Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Zachary Goulko on April 02, 2009, 09:44:45 am
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Hartblei has completely revamped their super rotator tilt shift lenses, which now sport Zeiss glass. They are digital lenses and supposedly outresolve most digital sensors available today (up to 200 lp/mm resolution). Also, they feature integrated tripod mounts for parallax-free stitching.
They also come in 20, 80, and 120mm.
I've been looking for a lightweight portable solution for panorama stitching for some time now. After emailing Hartblei, they told me that the 40mm is around $6k US. Has anyone gotten their hands on one of these yet, and if so does it hold up to the specs and it's price point?
here is the link: http://hartblei.de/en/sr40if.htm (http://hartblei.de/en/sr40if.htm)
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Hartblei has completely revamped their super rotator tilt shift lenses, which now sport Zeiss glass. They are digital lenses and supposedly outresolve most digital sensors available today (up to 200 lp/mm resolution). Also, they feature integrated tripod mounts for parallax-free stitching.
They also come in 20, 80, and 120mm.
I've been looking for a lightweight portable solution for panorama stitching for some time now. After emailing Hartblei, they told me that the 40mm is around $6k US. Has anyone gotten their hands on one of these yet, and if so does it hold up to the specs and it's price point?
You can buy a Hasselblad HTS for $5.4K that is infinitely better. It's designed to work on the newer H series cameras.
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You can buy a Hasselblad HTS for $5.4K that is infinitely better. It's designed to work on the newer H series cameras.
If the OP is considering a Hertblei lens, he is not using a Hasselblad.
How can the HTS be 'infinitely better' (mathematical impossibility aside)? An optical converter slows down the lens and can only add IQ problems compared to a custom-made T/S lens. Convenient? Yes. Better? Unlikely.
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You can buy a Hasselblad HTS for $5.4K that is infinitely better. It's designed to work on the newer H series cameras.
Can the HTS be placed on a tripod for parallax free stitching?
Also, does the Japanese glass in the H lenses hold up with Zeiss? I am pretty disappointed with the 35mm HC lens.
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here is the link: http://hartblei.de/en/sr40if.htm (http://hartblei.de/en/sr40if.htm)
One area that's always seemed vague to me, as I read about those new lenses: It always seemed confusing whether the Zeiss glass was only for 35mm bodies, or whether they were to go into the MediumFormat bodies as well. Everything I read that mentioned Zeiss always seemed to refer only to 35mm. This link that you mention seems to refer only to 35mm too, unless I"m missing something.
Since this is a MF forum, (right Graham?), it seems worth mentioning this factor. Seems like a lot more effort and energy is being put forth toward 35, rather than MF, with these new lenses. I guess that's where the market is, and the volume.
Maybe I'm wrong about this whole thing, but there seems to be a clear line between 35 and MF with Hartblei.
Having said that, adding the Tripod Adaptor is a great idea. The Canons should copy that. You want the body to move; not the lens. That way, they line up damn near pixel to pixel.
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If the OP is considering a Hertblei lens, he is not using a Hasselblad.
How can the HTS be 'infinitely better' (mathematical impossibility aside)? An optical converter slows down the lens and can only add IQ problems compared to a custom-made T/S lens. Convenient? Yes. Better? Unlikely.
I perhaps would suggest you reserve such comments until the moment somebody does a specific side-by-side comparison.
I was only visiting a client today who described that the HTS 'saved them' on a job. They had to copy reflective flat artwork in a gallery, with difficult light. Being able to position the camera off centre to the artwork and shift into place was enough to give them far finer controls and achieve what they needed.
No complaints about image quality.
Best,
David
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Can the HTS be placed on a tripod for parallax free stitching?
Also, does the Japanese glass in the H lenses hold up with Zeiss? I am pretty disappointed with the 35mm HC lens.
The HTS does not have a tripod mount. There would be too much mechanical stress, plus you could not then rotate for horizontal shifting.
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One area that's always seemed vague to me, as I read about those new lenses: It always seemed confusing whether the Zeiss glass was only for 35mm bodies, or whether they were to go into the MediumFormat bodies as well. Everything I read that mentioned Zeiss always seemed to refer only to 35mm. This link that you mention seems to refer only to 35mm too, unless I"m missing something.
Since this is a MF forum, (right Graham?), it seems worth mentioning this factor. Seems like a lot more effort and energy is being put forth toward 35, rather than MF, with these new lenses. I guess that's where the market is, and the volume.
Maybe I'm wrong about this whole thing, but there seems to be a clear line between 35 and MF with Hartblei.
Having said that, adding the Tripod Adaptor is a great idea. The Canons should copy that. You want the body to move; not the lens. That way, they line up damn near pixel to pixel.
On their site they say that the lenses are available in the following mounts:
Canon EF
Nikon F
Sony/Minolta
PentaxK
Leica R
Contax
However, this brochure show the lens on a Phase/Mamiya: http://www.hartblei.eu/en/Flyer_E_web.pdf (http://www.hartblei.eu/en/Flyer_E_web.pdf)
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One area that's always seemed vague to me, as I read about those new lenses: It always seemed confusing whether the Zeiss glass was only for 35mm bodies, or whether they were to go into the MediumFormat bodies as well. Everything I read that mentioned Zeiss always seemed to refer only to 35mm. This link that you mention seems to refer only to 35mm too, unless I"m missing something.
Since this is a MF forum, (right Graham?), it seems worth mentioning this factor. Seems like a lot more effort and energy is being put forth toward 35, rather than MF, with these new lenses. I guess that's where the market is, and the volume.
Maybe I'm wrong about this whole thing, but there seems to be a clear line between 35 and MF with Hartblei.
Having said that, adding the Tripod Adaptor is a great idea. The Canons should copy that. You want the body to move; not the lens. That way, they line up damn near pixel to pixel.
Vague is being polite, when you combine information from a Ukranian lens maker and throw in an "alliance" with a medium format maker.
Bascially without having hard facts historically Harteblie lenses, regardless of mount have generally been designed to cover a 645 format and the 35mm versions, even pre zeiss glass were just 645 lenses with a few different 35mm mounts. (Actually 6x6 Kiev lenses with different mounts).
Now with Ziess glass they might be sharper, though I like the older softer Russian Spy Lens glass, the build quality is always been kind of hit and miss with every example having it's own unique character.
I have two SuperRotators one for the Contax,, one for Canon and the Contax version just got stiff and takes almost two hands to makes adjustments where the Canon version is still smooth and easy to work.
The difference is the Canon version is never really sharp, the Contax version is, (though I never found Canon's early TS's that sharp either).
I doubt seriously if you will see the Zeiss versions of these lenses in anything but 35mm and if they do go to 645 it will probably be only Phamamamaiya and even then probably 2012 before they are out.
Still for the prices, I doubt seriously if you'll see any of these lenses out in the marketplace.
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However, this brochure show the lens on a Phase/Mamiya: http://www.hartblei.eu/en/Flyer_E_web.pdf (http://www.hartblei.eu/en/Flyer_E_web.pdf)
But read the copy in that PDF. Seems to talk only about 35 use.
Like I say, very vague. I rest my case.
Yeah, I'd want to base my career on going with gear from this company. Yeah, right.
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But read the copy in that PDF. Seems to talk only about 35 use.
Like I say, very vague. I rest my case.
Yeah, I'd want to base my career on going with gear from this company. Yeah, right.
That's probably because they have a deal with Phase and since there is only one almost new focal plane medium format camera still made, the Phamamamamiya, (you know the Lexus of the Mamiya line), they leave the 645 sales to Phase are allowed to sell 35mm lenses direct.
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I perhaps would suggest you reserve such comments until the moment somebody does a specific side-by-side comparison.
(snip)
No complaints about image quality.
David, sorry if you took offence. My comment was not intended as an attack on Hasselblad or the IQ of the HTS. There was a comment that an optical converter was 'infinitely better' than a dedicated TS lens, and that was plain absurd. I was attempting to state the fact that a dedicated T/S lens will outperform an optical converter every time (all else being equal).
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On their site they say that the lenses are available in the following mounts:
Canon EF
Nikon F
Sony/Minolta
PentaxK
Leica R
Contax
However, this brochure show the lens on a Phase/Mamiya: http://www.hartblei.eu/en/Flyer_E_web.pdf (http://www.hartblei.eu/en/Flyer_E_web.pdf)
They also list:
Kiev 60 / Pentacon Six, Mamiya 645, Contax 645, Pentax 645
on Hartblei.com
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Announced at Photokina 2008, but I haven't seen further info on the Rodenstock S + T series :
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....c=28235&hl= (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28235&hl=)
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Stefan Steib from Hartblei DE visits these forums every now and again and he is the best person to explain the exact dynamics between between the German and the Ukrainian sides of the name, and of course about the lenses, where they come from and what they are designed for.
I've seen images taken with these lenses on a 5D and they were far better than what I know from Canon glass. My understanding is that they use Carl Zeiss glass kits (made for medium format) and fit them with the T/S mechanism and a 35mm mount.
The 45mm T/S for medium format, to my knowledge, does not use Zeiss glass. Again Stefan is the guy and I'm sure he'll be happy to answer any question: ()
BR
Yair
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If the OP is considering a Hertblei lens, he is not using a Hasselblad.
How can the HTS be 'infinitely better' (mathematical impossibility aside)? An optical converter slows down the lens and can only add IQ problems compared to a custom-made T/S lens. Convenient? Yes. Better? Unlikely.
Maybe "infinite" is an exageration. But, with the HTS, you can use 28mm, 35mm, 50mm, 80mm, and 100mm HC lenses. The Fuji glass is exceptional. The HTS also provides smoooooth and precisely repeatable setup. The only advantage I can see to the Hartblei is that it is probably more convenient to handhold.
People bash the HC35 from time to time, but I've got to say it completely outclasses the Mamiya version.
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Not only was this trio of lenses announced at PhotoKina 2008 but they were also announced at PhotoKina 2006.
As Yair pointed out, Stefan Steib occasionally posts here and did post fairly frequently on these lenses, here,
after the announcement in Fall 2006.
These lenses were seemingly only available to buy as 'prototypes' in the term after Photokina2006
and it was impossible to track down anyone who was actually able to secure one or more.
If I recall accurately, Guy Mancuso also had a fairly lengthy back and forth with Mr Steib,on the Fred Miranda forums
over two years ago as he hoped to secure one or more of these lenses for his Leica DMR.
I think there were a number of photographers who might have been initially interested in these lenses for 35mm,even
at the $6K pricepoint, but 2-3 years on now and with Nikon rolling out their three excellent TS lenses and Canon reworking
their 24 TS and releasing a new 18mm TS I think it is going to be a tough sell for the Hartblei set.
The tripod collar will be a major asset for stitchers but Hartblei is going to have to go far beyond a few modest web images and
quotes to prove that their optics far outperform available competition.
Mark
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As mentioned, they are not new. The optical units are the exact same units as the last ones Zeiss made for Hassleblad before it was sold. For example, the Hartblei 40 uses the same optical unit from the Hasselblad 40mm CFE-IF. All that is different is their is no Prontor shutter in the Hartblei lenses, hence the aperture assembly is a Haretbeli design. The tripod mount is all that is new.
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These lenses were seemingly only available to buy as 'prototypes' in the term after Photokina2006
and it was impossible to track down anyone who was actually able to secure one or more.
Two separate photographers over at getdpi.com were able to get one of these, and both were much worse than even average copies of the earlier Hartblei versions, with amazingly soft corners and inconsistent results across the frame. I suppose development continues until the results wouldn't embarass Phase any more.
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Two separate photographers over at getdpi.com were able to get one of these, and both were much worse than even average copies of the earlier Hartblei versions, with amazingly soft corners and inconsistent results across the frame. I suppose development continues until the results wouldn't embarass Phase any more.
We're discussing the Zeiss formulas in 40mm, 80mm, and 120mm focal lengths
while the only tilt shift lens fitting the Phamiya is the 45mm.
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We're discussing the Zeiss formulas in 40mm, 80mm, and 120mm focal lengths
while the only tilt shift lens fitting the Phamiya is the 45mm.
Ah, I thought the only prototypes available were the Hartblei 45 replacements? Were the Zeiss versions also available as prototypes?
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Ah, I thought the only prototypes available were the Hartblei 45 replacements? Were the Zeiss versions also available as prototypes?
Carsten,
On the previous version of the Hartblei website the 3 Zeiss-glassed lenses (40,80,and 120) were being
offered for sale as 'prptotypes'.
Whether they were,in fact,were prototypes or whether it was a language translation issue I can't say.
The current link below to the 120mm still calls it a prototype if you look in the image caption text at the bottom right of the photograph
http://hartblei.de/en/sr120m.htm (http://hartblei.de/en/sr120m.htm)
Mark
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i tried the hartbleis (40mm, 80mm and 120mm) with nikon F mount last weekend. mechanically they are
very nice, much better than the new nikon PCE lenses. tilt and shift is completely independent. optically,
i was not really impressed by the (very expensive) 40mm lens. it has a lot of distorsion, is pretty soft
(with shift) and all in all not really superior (optically) to the nikon 40mm PCE. the hartblei 80 and 120mm
are in a different class, much better optics then their 40mm 'brother'.
peter
We're discussing the Zeiss formulas in 40mm, 80mm, and 120mm focal lengths
while the only tilt shift lens fitting the Phamiya is the 45mm.
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Thank you, Peter.
Great to hear from a end-user.
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How much movement can you achieve with the HTS then? Surely for what it costs you'd be better off getting a view camera with proper full movements and a really nice Rodenstock or Schneider lens. I've been rather underwhelmed by the samples I've seen on this forum from the HTS and attached lenses. There is a limit to what the software will correct when a lens reaches it limits.
Pete
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How much movement can you achieve with the HTS then? Surely for what it costs you'd be better off getting a view camera with proper full movements and a really nice Rodenstock or Schneider lens. I've been rather underwhelmed by the samples I've seen on this forum from the HTS and attached lenses. There is a limit to what the software will correct when a lens reaches it limits.
Pete
18mm shift - half the height of a 39MP sensor. 10° Tilt. 90° Rotation.
I would suggest testing it yourself and have the chance to be overwhelmed.
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optically,
i was not really impressed by the (very expensive) 40mm lens. it has a lot of distorsion, is pretty soft
(with shift) and all in all not really superior (optically) to the nikon 40mm PCE. the hartblei 80 and 120mm
are in a different class, much better optics then their 40mm 'brother'.
peter
That's probably when they need to think about software correction.
Nice to meet you here again, Peter. Cheers!
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To all Users of this thread
I´m always amused if people quote things about what they think, before they even read what´s written.
On our website it´s clearly described what the lenses are: http://hartblei.de/en/sr40if.htm (http://hartblei.de/en/sr40if.htm)
" It was originally constructed for the 6 x 6 format, providing huge quality reserves for 35mm format."
and here: http://hartblei.de/en/tech2.htm (http://hartblei.de/en/tech2.htm)
"Hartblei Superrotators are the only lenses for 35 mm cameras that have been originally constructed for
medium format cameras. Using a longer distance (at least 30 mm longer) between the sensor and the
glass of the lens allows for the unique 2x360 degrees turnable Shift and Tilt mechanism.
Also the angle is more straight by which the light hits the sensor, eleminating the effects mentioned before almost completely."
The Phase One lens has a pressrelease link here (and on our first page) http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/Ph...One-895724.html (http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/Phase-One-895724.html)
Quote:"Phase One A/S today announced an exclusive strategic alliance with Hartblei to drive medium format photographic lens innovation.
The first product of this alliance is the Phase One 3.5/45 mm TS lens, based on the popular Hartblei 45 mm f/3.5 Super Rotator lens."
I fully understand that reading whole sentences is of course diffficult and Time consuming for some people..........
We have been develloping these lenses since 3 years now, first appearance of the prototypes was Photokina 2006.
They were on sale since March 2007 in a limited edition ( we had sold some of the first series to beta Customers before)
carrying the prototype label on request of Carl Zeiss, after a lot of Improvements and testing Zeiss has allowed us now to mark the lenses
HARTBLEI-Optics by Carl Zeiss.
The optical Quality is documented here http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B8B6F/Embe...FE_104966_e.pdf (http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B8B6F/EmbedTitelIntern/Distagon4_40mm_IF_CFE_104966_e/$File/Distagon4_40mm_IF_CFE_104966_e.pdf)
(we use the exact identical Lenskits originally assembled at Zeiss Oberkochen)
the MTF is documented up to Imagehight of 40mm resolving still over 90 LP/mm at F8 . The center resolution is up to 200 LP/mm.
Here is a clipout from the letter Mr. Markovich sent to me on the 26.03.09 :
"....das 40er probieren. erste beobachtung: f6.3, max shift (in alle
richtungen) = super im zentrum aber randunschaerfe. ok, besser als das
nikon PCE, aber doch nicht was ich mir erhofft hatte.comments ?"
I´ll try to translate:
"....try the 40mm.first observations:f6.3,max shift (in all directions)= Super in the center
but unsharper to border. ok better than the Nikon PCE, but not what I had hoped for. comments ?"
and here is my answer:
Hallo Herr Markowich
Das 40er hat speziell im Nahbereich (da weitwinkelkonstruktion) doch einiges an Astigmatismus und auch eine etwas wellige Bildfeldplanität.
Dies ist aber in der allgemeinen Fotografie nicht wirklich von Belang, für reine Reprozwecke sollte man aber mindestens bis f11 abblenden.
Wir haben letzte Woche erst einige neue MTF Messungen durchgeführt, dort haben wir im Zentrum bis zu 200LP/mm bei Kontrast 0,2 erreicht, der rand (höhe 30) geht dann auf etwas unter 100 runter(dies bei Blende 4), das ist nicht wirklich schlecht, natürlich immer noch keine Röntgenlithographie.........aber für Foto schon ganz nett.
translation:
Dear Mr. Markowich
The 40mm has especially on closeup (because of the wideangle construction) some Astigmatism and also some bumpy flatfield correction.
But for allpurpose Photography this is not really of matter, if you use it for pure Reproduction purposes you should use f11.
At our new MTF Measurements last week, we have got 200 lp/mm at a Contrast over 0,2, borders (at height 30) goes down to a bit under 100 (at f4), of course this is not XRay Lithography....but for Photography quite nice.
I can only invite anybody (at least in Europe ,sorry USA - if Importers want 65% from me I will prefer to sell them where WE can make a living, instead of financing someone elses Porsche)
to try the lenses themselves. We have set up a network of knowledgable dealers who will support this and answer your questions.
And help is on the way for the US also we are already talking to a good and reasonable Importer, so stay tuned to our website.
BTW yesterday we have established our new service partner Wiese Fototechnik in Hamburg who will supply extremely good service Inside the EU and we do not have to send our lenses to Kiev for Maintenance anymore.
I hope I have not overstressed the part-sentence readers now too long.
greetings from Munich
Stefan Steib CEO Hartblei Kiev/Munich
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To all Users of this thread
Stefan, I do not aim to unfairly criticize, and I wish you the best of the luck with quality control and marketing of this lens, but you seem to sweep some very real concerns under the rug with a rather general statement about near and far focus, rather than dealing directly with what have been some highly questionable results. Here is a link to a thread, and to a specific post in this thread with one (temporary) user of this lens (the Phase One variant):
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4825 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4825)
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php...amp;postcount=3 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=67076&postcount=3)
And here is a link to a strip from an image made with a P45+, vertically centered, from the left edge (he wrote right, by mistake) to about 1/3 towards the middle, which really shows how dramatically unsharp this lens got towards the center of the left edge, unshifted, untilted:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/attachment.p...mp;d=1231063918 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=10571&d=1231063918)
If that was a one-off (well, two-off, another user, in Britain I believe, had the same experience) problem, then I am happy to hear that, but I would hope that you would understand that after seeing results like that, potential customers will want more than verbal reassurance, and samples from a single lens, before blindly ordering one. Hopefully you have some more meaningful way of convincing us that the results are really good, and that the price is worth it, Zeiss stamp of approval or not.
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hi stefan,
yes, i reiterate the results of (my unscientific) tests. the hartblei 40mm just barely beats the nikon 40mm PCE
(slightly sharper in the center, rather disappointing in the edges)
but costs about 3 times as much and weighs (about) double. in fact, if i did scientifically correct tests, chances are that it gets
even downgraded. and i reiterate, the 80 and 120mm hartbleis are much better (unfortunately i have no experience with the
nikon PCE 80mm, so i cannot compare).
peter
To all Users of this thread
Here is a clipout from the letter Mr. Markovich sent to me on the 26.03.09 :
"....das 40er probieren. erste beobachtung: f6.3, max shift (in alle
richtungen) = super im zentrum aber randunschaerfe. ok, besser als das
nikon PCE, aber doch nicht was ich mir erhofft hatte.comments ?"
I´ll try to translate:
"....try the 40mm.first observations:f6.3,max shift (in all directions)= Super in the center
but unsharper to border. ok better than the Nikon PCE, but not what I had hoped for. comments ?"
and here is my answer:
Hallo Herr Markowich
Das 40er hat speziell im Nahbereich (da weitwinkelkonstruktion) doch einiges an Astigmatismus und auch eine etwas wellige Bildfeldplanität.
Dies ist aber in der allgemeinen Fotografie nicht wirklich von Belang, für reine Reprozwecke sollte man aber mindestens bis f11 abblenden.
Wir haben letzte Woche erst einige neue MTF Messungen durchgeführt, dort haben wir im Zentrum bis zu 200LP/mm bei Kontrast 0,2 erreicht, der rand (höhe 30) geht dann auf etwas unter 100 runter(dies bei Blende 4), das ist nicht wirklich schlecht, natürlich immer noch keine Röntgenlithographie.........aber für Foto schon ganz nett.
translation:
Dear Mr. Markowich
The 40mm has especially on closeup (because of the wideangle construction) some Astigmatism and also some bumpy flatfield correction.
But for allpurpose Photography this is not really of matter, if you use it for pure Reproduction purposes you should use f11.
At our new MTF Measurements last week, we have got 200 lp/mm at a Contrast over 0,2, borders (at height 30) goes down to a bit under 100 (at f4), of course this is not XRay Lithography....but for Photography quite nice.
I can only invite anybody (at least in Europe ,sorry USA - if Importers want 65% from me I will prefer to sell them where WE can make a living, instead of financing someone elses Porsche)
to try the lenses themselves. We have set up a network of knowledgable dealers who will support this and answer your questions.
And help is on the way for the US also we are already talking to a good and reasonable Importer, so stay tuned to our website.
BTW yesterday we have established our new service partner Wiese Fototechnik in Hamburg who will supply extremely good service Inside the EU and we do not have to send our lenses to Kiev for Maintenance anymore.
I hope I have not overstressed the part-sentence readers now too long.
greetings from Munich
Stefan Steib CEO Hartblei Kiev/Munich
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Carsten
first of all: This is another lens. It is the Russian version 3,5/45mm , here we are speaking of the 4/40mmIF Zeiss Distagon and as I said before ,
everybody who reads whole sentences and even Numbers and Names is probably blessed.
and maybe you should also quote Tashleys last post (this is the same guy who was shouting about how bad the 45TS was):
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5808 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5808)
He admits by himself that he probably did misfocus, and he is using an old version of the not improved lens now he got somewhere......
So you still believe anything you read in the internet ?
I can only ask anybody to try it and then talk about it.
Not the "I heard somebody said he knows somebody who didn ´t like it".....stuff
greetings from Munich
Stefan
Stefan, I do not aim to unfairly criticize, and I wish you the best of the luck with quality control and marketing of this lens, but you seem to sweep some very real concerns under the rug with a rather general statement about near and far focus, rather than dealing directly with what have been some highly questionable results. Here is a link to a thread, and to a specific post in this thread with one (temporary) user of this lens (the Phase One variant):
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4825 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4825)
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php...amp;postcount=3 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php?p=67076&postcount=3)
And here is a link to a strip from an image made with a P45+, vertically centered, from the left edge (he wrote right, by mistake) to about 1/3 towards the middle, which really shows how dramatically unsharp this lens got towards the center of the left edge, unshifted, untilted:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/attachment.p...mp;d=1231063918 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=10571&d=1231063918)
If that was a one-off (well, two-off, another user, in Britain I believe, had the same experience) problem, then I am happy to hear that, but I would hope that you would understand that after seeing results like that, potential customers will want more than verbal reassurance, and samples from a single lens, before blindly ordering one. Hopefully you have some more meaningful way of convincing us that the results are really good, and that the price is worth it, Zeiss stamp of approval or not.
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Dear Mr. Markowich
I have used an MTF Measurement device for my numbers, this is probably as scientific as it can be.
A testtable is the wrong test for this lens. And all of these highend Bodies now offer LiveVideo zoomed focus.
It is simply very difficult to focus right with a highend lens and a highend(over 20mp) body.
For tests I use only a 15 kg Benbo MK5 , Novoflex heads, a TC80N release and Mirror up for my 5DII and all the best stuff I can get to
get sharp images, then I focus series with a focusing rail (Novoflex Castel Cross Q) and then I know I will get a nice and sharp one.
But this is no different to what was needed for an 8x10 " so I feel at home there.
If somebody does not believe this here is a link to a rawfile Canon 1 DsII shot with the Hartblei 4/40mmIF.
http://www.hartblei.eu/download/food.CR2 (http://www.hartblei.eu/download/food.CR2)
try to do this with another lens and then we talk.
greetings from Munich
hi stefan,
yes, i reiterate the results of (my unscientific) tests. the hartblei 40mm just barely beats the nikon 40mm PCE
(slightly sharper in the center, rather disappointing in the edges)
but costs about 3 times as much and weighs (about) double. in fact, if i did scientifically correct tests, chances are that it gets
even downgraded. and i reiterate, the 80 and 120mm hartbleis are much better (unfortunately i have no experience with the
nikon PCE 80mm, so i cannot compare).
peter
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stefan,
i use D3x with -of course- live view, and yes, zooming in all the way to get the focus right. and mirror up, timer 10s and so on.
very sturdy tripod and so on (if it is sharp in the center, there is no problem, right?)
and again, i get what i described. after all, the nikon PCE 45mm does an admirable job in comparism to the three times more expensive and
double weight hartblei 40mm.
i do like your 80 and 120mm, though,
peter
Dear Mr. Markowich
I have used an MTF Measurement device for my numbers, this is probably as scientific as it can be.
A testtable is the wrong test for this lens. And all of these highend Bodies now offer LiveVideo zoomed focus.
It is simply very difficult to focus right with a highend lens and a highend(over 20mp) body.
For tests I use only a 15 kg Benbo MK5 , Novoflex heads, a TC80N release and Mirror up for my 5DII and all the best stuff I can get to
get sharp images, then I focus series with a focusing rail (Novoflex Castel Cross Q) and then I know I will get a nice and sharp one.
But this is no different to what was needed for an 8x10 " so I feel at home there.
If somebody does not believe this here is a link to a rawfile Canon 1 DsII shot with the Hartblei 4/40mmIF.
http://www.hartblei.eu/download/food.CR2 (http://www.hartblei.eu/download/food.CR2)
try to do this with another lens and then we talk.
greetings from Munich
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Carsten
first of all: This is another lens. It is the Russian version 3,5/45mm , here we are speaking of the 4/40mmIF Zeiss Distagon
As I did mention, it is the Phase One version. I do not know enough about the business end of it all to know if this is significant in some way, but we are not talking about an original Hartblei (of which I own the 45/3.5 and it does better than the demonstrated results).
and maybe you should also quote Tashleys last post (this is the same guy who was shouting about how bad the 45TS was):
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5808 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5808)
He admits by himself that he probably did misfocus, and he is using an old version of the not improved lens now he got somewhere......
So you still believe anything you read in the internet ?
No, absolutely not. In this case, I have known and conversed with Tim Ashley for a few years now, and I know how amazingly fair he is (to a fault), and how hard to tries to come up with plausible explanations for why things aren't working out, but the photo I posted a link to tells a story of its own: it is sharp nearer the center, and totally useless near the edges, and this is unshifted and untilted. Misfocus or not, the photo is taken square on, and shows a sharpness differential which it is not possible to fix with MTF and bad focus claims.
For all your statements about reading full sentences, you still seem to think that Tim was talking about a Ukranian Hartblei. The photo in question was the Phase One. He later bought an actual Hartblei, and is having a much better experience with it, like I am, and several others.
So, to summarize, I see what Tim has done, I am familiar with his thoroughness, and I believe him: the lens was a dud. I don't believe (or hope) that all copies will be that bad, but at least one other member had an identical experience. And I don't know what connection there is between the Zeiss 40/4 and the Phase One 45/3.5. Perhaps you can explain a bit more. There seems to be two Hartblei companies these days, which is very unfortunate.
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if it is sharp in the center, there is no problem, right?
peter
Dear Mr. Markovich
sorry but this is only partly true ! It depends of which distance we are speaking of.
As I tried to explain to you in my reply, the lens is a wideangle construction an thus not optimized for
flat field correction, showing a certain amount of astigmatism at close focus.You can see this in the Zeiss data sheet on their MTFs.
So in reality if you want to get best sharpness for flatfield reproductions (which are for example used on the
ISO 12233 Test Chart performed MTF Measurements-eg Imatest) you need to defocus the center Like a ring backwards.
This changes from closeup to infinity where this is normal behaviour.
But didn´t you ever ask yourself why many of the new cameras have so heavy focusing problems ?
It´s not only because of sensor misjudgments, it is a very complex function of a) changing focal lenght b ) used aperture and resulting diffraction
and c) mechanical tolerances too ( I only say improper Bajonet mounts......)
greetings from Munich
Stefan Steib
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there.
If somebody does not believe this here is a link to a rawfile Canon 1 DsII shot with the Hartblei 4/40mmIF.
http://www.hartblei.eu/download/food.CR2 (http://www.hartblei.eu/download/food.CR2)
try to do this with another lens and then we talk.
With all due respect, one good sample is no more statistically valid than one bad sample. I hope you are not saying that what Peter Markowich is saying is a lie... It would be much more reassuring to hear your explanation for why Peter was getting the results he got, rather than you just pointing out that your lens, and by your implication, all Hartblei-Zeiss 40/4 T/S lenses, are much better than that. Either there is a problem with that one lens, or QC is not under sufficient control.
Peter, where is that lens now?
-
Now I need to quote to my own post - again is it so difficult to read ?
The Phase One lens has a pressrelease link here (and on our first page) http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/Ph...One-895724.html (http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/Ph...One-895724.html)
Quote:"Phase One A/S today announced an exclusive strategic alliance with Hartblei to drive medium format photographic lens innovation.
The first product of this alliance is the Phase One 3.5/45 mm TS lens, based on the popular Hartblei 45 mm f/3.5 Super Rotator lens."
explanation: please read the pressrelease.
And no we are one Company and yes Tashley had the PhaseOne version for testing and now he has bought an old Hartblei version which he says is sometimes sharper than his schneider lenses.
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
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Please read my reply #35 to Peter Markowich !
I did not say he lies...................
With all due respect, one good samples is no more statistically valid than one bad sample. I hope you are not saying that what Peter Markowich is saying is a lie... It would be much more reassuring to hear your explanation for why Peter was getting the results he got, rather than you just pointing out that your lens, and by your implication, all Hartblei-Zeiss 40/4 T/S lenses, are much better than that. Either there is a problem with that one lens, or QC is not under sufficient control.
Peter, where is that lens now?
-
Please read my reply #35 to Peter Markowich !
I did not say he lies...................
No, you are right. What you said was that the lens has astigmatism and bumpy flatfield correction, and you repeatedly encouraged people to try the lens themselves, yet that is exactly what Peter did, and his description of soft corners does not match your claim of 100 lppm, which should be more than enough.
In other words, and this is what I had hoped for all along, an explanation is needed for why Peter was seeing such results, not general claims about the excellence of the lens in your hands. Or possibly, if Peter still has his copy, you could simply swap the two lenses, he will happily use the sharp copy you possess, and you can examine the soft one he had in peace and quiet and try to determine if it is performing, and if not, why.
What is really not needed is that you on the one hand try to explain away his results with bad focus or being too close, and on the other hand try to claim the lens as excellent. I am not sure if you read this forum much, but a good percentage of the posts here, perhaps even more than half, are about the discrepancies between manufacturer or dealer claims and actual reality, and you simply cannot overcome such skepticism with claims of excellence, but only with actual demonstrations of this excellence.
Telling people to buy the lens and test for themselves is not effective when the one guy who has actually done so was not happy. You need to deal with this case.
Finally, if there is really only one Hartblei company, who are the people at http://www.hartblei.com/ (http://www.hartblei.com/)? If there is only one company, then it should be possible to retrieve this crucial URL.
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Carsten
again you should read closer: I wrote TRY not BUY - quote from my post
"I can only invite anybody (at least in Europe ,sorry USA - if Importers want 65% from me I will prefer to sell them where WE can make a living, instead of financing someone elses Porsche)
to try the lenses themselves. We have set up a network of knowledgable dealers who will support this and answer your questions."
second: I had this lens in my hand recently and tested it before I sent it to Vienna. it is still available there to rent or try it.
I don´t claim anything, I offer facts and solutions for everything that I said.
And I´m still waiting for the CEO´s of Nikon or Canon to talk to Internet Fora as I do. I know sometimes I shouldn´t, because it´s not easy, but I have done sysoping and support work to several fora eg. Compuserve and AOL for Adobe (photoshop), Colormanagement and Apple/Aperture, so I still want to talk to my customers because it´s really important !
About Hartblei.com
Hartblei.com is unfortunately hold by Pissarenko a former partner of Hartblei.
We (Sergeji Naumenko and myself) have already asked him to give way and release the Hartblei.com. Unfortunately the website is hosted in Slovakia and though this is EU now, we are still in the process of getting a lawyer into it and do it by court (which unfortunately takes some time). Pissarenko does not have any Superrotators anymore, but as he is xxxed about this fact (as Sergeji and me are doing the Zeiss an PhaseOne Business now) obviously tries to confuse people (which for many works quite good as you can see). None of the products he sells are real hartblei anymore ,not the shift adapter, not the tilt adapter, with the exception of some old stock. So Hartblei.com is complete scam now.
This is sad but the current situation.
greetings from Munich
Stefan
No, you are right. What you said was that the lens has astigmatism and bumpy flatfield correction, and you repeatedly encouraged people to try the lens themselves, yet that is exactly what Peter did, and his description of soft corners does not match your claim of 100 lppm, which should be more than enough.
In other words, and this is what I had hoped for all along, an explanation is needed for why Peter was seeing such results, not general claims about the excellence of the lens in your hands. Or possibly, if Peter still has his copy, you could simply swap the two lenses, he will happily use the sharp copy you possess, and you can examine the soft one he had in peace and quiet and try to determine if it is performing, and if not, why.
What is really not needed is that you on the one hand try to explain away his results with bad focus or being too close, and on the other hand try to claim the lens as excellent. I am not sure if you read this forum much, but a good percentage of the posts here, perhaps even more than half, are about the discrepancies between manufacturer or dealer claims and actual reality, and you simply cannot overcome such skepticism with claims of excellence, but only with actual demonstrations of this excellence.
Telling people to buy the lens and test for themselves is not effective when the one guy who has actually done so was not happy. You need to deal with this case.
Finally, if there is really only one Hartblei company, who are the people at http://www.hartblei.com/ (http://www.hartblei.com/)? If there is only one company, then it should be possible to retrieve this crucial URL.
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Stefan,
Thank you for participating here.
When will additional focal lengths be available to fit Mamiya 645?
Billy
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Hi Billy
Sorry I can´t tell, this falls under NDA with Phase One.
But I can tell you that Hartblei is working on additional products - you can read this on my last blog entry on
http://hartblei.blogspot.com/ (http://hartblei.blogspot.com/)
especially I ask People what they think about a longer shift and tilt, namely a 4/180 Sonnar ( which is legendary)
and which could be a gift for all Studio Photographers doing cars, Bicycles, Whiteware.......but also for closeup and Nature Photography,
In short everything that needs more distance and a steeper perspective.
For me that has even more priority than a new wideangle (28mm) Hartblei lens.
So if people would tell me and vote for or aginst this it would be a real help.
Greetings from Munich
Stefan,
Thank you for participating here.
When will additional focal lengths be available to fit Mamiya 645?
Billy
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With all due respect, one good sample is no more statistically valid than one bad sample. I hope you are not saying that what Peter Markowich is saying is a lie... It would be much more reassuring to hear your explanation for why Peter was getting the results he got, rather than you just pointing out that your lens, and by your implication, all Hartblei-Zeiss 40/4 T/S lenses, are much better than that. Either there is a problem with that one lens, or QC is not under sufficient control.
Peter, where is that lens now?
hi everybody,
the lenses were lent to me very generously by Andreas Tischer from the Digitalstore in Vienna. they are back there.
and, stefan, as far as future products are concerned: i really would love a 24mm (or 28mm) TS lens, which improves
the ok-but-not-so-great performance of the nikon 24mm PCE. possibly optimized for architecture and landscape.
but, of course, the majority might have other concerns.
peter
-
Okay, I feel now that there is some progress on the core issue, the performance of the lens.
second: I had this lens in my hand recently and tested it before I sent it to Vienna. it is still available there to rent or try it.
So, you mean the same copy which Peter has tried? If so, did you find any differences between the performance of that copy and the "master" copy which you presumably have? In other words, could you confirm what Peter wrote, and the problem is only at "too close" distances?
About Hartblei.com
Hartblei.com is unfortunately hold by Pissarenko a former partner of Hartblei.
Well, hopefully you are able to get the URL. The current situation is very confusing, as this was the original URL, so it is the one people have bookmarked.
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actually, my tests were at medium and large distances.
peter
Okay, I feel now that there is some progress on the core issue, the performance of the lens.
So, you mean the same copy which Peter has tried? If so, did you find any differences between the performance of that copy and the "master" copy which you presumably have? In other words, could you confirm what Peter wrote, and the problem is only at "too close" distances?
Well, hopefully you are able to get the URL. The current situation is very confusing, as this was the original URL, so it is the one people have bookmarked.
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actually, my tests were at medium and large distances.
Well, then I don't understand Stefan's answer to you, in which he insinuates that the problem is largely a close-focus phenomenon. Rather, the "Astigmatism and also some bumpy flatfield correction" has an effect at all distances then, which is quite disappointing for a 6k lens. That is, unless there was a problem with that particular copy, but Stefan appears to deny that.
Anyway, I am done with this thread. I find it disappointing that it is so hard to get a straight answer to the question of what went wrong with the lens in your tests. Do you have a sample which you could post, to make this thread a good reference point in the future?
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I am surprised that the 40mm does not perform well on the medium and long distances. As I know from the Zeiss people, the Hartblei 4/40 mm is basically the relatively new 4/40mmIF Zeiss Distagon design. I own the Distagon 4/40 as a Sinaron 40 AF version (for Sinar-M) and it is my best 40 mm lens.
Yes, it is not the best for reproduction at close distances and Stefan's advise to stop down the lens to f11-16 is a sound one. Stopped down my 4/40mm Distagon can be used for reproduction and is used at least once a week.
Yevgeny
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Well, then I don't understand Stefan's answer to you, in which he insinuates that the problem is largely a close-focus phenomenon. Rather, the "Astigmatism and also some bumpy flatfield correction" has an effect at all distances then, which is quite disappointing for a 6k lens. That is, unless there was a problem with that particular copy, but Stefan appears to deny that.
Anyway, I am done with this thread. I find it disappointing that it is so hard to get a straight answer to the question of what went wrong with the lens in your tests. Do you have a sample which you could post, to make this thread a good reference point in the future?
if you email me, i shall send you files. i just do not want to downscale them to 2mb and get into jpg compression issues etc.
peter
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Hi Peter
could you just CC the files you spoke about with Carsten send to me also so I can take a look ?
TIA
Stefan
hi everybody,
the lenses were lent to me very generously by Andreas Tischer from the Digitalstore in Vienna. they are back there.
and, stefan, as far as future products are concerned: i really would love a 24mm (or 28mm) TS lens, which improves
the ok-but-not-so-great performance of the nikon 24mm PCE. possibly optimized for architecture and landscape.
but, of course, the majority might have other concerns.
peter
-
cts and solutions for everything that I said.
And I´m still waiting for the CEO´s of Nikon or Canon to talk to Internet Fora as I do. I know sometimes I shouldn´t, because it´s not easy, but I have done sysoping and support work to several fora eg. Compuserve and AOL for Adobe (photoshop), Colormanagement and Apple/Aperture, so I still want to talk to my customers because it´s really important !
this is really funny ! you compare your one man show with the CEO`s of nikon and canon
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CSP
As you may have heard before: Size doesn´t matter !
I know a lot of people are complaining about information policy of larger companies.
We don´t do that, and to make you sleep better also, no I´m not superman building everything here in my kitchen.
There are about 25 people working for and with Hartblei, if we take the external providers like Zeiss Elox, all Metal works,
UPS shipment office Laue which we use exclusively, and our new service in Hamburg, then it´s probably good over 40 who make, build, ship and maintain our lenses.
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
this is really funny ! you compare your one man show with the CEO`s of nikon and canon
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CSP
As you may have heard before: Size doesn´t matter !
I know a lot of people are complaining about information policy of larger companies.
We don´t do that, and to make you sleep better also, no I´m not superman building everything here in my kitchen.
There are about 25 people working for and with Hartblei, if we take the external providers like Zeiss Elox, all Metal works,
UPS shipment office Laue which we use exclusively, and our new service in Hamburg, then it´s probably good over 40 who make, build, ship and maintain our lenses.
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
good idea, thank you i have never seen this that way i will start to call myself CEO too because when i count all the people who work for me or with me from my housekeeper to my assistant i'm as big as your company and i did not even include the bike messengers ;-)
your products are pricy so i think it is in the interest of potential buyers to know who the company is they deal with, this becomes more important
if problems occur in the future and you are maybe back to photography and training. your website does not give any
information who hartblei.de really is.
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Yevgeny
I´m also a bit puzzled. This lens is biting sharp, even better than the 120 Makro.
some more links to take a look:
http://www.hartblei.de/downloads/Hartblei_...mshift_down.jpg (http://www.hartblei.de/downloads/Hartblei_40mm_F11_10mmshift_down.jpg)
=old 5d , Tripod , TC-80N.
http://www.hartblei.de/downloads/Hartblei_40mm_f16_4sec.jpg (http://www.hartblei.de/downloads/Hartblei_40mm_f16_4sec.jpg)
=old 5d , Tripod , TC-80N.
http://www.hartblei.de/downloads/Hartblei_40mm_f16.jpg (http://www.hartblei.de/downloads/Hartblei_40mm_f16.jpg)
=new 5 DII with Tungsten lights of a studioflash
I am surprised that the 40mm does not perform well on the medium and long distances. As I know from the Zeiss people, the Hartblei 4/40 mm is basically the relatively new 4/40mmIF Zeiss Distagon design. I own the Distagon 4/40 as a Sinaron 40 AF version (for Sinar-M) and it is my best 40 mm lens.
Yes, it is not the best for reproduction at close distances and Stefan's advise to stop down the lens to f11-16 is a sound one. Stopped down my 4/40mm Distagon can be used for reproduction and is used at least once a week.
Yevgeny
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Wow, the last one on a 5D2 looks very nice.
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Maybe you should klick on "about us "
http://hartblei.de/en/about.htm (http://hartblei.de/en/about.htm)
Stefan
good idea, thank you i have never seen this that way i will start to call myself CEO too because when i count all the people who work for me or with me from my housekeeper to my assistant i'm as big as your company and i did not even include the bike messengers ;-)
your products are pricy so i think it is in the interest of potential buyers to know who the company is they deal with, this becomes more important
if problems occur in the future and you are maybe back to photography and training. your website does not give any
information who hartblei.de really is.
-
When I look at any of these lenses, I am thrown off by the price and I'm also suspicious of it.
A couple of years ago, I was considering the purchase of a 45mm Hartblei Super Rotator. Michael Foreman in Atlanta was the importer and offered one to me for around $750-$850 if I recall. (I think the official price was about $1000, but they were available on Ebay for less than that.) But I ended up buying the Canon 45 TS-E for more money as I wanted the auto aperture linkage.
Now that Phase One is selling them for $3990, what is different to justify more than a four fold increase in price? Especially considering that Luminous Landscape had a review of one that cost $1000 and praised it.
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Alan
you have answered your question partly by yourself:
as people probably know Phase One and trust them there is no more reason to be "suspicious" .
The worldwide PhaseOne dealers carry the lenses and showcase them, you can try them before you buy, you have full Guarantee.
Additionally there were numerous improvements done to the lens, starting from the mechanics, the new Aperture with 12 blades, the Zeiss made Surface Eloxed,
new antiflare coatings and selected lenses as well as a new bajonet mount adapted to the Mamiya 645 AF proportions with better precision.
Further: It is the only lens in the Market who has medium Format TS and Superrotation, there simply isn´t any competiton -
beside the Hasselblad HTS which is a whole diffferent concept and also costing several thousand dollars and working only on the Hx bodies.
maybe you should go to a PhaseOne dealer and take one in your hand and then you could speak about it.
I can also tell you that end of last year a contax version of the old Superrotator was sold on Ebay used for 2070 $.
maybe it´s because there is a Market and people looking for this and also because the old Superrotators were ridiculously sold under value.
If someone with a limited resource (our lenses) goes to a mass market (Ebay) this is probably the most stupid move you can make to achieve a fair price.
We have changed that, this is called Product Placement and free trade, this was how America and the rest of the western world was built - you remember ?
Nobody forces you to buy one, so why are you complaining ?
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
When I look at any of these lenses, I am thrown off by the price and I'm also suspicious of it.
A couple of years ago, I was considering the purchase of a 45mm Hartblei Super Rotator. Michael Foreman in Atlanta was the importer and offered one to me for around $750-$850 if I recall. (I think the official price was about $1000, but they were available on Ebay for less than that.) But I ended up buying the Canon 45 TS-E for more money as I wanted the auto aperture linkage.
Now that Phase One is selling them for $3990, what is different to justify more than a four fold increase in price? Especially considering that Luminous Landscape had a review of one that cost $1000 and praised it.
-
The worldwide PhaseOne dealers carry the lenses and showcase them, you can try them before you buy, you have full Guarantee.
Additionally there were numerous improvements done to the lens, starting from the mechanics, the new Aperture with 12 blades, the Zeiss made Surface Eloxed,
new antiflare coatings and selected lenses as well as a new bajonet mount adapted to the Mamiya 645 AF proportions with better precision.
Further: It is the only lens in the Market who has medium Format TS and Superrotation, there simply isn´t any competiton -
beside the Hasselblad HTS which is a whole diffferent concept and also costing several thousand dollars and working only on the Hx bodies.
Sorry Stefan, you may be a fine gentleman, but I'm not buying what you are saying. I've been following the Kiev, Hartblei story for a long time and have a number of the products. (Including six lenses.)
OK, Michael told me I could return it if I didn't like it. So nothing new about the guarantee. I bought a 55mm shift from him and was happy. It was not very expensive. Additionally, there is not much to go wrong with a manual focus manual diaphragm lens, unless you drop it.
Do the improvements warrant a 4+ fold increase in price? I think the fact that Hartblei realized there could be a demand, and the lack of competition are the most telling in your post. Especially among MF digital photographers who are now used to paying tens of thousands for digital backs and several thousand for a lens. What about the 55mm, 65mm, 80mm, and 120mm. Are these still available and what do they cost/ They're on the Hartblei site I understand that these use the glass and lens designs mostly from Arsenal - lenses that are very inexpensive. Doesn't the Hartblei 80mm SuperRotator use the 80mm Arsat lens? Aren't all the Hartblei lenses repackaged Arsats? (Ecept for the 3 new Zeiss models.) Doesn't Hartblei sell this 80mm Arsat lens directly for $60. Why are the shift lenses so much less expensive than the Super Rotators (that you say are out of stock on the Hartblei web site.)
Here is the pricing that is listed on the Hartblei web site:
MC PCS Arsat 45mm / f=3.5 Shift
w/ Pentacon Six or Kiev 88 lens mount $295
MC PCS Arsat 55mm / f=4.5 Shift
w/ Pentacon Six lens mount $395
MC PCS Arsat 65mm / f=3.5 Shift
w/ Pentacon Six or Kiev 88 lens mount $295
MC Arsat 80mm / f=2.8 Normal
w/ Pentacon Six or Kiev 88 lens mount $60
Is the performance of these very inexpensive lenses substantially different from the ones that are in the - no longer available- SuperRotator mounts? Inquiring minds want to know.
So the 45mm shift lens (no tilt) lens is $295, but when you put it in the SuperRotator mount, improve the coating and change it to a Mamiya mount, and sell it through Phase One, the $3990 price is justified? I notice the Hartblei site says the lenses can be used on Mamiyas and Contax cameras. Is this only via the $45 adapter, or are they sold in those mounts? By the way, all Pentacon mounted lenses can work on Canon, Nikon and other cameras via an adapter - $45 adapter?
Also note there is a simple $85 shift adapter that lets you use the Pentacon Mount medium format lenses as shift lenses on 35mm cameras.
Here's a link to the Hartblei price list:
http://www.hartblei.com/price_list.htm (http://www.hartblei.com/price_list.htm)
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Alan
This is very simple to answer:
Hartblei.com sadly is only scam today. (We are working to get the domain back, but actually I concentrate now on making good products instead of paying lawyers).
They do not have any real Hartblei lenses anymore. The "Hartblei" tilt and "Hartblei" shift adapters are not made by Hartblei.
The quality of these products is poor and we have nothing to do with them.
Their pricelist is pure hot air, these lenses are not even built anymore and this is the reason why they state on their "pricelist" (maybe wishlist is the better name for it) they don´t have any.........
So the point is, you are speaking of the past. Arsenal does not build any lenses anymore, so also Arsat will dry out sooner or later.
Arsenal and other connected factories have gone bankrupt because they were selling their stuff e.g. to ebay customers for Phantasy prices not even covering their costs, driven by some dealers, who bought
discount for fast bucks and sold the stuff like carpets. You liked that ?
additionaly please read post number 8 of this thread.
What do you think we have done the last 3 years ? The new range of products has nothing to do with the old stuff.
If you would see one of the new lenses you would understand.
We have made a clear cut, Mike Fourman is out and has no whatsoever Hartblei Products to sell anymore.
The other ukrainian and russian dealers on Ebay have only some old stock left which they now try to sell for double price (as a result of our work!)
We have decided that good work of Ukrainian Engineers and Mechanics is as valuable as anwhere else in the world.
Kiev is a pretty expensive City now, the time of bargains and USSR leftover auctions is over.
Our workers get fair payment for their work and will have a perspective for a future product devellopment and job stability.
we will not go back to the old nonsense.
Stefan
Sorry Stefan, you may be a fine gentleman, but I'm not buying what you are saying. I've been following the Kiev, Hartblei story for a long time and have a number of the products. (Including six lenses.)
OK, Michael told me I could return it if I didn't like it. So nothing new about the guarantee. I bought a 55mm shift from him and was happy. It was not very expensive. Additionally, there is not much to go wrong with a manual focus manual diaphragm lens, unless you drop it.
Do the improvements warrant a 4+ fold increase in price? I think the fact that Hartblei realized there could be a demand, and the lack of competition are the most telling in your post. Especially among MF digital photographers who are now used to paying tens of thousands for digital backs and several thousand for a lens. What about the 55mm, 65mm, 80mm, and 120mm. Are these still available and what do they cost/ They're on the Hartblei site I understand that these use the glass and lens designs mostly from Arsenal - lenses that are very inexpensive. Doesn't the Hartblei 80mm SuperRotator use the 80mm Arsat lens? Aren't all the Hartblei lenses repackaged Arsats? (Ecept for the 3 new Zeiss models.) Doesn't Hartblei sell this 80mm Arsat lens directly for $60. Why are the shift lenses so much less expensive than the Super Rotators (that you say are out of stock on the Hartblei web site.)
Here is the pricing that is listed on the Hartblei web site:
MC PCS Arsat 45mm / f=3.5 Shift
w/ Pentacon Six or Kiev 88 lens mount $295
MC PCS Arsat 55mm / f=4.5 Shift
w/ Pentacon Six lens mount $395
MC PCS Arsat 65mm / f=3.5 Shift
w/ Pentacon Six or Kiev 88 lens mount $295
MC Arsat 80mm / f=2.8 Normal
w/ Pentacon Six or Kiev 88 lens mount $60
Is the performance of these very inexpensive lenses substantially different from the ones that are in the - no longer available- SuperRotator mounts? Inquiring minds want to know.
So the 45mm shift lens (no tilt) lens is $295, but when you put it in the SuperRotator mount, improve the coating and change it to a Mamiya mount, and sell it through Phase One, the $3990 price is justified? I notice the Hartblei site says the lenses can be used on Mamiyas and Contax cameras. Is this only via the $45 adapter, or are they sold in those mounts? By the way, all Pentacon mounted lenses can work on Canon, Nikon and other cameras via an adapter - $45 adapter?
Also note there is a simple $85 shift adapter that lets you use the Pentacon Mount medium format lenses as shift lenses on 35mm cameras.
Here's a link to the Hartblei price list:
http://www.hartblei.com/price_list.htm (http://www.hartblei.com/price_list.htm)
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Maybe you should klick on "about us "
http://hartblei.de/en/about.htm (http://hartblei.de/en/about.htm)
Stefan
this explains nothing, who is hartblei kiev not even an adress is on your site ? are you the ceo of the ukraine company or of you small german bussiness ?
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Stefan,
May I ask you a question?
Is the P1 Superrotator for Phamiya still a combination of pretty old Ukrainian or Lytkarino (Moscow Region) Glass and your excellent German mechanics, the new Aperture with 12 blades, the Zeiss made Surface Eloxed,etc?
Thank you,
Yevgeny
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Quote from my Website:
Steib was sure that the use of Carl Zeiss optics would create an incredible demand on the global market for professional lenses. So Sergeji Nauminko (Kiev, Construction and Development) and Stefan Steib (Munich, Concept, Sales, PR and Marketing), decided to restructure Hartblei to achieve best possible results for this task.
The address in Kiev has been on our former order form so it´s no secret : Hartblei - Sergeji Naumenko Ul. Panasa-Mirnogo, 11/60 Kiev Ukraina
Sergeji and me got 50 % each from Hartblei - so we are equal partners.
BTW who are you- can we get a name from you ? Or do you prefer to stay anonymous "CSP" ?
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
this explains nothing, who is hartblei kiev not even an adress is on your site ? are you the ceo of the ukraine company or of you small german bussiness ?
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BTW who are you- can we get a name from you ? Or do you prefer to stay anonymous "CSP" ?
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
I have nothing to do with the thread above so far, but do think that we collectively trust each other more than we trust salesmen. It would be wonderful if you lent a lens or two to somebody we can trust. CarstenW in particular is well known so it would have been nice if he had positive things to say about your lens.
Edmund
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Well my 55mm Arsat Shift lens is quite good, very well made, with a smooth and precise shifting mechanism. And it cost about $350 if I recall.
Here are shift and tilt options from Zoerk.
http://www.zoerk.com/Zoerk%20info/product_guide_current.pdf (http://www.zoerk.com/Zoerk%20info/product_guide_current.pdf)
I called Kiev USA who also used to sell the various shift lenses and Hartblei SuperRotators. I do not know if this is true but they told me that the Kiev Camera and Arsenal lens plants have shut down. They believe that Hartblei bought up many of the remaining lenses for use in their SuperRotator mounts. So if true, this could explain the price jump and why the 55mm and longer SuperRotator models are not available. I presume once the 45mm SuperRotators have been sold, that's it. Hence the need for the Zeiss lens modules. Unless the Arsenal lens factory has not actually closed or if someone else is making the lenses.)
As for the benefits of any special coating - I still have a 35mm PC Nikkor that has an old coating - not super-multicoated. I use it all the time and it is great. I had Zeiss Hasselblad lenses before they came out with the TStar coating and later I had TStar versions of the same lenses on my Rollei. I didn't see much difference plus the lens price did not jump when the TStar coating came out.
Regarding the new Hartblei lenses with the Zeiss modules - what is the image circle of each lens and how much movement would there be on a Mamiya using a 36x48mm back? Or are these lenses just for use on 35mm cameras?
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No Problem- we have dealers all over Germany , they all have demolenses. This is exactly what I say from the beginning.
So I really wonder why people preferre to talk about adam and eve instead of taking a look by themselves.
anyone is free to contact me s.steib@hartblei.de and incase he has a problem getting a lens we will arrange something.
greetings from Munich
Stefan
I have nothing to do with the thread above so far, but do think that we collectively trust each other more than we trust salesmen. It would be wonderful if you lent a lens or two to somebody we can trust. CarstenW in particular is well known so it would have been nice if he had positive things to say about your lens.
Edmund
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It is an improved version- the glass was made in Ukraine, but got electronic measurements, the very good Hartblei Multicoatings and was handpicked 1 out of around 5-6 kits, as the rest were not good enough for us.
Stefan
Stefan,
May I ask you a question?
Is the P1 Superrotator for Phamiya still a combination of pretty old Ukrainian or Lytkarino (Moscow Region) Glass and your excellent German mechanics, the new Aperture with 12 blades, the Zeiss made Surface Eloxed,etc?
Thank you,
Yevgeny
-
I have nothing to do with the thread above so far, but do think that we collectively trust each other more than we trust salesmen. It would be wonderful if you lent a lens or two to somebody we can trust. CarstenW in particular is well known so it would have been nice if he had positive things to say about your lens.
Edmund
That is very nice of you to say (do you really mean that, or was it a joke?), but although I have a critical mind (*cough*), I am no pro photographer. I am happy with my photography, but I don't measure up to half of the people around here. I currently own both Hasselblad V and Contax 645, but no digital back yet, so I cannot even test properly. I don't know half the photographers around here, but two people whose judgement I would trust are Jack Flesher and Tim Ashley, both of whom I have observed and conversed with over time, and know to be fair and balanced, and good photographers to boot. They could both test a Phase One Super-rotator. For the 35mm FF versions, I would nominate Alan Goldberg, who knows tilt and shift as much as anyone.
Of course, if anyone could get Rainer Viertlböck to test one, the issue could be closed once and for all. He is a top-notch architectural photographer, one of the very best, and is also very fair, as far as I can see. But I don't know if he still has a camera it would fit on.
I would never choose someone opiniated and loud-mouthed like me
However, I think the idea is good. If someone on this board could get ahold of one and test it properly, we could all benefit from the knowledge.
Stefan, I think I missed this, but someone pointed out to me in private that you believe that the lens Peter tested was flawed? That would probably make a lot of people feel better about the lens than the semi-denial which I have perceived. Every superb lens has the occasional bad copy, but if the company works with the customers until they get a good one, then reservations evaporate.
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Alan
Our Zeiss lenses are 35mm exclusively! Just imagine where there was the Blads mirror there is our TS Mechanism now.
There is just on exception: Alpa,Sylvestri and Sinarcam "Framecameras" with DSLR mounts can use our lenses very nicely.
Infact I have one customer - Arnold Debus-featured on our website-> Customers who does most of the BMW Motocycles here in Munich.
He uses a Sinarcam and a multishot Sinarback with our full kit and he is very happy with shift and Tilt though he uses the large chip.
Actually all the blad lenses from Zeiss hav close to 90mm Imagecircle- their MTF´s are all up to 40mm height,
the 35mm Full Format Dslr´s use only about a max of 65mm even with a combination of Shift and tilt from this,
so we move exclusively in the sweetspot of the lenses.
There is only one limit, with the Nikon F mount the 120mm at full closeup (1:4) and full shift AND tilt will have vignetting from the bajonett, the Canon version doesn´t.
About the lenses availability : now you got the point. We have some stock, if those are gone it´s over ! With Carl Zeiss we are very happy to have such a nice and valuable replacement/improvement for the russian versions.
Also remember the Phase One press release about our Cooperation and this is the first lens that we will do together.....
We are also already talking with Mamiya for the 28mm/645 lenskit, first sample is in Kiev already, which we will use for our new wideangle. (late autumn!)
Stefan
Well my 55mm Arsat Shift lens is quite good, very well made, with a smooth and precise shifting mechanism. And it cost about $350 if I recall.
Here are shift and tilt options from Zoerk.
http://www.zoerk.com/Zoerk%20info/product_guide_current.pdf (http://www.zoerk.com/Zoerk%20info/product_guide_current.pdf)
I called Kiev USA who also used to sell the various shift lenses and Hartblei SuperRotators. I do not know if this is true but they told me that the Kiev Camera and Arsenal lens plants have shut down. They believe that Hartblei bought up many of the remaining lenses for use in their SuperRotator mounts. So if true, this could explain the price jump and why the 55mm and longer SuperRotator models are not available. I presume once the 45mm SuperRotators have been sold, that's it. Hence the need for the Zeiss lens modules. Unless the Arsenal lens factory has not actually closed or if someone else is making the lenses.)
As for the benefits of any special coating - I still have a 35mm PC Nikkor that has an old coating - not super-multicoated. I use it all the time and it is great. I had Zeiss Hasselblad lenses before they came out with the TStar coating and later I had TStar versions of the same lenses on my Rollei. I didn't see much difference plus the lens price did not jump when the TStar coating came out.
Regarding the new Hartblei lenses with the Zeiss modules - what is the image circle of each lens and how much movement would there be on a Mamiya using a 36x48mm back? Or are these lenses just for use on 35mm cameras?
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It is an improved version- the glass was made in Ukraine, but got electronic measurements, the very good Hartblei Multicoatings and was handpicked 1 out of around 5-6 kits, as the rest were not good enough for us.
Stefan
Stefan,
Is it possible to get one of the new lenses in the Contax mount or is this only "specific" to Phase/Mamiya (notice I didn't say locked out, just specific)?
thx.
B
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It is an improved version- the glass was made in Ukraine, but got electronic measurements, the very good Hartblei Multicoatings and was handpicked 1 out of around 5-6 kits, as the rest were not good enough for us.
Stefan
Stefan,
Is it possible to get one of the new lenses in the Contax mount or is this only "specific" to Phase/Mamiya (notice I didn't say locked out, just specific)?
thx.
B
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I owned and used the 45mm Tilt Shift Hartblei for 645. I had it mounted onto the Contax 645. I also owned and used the rarish 65mm Hartblei for Contax 645. I guess it all depends how a person uses a lens, and how quickly they need it to move, and how intuitive it is in their hands.
Before that, I owned and used all three Canon T/S lenses, and in actual shooting -- (No MTF charts here, folks -- actual photography for money, under pressure) -- I found the Hartbleis to be very awkward to use, and very slow to move into position, compared to the incredibly easy to use Canons. The first time I used the 45, honestly, the first thought I had was, "You've got to be kidding me".
My suggestion for anyone considering these lipsticked Hartbleis is to make damn sure you have a No Questions Asked return policy. I'm sure, under ideal conditions, in a 72 degree climate controlled studio with iTunes running in the background, a person might say that the Hartbleis are just fine. But I just found that, with that dark viewfinder in the Contax 645, and with the max Fstop of the Hartbleis, they were VERY hard to focus, even not tilted or shifted. (Remember too -- it's Manual Focus only).
And then, you're out their at sunrise or sunset, trying to twist those things into some kind of "creative" position, and then the depth of field is inches, and then the dark Contax viewfinder -- well, it was not ideal at all.
So just be forewarned -- especially at these new price tags that they're asking. Make sure it works for you, BEFORE the check clears.
Just one opinion.
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Carsten
I will check back with Digitalstore Vienna what happened there. If necessary I will have sent the lens back to me to munich and we will test it.
I will send a test 4/120mmMakro sample to DPreview.com mid April, and also Diglloyd.com will get a complete set. If this is calming you guys down, I think especially Lloyd is very carefully in about what we writes.
Maybe when the lenses are in California anyway, also Michael Reichmann could get them for a while.
I know the lenses are difficult to use if you are not really looking into it. I do not make anybody any reproaches, as I know it needs a little until you get the feeling in your fingertips about how the superrotators tick.
But once you get it, it´s like riding a bike, not much different from back then in old times when I used my zProfia8/10" blind and knew exactly how it bent down with which lens or what tilt to use for which angle.
I can only say I can flatten people with the output from these lenses now, I still have to use a D3x but I´m already quite speechless sometimes when I open stuff in Aperture from my 5DII.
If I remember back to my Leaf DCB´s or my Dicomed Bigshot, this is now way beyond what the 3xBigshot was offering for 100000 bucks so it´s so nice how technology evolves.
Stefan
That is very nice of you to say (do you really mean that, or was it a joke?), but although I have a critical mind (*cough*), I am no pro photographer. I am happy with my photography, but I don't measure up to half of the people around here. I currently own both Hasselblad V and Contax 645, but no digital back yet, so I cannot even test properly. I don't know half the photographers around here, but two people whose judgement I would trust are Jack Flesher and Tim Ashley, both of whom I have observed and conversed with over time, and know to be fair and balanced, and good photographers to boot. They could both test a Phase One Super-rotator. For the 35mm FF versions, I would nominate Alan Goldberg, who knows tilt and shift as much as anyone.
Of course, if anyone could get Rainer Viertlböck to test one, the issue could be closed once and for all. He is a top-notch architectural photographer, one of the very best, and is also very fair, as far as I can see. But I don't know if he still has a camera it would fit on.
I would never choose someone opiniated and loud-mouthed like me
However, I think the idea is good. If someone on this board could get ahold of one and test it properly, we could all benefit from the knowledge.
Stefan, I think I missed this, but someone pointed out to me in private that you believe that the lens Peter tested was flawed? That would probably make a lot of people feel better about the lens than the semi-denial which I have perceived. Every superb lens has the occasional bad copy, but if the company works with the customers until they get a good one, then reservations evaporate.
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B
we are short on lenses, there is a backorder already from Phase One and we have to fulfill the Phase Customers first, but we had spoken with Espen Beck/PhaseOne
that later on, if demand for Contax is definitely materializing in orders we could also make some for Contax. But these also would be sold through Phase One.
Stefan
Stefan,
Is it possible to get one of the new lenses in the Contax mount or is this only "specific" to Phase/Mamiya (notice I didn't say locked out, just specific)?
thx.
B
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B
we are short on lenses, there is a backorder already from Phase One and we have to fulfill the Phase Customers first, but we had spoken with Espen Beck/PhaseOne
that later on, if demand for Contax is definitely materializing in orders we could also make some for Contax. But these also would be sold through Phase One.
Stefan
Stefan,
I appreciate the response and maybe it's the cynic in me, but I think Phase would have about as much desire to see the Contax system evolve as Obama would enjoy seeing Bush join his cabinet as Secretary Of State.
Now one semi-serious question. I have the 45mm super rotator on a Contax and it's now as stiff as a board, hasn't taken any hits, or any rough abuse.
Where do I get this serviced?
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Stefan,
Thank you.
I asked our Phase one dealer about the origin of the glass and they claimed it was Europian. Nothing wrong with the USSR glass, the military did the same kind of selection you do now and usualy they were able to select one of ten; the rest went to the public.
Yevgeny
It is an improved version- the glass was made in Ukraine, but got electronic measurements, the very good Hartblei Multicoatings and was handpicked 1 out of around 5-6 kits, as the rest were not good enough for us.
Stefan
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They could both test a Phase One Super-rotator. For the 35mm FF versions, I would nominate Alan Goldberg, who knows tilt and shift as much as anyone.
I think you mean me, Alan Goldstein. If so, thanks for the recommendation. I have the Canon 24 and 45 TSE lenses as well as the older Nikon 35 and 28 PC lenses, plus the Arsat 55 shift and an Arsat 80 tilt/shift. I'm planning to get the new Canon 17 and 24 TSEs once they are available and this should be the ultimate solution for my wide angle tilt shift work. (I rarely tilt the 24 because the depth of field is so great it may just look a bit unfocused in areas rather than having a strong effect.) I have to say that the longer tilt shift lenses would mostly appeal to a still life shooter. Once you get lenses that are longer than 50mm or so, there are various kinds of solutions available for tilt and shift on 35mm. I am pretty familiar with using the Zeiss MF glass on 6x6 but don't know how ell that translates to the smaller format. And for selective focus effects there is the Lens Baby and various devices that let you tilt a lens father than the tilts on Canon, Nikon or the Hartblei lenses.
With the SuperRotators and shift lenses that were made using lenses that had a big enough circle to shift on 6x6 - 45mm, 55mm,65mm, others? the mounts could have been made with a lot more shifting capability for use on 35mm. I don't know the image circle of the new models, but I see that the Hartblei Zeiss 40 can shift only 10 mm, which is ok but nothing amazing. But the glass in the original 45mm SuperRotator looks like it makes an image circle that would have allowed about a 20+mm shift on 35mm. The same concept could apply to the tilt. I don't know if they didn't think of this because it was originally designed for 6x6, or due to difficulty making a mount that can do this.
The Zoerk shift adapter has a 20mm range so you could mount wide angle and longer Mamiya and other lenses on it for more shift than you get with the Hartblei Zeiss designs. And you could also buy used Hassy Zeiss 40, 50, 80, 120 etc. lenses pretty cheaply for the Zoerk adapters and get a greater range fo tilt and shift if the lenses will cover enough. Pentax 6x7 lenses will work on it too and you could probably adapt various enlarging lenses and view camera lenses as long as they are not too short a focal length.
It isn't a bad idea to have the tripod mechanism on the lens so the optical axis stays in place when shifting for panos. But I use a sliding adapter on the camera body to recenter the lens after shifting. In any case, I have totally abandoned this technique as I find I get much better results using a pano head and stitching via Autopano to a Planar image. This technique uses the center of the lens so it maximizes image quality and exposure evenness. And I can get wider images with more resolution as the camera is mounted vertically for horizontal panos. And if I have to shoot so wide that I'm forced into a cylindrical pano, that can often be corrected fairly well in CS4 via the warp too. You have to stitch with either method so I prefer the additional versatility of a panohead.
I have also found that it is not a good idea to use any shift on a lens if I am shooting images for Planar assembly in Autopano. For some reason that I don't fully understand, when I do that, the horizon has an weird wedged result. It is better to simply tilt up, shoot the pano and then correct the verticals in Autopano. (Plus you can get incredibly wide angle this way.)
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You can send it to us, we have a servicespecialist here in Germany who is knowing all about the old 45mm superrotator.
Stefan
Stefan,
I appreciate the response and maybe it's the cynic in me, but I think Phase would have about as much desire to see the Contax system evolve as Obama would enjoy seeing Bush join his cabinet as Secretary Of State.
Now one semi-serious question. I have the 45mm super rotator on a Contax and it's now as stiff as a board, hasn't taken any hits, or any rough abuse.
Where do I get this serviced?
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Dear Mr. Markowich
I have used an MTF Measurement device for my numbers, this is probably as scientific as it can be.
A testtable is the wrong test for this lens. And all of these highend Bodies now offer LiveVideo zoomed focus.
It is simply very difficult to focus right with a highend lens and a highend(over 20mp) body.
For tests I use only a 15 kg Benbo MK5 , Novoflex heads, a TC80N release and Mirror up for my 5DII and all the best stuff I can get to
get sharp images, then I focus series with a focusing rail (Novoflex Castel Cross Q) and then I know I will get a nice and sharp one.
But this is no different to what was needed for an 8x10 " so I feel at home there.
If somebody does not believe this here is a link to a rawfile Canon 1 DsII shot with the Hartblei 4/40mmIF.
http://www.hartblei.eu/download/food.CR2 (http://www.hartblei.eu/download/food.CR2)
try to do this with another lens and then we talk.
greetings from Munich
Awesome! Beautiful sharpness at full size.
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I think you mean me, Alan Goldstein.
Argh, yes, sorry Alan, I should have checked after all. On LUF it is easier
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the 35mm lenses
Hartblei 4/40 IF TS
Hartblei 2,8/80 TS
Hartblei Makro 4/120 TS
are identical optically to the Zeiss lenses
Distagon T* 4/40 IF/CFE
Planar T* 2,8/80 CFE
Makro-Planar T* 4/120 CFE
for Hasselblad
and
Distagon 4/40 FLE HFT PQ
Planar Rollei 2,8/80 HFT PQS
Makro-Planar 4/120 HFT PQS
for Rollei 6000.
so the Hartblei lenses can not be cheaper than the german Zeiss 6x6 lenses.
they may have to be more expensive because of the "superrotator" construction, and because the 6x6 lenses once have been mass produced in high numbers.
the Zeiss optics have an image circle for 56mmx56mm negative, so shifted or tilted they are not suitable for medium format.
this was the reason for the PC mutar for the Hasselblad 500.
optical performance of these Hartblei lenses will be identical to the Hasselblad or Rollei lenses.
photographing a test card in 2 m distance might not reflect the true performance of an optical system calculated for focus at 10 m.
the Hartblei lens for medium format
"phase one 45mm 3.5 TS"
is not a Zeiss optic, so it might be on a different quality level.
i have not seen the phase one lens yet. it will be distributed through phase one dealers exclusively.
the 35 mm lenses
Hartblei 4/40 IF TS
Hartblei 2,8/80 TS
Hartblei Makro 4/120 TS
can be touched, tested, rented, and bought in professional photo stores. at least that is the case in munich.
regards
arno al doori
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the 35mm lenses
Hartblei 4/40 IF TS
Hartblei 2,8/80 TS
Hartblei Makro 4/120 TS
are identical optically to the Zeiss lenses
Distagon T* 4/40 IF/CFE
Planar T* 2,8/80 CFE
Makro-Planar T* 4/120 CFE
for Hasselblad
and
Distagon 4/40 FLE HFT PQ
Planar Rollei 2,8/80 HFT PQS
Makro-Planar 4/120 HFT PQS
for Rollei 6000.
so the Hartblei lenses can not be cheaper than the german Zeiss 6x6 lenses.
they may have to be more expensive because of the "superrotator" construction, and because the 6x6 lenses once have been mass produced in high numbers.
the Zeiss optics have an image circle for 56mmx56mm negative, so shifted or tilted they are not suitable for medium format.
this was the reason for the PC mutar for the Hasselblad 500.
optical performance of these Hartblei lenses will be identical to the Hasselblad or Rollei lenses.
photographing a test card in 2 m distance might not reflect the true performance of an optical system calculated for focus at 10 m.
the Hartblei lens for medium format
"phase one 45mm 3.5 TS"
is not a Zeiss optic, so it might be on a different quality level.
i have not seen the phase one lens yet. it will be distributed through phase one dealers exclusively.
the 35 mm lenses
Hartblei 4/40 IF TS
Hartblei 2,8/80 TS
Hartblei Makro 4/120 TS
can be touched, tested, rented, and bought in professional photo stores. at least that is the case in munich.
regards
arno al doori
finally, its clear now. Thank you.
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... But I just found that, with that dark viewfinder in the Contax 645, and with the max Fstop of the Hartbleis, they were VERY hard to focus, even not tilted or shifted. (Remember too -- it's Manual Focus only).
I guess the 45 tilt shift on the Mamiya will be similar.
I think this a big difference between trying to do this type of work on MF or on 35mm than with a view camera. While little about using a 4x5 view camera is easy, the large ground glass and a focusing magnifier make to possible to tilt and check focus very accurately. And if you are using a Sinar or some other advanced cameras there are simple methods to use the scale on the focusing mechanism to transfer the tilt values to the lens and back standards. E.g. you focus on one spot, set the focusing scale to zero, focus on the other spot, note the value on the focusing scale, then you tilt the lens the same amount. There are vertical and horizontal lines on the ground glass that are used as specific locations for focusing.
Now that many 35mm cameras have Live View, it is possible to check the focus at a 10x magnification. Prior to that it was very hard for me to see the result of any tilt and focusing effect through the viewfinder - even with the brighter Canon lenses. However, one reason I went with the Canon 45mm lens over the Hartblei lens was that I mostly need shift, not tilt, the lens is f2.8 and it has an electronic aperture so viewing is at full aperture. The MF lenses are much bigger and heavier and the SuperRotator feature was not so important to me. Anyway the new Canon 24 and 17 have independent rotation for shift and tilt so it probably won't be long before they have 45mm and 90mm versions that also do that.