Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: BJNY on March 12, 2009, 10:37:42 am
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http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...lus-field.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/p65-plus-field.shtml)
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It would seem from Michael's comments, that to truly see the improvements of this back over the P45+ one would have to treat it as though it were an 8x10 camera. Although it is hand holdable, the resolution is so fine that vibrations from the users heart beat or for that matter the mirror slap will be reflected in the image. As MR has noted a 6 second delay in MLU is neccessary. Obviously the technology is so good we now have returned to where we started.
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"Many of the grand names of the medium format camera industry have gone by the wayside during recent years, including Bronica, Contax, and most recently Rolleiflex / Hy6."
I wonder why Michael wrote that. He should know better. Production at F&H is still in full swing.
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I also liked the piece in there called "beyond resolution". I always thought I was crazy seeing more details from FF or MF sensors vs. APS-C even in some web images downsized to 800 or 900 pixels on the long end (0.5 MP )
It seems there is more to sharpness and detail impression than resolution alone, local contrast and actuance play a role as well and apparently more of those are saved in a downsized picture than one might think.
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I also liked the piece in there called "beyond resolution". I always thought I was crazy seeing more details from FF or MF sensors vs. APS-C even in web images downsized to 800 or 900 pixels on the long end (0.5 MP )
It seems there is more to sharpness and detail impression than resolution alone, local contrast and actuance play a role as well and apparently more of those are saved in a downsized picture than one might think.
Micheal, just curious as to how this fits in with your report that respected pros could not reliably tell the difference between prints from the Canon G9 vs. the 40 mp Hassy prints...
(this P65 looks killer, by the way. Anyone know what the upgrade prices from a p30 are?)
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'Full frame'? P65 sensor area is stated at 40.4mm x 55.9mm. The nomimal 645 film gate size is 44mm x 56mm. Seems a little less than full frame.
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http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...lus-field.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/p65-plus-field.shtml)
thanks for posting the review of this long awaited back.
Having only used the p45+ back and seeing the detail and resolution it offered I can only imagine what the p65+ produces..I am sorry to say looking at the images provided in the review really did nothing to back up this assumption and just lead to frustration as I wanted to see the silky smooth 8x10 quality..given the known limitations of the web, I was still hoping for something more than what was shown..I am not being at all critical of michael's landscape work, just the medium in which it is presented..really it looks no better on my screen than some 4/3 shots I have just been looking at..and I know that is not the case!
There has to be a better way to convey the quality of this back in the web environment we now exist in. But for now they just have to be individually tested as michael has done.
Despite my intellectual knowing that 22-39mp is really suffice, as a former 810 shooter, I am naturally drawn to the p65+ and will be very interested in the new camera/platforms phase is developing.
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OMG!
Actually the Mamiya film gate area is exactly 41.5x56 provided in the Mamiya AFDII/III manuals. That should be closer for you. A half mm less per side on the short dimension for the sensor.
Thanks for the clarification on that John.
If I were you I would go after everyone who truncates pi to 3.14. That's the real travesty.
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thanks for posting the review of this long awaited back.
Having only used the p45+ back and seeing the detail and resolution it offered I can only imagine what the p65+ produces..I am sorry to say looking at the images provided in the review really did nothing to back up this assumption and just lead to frustration as I wanted to see the silky smooth 8x10 quality..given the known limitations of the web, I was still hoping for something more than what was shown..I am not being at all critical of michael's landscape work, just the medium in which it is presented..really it looks no better on my screen than some 4/3 shots I have just been looking at..and I know that is not the case!
There has to be a better way to convey the quality of this back in the web environment we now exist in. But for now they just have to be individually tested as michael has done.
Despite my intellectual knowing that 22-39mp is really suffice, as a former 810 shooter, I am naturally drawn to the p65+ and will be very interested in the new camera/platforms phase is developing.
1. Download the P65+ 100% JPG we have on the front page of our website (captureintegration.com (http://www.captureintegration.com/))
2. Make a big print
3. Remember to keep breathing :-P
Or better yet, don't take our word for it, schedule a demo and you can shoot the 65+ on the platform of your choice and do all your own processing (with some pointers from our accumulated experience).
__________________
Doug Peterson (Email Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
Head of Technical Services
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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i also think its not fair to tell in public that Rolleiflex/ Hy6 is dead. franke + heideke is insolvent, we discussed enough about this and the possible consequences.
why name the Hy6 and the Afi not? why fix a rumor in so prominent space?
this reviews are read by so many people that it does not look fair to me to spread such info before it is reality, moreso in a situation where it looks
uncertain or even unlikely if the HY/AFI system will die.
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The Mamiya body and lenses is based on a 645 format. The Rollie Hy6 and lenses is based on a square medium format. Should there ever be a square 56mm x 56mm sensor, your choices will be either vintage Hasselblad, Mamiya RZ, or Rollie. There have been rumors of a Nikon square format camera, perhaps they are entering the 56mm x 56mm market? I wouldn't count the Hy6 out just yet.
What's next? A full 6x7 sensor? Man I miss that RZ ground glass and the way those lenses manually focused. Almost ethereal.
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The Mamiya body and lenses is based on a 645 format. The Rollie Hy6 and lenses is based on a square medium format. Should there ever be a square 56mm x 56mm sensor, your choices will be either vintage Hasselblad cameras or Rollie. There have been rumors of a Nikon square format camera, perhaps they are entering the 56mm x 56mm market? I wouldn't count the Hy6 out just yet.
The Mamiya RZ is still very much a living system. In fact you can take a Phase One back off of a Mamiya/Phase 645 and put it right on an RZ Pro IID. Granted it is 6x7 rather than 6x6 but cropping 0.5 cm from the left and right to accommodate a square sensor would be simple.
Edit: Ha, you edited your post to reflect the RZ option after I was already mid-post.
__________________
Doug Peterson (Email Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
Head of Technical Services
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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'Full frame'? P65 sensor area is stated at 40.4mm x 55.9mm. The nomimal 645 film gate size is 44mm x 56mm. Seems a little less than full frame.
If we are splitting hairs, 645 film format is 41.5x56mm, as in the H2F specs at http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/h-system/h2f.aspx (http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/h-system/h2f.aspx)
So the P65 "crop" is 1.1mm vertically, 0.1mm horizontally. Slide mounts consume as much or more of the image as this, so to declare this to be not 100.000% full frame would indeed be splitting hairs.
P. S. Never mind, I missed the other reply.
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I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian here:
First, regarding being able to tell the difference between a high MP back and a lower MP cam, even in small web prints. Sorry, but I just don't buy it. It doesn't jive with my own experience, and as Lisa_r points out, we've also heard comments from Michael that experts couldn't tell the difference between Canon G10 images and P45+ images at a certain print size. If both files are properly processed, you won't be able to tell the difference in smaller prints, assuming you use good glass and good technique with both. I think what we're really seeing here is psychology. People see what they expect to see or want to see. And when you pay $40K+ for something, you expect and want to see a lot.
Second, I find it tremendously disappointing that at this stage of the game, Phase is still just jacking up MP without really fixing some of the underlying problems with their design. OK, maybe they've improved noise somewhat (tho I'm still withholding judgement on that, since I think that's also a candidate for psychology at work). But they still have that appalling LCD screen. They don't have any real live view (yes, they have it with a laptop attached, but that still sucks). For something with this kind of resolution, used out in the field, I'd want to focus via live view at maximum magnification, rather than relying on AF. Having to use a laptop for that on landscape shoots just isn't practical. The back still sucks power from the batteries. Only 100 to 200 shots to a 2500 millliamp hour battery is just terrible. For $40K+, these shortcomings shouldn't be present.
I understand Michael's enthusiasm, but such unbridaled enthusiasm is common among people who've just bought a hugely expensive product and expect the best from it. This is human nature. Given that this is for all practical purposes just a MP bump, I'm underwhelmed.
P.S. Of course, this is just my opinion. And you know what they say about opinions :-)
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Second, I find it tremendously disappointing that at this stage of the game, Phase is still just jacking up MP without really fixing some of the underlying problems with their design. OK, maybe they've improved noise somewhat (tho I'm still withholding judgement on that, since I think that's also a candidate for psychology at work). But they still have that appalling LCD screen. They don't have any real live view (yes, they have it with a laptop attached, but that still sucks). For something with this kind of resolution, used out in the field, I'd want to focus via live view at maximum magnification, rather than relying on AF. Having to use a laptop for that on landscape shoots just isn't practical. The back still sucks power from the batteries. Only 100 to 200 shots to a 2500 millliamp hour battery is just terrible. For $40K+, these shortcomings shouldn't be present.
We'd all love the best of every single attribute from both dSLRs and digital backs in one package, but...
- nobody has an on-camera Live View digital back and it doesn't seem likely in the foreseeable future
- you want a bigger screen and longer battery life which are opposites
__________________
Doug Peterson (Email Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
Head of Technical Services
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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I'm going to be a bit of a contrarian here:
Given that this is for all practical purposes just a MP bump, I'm underwhelmed.
Mort:
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here.
The P65+ is a 60MP digital back with usable 800 ISO that also shoots 60 frames a minute, that gives you full viewfinder/lens coverage at 645 format (the first and only one on the market).
There is substantial interest in the P65+ from a sensor size and resolution standpoint, and no, we are not backordered because we're selling them by the thousands, but we are getting a very good quantity of orders, especially considering the economic picture we're in and the price.
Full stop. In addition, you also get a product that can conversely capture 15MP at - from what I am hearing - very clean 1600/3200 ISO at 70 - 80 frames per minute. And all this with no loss of viewfinder/lens coverage, the same exact coverage. All in one product.
I thought photographers desired flexible tools for variable situations?
Now, I don't want to get too close to the Koolaid, and I have yet to see these high ISO images, yet to perform speed tests at 15MP, but on paper, I see it as a hell of a product with a high price tag, but one that is extremely versatile and should last any photographer years beyond what they have been accustomed to in terms of usefull life.
Yes, I agree our LCD is long overdue for an overhaul.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Yes, I am waiting for H1/A75 Guy to insult him for killing the Hy6/AFi ... and because he sold his Hasselblad ... how he dares ...
i also think its not fair to tell in public that Rolleiflex/ Hy6 is dead. franke + heideke is insolvent, we discussed enough about this and the possible consequences.
why name the Hy6 and the Afi not? why fix a rumor in so prominent space?
this reviews are read by so many people that it does not look fair to me to spread such info before it is reality, moreso in a situation where it looks
uncertain or even unlikely if the HY/AFI system will die.
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We'd all love the best of every single attribute from both dSLRs and digital backs in one package, but...
- nobody has an on-camera Live View digital back and it doesn't seem likely in the foreseeable future
- you want a bigger screen and longer battery life which are opposites
Both Canon and Nikon have superb LCDs, excellent LV implementations, and amazing battery life. That $40K+ backs can't do the same, to me at least, is just not right.
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I will never understand the obsession with bigger better LCD on digital backs. I can't' imagine anything easier and more reliable to shoot than a Phase back with the 4 button menu and the LCD that makes longer battery life possible. All I ever go by is the histogram and highlight warnings. Only change I wish Phase would make is to put the histogram and highlight warning on the same screen. That's one of their big mistakes and know Michael has been requesting this for a long time and Phase has never given us this option. Phase are you listening?....maybe in a firmware update sometime?? Oh, I've even heard something about Phase thinking about touch screens.....uh duhhhh....have they ever tried an iPhone? The screen gets terribly grimy with lots of smears......I think that would be another mistake..... they've got a top notch product design and I hope they stick with it.....Thanks, Eleanor
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Both Canon and Nikon have superb LCDs, excellent LV implementations, and amazing battery life. That $40K+ backs can't do the same, to me at least, is just not right.
I understand, it seems like - for the money - it should offer that. But it is the nature of the sensor technology that we utilize which does present limitations while also offering advantages that Canon/Nikon do not. If amazing LCD, battery life, and in-camera Live Video are that important to you, then this product may not be an option for you. And I don't say that to mean in any way those elements are not important, they certainly are. But we don't offer everything Canon/Nikon offers, nor do they offer everything that medium format offers.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Given that this is for all practical purposes just a MP bump ...
How do you conclude that? Apart from the larger sensor size eliminating the often complained about "sensor crop", Dalsa has reported design improvements that reduce noise, improve dynamic range, and increase maximum usable ISO speed, and Michael's review supports those claims to some extent.
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The P65+ is a 60MP digital back with usable 800 ISO that also shoots 60 frames a minute, that gives you full viewfinder/lens coverage at 645 format (the first and only one on the market). (...)
In addition, you also get a product that can conversely capture 15MP at - from what I am hearing - very clean 1600/3200 ISO at 70 - 80 frames per minute. And all this with no loss of viewfinder/lens coverage, the same exact coverage. All in one product.
And the "upgradable chip", no? Or is this no longer a feature of "Sensor +"?
I will never understand the obsession with bigger better LCD on digital backs.
Read the valid reasons of those users who ask for it.All I ever go by is the histogram and highlight warnings
The same to me with the Contax (split image screen mounted). The back mounted on a tech camera with medicore groundglass I sometimes wish to have more resolution to judge about focus. Especially at focus just in front of infinity. This applies to the non plus as to the plus back LCDs as well from my point of view.Only change I wish Phase would make is to put the histogram and highlight warning on the same screen. That's one of their big mistakes and know Michael has been requesting this for a long time and Phase has never given us this option. Phase are you listening?
hey come on... this is peanuts.touch screens.....uh duhhhh....have they ever tried an iPhone? The screen gets terribly grimy with lots of smears...
why do you care if you just look at the histogram :-)
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I thought that I made it clear that the P65+ is about much more than higher resolution. Much much more. Better DR, smoother tonalities, better high ISO and so forth.
Either my writing skills are deteriorating or some folks reading skills need remediation.
Michael
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1. Download the P65+ 100% JPG we have on the front page of our website (captureintegration.com (http://www.captureintegration.com/))
2. Make a big print
3. Remember to keep breathing :-P
Or better yet, don't take our word for it, schedule a demo and you can shoot the 65+ on the platform of your choice and do all your own processing (with some pointers from our accumulated experience).
__________________
Doug Peterson (Email Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
Head of Technical Services
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
Doug, I do not understand why Phase, Hasselblad, Leaf and Sinar do not hire first class landscape(fashion, product, etc.) photographers to go out and shoot a bunch of raw files with their backs and put them up on their servers(with the raw conversion software) for download so prospective customers can work with them and see for themselves the IQ advantages of these backs compared to what DSLRs can provide. If you guys do believe in your products, as I think you do, the manufacturers are doing a disservice to themselves by not making it easy for people to get at the best samples they can produce. I have seen Hasselblad's raw samples, and I know first hand that these are not the best examples of what their backs are capable of. Take a look at Victor Magazine for more proof of that.
BTW, Michael Reichman states in his review that he does his initial RAW processing in C1 and then sends the file as a TIFF to Lightroom for "further raw processing". Am I missing something?
Also, are the lens corrections that are applied to raw files in C1 from files shot with Mamiya lenses the same as the lens corrections in the Hasselblad software? Do the corrections carry over into a DNG and get applied to a file that is opened for raw processing in ACR or Lightroom?
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Also, are the lens corrections that are applied to raw files in C1 from files shot with Mamiya lenses the same as the lens corrections in the Hasselblad software? Do the corrections carry over into a DNG and get applied to a file that is opened for raw processing in ACR or Lightroom?
The lens corrections that we use on the H3D are unique to us. The Mamiya AFD can not transmit all the necessary data to the raw file (most importantly subject to lens distance) to enable completely automated corrections like we have in Phocus.
[attachment=12091:Picture_1.png]
David
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I will never understand the obsession with bigger better LCD on digital backs. I can't' imagine anything easier and more reliable to shoot than a Phase back with the 4 button menu and the LCD that makes longer battery life possible. All I ever go by is the histogram and highlight warnings. Only change I wish Phase would make is to put the histogram and highlight warning on the same screen. That's one of their big mistakes and know Michael has been requesting this for a long time and Phase has never given us this option. Phase are you listening?....maybe in a firmware update sometime?? Oh, I've even heard something about Phase thinking about touch screens.....uh duhhhh....have they ever tried an iPhone? The screen gets terribly grimy with lots of smears......I think that would be another mistake..... they've got a top notch product design and I hope they stick with it.....Thanks, Eleanor
I agree with much of this in Eleanor's post. NO touch screen please! The Phase One button layout works great for field work. And like Eleanor, I mostly use the LCD for histogram and clipped highlight warnings, though I do occasionally use it for focus confirmation and it would be nice for improvement for that. The screen not a priority for me, though it comes up very often for the fashion folks, and that's understandable.
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Doug, I do not understand why Phase, Hasselblad, Leaf and Sinar do not hire first class landscape(fashion, product, etc.) photographers to go out and shoot a bunch of raw files with their backs and put them up on their servers(with the raw conversion software) for download so prospective customers can work with them and see for themselves the IQ advantages of these backs compared to what DSLRs can provide. If you guys do believe in your products, as I think you do, the manufacturers are doing a disservice to themselves by not making it easy for people to get at the best samples they can produce.
If you're in talks with a dealer for a purchase or lease you will have no problem with receiving raw files for examination. Much of the resistance to broadly distributing raw files is that the demographic looking for raw files are generally just beginning their search for information about MFD and lack either the programs, the expertise, or the experience to properly develop a raw file to it's fullest potential. It's not rocket science, but if you take the average photographer who only has experience with dSLRs and give them a raw file they will likely not get nearly the potential out of the file that we can; the difference can be drastic.
Another reason is because the internet is a scary place and as most reasonable board members have noticed, is often a place where nits are picked with surprising gusto. Finally, who is going to share their raws? In beauty/fashion/portrait we all know that even the best photographers in the world use drastic amounts of retouching for skin, blemishes, and reshaping (almost without exception), so seeing their raw will take away much of their mystique. For landscape the amount of retouching and effects can often be surprising and for marketing purposes generally strongly denied (e.g. walk into a Peter Lik gallery and ask if the images are retouched; they will bite your head off with adamant denials). Posting 100% JPGs let alone raw files on the internet is anathema to nearly every landscape photographer I know.
Despite all of these obstacles we have a catalog of customer images as well as our own images (we are shooters too you know; see portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com/infrared.php)) which we are happy to share in controlled situations in which we can respect the rights and wishes of the photographer.
In fact we have several raw files, including one from the P65+ on our website Test Section (http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/phase-one/).
Hopefully you appreciate the candor here since much of this is usually unsaid.
Also, are the lens corrections that are applied to raw files in C1 from files shot with Mamiya lenses the same as the lens corrections in the Hasselblad software? Do the corrections carry over into a DNG and get applied to a file that is opened for raw processing in ACR or Lightroom?
The type of corrections (sharpness, distortion, light fall-off, chromatic aberration) are similar to Hasselblad's corrections. In fact we provide corrections for Hasselblad H, Contax, and Mamiya lenses in Capture One. These corrections do not transfer to a DNG. Phase is committed to openness and offers DNG output as well as welcoming programs like Lightroom to open the files directly. However, I cannot state strongly enough just what a fabulous job Capture One 4 does with Phase One raw files. Especially among those who are quality-minded I have had few people take our online training (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/11/24/capture-one-web-seminar/) who didn't then switch to processing most or all of their shots in C1.
__________________
Doug Peterson (Email Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
Head of Technical Services
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Just to add I shot this P65 plus on two occasions in the pre-production stages against the P25 and P45 Pluses. The 65 certainly was a step up in many ways. Frankly If I had the money I would get one. It was that good and if you need the horsepower it is certainly there. It has better DR and a great range of tones. Color in the pre production units was off but I am sure that is corrected with production units.
Nice review Michael
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The lens corrections that we use on the H3D are unique to us. The Mamiya AFD can not transmit all the necessary data to the raw file (most importantly subject to lens distance) to enable completely automated corrections like we have in Phocus.
[attachment=12091:Picture_1.png]
David
Credit is due to Hasselblad on the level of data transmitted to the body from the lens. In theory these things have an impact on what math to apply to correct the lens issues. However, in practical use I have yet to see a difference between the corrections applied to HC lenses in Capture One (to a raw captured by a P1 back on a H body) and Phocus (to a raw captured by an H3D).
If in fact they were confident that they, and only they with their additionally transmitted information could properly undistorted, unvignette, and sharpen the corners of their HC28mm lens then it's hard to understand why they locked out other companies from using it.
Doug
__________________
Doug Peterson (Email Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
Head of Technical Services
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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If in fact they were confident that they, and only they with their additionally transmitted information could properly undistorted, unvignette, and sharpen the corners of their HC28mm
There is no corner sharpening on the HCD28. It is sharp by default.
This is only necessary on the Mamiya 28mm lens.
I absolutely disagree that there is no difference between lens corrections and we have looked at this extremely carefully in the optical lab in Sweden.
David
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this reviews are read by so many people that it does not look fair to me to spread such info before it is reality, moreso in a situation where it looks
uncertain or even unlikely if the HY/AFI system will die.
Not just unfair, it seems like a case of libel.
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I thought that I made it clear that the P65+ is about much more than higher resolution. Much much more. Better DR, smoother tonalities, better high ISO and so forth.
You did. I guess I just have a different opinion (and like I said, we all know what they say about opinions). I'll grant that the better high ISO performance is another big step forward, but often times opinions on noise are in the eyes of the beholder, so I'd prefer to see some rigorous numerical measurements on noise to determine what the improvements really are (sorry, but I've just heard way too many claims of improved noise on every new camera and back that comes out, so I remain a little jaded on that issue). As for smoother tonality, better DR, etc, I already consider the P45+ super in all of those regards, so I can't imagine any improvements being more than slightly incremental in nature. As nice as all those improvements are, the shortcomings are what get my attention - the LCD, lack of real live view, and battery life. Obviously people weight feature sets differently, and what's important for me is less important to someone else. But that's why I said this was just my opinion.
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NO touch screen please! The Phase One button layout works great for field work.
100% agreed.
BTW: does such a touch screen reacts when a fly lands on it or when you touch it with your nose? :-)
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There is no corner sharpening on the HCD28. It is sharp by default.
This is only necessary on the Mamiya 28mm lens.
I absolutely disagree that there is no difference between lens corrections and we have looked at this extremely carefully in the optical lab in Sweden.
David
David I have a question about the new 35-90 lens; Does it work with H1/ H2 bodies with/ without a Hasselblad back? I'm asking because it doesn't say yes/ no in your literature, unlike with the HC28, and we have a few customers asking about the zoom.
thanks
Yair
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David I have a question about the new 35-90 lens; Does it work with H1/ H2 bodies with/ without a Hasselblad back? I'm asking because it doesn't say yes/ no in your literature, unlike with the HC28, and we have a few customers asking about the zoom.
thanks
Yair
Hi Yair,
As it is designated a D lens then it is only working with H2D/H3D or a CF generation back on an H2F body.
David
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Operationally, the Leaf touch screen works great. Not sure why so much poo poo-ing on that.
it was a real question - never used these screens. The LCD of my back is mostly filthy and I wonder if I could get used to a touch screen. Probably yes, if I had to.
Nevertheless I don't like the iPhone.... the blackberrys, palms, mouses, pens. I've thrown them all away.
I like dials, knobs, screws, glass, metal, wood...
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I am a P45+ owner, and I have learned to evaluate Phase back ability on a case by case and back to back basis. I think we'll start believing the claims when the users confirm them. The 60 images/minute seems unattainable on Phasiya, if Michael is correct.
Edmund
Mort:
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here.
The P65+ is a 60MP digital back with usable 800 ISO that also shoots 60 frames a minute, that gives you full viewfinder/lens coverage at 645 format (the first and only one on the market).
There is substantial interest in the P65+ from a sensor size and resolution standpoint, and no, we are not backordered because we're selling them by the thousands, but we are getting a very good quantity of orders, especially considering the economic picture we're in and the price.
Full stop. In addition, you also get a product that can conversely capture 15MP at - from what I am hearing - very clean 1600/3200 ISO at 70 - 80 frames per minute. And all this with no loss of viewfinder/lens coverage, the same exact coverage. All in one product.
I thought photographers desired flexible tools for variable situations?
Now, I don't want to get too close to the Koolaid, and I have yet to see these high ISO images, yet to perform speed tests at 15MP, but on paper, I see it as a hell of a product with a high price tag, but one that is extremely versatile and should last any photographer years beyond what they have been accustomed to in terms of usefull life.
Yes, I agree our LCD is long overdue for an overhaul.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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you're half way there to the iphone.
okay!
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Hasselblad back have a fan for coolness. Believe the Phase back relies on low power and NO moving parts to keep the chip cool and extend battery life. the Phase back is practically indestructible (unless it falls in salt water of something like that). I agree, we can't have everything but I would sure hate to see Phase go to a fan even if that would mean having a better LCD. As I said, correct me if I''m wrong but I prefer no moving part back. Eleanor
When I hear, you can't have a better screen because of power consumption issues then why is Hassy's screen so much better, why has Sinar put such a better screen on their new Esprit65 series? Our clients don't want us to complain, "well we won't be able to do a shot like that". Why do photographers want to here DB manufacturers do the same, "we can't put a better screen on it because..."
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I will never understand the obsession with bigger better LCD on digital backs. I can't' imagine anything easier and more reliable to shoot than a Phase back with the 4 button menu and the LCD that makes longer battery life possible. All I ever go by is the histogram and highlight warnings.
Agreed. I rarely chimp with my p45. A quick glance sometimes to confirm cropping, sometimes zooming in to confirm focus, but mainly just checking histogram to confirm my exposure.
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http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...lus-field.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/p65-plus-field.shtml)
On the lack of sharpness with long lenses. I am not sure whether the problem Michael was facing is the same or not, but I used to have the problem with my Mamiya ZD (with the 300 f4.5 APO) and in the end I understood that the problem was most probably the result of too big an amount of play between the lens and body at mount level.
The reason why it took a long time to find out was that the amount of play was depending on the temperature... because of a subtle differential dilatation between body and mount... the colder the more obvious the problem was. At -10C it was next to impossible to get a correct connection between lens and body and many images were unsharp.
The Mamiya folks in Tokyo never admited the problem was real, but their insistant questioning on the type/age of the lens made me feel that they were aware of such problem when mounting older lenses on more recent bodies. I have no proof of this though.
This problem was one of the reasons I decide to move away from the Mamiya system.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Hasselblad back have a fan for coolness. Believe the Phase back relies on low power and NO moving parts to keep the chip cool and extend battery life. the Phase back is practically indestructible (unless it falls in salt water of something like that). I agree, we can't have everything but I would sure hate to see Phase go to a fan even if that would mean having a better LCD. As I said, correct me if I''m wrong but I prefer no moving part back. Eleanor
Certainly! Didn't I already answer this today?
We have not used a fan for well over a year now.
As I said on another thread elsewhere today, ALL manufacturers of any electrical equipment are constantly juggling different elements of the system with power requirements. Phase does nothing special compared to anyone else in this respect. Its especially important in our case as we use a relatively small battery to power the whole system for convenience. Incidentally a cooling fan uses so little wattage it has little or no effect on battery life. The advantage to us is that the CCD runs a few degrees cooler on the heat-sink based system.
Battery life is an R&D project in itself (Just ask Apple!), We the consumer are very demanding. We want big colorful LCD's, fast processing, multi tasking... and so on.
Remember our old Nokia phones that would last for four days on one charge? Now I am down to an iPhone which lasts about a day. Oh well!
David
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As I said on another thread elsewhere today, ALL manufacturers of any electrical equipment are constantly juggling different elements of the system with power requirements. Phase does nothing special compared to anyone else in this respect.
It's that "nothing special" we do which helps our backs expose cleanly for 1 hour using the same senor with which Hassy couldn't exceed 30 seconds.
__________________
Doug Peterson (Email Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
Head of Technical Services
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Agreed. I rarely chimp with my p45. A quick glance sometimes to confirm cropping, sometimes zooming in to confirm focus, but mainly just checking histogram to confirm my exposure.
I agree that the existing screen if perfectly fine for histogram checking. But the reason I'd like a better screen is for critical focus adjustment in live view. I've become spoiled by my D3, where I can zoom live view up to 400%, and then manually fine tune focus to the gnats @ss. I'd love to have that capability on my P45+. I'm not just talking about checking focus, I'm talking about manual focus in real time and seeing the results on-screen in real time. Until I tried it on my D3, I never realized how incredibly useful this is.
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They don't have any real live view (yes, they have it with a laptop attached, but that still sucks). For something with this kind of resolution, used out in the field, I'd want to focus via live view at maximum magnification, rather than relying on AF.
Is the lack of in back live view on the P65+ a confirmed fact? The need is so screamingly obvious that I had taken it for granted that it would be available.
Considering the fact that a view camera with digitar like lenses is IMHO the only valuable usage of a high res back, if there indeed isn't a real live view in camera, then I have just lost interest in the P65+. Those things are IMHO impossible to focus critically without live view... and the difference between critical and sloppy focus on the P65+ is close to the difference between a P65+ and a P45+.
Heck, even my D3x is impossible to focus critically in many cases without live view...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi,
I am a new member and have some questions about the p65. I have a Contax 645 with every lens, and am going to the Phase One event at Capture Integration in Miami next week. I am a long time film shooter, but it looks like digital has reached the quality of film, and is moving away from the planned obsolence business model towards quality that won't need upgrades every two years for mucho $$$$!
I see that the p65+ still only has about a one minute max. exposure. I was hoping that this would have changed in the upgraded production units. I do landscape/cityscape work and, really, long exposure is more important to me than a 15 mp camera that does ISO 3200 at 1.5 frames/sec. I don't see how many shooters will use this, as we can get higher resolution, low noise at these speeds, and 7-8 fps from DSLRs. They are a better tool for the type of shooting that would require high ISO and fast shooting.
For landscape under moonlit skies, the northern lights, star trails, light painting, cityscapes with blurred light trails, waterscapes with the ethereal foggy look that really long exposures give -- I thing more shooters using MFDB would be much more interested in the ability to capture these shots than in low resolution high ISO images.
I am really amazed to see the Phase One and Hasselblad reps on this site with friendly competition and really useful information.
Can the Phase One folks give me some input on this? Will the p65 finally get long exposure capability? Otherwise I will have to get a used/demo p45+ and wait to upgrade later which may be more than I can afford.
Oh, by the way, I am one of those that would like a better LCD so I can magnify and confirm focus and depth of field, in the field and without tethering, just my two cents. However, can the backs output to one of the high quality 5'-7" LCD monitors used for pro video? That might be even better.
Thanks!
Guy
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All medium format backs currently use CCDs, which are not suitable technically for Live View.
Michael
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It's that "nothing special" we do which helps our backs expose cleanly for 1 hour using the same senor with which Hassy couldn't exceed 30 seconds.
Hi Doug
In my opinion you do the (excellent) brand that you represent no favours by constantly looking for opportunities to snipe at your competition.
No one ever sold a Porsche by telling a customer how crap Ferraris are.
Nick-T
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Glad I said "correct me" on the fan issue, because on this, I was not sure. Honestly I love Hasselblad....had the V system, now the H2 system and many fantastic H lenses. Sure wish Hasselblad would re think their marketing decision to close their system to other back manufacturers. I have had to keep an extra H2 body boxed, brand new, hoarded in my closet should something awful happen to my current H2 body that could not be fixed. Just wishing....... Eleanor
Certainly! Didn't I already answer this today?
We have not used a fan for well over a year now.
As I said on another thread elsewhere today, ALL manufacturers of any electrical equipment are constantly juggling different elements of the system with power requirements. Phase does nothing special compared to anyone else in this respect. Its especially important in our case as we use a relatively small battery to power the whole system for convenience. Incidentally a cooling fan uses so little wattage it has little or no effect on battery life. The advantage to us is that the CCD runs a few degrees cooler on the heat-sink based system.
Battery life is an R&D project in itself (Just ask Apple!), We the consumer are very demanding. We want big colorful LCD's, fast processing, multi tasking... and so on.
Remember our old Nokia phones that would last for four days on one charge? Now I am down to an iPhone which lasts about a day. Oh well!
David
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All medium format backs currently use CCDs, which are not suitable technically for Live View.
Hmmmmm. I thought you could connect a laptop up to a Phase One back and get real interactive live view that way. I've heard of people using that approach to adjust focus in real time. If you can do it via a laptop, there should be no technical reason why it can't be done via the LCD (other than heat, obviously). Maybe I've misunderstood. You'd need to repeatedly read out the sensor, but why would CCDs specifically preclude repeatedly reading out the image.
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I am really amazed to see the Phase One and Hasselblad reps on this site with friendly competition and really useful information.
Hi Doug
In my opinion you do the (excellent) brand that you represent no favours by constantly looking for opportunities to snipe at your competition.
No one ever sold a Porsche by telling a customer how crap Ferraris are.
Nick-T
re: Nick Yikes, your comments prompted me to pull up my recent posts list and you're right! I have been a bit snippy of late. I've had somewhat of a bad week personally (nothing too bad).
So to be completely clear Hasselblad makes an absolutely fabulous product, as does Leaf. In the high-end space there are few bad choices, mostly just choices and compromises between priorities. David is an absolutely stand up fellow and I thoroughly enjoy whenever we disagree. Indeed the comparison to Porsche and Ferraris is right on.
It is only David's good nature and ability which allows the sort of back and forth he and I have, and which, of late I have allowed to carry me a bit far :-). My apologies to David and the board in general for being snippy this week.
No apologies for the video though: that was just plain funny :-).
__________________
Doug Peterson (Email Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
Head of Technical Services
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
-
Glad I said "correct me" on the fan issue, because on this, I was not sure. Honestly I love Hasselblad....had the V system, now the H2 system and many fantastic H lenses. Sure wish Hasselblad would re think their marketing decision to close their system to other back manufacturers. I have had to keep an extra H2 body boxed, brand new, hoarded in my closet should something awful happen to my current H2 body that could not be fixed. Just wishing....... Eleanor
Eleanor,
If you're H2 could not be fixed we would not abandon you at all under our Customer Care Plan.
Consider taking one out for your H2's...
http://www.hasselblad.com/service--support...-main-menu.aspx (http://www.hasselblad.com/service--support/care-plan-main-menu.aspx)
Every 100,000 exposures you get a 50% discount on a total refurbishment of the camera (495 Euros)
I won't go into too much detail here on this thread as it is unfair to the original post. Have a chat with your Hasselblad dealer for all details.
David
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Is the lack of in back live view on the P65+ a confirmed fact? The need is so screamingly obvious that I had taken it for granted that it would be available.
Well, it's certainly not available in my P45+. And I haven't seen any of the P65+ marketing material call it out. If they had added it to the P65+, I'd think they would be trumpeting it.
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We have not used a fan for well over a year now.
As I said on another thread elsewhere today, ALL manufacturers of any electrical equipment are constantly juggling different elements of the system with power requirements. Phase does nothing special compared to anyone else in this respect. Its especially important in our case as we use a relatively small battery to power the whole system for convenience. Incidentally a cooling fan uses so little wattage it has little or no effect on battery life. The advantage to us is that the CCD runs a few degrees cooler on the heat-sink based system.
Battery life is an R&D project in itself (Just ask Apple!), We the consumer are very demanding. We want big colorful LCD's, fast processing, multi tasking... and so on.
I love my H3-50 waiting for the 60...
p65+ $40,000.00
H3-50 $28,000.00 plus camera/lens. Plus, the most important of all,customer service.
My next will be H3-60 then I will demand, solar power/moon power.
voice(spanish) command to shot, so hand free
in what ever else I will think before I get something else.
Some people keep asking what is the cost, of exchange from one back to p65+.
If you change your digital back, in the pass, you can't do it now.. That is what they say before.
So sale your p45+ and go for new one, maybe H3-50? $28,000.00 OR $ 40,000.00 plus the cost of the camera/lens. auch
I do not think Michael is biased, he had a lot of hasselblad cameras/lens
if hasselblad want him to review their product, send a camera, simple is that.
I love hasseblad customer service, to bad the I dind't know Chris Lawery Clawery before phase customer service went so bad.
BlasR
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I see that the p65+ still only has about a one minute max. exposure. I was hoping that this would have changed in the upgraded production units. I do landscape/cityscape work and, really, long exposure is more important to me than a 15 mp camera that does ISO 3200 at 1.5 frames/sec. I don't see how many shooters will use this, as we can get higher resolution, low noise at these speeds, and 7-8 fps from DSLRs. They are a better tool for the type of shooting that would require high ISO and fast shooting.
For landscape under moonlit skies, the northern lights, star trails, light painting, cityscapes with blurred light trails, waterscapes with the ethereal foggy look that really long exposures give -- I thing more shooters using MFDB would be much more interested in the ability to capture these shots than in low resolution high ISO images.
[...]
Can the Phase One folks give me some input on this? Will the p65 finally get long exposure capability? Otherwise I will have to get a used/demo p45+ and wait to upgrade later which may be more than I can afford.
Thanks!
Guy
The P45+ is your best bet for long exposures, and 39 megapixels is still a LOT of resolution, even if its not the *highest* anymore.
The P65+ will likely get slightly better long exposures than what it can do today. But it will never come close to the long exposure abilities of the P45+ and in general you should avoid buying based on promised future improvements.
Oh, by the way, I am one of those that would like a better LCD so I can magnify and confirm focus and depth of field, in the field and without tethering, just my two cents. However, can the backs output to one of the high quality 5'-7" LCD monitors used for pro video? That might be even better.
It's a great idea and I think it would be a godsend but it is neither currently possible, nor likely in the near future.
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thanks David. Last summer in alaska my H2 fell on the ground and ruined the shutter button/grip mechanism. I sent it in to New jersey and they sent it on to Sweden where they followed my wishes to "make it as good as new" (replacing a bunch of stuff). It is is excellent working condition now so I didn't have to get my "hoarded new H2" out of the closet! also had a very recent in warranty repair on my HC 100 2.2 lens (my sharpest of my lenses) and it also works perfectly. Great service. Eleanor
Eleanor,
If you're H2 could not be fixed we would not abandon you at all under our Customer Care Plan.
Consider taking one out for your H2's...
http://www.hasselblad.com/service--support...-main-menu.aspx (http://www.hasselblad.com/service--support/care-plan-main-menu.aspx)
Every 100,000 exposures you get a 50% discount on a total refurbishment of the camera (495 Euros)
I won't go into too much detail here on this thread as it is unfair to the original post. Have a chat with your Hasselblad dealer for all details.
David
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Mort:
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here.
Well, I'm probably being overly critical. I have no trouble saying Phase One backs, including the P65+, deliver superb image quality. I have a p45+ and I love the files I get from it. It's just that quite some time has passed since the P45+ came out, and time marches on, and MF is under seige by the economic downturn, and useability improvements just keep getting ignored. As an engineer, I have no doubt that there are good reasons for many of these tradeoffs. But I also have no doubt that some of these issues can be improved on. My disappointment with the P65+ is probably unfair, and ignores all of the good things that you have added to it, but I don't see the things I'm complaining about as being in any way trivial either.
-
Can we pause for a minute to observe that Phase One is a small, closely-held company, making an amazing niche-product which is an amalgam of mechanical and digital artistry. The fact that they have remained a class-leader is impressive in and of itself.
Sure, with these sort of price tags, we want the world. The battery issue is especially maddening. (I blew two back batteries and a set of camera batteries in one evening shooting an abandoned research station in Antarctica -- all long exposures. By comparison, the 5D2's batteries have spectacular capacity). But, and it's a big but, consider that battery technology is the bleeding edge of R&D in countless sectors at the moment (least of which is the auto industry). Billions are spent annually trying to figure out better batteries. I, for one, can't really get down on a few dozens guys (and gals) who make these amazing back for failing to solve this one.
What the MF systems are really missing is image stabilization. I've had exactly the same critical sharpness problem Michael describes with tripod-mounted long glass on the Mamiya system, as well as with handheld shooting at moderate speeds. When coupled with MF's traditionally poor high-ISO performance, this is a real killer.
While I don't expect any of the DB makers to develop their own IS systems any more than I'd expect them to invent new battery technology, they really have to think about licensing this tech into their next generation of backs in order to stay relevant.
- N.
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Can't you use a little OQO computer with its 5" screen to tether in the field?
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Can't you use a little OQO computer with its 5" screen to tether in the field?
Possibly. That approach comes up from time to time, but I've never heard of anyone successfully demonstrating it. If it can run Capture One Pro, with support for tethering, then it should be doable. I seem to recall, however, that the OQO doesn't have a Firewire port (I'm going on recall here, so I could be wrong).
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Can't you use a little OQO computer with its 5" screen to tether in the field?
do they have a firewire port?
-
do they have a firewire port?
Ah, that's the issue. I just checked it out online and it is USB 2.0 only. Any idea why it has no Firewire port? Size issues?
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Any idea why it has no Firewire port? Size issues?
don't know. maybe it's possible to built in a single firewire port?
oh, and I'd need model 1.
Model 2 is already with Vista and there is still no firmware update from Phaseone to tether the P45 to Vista
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Operationally, the Leaf touch screen works great. Not sure why so much poo poo-ing on that. I guess none of you have an iPhone? A touch screen is infinitely GUI changeable. Four buttons are four buttons (Phase). That's the beauty of the iphone. Who wouldn't want an iphone on the back of a camera.
I totally agree! Especially if the touch screen is multi point like the iPhone's screen. Dragging an image around and zooming in and out would be a breeze. Buttons just can't compare, and as you point out, buttons are a fixed GUI (and waste of real estate). With a touch screen, the menu can be totally redone any time with a firmware update.
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What the MF systems are really missing is image stabilization.
Maybe you are right. At 1/60'' on tripod I use mirrorlock. And there is a difference with or without mirrorlock.
But I doubt that chip stabilization is going to happen in MFDB. Sony redesigned the entrie mirror mounting in their A900 to make AntiShake possible for 35mm Fullframe.
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Well, I'm probably being overly critical. I have no trouble saying Phase One backs, including the P65+, deliver superb image quality. I have a p45+ and I love the files I get from it. It's just that quite some time has passed since the P45+ came out, and time marches on, and MF is under seige by the economic downturn, and useability improvements just keep getting ignored. As an engineer, I have no doubt that there are good reasons for many of these tradeoffs. But I also have no doubt that some of these issues can be improved on. My disappointment with the P65+ is probably unfair, and ignores all of the good things that you have added to it, but I don't see the things I'm complaining about as being in any way trivial either.
Not at all Mort. In fact, if you read my post, you'll see that I stated that "I am not saying those elements are not important, they certainly are."
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Hmmmmm. I thought you could connect a laptop up to a Phase One back and get real interactive live view that way. I've heard of people using that approach to adjust focus in real time. If you can do it via a laptop, there should be no technical reason why it can't be done via the LCD (other than heat, obviously). Maybe I've misunderstood. You'd need to repeatedly read out the sensor, but why would CCDs specifically preclude repeatedly reading out the image.
There are indeed technical reasons why. I don't know what they are, but Live Preview on an LCD screen in a digital back and Live Preview on a computer monitor pose different challenges that have been overcome on the computer side, but no MFDB maker so far has solved getting Live Preview on the LCD screen of the digital back. Anyway, since our LCD screens are so bad, would it even be useful?
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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There is no corner sharpening on the HCD28. It is sharp by default.
This is only necessary on the Mamiya 28mm lens.
I absolutely disagree that there is no difference between lens corrections and we have looked at this extremely carefully in the optical lab in Sweden.
David
Mmmm....hmmm.
Sharp is actually a relative term, I believe. For instance, sharper than what?
When you say "sharp by default" and "no corner sharpening", are you saying that the DAC corrections on the 28mm HCD lens do not result in improved MTF data at the edges of the lens?
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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I just want to say " well done " to Phase One for the P65+. They are the first MFD back maker to make a 1:1 lens ratio & bring it to market.
Denis
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I just want to say " well done " to Phase One for the P65+. They are the first MFD back maker to make a 1:1 lens ratio & bring it to market.
Denis
Well the spec says "CCD size effective: 53.9 x 40.4 mm" which is still not quite 1:1....does it come with a mask for the viewfinder or does one have to guestimate the parts of the frame that are not going to be recorded?
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Well the spec says "CCD size effective: 53.9 x 40.4 mm" which is still not quite 1:1....does it come with a mask for the viewfinder or does one have to guestimate the parts of the frame that are not going to be recorded?
Hi
Its is so close I doubt if you can see it in the view finder. BTW we will be posting some new work using the Aptus 75 on the AFDII this weekend. I still use Leaf when we shoot MFD.
Denis
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Mmmm....hmmm.
Sharp is actually a relative term, I believe. For instance, sharper than what?
When you say "sharp by default" and "no corner sharpening", are you saying that the DAC corrections on the 28mm HCD lens do not result in improved MTF data at the edges of the lens?
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
What I mean is that I believe IF a lens is soft or lacks resolution in the corners, no amount of digital corrections in any form will rescue it. I do not think it is appropriate to apply USM to the corner fields of a lens to try and rescue something that is fundamentally not sharp.
Therefore as an example, the ethos of the HCD28 was to design a lens that was sharp edge to edge with an acceptable level of distortion that could be corrected digitally without further affecting the rest of the image.
The MTF graph (theoretically as it is not possible to measure optically!) will improve but more on a level of distortion and additional increase in resolution provided by a correction in Chromatic Aberration.
Hope that explains better what I meant.
David
PS. Regarding a comment elsewhere on the forum - if this makes a lens more economical for purchase then I am all for it.
-
Hi
Its is so close I doubt if you can see it in the view finder. BTW we will be posting some new work using the Aptus 75 on the AFDII this weekend. I still use Leaf when we shoot MFD.
Denis
I'll let you decide:
(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/50281Picture%207.jpg)
Might be more critical with still-life/ architecture framing
Looking forward to seeing new stuff from you, always refreshing!
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Doug P and Steve H, the biggest, quickest turn off for me is to see a rep/employee sniping at the competition. By all means emphasize your products good features but let the customer/prospective customer decide what matters to them. Believe it or not, we can work out what we need. Doug, glad to see your explanation and hope your weeks get better! Steve, I have long respected your approach and offerings to this site so I am surprised to see an edge creeping in. I also hope it was just a bad hair day. For me, Yair and Thierry (sadly no longer a rep for Sinar) were so way above sniping you just have to respect them. Best wishes.
-
I'll let you decide:
(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/50281Picture%207.jpg)
According to John's information here: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....mp;#entry267161 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=32873&st=0&p=267161&#entry267161) (Post #8) it looks like this:
[attachment=12110:p65f.jpg]
which one shows the right frame?
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which one shows the right frame?
You can do your own drawing, this is just an illustration
120 film sizes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/120_film)
60.5MP spec (http://www.phaseone.com/Content/p1digitalbacks/Pplusseries/Pplus/P65+.aspx)
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I'll let you decide:
(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/50281Picture%207.jpg)
Might be more critical with still-life/ architecture framing
Looking forward to seeing new stuff from you, always refreshing!
The AFD viewfinder shows 94% of the image so you may not need mask... some will do the math.
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You can do your own drawing, this is just an illustration
120 film sizes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/120_film)
60.5MP spec (http://www.phaseone.com/Content/p1digitalbacks/Pplusseries/Pplus/P65+.aspx)
ah, okay... the stated 55.9mm on the long side were wrong. It's 53.9 x 40.4mm.
So it looks like yours... but without the bold blue border still looks closer to FF :-)
[attachment=12111:p56f2.jpg]
In any case no problems with a viewfinder not showing 100% of the (645 FF-) image.
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Doug P and Steve H, the biggest, quickest turn off for me is to see a rep/employee sniping at the competition. By all means emphasize your products good features but let the customer/prospective customer decide what matters to them. Believe it or not, we can work out what we need. Doug, glad to see your explanation and hope your weeks get better! Steve, I have long respected your approach and offerings to this site so I am surprised to see an edge creeping in. I also hope it was just a bad hair day. For me, Yair and Thierry (sadly no longer a rep for Sinar) were so way above sniping you just have to respect them. Best wishes.
Hi Stewart
I'm sorry, but you will have to show me where you are seeing that I am "sniping at the competition", as you put it. If there was a flavor of "edginess", I regret that it came across that way, as my primary objective is only to show what our products capabilities are. I agree completely that being snipy with competitors does no one any service.
Thanks,
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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What I mean is that I believe IF a lens is soft or lacks resolution in the corners, no amount of digital corrections in any form will rescue it. I do not think it is appropriate to apply USM to the corner fields of a lens to try and rescue something that is fundamentally not sharp.
Therefore as an example, the ethos of the HCD28 was to design a lens that was sharp edge to edge with an acceptable level of distortion that could be corrected digitally without further affecting the rest of the image.
David
PS. Regarding a comment elsewhere on the forum - if this makes a lens more economical for purchase then I am all for it.
David
Are you saying that by "sharp edge to edge", the edges are equivalently sharp as the center (as well as to each other)? I think you are probably not saying that as I'm sure you will agree there is a sharpness falloff comparing the center performance to the edge performance of the HCD28.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Hi Stewart
I'm sorry, but you will have to show me where you are seeing that I am "sniping at the competition", as you put it. If there was a flavor of "edginess", I regret that it came across that way, as my primary objective is only to show what our products capabilities are. I agree completely that being snipy with competitors does no one any service.
Thanks,
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Hi Steve
Hmm... I think maybe I'm having a bad hair day. I just read your posts again and I think I was a little too critical - sorry. I read your comments re the Hass 28 lens as sniping whereas they were probably just genuinely questioning a claim that you disagreed with. Nothing wrong with that. Sorry again. Maybe I'm worrying that LL is getting a little more fractious and I don't want t see it go the way of...well, others.
-
David
Are you saying that by "sharp edge to edge", the edges are equivalently sharp as the center (as well as to each other)? I think you are probably not saying that as I'm sure you will agree there is a sharpness falloff comparing the center performance to the edge performance of the HCD28.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Actually I am! Maybe not all situations/apertures/times of day(!) etc etc...
But Its a damn good lens sharpness-wise and it is possible to achieve edge to edge sharpness.
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....c=28651&hl= (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28651&hl=)
Have a look at Post #2 and Post #9
David
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Hi Steve
Hmm... I think maybe I'm having a bad hair day. I just read your posts again and I think I was a little too critical - sorry. I read your comments re the Hass 28 lens as sniping whereas they were probably just genuinely questioning a claim that you disagreed with. Nothing wrong with that. Sorry again. Maybe I'm worrying that LL is getting a little more fractious and I don't want t see it go the way of...well, others.
I think that (at least among the reps, Yair, David, Thierry) there is too much respect (and hopefully professionalism) to get too fractious to where it would be a distraction from the point. We all do actively check each other, and yes, this is - from one standpoint - for the sake of curiosity and clarity, but also it can be competitive. We are all competitors, but we are certainly friendly and respectful competitors.
That said, we are all also after truth. And we are all certainly guilty at one time or another of being a little too indulgent with respect to each of our own products and I feel it is perfectly reasonable for us to call each other out on this (although usually our users do before we have a chance, as they're on their toes even more than we are).
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Re the smoother color comment: Many of us have said for quite some time that the Dalsa chip shows smoother color. In my test of a pre-release P65+ it could definitely be noted, but to my eyes it is a very subtle difference over the P45+ and perhaps a bit more over the P25+; like comparing the differences between Crystal and DP or Szechwan and Mandarin versions of Kung-Pao chicken, and to my palette not even as significant as the difference between Coke and Pepsi... Moreover, by adjusting the Color NR and/or the Clarity sliders in C1 you can pretty much make each file look like the other one, save for a more distinct difference in color response (profile).
Re the broader DR comment: We saw this in our comparison too, and it amounted to approximately 1/3rd stop more than the P45+ which was better than the P25+ by perhaps another 1/3rd stop. Ironically, when you adjusted the Clarity slider to get inter-pixel contrasts to match, the DR differences between these three backs disappeared to where they are for all intents and purposes, identical...
So while you can see these differences, they will likely only be noted by experienced digital file processors, possibly be noted by experienced viewers when comparing prints side-by-side, and probably not significant enough to be noted by 98% of the viewing public when not being compared side-by-side. (And it is interesting to then balance the p45+/P65+ justification comments against the P345+/G10 real-world print difference comments )
Frankly -- and I step way out on a limb here -- I think the stated differences are subtleties used by folks to create enough of a threshold of additional benefits to seal the rationalization for making their purchase. Don't get me wrong here, the P65+ is a remarkable achievement, and is the pinnacle of DB development IMO, and represents the best of what's currently available and IMO that in and of itself should be enough rationalization.
Cheers,
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Attn Michael:
Glad to hear your 45 is performing well! I tested two copies and while really nice in the center, they NEVER sharpened up in the corners at any aperture! Can you please post say a 1200x1200 pixel corner crop from any any of your files taken with that lens at around f8 so I can see the improvements for myself?
Thanks in advance!
FWIW, here are corner crops from the better of my two 45AF lenses (new D version) compared directly to my 35AF. Both at ISO 200 and f8, processed out to 16-bit tiffs with C1 lens adjustments ON and my basic sharpening settings for C1, then to CS4 for the crops and jpegging but no other processing or sharpening -- And yes, to be very clear, the 45 is properly focused; center frame is very sharp as is the 35's, though the 45 shows advantage in the center.
The 45:
(http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/45_crop_original.jpg)
The 35:
(http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/files/2/35_crop_original.jpg)
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Jack I read with interest your observations on the subtle differences of these backs. I currently use a 45+. A reviewer on the new P65+ review on the Phase One site that has also compared these backs observed that in his estimation, if he takes a shot of a green leaf, he would see approx. 20 shades of green with the 45+ and 100 shades of green with the new 65+ (again, correct me if I read this wrong!). That doesn't sound subtle to me. Seems everyone sees a little differently (no surprise I know). In the 65+ files that I'm seen I'm not seeing huge differences over my 45+....As you mentioned, possibly a lot has to do with processing in Capture One too. Just my observations....eleanor
Re the smoother color comment: Many of us have said for quite some time that the Dalsa chip shows smoother color. In my test of a pre-release P65+ it could definitely be noted, but to my eyes it is a very subtle difference over the P45+ and perhaps a bit more over the P25+; like comparing the differences between Crystal and DP or Szechwan and Mandarin versions of Kung-Pao chicken, and to my palette not even as significant as the difference between Coke and Pepsi... Moreover, by adjusting the Color NR and/or the Clarity sliders in C1 you can pretty much make each file look like the other one, save for a more distinct difference in color response (profile).
Re the broader DR comment: We saw this in our comparison too, and it amounted to approximately 1/3rd stop more than the P45+ which was better than the P25+ by perhaps another 1/3rd stop. Ironically, when you adjusted the Clarity slider to get inter-pixel contrasts to match, the DR differences between these three backs disappeared to where they are for all intents and purposes, identical...
So while you can see these differences, they will likely only be noted by experienced digital file processors, possibly be noted by experienced viewers when comparing prints side-by-side, and probably not significant enough to be noted by 98% of the viewing public when not being compared side-by-side. (And it is interesting to then balance the p45+/P65+ justification comments against the P345+/G10 real-world print difference comments )
Frankly -- and I step way out on a limb here -- I think the stated differences are subtleties used by folks to create enough of a threshold of additional benefits to seal the rationalization for making their purchase. Don't get me wrong here, the P65+ is a remarkable achievement, and is the pinnacle of DB development IMO, and represents the best of what's currently available and IMO that in and of itself should be enough rationalization.
Cheers,
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Jack I read with interest your observations on the subtle differences of these backs. I currently use a 45+. A reviewer on the new P65+ review on the Phase One site that has also compared these backs observed that in his estimation, if he takes a shot of a green leaf, he would see approx. 20 shades of green with the 45+ and 100 shades of green with the new 65+ (again, correct me if I read this wrong!). That doesn't sound subtle to me. Seems everyone sees a little differently (no surprise I know). In the 65+ files that I'm seen I'm not seeing huge differences over my 45+....As you mentioned, possibly a lot has to do with processing in Capture One too. Just my observations....eleanor
Hi Eleanor,
Well... 100 shades of green versus 20 in a single leaf, eh? To be honest, I'm not sure I've ever noticed even 10 shades of green in a single leaf, but then maybe your friend photographs really, really large leaves, or perhaps normal leaves from really, really close up? Regardless, I can assure you I have not seen that level of tonal differences in greens between these backs -- though again, this was a pre-release P65+ back, so maybe things changed a lot in the retail version -- but I doubt it... As I said though, I definitely DO see is a difference in the way color is rendered via the respective profiles. Meaning for example, if the sky is tuned to the same rich blue in each file, then greens off the P65+ look warmer to my eyes. Perhaps the person responding to you has a higher visual sensitivity to warmer greens, as in more to the yellows than blues?
My advice is to look at actual samples from each and judge for yourself.
Cheers,
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To avoid sensor cropping, increase subject distance by a factor of 41.5/40.4, or 2.7% further away, an extra one inch per three feet. Does that mess up perspective much, or put you out the back door of the studio?
Edit: with corrected sensor width of 53.9mm, make that 4% further away: two inches further back for every five feet from the subject.
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A reviewer on the new P65+ review on the Phase One site that has also compared these backs observed that in his estimation, if he takes a shot of a green leaf, he would see approx. 20 shades of green with the 45+ and 100 shades of green with the new 65+
They actually published THAT on their website?
That's almost as funny as the elephant story
Mark
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Maybe I need to go back and re- read....that's what i though was said but sometimes I tend to "skim" articles...:-) (thus my comment...."correct me if I'm wrong") eleanor
They actually published THAT on their website?
That's almost as funny as the elephant story
Mark
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All medium format backs currently use CCDs, which are not suitable technically for Live View.
I suspect that the use of CCD's is probably what explains the "microcontrast" issue that makes medium-format digital look different than DSLR-based digital. We saw similar differences between CMOS and Kodak-based CCD sensors a few years ago.
If "size" was the answer, then the "microcontrast" difference should be visible in downsized DSLR-based images too. But it isn't. A CMOS image has a CMOS image look. I'm not necessarily calling the CMOS look "evil", but if you want the medium-format digital look, you won't get there with the latest from Canon or Sony-based sensors.
Ken
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Hi Eleanor,
Well... 100 shades of green versus 20 in a single leaf, eh? To be honest, I'm not sure I've ever noticed even 10 shades of green in a single leaf, but then maybe your friend photographs really, really large leaves, or perhaps normal leaves from really, really close up? Regardless, I can assure you I have not seen that level of tonal differences in greens between these backs -- though again, this was a pre-release P65+ back, so maybe things changed a lot in the retail version -- but I doubt it... As I said though, I definitely DO see is a difference in the way color is rendered via the respective profiles. Meaning for example, if the sky is tuned to the same rich blue in each file, then greens off the P65+ look warmer to my eyes. Perhaps the person responding to you has a higher visual sensitivity to warmer greens, as in more to the yellows than blues?
My advice is to look at actual samples from each and judge for yourself.
Cheers,
i think many of this and other comments are to be taken with a good portion of salt. in other words such comparison of 20:100 is pure marketing bs. ( meanwhile the comparision between the g10 and the mf back unfortunately is not .... ) . the dalsa sensors have been always a tick better than their kodak counterparts, and more expensive for the manufactors too. for me qualitywise allways the leaf/sinar backs had the preferred color rendition ( a little bit... nothing dramatic ) and also they havent had of some "kodak- typical" artefacts ( as christmas tree color artefacts between fne branches of trees ). this will be probably now be the case comparing the p65 to the p45.
the difference between the two last phase backs might be bigger than to a 33mp leaf or sinar back, simply because sinar+leaf used already dalsa sensors in their backs.
unfortunately is typical too for the dalsas a drawback: the centerfold, if not corrected with the right code. here the test shots i saw ( beeing published in another forum some weeks ago ) showed clear visible cf in the p65 files in the sky. so i hope phase will not step in similar problems than happenend with leaf in the past. we ( i ) will see this very critical.
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Hello all
My first post
I would like to as if there has been any problems with image and colour/image aberations on the P65 images? The new back has a Delsa chip which can cause "centrefold" when used in conjunction with lens shift. I am a leaf Aptus 75 user and experience it periodically and seems to be more noticeable as the chip gets bigger, ie there is little on the Aptus 22 but some on the 75 when I use shift with a 35mm digitar lens. This is corrected with a custom gain adjust. I bring this up because I downloaded an image from Capture integration that had a substantial centre fold in the image. http://www.captureintegration.com/download...gration.jpg.zip (http://www.captureintegration.com/download/p65_by_capture_integration.jpg.zip). This image has now been changed. I would like to know if there has been more problems with centrefold as the size of chip has increased and if so has the P65 back some new software to fix it or are we back using the gain adjust or phase equivalent?
Thanks in advance
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Hello all
My first post
I would like to as if there has been any problems with image and colour/image aberations on the P65 images? The new back has a Delsa chip which can cause "centrefold" when used in conjunction with lens shift. I am a leaf Aptus 75 user and experience it periodically and seems to be more noticeable as the chip gets bigger, ie there is little on the Aptus 22 but some on the 75 when I use shift with a 35mm digitar lens. This is corrected with a custom gain adjust. I bring this up because I downloaded an image from Capture integration that had a substantial centre fold in the image. http://www.captureintegration.com/download...gration.jpg.zip (http://www.captureintegration.com/download/p65_by_capture_integration.jpg.zip). This image has now been changed. I would like to know if there has been more problems with centrefold as the size of chip has increased and if so has the P65 back some new software to fix it or are we back using the gain adjust or phase equivalent?
Thanks in advance
its caused by tolerances in the dalsa chip ( electronic ) and it has nothing to do with the size of the chips. some chips show it more ,some less.
the 22 mp generation showed it way less than the 33 mp generation, but it could appear too,- but was very rare.
one can get completely rid of this effect, but it needs very clever programming of the software to eliminate the cf during the download from the back to the computer. maybe the p1 programmers will find the key for the code fast .... maybe not. i have seen this cf in the p65 files too, as i wrote above.
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Hello all
My first post
I would like to as if there has been any problems with image and colour/image aberations on the P65 images? The new back has a Delsa chip which can cause "centrefold" when used in conjunction with lens shift. I am a leaf Aptus 75 user and experience it periodically and seems to be more noticeable as the chip gets bigger, ie there is little on the Aptus 22 but some on the 75 when I use shift with a 35mm digitar lens. This is corrected with a custom gain adjust. I bring this up because I downloaded an image from Capture integration that had a substantial centre fold in the image. http://www.captureintegration.com/download...gration.jpg.zip (http://www.captureintegration.com/download/p65_by_capture_integration.jpg.zip). This image has now been changed. I would like to know if there has been more problems with centrefold as the size of chip has increased and if so has the P65 back some new software to fix it or are we back using the gain adjust or phase equivalent?
Thanks in advance
The image that showed a strange issue was processed in 4.6.2 Beta #3. We did not notice at the time, and only recently were informed that 4.6.2 Beta 3 had a bug which caused this issue. The current version 4.6.3 shows no sign whatsoever of the issue, and is the version used to process the image now linked from our front page. To my knowledge no production (i.e. not a beta) version of Capture One produced this error.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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unfortunately is typical too for the dalsas a drawback: the centerfold, if not corrected with the right code. here the test shots i saw ( beeing published in another forum some weeks ago ) showed clear visible cf in the p65 files in the sky. so i hope phase will not step in similar problems than happenend with leaf in the past. we ( i ) will see this very critical.
A FWIW comment on the centerfold issue: I *did* have notable centerfold lines in a few of my pre-release P65+ files -- and I think back then I was converting with C1 4.6.0. Anyway, I reprocessed one of the raws that had a pronounced set of the smeary fold lines to show a friend what they looked like, only was now using 4.6.2 -- and presto, the fold lines were all gone! IOW it seems C1 has "fixed" that issue in the latest revs of the conversion software Obviously the lines are still there, just that the software is indeed doing some very clever things to more effectively camouflage it.
Cheers,
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.... great to hear.
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<deleted by author of post>
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Antartica - What Worked – What Didn't
Temperatures were moderate, ranging from about +2C to -3C during our two weeks at the Peninsula.
Just received the new PI monthly newsletter ...
Headline :
Antarctica – The Ultimate Test ... P 65+ Camera System passes the ultimate test
serious advertising :-)
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I'm happy to see that Michael has added something of a retraction to the review, concerning his false statement about the Hy6.
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Jack,
If those very same files are put through Lightroom, then do the fold lines show up? If they really exist but CO Pro is masking them now in 4.6.2, that could still be an issue for anyone going to another raw converter, like Raw Developer, LR, ACR, Bibble?, and any others.
rainer mentioned that it could happen on the Dalsa 22 sensors, but with near 6000 files on my A22, I've never seen any centerfold. I know the A75 went through this issue.
I don't know -- I have (happily) nuked LR from my systems. I could try it with ACR though when I'm back at my main box on Monday...
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Yes, he took it back and printed the press release in big yellow letters. It is interesting that it is Leaf and not Jenoptik/Sinar that first reacted. It called my attention that they say that "Leaf has created the best medium format camera system in the world."
I'm happy to see that Michael has added something of a retraction to the review, concerning his false statement about the Hy6.
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Yes, he took it back and printed the press release in big yellow letters. It is interesting that it is Leaf and not Jenoptik/Sinar that first reacted. It called my attention that they say that "Leaf has created the best medium format camera system in the world."
Leonardo I'm assuming that you've unintentionally dropped the few words leading to this quote, yes?
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Antartica - What Worked – What Didn't
Temperatures were moderate, ranging from about +2C to -3C during our two weeks at the Peninsula.
Just received the new PI monthly newsletter ...
Headline :
Antarctica – The Ultimate Test ... P 65+ Camera System passes the ultimate test
serious advertising :-)
Yeah... noticed that too... couldn't help but laugh. Any typical winter day in North America and most of Europe is typically more challenging than Antartica in the summer...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Ok, I was thinking about it exactly when making my coffee, so, to be fair I will post it here.:
"Our customers, reviewers and even some of our critics all agree that with the AFi-II, Leaf has created the best medium format camera system in the world..."
You noted that I only said that this quote was interesting,? nothing more.
Leonardo I'm assuming that you've unintentionally dropped the few words leading to this quote, yes?
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I have to say that I chuckled as well when I saw yesterday's Phase One newsletter.
But hey, advertising is about hyperbole, and that's what the Phase newsletter is, advertising.
Michael
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Hmm...wonder whether people think Hasselblad were cut this much slack in this forum over their no less ridiculous claim about full frame... Just a thought.
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Sure is easy to throw Pollen when your not having to pay for it..:+}
I seriuosly doubt Michael will be pulling out his credit cards..:+}
Or are you Michael?
Probably only a small handful of guys buying this back. Not just wanting but actually buying. I heard there was a waiting list.. That sounds impossible unless they are being made special order or a dozen a time?
Maybe we should take a Poll, I'd be really coriuos.
In any case I hope they do sell them and stay in business ofcourse!
Maybe leafs announcement yesterday will change Phase Ones pricing plan?
I sure would rent one for special projects if I could. But who will be buying this Back. Car guys maybe? Landscape Guys printing really Big, More Crop space? Some one with lot's of extra cash during economic tough times?
I really print Big maybe Once a Year for exhibitions.
Seems, atleast in my part of the world, the Pixel hunt is way over and seeing how many are doing business on the internet these days, all those megapixels are not needed anymore..
Just coriuos what market are they looking for?
Snook
PS. After splattering Michael all of the Phase One Mailing I got the other day, He better be getting something out of it!!!
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I think Michael paid for his back. I would hope however that he got a decent deal.
Schools etc get "Education Disounts" too.
Edmund
Sure is easy to throw Pollen when your not having to pay for it..:+}
I seriuosly doubt Michael will be pulling out his credit cards..:+}
Or are you Michael?
Snook
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I never accept any products for free (except software). I will accept on offer for dinner (but I usually end up buying the next time).
I purchased my P65+, just as I did the previous backs before it. It's the business that I'm in.
Michael
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I think it's relatively clear that the mega pixels alone aren't what's worth the upgrade. For studio work especially, I imagine that someone using a lesser digital back is more than happy with regards to size.
I do a mix of studio and location work, and I need my back to be flexible, and so what I'm very interested in are the high ISO capabilities of the P65. And I believe that this is what Phase One reps are saying is the main selling point of the new back.
As a professional photographer I have to make the decision as to whether I use medium format or DSLR. In the same way that I used to use my Pentax 67 on many occasions when I could have used 35mm, I now use my P45 on even more occasions where a DSLR would suffice. I do so because I just enjoy shooting medium format a lot more than shooting 35mm. I always did, and I always will. I'm also one of those people who think that the actual photos look better. Do I wish the price wasn't so high? Of course I do, but photography is also my job and I don't see the point in moaning about the cost of all my equipment. After all, as has been mentioned in other threads, it's not just the back, it's also the rent on the studio, lenses, computers, lights, coffee machine, etc.
Last week I had an unpleasant all day shoot on 5 different locations coordinating 15 people in front of the camera, because the client wanted to milk as much from the days shoot as possible. I was feeling negative to the shoot in the run up to it, and started planning to use a DSLR with the 24-70mm and just shoot away and not have to think about the photography so much, at least. Then I calmed down and thought about it a bit more and decided to go with my back after all. It was a horrible day weather wise and I have a significant amount of out of focus and/or blurred images. But, I did hit enough, and I have a handful of images I really like. However, the main thing I enjoyed that day was squeezing the shutter release on my contax 645, feeling the mirror slap a bit. And, being able to do so without missing every 17th frame because I had to change film backs. There is no turning back from digital, and for me Phase One allows me to enjoy my job. For others it will be leaf, or Hasselblad, etc. Price on that?
After 3 years using Phase One and Capture One I'm really very happy. Around five years ago, in that dark period when we had to switch to digital photography, but spent most of our time in PS making the files as nice as the little LCD made them out to be, what Phase One are now offering was science fiction. When I first moved to MF and Capture One, I kept on opening the processed files in PS expecting to have to do something to them, only to find that there was really very little to do, if anything.
There seems to be a lot of whining in recent weeks on this forum about the negative aspects of digital backs. I'm pretty excited about where photography is going. It's accessible to so many more people, and if you compare the bulk of work out there then the quality is far superior to what was around in your average magazine and advertising before digital. We can get into arguments over whether DSLR is as good as MF, and if you're one of the people who believe that DSLRs, or the G10 for that matter, takes as good a photo as the MF back then all power to you; go and shoot with what you want. A lot of my favourite photos of recent years have been of my family taken with my mobile phone, for that matter.
I don't believe that the people at Phase One (or Leaf and others) are sitting around complacently thinking that they've got a perfect product. I imagine Phase One are trying to resolve issues, but I think that they have a right to be pretty proud of what they can offer at the moment. I prefer to look at this glass as half full, because it's not getting emptier, but fuller for us as photographers.
Bearing this in mind I would like to agree with the poster who questioned the full frame marketing talk. It's still not. At least compared to my contax 645 negatives I dug out to check.
.....and a couple of practical questions from the spec:
- When it says "Live view: Yes", what does that mean if it's not apparently possible on CMOS sensors? This is misleading if it means that the live preview is only in the computer. Can someone clarify?
- Power: 8-33 V DC (from FireWire®). Does this mean that I can power the P64+ from my PC through firewire? That would be very handy
Cheers
Stefan
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- When it says "Live view: Yes", what does that mean if it's not apparently possible on CMOS sensors? This is misleading if it means that the live preview is only in the computer. Can someone clarify?
- Power: 8-33 V DC (from FireWire®). Does this mean that I can power the P64+ from my PC through firewire? That would be very handy
In medium format digital "Live View" refers to the ability to do Live View WHEN TETHERED. Without special shutter systems no MFD Live View is on par with the Live View offered by the current range of CMOS sensor Canon/Nikon cameras, and no MFD Live View is available on the LCD of the back itself. However, in controllable situations such as studio and architecture the Live View functionality can be extremely functional when viewed in the absolute rather than comparing it to what is possible with Canon/Nikon.
Any of the P and P+ series backs can be powered over firewire. However, some laptops do not offer a stable and strong enough power through the firewire port to power the back. For instance a MacBookPro will often be very stable offering power over firewire when plugged in, but when unplugged and low on battery may cause connection errors when powering the back by firewire. For that reason every P+ back has an option to power the digital back by battery even when plugged into firewire. I believe Leaf/Hassy/Sinar have similar functionality and hopefully someone will chime in to confirm this.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:doug@captureintegration.com)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Thanks Doug.
Hmmm, I'll have to check that out. I have always just shot tethered using my batteries, which would run down as normal. I have a kouwell firewire expresscard because the 4pin on my laptop was giving me all sorts of connection problems, and I've just noticed it has a jack socket for an AC adapter.
Thanks for posting your reply so swiftly.
cheers
Stefan
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Doug,
Brilliant, it works. I just had to plug in an AC adapter into the firewire expresscard, and the P45 automatically changed power source. Is there a maximum length of time that the back can be left on for in one go?
Sorry to get off post for a minute, but maybe someone else could find the info useful.
cheers
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For that reason every P+ back has an option to power the digital back by battery even when plugged into firewire. I believe Leaf/Hassy/Sinar have similar functionality and hopefully someone will chime in to confirm this.
The H3D monitors the wattage on the FW port and will 'top up' with the internal battery if necessary, automatically.