Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: clawery on April 02, 2009, 09:53:44 am

Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: clawery on April 02, 2009, 09:53:44 am
Phase One just released Capture One 4.7 today. There are some much anticipated improvements with the new release. Here is a quick list of some of the additions to the new version:

1. Added tethered support (Pro version) for Canon 5D Mk II and Nikon D3X
2. Newly designed file format - (.eip new file extension) allows packaging of Phase One files along with adjustments settings applied to the RAW (with no changes to the original RAW).
3. Support for JPEG and Tiff flies as 'Input' files - v4.7 will allow you to adjust JPEG and TIFFs similar to RAWs.

You can download v4.7 from Phase One's web site:

http://www.phaseone.com/Content/Downloads/CO4.aspx (http://www.phaseone.com/Content/Downloads/CO4.aspx)

Chris Lawery (e-mail Me)
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Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 02, 2009, 09:57:27 am
Quote from: clawery
2. Newly designed file format - (.eip new file extension) allows packaging of Phase One files along with adjustments settings applied to the RAW (with no changes to the original RAW).

So what the heck is EIP? Glad you asked. I wrote a primer up this morning: http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/04/...he-heck-is-eip/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/04/02/so-what-the-heck-is-eip/)

By the way, before anyone complains:
 - it is OPTIONAL
 - it is off by default
 - it is based on the ZIP compression standard; it can be converted to a normal raw file without additional software

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
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Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
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Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: tho_mas on April 02, 2009, 10:13:58 am
Quote from: dougpetersonci
it is based on the ZIP compression standard; it can be converted to a normal raw file without additional software
that's a very good thing!
but the raw-files are renamed. after extracting the "eip" the raw file is named "0.TIF"...

numeric adjustments with arrow keys is also very nice to have now on mac as well.


Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: gwhitf on April 02, 2009, 10:19:00 am
Doug,

With all due respect, any software that's designed to make it easier for photographers to just hand off their RAW files to a client is NOT in the best interest of commercial photography.

Not only does the photographer shirk responsiblity in processing their own files, it also sends another tiny message of subliminal erosion of copyright, (at least in my opinion). It begins to treat the RAW files as a commodity.

There is something valuable in the photographer guarding and being responsible for his own files.

The only comparison I can think of in the old days, (film days), would be for the photographer to not add any CC over the lens, to correct the chrome film, and never bother to do Clip Tests to make sure the film was run properly, but just to hand over the film to the lab and say, "Fuck it, just run it all Normal; the client will retouch what isn't right".

This is just one bit of feedback, in regard to your sentence: "Many photographers are being asked to deliver their clients RAW files. This presents a difficulty because the photographer wants to deliver a file with appropriate adjustments such as color temperature, contrast, saturation, and highlight/shadow recovery."

Obviously, the world is changing, but this seems to be yet one more tiny bit of erosion of Craftsmanship, handed off from a competent photographer, and dumped into the hands of Who Knows What kind of kid, that's handed a Hard Drive, and told "Hey kid, process these files". A kid with no vested interest, and no history or connection to the shoot, whatsoever.

Just one opinion. Not a good sign at all.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Guy Mancuso on April 02, 2009, 10:33:11 am
Well I agree and said so in another post about just handing out Raw files to clients. Not that there not capable of processing and such or someone on your team could actually do a better job than yourself. The whole I idea I don't like to lose  control. I do look at this new feature as actually a benefit when you do have to hand them off at least you can hand them off with some guidance from us the shooter so at least you get something in there that you can at least give some guidance on. These are two separate issue that meet up at the end and totally understand it and why clients or retouchers are asking for files to process them yourself but it is a dicey game for the shooter. Right or wrong on how you deal with your clients is one thing, obviously we all want to work and get paid for doing it. But this is risky in my mind. Now I view this new format as some kind of benefit to the shooter and the client also. So I view the file format as a good thing but on the other end as a risk. Not saying the client is not capable or anything like that but folks your giving out your Raw to the free world and copyright, usage and getting in the wrong hands after you hand them off the risk goes up. I know many are very successful at this with there clients and it works for them but I feel some type of contract needs to be in place to protect you for lose and damage to your files and to your copyrights. But also to protect you from them making a freaking mess out of your file it goes to print and than the blame comes back in your face. After 35 years at this I can see all sorts of issues just protect yourself is my main concern.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: gwhitf on April 02, 2009, 11:00:42 am
Quote from: Guy Mancuso
I do look at this new feature as actually a benefit when you do have to hand them off at least you can hand them off with some guidance from us the shooter so at least you get something in there that you can at least give some guidance on.

To anyone who'd hand off RAW files to a client without a fight, I'd ask "Where is your pride? Where is your Nutsack?" Has it actually come to this? Do you guys not know how to pronounce the word "no"? Do you guys just roll over at anything they'd ask?

I guess I should personally applaud this, because what it's doing is separating the men from the boys. And the boys are the ones that are going to get left in the dust, when their once-valuable photography one day is viewed as simply a commodity that can be interchanged with any other photographer, even an in-house one.

Amazing that people cannot see the big picture here, and that every time you bend over, it's one less arrow in your arsenal.

And I just love how Phase One views this as a "feature" in their new software. As if this is something to be bragged about. "Here we are wanting forty grand for a back, yet at the same time, we're doing whatever we can to pull the rug out from underneath you, business-wise, and to erode your position of power with the client." If they only knew what they were really saying here. If Phase One had any clue whatsoever about the business of photography, and about ensuring that photographers are going to be around in ten years to pay their prices, they'd give every customer a coupon for a membership in APA or EP or ASMP, if they bought a back, so they could get educated enough to protect their business interests. Phase One must think this business is about taking pictures...
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: G_Allen on April 02, 2009, 11:07:28 am
I normally deliver RAWs to my retoucher, that this 'EIP' function will make it easier to do that. I usually send a screen shot showing my suggested settings for processing, which always seemed a bit silly to me.

Also, I don't see what the big fuss is about delivering the RAWs to the client. A lot of my clients are doing the retouching in-house these days (with my input), and saving and delivering as EIPs make a lot of sense for me. I'll save time, and the post-production will be a smoother process for my clients.

I like.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 02, 2009, 11:09:45 am
Quote from: gwhitf
Doug,

With all due respect, any software that's designed to make it easier for photographers to just hand off their RAW files to a client is NOT in the best interest of commercial photography.

Not only does the photographer shirk responsiblity in processing their own files, it also sends another tiny message of subliminal erosion of copyright, (at least in my opinion). It begins to treat the RAW files as a commodity.[...]


Quote from: Guy Mancuso
[...]I do look at this new feature as actually a benefit when you do have to hand them off at least you can hand them off with some guidance from us the shooter so at least you get something in there that you can at least give some guidance on. These are two separate issue that meet up at the end[...]


Easy or not many photographers were already being asked to hand over the raw file and had to do so by providing the raw file "naked" or with some reference JPG or screen grab of settings.

This tool allows you to hand over the raw file but with the adjustments and creative decisions in tact.

If, for personal, artistic, or business reasons, you don't want to provide a raw file as a deliverable then that is part of your Terms and Conditions negotiations with your clients.

Besides, even if you deliver only a processed TIFF the client can still, if it's not against your T&Cs modify it quite a bit as far as white balance, exposure, contrast etc.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Rudy Torres on April 02, 2009, 11:14:42 am
The new eip extension sounds great for archiving. I would never use it to turn over raw files though. I've had several clients ask for raw files and for every one of those clients I have said, "NO". I haven't lost any client because of my policy.  

What I am more disappointed with is the misdirected use of resources developing this new file format, IMO. As I just looked at the release notes, there is no focus tool.
Another update and still no focus tool. Sometimes I wonder who Phase One talks to when coming up with ideas for updates. They certainly can't be talking to Pro shooters.

Going back to the raw thing... simply because Phase One has come up with this new extension doesn't mean you have to turn over raw files. If you don't want to, well then,... don't.

Craftsmanship, Craftsmanship, Craftsmanship
This is what we have to sell. It was that way before digital and still is.
If you don't sell YOU then you're no better off than the guy buying that dslr at the local electronics store and shouting to everyone, "Look, I'm a photographer now."
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: geesbert on April 02, 2009, 11:17:20 am
every DNG i am handing over to my retoucher is a bit more time for me behind the camera, if anyhow possible I always try to give them DNGs, so they are not coming back to me over and over again with things that are hard for me to bill.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 02, 2009, 11:24:09 am
Quote from: Rudy Torres
What I am more disappointed with is the misdirected use of resources developing this new file format, IMO. As I just looked at the release notes, there is no focus tool.
Another update and still no focus tool. Sometimes I wonder who Phase One talks to when coming up with ideas for updates. They certainly can't be talking to Pro shooters.

Specific changes made because of requests by our professional users:
  - default keyboard shortcuts now include +  -  *  used for tagging green, yellow, red to match the convention established in 3.X
  - keyboard arrow "bumps" for any adjustments; you can now use apple-Left, or apple-Right to change between images and change the exposure, contrast etc with up and down
  - allowing JPGs and TIFFs as inputs so that if you're shooting JPG for speed on a Canon tethered you can still make minor adjustments and make web contact sheets using those assets
  - tethered support for the D3X and 5DII
  - exclusion of the rating and color tag from the "copy from primary" next capture adjustments so tagging is not included in incoming images
  - the new EIP format which several PRO photographers have already chimed in as being useful in one way or another to them

These changes have been made since 4.6.3 which was released only three weeks ago. So yes, I think they are talking to pro shooters, and making many changes based on their inputs.

The floating viewer can be set to 100%, and reduced in size so that it matches the functionality of the previous focus tool. The only difference is that it is not docked to the tools. What functionality are you missing?

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Rudy Torres on April 02, 2009, 11:37:10 am
Doug

Don't get me wrong, Phase One makes good stuff. I use Phase One product with confidence.
What I don't get is the obvious "turn of the shoulder" from Phase One when all the shooters I've talked to all say the same thing.
"Bring back the focus tool as it was in 3.x". Google the topic and you'll see what I mean. What I'm I saying, I know Phase One knows this.
I don't have to tell them. Phase One just chooses to ignore it.

Leaf has it!
Aperture has it!
Lightroom has it!
Hell I wonder if even Phocus has it, (never used it), wouldn't surprise me if it did.

Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: bcooter on April 02, 2009, 11:39:13 am
Quote from: dougpetersonci
Specific changes made because of requests by our professional users:
.........................

These changes have been made since 4.6.3 which was released only three weeks ago. So yes, I think they are talking to pro shooters, and making many changes based on their inputs.


What "pro"fessional users are the talking to?   The first thing Phase should do is not release software until it's ready and has the ability to color code or tag selects from the start.

The second thing is change their file format from the .TIF marker to a something like .mos, or cr2, or .nef because when you do a search you know you found a raw file, not a retouched tif file or vice-versa.

The third thing is make the interface as easy as lightroom.

Number 4,  don't cut a deal with Microsoft and put vista development on the back burner.  You may think the world only uses mac's but apple has a lot of issues and are less attractive with every new model and even if they didn't there is a lot of reasons to have a vista machine.


Big
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: csp on April 02, 2009, 11:51:30 am
Quote from: gwhitf
Doug,

With all due respect, any software that's designed to make it easier for photographers to just hand off their RAW files to a client is NOT in the best interest of commercial photography.


so true !
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: bcooter on April 02, 2009, 11:52:00 am
Quote from: gwhitf
"Where is your pride? Where is your Nutsack?" Has it actually come to this? Do you guys not know how to pronounce the word "no"? Do you guys just roll over at anything they'd ask?


The upside to this crapped out economy is "no more excuses".

When Agency groups like omnicom disavow any responsibility for payment, when editorial now pays about a buck fifty for a spread, when "pro"fessional cameras are now selling for the "asking" price of $40,000• (The Lexus brand, not the Toyota brand), when used "pro"fessional cameras that sold for $30,000 last month are now going on ebay for $15,000 this is the time for photographers to  grow some hair and say enough is enough.

I've put every supplier on notice, retouchers, stylists, hair/makeup to do every task, no matter how mundane as if they were working for their portfolio, because in today's world your gonna need it to survive.

The same holds true with clients and art directors.  Everyone is client afraid and wants to drop back to 1992 concepts just to "be safe" and safe is not good enough, safe will eventually get you fired and safe doesn't do anything but hold you as a photographer back, does a disservice to the people that "eventually" pay you and wrecks your brand equity.    I just had a discussion with an AD on a project and I said let's do this for YOUR portfolio because god knows you may be beating the streets in two weeks looking for work.

That doesn't mean you have to be a camera throwing maniac, or not do what a client needs, but it does mean that everyone has to free themselves from fear and perform at the highest level.  Break the mold, do something worth looking at, shoot something that actually makes a viewer either bookmark it or tear the page out of the magazine to save it.  

This also holds true for camera makers.  No more of this "to come" BS.   No more beta testing software version 4point5point2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 hoping it doesn't crash, doesn't trash your files, doesn't loose the settings.  No more lenses to come, no more moire the size of a fist, no more lenses on backorder.  No more political little backroom games of hobbling one brand to sync at 1/400th where the identical body with a different painted on logo goes to 1/800th.  

Word to the medium format makers.  If you want to be around in 2012 make it easy on your customers not harder.  Make your file format universal, make sure your margins are low, your quality is high and you deliver on every promise.  Painting on a new logo doesn't up the price.

If a piece of equipment doesn't come into my door ready to rumble, then it goes back with a big note on the package saying refund due in full.

This forum has all sorts of photoraphers and some work in high pressured commerce, some are shooting trees for fun, but let the camera makers test this stuff on the fun guys, not the commercial guys because the world of photography for commerce just got a whole lot tougher.

Honestly, this is the time to grow some hair and protect your own brand as well as your client's.  If you do great work it will eventually rumble down the hallways as "wow, what a project, but if you turn crap, then you will be the guy that turns crap and never shake that label.

• ($40,000 for a still camera, you've got to be kidding me).


IMO


Big


Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: csp on April 02, 2009, 11:59:54 am
Quote from: geesbert
every DNG i am handing over to my retoucher is a bit more time for me behind the camera, if anyhow possible I always try to give them DNGs, so they are not coming back to me over and over again with things that are hard for me to bill.


why don't you just simply deliver a large maybe upsized 16bit tiff file instead.  what is the benefit of DNG you only give them the chance to fuck up your work.   DNG is is like konica film in the past.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 02, 2009, 12:03:35 pm
Quote from: bcooter
The first thing Phase should do is not release software until it's ready and has the ability to color code or tag selects from the start.

Color Coding and Tagging was there from the first pro version of 4. Previously the convention + - * had to be manually entered in the custom keyboard shortcuts. This only took a minute, but it was stupid that it was not the default. Pro users who were used to those shortcuts gave the feedback that this was stupid, and so they fixed it.


Quote from: bcooter
The second thing is change their file format from the .TIF marker to a something like .mos, or cr2, or .nef because when you do a search you know you found a raw file, not a retouched tif file or vice-versa.

Done. On the P65+ and all future backs you can select the file extension ".IIQ" rather than ".TIF". The file format does not change, just the extension, solving the TIFF vs TIF confusion while maintaing file-format compatibility.

Quote from: bcooter
The third thing is make the interface as easy as lightroom.

I think the interface is even easier than LR, but there is no truth on this point, only opinion and a lot of what-you're-used-to. I respect your opinion which is shared by some; I hope you will respect mine which is shared by others.

Doug

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: bcooter on April 02, 2009, 12:23:31 pm
Quote from: dougpetersonci
Color Coding and Tagging was there from the first pro version of 4. Previously the convention + - * had to be manually entered in the custom keyboard shortcuts. This only took a minute, but it was stupid that it was not the default. Pro users who were used to those shortcuts gave the feedback that this was stupid, and so they fixed it.




Done. On the P65+ and all future backs you can select the file extension ".IIQ" rather than ".TIF". The file format does not change, just the extension, solving the TIFF vs TIF confusion while maintaing file-format compatibility.



I think the interface is even easier than LR, but there is no truth on this point, only opinion and a lot of what-you're-used-to. I respect your opinion which is shared by some; I hope you will respect mine which is shared by others.

Doug

[font="Arial"]Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)



This ain't a popularity contest and though I respect your opinion, it doesn't change the fact that to get a .IIQ format every previous Phase One buyer has to drop about 20k in upgrade for something a lot of us weren't asking for in the first place.

Some need/want 60mpx, I don't, but that's not anyone's preference but mine and I guess I should make it clear, I don't expect anyone to care what I use.  I doubt if it matters.

What does matter is if we ask 7 questions about medium format we also get 4 answers back.  So with that in mind;

How bout' a firmware upgrade to change the end marker for the previous backs?  

None of this changes the fact that offering a way to deliver a raw file doesn't help us, though since medium format is a such a small part of the professional market I doubt if it will make much difference in the broad scheme of things.

As far as the interface, lightroom is faster and easier, mapping out images and applying a look is faster and I will give Phase the nod on the processing look it's great out of the can compared to lightroom, but ask your retoucher to learn c1 pro version whatever vs. photoshop cs3/4 or lightroom and they'll laugh, because they ain't taking any classes to learn where the sync button is.

It also doesn't change the fact that for us guys that work cross platform it took Phase a while to finally get vista "partially" working.

Like it or not, Adobe did it right by putting lightroom out for free in beta for a long time before they finally released it.  V1 wasn't perfect but it was damn good and it didn't take a class to learn how to batch process.

All of this camera talk is about selling cameras, not making and delivering photographs and until you've set down on deadline with about a zillion images to process you won't understand how fearful it can be to know that when working a new software your essentially a non paid beta tester.

Actually you do know as you always state don't try this on real jobs until it's tested and proven.  For that I give you your props along with probably being the best Phase dealer out there.  Your company does a good job and I am sure you give Phase a lot of feedback.  

Are they listening?

IMO

Big
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 02, 2009, 12:23:49 pm
Forgot to mention: the new 8-core macs have hyper-threading which allows two threads on each core.

Capture One 4.7 takes advantage of this and is about 60-70% faster in processing large volumes of files as compared to 4.6.3 on these new 8-core macs.

Obviously this will only apply to a small number of users, but those users are the one's likely to be processing several thousand images a week and this means hours less of processing time.


Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 02, 2009, 03:23:05 pm
Quote from: bcooter
How bout' a firmware upgrade to change the end marker for the previous backs?

I'll check.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 02, 2009, 03:31:04 pm
Quote from: bcooter
What does matter is if we ask 7 questions about medium format we also get 4 answers back.  So with that in mind;

You've said this before. Perhaps you could clarify what you are comparing to.

It seems like to me that if you ask Canon or Nikon about future enhancements, features, or product development you get far far less.

Bit Off Topic I guess.

Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: mcfoto on April 02, 2009, 04:17:48 pm
Quote from: dougpetersonci
Forgot to mention: the new 8-core macs have hyper-threading which allows two threads on each core.

Capture One 4.7 takes advantage of this and is about 60-70% faster in processing large volumes of files as compared to 4.6.3 on these new 8-core macs.

Obviously this will only apply to a small number of users, but those users are the one's likely to be processing several thousand images a week and this means hours less of processing time.


Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)

Hi
So Capture One will work faster with the new 2.26 8 core Mac? Reason I ask is I am about to buy one.
Denis
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: tho_mas on April 02, 2009, 04:38:15 pm
Quote from: mcfoto
So Capture One will work faster with the new 2.26 8 core Mac?
Faster compared to what?
C1 V4.7 adresses all 8 (16) cores equally, yes.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: pss on April 02, 2009, 05:01:21 pm
if a client asks for a "raw" file, most mean an un-retouched TIFF...so provide 16bit tiffs....

i totally agree that handing over actual raw files is not in the interest of the photographer...at all...

it is funny to read that the last upgrade was just 3 weeks ago....this could be a good sign...but in this case it isn't...i understand that it is hard to keep up with everything and in all fairness phase 1 capture one pro is by far the best software solution out of the MF in house solutions....
but as far as i remember there have been so many issues with the latest upgrades (loosing/corrupting files????!!!!!! that is crazy! please make it crash but PLEASE do not wipe out the shoot!!!)
so anyway....i am shooting with the 5DII tomorrow....on a mac tethering is still not that easy (have to run VMware with XP to get that done)...so i will try C1.....if i have time today to check it out and make sure i won't mess up something else?....that is what i mean....wait with the next update and make sure it REALLY works....it used to be that i could trust C1 to be the most bulletproof solution out there....i would have downloaded, praised the lord and shot tomorrow without even thinking.....i guess we are seeing microsoft's influence.....
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: gwhitf on April 02, 2009, 05:06:38 pm
Quote from: pss
..wait with the next update and make sure it REALLY works...

If there is money on the table, I have four solid words for anyone: Three Point Seven Nine.

End of story.

Not that that will help you tomorrow with your 5D2.

I still consider Four Point Anything to be Beta, unless you're shooting sunsets or bunnies.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 02, 2009, 05:15:27 pm
Quote from: bcooter
How bout' a firmware upgrade to change the end marker for the previous backs?

When shooting tethered any Phase One Digital back (including the Lightphase, H5, H10, H20, H25... every back inbetween ... P45+ P65+) can shoot to IIQ format. If you are shooting to a card you can use a program like Better Renamer as soon as the card imports to change the file extension to .IIQ from .TIF.

Again, the only difference is the file extension. The file format has not changed.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: G_Allen on April 02, 2009, 05:31:54 pm
Quote from: gwhitf
If there is money on the table, I have four solid words for anyone: Three Point Seven Nine.

End of story.

Not that that will help you tomorrow with your 5D2.

I still consider Four Point Anything to be Beta, unless you're shooting sunsets or bunnies.

Up until 4.6 I would have agreed with you. But I've had great success with the performance and the stability of 4.6, and now much prefer it to 3.7.9.

I shoot mainly in the studio, tethered to my P30+ or the Canon. The added controls of 4.6 over 3.7.9 (I usually use shadow and highlight recovery, vignetting), the greatly improved previews, and the much faster downloading/processing of previews make it a much more precise and professional tool over the old version.

The previews in 3.7.9 used to freak out my clients all the time. I shoot a lot of fashion, and the previews would often show horrendous moire, even if there was none. It seems like it was an image compression problem, as I almost never get moire in my processed images.

The previews pop up quickly and look great in 4.6. I'm playing around with 4.7 now, and the new keyboard navigation/exposure adjustments are extremely helpful.

No complaints over here.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Guy Mancuso on April 02, 2009, 06:33:08 pm
Why folks think this is still beta is beyond me. Too me the improvements over anything in the past is certainly there . I have yet to lose a file or run into a wall at any time. Improvements are great and as thy are developed and worked on is what we have been getting.    I won't ever complain when a company tries to make improvements on there products. Sure something may slip through the cracks and that will happen with anything. I still think not because i shoot Phase i had C1 when the 1ds came out and it still is the best raw processing out there not only for Phase backs but every camera i owned since the 1ds and there have been many. Main reason i bought the Phase back
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Steve Hendrix on April 02, 2009, 06:44:30 pm
edit
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: tho_mas on April 02, 2009, 07:08:30 pm
Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
I personally find this very helpful as I have copies of files across numerous hard drives, I don't always shoot into sessions, etc, and sometimes I've gotten the settings sidecar file separated. Now I don't have to worry about that.
yes, finally now it is similar as it always was in V3... Windows :-) There we could store the settings and LCC files all in the RAW files folder just by command from the adjustment menu of C1. One folder for all files need. Back up... done.
Either way... "eip" is a good option for internal workflow and back up.
If one uses self created icc profiles this should be stored in addition as "eip" does not contain the camera profile used (not yet)... it just stores the setting.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 02, 2009, 08:29:03 pm
Quote from: tho_mas
If one uses self created icc profiles this should be stored in addition as "eip" does not contain the camera profile used (not yet)... it just stores the setting.

True, but the new paradigm for ICC Profile editing in Color Editor is to keep one of the standard profiles as a baseline and then add in a set of line-itemed changes. This is FAR more powerful and flexible since once a set of changes have been made you can go back and modify any and or all of those changes without needing to reset to the baseline profile again.

I.E. You now save Color Editor as "presets" rather than a final ICC profile. These "presets" are included in the EIP.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Paul Sumi on April 02, 2009, 08:32:00 pm
Doug,

Slightly OT: is version 4 compatible with the Magne camera profiles for version 3?

Thanks,

Paul
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: tho_mas on April 02, 2009, 08:46:46 pm
Quote from: dougpetersonci
True, but the new paradigm for ICC Profile editing in Color Editor is to keep one of the standard profiles as a baseline and then add in a set of line-itemed changes. This is FAR more powerful and flexible since once a set of changes have been made you can go back and modify any and or all of those changes without needing to reset to the baseline profile again.
I.E. You now save Color Editor as "presets" rather than a final ICC profile. These "presets" are included in the EIP.
That's right. Actually we could do it in V3 as well (as long as the color editor was opened). But now as part of the tools this is more obvious and by far more comfortable to adjust.
In the case that certain high saturated colors (in consequence of the adjustments) will exceed the camera profiles gamut it's obvious that it's better to create a new profile... otherwise these high saturated colors will be clipped. But this will happen rarely.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: tho_mas on April 02, 2009, 08:49:35 pm
Quote from: PaulS
Slightly OT: is version 4 compatible with the Magne camera profiles for version 3?
Yes. (possibly you have to rename them according to the naming conventions of the Phase One profiles)
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Snook on April 02, 2009, 09:14:40 pm
Quote from: dougpetersonci
I'll check.

What would be great would to be able and put a target point like in ACR so you can target the readings to a Point for calibrating skintones right from the get go.

I find that option pretty handy in ACR when I have to do quick conversions on the fly.
Might help other photographers as well.

Maybe a possible option in 4.8?
Thanks
Snook
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 03, 2009, 04:01:11 pm
Three free guides have been placed on our website.
Making Small JPGs using Web Contact Sheet (http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/04/03/c1-47-tip-making-small-jpgs-very-quickly/)
Using the Keyboard Based Shortcuts for Quick Adjustments (http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/04/02/quick-adjustments/)
An Explanation of the EIP format (http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/04/02/so-what-the-heck-is-eip/)

I'd be happy to take suggestions on what future guides we can write.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: E_Edwards on April 03, 2009, 04:38:41 pm
Well, I downloaded a Demo for the first time and tethered to my 5DII. It tethered immediately, it worked instantly and I found it very easy to find my way around. I liked it a lot. Much better than the old 3x version, much more modern and intuitive. I am used to working with many programs and interfaces, so I found this pretty easy at first glance. I still have to tackle the selective hue adjustments. I liked the standard colour wheel for colour corrections, easy to make changes. The Kelvin and Tint slider would benefit from an indication of what tint or temperature you are sliding towards...like green to magenta or cool to warm, but I don't really need it myself.

The only thing that I couldn't find is a button to open LiveView, presumedly because it's not supported, which is a shame if this is the case, (please let me know if this is not so).

I found it considerably better in the "noise in the dark areas" department than Lightroom.

Also, I haven't tried it beyond 100 or more pictures to see if it freezes due to the USB problem with OSX 10.5.6 and I guess this may still be an issue for the moment until Apple update the OSX.

It processed files really quickly, I was quite surprised,  but I would've liked (as with Lightroom) the Output folder to automatically open and beep when the process is done, though this is no big deal.


All in all, I spent about an hour with it and was impressed so far, with many things left still to discover. I think this is a program that I may be using in the future tethered with the 5DII.

Edward
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Guy Mancuso on April 03, 2009, 04:51:56 pm
I found it considerably better in the "noise in the dark areas" department than Lightroom.

That has been the case with every camera i have run through C1. The noise is far better than Lightroom could ever do.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: ziocan on April 03, 2009, 05:57:13 pm
I think that 299 euros or 399$ for C1 pro is definitively pretentious.  
It does a couple of things that are better than LR or Aperture, but also the other softwares do a few things better than C1, it also lacks a lot of features to be priced so high.
Web galleries feature is very minimal, printing module is non existent, slide show PDF presentation..., sorting out files is still not even close to the easy of use  and the possibility offered by the other two softwares.
if I'm not wrong, there is not even an exif editor....  
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Guy Mancuso on April 03, 2009, 06:03:10 pm
Quote from: ziocan
I think that 299 euros or 399$ for C1 pro is definitively pretentious.  
It does a couple of things that are better than LR or Aperture, but also the other softwares do a few things better than C1, it also lacks a lot of features to be priced so high.
Web galleries feature is very minimal, printing module is non existent, slide show PDF presentation..., sorting out files is still not even close to the easy of use  and the possibility offered by the other two softwares.
if I'm not wrong, there is not even an exif editor....


Two things separate it from anyone else. It works tethered for non Phase backs aka Nikon and Canon and after 8 years of using it I still think without question the best raw converter when it comes down to quality of Image. Having a Phase back is the plus for it
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Snook on April 03, 2009, 06:08:39 pm
I agree with guy.
Doug why are these updates jumping release numbers so strange. 4.5 then 4.6 then 4.6.1 then 4.6.2 then 4.6.3 the 4.7.
Why the odd release numbers and are these major updates or small updates??
I hate installing first time releases re: 4.0,4.5,4.6,4.7???
Upon first update to 4.5 is when I almost had a disaster during a HUGE catalogue when it corrupted the Canon Cr2 files, Remember???... Would not want that to happen EVER again.
Could you let us know if these are major updates or small ones with Big names and full number upgrades??
I am sure I am not the only one wanting to know.
Thanks
Snook
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: bcooter on April 03, 2009, 06:12:05 pm
Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Having a Phase back is the plus for it

Isn't that suppose to be the plan?  I didn't know there was extra points for having a makers software work with their own camera.

B
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Guy Mancuso on April 03, 2009, 06:25:14 pm
Quote from: bcooter
Isn't that suppose to be the plan?  I didn't know there was extra points for having a makers software work with their own camera.

B


Yea but i shot Canon way before the Phase back. At that time no other tethered software was around.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: ziocan on April 03, 2009, 06:42:58 pm
Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Two things separate it from anyone else. It works tethered for non Phase backs aka Nikon and Canon and after 8 years of using it I still think without question the best raw converter when it comes down to quality of Image. Having a Phase back is the plus for it
I understand.
Yet, though i prefer the c1 output to many other softwares, it is not the best on every aspect of raw processing.
Again the eventual advantage in image quality, is not so tangible ( and it does not hold true for every image) to justify the cost diffrence, considering the lack of features or the easy of use of the LR interface, which allows to get to point B faster than with C1. And though I prefer the output of C1 for my cameras, yet it is not best on all areas. I say eventual advantage, because not every image is better processed with C1. It also depend on the kind of subject, scene and lighting. Sometimes it simply turn out better in LR. I could justify the cost and I got c1 pro, but yet I still need of using LR for 90% of my projects. I'm actually using C1 as a raw converter solely, and if I may, it does more or less the same good job of RAW Developer or Silkypix which cost 130 bucks.

I also have a phase back and I really like the quality of C1, but yet I'm not happy with the web gallery feature, the fact that there is not a printing module, and again if I'm not wrong, the lack of exif editor. Not mentioning that sorting files and picking select on LR it is just on another level. compared to LR, C1 is simply cumbersome.

I would like to spend a few words for the web module in lightroom. Web galleries are the contact sheets of the digital age. though C1 web gallery is fairly elegant, it is just one layout and it  offer 1% of the possibilities that are allowed in LR. I think personalizing web galleries is a bit as picking the right fine art box and presentation for your contact sheets or prints, and it is very important to be able to do the web bresentation you are confortable with and that does not look the same for everyone.
Plus, not every client has the same need when they are looking to the web galleries and LR has countless possibilities.

I still think that tweaking files in LR takes less time than c1, and again some photos they simply turn out better in LR.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: ziocan on April 03, 2009, 06:47:48 pm
Quote from: bcooter
Isn't that suppose to be the plan?  I didn't know there was extra points for having a makers software work with their own camera.

B
Otherwise it would be like delivering a brand new car without the keys.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 03, 2009, 06:57:31 pm
Quote from: Snook
I agree with guy.
Doug why are these updates jumping release numbers so strange. 4.5 then 4.6 then 4.6.1 then 4.6.2 then 4.6.3 the 4.7.
Why the odd release numbers and are these major updates or small updates??
I hate installing first time releases re: 4.0,4.5,4.6,4.7???
Upon first update to 4.5 is when I almost had a disaster during a HUGE catalogue when it corrupted the Canon Cr2 files, Remember???... Would not want that to happen EVER again.
Could you let us know if these are major updates or small ones with Big names and full number upgrades??
I am sure I am not the only one wanting to know.
Thanks
Snook

There was also a 4.5.1 and 4.5.2.

The basic concept is that a minor release contains no new major features but only addresses performance, stability, tweaks. Major releases include new features. In other words this is 4.7 is not 4.6.4 because of EIP.

The same rule-of-thumb applies to a small update as to a large update (whether it be Phase, Apple, Adobe or anyone else): wait a few hours, days, or weeks depending on how you use the software. Users who are mainly using this for processing files on a workstation without do-or-die deadlines may download immediately. Photographers/Techs who tether with it are advised to wait longer. In the very least a high pressure production environment should NEVER be the first place you use something.

The above is quite generic advice. I've not heard or seen anything troublesome with 4.7. There are of course bugs (there are bugs in every piece of software including 3.7.9, and anything Apple/Adobe have produced) but nothing major. Then again it's been out for two days.

As always, if something pops up I'll do my best to get it on this board ASAP. And naturally any of Capture Integration's customers are welcome to call me on my cell anytime they'd like to get an idea of what I'm hearing from my interaction with customers, the programmers, the support staff, and my own personal usage.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: eronald on April 03, 2009, 08:18:59 pm
I'd like to thank Doug for taking my call although I'm not a client of his, and explaining to me on the phone that profiles edited by the Color Editor can be saved out by means of a local menu, but he recommends saving edit lists rather than profiles. Doug is definitely knowledgeable about these products


Edmund

Quote from: dougpetersonci
As always, if something pops up I'll do my best to get it on this board ASAP. And naturally any of Capture Integration's customers are welcome to call me on my cell anytime they'd like to get an idea of what I'm hearing from my interaction with customers, the programmers, the support staff, and my own personal usage.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: marcmccalmont on April 04, 2009, 04:14:57 am
Done. On the P65+ and all future backs you can select the file extension ".IIQ" rather than ".TIF". The file format does not change, just the extension, solving the TIFF vs TIF confusion while maintaing file-format compatibility.

How about a firmware revision for older Phase backs?
Marc
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: scott morrish on April 04, 2009, 05:35:39 am
Quote from: ziocan
I still think that tweaking files in LR takes less time than c1, and again some photos they simply turn out better in LR.

Before upgrading to the P45, i was consistently advised that C1 would 'definitely' better Lightroom. Consequently i took the same files through both pieces of software. What i found was that C1 immediately opened the files looking better, but that the additional tools available in Lightroom made it possible to achieve better results via Lightroom. (I do not use high ISO, so not sure if the same applies there). Photographers want open formats and i assume that trying to outflank Adobe must be expensive? I keep wondering why Phase doesn't drop C1 and either offer better backs, or cheaper backs? Same goes for Hasselblad... who prefers Phocus to Lightroom?

Scott
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Carsten W on April 04, 2009, 07:19:43 am
Quote from: scott morrish
Before upgrading to the P45, i was consistently advised that C1 would 'definitely' better Lightroom. Consequently i took the same files through both pieces of software. What i found was that C1 immediately opened the files looking better, but that the additional tools available in Lightroom made it possible to achieve better results via Lightroom. (I do not use high ISO, so not sure if the same applies there). Photographers want open formats and i assume that trying to outflank Adobe must be expensive? I keep wondering why Phase doesn't drop C1 and either offer better backs, or cheaper backs? Same goes for Hasselblad... who prefers Phocus to Lightroom?

Scott

I also use both, and cannot agree. For high ISO, sharpening and white balance, there is for me no comparison. Nothing I do in Lightroom approaches the subtlety of C1 for difficult shots. Having said that, I still use Lightroom for most things, since the workflow and file management are so much better.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: ziocan on April 04, 2009, 12:38:12 pm
Quote from: carstenw
I also use both, and cannot agree. For high ISO, sharpening and white balance, there is for me no comparison. Nothing I do in Lightroom approaches the subtlety of C1 for difficult shots. Having said that, I still use Lightroom for most things, since the workflow and file management are so much better.
you see?
Even if C1 offers great output (and yet is debatable if that is an absolute), it lacks so many other features compared to LR that it cannot be preferred for, sorting, tweaking, cataloguing and presentation. just to tweak files for a web presentation right after the shoot, in LR take literally a fraction of the time. not mentioning if you want to FTP a gallery while you are sorting out an other at the same time, LR is the only one that allows it. there must be a reason why LR is widely adopted, despite not having the best output.
Then again, once on print or at web size, LR images my still look over all better than the C1 ones, despite not being so good when they are 100% magnified on 30" monitor. All those little improvements on the noise of the darkest areas or on sharpness we are getting from c1, are likely irrelevant on 90% of the printed media or web display, especially if working with cameras or backs that are 16mp end up.
then again for fashion and advertising people, the pictures are so heavily retouched once they are ready to go to the final media, that the RAW conversion quality difference is all gone.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: E_Edwards on April 04, 2009, 01:27:45 pm
Ziocan,

You are absolutely right that Lightroom offers many more good features and it is the program I use every day for work because it's fast and allows me to tether to the Leaf files via a hot folder. I am happy with the noise in the shadow areas for the Leaf files too. The quality for me is as good, if not better than Leaf's own (after enabling my own Preset).

However, the other day, I processed some Canon 5DII files in Lightroom (the 5DII is my toy camera, not really for work) and I was very pleased with Lightroom and the general colour until a friend pointed to the noise in the shadow areas. True enough, there was a little bit of noise (I had shot at ISO 320) and I pointed out that this noise would never ever show in print, that it didn't bother me in the least.

Still, if I pushed the file (such as lightening the file by over one or two stops) I could see that the noise then turned into a appalling posterised mess in the deep shadow areas, (and this is even working in 16 bits). Again, I wouldn't normally push a file so much, I would expose properly in the first place. But it got me thinking.

I tried CaptureOne, same file. Tiny, pleasant noise viewing at 100 per cent. However, pushing the file like above, the noise increased but was quite pleasant, there was no posterisation at all. You could get rid of it with Noise Ninja if you wanted to, but with the Lightroom processed file you couldn't, too far gone.

I have to admit that the CaptureOne processed file was better in every sense and if I had to use 5DII files for work, I would not to hesitate to use it, particularly since it's faster when tethered, as you eliminate the need for a hotfolder. It's a shame C1 doesn't do galleries, as I too find it very useful in sending preselected files to client for their approval before I start any work on them.





Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: bcooter on April 04, 2009, 01:34:13 pm
Quote from: marcmccalmont
How about a firmware revision for older Phase backs?
Marc


The "semi" official response to this by the Phase dealer was to use better finder rename.  I use this software, but rarely and of course it's just another step in the chain that requires another batch processing effort, though fast, the more steps you include, the more room for error.

It's interesting to me that Phase touts the new P65+with sensor plus technology as a system that will be constantly upgraded through firmware additions over time.  Sounds like a good idea, though the first addition (the sensor plus tech) required sending the back to the factory for the upgrade (not a good idea).  Same with upgrades to the actual Phase camera.

If medium format is going to continue to sell itself as a long term investment, then some backwards support for still viable  products should give the impression that owners that previously "invested" in the Phase Kodak sensored backs or any Phase product  will be long term viable.  Does the almost new Mamiya III work with the soon to be delivered LS lens, or do you need the IV?   Has anyone received a Phase e-mail to clarify this?

From backs to cameras it's not a big leap to develop the impression that unless you put down 20k more for an upgrade, your might to be sitting on something that will eventually be Phased Out (no pun intended).

In regards to the price of upgrades is there any clear published source that shows exactly what it costs to upgrade from product A to Product B?

The information stream from the factories, especially Phase seems to be a mystery and has no single point of origin.  We get information from Michael on this site that Phase will not announce new products until they are ready to ship. This is the same site that a few years ago published Phase's roadmap that didn't come to pass, so at some point we have to ask ourselves what to believe.

We get information from the phase dealers on this site about upgrades in software, new products/accessories that are yet not shipping (think LS lenses and right angle grips) and the same dealers have these items listen on their websites.  

We get e-mail blasts from the company that are pretty much just sales tools.  

Unless something has changed Michael is not the official spokesperson for Phase One, the dealers need to be all up to speed on what the official factory policies are and it's up to the maker to police their own information stream.

The recent announcement that Phase did/did not, might have bought the controlling interest in Mamiya is another example.  Somehow all the Phase connected people got excited about the news, but stopped short of giving the details, even changing information on the fly.  

There really needs to be some single point of information that comes direct, lives to the maker's own deadline and gives the buyer some assurance that what they buy today will be viable tomorrow and the user continue to do their work without spending a zillion hours keeping up with what is or is not available, how firmware updgrades are implemented, what version of software does or does not work with each operating system, etc. etc.

It seems that today, every big ticket item drops to half price the moment you turn the key and start it up, so if you make a mistake on your purchase it's a costly one.  Less so with $7,000 dslrs, or $8,000 used backs,  much more so with new $40,000 camera backs.

I think that's the reason you see a great deal of interest in people buying used or demo equipment or just saying to hell with it and going with a Canon, Nikon or Sony, or if you actually "need" a medium format back, most working photographers, either buy or rent a 39mpx back stick it on a Hasselblad H and get to work.

Good economy/bad economy, it's not just the front end savings, it's the back end penalty that worries people  and clear information is the start of giving the buyer assurance that they won't get stuck.

IMO

B
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 04, 2009, 04:09:42 pm
Quote from: scott morrish
Before upgrading to the P45, i was consistently advised that C1 would 'definitely' better Lightroom. Consequently i took the same files through both pieces of software. What i found was that C1 immediately opened the files looking better, but that the additional tools available in Lightroom made it possible to achieve better results via Lightroom. (I do not use high ISO, so not sure if the same applies there). Photographers want open formats and i assume that trying to outflank Adobe must be expensive? I keep wondering why Phase doesn't drop C1 and either offer better backs, or cheaper backs? Same goes for Hasselblad... who prefers Phocus to Lightroom?

Scott

Capture One is often one of the reasons people choose Phase One. Far from "expensive" it is one of Phase's greatest assets.


Quote from: ziocan
you see?
Even if C1 offers great output (and yet is debatable if that is an absolute), it lacks so many other features compared to LR that it cannot be preferred for, sorting, tweaking, cataloguing and presentation. just to tweak files for a web presentation right after the shoot, in LR take literally a fraction of the time. not mentioning if you want to FTP a gallery while you are sorting out an other at the same time, LR is the only one that allows it. there must be a reason why LR is widely adopted, despite not having the best output.
Then again, once on print or at web size, LR images my still look over all better than the C1 ones, despite not being so good when they are 100% magnified on 30" monitor. All those little improvements on the noise of the darkest areas or on sharpness we are getting from c1, are likely irrelevant on 90% of the printed media or web display, especially if working with cameras or backs that are 16mp end up.
then again for fashion and advertising people, the pictures are so heavily retouched once they are ready to go to the final media, that the RAW conversion quality difference is all gone.

Ask a reroucher if they would rather start off with a higher or lower quality output.

Also I challange you to sort, compare, edit and make basic adjustments in LR as I do in Capture One 4.7. Both programs are excellentb in this area to the point that if you are an expert user of each both programs are faster than you are (I.e. The weak link is your ability to choose between images).

Quote from: E_Edwards
Ziocan,

You are absolutely right that Lightroom offers many more good features and it is the program I use every day for work because it's fast and allows me to tether to the Leaf files via a hot folder. I am happy with the noise in the shadow areas for the Leaf files too. The quality for me is as good, if not better than Leaf's own (after enabling my own Preset).

However, the other day, I processed some Canon 5DII files in Lightroom (the 5DII is my toy camera, not really for work) and I was very pleased with Lightroom and the general colour until a friend pointed to the noise in the shadow areas. True enough, there was a little bit of noise (I had shot at ISO 320) and I pointed out that this noise would never ever show in print, that it didn't bother me in the least.

Still, if I pushed the file (such as lightening the file by over one or two stops) I could see that the noise then turned into a appalling posterised mess in the deep shadow areas, (and this is even working in 16 bits). Again, I wouldn't normally push a file so much, I would expose properly in the first place. But it got me thinking.

I tried CaptureOne, same file. Tiny, pleasant noise viewing at 100 per cent. However, pushing the file like above, the noise increased but was quite pleasant, there was no posterisation at all. You could get rid of it with Noise Ninja if you wanted to, but with the Lightroom processed file you couldn't, too far gone.

I have to admit that the CaptureOne processed file was better in every sense and if I had to use 5DII files for work, I would not to hesitate to use it, particularly since it's faster when tethered, as you eliminate the need for a hotfolder. It's a shame C1 doesn't do galleries, as I too find it very useful in sending preselected files to client for their approval before I start any work on them.

C1 does do web galleries. Take 1000 raws in each program and it will take a fraction of the time to generate the web gallery in c1 compared to LR. It's very very fast. You do need to bring your own FTP program (LR can upload within the program, which is pretty great)  but it takes10 seconds to launch an FTP program, and drag-and-drop a folder.

Maybe you missed it because in C1 it is called Web Contact Sheet not Web Gallery.


Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: E_Edwards on April 04, 2009, 04:16:15 pm
Quote from: dougpetersonci
C1 does do web galleries.
Maybe you missed it because in C1 it is called Web Contact Sheet not Web Gallery.

Thank you, Doug, I'm learning...and I don't mind using an FTP client, I always do anyway.

Edward
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: scott morrish on April 04, 2009, 05:03:54 pm
Quote from: dougpetersonci
Capture One is often one of the reasons people choose Phase One. Far from "expensive" it is one of Phase's greatest assets.

Well i am a Phase user, and i was using C1, but Lightroom changed a lot of things. I was not suggesting that C1 was expensive, rather that making C1 must be expensive. I have both programs, never use high ISO, and rarely use anything but a phase back (which i am very happy with), and don't see the big quality difference in well exposed files from phase backs. I have no axe to grind... I just wonder why every camera/back maker wants to make their own software instead of concentrating resources on the hardware? Improved or cheaper hardware would serve photographers much better. And if you all (not just phase) opened the file formats up, that would also serve photographers better.


Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Jack Flesher on April 04, 2009, 05:26:22 pm
Quote from: dougpetersonci
Capture One is often one of the reasons people choose Phase One. Far from "expensive" it is one of Phase's greatest assets.

Also I challange you to sort, compare, edit and make basic adjustments in LR as I do in Capture One 4.7. Both programs are excellentb in this area to the point that if you are an expert user of each both programs are faster than you are (I.e. The weak link is your ability to choose between images).

Couldn't agree more.  In fact, once I got more fully facile with C1 -- admittedly a non-trivial exercise -- I nuked LR off my system.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: ziocan on April 04, 2009, 08:13:11 pm
Hopefully no one from Adobe is reading this thread, otherwise they may think to ask 600$ for Lightroom and 3 grands for a photoshop license.
If we use the same reasoning for pricing C1 to adobe products, i think that should be about right.


Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: ziocan on April 04, 2009, 08:32:03 pm
Quote from: dougpetersonci
Capture One is often one of the reasons people choose Phase One. Far from "expensive" it is one of Phase's greatest assets.



Ask a reroucher if they would rather start off with a higher or lower quality output.



Also I challange you to sort, compare, edit and make basic adjustments in LR as I do in Capture One 4.7. Both programs are excellentb in this area to the point that if you are an expert user of each both programs are faster than you are (I.e. The weak link is your ability to choose between images).


C1 does do web galleries. Take 1000 raws in each program and it will take a fraction of the time to generate the web gallery in c1 compared to LR. It's very very fast. You do need to bring your own FTP program (LR can upload within the program, which is pretty great)  but it takes10 seconds to launch an FTP program, and drag-and-drop a folder.
Of course we all prefer to be young and beautiful rather than old an ugly and I'm not hesitating one sec to believe that any retoucher prefer to begin working with a good file rather than a bad one.
We should also ask why the majority of retouchers use Adobe raw converters. Considering that C1 is compatible with most of the cameras that is worth using in the professional world, they should be using C1 instead, but it is not happening. that is a hint that C1 is not exactly a must..

It is undeniable that the speed of generating the web gallery in C1 is outstanding. but going through a FTP software and having only one option as web layout, it is not exactly an elegant solution for a software that is priced above all competitors. If I may.
Again lack of decent printing features, slideshow pdf generator and EXIF editor, make it hardly "la creme de la creme".

I have c1 pro and I would be very happy if it had those features for the price I paid.
All the features that some of my colleges seems happy about, IMO does not justify a price higher than competition, considering what else is lacking.
Of course, I should not even mention the price difference, after all it does not even buy a round of drinks at the lounge....
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Carsten W on April 05, 2009, 03:51:06 am
Quote from: Jack Flesher
Couldn't agree more.  In fact, once I got more fully facile with C1 -- admittedly a non-trivial exercise -- I nuked LR off my system.

Since it seems that I am genetically predisposed to buying only cameras whose raws convert much better with Capture One, I suppose I will have to spring for the full version. Do you feel like posting a little mini-tutorial on how to manage files with C1?
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: eronald on April 05, 2009, 09:51:35 am
C1 Pro is too expensive. It's "worth" $200 at best, and $50 upgrades, and $500 is just too much in these times of a falling economy - frankly i you had a choice as a young hungry man between a used 5D and C1 and Photoshop, which would you get ?

And retouchers use ACR because it's already part of PS so they've paid for it. Plus it's a familiar interface. Give me a choice, and I too would use ACR every day - in fact I keep relapsing until I notice the file quality, or rather the lack of. I'm sure Adobe will end up making a really good converter out of ACR. It's just frustrating watching them get there, when Raw Developer got there with one programmer.

Edmund



Quote from: ziocan
Of course we all prefer to be young and beautiful rather than old an ugly and I'm not hesitating one sec to believe that any retoucher prefer to begin working with a good file rather than a bad one.
We should also ask why the majority of retouchers use Adobe raw converters. Considering that C1 is compatible with most of the cameras that is worth using in the professional world, they should be using C1 instead, but it is not happening. that is a hint that C1 is not exactly a must..

It is undeniable that the speed of generating the web gallery in C1 is outstanding. but going through a FTP software and having only one option as web layout, it is not exactly an elegant solution for a software that is priced above all competitors. If I may.
Again lack of decent printing features, slideshow pdf generator and EXIF editor, make it hardly "la creme de la creme".

I have c1 pro and I would be very happy if it had those features for the price I paid.
All the features that some of my colleges seems happy about, IMO does not justify a price higher than competition, considering what else is lacking.
Of course, I should not even mention the price difference, after all it does not even buy a round of drinks at the lounge....
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Jack Flesher on April 05, 2009, 10:54:22 am
Quote from: eronald
C1 Pro is too expensive. It's "worth" $200 at best, and $50 upgrades, and $500 is just too much in these times of a falling economy - frankly i you had a choice as a young hungry man between a used 5D and C1 and Photoshop, which would you get ?

Where do you come up with this emotional pricing nonsense Edmund?   Reality is what it is -- if you don't like the price, don't buy the product!  Simple, end of subject.  For me, knowing what C1 can do for every file I've run through it, I'll say that both emotionally and productivity-wise it's worth twice what I paid for it.

,
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Snook on April 05, 2009, 11:02:59 am
Quote from: Jack Flesher
Where do you come up with this emotional pricing nonsense Edmund?   Reality is what it is -- if you don't like the price, don't buy the product!  Simple, end of subject.  For me, knowing what C1 can do for every file I've run through it, I'll say that both emotionally and productivity-wise it's worth twice what I paid for it.

,

I agree here..
NOTHING comes close to C-1 for anything I have. Been using it for many years now.
I tried LR and others but they just do not give me the same output. ACR and LR look like crap when I process my P30 files!!
My Canon and P30 files ALWAYS go through C-1 unless I am trying some thing out real quick.

Snook
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: eronald on April 05, 2009, 11:09:23 am
Quote from: Jack Flesher
Where do you come up with this emotional pricing nonsense Edmund?   Reality is what it is -- if you don't like the price, don't buy the product!  Simple, end of subject.  For me, knowing what C1 can do for every file I've run through it, I'll say that both emotionally and productivity-wise it's worth twice what I paid for it.

,

I agree 120% Jack. You have made so much money from C1 that it's well worth that price to YOU which is chicken feed, so every one else should pay what you can afford.

In fact I'll see you and raise you. I assume you gross at least $500K a year, as you are a star pro based in the US. Now all your images are retouched with our indispensable Photoshop, so obviously Adobe should be entitled to at least 10% of your gross sales. You should, productivity-wise, be paying at least $50K to Adobe every year. At least. And of course every other working pro should be expected to pay the same $50K because if it's worth it to you, why should Adobe settle for less from someone else?

BTW Jack, I have a Phase back, which is how come I got to C1 in the first place, and I do agree it's very good. I Just think they should sell it cheaper, so as to sell more of them. Raw Developer is priced right

Edmund
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: eronald on April 05, 2009, 11:11:59 am
Quote from: Snook
I agree here..
NOTHING comes close to C-1 for anything I have. Been using it for many years now.
I tried LR and others but they just do not give me the same output. ACR and LR look like crap when I process my P30 files!!
My Canon and P30 files ALWAYS go through C-1 unless I am trying some thing out real quick.

Snook

I would be very disturbed if I were Adobe, reading this. How is it possible that a multi-billion dollar corporation be marketing expensive software that "looks like cr*p" ? Clearly you cannot know anything about photography.  
Edmund
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Jack Flesher on April 05, 2009, 11:32:49 am
Quote from: eronald
I would be very disturbed if I were Adobe, reading this. How is it possible that a multi-billion dollar corporation be marketing expensive software that "looks like cr*p" ? Clearly you cannot know anything about photography.  
Edmund

Edmund:  Reading your last few posts, it sounds like 1) you have your nose up Adobe's arse to the point of grudge so must have something at stake there -- oh that's right, you sell profiles for their software, don't you?    2) It is perhaps YOU that knows nothing about raw processing given the nonsense you are posting.  

And FTR, I have zero connection to Phase One other than having purchased a few of their products.  I am not even on their beta team.

Cheers,
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: tho_mas on April 05, 2009, 11:36:32 am
Quote from: Snook
LR (...) just do not give me the same output.
The input as well. Starting with C1 one see something that definitely reminds of a "photograph". Starting with ACR everything is in odd colours, washy, midtone accentuated... and it just looks "digital". Where is the fun in that?

The limited colour management options in ACR are downgrading ACR. The colour management options in C1 and the color editor alone are worth the money.
Beside this Photoshop/ACR/LR can't take effect of multicores (at least not yet). C1 utilizes them all (though scrolling though thumbnails in C1 V4 is still slow. Much too slow).
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: eronald on April 05, 2009, 11:52:40 am
I agree, the color editor (in C1 Pro only)  is better than anything else I've seen so far.

If C1 can now deal with Tiff or Jpeg images, then I expect retouchers may move their images into C1 just for skin color edits, it's that good.

I think the Photoshop franchise got fossilized somewhere around Photoshop 7 or CS  and has started missing out on technology improvements. Good quality Raw conversion, more subtle color selection and editing tools, cutting-edge noise reduction, focus/sharpness restoration, and high-quality uprezzing are all features which photographers would expect of the upgrades, and which are technologically possible as evidenced by both the competition and existing plugins (RD, C1, Focus Blade, Noise Ninja, Neat Image, Genuine Fractals). At the very least Adobe could simply buy out a few of the plugins and bundle them.  

I think that now is indeed the time to holler, since NOW is the moment when the CS5 feature list is being written. And Adobe do listen carefully.

Edmund



Quote from: tho_mas
The input as well. Starting with C1 one see something that definitely reminds of a "photograph". Starting with ACR everything is in odd colours, washy, midtone accentuated... and it just looks "digital". Where is the fun in that?

The limited colour management options in ACR are downgrading ACR. The colour management options in C1 and the color editor alone are worth the money.
Beside this Photoshop/ACR/LR can't take effect of multicores (at least not yet). C1 utilizes them all (though scrolling though thumbnails in C1 V4 is still slow. Much too slow).
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: bcooter on April 05, 2009, 12:30:50 pm
Quote from: Jack Flesher
I nuked LR off my system.


It's rare if you find a retoucher that is versed in anything but Photoshop, ARC and Bridge.

In fact most retouchers, if they do convert a raw file, don't really attempt to  output complete color and tone from conversion, but rather do it in photoshop with layers, masks etc., etc.

It's rare if you find a working digital tech that is well versed in anything but C-1 3 point something, or LC11.  A few know lightroom so they can import to a hot folder  a few know flexcolor or phocus if they have a specific client that uses hasselblad,, but other than that 3.7 and LC11 are probably the two most used tethering softwares because they are stable and the phase and leaf backs are the two most rented products.  

Actually though most people find it limited, if your shooting with a Canon and need to tether, EOS utility is very easy and stable and best of all it's free.

Once again, this forum is somewhat myopic on the views digital as it's users do experiment with all forms of processors, cameras, lenses, etc., and look at everything micro detail, but this is a very small portion of the real photographic world, at least the photographic world that produces photography for commerce.

As far as comparing C-1 to lightroom, they both can have a place.  C-1 does process well and in some respects it's fill functions are much more gentle than Lightroom, though it's overall usability and interface is more difficult and a steeper learning curve.  

I rarely process in lightroom, but when not shooting use lightroom frequently to convert retouched tiff's down to different jpegs for presentations, sizes, color space etc. and there are some times that it's various channel color corrections are nice to fine tune an image.

I personally think that C-1 is overpriced next to Lightroom, but it's not my or anyone's decision to decide what a company charges.  Then again when I purchased my two C-1 licensees, I didn't throw away Lightroom 1 or 2, just like I wouldn't throw away a P30+ when I bought a 1ds3, even if I use it less than I did before.

What's the point of throwing away a functioning tool?

This isn't a religion, it's just using tools to make a photograph and there are no absolutes as to which one is best for everyone.


Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: bcooter on April 05, 2009, 12:43:01 pm
Quote from: eronald
I agree, the color editor (in C1 Pro only)  is better than anything else I've seen so far.
........................

 NOW is the moment when the CS5 feature list is being written. And Adobe do listen carefully.

Edmund


I doubt if Adobe thinks C-1 or any converter is a competitor to lightroom or photoshop.  Could be wrong, but I doubt if they worry about this too much.

Adobe has always had a history of allowing third part plug ins to enhance any issue with their products and probably is one of the reason they are the standard of the industry.

Still, it would be nice if the defaults on Adobes two converters were a lot closer to the defaults from the makers software.  At least there would be an even starting point.

Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Jack Flesher on April 05, 2009, 01:43:25 pm
Quote from: bcooter
What's the point of throwing away a functioning tool?

Speaking for myself...  because I did not like the program from the start and all of the functionality I ever used in it is present in ACR/CS4.  That said, I should clarify that I only nuked it from my laptop as I like to keep that machine lean and mean, and only removed the launch icon from my desktop's dock; the program itself is still in there somewhere
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: pss on April 05, 2009, 01:52:06 pm
i wish i could use C1 as the one software...but it is a very capable raw converter...with other functions....
i own and have used C1, LR for years and now use aperture exclusively....
i agree with most people here, the LR/ACR conversions just don't do it for me....
but there is so much more to all this....when i worked and shot into C1 years ago, i had a workflow that included 3 programs....now it is down to 1 that i never have to leave and i can get the files where they need to go in a fraction of the time....that is what counts....
i might look at C1 conversions or even LR for problem files or if i just can't get that look i want, but even in that case, everything goes out from aperture first....
yes, i am dying for v3.0 with tethered shooting for all cameras and yes there are some major features missing....but just the amount of time aperture saves me by providing any raw file in the database as jpeg in any application through the finder without even opening aperture? priceless...the system wide integration is amazing....

i have said this before, i really wish phase would give up on C1 as a standalone version and provide it as a tethering/conversion plug in for LR and aperture....but i guess neither adobe or apple would want that either...
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Colorwave on April 05, 2009, 02:15:18 pm
Quote from: eronald
I agree, the color editor (in C1 Pro only)  is better than anything else I've seen so far.
Edmund
What is different or missing in C1 DB vs. Pro, in terms of the color editor?  I only have the DB version.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 05, 2009, 02:26:37 pm
Quote from: Colorwave
What is different or missing in C1 DB vs. Pro, in terms of the color editor?  I only have the DB version.

DB = Pro - dSLRs.

In other words they are identical when using raws from Phase One Digital backs, but DB does not allow you to edit/adjust/use Canon/Nikon/Leica files. DB is also free.

In version 4 "DB" simply means you select "Use in Digital Back mode" when it asks you to activate the software.


Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
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Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Colorwave on April 05, 2009, 03:41:18 pm
Quote from: dougpetersonci
DB = Pro - dSLRs.
Thanks, Doug.  That's what I thought, but eronald's comments had me questioning myself.  I thought all the controls might go to 11 instead of only 10.  
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: eronald on April 05, 2009, 03:55:59 pm
Quote from: Colorwave
Thanks, Doug.  That's what I thought, but eronald's comments had me questioning myself.  I thought all the controls might go to 11 instead of only 10.  

C1 Pro and DB mode enables some controls eg. color editor advanced mode, which are not unlocked in LE.
You can look in the online manual, the disabled/enabled features are marked there.
 
Edmund
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Snook on April 05, 2009, 04:34:47 pm
Well does anybody have any comments about 4.7 so far??
I have not installed it yet as I am fine with 4.6.3.
Thanks
Snook
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: eronald on April 05, 2009, 04:44:15 pm
Quote from: Snook
Well does anybody have any comments about 4.7 so far??
I have not installed it yet as I am fine with 4.6.3.
Thanks
Snook

I think we're all a bit frightened of installing yet another upgrade
Most of us don't want to pay to beta test.

Edmund
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Jack Flesher on April 05, 2009, 04:44:19 pm
Quote from: Snook
Well does anybody have any comments about 4.7 so far??

Well, so far here's what I've noticed:

1) It's faster

2) you now use the tab key to toggle through the tool palette adjustment boxes and

3) when in those little adjustment boxes the up and down arrow keys increase or decrease those respective adjustments by 1 point  

4) you can now adjust basic jpegs or tiffs

5) you can package the adjustment set with the file

6) Oh, and it installed flawlessly right over 4.6 without having to first remove all traces of 4.6   (I'm running OSX 10.5.6.)

Cheers,
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: tho_mas on April 05, 2009, 04:47:12 pm
Quote from: Snook
Well does anybody have any comments about 4.7 so far??
I have not installed it yet as I am fine with 4.6.3.
No problems on...
4core 2.4GHz / 4GB RAM / Windows Vista
Macbook 2core 2.4GHz / 3GB RAM / OSX 10.5.6
Mac Pro 4.1 8core 2.26GHz / 12GB RAM / OSX 10.5.6

You will like new added adjustments with arrows key in numeric fields... so go for it.

Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: eronald on April 05, 2009, 05:08:33 pm
Quote from: Jack Flesher
Well, so far here's what I've noticed:

1) It's faster

2) you now use the tab key to toggle through the tool palette adjustment boxes and

3) when in those little adjustment boxes the up and down arrow keys increase or decrease those respective adjustments by 1 point  

4) you can now adjust basic jpegs or tiffs

5) you can package the adjustment set with the file

6) Oh, and it installed flawlessly right over 4.6 without having to first remove all traces of 4.6   (I'm running OSX 10.5.6.)

Cheers,

Jack,

Now that's what I call a concise and useful review.
You could have become a technical writer or maybe even gone to law school

Edmund
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: ericstaud on April 05, 2009, 05:18:50 pm
It's time to upgrade to 4.7

It is vasty improved.  Most of the annoyances are gone.  If you have problems on your system it is easy to uninstall, and move back to an older version.  Phase keeps all the old versions available on their web site....   http://www.phaseone.com/Content/Downloads/...rchive%203.aspx (http://www.phaseone.com/Content/Downloads/Software%20Archive%203.aspx)

My advice is to read the instruction manual cover to cover.  There are lots of hidden gems that will save you much more time than it takes to read the thing (you will also have better looking processed files, and better organization of them too).

I would also recommend the training classes.  I took the Master class from Capture integration this past week and it was great....  http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/11/...ne-web-seminar/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/11/24/capture-one-web-seminar/)

I can finally really learn the software and move away from 3.7 rather than going through the process of beta testing each new version of 4 that comes out.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Jack Flesher on April 05, 2009, 06:38:49 pm
Quote from: eronald
Jack,

Now that's what I call a concise and useful review.
You could have become a technical writer or maybe even gone to law school

Edmund

Thanks Edmund, glad you found my summary useful.  

Cheers,
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Guy Mancuso on April 05, 2009, 07:13:01 pm
Quote from: Snook
Well does anybody have any comments about 4.7 so far??
I have not installed it yet as I am fine with 4.6.3.
Thanks
Snook


Yes one really nice thing that was not there in the past that I know i was asking for. Corner sharpness control for the Mamiya 28mm D lens. Finally 4.7 now has the control for it and it works very nicely. I had to cheat before and copy a 35mm setting and apply it to the 28mm . Now it is supported. Also I found that you can use the Tab key to move around in the adjustments and use the up and down arrow to adjust exposure , contrast and anything else that has a slider attached to it. You can tap or you can hold it down for larger movements. I asked Doug to see if Phase could make a small change to it . Actually two changes instead of it glowing white when you are on the box make it green so you can see it easier and also to eliminate the tab bars in each category just skip those and get to each slider faster in each category. Have to try this to see what I mean. But nice new feature that is very handy and if they make those 2 small fixes, should be very fast for the user.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: selsoe on April 06, 2009, 01:02:25 am
If you use Shift+up/down arrows to make adjustments, you get larger increments
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: eronald on April 06, 2009, 02:54:37 am
Quote from: Jack Flesher
Thanks Edmund, glad you found my summary useful.  

Cheers,

That 8 line post was a polished gem. If only web site "reviews" were as informative!
BTW, putting your name in the automatic "signature" is a neat timesaver ...

Edmund
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: R_Medvid on April 06, 2009, 03:05:56 am
Upgrading is good, but I am really puzzled with the way it is being done.

I was an aspiring fan of CO 3.5.x in Ukraine when my colleagues couldn't even pronounce the name of the company (saying something like Faza Vuhn

When I finally bought my P30 and I received the full version of the previously tried PO 3.7.8 I was thrilled, but not for long -- PO started CO4. My local dealer is asking some extra hundred EURs for this version, and I'm still trying new upgrades.

Of course I like a lot of changes: good move from the "garage" design, finally overlay image feature in Windows, more structured approach to files in sessions, etc. But the minor featues and bugs and underthought functions that are still pop up in 4.7 amaze me.

I don't understand it when with minor updates you change this SHIFT key function or add some arrows support. You cannot change the control of the program on the go. Users usually grow to it - it should be thought through in advance, tested and only then presented in big bulks -- making users re-read the manual all over again.

Some of the frustrations:

1. Process. When I do a convert according to 2 recipes: one full-size jpeg and one preview screen jpeg -- the preview jpeg comes out like after the worst algorythm ever [attachment=12775:girl__CO4.jpg].

Have a look and compare to simple PS downsizing [attachment=12774:girl_PS.jpg].

One user used to alert on this on PO user2user forum, but so what?  

2. Color tagging and sorting. After you color tagged some of the pictures and then sorted the images according to the color, the images with the same color come in an order that I fail to fathom. 26, 5, 13, 54, 1.... When I sit with my Client after the shoot and we are looking through the red-marked images, I am speechless to explain to them why the images don't come in the order we were shooting. Client of course think that the photographer is not familiar with the soft.

This flaw comes up only in Windows version, as far as I know. I filed a support case some time ago with PO. Here comes 4.7 - no change. (

Overall, stability of the program is still far below compared to 3.7.8. Same computer, same Windows, same everything...


Some of the questions:

1. Web Gallery and small JPGs. Not all your web galleries should be Flashy. Some people like it, some prefer old good HTML. Please.

Also the latest tip from vastly respected CI  (http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/04/03/c1-47-tip-making-small-jpgs-very-quickly/)to produce little JPGs by creating a web gallery is very indicative of the program. You have to trick and hack ))

2. EIP format.

- aware of it or not, PO is doing right from the marketing viewpoint to introduce this format. There is a theory that complementary market segments should de-value each other. For example, SUN (hardware) is de-value-ing the software developers (by sponsoring Linux, OpenOffice, etc). Microsoft and others view hardware as a commodity. So PO is pushing RAW files to commodity segment, implying that now Clients would be wise to purchase CO4 as well ).

- some of the issues with EIP are not clear. Obviously, info packed into the EIP file and info from the Settings folder should conflict. How does CO4 prioritize two sets of settings? If you change the settings of the EIP, both sets of settings change? What happens to the mainstream settings when you unpack (though you might not need it, but you may) the file? All these issues should be clarified -- probably I need to read the new manual book again)
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: selsoe on April 06, 2009, 03:31:39 am
Quote from: R_Medvid
- some of the issues with EIP are not clear. Obviously, info packed into the EIP file and info from the Settings folder should conflict. How does CO4 prioritize two sets of settings? If you change the settings of the EIP, both sets of settings change? What happens to the mainstream settings when you unpack (though you might not need it, but you may) the file? All these issues should be clarified -- probably I need to read the new manual book again)

When you pack to EIP, the settings are moved from the settings folder to the package, so there are no conflicts. When you unpack, they are moved back into the settings folder.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: tho_mas on April 06, 2009, 04:53:41 am
Quote from: R_Medvid
underthought functions that are still pop up in 4.7
True. Though V4 now runs pretty well in its current state and though there are some very good new features I think everyone still has a list of things to be fixed or improved.

Here is mine (probably incomplete):

- cmd +/- removed from V3 to zoom in/zoom out (a pain on the mac version!)

- no fixed viewing size smaller than "to fit"; the image is always next to the browser and/or the tools.
This distracts from the image as you never have a neutral framing.
And if you hide the browser the image is getting bigger. Honestly reminds me of the interface preset in Photoshop Elements.
Why can't we set fixed 12,5% or even 8% viewing size? I don't get it.

- the dark interface; I prefer the Windows mid grey or the Mac white from V3.
At length I become tired working with dark interfaces.
But this will remain unchanged. End of subject.

- still no user preset for the prefered input profile at start. C1 always starts with the "Flash" profile.

- scrolling through thumbnails is still much too slow (even in already created sessions and/or the folders set as "favorites")

- RGB chanels missing. According to Phase One chanels will be back.
I put a feature request regarding a fourth chanel for luminance only. I'm curious about it.

- stitcher is missing.

- I'd like to reduce the number of tools. Would be great if we could delete (or fade out) entire tool tabs.
e.g. I combined "lens", "details" and metadata. So I don't need the tools "details" and "metadata" anymore.
As I always use keyboard shortcuts to jump to the next (or previous) tool tab this would be handy for me.

- preview on/off for settings. e.g. noise reduction - I'd like to compare my current setting on/off with one click.
There are workarounds of course... safe the setting and toggle between the saved setting and a zero setting (and afterwards delete the saved setting).
Or set a variant... means switching to mulitview, afterwards switching back to primary view and delete the variant. Both... slow. Much too slow.
In addition preview on/off of entire tool panes would be great (so if you have lens correction, noise reduction and sharpening in one tool pane it would be handy to preview on/off the settings in that pane in one step).

- oh, yes, and all the "capture one" folders all over the computer and the lack of a "delte previews" function right from C1... this is a pain. In the library, if you right click on your prefered output folder (possibly containing a lot of big TIFs) to set it as output folder... C1 immediately creates a folder and starts to create previews. Funny.
We can set the output folder in the process tool, sure. But why can't we set it while creating a new session? (Or am I missing something here?)
The entire folder structure lacks of flexibility.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 06, 2009, 09:53:36 am
Quote from: selsoe
If you use Shift+up/down arrows to make adjustments, you get larger increments


Quote from: selsoe
When you pack to EIP, the settings are moved from the settings folder to the package, so there are no conflicts. When you unpack, they are moved back into the settings folder.

Selsoe, those are both great tips. I hope you don't mind I've added them to our articles on EIP (http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/04/02/so-what-the-heck-is-eip/) and Quick Keyboard Adjustments (http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/04/02/quick-adjustments/). If you'd rather not receive credit or would like the link to point elsewhere just let me know.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Jack Flesher on April 06, 2009, 10:04:32 am
Quote from: dougpetersonci
Selsoe, those are both great tips. I hope you don't mind I've added them to our articles on EIP (http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/04/02/so-what-the-heck-is-eip/) and Quick Keyboard Adjustments (http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/04/02/quick-adjustments/). If you'd rather not receive credit or would like the link to point elsewhere just let me know.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)

FWIW, adding Shift+Tab moves you backwards through the adjustment boxes...
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Snook on April 06, 2009, 10:17:21 am
A lot of great info here guys..
Thanks
Snook
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Jack Flesher on April 06, 2009, 11:23:54 am
Quote from: eronald
That 8 line post was a polished gem. If only web site "reviews" were as informative!
BTW, putting your name in the automatic "signature" is a neat timesaver ...

Edmund

Yep. And folks don't need a Ph.D to understand what I'm talking about.  As for the signature, I never understood needing to have it appear twice...  

Cheers,
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Jack Flesher on April 06, 2009, 11:29:15 am
Quote from: R_Medvid
Some of the frustrations:

1. Process. When I do a convert according to 2 recipes: one full-size jpeg and one preview screen jpeg -- the preview jpeg comes out like after the worst algorythm ever [

Have to agree here.  The C1 small jpeg rendering is pretty pathetic quality compared to a stepped downrezzing in CS4.  But then so are most other one-shot small jpeg creation algorithms in other raw converters...
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: selsoe on April 06, 2009, 01:23:01 pm
Quote from: dougpetersonci
Selsoe, those are both great tips. I hope you don't mind I've added them to our articles on EIP (http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/04/02/so-what-the-heck-is-eip/) and Quick Keyboard Adjustments (http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/04/02/quick-adjustments/). If you'd rather not receive credit or would like the link to point elsewhere just let me know.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)

No problem, I'm glad to help  
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: bcroslin on April 09, 2009, 01:50:26 pm
Can someone please tell if there's a way to search for a file within Capture One?
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: billthecat on April 10, 2009, 10:29:26 am
After trying to run it in trial mode something called ImgCoreProcess.exe seems to crash everything when it doesn't get Internet access. Is there a work around for this?

Bill
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: aaanorton on April 13, 2009, 02:40:03 pm
There's a good amount of info in here so far. Thanks to all contributing.

Here are some of my questions/comments on 4.7:

1. Praise Baby Jesus for the up/down, shift- up/down arrow adjustments (Now if only Apple would get fully on that boat with Aperture...). One small quibble: I wish that upon making adjustments, I could hit Enter and have the setting saved, but also highlighted for further editing or numeric input. It seems to me that hitting Return or Enter could give you either result, i.e. saved and deselected (as it is now) or saved and selected (as I just described).

2. Is there a preview in the EIP format? This might allow basic usage of Aperture or Portfolio for large (20TB +) libraries.

3. Metadata. I'm glad that metadata is no longer nuked (seemingly), but full metadata editing and templating is necessary. As is batch renaming. Am I missing batch renaming somewhere?

4. The multi threading looks great. Any word on 4.7 in a xgrid environment? Would it play nice?

Paul, I'm glad you mentioned the CO as plug-in idea. I've been lobbying Phase people for this since LR beta. Imaging if CO was simply another tab in LR... Nice. This would solve so many problems. Phase' devs are great at coding processing but not so good with organizing, UI, metadata, printing, web galleries, etc. So why not pay them to what they do best and allow Adobe to pay their devs to do the rest?

And since I enjoy repeating myself so much, Phase One, please open up your RAW format and processing engine and compete from there.

Thanks,
-c
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: selsoe on April 13, 2009, 03:42:46 pm
Quote from: aaanorton
There's a good amount of info in here so far. Thanks to all contributing.

Here are some of my questions/comments on 4.7:

2. Is there a preview in the EIP format? This might allow basic usage of Aperture or Portfolio for large (20TB +) libraries.

3. Metadata. I'm glad that metadata is no longer nuked (seemingly), but full metadata editing and templating is necessary. As is batch renaming. Am I missing batch renaming somewhere?

There is no static preview embedded in the EIP's, however a Quicklook plugin is included in Capture One, so previews can be generated on request in the Finder or other applications utilizing Quicklook. Note however, that the generated previews are of the unadjusted raw files.

There is currently no metadata editing, but hopefully we'll see it in the future.
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 13, 2009, 04:15:51 pm
Quote from: aaanorton
There's a good amount of info in here so far. Thanks to all contributing.

Here are some of my questions/comments on 4.7:

3. Metadata. I'm glad that metadata is no longer nuked (seemingly), but full metadata editing and templating is necessary. As is batch renaming. Am I missing batch renaming somewhere?

To batch rename:
1. Select the images to be renamed
2. Right Click (control click on a mac) and select "Batch Rename" from the context menu
3. In the Batch Rename Window note the options by clicking the down arrow in the corner.

Quote from: aaanorton
And since I enjoy repeating myself so much, Phase One, please open up your RAW format and processing engine and compete from there.

The raw format IS open. Adobe Camera Raw (a.k.a. Photoshop and Lightroom), Raw Photo Processor, Irrident Raw Developer, and Capture One can open them natively because those developers have included support. Phase even included output to DNG so that you could use the raw file in programs for which the developers have not included support (e.g. Aperture).

As for giving away the processing engine: you might as well ask Adobe to "open up" their library/keyword engine, web-gallery creator, etc etc. The excellent processing engine is one of the key advantages of Phase One and the fact that Capture One is the only software from a Medium Format Digital Back manufacturer which also has a massive following as a general processing (for dSLRs) says a heck of a lot about the value of that processing engine.

Quote from: selsoe
There is no static preview embedded in the EIP's, however a Quicklook plugin is included in Capture One, so previews can be generated on request in the Finder or other applications utilizing Quicklook. Note however, that the generated previews are of the unadjusted raw files.

There is currently no metadata editing, but hopefully we'll see it in the future.

Just a minor point: it's not much I know, but you CAN edit the copyright and caption field which translate through to processed files as universally accessible metadata (in photoshop, the finder etc).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: Doug Peterson on April 13, 2009, 04:29:50 pm
Quote from: tho_mas
True. Though V4 now runs pretty well in its current state and though there are some very good new features I think everyone still has a list of things to be fixed or improved.

Having spoken with them personally I can tell you no one is more aware of this than Phase One's developers. However, I would point out that it is often a sign that you're doing pretty well when you get criticism. It reminds me of group photo critiques in college. The most criticism was usually given to the best shots because shots that weren't any good weren't worth the time, and no single tweak would have meant much.

I think 4.7 is a major milestone for C1 4.


Quote from: tho_mas
- no fixed viewing size smaller than "to fit"; the image is always next to the browser and/or the tools.
This distracts from the image as you never have a neutral framing.
And if you hide the browser the image is getting bigger. Honestly reminds me of the interface preset in Photoshop Elements.
Why can't we set fixed 12,5% or even 8% viewing size? I don't get it.

Something likely to be added in the mid-term future.


Quote from: tho_mas
- still no user preset for the prefered input profile at start. C1 always starts with the "Flash" profile.

Hopefully soon! I'm also waiting for that. Either that or a "import with style" from card which you can set a default with.

Quote from: tho_mas
- scrolling through thumbnails is still much too slow (even in already created sessions and/or the folders set as "favorites")

They have made great strides here in the last several versions, but I agree it is too slow still and I hope it improves even further.


Quote from: tho_mas
- stitcher is missing.

This sucks! I would love to be able to stitch in the raw format again. The Photoshop workaround would be much better, but in-raw would be much much better. I know it's on the roadmap; so I hope they get to it soon!

I dream of having my four-image tech camera stitches automatically detected and combined into one large (probably virtual) raw file to allow the full range of processing tools and maintain the same workflow.

Quote from: tho_mas
- preview on/off for settings. e.g. noise reduction - I'd like to compare my current setting on/off with one click.
There are workarounds of course... safe the setting and toggle between the saved setting and a zero setting (and afterwards delete the saved setting).
Or set a variant... means switching to mulitview, afterwards switching back to primary view and delete the variant. Both... slow. Much too slow.
In addition preview on/off of entire tool panes would be great (so if you have lens correction, noise reduction and sharpening in one tool pane it would be handy to preview on/off the settings in that pane in one step).

I think that's a fantastic suggestion.

Quote from: tho_mas
[...] In the library, if you right click on your prefered output folder (possibly containing a lot of big TIFs) to set it as output folder... C1 immediately creates a folder and starts to create previews. Funny.
We can set the output folder in the process tool, sure. But why can't we set it while creating a new session? (Or am I missing something here?)
The entire folder structure lacks of flexibility.

In the library view you can right click on a folder and "set as output folder". If you do this a lot you can assign a keyboard shortcut.


Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: tho_mas on April 13, 2009, 04:52:53 pm
Quote from: dougpetersonci
I think 4.7 is a major milestone for C1 4.
Yes, I think it's running pretty well now. Still trouble with switching to session/folders created on Windows but within their respective systems V4.7 runs stable here.
Quote
I think that's a fantastic suggestion.
good that you agree! I put it as feature request at Phase support... month ago :-)
Maybe things change when you are going to double this.

Quote
In the library view you can right click on a folder and "set as output folder". If you do this a lot you can assign a keyboard shortcut.
yes, that's what I was referring to - in this case C1 creates a "capture one" folder and starts to create previews... as the output folder already contains (a lot of) TIFs. To avoid this it's better to set the output folder in the process tab. But I don't understand why we can't set the output folder when creating sessions? Is it that extraordinary complicated to code? I don't think so.
Too I am a GREAT fan of the central cache of C1V3 Windows. One folder for all the previews - either way if on local or external drive. And in addition the option in the preferences to schedule the deleting of the previews (after 10 days or whenever). This was always much, much better than on Mac. But I think this will remain unchanged unfortunately.

As to the stitcher - if you agree - you may double my suggestions (feature request) that it would be extremely useful if we could use layers. Because this way we could use the LCC shots as masks to correct vignetting precisely! That's the way I do it in Photoshop but it's a lot of work.

Anyway...

Thanks, Doug!
Title: Capture One 4.7 released
Post by: aaanorton on April 13, 2009, 07:18:49 pm
Thanks for the rename tip. I wish there were a menu selection for this too, but a contextual item does the trick.

I don't want to start an argument, but their file format is not open. If it were, Aperture would would have access to them directly, without relying on Adobe to provide an open simulation of the original.

Your reply to my processing engine comment illustrates the long standing problem surrounding this issue. I suggested openning it up and you countered that it could never be given away. These are simply not the same thing. There are people (including myself) who think an open and free processor from Phase makes sense in the long run, but putting that aside I'd still like to see it made open and standardized.  
 

Quote from: dougpetersonci
To batch rename:
1. Select the images to be renamed
2. Right Click (control click on a mac) and select "Batch Rename" from the context menu
3. In the Batch Rename Window note the options by clicking the down arrow in the corner.



The raw format IS open. Adobe Camera Raw (a.k.a. Photoshop and Lightroom), Raw Photo Processor, Irrident Raw Developer, and Capture One can open them natively because those developers have included support. Phase even included output to DNG so that you could use the raw file in programs for which the developers have not included support (e.g. Aperture).

As for giving away the processing engine: you might as well ask Adobe to "open up" their library/keyword engine, web-gallery creator, etc etc. The excellent processing engine is one of the key advantages of Phase One and the fact that Capture One is the only software from a Medium Format Digital Back manufacturer which also has a massive following as a general processing (for dSLRs) says a heck of a lot about the value of that processing engine.



Just a minor point: it's not much I know, but you CAN edit the copyright and caption field which translate through to processed files as universally accessible metadata (in photoshop, the finder etc).

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)