Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: tho_mas on March 04, 2009, 05:51:38 pm

Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: tho_mas on March 04, 2009, 05:51:38 pm
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/ (http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/)

(By the way, Leica stopped the R-Line by today)
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Jonathan Lee on March 04, 2009, 05:56:12 pm
Quote from: tho_mas
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/ (http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/)

(By the way, Leica stopped the R-Line by today)

They discontinued the R line? Please tell us more.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Carsten W on March 04, 2009, 05:56:25 pm
Quote from: tho_mas
(By the way, Leica stopped the R-Line by today)

What??? Could you elaborate?
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: tho_mas on March 04, 2009, 05:58:56 pm
unfortunately in German.
As all bad news here these days :-)

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/...html#post831158 (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-kundenforum/79608-leica-stellt-r-system-ein-3.html#post831158)
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Carsten W on March 04, 2009, 06:20:21 pm
Quote from: tho_mas
unfortunately in German.
As all bad news here these days :-)

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/...html#post831158 (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-kundenforum/79608-leica-stellt-r-system-ein-3.html#post831158)

Here is the link to the letter sent by Leica to dealers. It is in German.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/...tion-7_2009.pdf (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/attachments/analog-forum/129881d1236083409-zukunft-der-analogen-r-linie-leica-information-7_2009.pdf)

What was said was that all existing Leica R cameras and lenses are no longer available, and will no longer be produced. However, this is followed by a paragraph talking about a generational change, and that as soon as possible, more information will be made available about this. I presume this is the R10, although the wording makes it sound like the new system will no longer be called the R system.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: lisa_r on March 04, 2009, 06:22:20 pm
I guess there are still no prices on any of this S2 stuff??

Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Carsten W on March 04, 2009, 06:46:55 pm
Quote from: lisa_r
I guess there are still no prices on any of this S2 stuff??

No. Leica's CEO once stated that they were keeping the price below 20.000 Euro, with the goal being 15.000. He didn't say whether that would include the 70mm. The system is meant to be properly announced in late summer.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: BJL on March 04, 2009, 08:58:59 pm
BabelFish handles this unusually well:

"... Today we would like to inform you about the fact that immediately no LEICA R9 and no more R-objectives is available. A renewed production does not take place. Accessories for the Leica R-system, which are published in the price list, can refer you naturally so long available over the Customer service. We work at present intensively on it, also by the attained realizations from the development of the LEICA S2, which we will bring in the late summer to 2009 on the market to make a change of generations possible in the past R-system."

It is fairly clear from this that the entire R-system is discontinued, not just the R9 body, and what is replacing it is the new 30x45mm format S system (note: S follows R), not an R10. This fulfills my idea that Leica, like Olympus with OM and 4/3, has decided that the digital transition is best done with a clean break from the old manual focus, mechanically coupled system, not hampering progress with lens backward compatibility, so a new format might as well be chosen. Except that Leica is upsizing instead of downsizing, probably wise for its naturally high end target market.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Khun_K on March 04, 2009, 09:27:09 pm
Quote from: BJL
BabelFish handles this unusually well:

"... Today we would like to inform you about the fact that immediately no LEICA R9 and no more R-objectives is available. A renewed production does not take place. Accessories for the Leica R-system, which are published in the price list, can refer you naturally so long available over the Customer service. We work at present intensively on it, also by the attained realizations from the development of the LEICA S2, which we will bring in the late summer to 2009 on the market to make a change of generations possible in the past R-system."

It is fairly clear from this that the entire R-system is discontinued, not just the R9 body, and what is replacing it is the new 30x45mm format S system (note: S follows R), not an R10. This fulfills my idea that Leica, like Olympus with OM and 4/3, has decided that the digital transition is best done with a clean break from the old manual focus, mechanically coupled system, not hampering progress with lens backward compatibility, so a new format might as well be chosen. Except that Leica is upsizing instead of downsizing, probably wise for its naturally high end target market.
I would take this as a good news. Leica is a company too small to carry such broad line of products and design a system from group up with focus on right technology is a bold and smart move, with film, its understandable to keep standard size, with chips, if it is available, then size really does not matter, only the result matters.  Anyway, it is all about the right marketing now.
I have in the past till now have a good collection of R lenses myself, these days they go on my Canon, but rarely.  What I might suggest Leica to do, and perhaps not too difficult to do, is to produce lens when the demand is sufficient, no, the R itself is a market too small, but convert the R lens to EF or F mount to sell to those Canon and Nikon users may not be such a bad idea.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Carsten W on March 05, 2009, 05:32:18 am
Quote from: BJL
BabelFish handles this unusually well:

"... Today we would like to inform you about the fact that immediately no LEICA R9 and no more R-objectives is available. A renewed production does not take place. Accessories for the Leica R-system, which are published in the price list, can refer you naturally so long available over the Customer service. We work at present intensively on it, also by the attained realizations from the development of the LEICA S2, which we will bring in the late summer to 2009 on the market to make a change of generations possible in the past R-system."

It is fairly clear from this that the entire R-system is discontinued, not just the R9 body, and what is replacing it is the new 30x45mm format S system (note: S follows R), not an R10. This fulfills my idea that Leica, like Olympus with OM and 4/3, has decided that the digital transition is best done with a clean break from the old manual focus, mechanically coupled system, not hampering progress with lens backward compatibility, so a new format might as well be chosen. Except that Leica is upsizing instead of downsizing, probably wise for its naturally high end target market.

On the contrary, Leica explicitly states that the successor to the R9 will be built from technology used in the S2 project, not that the S2 *is* the successor. The above lousy translation does the German text no justice. Here is one I hand-tuned from a Google translation:

"Ladies and Gentlemen,

we want to thank you very much for the successful sale of the Leica R system in the recent years. Many photographers worldwide now use this system with joy and great success. Therefore many thanks.

Today we would like to inform you that from now on no LEICA R9 or R-Lenses are available. There will be no new production. Accessories for the Leica R System in the published price list, you can obviously obtain while on the Stock Customer Service.

We are currently working hard on a new generation of the formerly named R-system, with insights gained from the development of LEICA S2, which will be introduced in the late summer of 2009 on the market [the S2, not the R followup]. We will keep you informed.

We wish you, in our common interest, a continued successful collaboration."

One of the key words here I have translated with "former", but the German "bisherige" is much more ambiguous. It is not clear if the reference is to the system known as the R system *up until now*, or if it really means "former", i.e. no more. In either case, Leica's intent with the letter appears to be to reassure the clientele as much as possible that the successor is being worked on, and will be something like a baby-S2, while at the same time being honest about the risks involved and the possibility that there won't be one in the end.

What is really missing from this is a statement about the future compatibility of the existing R lenses.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: tho_mas on March 05, 2009, 05:45:27 am
Quote from: carstenw
What is really missing from this is a statement about the future compatibility of the existing R lenses.
exactly.
Does not make much sense to announce the end of production of the so far named "R"-line without announcing a follow up.
They don't talk about a new generation of the R-line but about a generation change (based on the insights from the S2-production).
I think it's quite obvious that the upcoming AF system will be not backward compatible.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: BJL on March 05, 2009, 11:17:36 am
Quote from: carstenw
Today we would like to inform you that from now on no LEICA R9 or R-Lenses are available. There will be no new production.
That part seems clear: there will be no more production of R-lenses. So whatever Leica has coming, it is fairly clear that R-lenses are not part of the plan.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: jjlphoto on March 05, 2009, 11:33:57 am
Probably means new lenses for the proposed R10 system will be auto focus, electronic diaphram, like a Canon lens. There are just not enough manual focus customers out there anymore.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 05, 2009, 04:45:54 pm
Quote from: tho_mas
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/ (http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/)

(By the way, Leica stopped the R-Line by today)

Plus
- amazing AF lenses, some with leaf shutter (TBC, as of now only Leica calls them amazing)
- high mepa pixel sensor
- good ergonomics
- Leica build and design (although some M8 owners would disagree)
- differentiation from the competition

Minus
- 14 bits (can be debated)
- micro-lenses (can be debated)
- no life view
- 15.000 Euros
- credibility of Leica as a long term supplier of high end digital equipment
- likely lack of accessories from third parties (L brackets,...)
- no second hand offering in lenses,...

It really is sandwitched between the D3x and high end backs. All in all, I am still not sure who this is targetting...

- PJ guys looking for a higher image quality?
  - I don't believe that any pro PJ photographer will be able to afford this beast, newspapers also won't want to invest
  - the files are too large to be uploaded easily while on a assignement
  - the jpeg engine is likely to suck big time compared to what the DSLR can deliver
  - how to handle the backup issue?
  - what if your bodies did on you in Ulan Bator?
  - does it make sense to walk the suburbs of Badgad with 25.000 Euros worth of equipment around your neck?

- high end fashion shooters looking for better AF (TBC)?
  - Is the AF of the H3D/Mamiya really that bad?
  - But are the additional 13 megapixel over the D3x really worth 8000 Euros considering the actual usage of fashion images?
  - How is medium iso image quality going to be?
  - aren't all the high end shooters already well equiped with gear that works?

- landscape guys?
  - But the lack of T/S lenses will hurt here for some
  - The lack of life view is also a major issue here if you are really into large print sizes
  - The hardcore MFDB shooters will want 16 bits and micro lenses less sensors (whether that is relevant or not is a different question)

- people who like the look of the Leica lenses and for whom money doesn't matter?
  - Nothing to say here

- the so called rich dentists
  - most probably so

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: KevinA on March 05, 2009, 05:54:49 pm


It really is sandwitched between the D3x and high end backs. All in all, I am still not sure who this is targetting...

Me,
I shoot aerials this looks purpose made for me, I'm fed up with 35mm lens performance on Canon (I have Nikon lenses as well) the  MF offerings just does not handle well enough. All I need is a basic quality camera I can set iso, meter, set a shutter speed and Aperture and focus some sharp lenses. That's it for me, I don't need high speed, I don't need to change viewfinders, I don't even need auto focus, basically I don't need want or desire any bells and whistles.  I just want a camera that gets the basics right.
Wether in the present climate I can afford the bloody thing is another question.

Kevin.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: adam z on March 05, 2009, 06:03:27 pm
I put a post up about this camera a few minutes ago elswhere on this forum, then found this - sorry!

Anyway it answers some of my questions, and the price ( I heard that it would be similarly priced to a 1Ds MkIII at one stage - but found it hard to believe)means that a MF back and body are not a whole lot different (I think) and would probably be better, although I love the idea of the small body which probably handles much better than more traditional MF designs (for handheld shooting especially) - this is early days, maybe later incarnations of this exciting new camera may be fantastic. We shall see.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Graham Mitchell on March 05, 2009, 06:03:47 pm
Quote from: KevinA
the  MF offerings just does not handle well enough.

Can you elaborate?
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: paratom on March 06, 2009, 02:44:22 am
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Plus
- amazing AF lenses, some with leaf shutter (TBC, as of now only Leica calls them amazing)
- high mepa pixel sensor
- good ergonomics
- Leica build and design (although some M8 owners would disagree)
- differentiation from the competition

Minus
- 14 bits (can be debated)
- micro-lenses (can be debated)
- no life view
- 15.000 Euros
- credibility of Leica as a long term supplier of high end digital equipment
- likely lack of accessories from third parties (L brackets,...)
- no second hand offering in lenses,...

It really is sandwitched between the D3x and high end backs. All in all, I am still not sure who this is targetting...

- PJ guys looking for a higher image quality?
  - I don't believe that any pro PJ photographer will be able to afford this beast, newspapers also won't want to invest
  - the files are too large to be uploaded easily while on a assignement
  - the jpeg engine is likely to suck big time compared to what the DSLR can deliver
  - how to handle the backup issue?
  - what if your bodies did on you in Ulan Bator?
  - does it make sense to walk the suburbs of Badgad with 25.000 Euros worth of equipment around your neck?

- high end fashion shooters looking for better AF (TBC)?
  - Is the AF of the H3D/Mamiya really that bad?
  - But are the additional 13 megapixel over the D3x really worth 8000 Euros considering the actual usage of fashion images?
  - How is medium iso image quality going to be?
  - aren't all the high end shooters already well equiped with gear that works?

- landscape guys?
  - But the lack of T/S lenses will hurt here for some
  - The lack of life view is also a major issue here if you are really into large print sizes
  - The hardcore MFDB shooters will want 16 bits and micro lenses less sensors (whether that is relevant or not is a different question)

- people who like the look of the Leica lenses and for whom money doesn't matter?
  - Nothing to say here

- the so called rich dentists
  - most probably so

Cheers,
Bernard

Good question.
I think it depends a lot on the lenses.
If the T/S lens is good/excellent, some people might be able to use the S2 instead of owning a  Cambo/Alpa/Horseman camera and a MF-system.
If the Leaf shutter lenses work fine, it could be a replacement for people who need/own both a leaf-shutter and And a system with shorter shutter times.
I dont know but are 37 MP really that bad? If the handling of the S2 is just a little faster, if the ISO are just 1/2 stop better, if the lenses are really usable wide open and the AF is precise and maybe a little bit faster, what would one miss when using the S2?

You probably give up just a little bit at the upper end (some MP, a little bit sensor size), but extend the flexibility quite a bit at the lower end (smaller, faster, more rugged/weatherproof, more portable)

Wouldnt it be a good camera for fashion shooter, portrait shooters, wedding shooters, landscape and nature shooters (as long as they do not need to use long tele)?

Cheers, Tom


Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Ben Rubinstein on March 06, 2009, 04:11:08 am
Aren't the cons of microlenses limited to the use on tech cameras which are not relevant in this case?
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: KevinA on March 06, 2009, 06:27:44 am
Quote from: foto-z
Can you elaborate?

I am shooting aerials. Yes I know a MF can do it very well. When I am flying I have quoted a fixed price for the job and I will be doing a number of jobs per trip. A helicopter is costing £20. per minute. I tried a Leaf system with a zoom and quite frankly it was like a drainpipe full of cement.... heavy, Hasselblad was better but only 1/800th of a second, plenty fast enough most of the time but not always if you need a long lens and it's a bit breezy, plus I'm still not covinced by the hype hasselblad tries to spin. That leaves the Mamiya and Phaseone I am tempted by this, it's the best for me handling MF available as of now. The Leica S still looks much better for me. I also shoot lots of images for my library when I'm flying, having a couple of bodies with zooms really helps. If I was always stuck with primes (I do use them as well) my profit margin would take a dip and also not having high iso available for evening and night work would not be good. Most of the time 35mm does what I need, if I could have the MF quality with 35mm versatility I would have the best of both Worlds.

Kevin.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Snook on March 06, 2009, 07:29:24 am
Quote from: KevinA
I am shooting aerials. Yes I know a MF can do it very well. When I am flying I have quoted a fixed price for the job and I will be doing a number of jobs per trip. A helicopter is costing £20. per minute. I tried a Leaf system with a zoom and quite frankly it was like a drainpipe full of cement.... heavy, Hasselblad was better but only 1/800th of a second, plenty fast enough most of the time but not always if you need a long lens and it's a bit breezy, plus I'm still not covinced by the hype hasselblad tries to spin. That leaves the Mamiya and Phaseone I am tempted by this, it's the best for me handling MF available as of now. The Leica S still looks much better for me. I also shoot lots of images for my library when I'm flying, having a couple of bodies with zooms really helps. If I was always stuck with primes (I do use them as well) my profit margin would take a dip and also not having high iso available for evening and night work would not be good. Most of the time 35mm does what I need, if I could have the MF quality with 35mm versatility I would have the best of both Worlds.

Kevin.

Are you think about which back??
I think it is pretty clear that the newest 35mm digital cameras are equaling MF. Unless your thinking of maybe the P65.

In anycase the Big difference I see is H body can sync with flash up to 800/th and Mamiya is only 125/th which really sux..
Still do not understand why there is no way to make some kind of adaptor to use the Old leaf shutter lens with the newer bodies?
Mamiya will take FOREVER to release a LS lens! Maybe with some of these new Pocket Poppers or Pocket wizards the syncing speed might go up. I do not see how that will work.
In any case I think the Leica is to late and wrong timing (re:world economic crisis)
Hopefully the Dentist industry is doing well....
Snook
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: bcooter on March 06, 2009, 09:45:54 am
Quote from: KevinA
if I could have the MF quality with 35mm versatility I would have the best of both Worlds.

Kevin.


D3X

Make your life easy and save more than 1/2 the money.

Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: KevinA on March 06, 2009, 11:10:43 am
Quote from: bcooter
D3X

Make your life easy and save more than 1/2 the money.

I have a 1DsmkIII I doubt in the real world there is much difference between the two, it's 35mm lenses that let the game down for me. I'm not over sold on AF either good for sport no doubt.

Kevin.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: KevinA on March 06, 2009, 11:16:01 am
deleted
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: KevinA on March 06, 2009, 11:24:21 am
Quote from: Snook
Are you think about which back??
I think it is pretty clear that the newest 35mm digital cameras are equaling MF. Unless your thinking of maybe the P65.

In anycase the Big difference I see is H body can sync with flash up to 800/th and Mamiya is only 125/th which really sux..
Still do not understand why there is no way to make some kind of adaptor to use the Old leaf shutter lens with the newer bodies?
Mamiya will take FOREVER to release a LS lens! Maybe with some of these new Pocket Poppers or Pocket wizards the syncing speed might go up. I do not see how that will work.
In any case I think the Leica is to late and wrong timing (re:world economic crisis)
Hopefully the Dentist industry is doing well....
Snook

Generally I don't use flash in helicopters, so not a concern for me. My first thought when I got the smkIII was it highlighted the differences between 35mm and MF. That could be down to the hit or miss AF I think might be sorted now, in a few weeks from now I might be agreeing with you if it is sorted. I want to start shooting video if I can get a gyro system to my spec, the 5D is looking an option, I'm waiting for the hyperdust to settle to see where it fits in, that's another reason why I'm not rushing to MF or Nikon.
But if I was to design a camera for my needs the S2 would be pretty close, that's why it is on my radar, you know the lenses are going to be top notch.

Kevin.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Guy Mancuso on March 06, 2009, 01:55:21 pm
Just some more details after I got a demo of the S2 . More to come but heading home right now from Vegas and yes I wound up supporting the local Vegas economy. Bummer

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5967 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5967)
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: pss on March 06, 2009, 08:51:36 pm
to me the S2 looks like an amazing camera...a huge finder, large sensor, the whole thing built from the start for digital capture, superfast image processing....and with leica lenses...with shutters....what is not to like?

i read today that leica will not announce a price until the thing actually hits the market....which is smart because who knows.....i get bombarded with emails selling me MF backs....cheaper then the D3x...

regardless of the price of the body, the lenses will be the killer...in performance and in price....in the end, it won't matter how much the body is if the lenses come in close to 5 figures....

i really like the way leica approached this whole thing...built from the ground up with one goal in mind....image quality and ease of use...DNG!....

i think it will be great.....BUT i am shooting with a 5DII...at a fraction of the price it handles everything i throw at it beautifully....just amazing....high iso.....just a joy to shoot with.....slow AF compared to the dsIII, but i am afraid it might still beat the S2 in that department?

if for some reason my moneytree starts sprouting, i will definitely get one....but i don't see that happening anytime soon....the difference in price...in the end this will be the same as with all DMF...5% better files (and most of the time not visible at all) at 10x the price....
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Graham Mitchell on March 06, 2009, 09:25:54 pm
Quote from: pss
to me the S2 looks like an amazing camera...a huge finder, large sensor, the whole thing built from the start for digital capture, superfast image processing....and with leica lenses...with shutters....what is not to like?

The main downside I see is that the lenses are not so fast: 24/2.8, 30/3.5 TS, 30-90/3.5, 35/2.5, 70/2.5, 100/3.5, 120/2.5, 180/3.5, 350/3.5

Is 100mm f3.5 fast enough for portraits?

Why are they not all leaf shutter, or at least offering leaf shutter as an option?

You could also argue that 45x30mm is not that large a sensor, and the 3:2 ratio is not to everyone's taste, but these are fairly minor points. Btw, I think it looks great!
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Panopeeper on March 06, 2009, 09:52:53 pm
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
- 14 bits (can be debated)
...
  - The hardcore MFDB shooters will want 16 bits and micro lenses less sensors (whether that is relevant or not is a different question)
The hardcore MFDB shooters would not miss anything; the 16bit depth is eye-wash only. For example Phase One owners can be happy that their software does not use more than 14bits, for the excess is garbage (but they don't know this, so they are happy believing that they are working with 16bit files).
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 06, 2009, 10:43:15 pm
Quote from: Panopeeper
The hardcore MFDB shooters would not miss anything; the 16bit depth is eye-wash only. For example Phase One owners can be happy that their software does not use more than 14bits, for the excess is garbage (but they don't know this, so they are happy believing that they are working with 16bit files).

That is indeed what reason dictates, supported by DxO Mark results, but this opinion can indeed not be spelled out around here, which is why I added a (can be debated) in parenthesis.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Panopeeper on March 06, 2009, 10:58:03 pm
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
That is indeed what reason dictates, supported by DxO Mark results, but this opinion can indeed not be spelled out around here, which is why I added a (can be debated) in parenthesis.
Regarding Phase One I can actually prove that.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: PaulT on March 06, 2009, 11:12:31 pm
The problem I run into with landscape work is having to put away the H3DII-39's when the weather turns bad and pick up the 1Ds. That is giving up a lot of file detail. In Ireland recently I spent more time with the Canon because the Hasselblad was at risk.

The Leica S2 gives me the weatherproofing of the 1Ds (hopefully) with the optics and file size of the Hasselblad. Exactly what I have been praying for for years! It was great to be able to shoot for 2 days in the pouring rain in Antarctica and never have to worry about my cameras- sadly I really missed having some of those images in 39mp glory.

To me the Leica optics, weatherproofing in a form factor that is easy to handle and use it a tremendous advantage. If it tests as well as my early demo with it and the reports on the optics hold up this will easily replace my Canon gear for the work that I do in tough climates.

PaulT
http://www.paultornaquindici.com (http://www.paultornaquindici.com)
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 07, 2009, 01:35:39 am
Quote from: Panopeeper
Regarding Phase One I can actually prove that.

I don't doubt that, but all the data in the world will just not change some people's opinion.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: BernardLanguillier on March 07, 2009, 01:46:42 am
Quote from: PaulT
The Leica S2 gives me the weatherproofing of the 1Ds (hopefully) with the optics and file size of the Hasselblad. Exactly what I have been praying for for years! It was great to be able to shoot for 2 days in the pouring rain in Antarctica and never have to worry about my cameras- sadly I really missed having some of those images in 39mp glory.

In case on want to save 20.000 Euros... you could also buy a pano head for your 1ds.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3662/3314742403_8f100eb4a1_o.jpg)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: mcfoto on March 07, 2009, 02:51:43 am
Hi
The S2 shoots @ 1.5 f/s which is TOO slow!!! The P65+ shoots @ 1.0 f/s as does Leaf backs. Some of the Leaf backs shoot faster than 1 f/s.
Denis
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Carsten W on March 07, 2009, 04:08:35 am
Quote from: foto-z
The main downside I see is that the lenses are not so fast: 24/2.8, 30/3.5 TS, 30-90/3.5, 35/2.5, 70/2.5, 100/3.5, 120/2.5, 180/3.5, 350/3.5

Is 100mm f3.5 fast enough for portraits?

Why are they not all leaf shutter, or at least offering leaf shutter as an option?

The 100 has variously been reported as f3.5 and f2.5. I hope that they actually make it an f2, but we'll see about that. Most of these lenses are the fastest in their classes. I am not sure what you want that is faster, apart from the 100? The only faster lenses are the 110/2 from F&H and the 100/2.2 from Hasselblad, as well as two discontinued lenses: the 80/2 from Contax and the 80/1.7 from Mamiya. Those are all in the 80-110 range, and the rest of Leica's lenses are faster than existing glass, I think...

Leaf shutters will be quite expensive, I suppose, and a 35/70/120/180 CS set should add enough flexibility for most uses. It is also not clear that the optical compromises required to place the shutter in the middle are, erm, savory for all focal lengths. Anyway, if there is sufficient demand, I suppose Leica will add more focal lengths and CS-spec lenses.

I think most portraitists don't shoot wide open anyway with MF, but at f5.6-f8?
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: eronald on March 07, 2009, 07:04:22 am
Anyone wanting to use this beast off a tripod or without flash is crazy.

I have a P45+ Mamiya combo; it is basically unusable even for outdoor portraits in the Paris winter light. Lack of depth of field and camera shake kill you, off a tripod. The D3x set at 1600 with a fast prime is usable and sharp anywhere. If you can set up a tripod, the P45+ cannot be beat, even a 10MP crop can be enlarged to 44".

The S2's form factor is nice. The camera design is nice. But the slow sensor is obsolete. Leica need to find themselves a better sensor, or that thing will stay on the shelf however good the lenses, which are supposed to be superb.

And, for the record, I have the same issues with my M8, it simply runs out of light all too frequently; camera shake is its worse enemy and if you don't care about shake then you aren't printing big or cropping, and then you don't need those sharp lenses. The M8's sweet spot is 13x18".

Edmund
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Graham Mitchell on March 07, 2009, 07:26:04 am
Quote from: carstenw
The 100 has variously been reported as f3.5 and f2.5. I hope that they actually make it an f2, but we'll see about that. Most of these lenses are the fastest in their classes. I am not sure what you want that is faster, apart from the 100? The only faster lenses are the 110/2 from F&H and the 100/2.2 from Hasselblad, as well as two discontinued lenses: the 80/2 from Contax and the 80/1.7 from Mamiya. Those are all in the 80-110 range, and the rest of Leica's lenses are faster than existing glass, I think...

Fastest in their class? I don't see it. Compare with these Rollei lenses (which include leaf shutters!): 40 f3.5, 50 f2.8, 80 f2, 110 f2, 180 f2.8

With a smaller sensor, you will need larger apertures to get the same narrow DOF as you would with a larger sensor, so the Leica would need to offer slightly faster lenses to keep up with a 645 sensor.

Quote from: carstenw
I think most portraitists don't shoot wide open anyway with MF, but at f5.6-f8?

Using my 150 @f4 I often wish for at least an extra stop of blur but I agree that's a matter of personal taste.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: ynp on March 07, 2009, 08:25:55 am
How The S2 will be used tethered? I understand that it won't have a live view mode. Ok, it's not very much needed for portraits and outdoors.
 
What about the regular  tethering ? Will it be the C1? Something Leica's home-brewed ?
What kind of ports does  the S2 have, USB-2?? Firewire???

Thanks,
Yevgeny
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Guy Mancuso on March 07, 2009, 09:26:01 am
Tethered is USB or Firewire 400 (I forgot to catch that part in the demo) with a special military grade input that you plug in and actually hold the cord and the camera can dangle down. Pretty cool but there is still debate on what tethered software they will use
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: ziocan on March 07, 2009, 12:17:11 pm
For what I remember from the S2 sample I handled, it shoots 1,5 frames per second, not the other way around.
this is fastest than any other MF camera. I think the specs actually says 1,7 frames per second.
The Af was really good for a MF.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: BJNY on March 07, 2009, 01:24:40 pm
Quote from: ynp
What kind of ports does  the S2 have, USB-2?? Firewire???

USB2 with lock
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: BJNY on March 07, 2009, 01:27:11 pm
Quote from: mcfoto
Hi
The S2 shoots @ 1.5 f/s which is TOO slow!!! The P65+ shoots @ 1.0 f/s as does Leaf backs. Some of the Leaf backs shoot faster than 1 f/s.
Denis

S2 is fastest at 1.5 frames per second

whereas P65+ is 1 second per frame
Leaf AFi-7 is 1.1 seconds per frame
Sinar eMotion75LV is 1.5 seconds per frame
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: ynp on March 07, 2009, 01:35:42 pm
Thank you!
Yevgeny
Quote from: BJNY
USB2 with lock
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Guy Mancuso on March 07, 2009, 01:39:22 pm
Quote from: BJNY
S2 is fastest at 1.5 frames per second

whereas P65+ is 1 second per frame
Leaf AFi-7 is 1.1 seconds per frame
Sinar eMotion75LV is 1.5 seconds per frame


Exactly Billy the way it is said gets folks mixed up.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Guy Mancuso on March 07, 2009, 01:41:28 pm
Quote from: BJNY
USB2 with lock


Thanks Billy I thought it was but was more interested in the plug in to body at the demo.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: BJNY on March 07, 2009, 01:52:07 pm
From David's blog (http://www.dfarkas.blogspot.com/).

The tethered setup uses high-speed USB with a unique cable. It is not the mini USB, but rather a round metal connector with a safety lock.
My Leica fellow plugged the cable in and dangled the camera and lens over the floor held up by the USB connector!
I nearly had a heart attack and he had a good laugh.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_xyB6bJuuc-0/SNm-...-h/L1020368.JPG (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_xyB6bJuuc-0/SNm-aT-f4gI/AAAAAAAAAKs/vJpGobF8btA/s1600-h/L1020368.JPG)

Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: BJNY on March 07, 2009, 02:06:22 pm
Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Pretty cool but there is still debate on what tethered software they will use

I believe Aperture tethers with cameras following Picture Transfer Protocol.

I'd be very happy if the S2 would tether into Lightroom.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Guy Mancuso on March 07, 2009, 02:34:20 pm
It can do LR with a hot folder I was told.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: KevinA on March 09, 2009, 09:27:53 am
Quote from: eronald
Anyone wanting to use this beast off a tripod or without flash is crazy.


Edmund

Do you mean the S2?
I think it would be ideal off tripod, I used to use the Pentax 67 handheld I was told that wasn't practical either.

Kevin.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: eronald on March 09, 2009, 09:33:11 am
Quote from: KevinA
Do you mean the S2?
I think it would be ideal off tripod, I used to use the Pentax 67 handheld I was told that wasn't practical either.

Kevin.

Well, time will tell. The sellers are always positive, the armchair critics negative. Let's see what the buyers say.

Edmund
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: BJL on March 09, 2009, 11:41:13 am
Quote from: eronald
Anyone wanting to use this beast off a tripod or without flash is crazy.
Maybe the truth is that to make full use of the resolution offered by 30MP+ sensors, or even 22MP+ sensors, you have to choose between very shallow DOF, abundant light (natural, flash etc.), or some kind of stabilization (tripod, monopod, in-lens, or in-body). The three 35mm format DSLR systems all offer the in-lens or in-body stabilization approaches, but no larger format system does so far. I wonder if Leica will go in that direction? I somewhat doubt it, but if so, I would bet on sensor-based rather than lens-based, to protect the "optical purity" of the Leica lens designs, and to offer it for all lenses without having to redesign them all.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: eronald on March 09, 2009, 12:04:42 pm
Quote from: BJL
Maybe the truth is that to make full use of the resolution offered by 30MP+ sensors, or even 22MP+ sensors, you have to choose between very shallow DOF, abundant light (natural, flash etc.), or some kind of stabilization (tripod, monopod, in-lens, or in-body). The three 35mm format DSLR systems all offer the in-lens or in-body stabilization approaches, but no larger format system does so far. I wonder if Leica will go in that direction? I somewhat doubt it, but if so, I would bet on sensor-based rather than lens-based, to protect the "optical purity" of the Leica lens designs, and to offer it for all lenses without having to redesign them all.

I was doing a portrait yesterday in *direct* setting sunlight. with the D3x set at 1600 ISO, and a 200mm unstabilized lens I had barely enough light for DOF and can still see some slight shake or movement blur on screen. This is ridiculous ; every time the resolution goes up one needs a higher shutter speed to freeze motion.

At this rate, only flash and tripod shooters will be able to get optimal results from hi-rez cameras. Or maybe camera stabilisation will be obligatory.

In any case, any MF camera that does not provide at least good 800 ISO is in my opinion not suitable for use at those stratospheric MP. 1600 ISO is the new 400 Fujichrome, baby better pack some, 6400 is Fujichrome 1600, so pushed but sometimes so necessary.

Edmund
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: JDBFreeheel on March 09, 2009, 12:17:42 pm
Quote from: eronald
Anyone wanting to use this beast off a tripod or without flash is crazy.

I have a P45+ Mamiya combo; it is basically unusable even for outdoor portraits in the Paris winter light.

Edmund

Edmund, while I respect your opinion, I think it cuts too wide of a swath.

I'd just point out that:

1) All users' experience will vary.  Some photographers feel fine with their MF kits hand held in certain situations and some do not.  Perhaps it's a skill thing, or a technique thing, or just what you're looking to get out of the shot.  But, just because you choose to not use a MF kit hand held does not make others crazy to do so.

2) It also depends on your work.  For a long exposure landscape, no I wouldn't consider using my kit or the S2 hand held.  That's silly.  But, that's also not their market.  For situational location-based shots, with shutter speeds varying, I think it would probably be fine.  Photographers have long been shooting hand held on location, long before the current technology and with certainly 'grainier' films in the past.  My hunch is that this system (if it is ever adopted by certain pros) will find itself splitting time between tripods and hand held situations.

3) Just because you are a fan of a particular kit (Nikon D3x in your case) doesn't make it the perfect tool for everyone else.  It appears that it's a fantastic tool for your use; but there's no need to dog other systems simply because it doesn't seem to fit your style. Frankly I don't need everything that the D3x has, and prefer the workflow and methodical style of my MF kits.I'm used to it, and don't want to move to a different system.  Does that make my systems better, maybe not for others, but for me, yes.  There are things that the D3x does better than my kits and things that I feel my kits do better than the D3x.  

4) Lastly, I think we need to wait until we have production models in the hands of pros to determine it's value to a wide spectrum of users.  Who knows.  It may be the greatest thing since sliced bread, or a total bust.  But until we get past the Leica reps' opinions and promises and all of our speculation, we honestly have no idea what the true output and support will be like.  

-Josh
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: ziocan on March 09, 2009, 12:42:02 pm
Quote from: JDBFreeheel
Edmund, while I respect your opinion, I think it cuts too wide of a swath.

I'd just point out that:

1) All users' experience will vary.  Some photographers feel fine with their MF kits hand held in certain situations and some do not.  Perhaps it's a skill thing, or a technique thing, or just what you're looking to get out of the shot.  But, just because you choose to not use a MF kit hand held does not make others crazy to do so.



-Josh
I agree.
I remember shooting models with the Mamiya RZ hand held with 100/200 iso film on the street of Paris or in Soho which light wise is the same. not the more comfortable thing to do but doable.
Shooting with an AFD or an Hasselblad on a DB at 100/200 is far less challenging and definitively very doable. By the way, they still sells monopods.
Though today, unless there are some special requirements, I would likely do those kind of shoots with a DSLR, preferably Sony with image stabilization for every lens.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: BJL on March 10, 2009, 10:14:43 am
Quote from: eronald
I was doing a portrait yesterday in *direct* setting sunlight. with the D3x set at 1600 ISO, and a 200mm unstabilized lens I had barely enough light for DOF and can still see some slight shake or movement blur on screen.
What shutter speed were you using that required ISO 1600?
What shutter speed do you think would have been needed to avoid any "slight shake or movement blur on screen"?
By "on-screen" do you mean at 100%, so about 100PPI?
If so, how doe the blur look when the image is displayed at a size more relevant to printing, like 180PPI or higher?

But the trend you see is clear: high res. has always needed a tripod or other stabilization or very bright light, and though the greatly improved sensitivity of electronic sensors over film has moves the barrier up, the increasing res. of high end digital is keeping this true.

Also, it is pleasing to read a working photographer talk about the realities of working stopped down for adequate DOF, for balance to the perennial performance comparisons which effectively assume the use of fast lenses wide open.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Doug Peterson on March 10, 2009, 11:00:12 am
Quote from: BJNY
S2 is fastest at 1.5 frames per second

whereas P65+ is 1 second per frame
Leaf AFi-7 is 1.1 seconds per frame
Sinar eMotion75LV is 1.5 seconds per frame

Hate to be a buzz kill, but what you mean is "if the S2 were currently a production product it would be the fastest production medium format system".

I think it's kind of silly to assume that neither Leaf, Phase, Sinar, nor Hasselblad will have any new products released by the time the S2 is shipping in any real quantities.

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Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: BJNY on March 10, 2009, 11:30:59 am
Doug,

I was merely illustrating frames per second vs. seconds per frame,

nothing else.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: mtomalty on March 10, 2009, 12:29:56 pm
Quote from: eronald
I was doing a portrait yesterday in *direct* setting sunlight. with the D3x set at 1600 ISO, and a 200mm unstabilized lens I had barely enough light for DOF and can still see some slight shake or movement blur on screen. This is ridiculous ; every time the resolution goes up one needs a higher shutter speed to freeze motion.

It seems, Edmund, that perhaps there's more unstabilized than just your 200mm lens.

As a scientist, maybe you could provide a few more details that could help isolate the movement blur you are seeing.
ISO 1600 is a moot point if you are shooting handheld and need f22 to get the depth of field you require if that aperture gives you a shutter speed of 1/60.

Which 200mm lens did you use?  Currently Nikon only offers 1-the 200 f2.0 which is stabilized.

Among other things, I routinely shoot 15-17 year old elite minor league hockey games (indoor) with a 1Ds3 and a non-stabilized Canon 200 1.8.
I usually require iso 1600-3200 to squeeze out 1/250 @ f 2.0 in most poorly lit municipal arenas and even at that,assuming I nail the focus, I can easily
define fiber details in skate laces and stitching in fabric when viewed at 100% so, for my money, your issues are rooted in something different than
sensor resolution numbers.

Mark
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: James R Russell on March 10, 2009, 12:42:40 pm
Quote from: dougpetersonci
Hate to be a buzz kill, but what you mean is "if the S2 were currently a production product it would be the fastest production medium format system".

I think it's kind of silly to assume that neither Leaf, Phase, Sinar, nor Hasselblad will have any new products released by the time the S2 is shipping in any real quantities.

__________________


The most asked question I hear from photographers is will Nikon or Canon make a medium format sized camera.  I think all of us know they can and obviously both have made optics for about everything, so making a lens line large enough to cover a 645 frame wouldn't be a leap.  Actually I don't think anyone believes Canon or Nikon can't build any camera they want, if the market is large enough for profit.

What is interesting is nobody asks about a Canon or Nikon because they dislike the image quality from their digital backs, they just want the same usability and ease in medium format they have with their dslrs and the real truth is the dslrs have gotten much better and much easier to use, while medium format still struggles with in camera processing, readable lcd's and in a lot of cases software development.

The Leica seems interesting, but it also seems one step back even before introduction.  Yes Leica glass can be nice, (also it can be problematic when the quality control falls down which happened a lot with the M8), but I seriously wonder if the world is really waiting for a low iso ccd camera with semi slow lenses for two or three times the cost of a d3x or Canon 1ds3?

The Leica seems more of an enthusiasts camera than a working photographers tool, but I guess they will sell I just wonder how many.

If Leica does aim the S2 at the professional it needs to get past the usual medium format business model of slow deadlines and wait and see product.  It must come out on the shelves working, with full lenses, software and in rentals or it will be like the HY6.  A nice camera that becomes buried in a niche market.

Now on the flip side of this, if Leica had annouced that this camera had a 920,000 pixel lcd, would tether to robust software, went to a real clean 800 iso, looked like film out of the camera and had fast lenses all in the F2 minimum range I would take a hard look.  Actually I guess I'm saying I'd like a d3x with a leica logo and a larger frame size, or even better put a pentax 6x7 with an endless roll of film.  Saphire glass doesn't really turn me on.

Or even better if Leica had annouced an M series with a cmos sensor or 17 to 20 mpx, and autofocus lenses, I'd write the check today.

Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: rogan on March 10, 2009, 07:28:10 pm
Quote from: James R Russell
The most asked question I hear from photographers is will Nikon or Canon make a medium format sized camera.  I think all of us know they can and obviously both have made optics for about everything, so making a lens line large enough to cover a 645 frame wouldn't be a leap.  Actually I don't think anyone believes Canon or Nikon can't build any camera they want, if the market is large enough for profit.

What is interesting is nobody asks about a Canon or Nikon because they dislike the image quality from their digital backs, they just want the same usability and ease in medium format they have with their dslrs and the real truth is the dslrs have gotten much better and much easier to use, while medium format still struggles with in camera processing, readable lcd's and in a lot of cases software development.

The Leica seems interesting, but it also seems one step back even before introduction.  Yes Leica glass can be nice, (also it can be problematic when the quality control falls down which happened a lot with the M8), but I seriously wonder if the world is really waiting for a low iso ccd camera with semi slow lenses for two or three times the cost of a d3x or Canon 1ds3?

The Leica seems more of an enthusiasts camera than a working photographers tool, but I guess they will sell I just wonder how many.

If Leica does aim the S2 at the professional it needs to get past the usual medium format business model of slow deadlines and wait and see product.  It must come out on the shelves working, with full lenses, software and in rentals or it will be like the HY6.  A nice camera that becomes buried in a niche market.

Now on the flip side of this, if Leica had annouced that this camera had a 920,000 pixel lcd, would tether to robust software, went to a real clean 800 iso, looked like film out of the camera and had fast lenses all in the F2 minimum range I would take a hard look.  Actually I guess I'm saying I'd like a d3x with a leica logo and a larger frame size, or even better put a pentax 6x7 with an endless roll of film.  Saphire glass doesn't really turn me on.

Or even better if Leica had annouced an M series with a cmos sensor or 17 to 20 mpx, and autofocus lenses, I'd write the check today.
James,
 Keep in mind this will be the fastest mf line of lenses ever made(top to bottom) To me the deal breaker is multi point af. Nikon or Canon comes out with mf, I write a check today. Otherwise I will wait and see
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: archivue on March 10, 2009, 10:39:34 pm
i still read D3X everywhere... i've test it with the 24 PC-E for architecture shots... nothing to compare with a 22MP MFDB and rodenstock digital 35 !

So there is some stuff that a D3X can't handle !

I'm looking forward to see how the S2 will perform with the shift lens.

But anyway, i won't go that way... i don't like the 2:3 ratio, and the S2 can't be used fot stiching.

i'm still using a 5DII for now with TS-E and Oly Shift lenses... and looking forward for the same live view on a MFDB...

Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: dfarkas on March 10, 2009, 10:57:00 pm
Quote from: archivue
i still read D3X everywhere... i've test it with the 24 PC-E for architecture shots... nothing to compare with a 22MP MFDB and rodenstock digital 35 !

So there is some stuff that a D3X can't handle !

I'm looking forward to see how the S2 will perform with the shift lens.

But anyway, i won't go that way... i don't like the 2:3 ratio, and the S2 can't be used fot stiching.

i'm still using a 5DII for now with TS-E and Oly Shift lenses... and looking forward for the same live view on a MFDB...

Why do you say the S2 can't be used for stitching?
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: dfarkas on March 10, 2009, 11:16:45 pm
Quote from: dougpetersonci
Hate to be a buzz kill, but what you mean is "if the S2 were currently a production product it would be the fastest production medium format system".

I think it's kind of silly to assume that neither Leaf, Phase, Sinar, nor Hasselblad will have any new products released by the time the S2 is shipping in any real quantities.

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Hey, Doug. I'm not so sure it's silly. The S2 prototype currently shoots real DNG files at 1.5 fps. Show me a Phase, Leaf, Sinar, of Hassy product (in production, just announced, or working prototype) that does the same.

When the S2 starts shipping in late summer, I think the only major change in the MFD landscape will be more sales promotions, not new products. So many companies are in panic/survival mode in this economy (not just in the photo segment, obviously). R&D budgets are being slashed, valued personnel are being let go, and future projects are being put on hold.  With massive price cuts and/or crazy value-added promotions to move existing inventory, why would any of the major players try to introduce a new top dog to market? Phase just came out at Photokina with the P65+, Hassy with the H3DII-50/60, Leaf with the AFI-II 10. These units just started shipping recently. I can't imagine that anything newer will come along in the next 5-6 months.

David
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: James R Russell on March 11, 2009, 02:52:25 am
Quote from: rogan
James,
 Keep in mind this will be the fastest mf line of lenses ever made(top to bottom) To me the deal breaker is multi point af. Nikon or Canon comes out with mf, I write a check today. Otherwise I will wait and see


I think this is a bold move for Leica and one that should be applauded.  The idea of new system is almost unheard of in today's time and well, I think it's brave.

And since the camera is not out in final spec., none of us really know what it will do, though I know from a working standpoint if it's marketed to professionals and not well off amateurs then the camera will have to come out hitting on all cylinders, with the lens line in place, the software stable . . . . . .  all the stuff we've all been talking about for years.

In fact I hope all the camera companies do well, because it is a reflection of our industry.

I still think at some point medium format needs a wake up call.  Obviously that market knows what most of us have been asking for and for a variety of reasons get close, but never really there.

Maybe the Leica will be the camera to break that mold.  I hope so, but things mentioned like tethering is still in the works does make me wonder if they are making a camera for me, or a surgeon.

Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: mcfoto on March 11, 2009, 03:25:42 am
To me the let down with the S2 is the 30x45 chip. The P65 is 41x55 ( approx). Also with the Phase/Mamiya alliance why not revisit the ZD camera. Pot a new generation chip (36x48) which camera already has ( Dalsa 22 MP )  & let Phase put there knowledge into the existing body with a 3" screen. There is a large  existing lens lineup with C1 Pro SW. Even though I don't own the ZD camera anymore I still miss its ease of use even with the limitations. It is a 2004 design & a 2009 upgrade with Phase could make this camera really work. But in this economy I am not holding my breath.
Denis
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Smallcooter on March 11, 2009, 04:39:47 am
Quote from: James R Russell
Maybe the Leica will be the camera to break that mold.  I hope so, but things mentioned like tethering is still in the works does make me wonder if they are making a camera for me, or a surgeon.

Given Leica's track record, they will say one thing and mean another, meaning that Leica say that the S2 is aimed at courting professionals but hope to sell it to surgeons. It is somewhat like a Breitling or a Panerai; association with fighter pilots and Navy commandos but who is really sporting them? The surgeon market has more disposable income, is bigger and gentler on the S2 than professionals.

Splitting hairs, would one consider a 30mmx45mm chip Medium Format? That gives it a diagonal of 54mm, not quite Medium Format, in my humble estimation. So the S2 lenses aren't really that 'fast'.

Let us wait and see what happens with the S2 in late summer.

Schmal.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: tho_mas on March 11, 2009, 05:11:47 am
Quote from: dfarkas
Why do you say the S2 can't be used for stitching?
not stitching based on panning a panorama head but stitching based on the shift of the DB (or the lens) within the larger image circle of LF lenses when using a tech camera.
or are you saying that the TS lens will be able to be shifted in four directions? more than, say, 10mm?

Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: georgl on March 11, 2009, 05:20:54 am
They already showed some pictures (on LFI and on screen during presentations) and despite color/artifacts (prototype, no RAW-profiles) sharpness was definitely on par with 39MP-backs + the very best Rodenstock/Schneider-lenses. This quality is simply in a different league than 35mm.
The MTFs also look not too different so this makes sense. In fact, the S-lenses seem to reach the quality of the best stopped down MF-SLR-lenses even at open aperture! Open aperture f2.5 is really fully usable, which cannot be said about MF-lenses or Nikon/Canon-glass with their 20+MP-beasts. Remember that these are the central-shutter-lenses, faster lenses will follow (although depth of field will be crucial).

The CCD is an entirely new design (first used in the H3DII-50) and because of the microlenses, the S2 will be about one effective stop faster, it has about the size of Prosumer-Full-Frame-SLRs, it's extremely rugged and quite fast by MF-standards (no DSPs but a custom-made ASIC as a processor) and of course the lenses are unique. MFDBs with microlenses (33x44mm -> 31MP: H3DII-31, P30...) are professionally usable up to 400/800ASA while a D3X goes about one stop faster (were talking about pro-standards) so it will be quite interesting to see what the new CCDs (the 31MP-backs use the previous, 4 year old Kodak-CCD-architecture) are capable of.  
Internal processing and good looking JPGs will most likely be superior with the Nikon/Canons, but hopefully the S2-JPGs won't look as horrible as my M8-JPGs (6-8MP-DSLR-class...).

It's not going to be a super fast press-camera, but an interesting alternative for those who are not happy with the ergonomics of MF or IQ of 35mm.

Of course 30x45 is far from 645-full-frame, but MF is still mostly 36x48mm (which is more a different aspect-ratio than a different sensor-size) and bigger formats make some lenses extremely difficult to design (has anbody handled MF-zooms?).

We should be thankful that somebody invested this much money in an entirely new system, it won't be the pefect tool for everybody, but having a choice is always nice!
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Graham Mitchell on March 11, 2009, 05:46:19 am
Quote from: georgl
Open aperture f2.5 is really fully usable, which cannot be said about MF-lenses or Nikon/Canon-glass with their 20+MP-beasts.

I don't agree. All but one of my lenses are sharp wide open.

Quote from: georgl
Remember that these are the central-shutter-lenses, faster lenses will follow (although depth of field will be crucial).

Only the 35, 70, 120 and 180 were announced as central-shutter lenses. The rest are designed for focal plane shutter only.

Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: rainer_v on March 11, 2009, 06:32:42 am
i believe in the S2 and in their qualities after i have tried it out. at the moments i hardly doubt that this moment will come .....
and after the last years of leica products, their flaws and their service i hardly doubt that the quality will convince me.
all this although having been a loyal long year leica user in the film days.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Carsten W on March 11, 2009, 08:52:09 am
Quote from: James R Russell
Now on the flip side of this, if Leica had annouced that this camera had a 920,000 pixel lcd, would tether to robust software, went to a real clean 800 iso, looked like film out of the camera and had fast lenses all in the F2 minimum range I would take a hard look.  Actually I guess I'm saying I'd like a d3x with a leica logo and a larger frame size, or even better put a pentax 6x7 with an endless roll of film.  Saphire glass doesn't really turn me on.

The screen will have 460.000 dots (I presume you mean 920.000 dots, like the new Nikons, i.e. they count R, G and B separately), which is pretty close to the best of the new Nikons, and much better than any of the older screens. I believe that the ISO 800 will be quite usable, from what Leica is saying, but I guess we will have to wait and see what they deliver. I am not sure how many MF f2 lenses are really needed. If they made a 100/2 it might be enough.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: georgl on March 11, 2009, 11:45:41 am
"I don't agree. All but one of my lenses are sharp wide open."

What lenses do you mean? I know many people like the rendition e.g. of the Planar 110 wide open, but that's not what I would consider as "sharp" compared to the power our sensors have. Just take a look at the MTFs, outside of the center many of these lenses barely reach 30% contrast at 40lp/mm, that's visible. I also loved the 80mm Planar of my beloved 501CM, but it was blown away by my Summilux Asph at open aperture (f1,4 vs. f2.8)!

The presented S-lenses are just "normal speed", faster lenses will come in the future (that's why also the standard focal length is just f2.5).

I wonder why they decided for the 460k-LCD?
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Graham Mitchell on March 11, 2009, 11:56:37 am
Quote from: georgl
"I don't agree. All but one of my lenses are sharp wide open."

What lenses do you mean?

The Rollei lenses I have: 40mm f3.5, 80mm f2.8, 150mm f4, 180mm f2.8. The 80mm f2 is not sharp like the others.

Here's a 100% crop from the 80mm f2.8 lens wide open:
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Guy Mancuso on March 11, 2009, 12:13:11 pm
Quote from: georgl
"I don't agree. All but one of my lenses are sharp wide open."

What lenses do you mean? I know many people like the rendition e.g. of the Planar 110 wide open, but that's not what I would consider as "sharp" compared to the power our sensors have. Just take a look at the MTFs, outside of the center many of these lenses barely reach 30% contrast at 40lp/mm, that's visible. I also loved the 80mm Planar of my beloved 501CM, but it was blown away by my Summilux Asph at open aperture (f1,4 vs. f2.8)!

The presented S-lenses are just "normal speed", faster lenses will come in the future (that's why also the standard focal length is just f2.5).

I wonder why they decided for the 460k-LCD?


My guess power and more power going into the processing engine for faster speeds. 3 inch LCD do take power, running a lower pixel count on the LCD would just take less juice than a higher one. Actually in reality it looked pretty darn good but I would like to see it outside in the sun under real world viewing. I think it is the same pixel count as the IPhone
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: hankg on March 11, 2009, 04:20:53 pm
I really think Leica would like to break out of the retro collector box and get back into the mainstream of photography. I can see why they would choose to design the S2 as a quasi MF design considering the competition and price structure in the 35mm DSLR market.

But I just don't see anyone taking a $20 - 30,000 flyer on a brand new system with no track record in this sort of economy. Can Leica afford to stock rental houses and supply the kind of support to make a go of it? As nice as the S2 may be I don't see it making it in the current environment. Maybe if they got it out at the height of the boom it would have had a chance. I expect by the time the economy recovers there will be a lot fewer camera companies and a lot fewer pro photographers. I think safety and security, getting more for less rather then being on the cutting edge or having the latest and greatest is going to be the predominant mode for the near future.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: lisa_r on March 11, 2009, 04:53:22 pm
Quote from: archivue
i still read D3X everywhere... i've test it with the 24 PC-E for architecture shots... nothing to compare with a 22MP MFDB and rodenstock digital 35 !

So there is some stuff that a D3X can't handle !

I'm looking forward to see how the S2 will perform with the shift lens.

What I think is funny is that everyone is talking about the D3x being the pinnacle, but apparently (according to my NY dealers) no one is buying it! Great camera, lusty feature set, flexible, MF-like shadow noise, billions of lenses in rental, and hardly any takers at $8K. What does this say about your S2 launch this year? (at 3-4 (?) times the price for the system and nothing in rental...)

According to these pro dealers (fotocare, calumet, etc., etc.) everyone is buying the 5D2. They can not keep them in stock. So the somewhat handicapped 5D2 (i.e. iffy focus, iffy weather sealing, etc.) is eating everyone's lunch. Even though it is not the ultimate camera. Here's what it is: it's pretty good, and it's cheap. Just what the accountant ordered.

Again, this does not bode well for the S2 launch. We shall see.

p.s. was there even a single pro in the world asking for a saphire lcd cover and was willing to pay extra for it? I think Canon replaces scratched LCD covers for around $10.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: eronald on March 11, 2009, 05:19:01 pm
The 5D was the killer camera, I think almost everyone on this Medium Format forum (well, 50%) owned one without admitting to it.

Edmund

Quote from: lisa_r
What I think is funny is that everyone is talking about the D3x being the pinnacle, but apparently (according to my NY dealers) no one is buying it! Great camera, lusty feature set, flexible, MF-like shadow noise, billions of lenses in rental, and hardly any takers at $8K. What does this say about your S2 launch this year? (at 3-4 (?) times the price for the system and nothing in rental...)

According to these pro dealers (fotocare, calumet, etc., etc.) everyone is buying the 5D2. They can not keep them in stock. So the somewhat handicapped 5D2 (i.e. iffy focus, iffy weather sealing, etc.) is eating everyone's lunch. Even though it is not the ultimate camera. Here's what it is: it's pretty good, and it's cheap. Just what the accountant ordered.

Again, this does not bode well for the S2 launch. We shall see.

p.s. was there even a single pro in the world asking for a saphire lcd cover and was willing to pay extra for it? I think Canon replaces scratched LCD covers for around $10.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Carsten W on March 11, 2009, 05:21:28 pm
Quote from: eronald
The 5D was the killer camera, I think almost everyone on this Medium Format forum (well, 50%) owned one without admitting to it.

Edmund

I owned one, but after a few months, I found myself unhappy with it and sold it. The 5D2 is not even on the list of cameras I would like to be given. I much prefer the A900, in spite of its limited high ISO.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: lisa_r on March 11, 2009, 05:33:24 pm
Quote from: carstenw
I owned one, but after a few months, I found myself unhappy with it and sold it. The 5D2 is not even on the list of cameras I would like to be given. I much prefer the A900, in spite of its limited high ISO.


Yes, everybody know that even for $2700 the 5D2 is not The Ultimate Camera. Question is, are you willing to buy an $8000 D3x instead? (apparently not many people are) How about a $30,000 S2 instead??
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: eronald on March 11, 2009, 06:05:18 pm
Quote from: lisa_r
Yes, everybody know that even for $2700 the 5D2 is not The Ultimate Camera. Question is, are you willing to buy an $8000 D3x instead? (apparently not many people are) How about a $30,000 S2 instead??

Question is why everyone on this forum isn't already buying a 5DII. It costs less than most MF lenses

Edmund
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: mcfoto on March 11, 2009, 06:29:25 pm
Hi
When it comes to the 5D I owned one & now have replaced it with the 5DII. I was talking to a CPS person @ Canon & we got talking about the sales world wide. The 5D sold about 300,000 units while the 1DsIII is expected to do 25,000 units. If the S2 comes in @ 15-25 K (USD), I don't think they will sell that many. The MFD market ( Hasselblad, Mamiya/Phase, Sinar ) sells about 6000 units all up each year. No surprise about F&H. also with MFD backs coming up used & demos @ great prices, I think the S2 will have a small market. I just got an email from Leaf USA selling off demo backs at great prices. For example a 54S ( 6669.00 ) & 75S ( 12229 ) very fast backs with either a M, H or universal mount. Last year a good friend of mine bought a used Aptus 22 for his Mamiya  for $9900.00 on eBay, the 54S is the same back except it captures at .90 f/s.
Denis
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: lisa_r on March 11, 2009, 08:13:25 pm
Quote from: eronald
Question is why everyone on this forum isn't already buying a 5DII. It costs less than most MF lenses

Edmund

Most of them probably already have ;-)

Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: James R Russell on March 12, 2009, 01:06:52 am
Quote from: lisa_r
What I think is funny is that everyone is talking about the D3x being the pinnacle, but apparently (according to my NY dealers) no one is buying it! Great camera, lusty feature set, flexible, MF-like shadow noise, billions of lenses in rental, and hardly any takers at $8K. What does this say about your S2 launch this year? (at 3-4 (?) times the price for the system and nothing in rental...)

According to these pro dealers (fotocare, calumet, etc., etc.) everyone is buying the 5D2. They can not keep them in stock.


Even if business is still pretty good, the financial news just throws you off new purchases, other than the obvious ones like self promotion.

I'd like to get the D3x and last year would have done so without giving it much thought, but now everyone pauses for a moment.

After all I am sure most photographers in the D3x range already have a Canon 1ds2, or 3 and you think, well might wait just a little while longer.  

Then there is the thought that Nikon will probably introduce a D700x or something like that for 1/2 the price and waiting becomes easier.

I did buy a 5d2, for video and took it out of the box once found out you couldn't manually set the controls without adding a set of zeiss lenses and put it back in the box, ready for return.

Now if Nikon had made the D3x with real functioning hi def video, automatic sensor cleaning I would have bought it straight away as the samples I have seen are impressive.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: billthecat on March 12, 2009, 01:20:31 am
I got a 5D2. I just use a little tape on the lens contacts to set fix the f stop. It would be trouble if you like to keep changing the f stop. I've been very happy with the video feature though Canon really should add more control.

Bill
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: lisa_r on March 12, 2009, 09:33:06 am
Quote from: James R Russell
and put it back in the box, ready for return.

Now if Nikon had made the D3x with real functioning hi def video, automatic sensor cleaning I would have bought it straight away as the samples I have seen are impressive.

Exactly, the bar has been raised: for their $2700, people want nothing less than what the Canon has got: 1080p and 22mp (plus sensor cleaning, etc., etc.) Now, what will they want for a $30K DSLR?
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: georgl on March 12, 2009, 05:18:45 pm
@foto-z

The question is: in which IQ will the smaller sensor + the excellent S-lenses with their MTFs result?

I think the answer can be found in IQ of technical cameras with the specialized Digitar & HR-lenses, it's not really absolute resolution but contrast and "clarity" due to the lack of optical aberrations ("micro-contrast", "3D-look"...). Comparing good lenses like your Rollei or todays Mamiya/Fuji-lenses will of course not result in horrible soft images like with 35mm-plastic-zooms...
My Zeiss 80mm was of course also usable with f2.8, but outside the center it got more crisp and clearer when stopping down, an effect that will most likely be very similar to the practical results of the performance of the S-lenses.
Here is a corner-crop of my M8 + Summilux 35 Asph f1.4 vs. f2.8 - that's about the difference in contrast the MTFs show between the S-lenses and "normal" SLR-MF-lenses.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: pss on March 12, 2009, 06:11:35 pm
Quote from: James R Russell
I'd like to get the D3x and last year would have done so without giving it much thought, but now everyone pauses for a moment.

After all I am sure most photographers in the D3x range already have a Canon 1ds2, or 3 and you think, well might wait just a little while longer.  

Then there is the thought that Nikon will probably introduce a D700x or something like that for 1/2 the price and waiting becomes easier.

Now if Nikon had made the D3x with real functioning hi def video, automatic sensor cleaning I would have bought it straight away as the samples I have seen are impressive.


my thoughts exactly....if it wasn't for everything said above i would own a dx3 right now.....but it wasn't available when i bought the dsIII and the video of the 5DII was way too much fun to turn down....especially for the price....and since prices are high on the list these days.....the S2 will remain on my wishlist of objects or funtools.....

i still believe the dsIV will be very similar to the S2, a larger sensor with new lenses....coming late this year...and nikon won't be far behind, but too far for me, i will already own the canon....again....
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Nemo on March 23, 2009, 07:11:43 am
Quote from: foto-z
I don't agree. All but one of my lenses are sharp wide open.

Yes but, look at these MTF graphs:

http://www.s.leica-camera.com/leica-s-system (http://www.s.leica-camera.com/leica-s-system)

LEICA SUMMARIT-S 35 mm F/2.5 ASPH. CS:
http://www.s.leica-camera.com/summarit-s-1...-35-mm-asph-cs/ (http://www.s.leica-camera.com/summarit-s-1-2-5-35-mm-asph-cs/)

LEICA SUMMARIT-S 70 mm F/2.5 ASPH. CS:
http://www.s.leica-camera.com/summarit-s-1...-70-mm-asph-cs/ (http://www.s.leica-camera.com/summarit-s-1-2-5-70-mm-asph-cs/)

LEICA APO-MACRO-SUMMARIT-S 120 mm F/2.5 CS:
http://www.s.leica-camera.com/apo-macro-su...-2-5-120-mm-cs/ (http://www.s.leica-camera.com/apo-macro-summarit-s-1-2-5-120-mm-cs/)

LEICA APO-ELMAR-S 180 mm F/3.5 CS :
http://www.s.leica-camera.com/apo-elmar-s-1-3-5-180-mm-cs/ (http://www.s.leica-camera.com/apo-elmar-s-1-3-5-180-mm-cs/)

Those lenses aren't "sharp" in a common sense. They are just outstanding, even for smaller format lenses!


Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Nemo on March 23, 2009, 07:19:34 am
Quote from: georgl
@foto-z

The question is: in which IQ will the smaller sensor + the excellent S-lenses with their MTFs result?

I think the answer can be found in IQ of technical cameras with the specialized Digitar & HR-lenses, it's not really absolute resolution but contrast and "clarity" due to the lack of optical aberrations ("micro-contrast", "3D-look"...). Comparing good lenses like your Rollei or todays Mamiya/Fuji-lenses will of course not result in horrible soft images like with 35mm-plastic-zooms...
My Zeiss 80mm was of course also usable with f2.8, but outside the center it got more crisp and clearer when stopping down, an effect that will most likely be very similar to the practical results of the performance of the S-lenses.
Here is a corner-crop of my M8 + Summilux 35 Asph f1.4 vs. f2.8 - that's about the difference in contrast the MTFs show between the S-lenses and "normal" SLR-MF-lenses.


It is very difficult to preserve contrast and resolution from the axis to the corners when the format is large. Leica did it for the new S lenses. You can see 40 lp/mm MTF higher than 70% in a 28mm equivalent (35mm format) lens (35mm Summarit) WIDE OPEN!

(http://www.s.leica-camera.com/assets/Uploads/System/Objektive/FirstPackage/35/tabelle01.jpg)

Remember the format is much bigger than 24x36mm.

The standard 70mm is very uniform, from center to corners...

(http://www.s.leica-camera.com/assets/Uploads/System/Objektive/FirstPackage/70/tabelle01.jpg)

The APO 120mm lens is just unbelievable, wide open!

(http://www.s.leica-camera.com/assets/Uploads/System/Objektive/FirstPackage/120/tabelle01.jpg)

... and the same goes for the APO 180mm... 85% contrast for 40lp/mm on axis, wide open!

(http://www.s.leica-camera.com/assets/Uploads/System/Objektive/FirstPackage/180/tabelle01.jpg)

Put those lenses on perspective...


Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: dalethorn on March 23, 2009, 05:15:43 pm
Quote from: georgl
@foto-z
.....
Here is a corner-crop of my M8 + Summilux 35 Asph f1.4 vs. f2.8 - that's about the difference in contrast the MTFs show between the S-lenses and "normal" SLR-MF-lenses.

That's a pretty big difference. Hard to believe there's no exposure factor here.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: georgl on March 26, 2009, 06:15:40 am
It's a horrible picture and they're not even perfectly sharp - it's just about the difference of these two, especially regarding contrast.
Without seeing the f2.8 you wouldn't notice the contrast loss as easy, especially not when fine-tuning it in post. These lenses are hq, they don't become mushy or produce horrible abberations like "plastic-35mm-lenses" (this image was made on a tour with a friend and a 500€ f1.4 Sigma, it didn't reach the f1.4-Leica-quality at f5.6) mentioned, a similar behaviour to the expensive MF-lenses a few stops slower.

Just because they don't look horrible, doesn't mean that the outresolve the sensor or better lenses couldn't produce superior results, users of technical lenses noticed that (even without tine 6micron-photosites). It will also affect the overall quality of S2-files, it not just about MPs - we'll see

As far as I know, they just finishing the first pre-production-S2s (a German magazine already announced an "extensive test" in April) - until now we've just seen the very first prototypes from September (2 of them were not disassembled and shown on the following shows).
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Professional on March 26, 2009, 08:17:24 am
I will buy 5D II if i don't have 1Ds MarkIII.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Nemo on March 28, 2009, 05:03:30 pm
Quote from: georgl
As far as I know, they just finishing the first pre-production-S2s (a German magazine already announced an "extensive test" in April) - until now we've just seen the very first prototypes from September (2 of them were not disassembled and shown on the following shows).

Yes, I think they have finished the pre-production units, and now they are testing, refining and arranging final serial production.

R.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Nemo on April 18, 2009, 04:33:01 am
Preliminary observations of Michael Reichmann:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...as/s2-pre.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/s2-pre.shtml)

.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Nemo on April 18, 2009, 05:22:12 am
Michael Reichmann asks for Leica lenses for Mamiya mount:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...as/s2-pre.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/s2-pre.shtml)

Quote
Memo to Leica: How about making these lenses in Mamiya / Phase One mount? This will open up a huge additional market for your lenses and likely won't impact your S2 body sales in any significant way. I write this out of pure selfishness, because I'd really love to use your lenses, but like many photographers already have a camera investment (or two) that might get in the way. Anyhow, buying great new lenses is a photographers sacred duty, isn't it?

... but Joe Holmes explains shy this is undesirable for Leica:

http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html (http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html)

http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html (http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html)

An integrated body produced by the same manufacturer who makes the lenses is the best solution.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Nick Rains on April 18, 2009, 07:35:07 am
Quote from: John Schweikert
Have patience. A firmware update is slated for sometime in April for the 5DII which, while not openly stated, will most likely add manual controls for video.


OT but where does this info come from? I have just published a formal quote from Canon Australia saying that this is not happening.

“Once in movie mode, the camera will control
everything, including shutter speeds, aperture and
ISO. Only exposure compensation is possible. When
shooting video, aperture control is not possible in order
to prevent the recording of aperture-related sounds.
Because of this, exposure control uses a wide range
of ISO and shutter speeds. The shutter speeds are also
controlled in such way as to provide natural-looking,
flicker-free movies. There is no firmware upgrade for
this as we do not believe it is an issue”.

Straight from the horses mouth as it were...
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: BJNY on April 18, 2009, 07:37:18 am
Quote from: Nick Rains
OT but where does this info come from?


www.canonrumors.com

and

www.cinema5D.com
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Nick Rains on April 18, 2009, 07:40:30 am
Quote from: jsch
Perhaps you already know and it is inconvenient for you: You can save the exposure values with the *-button and set in the menu the metering timer up to 30 minutes. The the camera doesn't change the settings during the take. But it is easy to forget to press the *-button.

Best,
Johannes

Yes you can 'lock' the exposure but you cannot choose the settings in the first place.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: doncody on April 18, 2009, 03:45:11 pm
Quote from: foto-z
The Rollei lenses I have: 40mm f3.5, 80mm f2.8, 150mm f4, 180mm f2.8. The 80mm f2 is not sharp like the others.

Here's a 100% crop from the 80mm f2.8 lens wide open:

Graham,

I had the opportunity to handle the S2 at the Palm Springs Festival several weeks ago. The ergonomics are amazing - feels like a large 35.  I currently shoot an H2 with a Leaf 75.  The Leica rep said that they would be introducing leaf shutters almost immediately.

Time will tell, but it is beautifully made and feels great in the hand.  Like yourself though I need the leaf shutter

DC
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: henrikfoto on April 18, 2009, 04:06:04 pm
MTF-tests for the new S-lenses.
The MTF-tests presented on Leicas homepages are a little bit different than the way I am used to seeing them.
There is no information (as far as I can see) about how many lp/mm it´s measured in.
Normally is´s just 3 different lines (10, 20 and 40 lp/mm) but Leica is giving 4 lines.

Is this 5, 10, 20 and 40?   Or is it 10, 20, 40 and 80?  I guess the first one??

Does anybody know?

Henrik

Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: eronald on April 18, 2009, 04:07:52 pm
Center point AF kills resolution for handheld shooting - how d'you focus on the model's eye ? Focus and recompose, and you have lost the sharpness. That's what the D3x has - perfect focus- what landscape shooters don't need -hence the A900 success, and what already makes the S2 design a bad replacement for the 35mm crowd.

Edmund

Quote from: doncody
Graham,

I had the opportunity to handle the S2 at the Palm Springs Festival several weeks ago. The ergonomics are amazing - feels like a large 35.  I currently shoot an H2 with a Leaf 75.  The Leica rep said that they would be introducing leaf shutters almost immediately.

Time will tell, but it is beautifully made and feels great in the hand.  Like yourself though I need the leaf shutter

DC
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Carsten W on April 18, 2009, 04:34:01 pm
Quote from: henrikfoto
MTF-tests for the new S-lenses.
The MTF-tests presented on Leicas homepages are a little bit different than the way I am used to seeing them.
There is no information (as far as I can see) about how many lp/mm it´s measured in.
Normally is´s just 3 different lines (10, 20 and 40 lp/mm) but Leica is giving 4 lines.

Is this 5, 10, 20 and 40?   Or is it 10, 20, 40 and 80?  I guess the first one??

Does anybody know?

Henrik

Leica uses 5, 10, 20, 40.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: henrikfoto on April 19, 2009, 09:10:29 am
Does anyone know when the S-system will be on the market?

H
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Carsten W on April 19, 2009, 03:26:10 pm
Quote from: henrikfoto
Does anyone know when the S-system will be on the market?

"End of summer", as stated by Leica, i.e. September or so.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: eronald on April 19, 2009, 03:31:48 pm
Quote from: carstenw
"End of summer", as stated by Leica, i.e. September or so.

Hahaha

Although given the present economic climate, getting it out the door fast and serving up a fullframe M9 pronto would be a good idea in the hope of getting some cashflow restarted.

Edmund
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Frank Doorhof on April 20, 2009, 05:16:40 am
Hi,
Why would center focus point kill detail/sharpness ?

I'm using center focus for as long as I can remember and have my focus 100% perfect where I want it, maybe it's a little bit getting used to ?
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Nemo on April 20, 2009, 07:46:57 am
Quote from: Frank Doorhof
Hi,
Why would center focus point kill detail/sharpness ?

I'm using center focus for as long as I can remember and have my focus 100% perfect where I want it, maybe it's a little bit getting used to ?


The 2x3 format is more rectangular than 3x4, so, I think, 3 focal points would be a better solution than an unique central point.

.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Frank Doorhof on April 20, 2009, 09:54:49 am
I'm also focussing my DLSR on center focus only.
The center focus is more accurate and more sensitive so I'm always shooting with the center.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: eronald on April 20, 2009, 10:16:06 am
Quote from: Frank Doorhof
I'm also focussing my DLSR on center focus only.
The center focus is more accurate and more sensitive so I'm always shooting with the center.

Frank, my feeling is you have lots of light. I wouldn't want to use center focus and recompose @F2.5 for a portrait. At that point manual focus would win.

Edmund
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: mtomalty on April 20, 2009, 11:23:11 am
Quote from: Frank Doorhof
Why would center focus point kill detail/sharpness ?


Frank,

I think Edmund was referring to the process of using AF center point  (in vertical orientation
for a portrait)  to focus on the eyes and then recomposing so that the eyes are not in the center
of the image.

Even though this is only a modest amount of camera movement it sometimes is enough to
skew the focus accuracy a bit-  more critical with tight headshots and wider aperture settings.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: eronald on April 20, 2009, 12:54:23 pm
Quote from: mtomalty
Frank,

I think Edmund was referring to the process of using AF center point  (in vertical orientation
for a portrait)  to focus on the eyes and then recomposing so that the eyes are not in the center
of the image.

Even though this is only a modest amount of camera movement it sometimes is enough to
skew the focus accuracy a bit-  more critical with tight headshots and wider aperture settings.

In my experience, focusing on the eyes with center point and then recomposing for a half-body shot wrecks the focus with something like an 85mm lens on 35mm; focusing on the bosom directly will not -usually- give you sharp eyes either. Thus I find that single-point center AF is useful only if you can afford to throw away the upper half the image...

Edmund
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Frank Doorhof on April 20, 2009, 12:54:47 pm
It all depends on what you're used to I guess.
I used the 5D with the 85mm f1.8 alot of f2.0 and to be honest I hardly missed the focus.
The 70-200 f2.8 is used almost exclusivly wide open outside for portrait work.

I can understand why you would want to use other focuspoints but with MF I don't have a choice and also shoot portraits wide open with the f4.0 and f2.8 lenses.
There is always a change of missing focus of course, but it's so in my system I don't even think about it.

I have to admit that I'm rather steady in my hands so maybe that helps.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Ben Rubinstein on April 20, 2009, 02:41:42 pm
Quote from: eronald
In my experience, focusing on the eyes with center point and then recomposing for a half-body shot wrecks the focus with something like an 85mm lens on 35mm; focusing on the bosom directly will not -usually- give you sharp eyes either. Thus I find that single-point center AF is useful only if you can afford to throw away the upper half the image...

Edmund

The center point and focus recompose with the 85mm 1.8 wide open on my 5D is far more accurate than using the terrible off center points. Hardly ever misses perfect focus. The problem is when you point up to focus then recompose to eye height as you would do when shooting from models waist height. Focusing and recomposing from regular height doesn't seem to have any problems. Focusing on the bosom will only help if it's not too large, most people I've ever seen have bosums that are on a different plane of focus than the eye. Focusing on the stomach is more likely to be accurate, it doesn't stick out.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: eronald on April 20, 2009, 05:17:53 pm
Frank,

 I think you should shoot a D3x or D3 for a couple of hours, to see what really good off-center fast focus can do for you. It's addicitive.
 I can come to one of your workshops and let you shoot my Nikon, while I use my Phase back

Edmund



Quote from: Frank Doorhof
It all depends on what you're used to I guess.
I used the 5D with the 85mm f1.8 alot of f2.0 and to be honest I hardly missed the focus.
The 70-200 f2.8 is used almost exclusivly wide open outside for portrait work.

I can understand why you would want to use other focuspoints but with MF I don't have a choice and also shoot portraits wide open with the f4.0 and f2.8 lenses.
There is always a change of missing focus of course, but it's so in my system I don't even think about it.

I have to admit that I'm rather steady in my hands so maybe that helps.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Frank Doorhof on April 21, 2009, 01:58:15 am
Hi,
I would not know why I should switch to a Nikon when I get perfect focus with the 5DMKII and with my MF cameras ??

I love the RZ and there's no AF on that one.
It's all a matter of what you're used to, I'm used to using the center focus point and some aren't.
In the end it all depends on which camera gives you the work you want to do.

PLUS.
I never have the eyes of my model in the same place in the photo so IF I would use another focuspoint I would still need to focus and recompose.
Or there must be some sort of magical focuspoint on the Nikon that will always find the closest eye and also focus on exactly the point I want

That's also one of the reasons I never switched from my center focus point probably, I never use the exact same composition so using another focuspoint would not make sense they are less sensitive and in the studio we always work with little light (only the modelling lights) so I need every piece of sensitivity I can.

But you're always welcome in Emmeloord of course.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: ziocan on April 21, 2009, 02:24:17 am
Quote from: Frank Doorhof
Hi,
I would not know why I should switch to a Nikon when I get perfect focus with the 5DMKII and with my MF cameras ??

I love the RZ and there's no AF on that one.
It's all a matter of what you're used to, I'm used to using the center focus point and some aren't.
In the end it all depends on which camera gives you the work you want to do.

PLUS.
I never have the eyes of my model in the same place in the photo so IF I would use another focuspoint I would still need to focus and recompose.
Or there must be some sort of magical focuspoint on the Nikon that will always find the closest eye and also focus on exactly the point I want

That's also one of the reasons I never switched from my center focus point probably, I never use the exact same composition so using another focuspoint would not make sense they are less sensitive and in the studio we always work with little light (only the modelling lights) so I need every piece of sensitivity I can.

But you're always welcome in Emmeloord of course.
I agree.
Using the center focus point and recomposing will let you compose the photo the way you like.
Recomposing, you will never be conditioned by putting the portion of the subject you want in focus, under the closest focus point and the closest focus point it is hardly exactly where you would like it to be anyway.
Following the closest focus point without recomposing, makes us frame the photo not exactly how we would like. IMO.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: Dustbak on April 21, 2009, 03:18:27 am
Quote from: Frank Doorhof
Or there must be some sort of magical focuspoint on the Nikon that will always find the closest eye and also focus on exactly the point I want


But you're always welcome in Emmeloord of course.

There is focus tracking and it seems to work very well. Personally I have never dared to trust it but I hear from people that use it for sports or wildlife it actually works   I find the center focus/recompose interesting. With my H I also have no other choice. It seems to work in most cases. Better than trying to nail it manually when you are working fast (which is a relative term ofcourse). When I can take my time with focussing I prefer doing it slowly, manually on the screen.

It is a pity Emmeloord is such a long drive for me, I would love to visit and meet you.
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: billthecat on April 21, 2009, 04:40:48 am
When I had the Nikon D3 the outer points didn't work well for me in low light. In very low light I couldn't lock focus with the D3 but my Canon 40D would lock focus on the outer points. I ended up using only the center AF point on the D3 most of the time. In dim restaurants I'd often use outer points on the 40D but with the D3 I'd just use the center.

The Canon 5D2 is worse than those two and I only use the center point in low light, but with more light I might use the outer points, like outdoors when it's bright.

The Mamiya AFD2 needs a bunch of light to focus. With tight DOF my biggest problem is the movement of subjects. They tend to wobble some while I recompose.

Bill
Title: More Details on the Leica S2
Post by: eronald on April 21, 2009, 05:55:43 am
Quote from: billthecat
When I had the Nikon D3 the outer points didn't work well for me in low light. In very low light I couldn't lock focus with the D3 but my Canon 40D would lock focus on the outer points. I ended up using only the center AF point on the D3 most of the time. In dim restaurants I'd often use outer points on the 40D but with the D3 I'd just use the center.

The Canon 5D2 is worse than those two and I only use the center point in low light, but with more light I might use the outer points, like outdoors when it's bright.

The Mamiya AFD2 needs a bunch of light to focus. With tight DOF my biggest problem is the movement of subjects. They tend to wobble some while I recompose.

Bill

It's an interesting question whether the D3x has exactly the same focus function as the D3; my finder is off-center - the screen, not the frame.

Edmund