Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: jing q on April 03, 2009, 02:35:17 am
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I've dissected my Profoto Pro B2 battery a few times to swap batteries and it got me thinking..it is possible to create a lithium polymer battery replacement in the casing? it will take up a lot less space (can pad the excess space inside to reduce jiggles of course) and will be lighter.
I'm not too familiar with how the difference in lead acid voltage (12V) vs lithium polymer pack voltage (11.1v -14.8v?) will affect the performance, or if it's even safe?
I believe hensel already has a lithium polymer solution...I wonder if anyone has taken a look at that?
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There must be a way if Hensel can do it with the Porty.
Also, I'd like to know how you did the battery swap for the 7B, I took one apart and it looked a bit tricky?.
Please reply to stephen@shermanphoto.com if you can
Thanks
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I believe hensel already has a lithium polymer solution...I wonder if anyone has taken a look at that?
Yes they have. I expect that you would need a different charger if you did this. Sorry, can't answer about the safety of a direct replacement.
I'd like to find cheap large Li+ batteries to replace the lead acid batteries which power my pure sinewave inverter.
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Yes they have. I expect that you would need a different charger if you did this. Sorry, can't answer about the safety of a direct replacement.
I'd like to find cheap large Li+ batteries to replace the lead acid batteries which power my pure sinewave inverter.
I don't think you even need a pure sinewave inverter?
what are you powering. I used to use a similar solution, got a lithium polymer solution and my lead acid batteries and inverter's gathering dust now.
yes a different charger definitely...will raise this possibility with someone with more battery experience to explore the possibility
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There must be a way if Hensel can do it with the Porty.
Also, I'd like to know how you did the battery swap for the 7B, I took one apart and it looked a bit tricky?.
Please reply to stephen@shermanphoto.com if you can
Thanks
hi sherman
the 7B battery consists of some sort of circuit board heavily soldered to the contacts of a lead acid battery. you just need to desolder the contacts, replace the battery, resolder. piece of cake. send it to some wiring guy to do the soldering for you, shouldn't cost you more than a few bucks or so for his time.
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the 7B battery consists of some sort of circuit board heavily soldered to the contacts of a lead acid battery. you just need to desolder the contacts, replace the battery, resolder. piece of cake. send it to some wiring guy to do the soldering for you, shouldn't cost you more than a few bucks or so for his time.
So, you're saying you've done this? Are the batteries easy to source? I have a very dead 7b battery collecting dust and I'd love to swap it out if possible.
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So, you're saying you've done this? Are the batteries easy to source? I have a very dead 7b battery collecting dust and I'd love to swap it out if possible.
aha can I buy it from you....*wink*
yes it's easy to swap out. find the right screwdrivers, then desolder, switch, resolder.
the circuit board (or whatever it's called) is quite tightly packed so you need to jiggle it around abit to free it from the casing.
The casing is quite tight also so there is abit of flexing of the casing involved once you've unscrewed everything, to remove the battery
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So, you're saying you've done this? Are the batteries easy to source? I have a very dead 7b battery collecting dust and I'd love to swap it out if possible.
You can absolutely fix your old battery at a far lower cost than purchasing the whole casette with battery, the price difference is huge!
Most professional Profoto dealers have the replacement battery as a special order item, here is a link:
https://www.vistek.ca/store/ProPhotoProfoto...ttery-only.aspx (https://www.vistek.ca/store/ProPhotoProfoto/165185/profoto-battery-12v-for-pro7b-battery-only.aspx)
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Jing - thanks for the info! I pulled a battery apart this morning and have found a source online for replacement batteries for under $60! I've also got an Acute 6b battery that is shot that I'm going to replace.
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Hi All
I come across this post while trying to source these batteries.
I found the exact battery for sale on a german site I have ordered two!
They are made by ctm 14-12 My battery has all the details on it. I see if you by one from teamwork they have the profoto logo on.
aeroakku is the name of the company that sell them I bought two for 104 euro including delivery so a lot cheaper! http://www.aeroakku.com/product_info.php/language/en/info/p125_CTM-CT-14-12.html/XTCsid/
Now I just need to source the bulbs for the heads jd e11 120v 250w if anybody knows to get them cheaper, they sell after market ones at b&H and are around $7 each and good reviews from profoto users! but the shipping is silly money. It is a cheek paying £19 + vat + delivery for bulbs that cost 3-4 £
I hope the battery info helped
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The 7B and AcuteB just use common sealed lead acid batteries. You can buy them at any electronics supply store anywhere in the world. They're commonly used for computer UPS systems. J
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one thing not to forget is the LI accu is much lighter!
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My batteries work great, but I'm trying to lighten the load of the 7B. I had heard too that Lithium batteries were now available. Has anyone here actually purchased one and successfully installed it, and is using it? Thanks.
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I own the b2 with Lithium batteries - working fantastic. 4-6hours of fashion shooting with no problems - still green led. Compared to my "old batteries" - they were down after this time. Therefore I had 2 batteries - just to be safe for the job on location. I know it´s a high price - but a invest for the future. Now it´s time for Profoto to work on the charger plug in - a nightmare. So loose..
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Niels, beware of the green light indicator, as lithium batteries drop from green to almost dead suddenly. ;)
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nice to see this thread,here's what I did a couple of months ago.
I have a couple of Hensel Porty Premiums with the bigger lead acid batteries.
I am in the UK and sourced the same battery only LI+, very inexpensive compared to buying new lighter ones from Hensel.
everything was easy to do and they work fine, my problem however is two fold, hopefully some bright sparks on here can help.
firstly I cannot run these new lighter batteries at full power... it just shuts the whole thing down, anything up to one stop below full power and it's fine.
Second niggle is that I cannot run these batteries on the faster recycle mode, again it just shuts them down, it's not a huge problem as they recycle quicker than the older sealed ones.
I suspect that these batteries are maybe not as powerful as they say on the box so to speak, but any thoughts from fellow readers would be welcome.
S
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Stevebri, I'm having the exact same problem with my Profoto b2/7b packs (I'm in the US by the way). I replaced the sealed lead-acid core with a sealed lithium core and the pack will shut down or quickly drain (much quicker than the actual Profoto lithium battery) on the faster recycle time. The higher power doesn't seem to be as much of an issue. I believe the reason to be the protection circuit module installed inside the sealed lithium battery core. A PCM is installed in every sealed lithium battery core and it regulates the battery to keep it from overcharging, undercharging, and producing too much discharge power. After speaker with the battery company (the company I sourced the lithium batteries from) I found out that the PCM installed in the lithium core I purchased only allows a peak discharge current (the amount of current discharging for less than 2 seconds, some batteries it's 5 seconds) of 36A, while the profoto board that the core is wired to has 40A fuses. If the discharge is greater than 36A the PCM will shut the battery down. The faster recycle time and higher power draw much more current than the lower settings, on an AC pack (such as a profoto 7a pack) it can be the difference of 7-8A between the regular and fast settings (or half-power and full-power) leading me to believe that my pack is drawing somewhere between 37A and 40A at these settings and the PCM is shutting it down. I'm contacting the battery company today to see if they can send me a PCM with a peak discharge of 40A to install on the pack. I'm not sure about the power draw on the Hensel packs because I've never used them, but I believe the problem you are running into is caused by the same issue I have. If you can find out let me know what you find, I'd be interested to hear if it was the same situation. I'll update once I get the new PCM installed.
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I'm contacting the battery company today to see if they can send me a PCM with a peak discharge of 40A to install on the pack.
I'd be surprised if any LI battery manufacturer is going to provide you with the parts to allow their product to be run outside of specs.. Particularly in the U.S..
They regulate the current draw from an LI battery to keep it from overheating.
You may have a read about a rather large airplane (http://www.nbcnews.com/business/faa-grounds-all-boeing-787s-over-safety-concerns-1B7991426) that's been grounded recently because it's LI batteries were wired to run at a higher current draw than they were designed for.
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I contacted them yesterday and explained the whole situation and they're on board, even with me modding their batteries myself.
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Has anyone done this with an acuteb pack? Was hoping to get a lithium battery from the source instead of having to buy the actual Profoto branded lithium battery/cassette new...
Thanks
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I've done the swap with the old battery and it's easy but good luck finding any LiFe replacement cells. Not to mention I wouldn't be surprised if the board in the new cells is different. IMO the new battery is worth every penny.
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Was on location the other morning and round the corner from us in a different cove was a bunch of people doing a music video, they were shooting it with two drone like remote 'copters carrying a red on one and a 5D on the other...
Anyway at lunch their crew were eating just up from my crew and I got chatting to the guys re charging their batteries... To cut a long story short when i showed them the 'before and after' Porty batteries they were impressed and were already trying to see how they could graft them on to their rigs....
The relevant point of the conversation was this:
The reason why our new LiFePO4 Batteries cut out when we try to use full power is because of the C rating, apparently the C rating relates to how much can be drawn 'in one hit' to make it simple. Not sure what mine are but in the UK a good rating is 4.5.
I'm guessing ours are not that high hence the tripping out. Found this thread (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6559) too, it explains it really well.
Also, if you want to sourch these, then google something like LiFePO4 Batteries if you haven't already.
In the UK the batteries cost me £100ea delivered, buying from Hensel including the drawer is £432 plus delivery, so 4 batteries DIY is £400 or 4 new ones from the dealer £1728 plus shipping..
What I did was buy two of the new lighter cells and fitted them myself, in addition I also bought and fitted two conventional cells and fitted them myself, two heavy, two light.
Most jobs don't need full power, fast recycle. When they do I have the two traditional batteries, everyday location shooting I take the two lighter cells, leave the two heavier ones in the car/van/truck and my assistants speak to me again...
S
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I contacted them yesterday and explained the whole situation and they're on board, even with me modding their batteries myself.
Stereo, would you mind detailing the mode??? pour fave!
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Stereo,
I wonder if this particular battery (http://www.ctcbattery.com/LiFePO4-Rechargeable-Battery/CTC-12-8V-13-2Ah-153-6Wh-Lithium-Iron-Phosphate-LiFePO4-Rechargeable-Battery) will work, it says Maximum Discharge Current (Pulse)(5C) is 70.0A. On another site (http://www.mybatteryplace.com/lifepo4/33460-128v-12ah-1536wh-lithium-iron-lifepo4-rechargeable-battery.html) which sells the battery, the description says "Photography: Perfect fit for Profoto Battery in Pro-7B". From the same battery manufacturer there is also a 12.8V 10Ah 128Wh LiFe Battery with a max Discharge of 40.0A.
I'm looking to change the battery myself too, the original Profoto replacement is just too expensive. Let me know what you think.
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that's a great link....I'm surprised you can just put it in an existing casing. I was under the impression that the electronics for the casing would be slightly different to cater for the fact that it's a LiPo battery...esp considering you can't just charge a LiPo battery with a normal DC charger...
well give them a call! If the website says it works with proB, they must have tried it....right?
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I'm not sure if you can just put them in an existing casing, but it seems like a Stereo has at this point done it with limited success.
The main problem seems to be the max discharge current of the PCM board of the LiFe replacements batteries out there. It seems like
the B2 pack draws more power and the existing case is wired to 40A fuses. The batteries I found seems to have a max discharge current of 70A,
but I'm not sure if it really works since it is not something I am familiar with. I spoke with the dealer who sells the LiFe battery, they can't guarantee that it works with Profoto, the specs looks suitable but they have not tried it.
I do have more information of the LiFe battery that Profoto is using. Their battery is made by BMZ, is 13.3V 11.5Ah, made up of ANR26650M1 cells in a 4S5P arrangement.
Hopefully someone with more knowledge on batteries can shed some light eventually.
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Has anyone tried this battery (as linked above?). I've replaced the battery in my 7b previously (soldered a new lead acid version to the Profoto pack), and it appears there is no trick to using this Lithium "iron" (not ion?) battery (http://www.mybatteryplace.com/lifepo4/128v-12ah-1536wh-lithium-iron-lifepo4-rechargeable-battery.html). It says you can charge it with a any SLA (=standard lead acid?) charger?
My concern is with being able to use it at full power, repeatedly. I use the 7b (in addition to other units) for architectural work, and I'm frequently competing with daylight in large rooms with bounce or filtered flash (i.e. full power situations).
Any updates to this topic would be great! Thanks!
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I did something similar with an Elinchrom Ranger, pulled out the stock lead acid battery and replaced it with one of these...
http://store.starkpower.com/12V-12Ah-StarkPower-UltraEnergy-Lithium-Ion-Battery-LiFePO-Energy-Storage-Battery_p_22.html
Worked fine, no issues thus far. I think you might be able to get the one you linked to to work for the Profoto. Some issues I'd recommend looking further into...
Does the battery have some sort of thermal protection shutoff built into it? If you shoot too fast/aggressively, you will heat up the battery since continuous full power pops at 1200 w/s is more than the 25A continuous current draw limit of the battery. You don't want it to go into thermal runaway and catch on fire.
What are the volt/amp specs that it should be charged at, and what are the specs for your charger? You don't want to overvolt the battery when charging, that's another hazard. (I was lucky and the specs for my Elinchrom charger matched the battery specs)
I would expect greater capacity (perhaps 150% increase in shots), but recycle time may not be any faster. In fact it might be a touch slower for the 7B since these batteries can't dump current into a spiked load quite as well as lead acid, and recharging a capacitor is a very non-linear load. (Starts large, falls off exponentially)
Give it a try and let us know how it goes!
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There is a thread regarding this subject over on FM that you may find helpful if you haven't seen it yet.
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1198860/0
-Chad
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This battery lists a 70A maximum discharge current (pulse) (http://www.mybatteryplace.com/lifepo4/128v-12ah-1536wh-lithium-iron-lifepo4-rechargeable-battery.html), which makes me think it's perhaps better suited to the power demands of the 7b, but I'm guessing that regardless one needs to be careful about doing too many full charge pops too close together...
It would seem like all these batteries would sort of have to be the same (relabeled versions of the same box?), but maybe not.
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Sylvino's Pro flash in Hollywood, the Profoto rep for the west coast, can replace a lead acid battery with a lithium battery.
He knows what he's doing, this way you avoid the risk damaging your pack.