Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Primus on March 22, 2009, 10:40:31 pm
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I've reached a point in my photography skills where family and friends are asking for my pictures to hang on their walls (I am mostly into wildlife and landscapes). I have an HP B9180 which is great, but the same 13x19 prints that looked huge at one time are now looking decidedly small, especially when viewed from a distance in a big office lobby.
So I am thinking of buying a 24 inch printer. From what I've read, the Epson 7900 seems the best choice currently, all things considered. Fortunately, money is not an object at this time (within the choices available). And 'she who must be obeyed' has given the nod, so it's a go. I do have some questions and would appreciate very much your responses before I take the plunge.
I am not a professional, just a passionate amateur. Someday somebody may pay me for my pictures, but right now it is just for my personal enjoyment and that of my family, my coworkers and friends.
1. Am I being stupid spending this kind of money on a printer when I am not going to sell those prints? Is there anybody else in my position?
2. What is a good price for the printer? Meridian in CA is offering it at $3075 net (along with 2 rolls of paper) - $500 mail in rebate and a $425 instant discount. This is the best deal I've found so far. They are listed on Epson's website as one of their retailers. Anybody bought from them?
3. Coming from the HP-B9180, I am in love with BW prints. Is the Epson as good, if not better?
4. Given that I may not be printing daily, is the printer self-cleaning, like the HP? How big is the problem with the clogs? I've gone over the thread on the head clogs on this forum and it bothers me a little. But it seems like other big printers have the same problems.
5. I've seen some buyer's remorse here, wrt having bought the wrong size printer. If I find myself in the same boat a few months from now (very unlikely), how easy is it to sell the printer for the 9900?
6. How about 3rd party paper? I mostly prefer matte or luster papers and I love the HP Hahnemuhle smooth fine art and also like the Red River polar matte. Any problems using those?
This is my first post here and I am sorry to ask what may be very basic questions. Unfortunately there are very few sites where a wide-format printer like this is discussed in some detail. I appreciate your answers very much.
Regards,
Pradeep
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1. Am I being stupid spending this kind of money on a printer when I am not going to sell those prints? Is there anybody else in my position?
NO!!! You only go around once, and if you love photography and making top-quality prints, then do it! I am in the same position and have not regretted for one second buying an Epson 4880 a few months ago. I may sell a few prints a year, but I have made a conscious decision that this is my avocation and not my vocation, so I am 100% free to please myself and not the customers.
Peter
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In regards to...
"5. I've seen some buyer's remorse here, wrt having bought the wrong size printer. If I find myself in the same boat a few months from now (very unlikely), how easy is it to sell the printer for the 9900?"
I convinced myself than I would NEVER EVER need to print anything bigger than my old 7800 could handle. WRONG! Over the weekend I framed 23.5" x 68.5" and 30" x 87.5" versions of the same image. What a huge difference a little bit of extra scale makes! The 30" version will sell for about twice the 23.5" version.
In general, I think it's easier to resell a 9900 than a 7900, and you will take a beating trading in a 7900 for 9900.
Don't be deterred by postings like the head clog ones. On forums like this there is an emphasis on problem solving that makes issues like that seem more common and more of a problem than they really are. The are a lot of happy, silent x900 users out there.
You can print on just about anything that will safely pass through through the printer. But if plan a lot of mix&match then invest in a low end print profiling device. The devices are especially useful for equalizing monochrome prints. I took the hour required to read both the large black & white and color targets with a Spyder 3 Print device, the result is a dead-neutral grayscale that the canned profiles can't even come close to.
And yes, you can count on some pretty decent looking B&W prints. Last time I was in the Andrew Smith gallery in Santa Fe, there were several big monochrome pieces of classic photography on the wall proudly labeled "Epson Pigment Print."
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Thanks, Bill and Peter. Makes me feel a bit better about my decision.
I think for now I will go with the 7900. Unless I begin to sell some prints I am going to have a hard time justifying the purchase to myself and to my wife. It is also much bigger and I doubt I will be able to find a place for it in my home office. Of course I may realize very soon that I've made a mistake! Oh well......
Pradeep
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Re: #2. That seems like a great price. At the last MacWorld in San Francisco in January, Meridian had a booth set up manned by both their people and Epson reps so I would be confident in a strong relationship. Don't know if you're a Bay area person but I bought my 7900 from Spectraflow another local company, they have an office a block from me. Besides great service and a good price if you're local they throw in an hour of onsite consultation. If you're not then it's done via phone.
They're active here at LL as well
http://www.spectraflow.com/ (http://www.spectraflow.com/)
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I agree with Peter...I agonized over the same decision although on a smaller scale. I finallaly bought a 4880 and totally love it.
Cheers...
Todd in Chicago
name='PeterAit' date='Mar 22 2009, 10:00 PM' post='270044']
NO!!! You only go around once, and if you love photography and making top-quality prints, then do it! I am in the same position and have not regretted for one second buying an Epson 4880 a few months ago. I may sell a few prints a year, but I have made a conscious decision that this is my avocation and not my vocation, so I am 100% free to please myself and not the customers.
Peter
[/quote]
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If your happy with the HP ink family, why are you not looking at the Z3200. Also an excellent printer and does very nice B&W. Having a "glop" nozzle makes for super glossy prints also.
bob
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3. Coming from the HP-B9180, I am in love with BW prints. Is the Epson as good, if not better?
4. Given that I may not be printing daily, is the printer self-cleaning, like the HP? How big is the problem with the clogs? I've gone over the thread on the head clogs on this forum and it bothers me a little. But it seems like other big printers have the same problems.
5. I've seen some buyer's remorse here, wrt having bought the wrong size printer. If I find myself in the same boat a few months from now (very unlikely), how easy is it to sell the printer for the 9900?
6. How about 3rd party paper? I mostly prefer matte or luster papers and I love the HP Hahnemuhle smooth fine art and also like the Red River polar matte. Any problems using those?
This is my first post here and I am sorry to ask what may be very basic questions. Unfortunately there are very few sites where a wide-format printer like this is discussed in some detail. I appreciate your answers very much.
Regards,
Pradeep
Hello Pradeep, Welcome to the club!
Indeed I also could not really justify the purchase of a HP Z3200 with my print sales, but I bought it anyway and now I sell more than before, but more important, it is such a joy to print. I went through all my "old" files, well organized in Lightroom, and reprinted many with amazing results. That is in terms of quality and the overwhelming beauty of (your first) 24"x 36". I’m an old black and white darkroom worker and for the first time I found the quality of the Z3200 prints outperforming my darkroom work. On Ilford Galerie Gold Fiber Silk that is, profile included but with the build-in spectro of the Z3200 you can use any kind of paper. Big advantage!
If you want bigger then 24"consider that you need a lot of pixels (medium format preferably) and a lot of room to place the machine and to walk around it with large prints.
BTW What made you so Epson minded? Nothing wrong with it, but for a satisfied HP B9180 user, I just wondered. Do not get negatively influenced by all the posts with piza wheel problems of the older Z3100, there are many more happy Z-users then unhappy, Z3100 users included!
Anyway, buy whatever you're happy with and join us; again, welcome to the club!
Bas
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Do not want to bust your bubble but I think if you are not or do not plan to sell prints their may be other choices . Something like the Epson 3800 would be perfect for you. Smaller footprint and fairly cheap to operate. You can print 17 X 22's and mat to 26" X 30". Pretty big for home owner printing,and selling too. I spent $7600.00 on startup with my 7900. $3995 for the printer,$1,000 for paper and canvas and $2600 for the 700ml set of inks. Remember the printer is pretty cheap but the consumables will eat you alive if your not generating revenue. When you charge your ink lines on setup 50% of the starter inkset is consumed in this process. Good luck with your choice.
Dan Berg
Bergs Canvas Gallery
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Hello Pradeep, Welcome to the club!
Indeed I also could not really justify the purchase of a HP Z3200 with my print sales, but I bought it anyway and now I sell more than before, but more important, it is such a joy to print. I went through all my "old" files, well organized in Lightroom, and reprinted many with amazing results. That is in terms of quality and the overwhelming beauty of (your first) 24"x 36". I’m an old black and white darkroom worker and for the first time I found the quality of the Z3200 prints outperforming my darkroom work. On Ilford Galerie Gold Fiber Silk that is, profile included but with the build-in spectro of the Z3200 you can use any kind of paper. Big advantage!
If you want bigger then 24"consider that you need a lot of pixels (medium format preferably) and a lot of room to place the machine and to walk around it with large prints.
BTW What made you so Epson minded? Nothing wrong with it, but for a satisfied HP B9180 user, I just wondered. Do not get negatively influenced by all the posts with piza wheel problems of the older Z3100, there are many more happy Z-users then unhappy, Z3100 users included!
Anyway, buy whatever you're happy with and join us; again, welcome to the club!
Bas
Bas and Bob, thank you.
Yes, I am one happy B9180 owner (though did have problems with several units that were replaced by HP under extended warranty), which I bought after reading Neil Snape's excellent review on it. I've yearned for a bigger printer and had the Z3100 in mind and then the Z3200. However, it appears (from what I've read here and on DPReview) that the Epson is the one to beat, esp. the X900 series. The price differential between the Z3200 24 and the 7900 is about $600 at Meridian, but the big brother HP is much more expensive ($5000 vs $7150).
I've still not given up on the HP, but leaning heavily towards the Epson. For that matter, I've also considered the Canon ?6100 (used to have an old i9900).
Still thinking.
Pradeep
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Don't know where you got your prices. This was the first shop that hit on Google. If I get the numbers, not much over $2k for the base 24" printer.
Looks like there's a rebate program ongoing.
But your money - your choice. I own both Epson and HP. My Epson 24" is fantastic as long as I keep it busy. The HP is better when it's used less frequently. Why, I don't know, just works out that way
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Hi Pradeep,
I recently picked up a refurbished Z3100. The dealer is a heavy HP refurbished outlet and was well known by HP when I called to check them out. They sell refurbished Z3100's for $1590. They were great to do business with and in that I'm Los Angeles area based (as they are) they didn't charge me for shipping.
When it arrived you wouldn't have know it was anything but brand new and comes with a full 1 year warranty. If you pay for it with an American Express credit card, American Express doubles the warranty to 2 years. The built in spectro saves an enormous amount of time and creates outstanding profiles that are much closer then the canned ones.
I went round an round as well because most everything I do could be called a serious hobby. I had an Epson R1800 and was kicking around the Epson 4880, but when I saw the price for the Z3100 I jumped and am not the least bit sorry I did. The unit came with the updated starwheel assembly and I can't give it a paper that it doesn't profile and make beautiful prints. I used to profile paper for the Epson clicking on 729 color patches by hand. Took over an hour and they were not as good as the profiles generated on the Z.
If you're interested, the company is Ama-Supply out of Los Angeles and they run their items through Ebay. Last I looked they had 3 Z3100's available (24").
Thanks,
Richard
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Thanks Richard, I will check to see if they have any Z3200s.
Bob, I think I made a mistake in looking up the numbers.
Checked on Meridian's website again, they are still the best so far:
Epson 7900 24" Net cost: $3075, 44" net: $5035 (both include free rolls of paper)
HP Z3200 24" Net cost:$2495, 44" net: $3795 - both have a $1200 cash back, BUT you have to give proof of ownership of another 24" or larger printer (i.e. it's an upgrade discount) from any company.
The HPs are slightly smaller (4" less on the width) and much lighter, the 44" weighs the same as the Epson 24".
From what I've read so far, if it weren't for the HP's paper loading/feeding problems it would be a no brainer.
If they can get me the upgrade discount, then just for $700 more than the 7900, I can get the 44" HP.
Man, this is getting even harder. I thought the choice was easier last night, when I didn't know.
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The HPs are slightly smaller (4" less on the width) and much lighter, the 44" weighs the same as the Epson 24".
Do you really want a lighter printer? Easy to move, but I wonder how much weight speaks to the durability and build quality?
Peter
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If you can afford it, what is the difference between spending money on this hobby or the next? You should definately buy a printer.
I started with an epson 4000 and found I enjoyed the possibilities that come with printing your own work; paper selection, rendering intent, all that stuff. I learned all the printing basics on that epson and had no complaints with the support offered. Unfortunately, the one thing that I didn't take into account is that the 4000 needs to be used every day. If you are a serious hobyist, but don't print every day, that printer would clog. It clogged so often, that it finally became habit to print a test image before trying to print my work. I could never count on just walking up and printing an image with out spending some time to verify I would get a good print. I think I used more ink on head cleanings that on my prints. Seriously.
When I went to the Z3100, all of these problems went away. I can let the printer set for weeks, send it a print job, and no problems. I consider this one of the best features of this printer.
So what's my point. It sounds like you won't be printing daily, just like my usage experience. Make sure you check to see if the printer you are buying will match your printing habits. I understand epson has made improvements since the 4000. I also understand not everyone had the clogging issue I had. Do your research. Then go for it!
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I've wondered about the weight difference myself, why does the Epson have to weigh 43 pounds more than the HP Z3200? That's a HUGE weight disadvantage and HP isn't exactly known for making flimsy products. The HP does look nice, but the paper handling, lack of a vacuum system make me wonder. I like the GE but I would like to see prints from both. Does the GE only make a difference on the very glossy papers? I still like the output of the Epson / Canon dye printers on glossy papers.
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I've wondered about the weight difference myself, why does the Epson have to weigh 43 pounds more than the HP Z3200?
Stability. Ever see one (or the other) shimmy while printing?
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Stability. Ever see one (or the other) shimmy while printing?
Actually I haven't seen either yet. When we are talking less than 200 pounds for one to weigh 43 pounds more than the other
makes you wonder why? That's a lot of weight, what's the benefit? The HP products don't fall apart.
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Actually I haven't seen either yet. When we are talking less than 200 pounds for one to weigh 43 pounds more than the other
makes you wonder why? That's a lot of weight, what's the benefit? The HP products don't fall apart.
The new Epson's are built like shit-brick houses. Having had to move a few, I can tell you they are monsters. But if you haven't seen either, last thing I'd worry about is the weight. Look at the output. Take some of your best quality images and have them output on both.
A Hummer and a Mini are not known to fall apart but I know which one I'd rather be in if weight and strength were a factor <g>
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I had decided to go with the 7900, but I was wondering about any gloss printing? I don't think even the Epson fans will dispute that the HP does much better on glossy media?
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I had decided to go with the 7900, but I was wondering about any gloss printing? I don't think even the Epson fans will dispute that the HP does much better on glossy media?
Call me an Epson fan if you want, but I've used all three brands of printers. My original attraction to the z3100 was the GO, but the output quality didn't cut it for me. I assume the 3200 is better, looking forward to giving it a test run.
The gloss differential of the current Epson's is rather insignificant - certainly nothing I worry about using Epson Exhibition Fiber, Epson Premium Luster, and Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta, Ilford Galarie Gold Fiber Silk, and Harman Gloss FB AL. The ipf6100 isn't quite as good as the Epson with gloss differential, but to borrow a word from Michael, the difference is a quibble ... I can't imagine it being an issue for someone using a Canon either.
I recall this being discussed at length in an earlier thread that was comparing the z3200 with the new Epsons. One point I made in that thread is to actually see Gloss differential requires manipulating the viewing angle pretty dramatically until you can "see" it. Holding the print in your hand makes it easy to change the angle of the light by moving the image. Once the print is displayed, the only way to do this is to "move" around physically, something which only those looking for it would even do. Reflections of the glass itself will also "interfere". I just can't imagine it ever being a problem in an image that is displayed, even if there is a very slight "hint" of it in the image.
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Obviously you guys have used all the printers from the dye days forward, so lay it on the line, compare the Z3100/Z3200 and the Epson 7900 to the Epson/Canon dye printers. Forget archiving for a moment, just the quality of the print, color gamut, GD and bronzing and punch. Wayne, you obviously have owned all the printers, I'd like to hear your opinion on this????
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I've finally decided to go for the Epson, most likely the 7900, unless I can think of coming up with the extra $2000 somehow for the 9900.
The clincher really was the hassle in loading paper from the back, having to move the printer out every time, not being able to keep it flush against the wall. Silly thing in the end, but all other things being about equal, this became the deal breaker. I know there will be differing opinions on this. The head clogging is not a problem if you print every few days or run a nozzle check once a week as per the dealer.
So thanks everyone who pitched in. You can bet I will be asking the gurus here for help as things move along.
Pradeep
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Just to put my two cents in as someone who has recently bought a 7900-- I get pretty obsessive about black and white printing and I really feel like the gloss differential is not an issue at all. HP and Epson take two completely different approaches to this obviously. I have not printed a single print yet that exhibits gloss differential at anything resembling a normal viewing angle. I just went through some prints holding them up to the light at a fairly extreme angle-- you would really have to go through a bunch of prints holding them up to the light like this to find the right print with extreme whites and blacks. Maybe with the HP's gloss layer, you wouldn't even be able to do this-- but I'm really talking about holding the print up to the light and looking right down the surface.
I don't have the breadth of experience that Wayne and some others here have across brands. I have seen quite a few prints from the Z3100 including some really outstanding black and white prints. I came down to choosing between the HP Z3200 and the Epson 7900. I agonized over image quality even though I knew they were both capable of genuinely outstanding output. Little things pushed me over the edge to Epson. Ease of use is definitely secondary to IQ, but if the IQ is outstanding, the little things count for something. e.g. the paper handling for both roll and sheet is extremely easy. The paper cutter can cut canvas and I believe is self-sharpening. Finally, I was already an Epson person so it was just easier for me to stick with a brand with which I was already familiar.
Is it perfect? No. MK/PK switching is quite easy, but I still think it's silly that they share the same head instead of adding a new one-- seems to need a few minutes of a cleaning cycle whenever I switch. Everything is solid, well-designed, and over-engineered, except . . . . what's up with that paper catcher? It seems like something that Magyver tossed together with whatever materials were on hand. But, I just have the printer wait to cut or hold the print after it's done printing. I cut/release the print manually so it's not a big deal.
So, maybe not perfect, but pretty darned excellent. Black and white output-- shadow details, tonal range, punchy blacks on gloss-- is truly outstanding.
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Oh yeah-- one more small thing that also pushed me to the 7900. I print on some thick matte art papers. Vacuum feeding= no risk of trackwheel marks.
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Ok, so where should the 7900 be purchased from? Authorized, least expensive, great service?
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Ok, so where should the 7900 be purchased from? Authorized, least expensive, great service?
I had a long conversation with Kirk from Meridiancyber.com about both the HP and the Epson printers and he 'convinced' me to go for the Epson. Currently they have the best price, the 7900 is $3075 delivered (outside CA), plus two rolls of paper. From the conversation with them I feel comfortable the service would also be great. They are also authorized dealers.
Pradeep
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I had a long conversation with Kirk from Meridiancyber.com about both the HP and the Epson printers and he 'convinced' me to go for the Epson. Currently they have the best price, the 7900 is $3075 delivered (outside CA), plus two rolls of paper. From the conversation with them I feel comfortable the service would also be great. They are also authorized dealers.
Pradeep
I bought my 9900 from Chris at Spectraflow (www.spectraflow.com). He is fantastic! And Julian (see his review of the 7900 at http://www.spectraflow.com/files/pdf/7900%20review%20V1.pdf (http://www.spectraflow.com/files/pdf/7900%20review%20V1.pdf) ) is accessible and also extremely helpful. The price should be similar to that above, but after experiencing the service and support I have received from Spectraflow I can tell you that I wouldn't think of ordering anywhere else.
Paul
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Do you guys want to try and see if we can get even better pricing if we all buy together? I'm ready, willing and able to buy the 7900.
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I bought my 9900 from Chris at Spectraflow (www.spectraflow.com). He is fantastic! And Julian (see his review of the 7900 at http://www.spectraflow.com/files/pdf/7900%20review%20V1.pdf (http://www.spectraflow.com/files/pdf/7900%20review%20V1.pdf) ) is accessible and also extremely helpful. The price should be similar to that above, but after experiencing the service and support I have received from Spectraflow I can tell you that I wouldn't think of ordering anywhere else.
Paul
Paul, you may be correct. However, I did initiate the deal with Kirk and feel obligated to see it through. I have also decided to go the whole hog and get the 9900 - 'she who must be obeyed' agrees it makes the most sense :-)
My feeling is that these are high-end products and judging by the paucity of reviews/forums on the net discussing them, both the users and suppliers of such products are a dedicated and passionate bunch. I would not want to buy a $5000+ printer from a fly-by-night operator or from somebody who does not stand by the service that something like this would invariably require.
I also do not like to nickel and dime a seller for a product, leaves a bad taste. I am going to call Kirk again today and place the order. If I get the sense things are not right, I will be very happy to call Chris or Julian.
Thanks again for all your help everyone.
Pradeep
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I have recently been in the same position. I am just a serious amature, and I consider photography ultimately to be about making prints - big prints! I am so happy to see that I am not alone
I have owned an Epson 4000, and wanted somthing bigger. I read what I could find about the Epson 7900/9900 and HP 3200, and decided on the HP. To my amature eyes the print quality from both printer is excelent. The decisive points for me turned out to be ease of use of the printer. Specifically the spectro and APS of the HP Z 3200 was appealing, since I have had mixed pleasures trying out new paper and messing arround with profiles on the Epson 4000. The spectro on the Epson is as I understand of no use for this. I also like not having to change black inks.
I have plenty of space, so moving the printer to change role paper or feed sheets is no problem. Although I mostly use role paper, I went to my dealer and requested a demo of the paper sheet loading. My experience was that this was much less of a hassel than some threads on the WEB suggest. They suggested feeding the paper directly into the slot where the role paper is feed, using the side as a guide.
Regarding the choice between 24" and 44" models, I went to several galleries with a measure and found that to my eye 24" prints will do for most of my images. They generally do not need to be bigger to make an impact, and the 24" seems to strike a nice ballance between viewing distance, size and detail. Lacking a baronial hall, I also fear the bigger prints will simply be somewhat difficult to display. So, I decided on the 24" model. I also got a nice agreement with my dealer letting me come and do printing on their 44" when I need a bigger print.
I took delivery of the printer yesterday, and boy am I looking forward to the weekend!
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I don't beat anybody out of a buck, but sometimes if the stars are aligned and you can get "group" pricing there is nothing wrong with that. If 3 people go to 3 different stores and each buy at the same price, you don't think that each of those stores would love to have the other 2 customers? I get great pricing at my appliance dealer because I take ALL of my clients there and so each of my clients benefits from my better pricing. I have appliance distributors contacting me all the time because they want my business and I do agree that service is just as important, but today you can get great pricing and great service, we've proven that here.
The other question I have is, if you are considering a 24" printer and you haven't had many 24" prints made over the past few years then why buy a 44" printer? Or is it more like, if I have the capability to print 44" then I will? Obviously you can only put so many large prints in your own home, so then it comes down to, do you sell your prints and if so what kind of market do you have? My decision is 17" or 24" and I can understand some of these guys here have every printer made, but they are running them. I print a lot for my business, but we wont exceed 24", that's a pretty big print. Obviously you need the photo gear to be able to generate that kind of print, who stitches everything together?
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I don't beat anybody out of a buck, but sometimes if the stars are aligned and you can get "group" pricing there is nothing wrong with that. If 3 people go to 3 different stores and each buy at the same price, you don't think that each of those stores would love to have the other 2 customers? I get great pricing at my appliance dealer because I take ALL of my clients there and so each of my clients benefits from my better pricing. I have appliance distributors contacting me all the time because they want my business and I do agree that service is just as important, but today you can get great pricing and great service, we've proven that here.
The other question I have is, if you are considering a 24" printer and you haven't had many 24" prints made over the past few years then why buy a 44" printer? Or is it more like, if I have the capability to print 44" then I will? Obviously you can only put so many large prints in your own home, so then it comes down to, do you sell your prints and if so what kind of market do you have? My decision is 17" or 24" and I can understand some of these guys here have every printer made, but they are running them. I print a lot for my business, but we wont exceed 24", that's a pretty big print. Obviously you need the photo gear to be able to generate that kind of print, who stitches everything together?
I too agonized over the size issue. A friend of mine who is a hobbyist like me has an old Epson 44" and has several large canvas prints on his walls at home, they look awesome. All were taken by him using the older Nikon D200 and you cannot tell they came from a sub-12 MP camera. The other thread on 'buyer's remorse' over inability to print in canvas larger than 20" (the 24 becomes 20 when you stretch the print) also was a factor in my consideration.
Finally, you only live once and I thought, if I am going to print big, why not as big as I can? One never knows, maybe I will sell my stuff one day :-)
Far as the price goes, I agree there is power in collective bargaining, and I will discuss this with Kirk today and let you know if he is willing to consider it.
Pradeep
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I have recently been in the same position. I am just a serious amature, and I consider photography ultimately to be about making prints - big prints! I am so happy to see that I am not alone
I have owned an Epson 4000, and wanted somthing bigger. I read what I could find about the Epson 7900/9900 and HP 3200, and decided on the HP. To my amature eyes the print quality from both printer is excelent. The decisive points for me turned out to be ease of use of the printer. Specifically the spectro and APS of the HP Z 3200 was appealing, since I have had mixed pleasures trying out new paper and messing arround with profiles on the Epson 4000. The spectro on the Epson is as I understand of no use for this. I also like not having to change black inks.
I have plenty of space, so moving the printer to change role paper or feed sheets is no problem. Although I mostly use role paper, I went to my dealer and requested a demo of the paper sheet loading. My experience was that this was much less of a hassel than some threads on the WEB suggest. They suggested feeding the paper directly into the slot where the role paper is feed, using the side as a guide.
Regarding the choice between 24" and 44" models, I went to several galleries with a measure and found that to my eye 24" prints will do for most of my images. They generally do not need to be bigger to make an impact, and the 24" seems to strike a nice ballance between viewing distance, size and detail. Lacking a baronial hall, I also fear the bigger prints will simply be somewhat difficult to display. So, I decided on the 24" model. I also got a nice agreement with my dealer letting me come and do printing on their 44" when I need a bigger print.
I took delivery of the printer yesterday, and boy am I looking forward to the weekend!
Congratulations! I am sure you will enjoy the HP very much.
The decision with the bigger printer was difficult but in the end, I looked at a slightly longer term strategy. I am sure there is no way I could display huge monster prints in my house, since I too lack a baronial hall, but if they could be put up at the local hospital or the offices of my family/friends, hey, that would be something I would be proud of. Who knows, people may even buy them ;-)
Pradeep
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I don't beat anybody out of a buck, but sometimes if the stars are aligned and you can get "group" pricing there is nothing wrong with that. If 3 people go to 3 different stores and each buy at the same price, you don't think that each of those stores would love to have the other 2 customers? I get great pricing at my appliance dealer because I take ALL of my clients there and so each of my clients benefits from my better pricing. I have appliance distributors contacting me all the time because they want my business and I do agree that service is just as important, but today you can get great pricing and great service, we've proven that here.
OK, so I took the plunge and ordered the Epson 9900 today. I asked Kirk if he would give us a 'group discount'. He said if two more people from this forum called him within the next two days to order a 7900 or 9900, he would consider it. At the moment, his prices are the lowest online, being $3075 and $5035 for the two models (after mail-in rebate).
So if anyone is interested, please call Kirk at Merdiancyber.com There is no tax or shipping charge out of CA and it can be delivered from a warehouse close by. My printer should be here in NY in two days.
Pradeep
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I had decided to go with the 7900, but I was wondering about any gloss printing? I don't think even the Epson fans will dispute that the HP does much better on glossy media?
I will certainly dispute that! In fact, in my many hours of research for buying my own printer I never heard that notion mentioned even once. I have an Epson 4880 and print on nothing but glossy paper, and have never seen a trace of ... drat, what's the term? When the surface of the print looks different in different areas, you know. The reason the HP requires the gloss enhancer "ink" is because of shortcomings in the color inks that result in surface irregularities. Epson inks do not have that shortcoming.
The output is of course the most important thing, but the high-end Epsons and HPs are both excellent. Not identical, but the differences are something only a professional nit-picker would be concerned with.
As for the weight, think about it - why are the Epsons heavier? Could it be because some parts are made of metal instead of plastic? Perhaps some parts are thicker/stronger/more durable. Does this make a difference? I have no idea. Still, I think it's wrong-headed to think of more weight as a disadvantage. How often will you move the printer?
In any event, HP or Epson, you'll have a top quality printer and you'll have a blast!
Peter
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Btw, I checked out both Meridian and spectraflow. I ended up buying from Spectra but I had stopped in Meridian a couple times and my impression is that you'd be fine with either place.
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OK, correct me if I'm wrong, I thought that Epson used a GO on their less expensive consumer printers and the results on glossy were fantastic? I thought that HP did the same thing even on the large format like the Z3200? I thought the large format Epsons didn't use a GO and aren't as good on glossy media as the HP? They certainly aren't as good as the Dye printers of yesteryear, are they?
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sorry, the program keeps posting my old message again.
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OK, so I took the plunge and ordered the Epson 9900 today. I asked Kirk if he would give us a 'group discount'. He said if two more people from this forum called him within the next two days to order a 7900 or 9900, he would consider it. At the moment, his prices are the lowest online, being $3075 and $5035 for the two models (after mail-in rebate).
So if anyone is interested, please call Kirk at Merdiancyber.com There is no tax or shipping charge out of CA and it can be delivered from a warehouse close by. My printer should be here in NY in two days.
Pradeep
I'll call him tomorrow
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Error again. My apologies. This is in no way an attempt to keep the thread on top. When I hit refresh on this page, it just posts my old message again for some reason.
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OK, correct me if I'm wrong, I thought that Epson used a GO on their less expensive consumer printers and the results on glossy were fantastic? I thought that HP did the same thing even on the large format like the Z3200? I thought the large format Epsons didn't use a GO and aren't as good on glossy media as the HP? They certainly aren't as good as the Dye printers of yesteryear, are they?
You are right. Epson used the gloss enhancer as well. Piëzoheads are expensive and to keep cost down they are not manufactured beyond the 10 ink channels per printer, preferably less. So the R1800 and R800 got GE + Red + Blue and no extra grey inks, limiting the B&W quality. But excellent gloss. For the same reason there's never a PK + MK head available without some switching process. (edit) The exceptions are the 4000 and the 11880. The price of the piëzoheads compared to the thermo heads is reflected in the designs of the printers and how they keep their heads operating in practice. Epson has to compromise on nozzle quantity and so ink channels.
In time Epson inks improved in many ways including gloss but a gloss enhancer still improves on that. Laying down a gloss layer over the entire print or on all spots of the image can't be done by the colored inks so the match of paper coating and ink is more critical. Dye inks penetrate the gloss coatings better so when finished one gets the original paper gloss again, that's much more difficult with pigment inks. The paper coatings (gelatine, PVA, preferable for dye and micro ceramic for pigment) play a role there too.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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You are right. Epson used the gloss enhancer as well. Piëzoheads are expensive and to keep cost down they are not manufactured beyond the 10 ink channels per printer, preferably less. So the R1800 and R800 got GE + Red + Blue and no extra grey inks, limiting the B&W quality. But excellent gloss. For the same reason there's never a PK + MK head available without some switching process. The exception is the 4000 that stayed in the market for a short period but remains popular among its users.
The current exception being the 11880, which does have dedicated MK and PK channels.
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What's the glossiest media you can use with the 7900 and get great results with it? I realize that the pigment printers can't match the dye printers but how close do they come?
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The current exception being the 11880, which does have dedicated MK and PK channels.
Correct. Second time I did forget that one. Getting old. It has that one blind head that could have done a nice GE job.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html (http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html)
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What's the glossiest media you can use with the 7900 and get great results with it? I realize that the pigment printers can't match the dye printers but how close do they come?
For high gloss, my current preference is Harmon Gloss FB AL, beautiful gloss surface with rich saturated colors, great detail, and deep blacks. Personally I prefer a little texture on my papers, so I don't use it much, but I have profiled and tried it on the 7900, and for scenes with a lot of very small detail I may use it. I like it better than the RC gloss papers.
Not sure how "close" it comes, because I haven't used any dye based printers for a very long time.
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Just spoke with MeridianCyber and waiting for Kirk to call me back. I don't use a lot of high gloss media but obviously in the beginning years of pigment the results on gloss were not so great (putting it nicely) and now it seems that the prints on glossy media from the latest and greatest aren't too far off. I just wonder why Epson doesn't use the GO on their large format printers and then it's capable of anything (My ignorance is showing here since I don't know how good the 7900 is on gloss). Naturally I'll keep my other printers and use them for gloss if the 7900 doesn't prove to be as good as even a 1280.
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Spoke with Kirk, he'll do a little on the price. He did state that the 7900 is very close color gamut to Epson 1280 if not exceeding it and on gloss papers it's very nice, not quite as nice as the dye printers but he said very close, he's sending me some prints overnight and I should have the printer by next Friday.
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Spoke with Kirk, he'll do a little on the price. He did state that the 7900 is very close color gamut to Epson 1280 if not exceeding it and on gloss papers it's very nice, not quite as nice as the dye printers but he said very close, he's sending me some prints overnight and I should have the printer by next Friday.
Great! Group discount does apply. He did say that he would give me a refund too. I am happy nevertheless as the price is good to begin with.
Pradeep
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It was actually only $25.00 and I'm going to tell him to keep it because he's paying to overnight me prints. He knows where he's at on price and I checked a "little" and didn't find it cheaper, though I'm sure you can, but It seems their service is 1st rate. I'll be excited to get it.
I must admit the reason to consider the Z3200, better on glossy papers doesn't seem to be true, I can't get anybody to say that the HP does better on gloss. You'd think with the GE it would have to be, common says a clear coat has to even the pigments out. It seems like the output from the Z3200 and the 7900 are darn close, but I've read enough about the paper handling to know that the Epson is the one for me.
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It was actually only $25.00 and I'm going to tell him to keep it because he's paying to overnight me prints. He knows where he's at on price and I checked a "little" and didn't find it cheaper, though I'm sure you can, but It seems their service is 1st rate. I'll be excited to get it.
I must admit the reason to consider the Z3200, better on glossy papers doesn't seem to be true, I can't get anybody to say that the HP does better on gloss. You'd think with the GE it would have to be, common says a clear coat has to even the pigments out. It seems like the output from the Z3200 and the 7900 are darn close, but I've read enough about the paper handling to know that the Epson is the one for me.
To simplify to the point of one does better than the other wouldn't describe the process or results well.
The HP inks have a large gloss differential in particular in the light grey. Without the gloss enhancer it is pretty much unacceptable on glossy papers. With it though in both eco mode and whole page the results exceed all other large format printers BUT the light grey inks are still under the gloss enhancer. There is an apparent change visible under GE, yet the white and near paper whites are completely corrected, hence an overall improvement on glossy and photo surfaces.
The Epson inksets, only have a small amount of gloss differential more often than not being acceptable for most viewing conditions, yet the Z series surpass it with the application of GE. Overall GE is so well designed that you wouldn't think not to use it and it solves the problem so well that it is a real plus. Only one drawback that is it's fragility is more important than the paper base.
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It seems like the output from the Z3200 and the 7900 are darn close, but I've read enough about the paper handling to know that the Epson is the one for me.
There is an aspect on the automatic paper handling of the x900 models that you should know:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=33141 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=33141)
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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Hi Andrew-
It's funny, when the 7k/9k, then the 76/9600's came out, the shimmy was allegedly planned, so as to mix the ink (!) That's why it was better, so the story went, to get a machine on a stand LOL.
Seriously, tho, I can see lots of reasons to buy the 79/9900's, but extra weight to avoid shimmy isn't high on my list.
Bill
Stability. Ever see one (or the other) shimmy while printing?
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There is an aspect on the automatic paper handling of the x900 models that you should know:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=33141 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=33141)
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
Oouch Is this with all papers or just with particular ones? Will the Epson papers have this problem? I read that thread you link to and that's rather discouraging.
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It's funny, when the 7k/9k, then the 76/9600's came out, the shimmy was allegedly planned, so as to mix the ink (!) That's why it was better, so the story went, to get a machine on a stand LOL.
Seriously, tho, I can see lots of reasons to buy the 79/9900's, but extra weight to avoid shimmy isn't high on my list.
Never heard that shimmying was to keep the ink mixed, sound completely silly to me.
I'm not suggesting the new printer is heavy to avoid shimmy, its heavy because its build like a tank. It is funny to see some of these large printers shimmy however. Doesn't distill absolute confidence.
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Oouch Is this with all papers or just with particular ones? Will the Epson papers have this problem? I read that thread you link to and that's rather discouraging.
I wonder if its due to an less then ideal Media setting which sets the platen gap. One can manually adjust this.
As mentioned, the new E-platen button now replaces the lever in previous models, Epson has always recommended this action after printing.
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Oouch Is this with all papers or just with particular ones? Will the Epson papers have this problem? I read that thread you link to and that's rather discouraging.
It's a non issue with me. I haven't seen it yet and I don't print on any Epson papers. I do release the paper between printing and find the process to reinsert the paper to mindless and effortless. What, 30 secs?
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It's a non issue with me. I haven't seen it yet and I don't print on any Epson papers. I do release the paper between printing and find the process to reinsert the paper to mindless and effortless. What, 30 secs?
It's kind of a PITA for me since the printer wont be in the same room.
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Oouch Is this with all papers or just with particular ones? Will the Epson papers have this problem? I read that thread you link to and that's rather discouraging.
I've seen this with my 11880 if I leave the roll paper loaded without printing for a day or two, but haven't seen it with the 7900. It certainly doesn't happen in 10 or 20 minutes ... it's not like you have to unload the roll right after printing every print. With the 11880 i just advance a few inches and cut it, and use the piece to wrap around rolls when not in use. Takes the same amount of paper as unloading it since I use the optional barcode which must be cut off when the roll is reloaded.
My ipf6100 also left some marks in the paper if I left the roll loaded for a couple of days without printing.
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I've seen this with my 11880 if I leave the roll paper loaded without printing for a day or two, but haven't seen it with the 7900. It certainly doesn't happen in 10 or 20 minutes ... it's not like you have to unload the roll right after printing every print. With the 11880 i just advance a few inches and cut it, and use the piece to wrap around rolls when not in use. Takes the same amount of paper as unloading it since I use the optional barcode which must be cut off when the roll is reloaded.
My ipf6100 also left some marks in the paper if I left the roll loaded for a couple of days without printing.
Wayne,
This is interesting, something I wasn't aware of. So, if you are sitting at your computer and the printer is in the other room you can advance the paper a few inches and cut it off with the auto cutter and then start printing? Do you leave the roll paper in your 7900 all the time? I had intended on using the barcode.
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Wayne,
This is interesting, something I wasn't aware of. So, if you are sitting at your computer and the printer is in the other room you can advance the paper a few inches and cut it off with the auto cutter and then start printing? Do you leave the roll paper in your 7900 all the time? I had intended on using the barcode.
I believe you have to be at the printer to advance/cut. Easy to do, press a couple of buttons. If you need to do this from another room, you certainly could send a "dummy" file a few inches long. I move between sheets and rolls quite a bit, and I do use the barcode to track remaining paper length. However, I have left paper in for more than a day, such as Hahnemuhle FAB and not seen a problem.
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Just spoke with MeridianCyber and waiting for Kirk to call me back. I don't use a lot of high gloss media but obviously in the beginning years of pigment the results on gloss were not so great (putting it nicely) and now it seems that the prints on glossy media from the latest and greatest aren't too far off. I just wonder why Epson doesn't use the GO on their large format printers and then it's capable of anything (My ignorance is showing here since I don't know how good the 7900 is on gloss). Naturally I'll keep my other printers and use them for gloss if the 7900 doesn't prove to be as good as even a 1280.
I believe that you will find the 7900 gamut to be noticeably larger than the 1280 in almost all areas. The pigment printer has come a long way. Also I will say that the HP gloss handling is better than the Epson. There is still some bronzing evident on the X900, it is quite well controlled without the use of a gloss enhancer, but it is still there. The HP inks without the GE have fairly noticeable issues with bronzing and gloss differential, and so the GE is really a solution to a problem imposed by the inks. Two different approaches, two slightly different results. All said though I think the 7900 will serve you well.
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The HP inks without the GE have fairly noticeable issues with bronzing and gloss differential, and so the GE is really a solution to a problem imposed by the inks. Two different approaches, two slightly different results. All said though I think the 7900 will serve you well.
Glossy prints without GE on my Z3200 are terrible but with GE, the prints are indeed a little nicer than glossy prints on my 7900.
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Can I get clarification on what everybody means by "Glossy" in other words the semigloss papers or Epson Semi-Matte do these fall into the same category or are you just talking about the very glossy papers?
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I received the Epson 7900 sample prints from Meridian today and I have to admit I'm very impressed. I had him print on Epson glossy media and though the GD is there it really is slight. I'm going to scan the prints and print them with a 1280 just out of curiosity as well as a Canon I9900. The dye printers definitely have more gloss, but I'm not sure that it matters. You definitely have to look closely at the print to see the GD; it's not readily apparent. I think I'll be very happy with the 7900, I just wished I would have ordered the identical print using the Z3200. I'll probably continue to use the dye printers for the glossy work and the 7900 for everything else.