--, hire Thyerry again and never paint even one body the way they seam to want to (stick to black please)...
I can't disagree with any of that
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Probably Leaf more than Sinar would be affected since PhaseOne and Mamiya are getting closer and Leaf is a digital back company.
The news of the death of the AFi/Hy6 system seams to have been exaggerated, but they have to price their systems aggressively, come up with the 35mm soon..-- and probably it would be a goo idea to do a "DX" 28mm--, hire Thyerry again and never paint even one body the way they seam to want to (stick to black please)...
The painting - IMO - looks much worse on images than it does in reality. Once I received the Hy6 I didnt have any problem with it any more.
Every time I use the Hy6 I really enjoy it. Once you get used to the user interface it is just great for my taste. I like the grip showing the exposure information, I like the switches, I love the viewfinder, and I love the rotating back. I also like to have internal fast memory in my Sinar back. (I dont like the display of the back, worst part of all!!!)
The pricing of backs and Hy6 body is totally fine IMO, you can find very good prices.
The problem are the lenses, which are quite expensive.
Rather than a 35 I would like to see a 45 TC lens.
Cheers, Tom
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Tom,
you will never see a 45 PC lens for the Hy6.
Why not get a 55 PCS?
Awesome lens,I had one with my kit.
Blows the 40 out of the water!
Best,
Willem.
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Tom,
you will never see a 45 PC lens for the Hy6.
Why not get a 55 PCS?
Awesome lens,I had one with my kit.
Blows the 40 out of the water!
Best,
Willem.
I am not sure if I find 55 wide enough.
In the end I am also undecided if I should not rather "invest" in a camera with movements.
But as long as I am undecided I am not willing to spend further large amounts of money.
Willem, how big is the 55, how did you find the handling?
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Blows the 40 out of the water!
Hi Willem, which 40 are you comparing it to, and what did you mean by 'blows it out of the water'? Usefulness of the T/S? Resolution? Something else?
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Hi Willem, which 40 are you comparing it to, and what did you mean by 'blows it out of the water'? Usefulness of the T/S? Resolution? Something else?
I find the Schneider 40mm to be excellent and the 55mm equally good.
I've got no idea what the Zeiss 40mm is like however...
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I find the Schneider 40mm to be excellent
Exactly, I can't imagine anything being significantly better.
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The system being 6x6 is good for larger sensors, rotating back etc. but they have to also admit that there is and will probable be a big --or the overwhelming majority-- of backs with 6x4.5 /or close to-- size. There is a small number of photographers that will never ever need a 35mm or 28mm, but, again, overwhelming majority do.
So the solution would be to produce a series of lenses that would be formulated to throw an image circle sufficient to cover 6x4.5. This lenses could be wider and faster. Also cheaper and easier to bring to market.
This way you could continue to use your 6x6 classic lenses and get some PC tilt/shift options with the smaller image circle available. Huge amounts of pixels can be placed on a 6x4.5 sensor size and price seams to be set according to sensor size, not total Mega Pixel count, so the larger sizes will always be comparatively more expensive to produce...
Exactly, I can't imagine anything being significantly better.
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The system being 6x6 is good for larger sensors, rotating back etc. but they have to also admit that there is and will probable be a big --or the overwhelming majority-- of backs with 6x4.5 /or close to-- size. There is a small number of photographers that will never ever need a 35mm or 28mm, but, again, overwhelming majority do.
So the solution would be to produce a series of lenses that would be formulated to throw an image circle sufficient to cover 6x4.5. This lenses could be wider and faster. Also cheaper and easier to bring to market.
This way you could continue to use your 6x6 classic lenses and get some PC tilt/shift options with the smaller image circle available. Huge amounts of pixels can be placed on a 6x4.5 sensor size and price seams to be set according to sensor size, not total Mega Pixel count, so the larger sizes will always be comparatively more expensive to produce...
I agree, the camera only needs an image circle large enough to cover 645 in vertical and horizontal to keep the rotating back functionality. If there is a Hy6 MkII, it should be a little smaller to take this into account, and then they can introduce slightly smaller and cheaper lenses, as you say, without having to cover the full 6x6 (which is commercially-speaking a dead end). The existing lenses can be supported that way, but a new wide angle (and everything else) should be easier to produce.
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So the solution would be to produce a series of lenses that would be formulated to throw an image circle sufficient to cover 6x4.5. This lenses could be wider and faster. Also cheaper and easier to bring to market.
That would make sense, especially if I am right in predicting that all MF sensors will be designed to fit the far more widely used 645 format. Even the new Leaf/Dalsa "True Wide" sensor of the Afi-II 10 and Aptus-II 10 backs, fits the 645 frame at 56x36mm, and is available for various 645 bodies.
One catch is that the longer registration distance and deeper mirror (about 56mm vs 42mm) of the Hy6 forces the use of more severely retro-focal designs for short focal lengths.
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One catch is that the longer registration distance and deeper mirror (about 56mm vs 42mm) of the Hy6 forces the use of more severely retro-focal designs for short focal lengths.
Exactly
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I wonder why everybody is so negative that it will be possible to produce a 6x6 sensor for acceptable money not too far away from today.
Another thing I wonder: with the large image circle of 6x6 lense->wouldnt it be possible to develop a T/S unit for those lenses when you use them with a smaller sensor?
The lenses for the Hy6 just allow a larger sensor, as the phase and Hassy allow a larger sensor than the Leica S2, and the S2 larger as the 35mm DSLRs.
I allways talked myself that I dont need "full frame" DSLR and now I am selling my dx lenses.
It would be nice though to have the option of a 28mm-"dx"-Rollei lens.
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I am not sure that the savings from going from 79.2mm (6x6, or 56x56mm diagonal) to 70mm (645, i.e. 56x42mm) makes enough of a difference in either size or price to be worth the risk of not being able to cover the 6x6 sensor, if it comes one day. Maybe just for the very widest lens.
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I'd rather see a 6x6 sensor than another me too 645 camera. The Rollei/schneider lenses are excellent why not use them rather than invent a replacement? IMHO Franke and Heidecke only need to keep making what they are now or have planned. But if they wanted to improve something - how about selectable focus points? And I don't care what the back makers do in terms of size or format if they could just figure out how to give us better high ISO performance.
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Square format was developed for the Rolleiflex tween lens reflexes so to use the waist level finder, but it is not the most efficient format. Let me make clear that it is an attractive format, I shot with the Mamiya 6x6, Bronica 6x6 and now I got a Hasselblad 500 C/M from eBay to shoot with film (full frame !).
Mamiya was gaining grownd in the days before digita, with the 6x7 format because most applications have this proportions. Hasselblad used to say that the square format was the best in the world, but now that they went 645, as you say: "me too 645" they are quiet about the topic.
A square format at a premium price would have a much more reduced market potential than the now standard rectangular sensor, but I may be wrong...
I'd rather see a 6x6 sensor than another me too 645 camera. The Rollei/schneider lenses are excellent why not use them rather than invent a replacement? IMHO Franke and Heidecke only need to keep making what they are now or have planned. But if they wanted to improve something - how about selectable focus points? And I don't care what the back makers do in terms of size or format if they could just figure out how to give us better high ISO performance.
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I have to admit that I was a bit harsh on the Schneider 40mm.
However,I did find the Schneider 55 PCS to be sharper and less barrel distortion.
Also less CA.
The 55PCS is huge and weighs in at 1.6 KG,if I can remember.
Best,
Willem.
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I have to admit that I was a bit harsh on the Schneider 40mm.
However,I did find the Schneider 55 PCS to be sharper and less barrel distortion.
Also less CA.
The 55PCS is huge and weighs in at 1.6 KG,if I can remember.
Best,
Willem.
It is a lot bigger than either of the 40's that's for sure.... But what a nice lens!
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It is a lot bigger than either of the 40's that's for sure.... But what a nice lens!
Curiously, the Schneider 40 is smaller than the Schneider 60, and almost the same size as the 80. How they did it remains a mystery.
The Zeiss 40 is (I think) still modelled on the older Hassy version and rather sizable.
the 55PCS won't work well for handholding, but for tripod work is a far better lens than one might first imagine. I haven't found any CA, barrel distortion, dropoff in corners, etc. Routinely run it right up to max shift, no problems.
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Curiously, the Schneider 40 is smaller than the Schneider 60, and almost the same size as the 80. How they did it remains a mystery.
The Zeiss 40 is (I think) still modelled on the older Hassy version and rather sizable.
the 55PCS won't work well for handholding, but for tripod work is a far better lens than one might first imagine. I haven't found any CA, barrel distortion, dropoff in corners, etc. Routinely run it right up to max shift, no problems.
Yes the 55mm PCS works great for hand holding - I do it all the time!
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Yes the 55mm PCS works great for hand holding - I do it all the time!
Me too!
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Any news or updates?
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None, so far, but many discussions going on.
Thierry
Any news or updates?
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by the time there ARE news Nikon and Canon will have taken over MF. News seam to come mostly from them even in this forum lately...
None, so far, but many discussions going on.
Thierry
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by the time there ARE news Nikon and Canon will have taken over MF. News seam to come mostly from them even in this forum lately...
Leonardo,
Don't you shoot Mamiya? I don't get why you put so much time into the Rollei/Franke&Heidecke threads. Are you not satisfied with your set-up? or do you have stock in Nikon or Canon?
I shoot with now three older Rollei's ... 2 6008 AF cameras and one 2.8F TLR and couldn't be happier. If F&H did anything wrong, they made their cameras too good - and too reliable. Nothing wrong with the older stuff - I've had no reason to upgrade to the Hy6/AFi.
Eric
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I have purchased recently something from them and it worked out without any problems. Quick respond.
If we talk about news - maybe its not everybodies taste - but as far as I see it the Hy6 is still the neweset/latest MF camera body overall (until the S2 appears)?
What I would wish for is a 6x6 sensor- but this should not be the task for F&H but for Dalsa and Kodak.
Personally I would be more concerned of the long time future of Leica but not so much of F&H (they have a good product range and covered that part allready).
I admit that I am a fan of both though.
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I shoot Nikon, Mamiya, Sinar and Hasselblad, but who knows, I may one day shoot Franke&Heidecke. Is this an exclusive thread for owners of one particular brand and only that?
I am curious about the news. It was Thierry who said there was 'no news', so I took it as it may be news latter.
Regarding 35mm, no, I don't work for them (Nikon Canon), but I see the trend of MF loosing market share to them.
Also PENTAX and Leica are going with the smallest increment in sensor size to fight them, de facto creating another format, one that fits between Nikon-Canon and full size 645.
Meanwhile Hy6 is waiting for a LARGER size sensor chip.
Leica is a complete newcomer to MF and with decreased market share they will have to take it from someone....
Who will blink or hesitate?
Leonardo,
Don't you shoot Mamiya? I don't get why you put so much time into the Rollei/Franke&Heidecke threads. Are you not satisfied with your set-up? or do you have stock in Nikon or Canon?
I shoot with now three older Rollei's ... 2 6008 AF cameras and one 2.8F TLR and couldn't be happier. If F&H did anything wrong, they made their cameras too good - and too reliable. Nothing wrong with the older stuff - I've had no reason to upgrade to the Hy6/AFi.
Eric
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I shoot Nikon, Mamiya, Sinar and Hasselblad, but who knows, I may one day shoot Franke&Heidecke. Is this an exclusive thread for owners of one particular brand and only that?
I am curious about the news. It was Thierry who said there was 'no news', so I took it as it may be news latter.
Regarding 35mm, no, I don't work for them (Nikon Canon), but I see the trend of MF loosing market share to them.
Also PENTAX and Leica are going with the smallest increment in sensor size to fight them, de facto creating another format, one that fits between Nikon-Canon and full size 645.
Meanwhile Hy6 is waiting for a LARGER size sensor chip.
Leica is a complete newcomer to MF and with decreased market share they will have to take it from someone....
Who will blink or hesitate?
Old paradigm. That game is long over.
New one: quality MF makers struggling to survive. Some may make it, many will not. They make a product out of sorts with our current "instant, disposable, modest priced, here today....gone tomorrow" culture.
Some of us with to encourage that notion of higher quality, longer lasting - others see the flaws in it. THat it is flawed is without question - F&H is undercapitalized, trying to juggle pieces and parts and yet hold to their notions of ergonomic camera design and top quality.
Another way to look at it is how they do so much with so little.
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Personally I think it is hard to judge about the real factors/reasons for the financial situation of a company.
Is it the cost structure. Is it the marketing concept. Is the problem cause only by certain products in the range and others are good to make money.
Is it the wrong bank? All speculation if we dont know the real facts.
The biggest question: can the factors, which caused the problem be changed?
My believe (and speculation) is that the Hy6 system/product range itself is not the reason but other things, and my hope (and speculation) is that these things can be changed.
One day Porsche buys VW and the next day its the other way around.
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let's see
a company announces insolvency
and doesn't bother to update on the situation
as far as I'm concerned the AFi and Hy6 system are a no-go zone.
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let's see
a company announces insolvency
and doesn't bother to update on the situation
How can they give an update when nothing has changed? The company is still operating, and creditors and investors are still talking out a deal, afaik. I'm sure we will hear news when there is some.
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I have just received my Hy6 after the repair at Franke & Heidecke in Germany (I damaged the grip). The turnaround time (From Russia to Germany and back to Russia) took 20 days. Keep in mind that there was Russian Customs in between.
Yevgeny