Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: BJNY on February 14, 2009, 02:30:39 am
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Correcting color casts when wide angle lenses and/or
lens movements are used with technical cameras.
Wondering how each brand differs in use:
-Phase One's LCC
-Leaf's Custom Gain
-Sinar's white shading
-Hasselblad's Custom white correction
Would users and reps describe their procedures and opinions, please?
Thanks in advance for any replies.
Billy
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Here my feedback, although I had explained it in another thread. Better to have all together, to compare.
- Shoot the white shading with a diffusor/opal in front of the lens /Shoot your image(s)
- Import the files
- activate the "Shading Mode" ---> the file(s) in the contact sheet can then be marked as "White Shading"
- mark the white shadings in the upper left "click-box" (see screenshot 1)
- this marked "white shading" file will be applied to all following images in the contact sheet, UNTIL ...
- .... another file is marked as white shading, which will itself be applied to the next following files, until ...
- ... and so on ...
- drag these files in any folder of your choice ---> it will create new DNGs with the shading applied (or one can export and create then TIFs or JPGs with shadings applied)
The process/feature, when activated, greys-out the files selected, puts a "separator" between the files having a different shading file applied, making it an easy visual control. Files can be de-selected, if for example one does not want the shading to be applied to a particular image included in the sequence.
In addition to this, there is another feature, the "Vignetting Correction" tool, which can be applied at the same time, when the shading process takes place, with different strength: NONE, 25%, 50%, 75% or 100% (see screenshot) 2.
IMO a very workflow orientated "Shading" tool, which saves hours of work, since it is batch-processed and automatic, on as many files one wishes.
Best regards,
Thierry
Edited for Addendum: the shading tool obviously works tethered and un-tethered
Correcting color casts when wide angle lenses and/or
lens movements are used with technical cameras.
Wondering how each brand differs in use:
-Sinar's white shading
Would users and reps describe their procedures and opinions, please?
I recall:
-Sinar now has vignetting control as well.
Thanks in advance for any replies.
Billy
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Hi all
I'd be really interested in whether anybody has an opinion on whether the wavelength of the light entering the lens has any significant effect on the colour cast produced.
I've read about people who, like Thierry, shoot a LCC (or whatever other brands call it) along with their session of shots, and those who do a set of LCC's in the studio, for each value of aperture/rise/fall/shift/tilt etc and then apply to other shots.
Any links or pointers to other threads welcome.
TIA
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1. Capture the LCC by placing the calibration plate over the front of the lens (you may have to open up 1.5 -2 stops)
2 While in Capture One software, click on thumbnail of image and white balance.
3. Save the LCC with a corresponding name to the image that it will be applied to.
4. Click the image or images that you will need to apply the LCC to and go the drop down list of calibration files and apply the file to the images.
[attachment=11524:Picture_1.png]
[attachment=11525:Picture_2.png]
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
877-217-9870 | National
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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1. Capture the LCC by placing the calibration plate over the front of the lens (you may have to open up 1.5 -2 stops)
Thanks, Chris.
Isn't it better to keep the aperture the same between LCC and actual images?
So, slow down the shutter speed 1.5-2 stops
OR
increase the strobe output by 1.5-2 stops (when using flash inside studio)
Correct?
Does Capture One also correct lens falloff (vignetting) when a center filter isn't used on a Digitar?
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Chris,
Surely the point is that the cast is partly dependent on the aperture?
@BJNY
In my experience the LCC doesn't correct for falloff, and I use a CF as a result. I'd be interested in hearing any other nifty and efficient solutions to correcting fall off though
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Thanks, Chris.
Isn't it better to keep the aperture the same between LCC and actual images?
So, slow down the shutter speed 1.5-2 stops
OR
increase the strobe output by 1.5-2 stops (when using flash inside studio)
Correct?
Does Capture One also correct lens falloff (vignetting) when a center filter isn't used on a Digitar?
When I need to add exposure to the LCC in Capture One I temporarily raise the ISO, So I don't have to mess with camera or strobe settings.
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When I need to add exposure to the LCC in Capture One I temporarily raise the ISO, So I don't have to mess with camera or strobe settings.
So David, chroma noise is independent of ISO?
I ask because I've never thought to test that out.
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So David, chroma noise is independent of ISO?
I ask because I've never thought to test that out.
The Phase One only LCC only corrects the color shift, not anything else like light fall off from wide angle, I have not seen any problems using 100 or 200 for the LCC when using 50 for the main exposure.
I had not thought to test it scientifically either but it seems to work fine. The final files are very clean. I am not sure if it would be different with some of the other systems.
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Thanks David,
It seems intuitive that that would be the case, but I must test same, the question having been raised.
(I'm shooting a P45 on Bicam/Schneiders)
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I would recommend to use the same f-stop, of course, with the same camera movement (shift, tilt or swing or whatever), obviously.
In this respect, let me say that this "Shading" tool has been developed with the help and instructions of Rainer Viertlböck: he can certainly jump in and give the reasons what is the idea and why it has been done the way it is, needing himself and using shadings on a daily basis. I think he may have much more to say, from a practical point of view.
Best regards,
Thierry
Isn't it better to keep the aperture the same between LCC and actual images?
So, slow down the shutter speed 1.5-2 stops
OR
increase the strobe output by 1.5-2 stops (when using flash inside studio)
Correct?
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Hi,
For Hasselblad backs here is some info:
There is a feature in Phocus called Custom White Balance.
Here is the only instructions I've found on this:
Custom white correction
This feature allows you to correct for things like cast issues when using tilt and shift. User interface for this has been added to the lens correction tool. The procedure is as follows:
1) Make a calibration image of a neutral gray surface - the best results are obtained by using an opaque filter. The capture can be made either tethered or untethered.
2) The calibration image needs to be available as a 3F file so if it was captured untethered you will need to import it.
3) Load an image where you'd like to apply the correction
4) Select the thumbnail of the calibration image and click the Create button found in the Lens Correction tool
5) You will be prompted for a name of the correction - it's a good idea to use it to describe things like the lens and aperture used.
6) You have now created a custom white correction - to see it's effect on the currently loaded image check the Custom white checkbox.
7) To apply the custom white correction you can follow the same methods as when applying any other adjustment to a range of images using either the Modify dialog or the Modify Lens Corrections of Selected Files option in the Lens tool preset menu.
8) If this correction is one that you might want to save for future use you can simply create a Lens Adjustment preset with the correction active.
This applies to Phocus 1.1 or later MAC ONLY.
The current Phocus for the PC does not have tis feature yet. We have to wait for version 1.1 to come out.
However if you are a PC person like myself the custom white balance feature does work on FlexColor.
One note: I still use a translucent card over the lens like way I did it with my PhaseOne back. I haven't tried the shooting a neutral gray surface yet.
I hope this helps,
Bob
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To add a little more info, I went with Leaf because of the functionality of the gain adjuster. Not only does it correct any color shifts with wide angle lenses, It also corrects lens fall off. The other advantage if you shoot tethered you can upload the gain adjuster and have a correct file that can be opened in Leaf LC, Lightroom Photoshop among other programs. What other back can do that?
John
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Thanks to everyone for the replies so far.
John,
According to Thierry's post #2, Sinar's eXposure also allows
saving the white shading and/or vignette correction into the raw file as well.
Correct, Thierry?
Do Phase and Hasselblad users have or want this same capability?
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Interesting, BJNY,
I wonder does it handle the asymmetrical vignetting that you get with a shifted shot?
.. and yes, would love that for Phase one.
Cheers
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Dear John,
the Sinarback and eXposure software can do this as well, opening a corrected (shading and/or vignetting correction) file directly in LR, Aperture, ACR, etc ...,all DNG compatible applications. No problem at all.
Do you know if the Leaf software can apply the shadings (gain adjuster) on as many files as wished, automatically, with the right shading to the right files, in a batch process?
Best regards,
Thierry
To add a little more info, I went with Leaf because of the functionality of the gain adjuster. Not only does it correct any color shifts with wide angle lenses, It also corrects lens fall off. The other advantage if you shoot tethered you can upload the gain adjuster and have a correct file that can be opened in Leaf LC, Lightroom Photoshop among other programs. What other back can do that?
John
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Yes, absolutely correct Billy, of course, otherwise it would not make much sense for an efficient workflow.
And of course, the shadings can be saved for further use, but that goes without having to mention.
But more importantly is to know if the software can apply AUTOMATICALLY the shadings to as many files as chosen/available to be shaded, with the right shading applied: this is what saves time and what is important, and not having to apply one by one.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thanks to everyone for the replies so far.
John,
According to Thierry's post #2, Sinar's eXposure also allows
saving the white shading and/or vignette correction into the raw file as well.
Correct, Thierry?
Do Phase and Hasselblad users have or want this same capability?
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Jon,
yes, it does, since the vignetting correction is included in the shading file, and can be applied, with different strength, or not. If not applied, then only the color cast is corrected.
This is also a must, if one wants efficiency and an optimal and fast workflow.
Best regards,
Thierry
Interesting, BJNY,
I wonder does it handle the asymmetrical vignetting that you get with a shifted shot?
.. and yes, would love that for Phase one.
Cheers
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I would recommend to use the same f-stop, of course, with the same camera movement (shift, tilt or swing or whatever), obviously.
In this respect, let me say that this "Shading" tool has been developed with the help and instructions of Rainer Viertlböck: he can certainly jump in and give the reasons what is the idea and why it has been done the way it is, needing himself and using shadings on a daily basis. I think he may have much more to say, from a practical point of view.
Best regards,
Thierry
the shading plug-in was planned as part of the artec poject. From the beginning of the artec project i insisted that an adaequate software solution has to be part of the project and i was asked to implement its features and how they should work with the software crew by sinar. - it does not make much sense to create an architecture camera without thinking in the software which has to correct the unsymmetric shifts and fall offs of the lenses.
For me the workflow is beside the file quality the key point for such setup ( for the camera as for the sw ). the white shading plugin in exposure allows very fast and logic batch processing of the files. As in the brumbaer tools before the intent is to allow an intuitive batch workflow, where you can do other things meanwhile the program corrects the colorshifts / light fall offs. Further i.m.o. its a must that these files can be converted afterwards in third party konverters.
Btw. because the color shifts and the vignetations can be softened ( as long you dont (ab)use them to correct other issues as centerfold ) there is absolute no noise added, equally in which iso setting and with which exposure time one creates them. The emotion75 backs allow absoulte noisefree exposures till 32 seconds, with and without white shadings.
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Chris,
Surely the point is that the cast is partly dependent on the aperture?
@BJNY
In my experience the LCC doesn't correct for falloff, and I use a CF as a result. I'd be interested in hearing any other nifty and efficient solutions to correcting fall off though
Jon,
If you don't want to adjust with the exposure with opening up the aperture, you can either do it with shutter speed or possibly in the Capture One software. From one of the other posts it sounds like you adjust the ISO, but I have not tried that personally.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
877-217-9870 | National
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Thanks for the informative replies, all. Given me something to think about there.
Cheers
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To add a little more info, I went with Leaf because of the functionality of the gain adjuster. Not only does it correct any color shifts with wide angle lenses, It also corrects lens fall off. The other advantage if you shoot tethered you can upload the gain adjuster and have a correct file that can be opened in Leaf LC, Lightroom Photoshop among other programs. What other back can do that?
John
John,
Would you mind detailing your procedure?
Wondering if you save a raw with vignetting correction first ,
then another raw with with vignetting & gain applied?
Thanks,
Billy
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When I need to add exposure to the LCC in Capture One I temporarily raise the ISO, So I don't have to mess with camera or strobe settings.
Thanks for the GREAT tip, David.
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Thanks to everyone for the replies so far.
John,
According to Thierry's post #2, Sinar's eXposure also allows
saving the white shading and/or vignette correction into the raw file as well.
Correct, Thierry?
Do Phase and Hasselblad users have or want this same capability?
Yes, the correction is saved into the Raw file.
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Hi,
For Hasselblad backs here is some info:
There is a feature in Phocus called Custom White Balance.
Here is the only instructions I've found on this:
Custom white correction
This feature allows you to correct for things like cast issues when using tilt and shift. User interface for this has been added to the lens correction tool. The procedure is as follows:
1) Make a calibration image of a neutral gray surface - the best results are obtained by using an opaque filter. The capture can be made either tethered or untethered.
2) The calibration image needs to be available as a 3F file so if it was captured untethered you will need to import it.
3) Load an image where you'd like to apply the correction
4) Select the thumbnail of the calibration image and click the Create button found in the Lens Correction tool
5) You will be prompted for a name of the correction - it's a good idea to use it to describe things like the lens and aperture used.
6) You have now created a custom white correction - to see it's effect on the currently loaded image check the Custom white checkbox.
7) To apply the custom white correction you can follow the same methods as when applying any other adjustment to a range of images using either the Modify dialog or the Modify Lens Corrections of Selected Files option in the Lens tool preset menu.
8) If this correction is one that you might want to save for future use you can simply create a Lens Adjustment preset with the correction active.
This applies to Phocus 1.1 or later MAC ONLY.
The current Phocus for the PC does not have tis feature yet. We have to wait for version 1.1 to come out.
However if you are a PC person like myself the custom white balance feature does work on FlexColor.
One note: I still use a translucent card over the lens like way I did it with my PhaseOne back. I haven't tried the shooting a neutral gray surface yet.
I hope this helps,
Bob
Thanks Bob for saving me the trouble!
The improvement in Phocus with Custom White meant that untethered captures can now benefit from CW corrections whereas with FlexColor it only really worked with tethered captures until later on in its life.
It is much more straight forward with Phocus.
Best,
David
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Yes, the correction is saved into the Raw file.
Can it be "saved as" an alternate raw file
leaving the original raw intact for whatever reason?
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Can it be "saved as" an alternate raw file
leaving the original raw intact for whatever reason?
I haven't tried in practice but, yes you could have an uncorrected image and then a corrected one for comparison.
Especially if you have saved a library of CW shots.
David
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So David, chroma noise is independent of ISO?
I ask because I've never thought to test that out.
The Chroma noise question is very interesting. I have used both Phase and Leaf backs.
It is my understanding that if you shoot an image with low chroma noise but use a white reference frame with high chroma noise, then the noise which is corrected out of the reference file gets added into the image you are trying to correct in the end. I can think of two examples... 1. shoot the image at 100 ISO and then shoot the reference file at 400 ISO. or 2. Shoot the image at 5 seconds and then shoot the reference file at 20 seconds.
I believe that the color casts can be f-stop dependent, so I have always used a longer exposure, or a brighter light source to make the reference file. If I am using strobes I can point a head at the lens after the main bracket is finished. If I am shooting in sun, I will often turn the camera into the sun and don't change the exposure at all. This last method also provides a great way to color balance an image. If these two options aren't available I just make a longer exposure.
I would not be surprised if the fall-off correction of the Dalsa backs (both Leaf and Sinar) might also have the same effects on luminance noise as all the backs have on chroma noise with the color cast corrections.
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I haven't tried in practice but, yes you could have an uncorrected image and then a corrected one for comparison.
Especially if you have saved a library of CW shots.
David
David, what do you mean the color uniformity correction is saved "into the file"? If I open that file in Adobe Camera RAW is the color cast still there, or has the color cast been written out of the file entirely?
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Eric,
Thanks! for chiming in.
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Eric,
Thanks! for chiming in.
Thanks David. I learned a lot about this topic on this site back in 2006 when I jumped in with both feet.
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yes, chroma and luminance noise is added with white shots if they are not softened.
if the purpose of the white shots (as i said above) is only to correct lens color casts and fall off the white files can be softened a lot, cause the casts and fall off dont have sharp edges.
if the white files are softened enough there is no more L or Cr noise in them, independent of its iso or exp.times.
but this softening can not be done if the white files are at the same time used to correct issues which have sharp edges, as centerfolds or dust removal.
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Hi Rainer,
How to go about softening?
Thanks,
Billy
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Hi Rainer,
How to go about softening?
Thanks,
Billy
you cant do that. this depends on the method how the white shadings are created and applied by the different programs.
resulting quality is very different. workflos too, so its worth to take a real closer look to these programs. you can save hundreds(!) of hours and the quality and or limitations of these shadings can be very different. i.m.o. its a key feature if a back is used with shift lenses.
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Billy,
What Rainer says, is that the purpose of the white shots in the Sinar eXposure is only to correct lens color casts and fall off and therefore the white files can be softened a lot (by eXposure, not by the user).
This simply because the "shading" tool in eXposure does NOT need to be used for "Centerfold", "Dust", etc ... issues: that's done as well, in eXposure, and automatically, BUT NOT in the shading / vignetting correction tool.
The question being if other applications are doing this (centerfold & dust removal) during the shading or not: some certainly are, from my knowledge, and in this case the shadings cannot be softened by the software.
Best regards,
Thierry
Hi Rainer,
How to go about softening?
Thanks,
Billy
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This question remains unanswered for me, while it is the basic one to ask and to know and while this point is exactly what saves hours of work.
It is well understood that one can apply one particular shading to a number of selected images, but that's not relevant
If one has to re-start the shading process with each new shading to be applied (to other files needing a different shading), then the workflow is dramatically affected and hours of work are necessary: does anybody know if other application can apply different shadings to different images, automatically and in a batch?
Thanks,
Thierry
... More importantly is to know if the software can apply AUTOMATICALLY the shadings to as many files as chosen/available to be shaded, with the right shading applied: this is what saves time and what is important, and not having to apply one by one.
Best regards,
Thierry
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This question remains unanswered for me, while it is the basic one to ask and to know and while this point is exactly what saves hours of work.
It is well understood that one can apply one particular shading to a number of selected images, but that's not relevant
If one has to re-start the shading process with each new shading to be applied (to other files needing a different shading), then the workflow is dramatically affected and hours of work are necessary: does anybody know if other application can apply different shadings to different images, automatically and in a batch?
Thanks,
Thierry
Thierry, Phase one does not have a batch feature for lens cast. I select the reference file, shift select the remainder of images in the bracket, click the LCC button and choose "analyze" from the pulldown menu (the correction is now created with and applied to the reference file), then shift+cmd+c, then shift+cmd+v will copy the correction and paste it to the remaining files.
I just tried this out for your reference, and it takes about 10 seconds per setup. So if I shoot 20 setups in one day, then it takes 3 minutes 20 seconds to do the lens cast corrections.
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Dear Eric,
thank you for the details how it works. I guess the "analyze" part does not take long, otherwise it would be some time time to wait until this is done, then applied with copy/paste, and then continue with the next shading file.
But anyway, can one then take these corrected files and go to any DNG application, or does one have to use C1?
Thank you very much,
Thierry
Thierry, Phase one does not have a batch feature for lens cast. I select the reference file, shift select the remainder of images in the bracket, click the LCC button and choose "analyze" from the pulldown menu (the correction is now created with and applied to the reference file), then shift+cmd+c, then shift+cmd+v will copy the correction and paste it to the remaining files.
I just tried this out for your reference, and it takes about 10 seconds per setup. So if I shoot 20 setups in one day, then it takes 3 minutes 20 seconds to do the lens cast corrections.
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It has to stay in C1 you can make a variant of the original raw with the new corrections applied so in the C1 browser you can actually have both. You can also make a preset and save it for future use. Lot's of folks actually make a library with there lenses and the LCC corrections than name it for those conditions and than apply it for others as well. But yes to analyze only takes a couple seconds. Hold it I take that back you can process it to a DNG file. Just tried it and it opened right up in CS4 with ACR. I'm sure you can bring it into LR as well.
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so, if I understand it right, you make the corrections, file(s) by file(s), by creating first the shading with the "Analyze" function and then apply them to the files. And then you do the DNG conversion in C1 to finally open them in DNG compatible applications?
It has to stay in C1 you can make a variant of the original raw with the new corrections applied so in the C1 browser you can actually have both. You can also make a preset and save it for future use. Lot's of folks actually make a library with there lenses and the LCC corrections than name it for those conditions and than apply it for others as well. But yes to analyze only takes a couple seconds. Hold it I take that back you can process it to a DNG file. Just tried it and it opened right up in CS4 with ACR. I'm sure you can bring it into LR as well.
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Yes you can make a DNG for other programs if you want or just stay in C1 , which i would think most folks do and just output to your 16 bit Tif files. You have the option to do either.
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Thank you.
So it is basically a step more, when you wish to go to DNG applications. How long does a DNG conversion take, for one image?
Yes you can make a DNG for other programs if you want or just stay in C1 , which i would think most folks do and just output to your 16 bit Tif files. You have the option to do either.
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Yes it would be a step more in a sense either you pick DNG or Tif as your output but only takes a 2 seconds and opened into the ACR window in CS4 ( Very Fast). I did notice something interesting here my original Raw file from my P25 is 27.5 mg than the outputted DNG jumped to 43.5 mgs
Of course you do not have to open in ACR if you don't want and just batch to a folder than work with them later. Also in C 1 you can add processing recipes in which at the same time process a jpeg, tif and/or a DNG into a folder or really any size you want. Pretty powerful setup
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and that is a shaded DNG, which opens in ACR and with 43.5 MB?
Yes it would be a step more in a sense either you pick DNG or Tif as your output but only takes a 2 seconds and opened into the ACR window in CS4 ( Very Fast). I did notice something interesting here my original Raw file from my P25 is 27.5 mg than the outputted DNG jumped to 43.5 mgs
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Yes that is the analyzed file that you did . I think the shading file and the analyzed file are just using a different naming convention but are the same as i understand it in the Sinar software. Not exactly sure how the Sinar software works so please correct me if I have that wrong
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I think it would be less confusing to use "LCC'ed" than "analyzed".
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no, the shading file remains the shading file, always. The shaded image created with this shading file is saved separately (wherever one chooses to), so that you always keep your original (RAW) one. The nice part of the Sinar workflow is that all happens in one single step: a DNG shaded file, with lens vignetting correction, with centerfold (done before), etc ...
Yes that is the analyzed file that you did . I think the shading file and the analyzed file are just using a different naming convention but are the same as i understand it in the Sinar software. Not exactly sure how the Sinar software works so please correct me if I have that wrong
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I think it would be less confusing to use "LCC'ed" than "analyzed".
Probably right Billy
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Thierry -
With C1 the LCC file is a raw file, once it has been selected LCC file C1 and saved as a preset, C1 incorporates that into its preferences and stores the data somewhere. I know where those LCC preferences are stored (on a Mac), but I do not know where it actually puts the raw data. The original raw file wish is source LCC file is always there and can be saved for later recall.
As for the file being corrected, the LCC can be changed at any time in C1. I had numerous presets for the same lens which I created in the studio and then applied to all subsequent images whether shot in the studio or outdoors. My standard grouping of LCC presets for a lens was -
1) 80mm Landscape, wide-open @ 6 Feet
2) 80mm Landscape, wide-open @ infinity
3) 80mm Landscape, F11 @ 6 Feet
4) 80mm Landscape, F11 @ infinity
5) 80mm Portrait, wide-open @ 6 Feet
6) 80mm Portrait, wide-open @ infinity
7) 80mm Portrait, F11 @ 6 Feet
8) 80mm Portrait, F11 @ infinity
In practice I found #4 and #8 worked for just about everything taken with a 80mm lenses. The other versions had subtle differences. If #4 or #8 didn't work well enough, then I'd try the other variants. Since it's just a drop down menu (with all the presets), toggling between the LCC was very easy. One thing that I always felt influenced the effectiveness was the white balance. If the picture was 4000K and the LCC was created at 5500k, then correction didn't seem quite as effective. Usually my stock LCC's were good enough that I didn't worry about it.
It's been nearly a year since using C1 with a Phase back, so I may be wrong here, but I thought in C1 Version 4 the LCC settings could be copied and applied to subsequent files?
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Thierry -
With C1 the LCC file is a raw file, once it has been selected LCC file C1 and saved as a preset, C1 incorporates that into its preferences and stores the data somewhere. I know where those LCC preferences are stored (on a Mac), but I do not know where it actually puts the raw data. The original raw file wish is source LCC file is always there and can be saved for later recall.
As for the file being corrected, the LCC can be changed at any time in C1. I had numerous presets for the same lens which I created in the studio and then applied to all subsequent images whether shot in the studio or outdoors. My standard grouping of LCC presets for a lens was -
1) 80mm Landscape, wide-open @ 6 Feet
2) 80mm Landscape, wide-open @ infinity
3) 80mm Landscape, F11 @ 6 Feet
4) 80mm Landscape, F11 @ infinity
5) 80mm Portrait, wide-open @ 6 Feet
6) 80mm Portrait, wide-open @ infinity
7) 80mm Portrait, F11 @ 6 Feet
8) 80mm Portrait, F11 @ infinity
In practice I found #4 and #8 worked for just about everything taken with a 80mm lenses. The other versions had subtle differences. If #4 or #8 didn't work well enough, then I'd try the other variants. Since it's just a drop down menu (with all the presets), toggling between the LCC was very easy. One thing that I always felt influenced the effectiveness was the white balance. If the picture was 4000K and the LCC was created at 5500k, then correction didn't seem quite as effective. Usually my stock LCC's were good enough that I didn't worry about it.
It's been nearly a year since using C1 with a Phase back, so I may be wrong here, but I thought in C1 Version 4 the LCC settings could be copied and applied to subsequent files?
Yes they can be copied and pasted to one or as many files as needed.
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Thierry -
With C1 the LCC file is a raw file, once it has been selected LCC file C1 and saved as a preset, C1 incorporates that into its preferences and stores the data somewhere. I know where those LCC preferences are stored (on a Mac), but I do not know where it actually puts the raw data. The original raw file wish is source LCC file is always there and can be saved for later recall.
As for the file being corrected, the LCC can be changed at any time in C1. I had numerous presets for the same lens which I created in the studio and then applied to all subsequent images whether shot in the studio or outdoors. My standard grouping of LCC presets for a lens was -
1) 80mm Landscape, wide-open @ 6 Feet
2) 80mm Landscape, wide-open @ infinity
3) 80mm Landscape, F11 @ 6 Feet
4) 80mm Landscape, F11 @ infinity
5) 80mm Portrait, wide-open @ 6 Feet
6) 80mm Portrait, wide-open @ infinity
7) 80mm Portrait, F11 @ 6 Feet
8) 80mm Portrait, F11 @ infinity
In practice I found #4 and #8 worked for just about everything taken with a 80mm lenses. The other versions had subtle differences. If #4 or #8 didn't work well enough, then I'd try the other variants. Since it's just a drop down menu (with all the presets), toggling between the LCC was very easy. One thing that I always felt influenced the effectiveness was the white balance. If the picture was 4000K and the LCC was created at 5500k, then correction didn't seem quite as effective. Usually my stock LCC's were good enough that I didn't worry about it.
It's been nearly a year since using C1 with a Phase back, so I may be wrong here, but I thought in C1 Version 4 the LCC settings could be copied and applied to subsequent files?
with not shifteable lenses i have the same experience. one white reference @f8 or f11 is usually enough. with shift lenses i strictly shoot before every scene a white file.
i dont find it sufficient to apply pre- produced white references for this purpose ( shifted lenses ).
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no, the shading file remains the shading file, always. The shaded image created with this shading file is saved separately (wherever one chooses to), so that you always keep your original (RAW) one. The nice part of the Sinar workflow is that all happens in one single step: a DNG shaded file, with lens vignetting correction, with centerfold (done before), etc ...
Thierry,
Can you take the corrected DNG file back into Sinar's software for final adjustments and processing into an RGB file?
Can you worked tethered in the Sinar software and have the incoming files use the currently selected shading reference?
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how works phocus? does it allow to export corrected dngs or similar files which can be opened in 3.party sw?
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hi Eric,
Thierry,
Can you take the corrected DNG file back into Sinar's software for final adjustments and processing into an RGB file?
Yes, of course you can, why not? One can even create TIF or JPG shaded files (directly, without first doing it on the DNG)
Can you worked tethered in the Sinar software and have the incoming files use the currently selected shading reference?
Yes, tethered or un-tethered.
Best regards,
Thierry
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hi Eric,
Yes, of course you can, why not? One can even create TIF or JPG shaded files (directly, without first doing it on the DNG)
Yes, tethered or un-tethered.
Best regards,
Thierry
That is all good. Those were holes in the Sinar software when I was shown it by a rep in Los Angeles in late 2006. This is when I ended up going to Phase One. It seems all the brands have reach a much higher level of maturity with their color uniformity correction. I was shown the latest Leaf solution in New York just last October and it seemed very user friendly and fast.
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Hi Eric, I remember that demo, Thats why i stayed with the Leaf back through all the turmoil to get a good working gain adjuster. That rep from Sinar is now with Leaf.
That is all good. Those were holes in the Sinar software when I was shown it by a rep in Los Angeles in late 2006. This is when I ended up going to Phase One. It seems all the brands have reach a much higher level of maturity with their color uniformity correction. I was shown the latest Leaf solution in New York just last October and it seemed very user friendly and fast.
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I also want to clarify a few comments from other posts. It sounded like I said Leaf was the only company to have a lens fall off solution. I just talked about Leaf since that is what I own, and shoot with. I never said anything about any other manufactures having or not having a solution. I went with Leaf when I purchased my back because they where the only company to have a working correction. I had a lot of issue with it, but Leaf came through with a fast and easy workflow.
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Yes Erich, since 2006 a lot of things have changed, for the good, from each manufacturer, IMO.
I understand and recognize that all applications do somehow have a good working shading tool. Differences can however be found in the way one has to handle the files, how many steps it needs to get a (shaded) DNG ready to go straight into DNG applications, if it allows vignetting correction at the same time when the shading is applied, or needs another step, if it does allow for the softening or not (when the shading is used at the same time by the tool to correct centerfold and dust issues, which leads to differences in IQ) of the shading file, if an automated batch process with different shadings is possible, etc ...
Thanks for your information,
Thierry
That is all good. Those were holes in the Sinar software when I was shown it by a rep in Los Angeles in late 2006. This is when I ended up going to Phase One. It seems all the brands have reach a much higher level of maturity with their color uniformity correction. I was shown the latest Leaf solution in New York just last October and it seemed very user friendly and fast.
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I also want to clarify a few comments from other posts. It sounded like I said Leaf was the only company to have a lens fall off solution. I just talked about Leaf since that is what I own, and shoot with. I never said anything about any other manufactures having or not having a solution. I went with Leaf when I purchased my back because they where the only company to have a working correction. I had a lot of issue with it, but Leaf came through with a fast and easy workflow.
i want to remember in the brumbaer tools. they exist since beginning of 2006 and have been the first solution which allowed cast corrrection, centerfold correction and lens fall off correction as well as the fastest dng workflow, as i believe till today.
several companies at that stage even havent admitted to their clients to have any of these issues with their backs.
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If i am not mistaken Leaf had a working correction in V8 before that? I also believe the brumbaer tool did not work tethered? It also dropped Leaf support.
This is starting to sound like a play ground conversation, mine is better then yours.
i want to remember in the brumbaer tools. they exist since beginning of 2006 and have been the first solution which allowed cast correction, centerfold correction and lens fall off correction as well as the fastest dng workflow, as i believe till today.
several companies at that stage even havent admitted to their clients to have any of these issues with their backs.
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Yes Erich, since 2006 a lot of things have changed, for the good, from each manufacturer, IMO.
I understand and recognize that all applications do somehow have a good working shading tool. Differences can however be found in the way one has to handle the files, how many steps it needs to get a (shaded) DNG ready to go straight into DNG applications, if it allows vignetting correction at the same time when the shading is applied, or needs another step, if it does allow for the softening or not (when the shading is used at the same time by the tool to correct centerfold and dust issues, which leads to differences in IQ) of the shading file, if an automated batch process with different shadings is possible, etc ...
Thanks for your information,
Thierry
With the Sinar setup this sounds like you need to do the shading tool in one program than output to DNG for another program to actually process this. Am I reading this correctly. Reason I ask in C1 all we do is make those corrections with the shading tool( also vignetting control and other fixes) as you call it than apply that through copy and paste to the images you want to process than go ahead in C1 to output to a final Tiff so everything is within the same program. So really no need to output a DNG unless someone happens to like Lightroom instead. Is this the case that you use two programs to get the final Tiff output, than I can see the worry of extra steps and the timing of that.
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Not at all: the DNG is there, at the first place, no need to output to DNG: IT IS a DNG, from the beginning, with or without shading, lens vignetting correction or whatever. Means no other step, only 1.
Now, if you don't want a DNG, then you can OF COURSE as well do these shading or other corrections and get a Tiff or even Jpg in eXposure.
No need of 2 applications, but you have the possibility and the DNGs directly if you want to go to LR, ACR, Aperture, Raw Developer, etc ..., even in C1.
With the Sinar setup this sounds like you need to do the shading tool in one program than output to DNG for another program to actually process this. Am I reading this correctly. Reason I ask in C1 all we do is make those corrections with the shading tool as you call it than apply that through copy and paste to the images you want to process than go ahead in C1 to output to a final Tiff so everything is within the same program. So really no need to output a DNG unless someone happens to like Lightroom instead. Is this the case that you use two programs to get the final Tiff output, than I can see the worry of extra steps and the timing of that.
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If i am not mistaken Leaf had a working correction in V8 before that? I also believe the brumbaer tool did not work tethered? It also dropped Leaf support.
This is starting to sound like a play ground conversation, mine is better then yours.
if i remember well at that time no centerfolds "officially" existed, not by sinar not by leaf and phase and imacon started to admit at that time that color shifts with kodak sensors were more than a problem of a few individual users who had bad luck with their back ( and who always have been the only ones who had this effect ) .
for me this is one of the reasons why mf lost so much attraction for many people, i mean this tools should have existed 3 or 4 years before or at least n the moment the backs have been sold in the market.
anyway, now the tools are out from all ( what about phocus ?) .
lucky customers who have not been in the first row.
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Not at all: the DNG is there, at the first place, no need to output to DNG: IT IS a DNG, from the beginning, with or without shading, lens vignetting correction or whatever. Means no other step, only 1.
Now, if you don't want a DNG, then you can OF COURSE as well do these shading or other corrections and get a Tiff or even Jpg in eXposure.
No need of 2 applications, but you have the possibility and the DNGs directly if you want to go to LR, ACR, Aperture, Raw Developer, etc ..., even in C1.
Okay thanks for some reason and maybe what i saw in the past was two programs just was not sure.
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If i am not mistaken Leaf had a working correction in V8 before that? I also believe the brumbaer tool did not work tethered? It also dropped Leaf support.
This is starting to sound like a play ground conversation, mine is better then yours.
Actually I don't look at it this way but more to get a understanding how each of these programs work. If there something that another back maker is using than it maybe a good idea that you can get your back maker to look into applying that in your software. Frankly i consider the software and raw processing programs to be extremely important in your buying decision. I happened to use C1 from my Canon 1ds days so for me that was already in play before I bought my back. So it did help in deciding.
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yes, agreed, we have a (IMO) very interesting question (thanks Billy!) and the opportunity to all answer and explain the workflow in details in the different MF solutions, and then discuss the advantages and disadvantages of each, then I don't see it as a "playground discussion".
Thierry
Actually I don't look at it this way but more to get a understanding how each of these programs work. If there something that another back maker is using than it maybe a good idea that you can get your back maker to look into applying that in your software. Frankly i consider the software and raw processing programs to be extremely important in your buying decision. I happened to use C1 from my Canon 1ds days so for me that was already in play before I bought my back. So it did help in deciding.
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What would actually be a nice idea is each program a video demo from each company actually show how each program works in detail. I think that would be interesting. I know a stretch but a interesting concept. Gotta run to a gig, Have fun.
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David, what do you mean the color uniformity correction is saved "into the file"? If I open that file in Adobe Camera RAW is the color cast still there, or has the color cast been written out of the file entirely?
I was referring to using our Phocus software. If you wanted to use camera RAW then you would export a DNG file, where the correction would be applied.
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What would actually be a nice idea is each program a video demo from each company actually show how each program works in detail.
This was my hope for this thread.
At the very least, a series of screenshots.
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Well, then I am in line with your expectations, since my screenshots are there!
Best regards,
Thierry
This was my hope for this thread.
At the very least, a series of screenshots.
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I need it every step by step.
Isn't there a utility that allows movie recording of one's desktop?
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My Leaf Gain process.
Taking
0) Shoot at ISO 100 to minimise noise. (I find 50 too clean and 200 not always clean enough).
1) After taking the shot, place the diffuser over the lens.
2) Lengthen exposure time by 2 stops take a white shot
3) Lengthen exposure time by 3 stops take a white shot
Aperture must not be changed as this alters colour casts.
Processing
4) Open the leaf MOS files in Leaf Capture
5) Select the files I wish to apply the 'Gain' adjustment to
6) In the setup dialog for the adjustment set the 'falloff' percentage as appropriate (see below)
7) Identify (with a radio button) whether the gain file is the first or last in the shot sequence, its generally last with me.
8) Close the setup dialog.
9) Select a target directory to save the gain adjusted files to
10) Click on the process button/icon to trigger the creation of the adjusted Raw files
11) Import adjusted files into Lightroom for basic grading and further editing.
NB:
In step 6: I try to mimize the use of falloff correction as I find it affects overall exposure level. I generally need a max of 50% with the 24mm digitar but usually get away with less, maybe 0-25% for my other LF lenses.
This procedure also eliminates any errant dust spots, initially I was annoyed at having to use the gain step, but the advantage of zapping dust makes the initial up front effort less problematic as it saves some time in post.
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Thanks, free.
Is the falloff correction infinitely adjustable, or is it in 25% steps.
If the falloff correction affects exposure level, does a lighter capture solve this?
Billy
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This was my hope for this thread.
At the very least, a series of screenshots.
(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/41495Picture%2017.jpg)
Very straight forward in our case:
Post capture:
1. Choose "mos" as your output format
2. Press "Settings"
3. Set the order of the files First/ Last and the falloff correction value (anything from 0-100)
4. Press OK
5. Set your destination folder (I usually use the captures folder) and hit "Process"
This takes 3-4 seconds per file on a decent machine and while it's running you can set your next set, shoot, process into another format or whatever.
When tethered you can either load a "user" calibration file to the back:
(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/58838Picture%2018.jpg)(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/87341Picture%2019.jpg)
(it can be used for untethered work as well, for example on an ALPA TC with no movements)
Or you can use a wizzard to create a user gain file:
(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/5893Picture%2020.jpg)(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/93841Picture%2022.jpg)
Etc.
Yair
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I was referring to using our Phocus software. If you wanted to use camera RAW then you would export a DNG file, where the correction would be applied.
Thanks David.
With Leaf, the RAW file is re-written without the color casts (if I view the RAW in bridge the color casts are no longer there). With Phase, the cast correction is a set of processing instructions (if I view the RAW is Bridge the casts are still there).
What I was trying to understand was if Hasselblad was treating the process more like Leaf (re-writing the RAW file), or like Phase (creating a set of processing instructions).
The Phase method offers the advantage of speed, but until they came out with the DNG option it was impossible to correct the raw files and then process them in third party software. It didn't bother me too much because Capture One is very good with the phase files.
The Leaf method was (in the past) slow, but the re-written raw file was totally free of color casts and could be processed through any application. I think the process is much quicker now.
One reason this issue is important is because Phase dropped support for corrections made in earlier versions of C1 Pro. If I want to process any pictures I made previous to using 4.5, then I have to re-do to LCC correction each time. The Leaf files I have from 2006 are all re-written files without casts. They are, in this way, more archival and more portable/compatible than the Phase One RAW files.
Both Leaf and Sinar are generating new files where the color cast simply don't exist. I understand that with Phase and Hasselblad that it is possible to output a "cast-free" DNG file, but it is not clear to me how the original Hasselblad RAW file is handled.
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No problem Eric!
When I am back in the office on Thursday Ill take Yair's lead and show you the how-to with a few screen dumps.
I hope that is soon enough for you.
Best,
David
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No problem Eric!
When I am back in the office on Thursday Ill take Yair's lead and show you the how-to with a few screen dumps.
I hope that is soon enough for you.
Best,
David
Please do this for both Flexcolor and Phocus.
Kumar
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One reason this issue is important is because Phase dropped support for corrections made in earlier versions of C1 Pro. If I want to process any pictures I made previous to using 4.5, then I have to re-do to LCC correction each time. The Leaf files I have from 2006 are all re-written files without casts. They are, in this way, more archival and more portable/compatible than the Phase One RAW files.
Both Leaf and Sinar are generating new files where the color cast simply don't exist. I understand that with Phase and Hasselblad that it is possible to output a "cast-free" DNG file, but it is not clear to me how the original Hasselblad RAW file is handled.
Ouch having to re-do cast corrections sounds like quite an irritation, I didn't realise how lucky I was with the Leaf gain. The re-writing of files is a real boon if you want to (as I do) finish post in a variety of different raw converters as I use Lightroom for bog standard stuff and Raw Developer occasionally when I want to eke out the maximum detail.
Just in case it wasn't clear to BJNY's question, you can vary fall off correction in LC at any amount between 0 and 100%
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No problem Eric!
When I am back in the office on Thursday Ill take Yair's lead and show you the how-to with a few screen dumps.
I hope that is soon enough for you.
Best,
David
Hello David,
If you're not too busy reading the financial papers...
Thanks,
Kumar
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Hello David,
If you're not too busy reading the financial papers...
Thanks,
Kumar
;-)
Hey Kumar,
Sorry this thread slipped my mind! Ill do it now.
David
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So here is the process in Phocus...
1. Load up your custom white shot in Phocus (either shooting tethered or from a CF card). This is the shot we are all used to, ie through a plexi filter etc etc.
2. Click 'Create' in the Lens Corrections tool...
[attachment=11882:Picture_1.png]
3. Give it a useful name. Could be '23mm +5mm Shift' for example if you were building a lens correction library. Or it could relate to a specific image
[attachment=11883:Picture_2.png]
4. Check the Custom White box to apply to the current image. Loading up any other image will retain the custom white setting you made, you just tick the box if you want to apply it or not. The name of the Custom White setting (so you know which one you are using!) is named to the right (23mm + 5m...) in this case.
[attachment=11884:Picture_3.png]
5. If you want to use it at a later date, you can create a preset by clicking on the small arrow at the top of the Lens Corrections tool.
[attachment=11885:Picture_4.png]
6. Then it can be recalled at any time.
[attachment=11886:Picture_5.png]
I hope that helps!
Note - if you want to do a batch correction of images, look in the image above and you will see the option 'Modify Lens Corrections of Selected files'. So if you select a bunch of images you can make a batch modification like so. Or you could use the more extensive 'Modify' dialogue.
The process also works for tethered capture. Shoot CW, Apply, shoot further images.
David
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Thanks, David. Is it the same in Flexcolor? I have an older laptop that won't run Phocus.
Kumar
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FlexColor is not quite as advanced I am afraid.
It was written primarily for tethered captures. ie. Shoot Custom White, Apply, Shoot actual Image, and not much flexibility otherwise.
However, if you have captured some images to CF card, or an Image Bank, if you import the CW shot, apply it and then import further captures, they should also have the CW applied.
I am going from memory and haven't tried in a while, but have a go and let me know if it doesn't do the trick.
Best,
David
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FlexColor is not quite as advanced I am afraid.
It was written primarily for tethered captures. ie. Shoot Custom White, Apply, Shoot actual Image, and not much flexibility otherwise.
However, if you have captured some images to CF card, or an Image Bank, if you import the CW shot, apply it and then import further captures, they should also have the CW applied.
I am going from memory and haven't tried in a while, but have a go and let me know if it doesn't do the trick.
Best,
David
David,
The Phocus version looks great!!!
Right now I can only use the FlexColor version being on the PC format.
I know the software developers have been busy on the Firmware upgrade but any indication on when a Phocus PC version with this feature will be available? Even as a beta...
Thanks,
Bob