Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Doug Peterson on March 25, 2009, 05:45:50 pm
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Today Phase One is announcing that they have have a controlling interest in Mamiya.
Read More (http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/03/25/phase-one-takes-controlling-interest-of-mamiya/)
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Today Phase One is announcing that they have have a controlling interest in Mamiya.
Read More (http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/03/25/phase-one-takes-controlling-interest-of-mamiya/)
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
Will this speed up product development? I think it is great news. Will the MAC group continue to be the agent for Mamiya in the US? I have more questions but time will tell on this move.
Thanks Denis
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Today Phase One is announcing that they have have a controlling interest in Mamiya.
Read More (http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/03/25/phase-one-takes-controlling-interest-of-mamiya/)
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
Doug, you may know more, but read the fine print in the Press Release. Phase has become a "major shareholder", not the majority or controlling shareholder.
Without knowing the size of Phase's financial investment and the background to the investment, it's hard to evaluate the significance. For all we know, Mamiya was about to go the way of F&H and Phase is stepping in to keep it afloat. Since the parties have chosen to disclose so little, I would take all the conjecture with a major grain of salt.
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Doug, you may know more, but read the fine print in the Press Release. Phase has become a "major shareholder", not the majority or controlling shareholder.
Without knowing the size of Phase's financial investment and the background to the investment, it's hard to evaluate the significance. For all we know, Mamiya was about to go the way of F&H and Phase is stepping in to keep it afloat. Since the parties have chosen to disclose so little, I would take all the conjecture with a major grain of salt.
The exact nature of the financials is indeed ambiguous: Mr Peterson explicitly mentions Phase One is now a "controlling shareholder," while the press release states "major shareholder" - there's a fundamental difference in the meanings and it would be good if Mr Peterson or someone from Phase One would clarify this.
In any case, it means that Phase One / Mamiya are now almost fully vertically integrated camera manufacturer, ie. they make the hardware and software for medium format cameras. I believe they don't make chips, which is the only part they still have to procure outside. This should create synergies and other buzz words which make executives giddy and M&A bankers rich - remains to be seen how consumers benefit.
Hopefully in the products; from the press release:
“And as a result of our close collaboration,” Mr. Midorikawa said, “new products are just around the corner. We plan to introduce both new leaf shutter lenses and even more super lightweight focal plane shutter lenses in 2009. We aim to offer the world’s widest range of medium format lenses for Mamiya and Phase One camera platforms.”
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Doug, you may know more, but read the fine print in the Press Release. Phase has become a "major shareholder", not the majority or controlling shareholder.
Without knowing the size of Phase's financial investment and the background to the investment, it's hard to evaluate the significance. For all we know, Mamiya was about to go the way of F&H and Phase is stepping in to keep it afloat. Since the parties have chosen to disclose so little, I would take all the conjecture with a major grain of salt.
Howard, despite the lack of details, controlling stake could be taken as a literal phrase.
And I would say that Mamiya has not been healthier in years. Phase One and Mamiya had clearly been collaborating in terms of development for some time and the result has been dramatic increases in the sale of bodies and lenses. This was potentially inevitable for some time now. As events in our industry have shaken out over the past 12 - 24 months it makes total sense from our standpoint.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Howard, despite the lack of details, controlling stake could be taken as a literal phrase.
And I would say that Mamiya has not been healthier in years. Phase One and Mamiya had clearly been collaborating in terms of development for some time and the result has been dramatic increases in the sale of bodies and lenses. This was potentially inevitable for some time now. As events in our industry have shaken out over the past 12 - 24 months it makes total sense from our standpoint.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Steve, no one has used the actual term "controlling" in any of the public releases, so it was apparently not a part of the deal. That's unfortunate. It would be best if Phase bought 100% of Mamiya. Eventually it will happen, as it makes so much sense for these two companies to merge. The camera side of the business needs the profits of the digital side in order to innovate. I would love to see Phase/Mamiya develop a new, world class camera platform(NOT a Mamiya AFDIII.5). If it's a closed system, I would consider buying one!!!
I wonder where this leaves Mamiya's relationship with MAC in the US. The press release talks about Mamiya selling rebranded Phase backs, and it would be weird for MAC to still be selling Leaf stuff.
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Probably Phase will go after Hasselblad before Leaf since they have no relationship with them and because the may feel that they could grab some market share from photographers that have Phase backs on H1, H2 systems and are thinking to upgrade.
Leaf may also slow down since they spend all that effort on the AFi project. It all depends on the market share magnetism of the AFi project, but all the talk about insolvency is not helping, but Leaf needs the AFi more than ever since Phase will integrate the AFD system to their back. Probably there should be a ZD body with Phase know how, -- but the ZD is for Mamiya as The Newton was for Apple --.
What I would like to see is a digital MF rangefinder like the Mamiya 7 with much smaller lenses...
Other items in the wish list:
80mm f: 1.8 af
110mm f: 2 af Macro
Mamiya Flexbody that would accept RZ and RB lenses. (this could be so easy to do)
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The MAC group has come up with two very well priced kits using the Mamiya platform ( DL28 & DL33 ) with Leaf backs attached to the ADFIII. This is a win win situation for both Mamiya/Phase & Leaf & is in the keeping of the open platform. Phase could revisit the ZD camera since it has already been built & takes all the lenses that the AFD camera uses. Put the 39 MP chip or a newer generation chip in the 36x48 mm size & offer it at a good price?
Denis
Probably Phase will go after Hasselblad before Leaf since they have no relationship with them and because the may feel that they could grab some market share from photographers that have Phase backs on H1, H2 systems and are thinking to upgrade.
Leaf may also slow down since they spend all that effort on the AFi project. It all depends on the market share magnetism of the AFi project, but all the talk about insolvency is not helping, but Leaf needs the AFi more than ever since Phase will integrate the AFD system to their back. Probably there should be a ZD body with Phase know how, -- but the ZD is for Mamiya as The Newton was for Apple --.
What I would like to see is a digital MF rangefinder like the Mamiya 7 with much smaller lenses...
Other items in the wish list:
80mm f: 1.8 af
110mm f: 2 af Macro
Mamiya Flexbody that would accept RZ and RB lenses. (this could be so easy to do)
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I would speculate slightly differently:
P1 will now be more motivated to help Mamiya re-develop the ZD camera. Could be a nice option for those who want a lightweight MF camera for travel photography. I can see one in my future.
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Probably there should be a ZD body with Phase know how,
What I would like to see is a digital MF rangefinder like the Mamiya 7 with much smaller lenses...
Other items in the wish list:
80mm f: 1.8 af
110mm f: 2 af Macro
Mamiya Flexbody that would accept RZ and RB lenses. (this could be so easy to do)
All good ideas.
The ZD started its life around $12K with an expensive (back then) 22mpx Dalsa sensor.
An updated ZD with the recently announced 48mpx Dalsa sensor would be great as a competitor to the Leica S2.
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All good ideas.
The ZD started its life around $12K with an expensive (back then) 22mpx Dalsa sensor.
An updated ZD with the recently announced 48mpx Dalsa sensor would be great as a competitor to the Leica S2.
It would have to be priced to be competitive with the DSLR market as it could be a unique product. I had the ZD camera until last Dec when I sold it. I really enjoyed the time I had with it but times move on & this camera needs a big update on the digital side. The current ZD camera is a 2004 design. Also would Phase be interested in putting R&D into the ZD body?
Denis
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Gidday,
I was told today that Mamiya is bringing out a new camera called the Mamiya 645 DF body.
It is digital only, open platform and compatible with the new Mamiya leaf shutter lenses and Hasselblad lenses with adaptor.
It is going to be unveiled at the Photo Imaging Expo in Tokyo.
Cheers
Simon
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Gidday,
I was told today that Mamiya is bringing out a new camera called the Mamiya 645 DF body.
It is digital only, open platform and compatible with the new Mamiya leaf shutter lenses and Hasselblad lenses with adaptor.
It is going to be unveiled at the Photo Imaging Expo in Tokyo.
Cheers
Simon
That would be starting today and ending on the 29th. Should have some pictures on Japanese sites tonight I guess.
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Will this speed up product development? I think it is great news.
Thanks Denis
Ask again in a couple of months.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Gidday,
I was told today that Mamiya is bringing out a new camera called the Mamiya 645 DF body.
It is digital only, open platform and compatible with the new Mamiya leaf shutter lenses and Hasselblad lenses with adaptor.
It is going to be unveiled at the Photo Imaging Expo in Tokyo.
Cheers
Simon
Thanks,
the 645DF with vertical grip and leaf shutter 80mm lens is already at www.mamiya.co.jp
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Steve, no one has used the actual term "controlling" in any of the public releases, so it was apparently not a part of the deal. That's unfortunate. It would be best if Phase bought 100% of Mamiya. Eventually it will happen, as it makes so much sense for these two companies to merge. The camera side of the business needs the profits of the digital side in order to innovate. I would love to see Phase/Mamiya develop a new, world class camera platform(NOT a Mamiya AFDIII.5). If it's a closed system, I would consider buying one!!!
I wonder where this leaves Mamiya's relationship with MAC in the US. The press release talks about Mamiya selling rebranded Phase backs, and it would be weird for MAC to still be selling Leaf stuff.
Howard, regardless of the term not being in the release, I can assure you, we are very much in control. I don't know all the secrets of Phase One, but um, it is my company and I think I know what I am talking about (at least on this occasion).
Many changes and developments will evolve from this announcement. It is encouraging to me as an employee to see that the company I work for has the resources to make an investment of this type, especially considering the global economy. We may not be backed by some huge corporation but in many ways we are the little engine that could.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Thanks,
the 645DF with vertical grip and leaf shutter 80mm lens is already at www.mamiya.co.jp
An LSD lens? What a trip!
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Thanks,
the 645DF with vertical grip and leaf shutter 80mm lens is already at www.mamiya.co.jp
I looked at there site & can't find anything. I sure hope Phase improves the Japan website, it is not good.
Denis
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http://www.mamiya.co.jp/img/20090326/645df.jpg (http://www.mamiya.co.jp/img/20090326/645df.jpg)
Looks like they added more battery power
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Thanks,
the 645DF with vertical grip and leaf shutter 80mm lens is already at www.mamiya.co.jp
know, thats looking more like a serious camera.
if they will only add a removable finder and dedicated AF button (that doesnt get over-rided by the front), then they have almost caught up with the contax!
also, i just read on the site that the leaf shutter lens is only running up to 500th sec. i thought they would be releasing a lens with 800th or higher.
paul
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http://www.mamiya.co.jp/img/20090326/645df.jpg (http://www.mamiya.co.jp/img/20090326/645df.jpg)
Looks like they added more battery power
Thanks that looks like the AFDIII body with the new battery grip.
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http://www.mamiya.co.jp/img/20090326/645df.jpg (http://www.mamiya.co.jp/img/20090326/645df.jpg)
Looks like they added more battery power
If Phase/Mamiya could do an all-in-one DSLR in a form factor of the original ZD, then the S2 is dead in the water. Great times for photographers ... as Michael says.
I've got all the Mamiya lenses except the "Sekor D"s under Phase label so not much expectations there.
Best to all.
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Howard, regardless of the term not being in the release, I can assure you, we are very much in control. I don't know all the secrets of Phase One, but um, it is my company and I think I know what I am talking about (at least on this occasion).
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Steve, we can resolve this easily. Please fax me a copy of the Phase/Mamiya stock purchase agreement and we can go over it together.
Joking aside, I do hope that Phase has full legal control. With a minority investment, the arrangement would likely be a prescription for disaster. And please, deliver a real, new-from-the-ground-up Phase camera, not a warmed over AFD.
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Steve H,
Is the 645DF necessary for use with the leaf shutter lens ?
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Steve H,
Is the 645DF necessary for use with the leaf shutter lens ?
I've not Steve but the Japanese press release does say the LS lens is for dedicated use with the 645DF.
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Steve H,
Is the 645DF necessary for use with the leaf shutter lens ?
I don't have any information yet about that. The shutter would be in the lens, and the shutter at the body stage would be disabled when using it (theoretically, I'm not that technical). So something would need to happen with the body to allow this. Whether this is something that would require a modification of some sort or if it is even possible is unknown to me. I'll try to sort out more and get back to you.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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I don't have any information yet about that.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
I'd hate to be in the medium format camera buying mood right now, because honestly I wouldn't know what to invest in. Now buying cameras isn't something I would have previously called an investment, but today with medium format used prices dropping like 2 year old Hummer's and deals being announced every 5 days, I would want some kind of assurance that whatever brand I bought into would be viable in the next few years (or further).
The press releases we read lately about medium format, from calumet's link to Hasselblad, F+H's insolvency issues and Leaf's determination to keep the brand running, Phase's takeover, uh investment, uh majority share, uh close cooperation with Mamiya, have the directness of a PR release written by Citibank.
With all respect to Mr. Hendrix, since he is with Phase One, I guess he knows the real story about who owns what though I would think the "real" story would be when the LS lenses will appear, do they require the new body, when will the new body appear, oh yea, and for how much?
For the reps that seem to take exception to questions about the wording of these press releases, understand that we as "buyers" didn't write them, we just read what is available and try to make an educated guess about what they mean and let's be real honest about this, medium format information is somewhat clouded in mystery (at best).
It wasn't but a few months ago at Photokina, that Leica and Phase were slow dancing with each other talking about another form of shared alliances with software and lenses though now we're told uh-uh, nope, never happened, Leica is going their own way and will dance solo.
It was also during the same Photokina that Sinar and Leaf we're going to sell Sinar branded Apti but that's gone silent, so who knows what any of this means?
Now the one press release that got my attention was Calumet saying they're going Hasselblad only. Actually, even that was not direct, as they mentioned they are going Hasselblad instead of Leaf, though up till a few hours I thought they also sold Phase, Leaf, Mamiya, Sinar. Even the Calumet website shows a megazvision, so what does that mean and what's the point of a retailer announcing they are going to sell "less" product?
I'm somewhat amazed by Calumet's announcement because what's to be gained by limiting options to the buyer. It's not like Calumet stocks that much in a store anyway, because everytime I go in there they say they have to order it. How much investment do they have in stock because it seems the only investment is updating their website with a .png file of a phase or Leaf back mounted on a Hasselblad H series with a high retail price point.
Even with all this electronic paper, the real world truth is most medium format professional images are shot with a Hasselblad H1 or H2 with all sorts of digital backs, and though Phase and Hasselblad seem to be both trying to rid the world these older cameras through promotions, they still exist and are still being used daily.
Maybe all of this stuff is good news but it smacks of turf wars between the bloods and the crips (medium format), fighting over three blocks of Vermont St. while 6 blocks away Turner Construction (Canon/Nikon) is building a 45 story complex.
Now the funny thing is yesterday I'm in an office waiting to go into a meeting and I pick up some magazine like House Wonderful and there is an Ad showing Nadav Kander endorsing a Samsung Point and Shoot.
I thought, now that's cool, all I need is $500 and a google map to Sam's club and Nadav and I will be blood brothers.
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Miss bcooter has wisdom beyond her years.
Indeed! All that insight and only 4 years old.
Impressive, young Jedi.
-Brad
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Indeed! All that insight and only 4 years old.
Impressive, young Jedi.
-Brad
Perhaps Cooter is a great centre of learning?
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(It wasn't but a few months ago at Photokina, that Leica and Phase were slow dancing with each other talking about another form of shared alliances with software and lenses though now we're told uh-uh, nope, never happened, Leica is going their own way and will dance solo.)
I must be out of the loop but when did this happen?
Thanks Denis
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...the Japanese press release does say the LS lens is for dedicated use with the 645DF.
Now this throws me for a loop. Every Phamiya owner I have heard talk about the LS lenses has spoken as if they will buy one or two when released, mount them to their (existing) camera, and start shooting with fill flash in the sunshine.
How many existing Phamiya owners knew they would (might) need a new body for this?
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Now this throws me for a loop. Every Phamiya owner I have heard talk about the LS lenses has spoken as if they will buy one or two when released, mount them to their (existing) camera, and start shooting with fill flash in the sunshine.
How many existing Phamiya owners knew they would (might) need a new body for this?
I did
i think upgrade from phamiya camera to the new one with the leaf shutter will be around 1000 euros which is less what a leaf shutter lens from Hasselblad costs
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If you look at the 645DF camera, all it shows is an AFDIII camera with a plastic mockup grip (grip is without real buttons or dials).
I was wondering if anybody noticed that before.
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New camera from Mamiya, vertical grip & 80 LS lens specs.
http://translate.google.com.au/translate?h...cial%26hs%3DeWM (http://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.digitalcamera.jp/&ei=8TXMSar1GYiU6gP0-5mhBw&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=4&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmamiya%2B645DF%2Bcamera%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US%3a%6ffficial%26hs%3DeWM)
This link will take you to the translated page of the Japanese photo show. Go down to the Mamiya photos & click above to get the specs of the new Mamiya stuff.
From what I read the camera is the Mamiya 645DF ( digital only, open system) weight 1030g without batteries
GB 401 grip is for the 645DF 400 g with batteries ability for radio control to external flash
80 mm 2.8 LS D lens 450g, flash sync 1/500 max
Denis
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I did
i think upgrade from phamiya camera to the new one with the leaf shutter will be around 1000 euros which is less what a leaf shutter lens from Hasselblad costs
The leaf shutter is not in the camera, it's in each individual lens. SO you will have to pay close to Hassy lens prices per mamiya lens anyways.....
But I seem to recall that the AFD III was Leaf Shutter compatible/ready.
Please correct me if you know for sure.
am
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Now this throws me for a loop. Every Phamiya owner I have heard talk about the LS lenses has spoken as if they will buy one or two when released, mount them to their (existing) camera, and start shooting with fill flash in the sunshine.
How many existing Phamiya owners knew they would (might) need a new body for this?
From CI's blog a few moths back... and still posted there:
These lenses will make the Phase One 645 AF the first system in the medium format digital world to use a dual shutter system. This will give photographers ultra-fast shutter speeds (up to 1/4000th) when shooting available light, and a fast flash sync speed of 1/800th when shooting with strobes.
Not an indictment (at all!) on those guys... but just an example of how one could easily read into this that the phamiya cam will be compatible with the new LS lenses. It may be, but it would seem as though only after modification.
We'll see...
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How many existing Phamiya owners knew they would (might) need a new body for this?
I knew it too.
,
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I knew it too.
,
Here is a little more detail on a few topics -
First, I will have to say, as Michael indicated, it is unknown what the actual investment amounted to and whether that resulted in a controlling interest stake. And I say this primarily for Howard's benefit .
But regardless of that aspect, the investment was substantial, and the result is that the rudder for Mamiya R & D, pricing, distribution, marketing, etc is now being steered by Phase One. We obviously have had R & D input for some time, but this raises the stake much higher than input, and control of distribution, marketing, etc, puts us in a very "driving the bus" position.
Regarding the Leaf Shutter lenses, we have promoted the Phase One Camera (AFD-III) as Leaf Shutter ready. This means no cables or special adapters are required. It may be possible that a firmware update is necessary. But if you're on the fence and wondering if you should go forward on a P1 Camera system right now because of compatibility concerns, the P1 camera (AFD-III) is compatible with those lenses.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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I wonder if Hasselblad would open back up their H platform
as a reaction to this announcement, and to the challenge from Leica S2?
It certainly would make for continuing interesting times in the medium format world.
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Here is a little more detail on a few topics -
First, I will have to say, as Michael indicated, it is unknown what the actual investment amounted to and whether that resulted in a controlling interest stake. And I say this primarily for Howard's benefit .
But regardless of that aspect, the investment was substantial, and the result is that the rudder for Mamiya R & D, pricing, distribution, marketing, etc is now being steered by Phase One. We obviously have had R & D input for some time, but this raises the stake much higher than input, and control of distribution, marketing, etc, puts us in a very "driving the bus" position.
Regarding the Leaf Shutter lenses, we have promoted the Phase One Camera (AFD-III) as Leaf Shutter ready. This means no cables or special adapters are required. It may be possible that a firmware update is necessary. But if you're on the fence and wondering if you should go forward on a P1 Camera system right now because of compatibility concerns, the P1 camera (AFD-III) is compatible with those lenses.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
I would still like to see a new body that is more ala DSLR style with better ergonomics and some additional features. But that wish list is a separate thread. More than anything here and maybe what has been glossed over a little is Phase is moving forward in some really tough times and more importantly a company for current users that will survive and we can grow our systems. People tend not to look forward a few years from now as our bodies start to age we need replacements and without taking a complete bath on a new purchase we still have our lenses and accessories and avoid the I have go out and replace the whole system with another brand scenario. It is very costly switching systems, trust me I know this all to well. I wish Phase a lot of luck and i have a good feeling they will be pushing a lot of new products through the door soon.
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I think the first order of business is for these guys to decide where they're going to place this new camera in the marketplace. I see at least two forks in the road: (1) A weekend-warrior camera, aimed at advanced amateurs, but where PRICE is the main driving factor, or (2), a true, solid, hard-working professional camera aimed at the H market and the rental market, but where price is secondary and QUALITY is primary. If they choose (1), then there's not that much work to be done. If they choose (2), then they've got their work cut out for them, and few tiny firmware upgrades are not going to overcome the general professional perpection out there that the Mamiya camera is a plastic-feeling, non-workhorse, shutter-lagged camera, that cannot be fully trusted in true pro advertising situations.
Many pros once owned the film version of the Mamiya 645, and they remember the lackluster build quality. Those memories do not die quickly. And then, you pick up those plastic-feeling lenses of today, and you don't think hardworking pro camera -- you think Adam Sandler Wedding Camera.
So it's Mamiya's and Phase's choice to make. But in this challenged economy, I'd probably pick the first option, slap some duct tape on it, and sell as many as they can while MF is still alive.
As we all know, Perception can be greater than Reality, so if Phase wants to remove the Edsel perception of that camera, they need to start from the ground up. Every time I see a picture of that camera, my first thought is PLASTIC, which is not a good thing.
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I think the first order of business is for these guys to decide where they're going to place this new camera in the marketplace. I see at least two forks in the road: (1) A weekend-warrior camera, aimed at advanced amateurs, but where PRICE is the main driving factor, or (2), a true, solid, hard-working professional camera aimed at the H market and the rental market, but where price is secondary and QUALITY is primary. If they choose A, then there's not that much work to be done. If they choose B, then they've got their work cut out for them, and few tiny firmware upgrades are not going to overcome the general professional perpection out there that the Mamiya camera is a plastic-feeling, non-workhorse, shutter-lagged camera, that cannot be fully trusted in true pro advertising situations.
Many pros once owned the film version of the Mamiya 645, and they remember the lackluster build quality. Those memories do not die quickly. And then, you pick up those plastic-feeling lenses of today, and you don't think hardworking pro camera -- you think Adam Sandler Wedding Camera.
So it's Mamiya's and Phase's choice to make. But in this challenged economy, I'd probably pick A option, slap some duct tape on it, and sell as many as they can while MF is still alive.
As we all know, Perception can be greater than Reality, so if Phase wants to remove the Edsel perception of that camera, they need to start from the ground up. Every time I see a picture of that camera, my first thought is PLASTIC, which is not a good thing.
So what about a Leica S2 competator then ? Basically a ZD update, but with all phase technology and maybe even smaller (why not use the 39MP chip whillst you are at it). I assume that using the P65+ chip would not only make a compact MF system prohibitively expensive as a "fixed system" package, but may also even starve P65 sales. A product based on the now no-longer flag-ship P45+ would be a real good business decision, especially if you can bring it in around the sme price as the S2 (approx $10K). this sort of Uber travel camera or in the field camera might be a real winner, especially if use the best battery technology around and a good LCD on the back of the thing too.
I say go for it.
EJ
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Memo to Phase: Think RZ. A digital RZ, perhaps smaller, that takes the RZ/RB lenses. A flexbody type RZ as well. I use the RZ system as my exclusive digital system, with a Leaf 54s H mount back. A friend sold me his 54s really, really, really cheap. Its H mount, so I bought the H to RZ Leaf adaper, and man, this set up is superior to almost all of the MF cameras out there, for my needs. Only the AFi/Hy6/6008 is better but, at the time I gave up on MFD and went all Canon and film, absurdley expensive.
Isn't it odd that two of the best MFDB camera systems (Contax and RZ) are ancient (for digital) designs? I hope Phase can do something with the AFd series. I love my AFd for film, but its a dog with Digital. The AFd2 was better built and had the * AF-on, but the shutter lag was just stupid and frustrating. I hear they have addressed this issue somewhat with the AFd3/Phase camera. If I ever get a new MFD system it will probably be an AFi/Hy6, but then again, it is too much of an investment (mainly lenses because you can't rent them anywhere) in this brave new world of media disintegration.
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$10K?
Dream on.
You know, it could be like Leica to offer the body for $10K (though I agree that's it's HIGHLY unlikely )... But of course if they did, the lenses will cost $10K each too LOLOLOLOL!
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I think the first order of business is for these guys to decide where they're going to place this new camera in the marketplace.
Who does Phase market this camera to?
Well, imo, anyone who's mindset is stuck in 1994, because the AFDIII or IV may be an improvement on the AFD but not in the looks department, and regardless of what body works with what leaf shutter lens, as of today there are no leaf shutter lenses for sale for this camera, so it's not really an issue. They're promised, they probably will come but right now the only leaf shutter lens anyone has seen is under glass in Japan and requires a babbelfish translation. When they do hit the streets there will also be asterisks involved. 1/800th of a second becomes 1/400th and dealers are changing their websites as we speak to reflect this.
Until Phase/Mamiya have a whole range of these lenses it probably doesn't matter what body they go on and since nobody is talking price you can just assume that two of these lenses will cost more than a D3x and by the time they hit the street a D3x will probably become a D700x, sell for $2,800 and have full high def video.
Now if Phase wants to sell these cameras to the country club set, they need a new logo. Hasselblad and that red dot Leica carry some weight at Pebble beach, but I doubt seriously if anyone other than the Brooks students that valet the cars knows what a Mamiya, Phase One or Phamamamayia is and even if they do, they can't afford them. If Phase really wanted the seminar set they should have latched on to the HY6 demanded it be called a Rolleiflex and sold it like an Aston Martin at an almost Ford price, not a Ford at Aston Martin prices.
If Phase is selling to the pro fesssion al advertising photographer, then they need some more straight talk and better start listing sell dates and prices, rather than posting strategic alliance pdfs.
Everyone is aware that Hasselblad already has Leaf shutter lenses in place, has a large dealer network and most importantly was the first to address price. That's a tough combination to beat.
I would also suggest Phase make these cameras durable and get these things in rental because I don't have the exact numbers but I doubt seriously if most high end cosmetic ads shot with a 39mpx camera is owned by the photographer, at least in the all important micro world of New York City.
Times have changed and the shake out is just starting.
My "close" personal friend BCooter compared medium format to the bloods and crips and that's too modern of a comparison. Medium format is like going back in time and watching the jets and the sharks fight over some territory in New York and not realizing that New York is now BMW 3 series and over leveraged Condos, and the kids riding the subway to NYU (prime advertising consumers), are wearing Justin Timberlake jeans and reading and blogging on I-phones and blackberrys rather than Levi's, the NY times and Life Magazine.
Medium format talks 16 bit, vs. 14bit, 1/3 stop more DR, micro/macro image detail, but the truth is medium format sells megapixels instead of usability and selling file size is not a growing business. Ask Getty and Corbis how many high rez jpegs they sell vs. web sized 72ppi and you'll understand that web based advertising is the only growing segment in the ad biz and web based advertising doesn't require 60mpx.
Ask Getty, Corbis, Hasselblad and Phase how are sales, because even in today's economy they should be good, because there are more photographers than ever, more use of images than ever, more places to display the images than ever. That should equate the higher sales of cameras and images, not less. If the sales are good, then keep gong down the same path, but if not, then it's time for a rethink.
Actually the medium format biz needs to learn how to market at ground level.
Canon got it right (or lucky, or both) with Vincent La Forte and his 2 minute nighttime video. Vincent probably sold more 5d2's than every dealer on the planet with just a one evening shoot because that is a camera, hobbled or not, that has something that looks like the future attached to the price. The problem is while Canon and Nikon are making hybrid still and video cameras, medium format is trying to make basic lenses and $5,000 tilt shift devices.
I know the traditionalists, especially on this forum will scream to high heaven about dslrs and moving imagery, but if the image is captivating, the story is unique, the presentation is compelling people will watch and in the visual image game getting people to look at anything past 30 seconds is considered a win. Even if the user never turns on the video of a 5d2, they still get 22mpx for the price of a medium format lens.
But if it's uber detail you want, make a petition to Canon and Nikon to offer a non AA filtered camera, because I've always believed a lot of the oversharp look of medium format comes as much from no aa filter as file size. Try a Leica M8 and you'll understand.
Today I got an e-mail from one of the first digital techs in NY who has moved to LA and now offers his services for the Red. This is a smart guy who has worked at this biz for a long time and he sees the future and realizes if he's going to drop 40 grand for a camera and 4,000 hours of learning curve it needs to do more than sit on a tripod and take pictures of trees or models on a white cove at the Piers.
JRR
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Like I've said in my first reply to the thread, if Phase/Mamiya could revive the original ZD with a 36x48 (or even larger, close to 645 FF) sensor, the map of medium format world will be completely redrawn.
Re. marketing, P1 could use their own brand name for the premium segment, on a detachable back etc. while retaining Mamiya as a brand for the mid-low end mass market.
Once you get volume, price will come down ... no one does this better than Japanese companies. The S2 is just a wrong bet, nothing to look at really ... I had very high hope with it at the beginning when rumor says Phase was behind it.
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hasselblad wont go back to open format hey equate it with as told to me by a hassy rep "will canon allow you to put a nikon chip on their camera or vice versa? thats why we wont allow other chips on ours "
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hasselblad wont go back to open format hey equate it with as told to me by a hassy rep "will canon allow you to put a nikon chip on their camera or vice versa? thats why we wont allow other chips on ours "
I'm sure this (extremely poor) justification is not widely shared by Hasselblad employees. Such reason sounds like a 5-year-old justifying to his mom why he's going to jump off a bridge.
Then again, I've thought about this myself, and find it hard to justify closing the system in this day and age from the financial POV. If Hasselblad was like Apple (ie. closed from the beginning), it wouldn't be so drastic. But being open, then closing it, burned a lot of goodwill in the user base.
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You know, it could be like Leica to offer the body for $10K (though I agree that's it's HIGHLY unlikely )... But of course if they did, the lenses will cost $10K each too LOLOLOLOL!
We can but dream, maybe $20K is more like it ?
I am sure i heard the S2 was going to be $12K (which is what I meant to type), but as you suggest that is body only, maybe I'll have to fashion a pinhole lens out of a bit of card then ?!
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IMO many people don't buy Hasselblad's "closed concept" simply because they prefer the Phase backs, imagine now Hassy opens up their interfaces they're probably looking forward to losing at least half of their installations.
Looking at the flip side, Phase says their interfaces are open, open to whom? Hassy closes up already, Rollei is on its death bed, the only viable option is Mamiya anyways.
I'm not trying to make a judgment whether this practice is good or bad ... speaking on my own behalf, the choice is always MINE so I couldn't care less.
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I would have been ecstatic to see Phase partner or become majority investor with F&H and work with the Hy6 platform. It just seems weird to me to see probably the best digital back maker tie themselves up to the camera platform with the least going for it ( hold your flames - this is only my opinion nothing more ).
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It just seems weird to me to see probably the best digital back maker tie themselves up to the camera platform with the least going for it ( hold your flames - this is only my opinion nothing more ).
Never mind, Eric ... it'll become the platform with the most going for it from now on (let's hope so).
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Hi
A few years ago in July of 2007 we saw 2 people from Hasselblad, they came from Europe. They were talking to certain professional photographers here in Sydney, I guess to see what we all were shooting with. At the time we said Leaf/Mamiya but in the end what they were most concerned about was Canon. They felt that Canon in Australia had the biggest penetration in our market, They could not believe how many photographers were using Canon. They said in Europe there were more photographers using MFD. What I found most interesting is that these Hasselblad guys were not talking about Sinar,Leaf & Phase. They felt thee competition was from Canon. Well I know the guys really well at Canon here & they have been having some record sales lately. With the 5DII I think they have caught up with demand now. Also Nikon has come back big time too since 2007.
Denis
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I wonder if Hasselblad would open back up their H platform
Oh I would certainly pay to have that happen with Phase Backs
Those Mamiya/Phamiya bodies are a POS!
Add that to the C1Pro V4. debacle--mores the sad
DesW
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Maybe they will give us a digital Mamiya 7...
:-)
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Oh I would certainly pay to have that happen with Phase Backs
Those Mamiya/Phamiya bodies are a POS!
Add that to the C1Pro V4. debacle--mores the sad
DesW
Gidday Des
Gee isn't it interesting that you think the Mamiya/Phase cameras are a POS whereas I think they're great, but then personally, I think the only good use for a Hasselblad/Fujiblad is a paperweight.
Hope you're enjoying the diving on the Barrier.
Cheers
Simon
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Gidday Des
Gee isn't it interesting that you think the Mamiya/Phase cameras are a POS whereas I think they're great, but then personally, I think the only good use for a Hasselblad/Fujiblad is a paperweight.
Hope you're enjoying the diving on the Barrier.
Cheers
Simon
Ha Simon,
My seconds will be touch-- the choice of Elephant shall be yours!
Des
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Never mind, Eric ... it'll become the platform with the most going for it from now on (let's hope so).
Well that's sort of my point - how long have Mamiya shooters waited for leaf shutter lenses and now just getting 1/400. Plenty of better cameras out there already much more developed with wonderful lenses. Sure Mamiya has a few nice lenses now but which ones have leaf shutters? Anyhow go ahead and wait a few years - you still won't have half of what Contax and Rollei shooters have had for 10 years or more. And if Mamiya comes out with a new camera body and new lenses do you expect them to be cheaper than used Rollei or Contax lenses? Probably not..... So go ahead and wait. It's always your choice.
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Well that's sort of my point - how long have Mamiya shooters waited for leaf shutter lenses and now just getting 1/400. Plenty of better cameras out there already much more developed with wonderful lenses. Sure Mamiya has a few nice lenses now but which ones have leaf shutters? Anyhow go ahead and wait a few years - you still won't have half of what Contax and Rollei shooters have had for 10 years or more. And if Mamiya comes out with a new camera body and new lenses do you expect them to be cheaper than used Rollei or Contax lenses? Probably not..... So go ahead and wait. It's always your choice.
You may also consider that future digital backs may not support Contax and Rollei, which can eventually been used as paper weight or door stop at your preferences.
On another note, it would be interesting to get a statistic of which one of mamiya, Contax or hasselblad get serviced more often on these days.
On the mamiya pro days, the hassys and pentax 67 were serviced the most. Surprisingly, the "plasticy" POS Mamiya were failing at a lower rate than the others. it felt cheap but it hardly broke down. On the other hand the hassy felt sturdy, but boys, it was visiting the shop more often than a Ducati.
Most of the times that I rented a Contax 645 I needed to use the back up body. May be a coincidence but, I also listened to colleagues opinion saying that the Contax is a "stupid" camera that break down too often.
So much for snubbing mamiya, but there are all kind of opinions and experiences with different cameras. To each its own, I would say.
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.....
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That's funny about the Ducati! Certainly true for the one I had.
I was speaking with a camera dealer here in the bay area that sets up cameras for scientific use and he was telling me how reliable the Rollei's were - and how accurate they were in terms of exposure and such. Much more so than other makes. He found that the average life before service on the lenses was 1,000,000 frames.
I hope there is a back for my 6008 AF in the future - I understand that I can have the p65+ fitted to it - so at least for a while its still an option.... And I hope F&H pulls through too.
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"This is excellent news for both Phase One and Mamiya owners, because the relationship between digital sensors (backs) and a camera's optical train is becoming increasingly significant. By combining Phase's world-leading expertise in digital imaging with Mamiya's decades long excellence in lens design and fabrication can only mean good things for us photographers going forward"
Quoted from Michaels interview with Henrik O. Håkonsson.
Doesn't this sound eerily familiar? Can everyone say Hassleblad?
My prediction.
Closed Mamiya/Phase system within 12mths.
Cheers,
Jason.
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"This is excellent news for both Phase One and Mamiya owners, because the relationship between digital sensors (backs) and a camera's optical train is becoming increasingly significant. By combining Phase's world-leading expertise in digital imaging with Mamiya's decades long excellence in lens design and fabrication can only mean good things for us photographers going forward"
Quoted from Michaels interview with Henrik O. Håkonsson.
Doesn't this sound eerily familiar? Can everyone say Hassleblad?
My prediction.
Closed Mamiya/Phase system within 12mths.
Cheers,
Jason.
Hi
Why close the system? Think about it, with the MAC Group USA, for every DL28 or DL33 that sells some of that money is going to Phase One. The MAC Group is an excellent company & do you think that they would care? This is what I call a win win situation, so why close it?
Denis
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Hi
Why close the system? Think about it, with the MAC Group USA, for every DL28 or DL33 that sells some of that money is going to Phase One. The MAC Group is an excellent company & do you think that they would care? This is what I call a win win situation, so why close it?
Denis
Why go closed? Because there is no money to be made in bodies. The manufacturers which are thriving are those which manufacture backs.
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Exactly, the MAC does not even enter the equation. It will be what Phase thinks will sell the most backs. And we all know how it went for Hassleblad. Oh that's right, they survived and are doing quite nicely by all accounts.
Not voteing either way, just saying what is blindingly obvious.
Cheers,
Jason.
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Exactly, the MAC does not even enter the equation. It will be what Phase thinks will sell the most backs. And we all know how it went for Hassleblad. Oh that's right, they survived and are doing quite nicely by all accounts.
Not voteing either way, just saying what is blindingly obvious.
Cheers,
Jason.
So what you are saying is close the system & let Leaf/Sinar try to resolve the F&H problem? This is every man for himself?
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"This is excellent news for both Phase One and Mamiya owners, because the relationship between digital sensors (backs) and a camera's optical train is becoming increasingly significant. By combining Phase's world-leading expertise in digital imaging with Mamiya's decades long excellence in lens design and fabrication can only mean good things for us photographers going forward"
Quoted from Michaels interview with Henrik O. Håkonsson.
Doesn't this sound eerily familiar? Can everyone say Hassleblad?
My prediction.
Closed Mamiya/Phase system within 12mths.
Cheers,
Jason.
I can't agree.
The whole industry is moving toward software based optical correction, so Phase doing so with some of their new lenses is to be expected. But, to my knowledge, they remain seriously committed to open systems. The two are not in conflict.
Stay tuned. More on this soon, and it won't be about the system being closed.
Michael
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I just hope Mamiya/Phase One continue to keep two (three) of my favorite systems alive, the RB/RZ and the 7/7II Rangefinder.
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yes, yes, yes
that's an idea that wasn't mentioned in this thread, beside the different backs, and maybe an all in one Reflex with a >30 MP sensor, there is now a least a chance to see a Mamiya 7D. There IS a market for this kind of stuff!
Tom-
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yes, yes, yes
that's an idea that wasn't mentioned in this thread, beside the different backs, and maybe an all in one Reflex with a >30 MP sensor, there is now a least a chance to see a Mamiya 7D. There IS a market for this kind of stuff!
Tom-
a mamiya 7d would be great.
On the other hand, Phase one controlling Mamiya, means BMW pricing and policies, when what they are selling is not even close to BMW quality. I actually like BMW warranty system and policy but we drive a BMW out of their dealer ship. By not means owning and using a Phase or Mamiya product give the same kind of experience, performance or reliability.
Not that Hasselblad is much better anyway, they are at best a Saab or a Volvo.
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Stay tuned. More on this soon, and it won't be about the system being closed.
Michael
Let's hope the news is about the Rolleiflex and the Phase folks are making HY6 adapters as we speak.
To some extent these are tools, but on the higher end, when a camera and back is minimum twice the price of a Nikon or Canon, these cameras fall more into the want than need catagory.
The strangest thing about all of this is if you made a check list of what a photographer wants from a camera system I don't think you would end up with what we have today.
Who would have thought that in the high end of professional cameras no Zeiss lenses, or the name Rolleiflex would be replaced with a private label. Who would have dreamed that Hasselblad would outsource to Fuji or when all the digital shakeup is completed one of the few cameras left standing would have been a Mamiya 645 and the tilt shift lenses would be rebadged from the Ukraine?
Does anyone actually lust over a Mamiya 645?
Imacon/Hasselblad is lucky because they still have that famous logo and regardless of what anyone says, where things are made, how much they cost, the logo means something.
[attachment=12568:mfdcameras.jpg]
It's the HY6, AFI. that confuses me. It is in the lust category, but instead of just calling the thing Rolleiflex, painting it in beautiful black, offering a wide angle lens and making a clear statement of what this camera does, to this day it is still confusing. Can you get a 90 degree prism, can you rotate a digital back on this camera without disconnecting, how many lenses are available in autofocus and the big one, can/will this camera show up in rental? Obviously if I can post these questions others have also so somehow, somebody missed the chance to put this camera out there with a lot of resource.
I assume it's a money decision, but since none of these companies write in clear speak, who knows?
People cried when Contax went belly up, but with just a few slight changes the HY6 Rolleiflex could be THE professional camera, though instead Phase options the 1,000 horsepower Mamiya.
It's not that the Mamiya 645 is a bad camera, it's not, it's competent, the "prior" versions were reasonable in price, but when I look at that photo of the AFD it doesn't look that much different than all of the other dslrs I have in cases and when you drop many tens of thousands of dollars on cameras, you want to unzip that case and see it glow like the briefcase in Pulp Fiction. Especially when you start talking price in the $45,000 range.
Since the start of digital capture the tail started wagging the dog. It's as if Shell and Exxon bought all the car companies, (actually I guess today they probably could) and started rebranding them.
If the car companies were like medium format cameras then the Shell Jaguar would only work well with Shell gasoline, the Exxon Porsche would . . . . . . well you get the idea.
Has any driver ever lusted over a brand of petroleum?
To me, Nikon, Canon and Sony get it. They understand that a digital camera should still look like a camera, act like a camera and function like one. They give you an LCD that actually does replace a polaroid, will shoot without 350 lbs of computer tagging along and have file formats that works at any "lab". Sony even knows that Zeiss carries some weight and I don't think anyone can discount what any of these three companies can do if they set their mind and wallets to it.
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Exactly, the MAC does not even enter the equation. It will be what Phase thinks will sell the most backs. And we all know how it went for Hassleblad. Oh that's right, they survived and are doing quite nicely by all accounts.
Not voteing either way, just saying what is blindingly obvious.
Cheers,
Jason.
MAC has everything to do with Mamiya, at least in the US. MAC owns the trade mark "Mamiya" in the US and is the exclusive agent for importation. If anything has Mamiya stamped on it, and its not imported by MAC, it is contraband and is subject to seizure. If MAC doesn't play ball Mamiya cannot import anything into the US, Phase or no Phase.
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MAC has everything to do with Mamiya, at least in the US. MAC owns the trade mark "Mamiya" in the US and is the exclusive agent for importation. If anything has Mamiya stamped on it, and its not imported by MAC, it is contraband and is subject to seizure. If MAC doesn't play ball Mamiya cannot import anything into the US, Phase or no Phase.
So, isn't it interesting that Phase One's cameras and lenses are branded... wait for it... Phase One, not Mamiya.
Frankly, I don't think that in the high-end and pro market Mamiya has too much cache. The name Phase One does, because it's associated with high-end gear.
Time will tell.
Michael
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So, isn't it interesting that Phase One's cameras and lenses are branded... wait for it... Phase One, not Mamiya.
Frankly, I don't think that in the high-end and pro market Mamiya has too much cache. The name Phase One does, because it's associated with high-end gear.
Time will tell.
Michael
Hi Michael
With Phase One now in control of Mamiya are you saying there will be a name change?
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So, isn't it interesting that Phase One's cameras and lenses are branded... wait for it... Phase One, not Mamiya.
Frankly, I don't think that in the high-end and pro market Mamiya has too much cache. The name Phase One does, because it's associated with high-end gear.
Time will tell.
Michael
My point was that MAC is a factor in any decision to make future Mamiya cameras Phase One only. I have no idea where the MAC Group factors into the Phase One branded AFdXX cams.
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You may also consider that future digital backs may not support Contax and Rollei, which can eventually been used as paper weight or door stop at your preferences.
On another note, it would be interesting to get a statistic of which one of mamiya, Contax or hasselblad get serviced more often on these days.
On the mamiya pro days, the hassys and pentax 67 were serviced the most. Surprisingly, the "plasticy" POS Mamiya were failing at a lower rate than the others. it felt cheap but it hardly broke down. On the other hand the hassy felt sturdy, but boys, it was visiting the shop more often than a Ducati.
Most of the times that I rented a Contax 645 I needed to use the back up body. May be a coincidence but, I also listened to colleagues opinion saying that the Contax is a "stupid" camera that break down too often.
So much for snubbing mamiya, but there are all kind of opinions and experiences with different cameras. To each its own, I would say.
Interesting views in this thread! I've owned H'blad 500s and FC, Rollei 6008s and Mamiya Pro, AFD II and III, though only the last two with with a digital back.
The Rolleis were utterly reliable. I used them for about ten years and never once had a problem with either body or any lenses.
The H'blads were in the shop annually - usually because of ill-fitting magazines or shutter problems. I gave them up for the Rolleis.
My first Mamiya Pro was stolen so I don't know how reliable it would have been, but the AFD II and III have been faultless for several years. I hear a lot about "build quality" and "plasticky" but I just don't see it. Mine feel solid and rugged. (And the lenses are anything but plasticky.)
As you say, each to his own!
Bill
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So, isn't it interesting that Phase One's cameras and lenses are branded... wait for it... Phase One, not Mamiya.
Frankly, I don't think that in the high-end and pro market Mamiya has too much cache. The name Phase One does, because it's associated with high-end gear.
Time will tell.
Michael
Michael,
With all due respect, I can promise you that in the world of high end professional photography, from New York to LA, LA to Paris, Paris to Milan, there are more Mamiya cameras (mostly RZ's) that are available and used for more campaigns and editorials than anything branded Phase One on the front end. Most of them with film, though a lot of digital backs still go on RZ's.
Even if the RZ disappeared today, it has a reputation that will take another decade to erase in the professional ranks.
Nobody has an issue with the name Mamiya, it's just the 645 AFD that has always been the weak sister. The 7, the RZs have amazing loyalty and reputations and if there were "easy and affordable" digital solutions that allowed the use of the complete frame, those cameras would still be selling.
Nobody is knocking the quality of a Phase One back, but as stated if Phase is going after all markets, including the Country Club set, a Phase One camera won't get a lot of recognition, if you compare it to the brand equity of Rollei, Leica and Hasselblad.
Your a good example of this. You've gone from Rollei, to Contax, to Hasselblad, now to the Phase/Mamiya 645 and when you made those first three purchases the Mamiya 645 was available.
So why the change of heart now considering like a lot of people you do most of your processing in either lightroom or photoshop, so many of the so called digital integration advantages are bypassed.
There is nothing wrong with brand loyalty and obviously when it came time to write the check you chose Phase, but even though this is pure speculation, I'm willing to bet that if Phase had gone to the Rollei platform, of could have stayed with Hasselblad your P65 would not be mounted on camera with a Phase One logo.
But your right, time will tell.
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Or, as the late, great, governor from Alaska, Sarah Palin, once said, "You can put lipstick on a pig, but I'm still a pig."
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Who would have thought that (...) the tilt shift lenses would be rebadged from the Ukraine?
According to this info on their site http://www.hartblei.de/de/optics-by-carl-zeiss.htm (http://www.hartblei.de/de/optics-by-carl-zeiss.htm) Hartblei claims an improved quality. The glass comes from Zeiss in Germany and they are talking about "new" lenses. Too, there are new prices (updated in December): http://www.hartblei.de/de/pricelist.htm (http://www.hartblei.de/de/pricelist.htm)
All with regard to the lenses for 35mm SLR cameras. Does this apply to the 645 T/S lens as well?
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I can't agree.
The whole industry is moving toward software based optical correction, so Phase doing so with some of their new lenses is to be expected. But, to my knowledge, they remain seriously committed to open systems. The two are not in conflict.
Stay tuned. More on this soon, and it won't be about the system being closed.
Michael
Why would Phase not remain committed to keeping the AFD "open"? We have today two dominant players in the MFD market, Phase and Hasselblad. How many prospective Phase back owners would want to mount that back on a Hasselblad? Think in terms of a large arena to hold them. Now, how many prospective Hasselblad back owners would buy that Hasselblad back to put on a Mamiya/Phase AFD? Do we need a large or small motel room to hold them? The bottom line is that it costs them next to nothing to be magnanimous, yet look at the mileage they get out of it.
BTW, Phase's committment to open systems is phony. It only extends to the hardware side of the market. Ever notice that Phase's Capture One software, which they like to tout as the best in the industry, works with raw files from many DSLRs but only ONE brand of medium format digital back? Gee, I wonder how that happened.
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An open system won't bring too much benefit to the photographers who choose alternative solutions, this is especially true when software correction has become a trend in the industry, you'd expect Phase optimizing their sensor and firmware with Mamiya optics or Hassy optimizing for the Fujiblad lenses, are they obliged to support another company's products? will the other company fully cooperate? I don't think so.
35mm systems have been closed from the beginning, it has never become a problem.
According to some Japanese web sites, there are 2 major differences between the DF and AFD3, one is that the DF will only take digital backs, the other is improved AF performance with the DF. It is said there are other added features and functionalities but Mamiya is not giving out any detail.
IMO Phase made the best choice by picking Mamiya, I don't trust electronics from an European company when speaking in general.
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I wasn't casting any aspersions on Mamiya or Mamiya quality. But when it comes to cache, the brand name doesn't have it. It's kind of the Toyota of the MF industry.
Phase has a high end reputation, and so I think that what you'll see is an increasing transition to the use of the Phase One brand at the high end and the Mamiya brand below this. This is simply speculation on my part, but is similar to Toyota cultivating the Lexus brand name for their top products. Makes sense to me.
Michael
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Who does Phase market this camera to?
Well, imo, anyone who's mindset is stuck in 1994, because the AFDIII or IV may be an improvement on the AFD but not in the looks department, and regardless of what body works with what leaf shutter lens, as of today there are no leaf shutter lenses for sale for this camera, so it's not really an issue. They're promised, they probably will come but right now the only leaf shutter lens anyone has seen is under glass in Japan and requires a babbelfish translation. When they do hit the streets there will also be asterisks involved. 1/800th of a second becomes 1/400th and dealers are changing their websites as we speak to reflect this.
And a lot more from yesterday....
I just read this post and I think it is one of the strongest posts I have seen on this subject.
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There's one "medium format" camera in 2009 boasting "latest technology" but only uses a 14-bit A/D, so what's wrong with a "look" from 1994?
It is clearly written in the 80mm LS lens' spec sheet it can fully sync from 16 sec. to 1/500 sec.
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I wasn't casting any aspersions on Mamiya or Mamiya quality. But when it comes to cache, the brand name doesn't have it. It's kind of the Toyota of the MF industry.
You make it sound like it's a bad thing Toyota sells many more cars than Rolls Royce, and its stock has plunged "only" 40% since beginning of 2008, while Rolls has taken a deep-dive to 60%.
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And it doesn't help their case when used Mamiya gear is dirt cheap, yet great gear.
Well Mamiya doesn't want anyone buying the used gear, of course, because they don't make a penny out of it and that's their biggest problem. I would guess that Mamiya and the other camera makers are really feeling the recession right now. Especially Mamiya, if everyone has been picking up cheap used bodies and lenses and not many of the new offerings. I can't help feeling that this might be the reason for Phase One's cash injection but we may never know.
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Well Mamiya doesn't want anyone buying the used gear, of course, because they don't make a penny out of it and that's their biggest problem.
Of course they do: if two otherwise similar products have differing prices when sold used in 5 years time, the one with the higher used price is worth more. In other words, Mamiya will be able to ask for higher pricing because their products have a higher value when sold as used as opposed to some other brands.
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Of course they do: if two otherwise similar products have differing prices when sold used in 5 years time, the one with the higher used price is worth more. In other words, Mamiya will be able to ask for higher pricing because their products have a higher value when sold as used as opposed to some other brands.
I think you missed my point. It doesn't matter if they can ask for more, if no-one is buying new. Almost everyone on this board who got a Mamiya system bought used, from what I've read.
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I think you missed my point. It doesn't matter if they can ask for more, if no-one is buying new. Almost everyone on this board who got a Mamiya system bought used, from what I've read.
No, you did. Every used Mamiya sale now was already included in the selling price of the back when it was first sold years ago by Mamiya. If there was no secondary market for Mamiya backs (think Kindle books, iTunes music, or perishable goods), the price of the backs would be lower.
If "no-one" is buying new, Mamiya has already made the money off of those backs. Secondary market enables them to command higher prices in the primary market.
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No, you did. Every used Mamiya sale now was already included in the selling price of the back when it was first sold years ago by Mamiya....
Sorry but there seems to be real miscommunication going on here... Never mind.
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Car analogy: Hondas have the best resale value --this is not backed by research on my part, but I have that impression--. So that is positive for the brand, If you are deciding which way to go, you better consider two or three things: what do the big MF rental houses stock? What system has a ton of compatible good IQ lenses on eBay? and what MF company, or system will survive the current economic meltdown. What resale value is there in a GMC Suburban that you buy tomorrow if GMC decides to retire the Suburban model (Note: I am using the GMC Suburban as an example in this thread and don't literally mean to imply that the brand may or may not be coming to an end)
Sorry but there seems to be real miscommunication going on here... Never mind.
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I think you missed my point. It doesn't matter if they can ask for more, if no-one is buying new. Almost everyone on this board who got a Mamiya system bought used, from what I've read.
Not necessarily the case. Most of the new Mamiya/Phase One camera purchases are bundled with a digital back (either with Leaf or Phase One). Indeed sales of Mamiya cameras are likely doing quite well - even with the slowdown - as some Phase One dealers camera platform sales have shifted from majority H2 to majority Mamiya/Phase One. And sales of the new lenses also are doing well. Someone who has a 2nd generation digital back on an AFD or AFDII is not likely purchasing these lenses, but new buyers who buy the bundles definitely are.
Purchases of stand-alone Mamiya cameras has certainly dropped to a low number.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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[blockquote][/indent]I had heard some time ago that Phase would have a "new" camera this summer. I believed deep down that Phase would finally show signs of hope as most of their announcements in my mind had been dismal . It had been some time that Phase and Mamiya had been working together so perhaps that would finally bear fruit. It seems my hopes were too lofty.
[blockquote][/blockquote]In my mind Phase peaked around 2005 some 4 years ago. The P30 and 45 were new and the Hasselblad H system was open and good enough. Software was solid and all was well. In the years since their intro Phase has done the following: 1.)Rewritten the software (one of their main advantages) and made it arguably worse in many ways and most certainly MORE UNSTABLE. It seemed they changed just to change and we were/are the beta testers! Sure its faster and the file a bit cleaner, but for the trouble its been I would have preferred an evolution of 3.7 (anybody lose their Canon files in 4.5x?). 2.) Next, they rebranded the Mamiya body, and talked about lenses and accessories that only exist behind glass. Let us not even talk of Ukrainian tilt shift glass. 3.)Then they came out with 1 back the P65+ that answers the question nobody asked: Can you make $40K MF back that is only 15mpx. Oh, and if you bought the P65 right away it didn't even have this feature unless you shipped it back to them months latter. Did I mention the out of touch price? How about the the loss of long exposure once a Phase selling point? 4.)Next they rebranded the Mamiya camera. Wait! Didn't I just say that! So the new camera isn't so new after all.
[blockquote][/blockquote]So, in review Since 2005 Phase has offered no real advantage. The software is a debacle. Lightroom has come in force and although the file isn't as good as Phase it is amazing in its capabilities. People Like Michael have found it more than good enough. Do you think LR3 may catch up to Phase in output? Then Phase offers one new back with a price that is out of touch. Is there no other chip in nearly 4 years that is better than a P30 or 45 that is reasonable in cost not to mention all the other improvements that could be? There are many P30 and P45 user that want to upgrade but the 65 just isn't for them. Now the worst 645 system (mamiya) has a new name and a grip you still cant buy. So, 4 years latter the best overall choice seems to be a P30+ or P45+ with a H2 (if you can find one). Is that progress?
[blockquote][/blockquote] Phase, I own one of your backs. I have used them since the H20. I am a huge advocate of your product, but you guys are going the way of the drum scanner quick!
[indent][/blockquote]
Finally, I played with a p65 prototype last fall and I asked the rep if Phase had thought about video capability in the future to go head to head with RED and others. He told me I should buy a 5d2. I sure hope Phase has more up its sleeve beyond this camera and the P65, and no more promises like "wireless" that never see the light of day. The next Canon 1dsiV will destroy whats left unless something far more compelling in MFD pops up. Word is the canon might get delayed because of the bad economy. I guess that might be good news to Phase. I for one want Phase to survive....