Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Colorwave on March 31, 2009, 05:39:03 pm
-
I just got an announcement about Hahnemuhle having a new fine art paper made from Sugar Cane. Intriguingly, the announcement came from Spectraflow, not one of my regular paper vendors. Shades of Paper is often an early adopter of new papers, but no mention of it there or at Inkjet Art yet.
Has anybody the Sugar Cane yet? I'm assuming that it prints similarly to Photo Rag or Bamboo, but would love some firsthand experience with it from other users (or vendors) before springing for a test roll. Also, what is the surface texture like? The Hahnemuhle site says it looks like a pastel paper, whatever that means to them. I hope it doesn't handle like HP Hahnemuhle Textured Fine Art, that is so fragile and chalky that I've given up on it as a textured paper.
On a related, but separate note, I've decided to drop offering Photo Rag as a standard matte rag paper in favor of Breathing Color's Optica One 300gsm. I like the sharpness of detail, the color gamut (better in the reds, particularly), and the absence of OBAs. My current lineup of fine art papers includes Breathing Color's Elegance Velvet for a textured surface, as well as Hahnemuhle Bamboo. For certain images, I still carry and love Photo Rag Satin, too.
FWIW, I print with a 44" Z3100ps and mostly use in house profiles made with APS.
-
I spoke to my dealer today (Beau Photo in Vancouver) and the paper guy said they haven't received any word on shipments to North America yet.
As it is available from some UK places online, I, too, would like to hear some opinions before getting a roll.
-
We were lucky enough to secure a few early samples of the paper. I'll be publishing a mini-review of it and perhaps the bamboo later this week. The paper is quite nice, produces a good deep black around L* 18 on a 7900. The texture is somewhat directional and has a tooth slightly smoother than the German etching. The durability of the surface seems to be good, I didn't notice any flaking even when I rubbed it with my finger. No comment on how it tastes...yet. Ignoring the fact that it is a green paper, it stands on its own quite well as another nice option in the Hahnemuhle lineup. That said, the fact that it is made from renewable and recycled materials, without sacrificing on quality, is a real innovation, and hopefully a sign of things to come.
-
Julian,
Thank you for the quick review. Good to hear it compares favorably to the rest of Hahnemuhle's lineup; I look forward to reading you full review and how it compares to the Bamboo (which I quite like).
-
Yes, thanks for the post, Julian. You seem to be first on the block with this new product, so congratulations. I'm looking forward to it, and understand from Hahnemuhle that inventory is expected in a couple of weeks. I'm expecting it to be a popular offering here in Hawaii. Green, and nice in it's own right is an excellent combo.
-
Hi,
I just got an announcement about Hahnemuhle having a new fine art paper made from Sugar Cane. Intriguingly, the announcement came from Spectraflow, not one of my regular paper vendors. Shades of Paper is often an early adopter of new papers, but no mention of it there or at Inkjet Art yet.
Has anybody the Sugar Cane yet? I'm assuming that it prints similarly to Photo Rag or Bamboo, but would love some firsthand experience with it from other users (or vendors) before springing for a test roll. Also, what is the surface texture like? The Hahnemuhle site says it looks like a pastel paper, whatever that means to them. I hope it doesn't handle like HP Hahnemuhle Textured Fine Art, that is so fragile and chalky that I've given up on it as a textured paper.
I was lucky enough to get 2 sheets of it few days ago. I don't have Bamboo at hand, but comparing to Photo Rag, it has much more obvious texture, which seems similar to Albrecht Durer, a bit more directional (parallel with one side), a bit less sharp or grainy. It also feels much heavier than A.Durer. I measured L* 17.65 for Sugar Cane and 17.73 for A.Durer. (on Epson 7900) So far I like this paper.
On a related, but separate note, I've decided to drop offering Photo Rag as a standard matte rag paper in favor of Breathing Color's Optica One 300gsm. I like the sharpness of detail, the color gamut (better in the reds, particularly), and the absence of OBAs. My current lineup of fine art papers includes Breathing Color's Elegance Velvet for a textured surface, as well as Hahnemuhle Bamboo. For certain images, I still carry and love Photo Rag Satin, too.
Are you sure Optica One and Elegance Velvet are OBA free? I checked BC's UK pages (I buy BC stuff from UK) and it mentions "OBA free" only for Sterling Rag Smooth, so I would expect the other papers contains some OBAs.
Mulis
-
Hmmm . . . looks like you are right, Mulis. I'm not sure if I misunderstood, or if I was given wrong information, when I spoke with my sales rep, but a quick search seems to prove you right. Their Chromata White Canvas and Sterling Rag are OBA free, but by not mentioning OBAs with the Optica One and Elegance Velvet, one can most likely assume that they have them. Interestingly enough, it doesn't seem like Sterling Rag is offered here in the US, only a slightly thicker satin rag paper called Allure Rag at 285 gsm. Is the Sterling Rag something you have tried and liked?
-
Wait! "Sugar Cane?" What day is this.
I do like Optica1, as a matte paper it makes very luminous prints even by glossy standards. Too heavy, IMHO, but those customers who buy prints only love it.
-
Hmmm . . . looks like you are right, Mulis. I'm not sure if I misunderstood, or if I was given wrong information, when I spoke with my sales rep, but a quick search seems to prove you right. Their Chromata White Canvas and Sterling Rag are OBA free, but by not mentioning OBAs with the Optica One and Elegance Velvet, one can most likely assume that they have them. Interestingly enough, it doesn't seem like Sterling Rag is offered here in the US, only a slightly thicker satin rag paper called Allure Rag at 285 gsm. Is the Sterling Rag something you have tried and liked?
I did not try the Sterrling Rag yet. I might get a sample roll with my next order of canvas from BC.
Mulis
-
Are you sure Optica One and Elegance Velvet are OBA free? I checked BC's UK pages (I buy BC stuff from UK) and it mentions "OBA free" only for Sterling Rag Smooth, so I would expect the other papers contains some OBAs.
Mulis
I can confirm Mulis's suspicion, having recently received a sample of Optica One printed on an Epson 4880 with K3VM inks from a new member of Aai&A's digital print research program. This paper is loaded with optical brighteners in the ink receptor coating (BTW, initial image quality of the submitted sample was outstanding). I have just started it in light fade testing, so it's too early to determine light fastness performance of this printer/ink/paper combo, but generally speaking, matte papers with this much OBA in the top coat have triggered the lower exposure boundary limit of the AaI&A conservation display rating (CDR) well before the overall image fade triggers the upper CDR fading limit. Subtle paper "yellowing" and the attendant effects on highlight color accuracy occurring early in test are what cause the lower limit to be reached more quickly (i.e., less accumulated exposure dose).
Papers that utilize OBA's more sparingly or that have no OBAs, when used in combination with pigmented ink sets, are generally performing much better in my tests. Note that an AaI&A CDR rating is a more demanding standard than commonly cited industry-sponsored lightfastness ratings (i.e., CDR scores specify little or no noticeable visual change compared to industry standard tests that allow for "easily noticeable" visual change). Current industry-sponsored tests have a liberal paper yellowing criterion that essentially gives OBA fade a "free pass" in the display rating predictions.
best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com)
-
We were lucky enough to secure a few early samples of the paper. I'll be publishing a mini-review of it and perhaps the bamboo later this week. The paper is quite nice, produces a good deep black around L* 18 on a 7900. The texture is somewhat directional and has a tooth slightly smoother than the German etching. The durability of the surface seems to be good, I didn't notice any flaking even when I rubbed it with my finger. No comment on how it tastes...yet. Ignoring the fact that it is a green paper, it stands on its own quite well as another nice option in the Hahnemuhle lineup. That said, the fact that it is made from renewable and recycled materials, without sacrificing on quality, is a real innovation, and hopefully a sign of things to come.
Well Mussi It doesnt taste that good..I actually tried that! Sorry I haven't been chiming in lately as I have been quite busy with our move to a larger facility to hold more paper!! Sugar Cane rolls are due in to me early next week Cut sheets not for another 2 to 3 weeks!
Cheers to all
http://www.shadesofpaper.com (http://www.shadesofpaper.com)
-
I can confirm Mulis's suspicion, having recently received a sample of Optica One printed on an Epson 4880 with K3VM inks from a new member of Aai&A's digital print research program. This paper is loaded with optical brighteners in the ink receptor coating (BTW, initial image quality of the submitted sample was outstanding). I have just started it in light fade testing, so it's too early to determine light fastness performance of this printer/ink/paper combo, but generally speaking, matte papers with this much OBA in the top coat have triggered the lower exposure boundary limit of the AaI&A conservation display rating (CDR) well before the overall image fade triggers the upper CDR fading limit. Subtle paper "yellowing" and the attendant effects on highlight color accuracy occurring early in test are what cause the lower limit to be reached more quickly (i.e., less accumulated exposure dose).
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com)
Mark-
Any comments on the testing cited by Breathing Color? They mention the Fine Art Trade Guild and Blue Wool fade testing. I could probably guess your response, but would love to hear your thoughts on their validity.
-
Mark-
Any comments on the testing cited by Breathing Color? They mention the Fine Art Trade Guild and Blue Wool fade testing. I could probably guess your response, but would love to hear your thoughts on their validity.
Hello Colorwave,
To the credit of Breathing Color, the company actually puts a lot of effort into discussing image permanence issues on its website. Unfortunatey, it's hard to find the "meat" in the archival quality certificate BC awards to its own products. Here are two excerpts from the BC Archival Quality Certificate:
1) "Breathing Color is committed to performing extensive independent testing by third-party accredited laboratories in order to ensure that our fine art products meet and exceed the standards set forth by Fine Art Trade
Guild (FATG) for pH and lightfastness".
2) "THIS CERTIFICATE SERVES TO ENSURE THAT [this product] Meets the Archival Standards set
forth by Fine Art Trade Guild for pH and lightfastness".
What I wasn't able to find on the website was what third party ran the tests, copies of the actual tests, or what printers and inks were used to conduct the light fastness portion of the Fine Art Trade Guild's Blue wool derived light fade test. The lightfastness part of the FATG specification by its very design is a "system test". You can't just test the paper. You must test the real artwork, which for a fine art inkjet print means the printer screening pattern, the ink, the paper or canvas, any post treatments or coatings, and most importantly the artist's actual image. The FATG light fade method is therefore a sacrificial test on one real print in test. Hence, this test is mainly applicable to a limited edition run of prints all made at the same time. At best, a manufacturer could only copy but not precisely replicate an FATG lightfade test by choosing a generic test target image, but it would still have to be a total system analysis not a test of the media by itself.
Not too belabor the issues, but the FATG light fade test is really quite interesting and worth a little more discussion.
As I understand it, the Guild has specified a visual test which artists can perform on their own artwork (or it can be run in an accelerated light fade chamber). It is based on comparison of the artwork fading to ISO blue wool #6 color patch fading when both are exposed to the same incident light source. The ISO Blue wool dyes (there are eight of them) have been studied to death and have a long history of use in the museum and archives community as well as the textile industry where they originated. They also have batch to batch variability issues and many other quirks, but I don't mean to disparage them. They have served their intended purpose well over the years.
The Guild's test method is roughly this: One print and one BW#6 color patch are stored in the dark while another identical print plus BW#6 patch is exposed to light (presumably a sunlight window test). The viewer must observe a just noticeable change in the BW#6 color patch before seeing any noticeable change in the artwork when comparing the light exposed samples to the dark stored samples. If the artwork shows signs of fading or discoloration prior to fade being observed in the BW6 patch, the print fails the FATG test specification. On its fundamental merits, this approach is really quite good because it sets a rigorous standard for allowable change at the test endpoint that I believe most fine art printmakers would find desireable, ie., little or no noticeable light-induced fading of the artwork at a specified exposure dose. Another positive aspect of using an actual image is that the test addresses the important issue of image-specific fading whereby different combinations of colors and tones can contribute to easier or harder-to-notice signs of fading. However, a disadvantage is obviously the sacrificial nature of the test such that the method appears to be useful only for limited edition print sets where one print can be sacrificed. All that said, the Guild's basic testing concept actually had a great deal of influence on me as I was working out the instrumented colorimetric approach I now use to specify the AaI&A conservation display ratings (CDRs). I simply take the test standardization and the measurement of "little or no visual change" a few steps further by using spectrophotometric instrumentation to detect that change and by bolting down the spectral illuminant and the temperature and RH during the test cycle in order to create a fully standardized test protocol. Moreover, the AaI&A CDR scores give comparative figures of merit for product (total system) performance whereas the guild test is a pass/fail rating only.
In a search through the art conservation literature, I found the critical exposure dose information we need to know in order to understand the light fastness of the Blue wool #6 patch and consequently the Guild's pass/fail performance expectation. The reported exposure dose is 100 Megalux-hrs for just noticeable fade of the BW6. Also, it is important to note that this 100 megalux hour exposure was achieved with a UV excluded light source (consistent with what museum lighting specialists would do when illuminating valuable artwork on display). Additionally, the UK Guild test has generally been interpreted to mean 100 years on display before any just noticeable light-induced fading occurs. That means 100 years is being equated to a 100 Megalux hour exposure dose. Hence, the FATG's 100 year interpretation for BW6 lightfastness establishes a one-to-one Mluxhrs-to-years correspondence which means an assumption of approximately 225 lux for 12 hours per day average illumination levels. This is about half the illumination level cited by WIR in its predictions (450lux per 12hr day) but nearly twice what Kodak cites for its predictions (120 Lux per 12 hr day). You can probably understand why I finally concluded that predicting years on display for light-induced fading becomes a fool's game. Letting end-users extrapolate rated Megalux hour exposure doses to their own specific lighting conditions may be a little harder for the end-user than dumbing down the rating to "years on display" but it's not that hard. Moreover, it will result in a more honest assessment of lightfastness performance. Prints in Real world display conditions can encounter "normal" illumination levels that range well over 1000:1. Significance of a global "average" print illumination value doesn't mean a whole lot compared to having more specific knowledge of a print's true display environment, and as you can see from the 4:1 discrepancy between WIR and Kodak predictions, defining that "average" illumination condition isn't an easy factor to quantify and agree upon, either. Megalux hour ratings resolve that dispute.
Finally, to summarize my own light fade method in use at AaI&A with respect to the FATG BW6 comparative performance expectation, it appears that if AaI&A test samples reach 100 Megalux hours in test before triggering the CDR limits (note that I do include some UVA energy content in my light fade testing), then 100+ Megalux hour CDR scores should qualify print materials to also pass the UK Guild light fastness test. I've got some Breathing Color canvas and paper samples printed with Epson K3 and K3VM ink sets in test now, so we will find out in about a year if they reach the 100 Mlux-hr mark without triggering CDR limits. Its take a while to rack up 100 MLux-hrs in my less aggressively accelerated testing units. If the samples do achieve 100+ Megalux-hour ratings, the results are for these tested systems only. Other printers and inks would inevitably have different CDR scores.
I'm curious to know what you thought I might say, but I hope my remarks offer a reasoned reply to your question.
Best regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com)
-
Just one more message to bring us back a little more on the topic of Sugarcane!
I've got some HN Bamboo paper printed with a couple of different pigmented ink sets already in light fade testing. I'd love to have an AaI&A member submit a printed sample of its "green" companion, the new Sugarcane paper, for light fastness testing.
Jim Doyle, not to put you on the spot here, but corporate membership in the AaI&A digital print research program is not too steep, and financial sponsorship of the test results to make them fully accessible to the public isn't prohibitive, either. You've got the best machines to print the samples, soon will have the paper, and you'd be helping the LL community to gather some independent lightfastness test results if you elect to sponsor a test or two.
Just a small self-serving plea for some help to keep the digital print research program expanding! Jim, I hope you don't mind.
Best regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com)
-
I'm curious to know what you thought I might say, but I hope my remarks offer a reasoned reply to your question.
Mark-
First of all, thanks for the incredibly thorough answer about the fade testing. I get a sense of your commitment to this topic just by reading your words.
As for what I thought you might say, since it seemed vague and was only a pass fail result, provided in the self serving interest of a manufacturer, I expected you to poke some holes in the results. You did, as well as a few broader concepts behind this type of research, as well. That isn't to say that it seems without any merit, just not as much merit as we would like.
I don't know if Breathing Color chose to have their products tested by the Fine Art Trade Guild in lieu of Wilhelm, or in addition to Wilhelm. I assume, as a for profit enterprise, that WIR costs more for their test regimen than FATG. Like any company, Breathing Color is not likely to tout negative results in their marketing, though, either. Perhaps it is just a matter of Breathing Color not having the resources to fund Wilhelm testing. As best I can recall, I don't think I've seen other manufacturers mention Fine Art Trade Guild findings in their sales pitch, so that got my attention, and I find that an interesting distinction.
Back a little more on topic, I understand that Hahnemuhle incorporates the OBAs into the paper, rather than just applying them as a surface coating. If they are going to be there for the sake of initial print brilliance, does it seem to make a difference how they are incorporated in the paper? I'm guessing that the Bamboo (and probably the Sugar Cane) have less OBAs than other Hahnemuhle papers, based on the more natural tone of the paper surface.
-
Back a little more on topic, I understand that Hahnemuhle incorporates the OBAs into the paper, rather than just applying them as a surface coating. If they are going to be there for the sake of initial print brilliance, does it seem to make a difference how they are incorporated in the paper? I'm guessing that the Bamboo (and probably the Sugar Cane) have less OBAs than other Hahnemuhle papers, based on the more natural tone of the paper surface.
Yes, absolutely.
HN Bamboo has no OBAs in it at all. I don't know about HN Sugarcane until I get hold of a sample. Compare Bamboo (more warm white) to HN photo Rag, (closer to neutral under D50 illuminant), for example. Photo Rag has some OBAs in the paper core but none in the coatings. When used sparingly in this manner, the light-induced changes to initial paper color over time is sometimes just barely noticeable, and sometimes no worse than non-OBA containing products because the non OBA containing papers occasionally use other types of dyes to "level" out the manufacturing batch-to-batch color consistency. Those leveling dyes, to the extent that they are added to bring the specific batch color back into initial specification, can also fade in test. I have at least one example of this effect in the AaI&A light fade database. It a non OBA-free paper in the Museo line of fine art papers. That said, the truly weak performers in terms of initial paper color retention with respect to light-induced changes, are the papers that incorporate high levels of OBA into the image coating layer. Breathing Color Optica One is likely going to be a representative example of this type of product, but I won't know for sure until the test is further in progress. Epson Ultra Premium Presentation Matte (aka, Enhanced Matte, Heavy Weight Matte, and Archival Matte), Epson Exhibition Fiber paper, and Hp Pro Satin Photo paper are some other examples of heavy reliance on OBAs in the ink receptor coatings. These papers all exhibit noticeable "yellowing" in the highlights upon exposure to light (yet still get a free pass in the current industry-sponsored tests).
OBAs are colorless dyes that fluoresce under the UVA part of the spectrum to influence the colors of everything around them. Like other classes of dyes, some are probably more stable than others, although to date I've seen no evidence of much difference among different inkjet paper manufacturers in terms of intrinsic OBA lightfastness. However, Colorwave, as you suspected, location and concentration of the dyes is indeed really important, and this fact is manifested most by the "ultra bright white" variety of papers that all seem to rely on heavy incorporation of OBAs in the ink receptor layer. To sum up, what my test show so far, is that staying away from OBAs altogether is a simple and safe approach if you can adhere to it, but as long as one avoids the OBAs in the top coat, other locations in the media (e.g, paper core, and anti curl layers) often allow the paper to perform as well as other OBA-free papers. I think fine art printmakers should probably keep an open mind about OBA usage at this point in time but definitely avoid the obviously weak systems once they are identified. A good reason to keep building the AaI&A light fade test results database!
Best,
Mark
-
I have at least one example of this effect in the AaI&A light fade database. It a non OBA-free paper in the Museo line of fine art papers.
Sorry, I meant to type, "It's an OBA-free paper in the Museo line of fine art papers".
Mark
http://www.aardendburg-imaging.com (http://www.aardendburg-imaging.com)
-
Just one more message to bring us back a little more on the topic of Sugarcane!
I've got some HN Bamboo paper printed with a couple of different pigmented ink sets already in light fade testing. I'd love to have an AaI&A member submit a printed sample of its "green" companion, the new Sugarcane paper, for light fastness testing.
Jim Doyle, not to put you on the spot here, but corporate membership in the AaI&A digital print research program is not too steep, and financial sponsorship of the test results to make them fully accessible to the public isn't prohibitive, either. You've got the best machines to print the samples, soon will have the paper, and you'd be helping the LL community to gather some independent lightfastness test results if you elect to sponsor a test or two.
Just a small self-serving plea for some help to keep the digital print research program expanding! Jim, I hope you don't mind.
Best regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com (http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com)
Mark
I am sure we can work something out..I am not against testing or anything thats some great info for sure! Give me a call next week and we can discuss ok
If its for the purpose of this group its a no brainer many of you are Team Shades most LOYAL customers
Cheers
Jim Doyle
http://www.shadesofpaper.com (http://www.shadesofpaper.com)
-
On the subject of the new Sugar Cane material, can we expect the price to be in line with the Hahnemuhle Bamboo? I was taking a look at my paper prices last night and hadn't realized or had forgotten that the Bamboo is one of the better bargains out there, in terms of comparable papers.
-
On the subject of the new Sugar Cane material, can we expect the price to be in line with the Hahnemuhle Bamboo? I was taking a look at my paper prices last night and hadn't realized or had forgotten that the Bamboo is one of the better bargains out there, in terms of comparable papers.
Yes Ron, the Hahnemuhle Bamboo and the NEW! Hahnemuhle Sugar Cane are priced identically!
-
Yes Ron, the Hahnemuhle Bamboo and the NEW! Hahnemuhle Sugar Cane are priced identically!
Hello gang
Well Sarah you are right and you are wrong.. Depending upon your dealer they may be able to offer discounts! As some dealers buy in large ( Shades Of Paper does ) volume while other dealers buy in smaller lots. I can also tell you that the Bamboo pricing is more steady since there is a history. There is no history with Sugar Cane.. So over the years I have learned that with new ones like this .. Be careful Its a nice product and images well and all but its not the breakthough that Say Silver rag and the Baryta's where
As far as what Sarah is refering to see means MAP price or street Minium pricing that can be advertised either in print, on the radio or on a website! That is why we at Shades like emails and calls we have the ability to work with people to make each job profitable on quality products. As far as Hahnemuhle's MAP Price its Identical to Bamboo..
Just my .02 worth!
Cheers
Jim Doyle
http://www.shadesofpaper.com (http://www.shadesofpaper.com)
-
I guess I am always lucky....
I had this paper in various stages of it's dev, but as you can expect I can't say before it's time. Since you have now discovered it's happening, I can share some thoughts.
What is great about Bamboo is the same on Sugar. It is made from a renewable source, both Bamboo and Sugar Cane have a high percentage of fibres from the name of the product.
The stiffness of the paper is different, the resilience different too.
Sugar has a texture, quite a sharp one at that . In strong side lighting, it has apparent shadows in the tooth. IT is relatively stable in various lighting and shows very little grey balance failure, nor Illum. metamerism compared to photo papers.
It is correct on the black point, but don't forget that all textured papers include more incidence reflection hence you will always have a lighter measured point at 0/45º. The actual appearance is just as rich a black as smooth FA papers , such as Bamboo.
Measured black point with APS on the 3200 is Lab: 17.5883038, 0.9316109, 1.6764798 and white Lab: 94.8493069, 0.5968897, 2.1146865, gamut volume 470,066.
It is a curly paper though so sheet fed will take a bit more care. De-rolling is fine, and the curl in any case lives at the edge zones.
My in window tests are showing no fade in the many months unscientific tests to my eyes.
I highly recommend this paper for ecological reasons as much as it is a stunning paper as most are from Hahnemuhle.
I do have the Z3200 APS (Monaco) profile here if you need it.
-
I guess I am always lucky....
I had this paper in various stages of it's dev, but as you can expect I can't say before it's time. Since you have now discovered it's happening, I can share some thoughts.
What is great about Bamboo is the same on Sugar. It is made from a renewable source, both Bamboo and Sugar Cane have a high percentage of fibres from the name of the product.
The stiffness of the paper is different, the resilience different too.
Sugar has a texture, quite a sharp one at that . In strong side lighting, it has apparent shadows in the tooth. IT is relatively stable in various lighting and shows very little grey balance failure, nor Illum. metamerism compared to photo papers.
It is correct on the black point, but don't forget that all textured papers include more incidence reflection hence you will always have a lighter measured point at 0/45º. The actual appearance is just as rich a black as smooth FA papers , such as Bamboo.
Measured black point with APS on the 3200 is Lab: 17.5883038, 0.9316109, 1.6764798 and white Lab: 94.8493069, 0.5968897, 2.1146865, gamut volume 470,066.
It is a curly paper though so sheet fed will take a bit more care. De-rolling is fine, and the curl in any case lives at the edge zones.
My in window tests are showing no fade in the many months unscientific tests to my eyes.
I highly recommend this paper for ecological reasons as much as it is a stunning paper as most are from Hahnemuhle.
I do have the Z3200 APS (Monaco) profile here if you need it.
Hey Neil
Great Review Thanks.. However Here are a few thoughts..
No 60 or 64 inch rolls..
Paper's are like Ice cream to many flavors!
As far as being a green product isn't cotton pretty darn green you pick it and grow it! Just like the Bamboo and the Sugarcane.
I know we are all a tough crowd to please..
Cheers
-
Hey Neil
Great Review Thanks.. However Here are a few thoughts..
No 60 or 64 inch rolls..
Paper's are like Ice cream to many flavors!
As far as being a green product isn't cotton pretty darn green you pick it and grow it! Just like the Bamboo and the Sugarcane.
I know we are all a tough crowd to please..
Cheers
Maybe it wasn't listed but 60" will be available if there is demand.
Cotton is fine as a renewable source but the quality and quantity necessary for 100% rag are making it more and more difficult for the makers to keep up. Ernst Dinkla's good friend and colleague knows everything about paper making, and would probably be one of the best people to answer questions to the validity of using alternatives to cotton. Ernst of course knows a lot about papers too!
-
Maybe it wasn't listed but 60" will be available if there is demand.
Cotton is fine as a renewable source but the quality and quantity necessary for 100% rag are making it more and more difficult for the makers to keep up. Ernst Dinkla's good friend and colleague knows everything about paper making, and would probably be one of the best people to answer questions to the validity of using alternatives to cotton. Ernst of course knows a lot about papers too!
Demand.. HMMM How do you create demand if there isnt that size to start with?
Agreed Ernst does..
Neil like always a pleasure having a good convo with you
Cheers
-
Agreed Ernst does..
Cheers
I wasn't going to comment but labeling Cotton and Bamboo as Green is too provoking :-)
To make my judgment milder on the Sugar Cane they can pack a bottle of Bacardi with every 6 rolls. I'm not that green.
Seriously: the Sugar Cane has the benefit of doubt though. There is the discussion whether Sugar Cane planted for Biodiesel/Ethanol in Brazil isn't pushing agriculture for food production further into untouched forest area but I guess that the fiber mass of cane that is left now as a waste product of both sugar, rhum and fuel production is ample supply for HM's pulp input. That cane waste went into the furnaces of the sugar plants in Indonesia 70 years ago and it would surprise me if it isn't still the normal route. When the cellulose content can be converted into fuel as well (bacteria systems) you will see HM in competition with your need for car fuel. I mean after the recession.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
-
Now available- all Sugar Cane paper sizes in sheets and rolls!
Sarah at Spectraflow
-
As far as being a green product isn't cotton pretty darn green you pick it and grow it! Just like the Bamboo and the Sugarcane.
I believe cotton is the crop that requires the highest pesticide usage to grow (150g of various pesticides for one T-shirt, or something like that), and also requires intensive irrigation. Bamboo, on the other hand, grows like grass (because it is) and has been called the world's most perfect renewable resource... you can clear cut a bamboo field and it will grow back in months.
-
I believe cotton is the crop that requires the highest pesticide usage to grow (150g of various pesticides for one T-shirt, or something like that), and also requires intensive irrigation. Bamboo, on the other hand, grows like grass (because it is) and has been called the world's most perfect renewable resource... you can clear cut a bamboo field and it will grow back in months.
well I guess the point is that they all are grown and a lot quicker than a tree..Does n't That make sense?
If I am wrong I certainly will listen. This is a rather wild topic when you speak about it with the manufactures as they all have a different spin or story to tell
Cheers
-
well I guess the point is that they all are grown and a lot quicker than a tree..Does n't That make sense?
If I am wrong I certainly will listen. This is a rather wild topic when you speak about it with the manufactures as they all have a different spin or story to tell
Cheers
Jim,
Cotton has a bad name. If you weed out the articles on the web that are obviously been paid for by the cotton industry you will get a less than nice picture. Pesticides, water waste, soil loss. The fashion industry has recognised that and there are eco friendly cotton production efforts as a result.
There are no bamboo plantations for paper production. I have seen all kinds of plans (Japanese) for bamboo plantations but no pulp production bamboo forests exist. And what exists has been used for the building industry etc in S.E. Asia for ages and is an important source for local communities. With the Chinese demands for paper fiber all kinds of wild strategies have developed including local collection of wood, bamboo, agricultural waste, recycled paper from the west, whatever fiber sources there exist. China didn't have the fiber resources for the immense demand. (Given the recession it would be a good idea to start the development of forests for the long term) The results are that some very old bamboo forests were cut, not only in China but also in Indonesia and India. More endangered species including the local people. While it grows fast the real cellulose gain isn't better compared to production trees, for example eucalyptus varieties. There's also the once in several years blossoming of bamboo over wide areas that Pandas and potential paper plants have to cope with, a big gap in pulp production will happen. The processing of bamboo mass isn't better in ecological/energy sense than that of other fiber sources. I have written this maybe a year ago on the Digital B&W list with links to several articles on the subject. Bamboo is a wonderful material for building, furniture etc but nothing special for paper production. I don't think HMs production will have an impact on the ecology of bamboo growing continents but giving it the label ecological sound is something else. That HM sends a small percentage of the price to a Green initiative is something else but I have not seen information of a direct relation to bamboo production. Show me a scientific article that compares bamboo pulp production with other sources and that declares that it is the best source ......
Less exotic are the production forests in several parts of the world. Pine, eucalyptus, etc. Pulp production with modern environmentally controlled plants. Replant programs for at least a hundred years already. Any waste is used for other means. Many Scandinavian homes are heated with waste from the wood and pulp factories. It will be hard to get better control on energy and environment than what exists there now. After 30 years of improvements forced by the public and its representatives.
With ever growing demand for fuel alternatives, food, building materials and paper pulp, there is competition out there in the fields and forests. There are other fiber sources that can grow on areas that do not have agricultural importance for food production and we all could eat a steak less and eat corn instead. But that competition will stay and has to be regulated so we can eat corn and read a book in 2100. The last will be exotic behaviour anyway :-)
I'm optimistic, not that Green at all but hate to be considered a fool.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
-
Call me a fool then but steps in the right direction all help. Actions first, lead to a strategy rather than follow for others to take. Hahnemuhle's purchasing of materials or those of their subcontracted plants are a drop in the ocean compared to newsprint and other periodicals.
Newspaper plants have recovery furnaces for the smelter runs. They more often than not supply all the electricity for the plant and inject the rest into the grid. Dangerous if there is an explosion for the workers, air pollution always present, but truth is the sodium sulphate used to digest pulp ( a bit different in kraft mills) leaches out and combines with other things making phenols etc.
All I know is I'd rather they hack down bamboo plants or sugar recovery, than cut down healthy trees that take much more time to grow.
On our side we need to have less demanding blazingly white paper bases and we could further the tiniest step a push in the right direction.
-
Call me a fool then but steps in the right direction all help. Actions first, lead to a strategy rather than follow for others to take. Hahnemuhle's purchasing of materials or those of their subcontracted plants are a drop in the ocean compared to newsprint and other periodicals.
Newspaper plants have recovery furnaces for the smelter runs. They more often than not supply all the electricity for the plant and inject the rest into the grid. Dangerous if there is an explosion for the workers, air pollution always present, but truth is the sodium sulphate used to digest pulp ( a bit different in kraft mills) leaches out and combines with other things making phenols etc.
All I know is I'd rather they hack down bamboo plants or sugar recovery, than cut down healthy trees that take much more time to grow.
On our side we need to have less demanding blazingly white paper bases and we could further the tiniest step a push in the right direction.
Neil,
No offence meant with my message.
There has been a thread on this subject here too:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....21265&st=20 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=21265&st=20)
As written I had no intention to repeat that, you both more or less invited me :-)
Reading more on Sugar Cane pulp I expect it will be a good, green alternative.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html (http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html)
-
Hey All,
I put up a little mini review of the Sugar Cane on the website, the first of many I expect. It's somewhat hard to come up with objective means of comparing papers since so much of what makes a paper a hit is something very subjective. There is also the challenge of divorcing the paper's proprieties from that of the printer used to test it. I'm still working on a different metric for evaluating the general gamut that a paper can support, the current example is a bit of a place holder.
That said I've included information on the OBA content, whiteness, and texture that I think will be useful for comparing papers, especially as I add more papers to the list. Any feedback is welcome.
http://www.spectraflow.com/product-reviews.html (http://www.spectraflow.com/product-reviews.html)
-
I put up a little mini review of the Sugar Cane on the website, the first of many I expect.
Thanks, Julian. That kind of information, with analytical and subjective information, is very helpful in evaluating a new paper to try. The texture photo is also useful. I'm sure that it doesn't seem that textured in normal viewing conditions, as you mention that the texture in the photo is enhanced, but I had concerns about how linear the texture would be, from other reviews. From what I see in the photo, the linear quality looks to be quite subtle. We could certainly use more reviews like this online.
Would you mind comparing the dMax/*L values with the Bamboo, from your profiling software, if you have them? Since I'm pretty familiar with the Bamboo, I'm curious how the two are differentiated, other than surface texture and paper source. I can tell about paper whiteness and texture visually, but won't be able to compare the printed aspects from 8 1/2" x 11" paper samples until I build a profile. Are the two papers pretty similar in terms of print quality?
Thanks,
Ron
PS: You might want to fix a small typo. Sheet and roll headings are reversed in your PDF.
-
Hello,
I have not been a member and took me a little to get around to a reply after this thread was pointed out to me by Hahnemuehle. I've worked with many of you over the years since my days at Apple and being a part of the introduction of ColorSync. I've worked for the last four years selling the NexPress for Kodak so I've kept a low profile with my giclée business. I no longer work for Kodak and am focusing on my giclée business while I continue to consult for the photo publishing business (my real source of income). Just as an fyi we use the BetterLight 8K for capture and the Epson 11880 for output.
While Ernst does start to unveil some of the issues on sustainability, I've found there is so much more to uncover after many tens to hundreds of hours of research over the last two months.
I read the articles on sustainability in the January and March issues in Art Business News and then attended Art Expo in New York. After having a discussion at Art Expo about the article "Q&A Justin Doe" with Gino, Wyland's Art Director, I began a project to write a highly supportable article - "Sustainability in Fine Art Printing at Artful Color". I was not very impressed with the level of data or supported points made in the Q&A. I have a B.S. in Engineering and advanced studies in Color Science and have worked for Apple and Kodak in Engineering, Marketing, and Sales. My former VP at Apple, Lisa Wellman, is now the president of SustainCommWorld and a major authority in sustainability in print media. I decided to use five of the principles from SustainComWorld and build a technical paper focusing on the most important issues in sustainability supported by much research and data. My hope is to thoroughly point out what has and can truly impact sustainability in fine art printing.
The challenge is getting data from the manufacturers on compounds in inks and coatings. I've searched many patents but they don't always list exact compounds. MSDSs are helpful but don't reveal all information. There is also important industry data which is available but getting to all the needed details is not easy. I have made all the right contacts for Artful Color's production process (others may use different inks and papers) but much more data is still to arrive.
I do feel there are extreme positions often taken with little data. There is much talk about cotton being bad and bamboo good (all over the web). Specific to fine art papers they are often made with 100% cotton linters. Cotton linters is a waste product and does not influence the production of cotton. This paper can be considered 100% recycled. Bamboo is a fast growing renewable crop which doesn't take irrigation, fertilizer, and pesticides. For fine art reproduction Bamboo can not be compared to wood pulp because wood pulp is usually not used for fine art papers. Again cotton linters are a waste product. The issue with Bamboo is how it is grown as Ernst points out. Hahnemuhle covers this issue by sourcing its bamboo from legal harvest areas and locations not converted from natural forest. They also say these locations are FSC certified but I'm still asking for specifics around this claim.
I think it is important to not jump to conclusions too quickly without research when dealing with the topic of sustainability. I've heard the question asked if less archival inks could be more sustainable. That assumes the current inks are not sustainable. I'm yet to see data supporting that conclusion. It is also important to note how huge of an improvement print on demand has made. Inks with no VOCs on non-woodpulp paper printed as sold instead of editions of hundreds printed with no buyer. I know several artists who have rented dumpsters and thrown away thousands of lithos. Those days are mostly over.
The addition of papers like Sugar Cane and Bamboo just keep adding to the improvement. BTW - I do like the Sugar Cane paper. Bagasse is a waste product in abundance. Trust me, I grew up in south Louisiana. The bonus is that this is such a nice paper. I do think it may be more of a good intent over lets say Museo Max. This paper is made of 100% linters which as stated above is a waste product as well. More info on all of this once my research is complete and the paper is published.
Regards,
Damon
Artful Color, inc.
www.artfulcolor.com
-
Appreciate the perspective, Damon. Nothing beats a fact or two. I got my samples of the Sugar Cane and am very impressed with it. It prints nicely, and has just the right amount of texture for its niche in my paper offerings. Well done Hahnemuhle
-
Ron,
You are welcome. Guess people have stopped following this thread. Thought there would be more responses to my post. I've had my head down in this research for two months. I'm just curious about how people will respond to a very technical analysis. Don't know what the artists will think since they are so non-technical. It's so important to get the facts but some people are more interested in the hype than the facts. Starting to make some good progress now that the manufacturers are starting to provide some good feedback. Regards - Damon
Appreciate the perspective, Damon. Nothing beats a fact or two. I got my samples of the Sugar Cane and am very impressed with it. It prints nicely, and has just the right amount of texture for its niche in my paper offerings. Well done Hahnemuhle
-
Hi Damon,
Well, I consider myself an artist first, but I have to be extremely technical, as a digital photographer, master printer and all around computer guru and IT guy. I may not like being that technical but I have to respect those hats or else the results show the lack of understanding totally.
IMO, when it comes to the paper, I'd say it's mostly how it looks and performs. That's what artist's want in the product first, followed by other factors.
I'm worried, being an HPZ user, how it will specifically perform in my printer.
A good example of what I mean is expressed in my testing of Hahnemmuhle Bamboo. This is the only paper that gives me consistent roller marks in the blacks, even after I got the black pinch rollers replaced to the tan pinch rollers in my HPZ. I never hear anyone else on this forum say that. I am wondering: Why am I getting this. HP is of no help. I wrote to Hahnemmuhle, but they did not respond. So no matter how untechnical or artistic I want to be, unless I want roller marks, that paper will not be used in my printer.
Sigh. I personally feel that there are too many hurdles sometimes, and there are too few sources of any good focussed information, let alone any really good technical information. All the manufacturers are businesses first and they want you to buy buy buy and they do not work well together. They may even form alliances, but there aren't any guarantees. It's buyer beware, and bring lots of money, and time, and patience to this picnic.
Sorry, if I seem bitter, but I guess you might say that I am.
So long for now, TOM
Don't know what the artists will think since they are so non-technical.
-
A few well placed facts tends to put speculation to rest. Cotton paper being made by waste products puts a end to the Cotton = bad debate, same for sugar cane.
As for "Hahnemuhle covers this issue by sourcing its bamboo from legal harvest areas and locations not converted from natural forest." by using bamboo sourced from
good legal harvest areas just moves the demand for non legal harvested bamboo up. Though the amount of bamboo being used for Hahnemule fine art paper must be a
very small drop in the bucket of bamboo used. Seems to be much like "Carbon Credits" largely a corporate PR shell game IMHO. When will they make a hemp based fine art
paper? Think of all the unused fiber being wasted in Humboldt county alone
-
Tom-
We have the same machine, and I have the updated pinch rollers, same as you. I wish I had an answer for you as to why you are having marking issues with the Bamboo, but I'm thankfully not experiencing the same issues with it or the Sugar Cane. I assume that you have checked, and the width and spacing line up with the rollers? I only ran into this problem, before the part upgrade, with glossy papers like the Harman. My problems showed up as faint gloss differential variances. What do yours look like on matte papers? I've only run 11" x 17" Sugar Cane test paper through mine, so far, but a very dark background print showed no marks.
Damon-
Who knows why some posts hit a particular hot button and others do not, but thanks again for the perspective about fine art paper sources. It's nice to be able assuage the concerns about pesticide and fertilizer use for cotton, since it is not a first source use for the raw material. I like the marketing angle for cotton and the new Hahnemuhle papers, but more significantly, I like the fact that they are legitimately better than other sources for the environment. Let's keep as many trees as we can upright and planted. As for artists not caring about much of the technical side of things, that is obviously true, and one reason that the ecological angle needs to reinforce the use of these papers, not be the sole reason to use them. High quality printing still comes first, in terms of criteria.
-
Tom,
I understand your struggle. I think many of the manufacturers respond in fear more than in trying to address issues. It has been a big struggle to get the information necessary to put this article together.
I'm not real familiar with roller issues on the HPZ printers. I owned one for a year and sold it. I've been very interested in the Canon printer and heard great things about it but have stuck with the Epson because it is a known good performer. So many of the paper coatings are designed with the Epson in mind.
The challenge with the coatings is that the more ink is absorbed the less the D-max. The more the ink is on the surface the higher the D-max but the slower the ink dries and ends up on the rollers. HP is an expert in thermal print heads. There are limitations to the type of ink you can put in a thermal print head. I think this may be a source of the problem.
Regards - Damon
Hi Damon,
Well, I consider myself an artist first, but I have to be extremely technical, as a digital photographer, master printer and all around computer guru and IT guy. I may not like being that technical but I have to respect those hats or else the results show the lack of understanding totally.
IMO, when it comes to the paper, I'd say it's mostly how it looks and performs. That's what artist's want in the product first, followed by other factors.
I'm worried, being an HPZ user, how it will specifically perform in my printer.
A good example of what I mean is expressed in my testing of Hahnemmuhle Bamboo. This is the only paper that gives me consistent roller marks in the blacks, even after I got the black pinch rollers replaced to the tan pinch rollers in my HPZ. I never hear anyone else on this forum say that. I am wondering: Why am I getting this. HP is of no help. I wrote to Hahnemmuhle, but they did not respond. So no matter how untechnical or artistic I want to be, unless I want roller marks, that paper will not be used in my printer.
Sigh. I personally feel that there are too many hurdles sometimes, and there are too few sources of any good focussed information, let alone any really good technical information. All the manufacturers are businesses first and they want you to buy buy buy and they do not work well together. They may even form alliances, but there aren't any guarantees. It's buyer beware, and bring lots of money, and time, and patience to this picnic.
Sorry, if I seem bitter, but I guess you might say that I am.
So long for now, TOM
-
Don't know if anyone is still following this thread any longer. It took well over 200 hours but I've finished the report on "Environmental Sustainability in Fine Art Printing". It took much work but I learned everything I've ever wanted to know about ink and media.
I'm hoping to do an article about the report in Art Business News. I'm only sharing it with people I know until I get some PR on the thing. I'd like to get some mileage out of it before the competition gets it.
Regards,
Damon