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Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: picnic on March 04, 2009, 05:20:44 pm

Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: picnic on March 04, 2009, 05:20:44 pm
I'm surprised no one has commented on Michael's article about traveling light with the G1.  And--now that Panasonic has announced the GHD1 with video it seems that it might be of interest, esp. after Chris' article about shooting video with the 5DII.  I understand that videographers are excited about this new little camera too.  I have the original G1 and am having great fun with it, adding several FD primes with an adaptor plus the 2 native lenses.  Its a great complementary camera to my 5D--and I do find I'm picking it up a lot.

Diane B
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: John Camp on March 04, 2009, 05:58:33 pm
There have been quite a few observations around the net and on this site about the G1, as well as a long review on Sean Reid's site. The general consensus is just as Michael portrays it: an excellent travel camera with a somewhat limited ISO range and also somewhat limited lenses (they're slow.) But for general all-around use, it's a terrific camera; I carry mine almost all the time, which I have never done with my D3/D300 (too big and heavy) or even my Leica (too expensive and you need to take too many lenses to cover the same range.) The G1 will not replace the big pro DSLRs, because the image quality is not as good as say the D3x or 1DsIII, and the ISO response is not as good as the D3 or the 5DII. But for light weight, and good flexibility within its range, nothing can touch it (at the moment.) Olympus is supposedly coming out with an even more compact system this summer, with body-based image-stabilization, that I expect to be a bit bigger than a Canon G9, but not all that much bigger, and smaller than the G1. And if they can also provide a lineup of Olympus-quality lenses and a sensor that can get even one more stop without noise, that may be my ultimate camera. (The Panasonic lenses are good, but not great, IMHO.)

I think perhaps there hasn't been much discussion of Michael's note simply because most people who know about the G1 agree with him.

JC
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: JBerardi on March 04, 2009, 07:00:15 pm
I love the concept of the "EVIL" cameras, but until there's some small primes available, I don't think said concept is fully realized. I like the G1 but it's still going on my shoulder or in a bag of some kind, same as my Nikon. Yeah, it's lighter, but frankly... I'll worry about that once I'm old. On the other hand, if Olympus* puts out this smaller m4/3 system with some nice, small primes... then that IS a big difference to me, and I'll totally be on board. Call it the "Coat Pocket Barrier".

You hear that, camera companies? Make a 9mm prime, and I promise you will sell at least the one...





*I don't actually care if it's Olympus, they're just the ones who happen to be making noise about the sort of thing I'm describing.
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: picnic on March 04, 2009, 07:20:26 pm
Quote from: JBerardi
I love the concept of the "EVIL" cameras, but until there's some small primes available, I don't think said concept is fully realized. I like the G1 but it's still going on my shoulder or in a bag of some kind, same as my Nikon. Yeah, it's lighter, but frankly... I'll worry about that once I'm old. On the other hand, if Olympus* puts out this smaller m4/3 system with some nice, small primes... then that IS a big difference to me, and I'll totally be on board. Call it the "Coat Pocket Barrier".

You hear that, camera companies? Make a 9mm prime, and I promise you will sell at least the one...





*I don't actually care if it's Olympus, they're just the ones who happen to be making noise about the sort of thing I'm describing.

The big deal today for the m4/3rds at PMA is the announcement of the GHD1 it seems.  It appears to address some of the 5DII issues with video (i"m not a video person so only passing on what I've read)
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0903/09030315...lumixdmcgh1.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0903/09030315panasoniclumixdmcgh1.asp)  
plus there's at least one lens introduced that wasn't before--a 45 f/2.8 macro.   The 7-14 f/4, 14-140HD lens both are due out soon--they are saying May.  Oh, and the video samples are online--might be of interest to some
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/systemcamer.../gh1/movie.html (http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/systemcamera/gms/gh1/movie.html)
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: DarkPenguin on March 04, 2009, 08:40:51 pm
I think those of us who wanted this already bought one.

Chiropractors should sell these things.
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: JBerardi on March 04, 2009, 09:00:31 pm
Quote from: picnic
The big deal today for the m4/3rds at PMA is the announcement of the GHD1 it seems.  It appears to address some of the 5DII issues with video (i"m not a video person so only passing on what I've read)
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0903/09030315...lumixdmcgh1.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0903/09030315panasoniclumixdmcgh1.asp)  
plus there's at least one lens introduced that wasn't before--a 45 f/2.8 macro.   The 7-14 f/4, 14-140HD lens both are due out soon--they are saying May.  Oh, and the video samples are online--might be of interest to some
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/systemcamer.../gh1/movie.html (http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/systemcamera/gms/gh1/movie.html)

Yes, all that stuff is well and good, but it's not a reason for me to buy the system. I can see how for a lot of the user base of this camera, having video is Huge Deal, but I'm indifferent. The 7-14 is a good and necessary addition to the lens lineup... but I'm more interested in the Sigma 10-20 f3.5 that got introduced that's wider and also has the notable advantage of mounting on a camera I already own. Of course, they have to develop a proper lens lineup for those people who aren't already in a SLR system (notice how much the G1 resembles a regular Lumix point and shoot?), but I am in one, and it's a totally fine one, so I'll wait for the m4/3 people to come up with something that's really unique, not just a baby version of what I have now.

And I'm sure they will, eventually. Being a late adopter is nice like that. I'm excited about the future of M4/3, but I'll wait for that future to actually come to pass before I invest anything in it... and then I'll buy a used G1 from someone who owned one buy just HAD to have HD video  
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: jeremyrh on March 05, 2009, 05:09:40 am
I hung back on this until I saw the Olympus announcement, but for me it is really a show-stopper to not have a viewfinder (plus, it's ugly). Squinting at a screen and holding the camera un-braced in 2 hands is just not workable for me. Also - I am not at all interested in video, so teh new Pana has no benefit for me. Now I have the G1 - for sure it is too big for a coat pocket, but it goes in a small bag, or in the backpack I usually take. Also, it fits in a travel kit for business trips where I can't justify a big DSLR, but want the chance to shoot decent shots in a new place.
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: Ben Rubinstein on March 05, 2009, 07:28:20 am
Quote from: JBerardi
Call it the "Coat Pocket Barrier".

+1!
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: NikoJorj on March 05, 2009, 08:30:07 am
Quote from: jeremyrh
I hung back on this until I saw the Olympus announcement, but for me it is really a show-stopper to not have a viewfinder (plus, it's ugly). Squinting at a screen and holding the camera un-braced in 2 hands is just not workable for me.
I'm reluctant to give away the optical viewfinder too...

But if I read Michael's review :
Quote
I've found that generally the G1's viewfinder does the job, and it's only in some specialized situations that it is inferior to a mirror reflex
It seems it's not that annoying.
Michael, may I ask for a few details : what are exactly these specialized situations?

And about the LX3, you used it regularly on the beach : how was the screen in bright sunlight?

My main use for such a coat-pocket (if not pocket) camera would be while backcountry skiing, that means generally lots of sun and lots of snow and the back screen of my good'ol 300D (yes, the rebel) is not of much help - I can barely read the histogram and just have to forgive anything about the image review itself.
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: picnic on March 05, 2009, 08:58:22 am
Quote from: NikoJorj
I'm reluctant to give away the optical viewfinder too...

But if I read Michael's review :

It seems it's not that annoying.
Michael, may I ask for a few details : what are exactly these specialized situations?

And about the LX3, you used it regularly on the beach : how was the screen in bright sunlight?

My main use for such a coat-pocket (if not pocket) camera would be while backcountry skiing, that means generally lots of sun and lots of snow and the back screen of my good'ol 300D (yes, the rebel) is not of much help - I can barely read the histogram and just have to forgive anything about the image review itself.

I suspect you'd prefer the LX3 (which I don't own and won't) for backcountry skiing (sizewise--pocketable--but then the G1 is smaller than the 400D which I do own), but just to point something out---everything you see on your LCD with the G1 is able to be viewed in the EVF--including review, RGB histos, etc.  For me, that's a biggie.  I could never use the G9 very well in sun to compose, check histo (live or review), or focus.  The EVF took me just a short bit to get used to it and now--wish that I had something similar to MF with a TS on the 5D.  I'd say the only time I find the EVF a bit of an issue is in VERY dark circumstances where it will get grainy--but--and this is a big but--you can still generally focus,  whereas I may not be able to focus with the 5D in the same circumstances.  I really didn't think I would like the EVF but have come to like it very much--and esp. with alternative MF lenses where the MF assist makes focusing so easy that I find MF really enjoyable.

Diane
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: pegelli on March 05, 2009, 09:31:03 am
Quote from: picnic
I really didn't think I would like the EVF but have come to like it very much--and esp. with alternative MF lenses where the MF assist makes focusing so easy that I find MF really enjoyable.

Diane

Thanks for that post. I must say that the G1 really peaked my interest as well since it would allow me to use my old stable of Leica M primes again. Can you describe how the MF assist really works in practice with MF lenses? Michael has promised to report out on his Leica M converter but I don't think it is out yet. I could easily see myself covering WA with the standard zoom lens and then having the 35 mm equivalent of a 70/2.8, 100/2 and 180/2.8 if indeed the system is user friendly enough to use it. The M8 is financially out of reach and I'm not interested (don't have the time) to load film in my old M2, so the G1 seems the route to go.


Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: NikoJorj on March 05, 2009, 10:21:49 am
Quote from: picnic
I'd say the only time I find the EVF a bit of an issue is in VERY dark circumstances where it will get grainy--but--and this is a big but--you can still generally focus,
OK, thanks!
I had a worse experience with EVFs at the time of the Dimage7... I couldn't use it much more than the back screen because it wasn't bright enough (or not enough shielded from external light), but it was some time ago.

And yes, I'm much more inclined towards the LX3 or another "serious" compact for bulk & weight reasons. The G1 is smaller than my 300d but not that smaller - and it would mean reinvest in a complete system. I keep an eye on the new µ4/3 Olympus though, when it will be more than a block of wood.
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: dalethorn on March 05, 2009, 10:38:52 am
Quote from: JBerardi
I'll wait for the m4/3 people to come up with something that's really unique, not just a baby version of what I have now.

No mirror box. Thank God.
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: picnic on March 05, 2009, 12:13:30 pm
Quote from: NikoJorj
OK, thanks!
I had a worse experience with EVFs at the time of the Dimage7... I couldn't use it much more than the back screen because it wasn't bright enough (or not enough shielded from external light), but it was some time ago.

And yes, I'm much more inclined towards the LX3 or another "serious" compact for bulk & weight reasons. The G1 is smaller than my 300d but not that smaller - and it would mean reinvest in a complete system. I keep an eye on the new µ4/3 Olympus though, when it will be more than a block of wood.

I've never tried an EVF before.  From what I read from others, this is very unlike any EVF ever before.  Its very bright all the time--but you can also do a display that shows you exacctly what you will get with a particular shutter speed--esp. useful for manual.

There are M mount adaptors for the G1.  Cameraquest has one as well as Rayqual, Novoflex--and there are probably some on ebay.  Check this chart
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dx428wg_10fdvsmtd7 (http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dx428wg_10fdvsmtd7)  Its constantly being updated as more and more appear.  I believe Jim Milich has an M also.  I bought the FD adaptor from Cameraquest  http://cameraquest.com/adp_micro_43.htm (http://cameraquest.com/adp_micro_43.htm)

To use MF assist with an MF lens, you go into the menu and choose 'shoot w/o lens'.  I would say all of us are just leaving this on as it doesn't seem to make any difference when using the Panny native lenses for AF at all (BTW, you can use MF assist by setting it on dial on camera top left and just touching the focus ring on the Panny AF lens also).  

With the MF lens mounted with its adaptor, you can just MF with focus ring, but to use MF assist (10X zoom), you click on the <- of the 4 way button which brings up the large MF square.  You can reduce the focus square size to smaller by using the front dial.  You can also move the AF square to anywhere except very far edges of image.  Then click on OK (middle button of 4 way) and you get a full VF of 10X zoom and focus with your front focus ring.  It takes quite a bit longer to type this than it does to use it LOL.  Most of us are using aperture priority, letting the camera choose the shutter speed--and often using auto ISO letting it choose ISO.  

Hope this explains sufficiently.  For anyone wanting to shoot with alternative lenses of all but EOS (AFAIK), there are probably straight adaptors or in some cases, using 2 adaptors (though many of these will be supplanted with direct adaptors as these cheaper adaptor mfg. offer them).  I owned one old 50 f/1.8 which I think was a kit lens for AE-1--I just kept it so I had something on the body.  I looked around, saw that the FD lenses were good on the G1, bought an adaptor, bought a 24 f/2.8 and 35 f/2.8 (would have liked faster but plan to buy Panasonic 20 f/1.7 this Fall when its out and these were smaller than faster in same FL), a set of 12mm, 20mm, 36mm and added a 25mm extension tube set (those for $20 total) and I have a nice MF set in FL range I normally shoot for under $250.   And--its fun to use.  I still have my 5D with a lot of EF mount lenses, but I find I'm carrying the G1 quite a lot.

Diane
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: John Camp on March 05, 2009, 02:04:10 pm
It just occurred to me that if somebody made a sturdy collapsible plastic LCD shade, like they do for most DSLRs, that could be attached to the back of the Olympus, you'd essentially have a huge dark very visible viewfinder -- might even be too huge to see well from a couple of inches, perhaps there could be a scaled-down image that could optionally be run on the LCD (it seems to me that that would be a relatively minor piece of firmware.) That would eliminate the problem of having to hold the camera away from your body. If done right, and was sturdy enough, it would even be an effective eye-brace. But, it's have to be light and collapsible, or you'd lose the size/weight advantage.

JC
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: DarkPenguin on March 08, 2009, 04:51:57 pm
In the latest (3.5) Lenswork podcast Brooks Jensen mentions he has a G1.  Not a review of it but he seems to like it.
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: John Camp on March 09, 2009, 01:09:30 pm
Quote from: pegelli
Thanks for that post. I must say that the G1 really peaked my interest as well since it would allow me to use my old stable of Leica M primes again. Can you describe how the MF assist really works in practice with MF lenses? Michael has promised to report out on his Leica M converter but I don't think it is out yet. I could easily see myself covering WA with the standard zoom lens and then having the 35 mm equivalent of a 70/2.8, 100/2 and 180/2.8 if indeed the system is user friendly enough to use it. The M8 is financially out of reach and I'm not interested (don't have the time) to load film in my old M2, so the G1 seems the route to go.

You should be aware that Sean Reid (paid site) reviewed the G1 with Leica primes, and found that they do not perform very well around the edges of the photo -- the fall off is quite dramatic in his examples. You'd have to read the site to understand why (I don't want to steal Sean's review from him) but it's a serious problem. Essentially, the very best Leica lenses do not perform as well as the Panasonics , except in the center of the sensor.

JC
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: dalethorn on March 09, 2009, 01:45:37 pm
Panasonic apparently feels that the GH1's competition is pocket cameras and low-cost "superzoom" cameras, which must be the reason they're going to sell it packaged with their 14-140 (28-280 in 35mm terms) lens, with no alternative except to buy extra lenses wherever you can get them. I haven't owned any interchangeable lens camera since 2001, when I dumped my Leica M6. But still, I know enough that I would much prefer buying a GH1 with a short and long lens combo, like a 24-85 and 100-400 (35mm eq.)

I'm familiar with the low-noise capability of the LX3 when shooting indoors with average lighting, without flash. And if the sample GH1 photos I saw of the interior of a equipment exhibit are authentic, then it's in another dimension entirely from the LX3. Better than I expected.
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: BJL on March 09, 2009, 03:40:39 pm
Ah, the unsteady arms-length LCD camera shooting complaint again:
Quote from: jeremyrh
...  holding the camera un-braced in 2 hands is just not workable for me.
I held my former digicam quite steadily with my elbows and upper arms firmly braced against my body as I composed on the LCD; my upper arms were in fact more solidly pressed down and into my chest than with an SLR, due to the lower camera position.

I am mystified why so many people suggest that it is necessary to wave an "LCD camera" around at arms length, just because this is done by some snap-shooters who do not think about technique, and by long-sighted people I suppose.

Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: tonysmith on March 09, 2009, 03:47:04 pm
Quote from: dalethorn
I know enough that I would much prefer buying a GH1 with a short and long lens combo, like a 24-85 and 100-400 (35mm eq.)

I would appreciate if you could explain why you think a short and long lens combo would be better - it might guide my choice.

Thanks

Tony
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: dalethorn on March 09, 2009, 04:18:43 pm
Quote from: tonysmith
I would appreciate if you could explain why you think a short and long lens combo would be better - it might guide my choice.
Thanks
Tony

It's just the way I shoot, mainly the subjects. On the short end, I frequently need to get photos of structures that have things in the way if I don't get between those things and the structure. Example - trees in front of a house. So a very wide angle would help, and I don't want to do any stitching. For people who don't mind that, no problem. Another major interest is small items such as birds, which requires a long zoom. I've been able to use a 420mm (35mm eq.) zoom handheld with image stabliization under average lighting, so the 280mm (35mm eq.) zoom of the GH1 kit lens just isn't enough.

Looking over the product description, it appears that the kit lens for the GH1 will be a very good lens, which means a large part of your investment is in that lens, so that makes the GH1 a problem sell for people who don't want the kit lens.
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: Daniel Browning on March 09, 2009, 08:09:31 pm
Quote from: BJL
I held my former digicam quite steadily with my elbows and upper arms firmly braced against my body as I composed on the LCD; my upper arms were in fact more solidly pressed down and into my chest than with an SLR, due to the lower camera position.

Agreed. Tilt/swivel LCD allow me to shoot at much slower shutter speeds (relative to field of view) than I can with optical viewfinders. I'm looking for a good shoulder-based support system to get the fixed LCD of my 5D2 into a position where I can use liveview for critical focus, which is probably something I wouldn't bother with if it had a moving LCD.
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: tonysmith on March 09, 2009, 08:24:14 pm
Quote from: dalethorn
It's just the way I shoot, mainly the subjects. On the short end, I frequently need to get photos of structures that have things in the way if I don't get between those things and the structure. Example - trees in front of a house. So a very wide angle would help, and I don't want to do any stitching. For people who don't mind that, no problem. Another major interest is small items such as birds, which requires a long zoom. I've been able to use a 420mm (35mm eq.) zoom handheld with image stabliization under average lighting, so the 280mm (35mm eq.) zoom of the GH1 kit lens just isn't enough.

Looking over the product description, it appears that the kit lens for the GH1 will be a very good lens, which means a large part of your investment is in that lens, so that makes the GH1 a problem sell for people who don't want the kit lens.

Thanks for explaining.

I mostly use a 24mm to 135 mm zoom which has been fine for most of my needs, so the GH1 kit would be an improvement for me. Glad to hear you expect it to be a very good lens.

Tony

Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: pegelli on March 10, 2009, 02:27:21 am
Quote from: John Camp
You should be aware that Sean Reid (paid site) reviewed the G1 with Leica primes, and found that they do not perform very well around the edges of the photo -- the fall off is quite dramatic in his examples. You'd have to read the site to understand why (I don't want to steal Sean's review from him) but it's a serious problem. Essentially, the very best Leica lenses do not perform as well as the Panasonics , except in the center of the sensor.

JC

Thanks for poiting out John, Obviously not what I wanted to hear, but hey I won't blame you or Sean for Leica not designing their 40 year old M lenses to fail on digital micro 4/3rds.  

I guess I will have to buy a M8 or go back to film  
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: jeremyrh on March 10, 2009, 04:02:56 pm
Quote from: BJL
Ah, the unsteady arms-length LCD camera shooting complaint again:

I held my former digicam quite steadily with my elbows and upper arms firmly braced against my body as I composed on the LCD; my upper arms were in fact more solidly pressed down and into my chest than with an SLR, due to the lower camera position.

I am mystified why so many people suggest that it is necessary to wave an "LCD camera" around at arms length, just because this is done by some snap-shooters who do not think about technique, and by long-sighted people I suppose.
From your description, I'm not clear if you are talking about a tilt/swivel LCD - which the LX3, G10, the upcoming Olympus mft, and other natural competitors to the G1 do not, as far as I know, have - or if by some contortions you are using a regular LCD, but inevitably leaving it about 2 inches from your eyeballs.

For myself, I find it difficult or uncomfortable to focus on a small screen held close to my eyes, and no amount of thinking about my technique will change that - hence my preference for a viewfinder, be it optical or electronic. If you have another preferred technique, feel free to continue using it.
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: BJL on March 11, 2009, 02:37:48 pm
I was doing this with a non-tiltable LCD, with it about eight inches from my eyes. Where did you get the idea that it would be only 2" from my eyes? It is my upper arms (armpits to elbows) that are firmly against my torso, while the lower arms angle out a bit to have the camera far enough from my eyes for me to focus on the LCD. But the forearms are still nearly vertical, allowing them to be stable while keeping all arm muscles fairly relaxed, avoiding the shake associated with horizontal arm position.

If anyone wishes to declare this to be significantly less stable than traditional SLR holding, please actually try it first. I have gone so far as to test it at various low shutter speeds to confirm that this methods gives good results.

P. S. I never "brace" an SLR against my forehead or eye-socket (does anyone?); I support cameras entirely from below with my hands, and that is good enough to get sharp images at distinctly slower than the 1/f guideline, with 35mm film.
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: jeremyrh on March 11, 2009, 04:04:47 pm
Quote from: BJL
I was doing this with a non-tiltable LCD, with it about eight inches from my eyes. Where did you get the idea that it would be only 2" from my eyes? It is my upper arms (armpits to elbows) that are firmly against my torso, while the lower arms angle out a bit to have the camera far enough from my eyes for me to focus on the LCD. But the forearms are still nearly vertical, allowing them to be stable while keeping all arm muscles fairly relaxed, avoiding the shake associated with horizontal arm position.
Like I said - if that works for you, keep doing it. It doesn't work for me. How about you choose your camera according to your criteria, and I choose mine?
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: BJL on March 11, 2009, 05:33:34 pm
Quote from: jeremyrh
Like I said - if that works for you, keep doing it. It doesn't work for me.
Have you actually experimented much with various options for holding a camera steady while composing on the LCD? Your original post described such a severely sub-optimal "snap shooter" approach that it seemed you had not gone beyond looking at what snap-shooters often do. If you have tried other methods besides the "unbraced" approach, why only mention it in your complaint, instead of addressing other more sensible approaches to steady camera holding?
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: jeremyrh on March 12, 2009, 01:51:08 am
Quote from: BJL
Have you actually experimented much with various options for holding a camera steady while composing on the LCD? Your original post described such a severely sub-optimal "snap shooter" approach that it seemed you had not gone beyond looking at what snap-shooters often do. If you have tried other methods besides the "unbraced" approach, why only mention it in your complaint, instead of addressing other more sensible approaches to steady camera holding?
I don't find it comfortable to lean back in the way you describe, and I don't find it comfortable to attempt to focus on things near my face. Not having double-jointed elbows, or forearms a metre long, that imposes certain restrictions on how I hold a camera.

But mostly, I don't understand why you find it so difficult to accept that not everyone is the same as you, and may have different preferences. You seem to be on some sort of crusade for LCD orthodoxy. Enjoy the ride - I won't be coming along.
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: Bobtrips on March 12, 2009, 06:23:14 am
Quote from: BJL
Have you actually experimented much with various options for holding a camera steady while composing on the LCD? Your original post described such a severely sub-optimal "snap shooter" approach that it seemed you had not gone beyond looking at what snap-shooters often do. If you have tried other methods besides the "unbraced" approach, why only mention it in your complaint, instead of addressing other more sensible approaches to steady camera holding?

I have experimented.

I used a camera with both EVF and LCD views while shooting (Panasonic FZ5) and shot a target while (as closely as possible) maintaining constant camera/target distance.  IS off for all shots.

I shot ten shots with the camera braced against my fact while using the EVF and ten shots holding the camera at a comfortable distance from my face and shooting from the LCD.  (5 EVF, 5 LCD, 5 EVF, ....)

There was no appreciable difference between the sharpness/fuzziness of the images.  IMO.

I'm reasonably convinced by these results (since I started with a 'to the face'/EVF bias).

Two other people on DPR ran roughly the same test and obtained the same results.

A better study (more subjects, more trials, more objective measurement system) might make for an interesting undergrad research project.





Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: dalethorn on March 12, 2009, 06:48:52 am
Quote from: Bobtrips
I have experimented.
I used a camera with both EVF and LCD views while shooting (Panasonic FZ5) and shot a target while (as closely as possible) maintaining constant camera/target distance.  IS off for all shots.
I shot ten shots with the camera braced against my fact while using the EVF and ten shots holding the camera at a comfortable distance from my face and shooting from the LCD.  (5 EVF, 5 LCD, 5 EVF, ....)
There was no appreciable difference between the sharpness/fuzziness of the images.  IMO.
I'm reasonably convinced by these results (since I started with a 'to the face'/EVF bias).
Two other people on DPR ran roughly the same test and obtained the same results.
A better study (more subjects, more trials, more objective measurement system) might make for an interesting undergrad research project.

The digicam screens help sell the cameras to the general public (GP), who see the instant results on screen ("Polaroid effect"). Viewfinders on all cameras I've owned that had viewfinders were always superior for framing. Too bad that serious users now have to pay for those screens on cameras when we don't need them.
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: Bobtrips on March 12, 2009, 10:53:54 am
Quote from: dalethorn
The digicam screens help sell the cameras to the general public (GP), who see the instant results on screen ("Polaroid effect"). Viewfinders on all cameras I've owned that had viewfinders were always superior for framing. Too bad that serious users now have to pay for those screens on cameras when we don't need them.

Right.

What serious photographer would ever want to check to see if they actually got the shot they were after before getting back to their computer?

Let's get some LCD free cameras, guess at what pushing menu buttons do, and save that $5.

After all, anyone who might want to sit down at lunch at take a look at what they shot during the morning - how can anyone like that call themselves a photographer?

;o)
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: lensfactory on March 12, 2009, 11:06:14 am
Quote from: dalethorn
The digicam screens help sell the cameras to the general public (GP), who see the instant results on screen ("Polaroid effect"). Viewfinders on all cameras I've owned that had viewfinders were always superior for framing. Too bad that serious users now have to pay for those screens on cameras when we don't need them.

That's the whole point, getting that feedback. An optical viewfinder  is of no great advantage if it isn't large,bright and coupled with the lens. Not easy to fit on a small camera...and mostly unnecessary. I add a voigtlander viewfinder on the shoe of my LX3 which corresponds to 24mm and though useful, not completely necessary.
I hardly think it is just the general public that wants the "polaroid effect". Serious users are quite happy they don't have to go back to shooting polaroids to get that instant feedback.
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: BJL on March 12, 2009, 11:06:28 am
Bob, thanks for the experimental data.


Jeremy,
Quote from: jeremyrh
I don't find it comfortable to lean back in the way you describe, and I don't find it comfortable to attempt to focus on things near my face. Not having double-jointed elbows, or forearms a metre long, that imposes certain restrictions on how I hold a camera.

But mostly, I don't understand why you find it so difficult to accept that not everyone is the same as you, and may have different preferences. You seem to be on some sort of crusade for LCD orthodoxy. Enjoy the ride - I won't be coming along.
I do not lean back, and never said that I did. On the other I recognize that some people cannot handle the focusing distance required. In fact, that might apply to the majority of photographers past a certain age, which I am approaching!

So on your second point, I am not at all arguing that composing on the LCD is a viable approach for everyone, and indeed for various reasons, I prefer my future EVIL cameras to come with both a "one-eyed VF" (EVF) and a "two-eyed VF"  in the form of an articulated LCD, as Panasonic's do so far, but the tiny first Olympus model apparently will not.

I was solely refuting what seemed to be yet another claim that composing on the LCD inherently requires the use of an unstable arms-away-from-the-body method of camera holding
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: DarkPenguin on March 12, 2009, 11:06:59 am
Quote from: Bobtrips
Right.

What serious photographer would ever want to check to see if they actually got the shot they were after before getting back to their computer?

Let's get some LCD free cameras, guess at what pushing menu buttons do, and save that $5.

After all, anyone who might want to sit down at lunch at take a look at what they shot during the morning - how can anyone like that call themselves a photographer?

;o)

Note that with the G1 you can see all that stuff in the EVF.
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: lensfactory on March 12, 2009, 11:13:24 am
Quote from: BJL
I was solely refuting what seemed to be yet another claim that composing on the LCD inherently requires the use of an unstable arms-away-from-the-body method of camera holding

Besides...a plus of the LCD is that you can brace the camera against things and tilt the camera to compose. I have done this many times shooting in low light. Not possible most of the times if you'd have to keep your eye on the camera.
BTW....I think the general consensus of those with newer DSLR's with liveview say they love it...find it very useful for a variety of reasons.
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: DarkPenguin on March 12, 2009, 11:16:28 am
Quote from: lensfactory
Besides...a plus of the LCD is that you can brace the camera against things and tilt the camera to compose. I have done this many times shooting in low light. Not possible most of the times if you'd have to keep your eye on the camera.
BTW....I think the general consensus of those with newer DSLR's with liveview say they love it...find it very useful for a variety of reasons.
I like to shoot the G1 at waist level.  Seems pretty stable that way.
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: jeremyrh on March 12, 2009, 11:57:23 am
Quote from: BJL
Jeremy,

I do not lean back, and never said that I did. On the other I recognize that some people cannot handle the focusing distance required. In fact, that might apply to the majority of photographers past a certain age, which I am approaching!

So on your second point, I am not at all arguing that composing on the LCD is a viable approach for everyone, and indeed for various reasons, I prefer my future EVIL cameras to come with both a "one-eyed VF" (EVF) and a "two-eyed VF"  in the form of an articulated LCD, as Panasonic's do so far, but the tiny first Olympus model apparently will not.

I was solely refuting what seemed to be yet another claim that composing on the LCD inherently requires the use of an unstable arms-away-from-the-body method of camera holding

Fine, but I specdifically did not make that claim. I said
" for me it is really a show-stopper to not have a viewfinder (plus, it's ugly). Squinting at a screen and holding the camera un-braced in 2 hands is just not workable for me. "
Note the words "for me"

For the rest, it isn't really worth bothering with. If your forearms are vertical and your head is 8" from the camera then you must be leaning back. For my focussing distance that would amount to standing at about 45 degrees :-(

Let's leave it here - I don't want to get into a bad-tempered exchange. (Anyway - I agree that the LCD can be very useful, especially for shots of flowers etc, or candid shots, and with the G1 tilt/swivel you can get extra bracing by holding it at "twin lens reflex" height and keeping the strap taut.)
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: BJL on March 12, 2009, 12:43:55 pm
My comments have consisted almost entirely of describing how I do it, not criticizing anyone else's choices. The only criticism I made was this:
"I am mystified why so many people suggest that it is necessary to wave an "LCD camera" around at arms length". I stand by that, because many people have explicitly made that false claim, and your comment to did at least suggest it.

Quote from: jeremyrh
If your forearms are vertical and your head is 8" from the camera then you must be leaning back.
I said "near vertical", not "vertical"; near enough that very little muscle tension is needed, unlike horizontal holding, so the arms are quite relaxed and steady.
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: Craig Arnold on March 13, 2009, 12:19:53 pm
I had a chance to play with a G1 a few days ago. I haven't purchased one just yet, but I must say I was quite intrigued by the EVF. It's nothing like an optical finder, nor indeed like the LCD. It all seems very "Blade Runner", but not particularly unpleasant. Different from what I expected, but not bad at all.

In practice I would mostly be wanting to use it with the coming 20mm f1.7, and would probably put a Voigtlander optical finder on the top.


Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: EasyEd on March 21, 2009, 01:15:40 am
Hey All,

I'm excited!

About 11 hours ago I got a new Panasonic G1. It's not mine but in another way it is. At work I had some year end money for a camera and bought the G1 and the 45-200 lens (it comes with the 14-45). Got the battery charged and this weekend is gonna be one of those sun and cloud after storm before the next storm weekends here on Vancouver Island. Now if I can just figure out how to work it. Been looking through the manual during the March Madness Games this evening. I do love it's size and weight and handling. Looking forward to seeing what I can get out of it the next couple days as I should have some time to get out with it and will post my impressions.

-Ed-
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: dalethorn on March 21, 2009, 09:49:50 am
Quote from: lensfactory
That's the whole point, getting that feedback. An optical viewfinder  is of no great advantage if it isn't large,bright and coupled with the lens. Not easy to fit on a small camera...and mostly unnecessary. I add a voigtlander viewfinder on the shoe of my LX3 which corresponds to 24mm and though useful, not completely necessary.
I hardly think it is just the general public that wants the "polaroid effect". Serious users are quite happy they don't have to go back to shooting polaroids to get that instant feedback.

In every camera I've owned with an EVF, the EVF was superior to the screen for *playback* as well as record. The *polaroid* effect is simply the effect the new buyer gets in the store, seeing the photo they just took on the playback screen. I believe that the average naive new buyer appreciates the screen because they are so *conditioned* by TV viewing.
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: tedmna on April 06, 2009, 11:18:59 am
I have rigged up a Hoodman to my LX3 to make it easier to use.  Rather than explain it a photo is here:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3129/315533...484894306_b.jpg (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3129/3155331220_8484894306_b.jpg)
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: dalethorn on April 06, 2009, 09:53:01 pm
Quote from: tedmna
I have rigged up a Hoodman to my LX3 to make it easier to use.  Rather than explain it a photo is here:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3129/315533...484894306_b.jpg (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3129/3155331220_8484894306_b.jpg)

Funny - looks bigger than a G1 with either stock lens. ????
Title: G1-traveling light
Post by: jjj on April 13, 2009, 12:44:08 pm
Quote from: lensfactory
Besides...a plus of the LCD is that you can brace the camera against things and tilt the camera to compose. I have done this many times shooting in low light. Not possible most of the times if you'd have to keep your eye on the camera.
BTW....I think the general consensus of those with newer DSLR's with liveview say they love it...find it very useful for a variety of reasons.
I find not having live view on my DSLRs far, far more limiting that not having a viewfinder on compact cameras. In fact I've never used the viewfinder on a compact that has a screen as I've always found it's always inferior in usage. As unless its an EVF, it's not WYSWIG and is why I always preferred SLRs before digital appeared. I've never understood the appeal of rangefinders, simply inferior to use to my mind and I've had a few.
I actually have an EVF for my pocket camera, but as it makes camera than little less pocketable, I tend not to carry it most of the time and when I do have in bag I forget to use it.