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Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: dseelig on February 05, 2009, 11:47:37 PM

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: dseelig on February 05, 2009, 11:47:37 PM
That is really about it I am thinking of selling my 1ds mk111 and going with 2 5d mk11's I have one 5d mk11 . I saw a post in another forum the 5d mk11 did not do so well in anartica what happened with it?
Thanks David
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: pegelli on February 06, 2009, 01:26:08 AM
It's closer than you think, see here (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=31592&hl=)
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: mrenters on February 06, 2009, 01:26:14 PM
As you've probably heard there were a number of 5D mk II cameras that failed on the Antarctic trip (6 of the 26 on the trip or 23%).  My wife and I accounted for 2 of those.  Both failed within minutes of each other during a shore outing with light rain.  Both were protected by Kata rain covers and both exhibited the same problem - the shutter release button appeared to be shorted out.  When the camera was turned on it would immediately take a picture (or multiple if the camera was in continuous shooting mode). At least some of the other failures on the trip were similar.

When we got back to the ship we dried them out and they eventually (mostly) revived.  My wife's acted up again as soon as it was even slightly humid and stopped working altogether in Buenos Aires at +35C, humid but sunny weather.

For a camera that is advertised as having "improved weather resistance" I can't say I'm impressed, and I'm even less so knowing that no other cameras had problems even though many of them were completely unprotected.

Both cameras were sent to Canon for repair and I received a call today saying there was corrosion at or near the shutter release and offering me the following options:

1) Have them fixed as best they could (free of charge) but without further warranty in case of internal failure
2) Trade them for new cameras at 50% off the retail price

I'm not convinced that this camera doesn't have serious problems with moisture compared to similar cameras from other manufacturers and I'm also not convinced I can trust the camera to work in anything other than warm dry air.

I like the camera otherwise and the images it produces are great, but if you can't rely on it, I don't know how useful it is. Make sure you carry a backup if there is any chance there could be moisture. I don't know if I'd buy it again given our experience.

Martin

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Dustbak on February 06, 2009, 02:03:08 PM
Quite a horror story.

What strikes me as really curious are the options proposed to you.

Repair free of charge but losing your warranty further down the road? Get a new one  for 50% off?

It appears your vendor (or Canon) acknowledges this is a malfunction that falls under warranty. It should be repaired with continued warranty or it should be replaced.

Or is this malfunction not covered by warranty?
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: button on February 06, 2009, 03:07:49 PM
Quote from: mrenters
1) Have them fixed as best they could (free of charge) but without further warranty in case of internal failure
2) Trade them for new cameras at 50% off the retail price

Please let us know what comes of your dealings with Canon.  Can you provide a reason for these options?

John
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: mrenters on February 06, 2009, 03:34:22 PM
Quote from: button
Please let us know what comes of your dealings with Canon.  Can you provide a reason for these options?

John

They said that water damage is not normally covered under warranty at all. As I understand it, if they fix it and the problem reoccurs, it will be difficult for them to determine whether it was caused by a new episode of water damage or the initial case and that their service people don't want to have to deal with that, hence the end of the warranty.

I don't know how or why they came up with the 50% discount on a new camera.

I'm a little torn about these options as I don't particularly think either one of them is ideal.  I don't want to (nor do I feel I should) pay $3000CDN for two new bodies if there is a design defect and the new bodies fail the next time they don't like the humidity or color of the sky.

Getting them fixed but being without a warranty on a camera that I have little confidence in isn't great either and I'm again faced with the situation of what will happen if the camera decides the conditions outside are more than feels like handling that day.

I am careful with all my gear and the use it got in Antarctica was by no means anything that could be even remotely considered abuse of the equipment.

Martin

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Rickard Hansson on February 06, 2009, 03:51:36 PM
Quote from: mrenters
They said that water damage is not normally covered under warranty at all. As I understand it, if they fix it and the problem reoccurs, it will be difficult for them to determine whether it was caused by a new episode of water damage or the initial case and that their service people don't want to have to deal with that, hence the end of the warranty.

I don't know how or why they came up with the 50% discount on a new camera.

I'm a little torn about these options as I don't particularly think either one of them is ideal.  I don't want to (nor do I feel I should) pay $3000CDN for two new bodies if there is a design defect and the new bodies fail the next time they don't like the humidity or color of the sky.

Getting them fixed but being without a warranty on a camera that I have little confidence in isn't great either and I'm again faced with the situation of what will happen if the camera decides the conditions outside are more than feels like handling that day.

I am careful with all my gear and the use it got in Antarctica was by no means anything that could be even remotely considered abuse of the equipment.

Martin



No insurance that might cover the expenses?
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: mrenters on February 06, 2009, 04:12:29 PM
Quote from: Rickard Hansson
No insurance that might cover the expenses?

No.

Martin

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Wayne Fox on February 06, 2009, 11:08:28 PM
I was about to put my 1DsMk3 up for sale and buy another 5dMk2 until I read the Antarctica report and this thread.

This is concerning, as is Canon's response so far.

I'm curious why this problem has surfaced with the 5DMk2, as it didn't appear to be much concern with 5D owners (at least I don't believe I've seen anything about it).  I assume previous Antarctica expeditions sported a fair number of 5D shooters?  I'd be curious if anyone from the previous trips has any insight on this. I am assuming they changed something ... and not for the better.

Perhaps this is a case of Canon not following the adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" - some bright engineer decided he could make a better shutter release button, or more likely save a buck or two with a change.

I've forwarded Michael's article and a link to this thread to a contact I have at Canon USA, and I'll be chatting with him about it at PMA.  Who knows if it will do any good, but this sounds like a design flaw to me.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Farmer on February 07, 2009, 12:23:27 AM
This is very odd.  Corrosion?  In the time frame of what, a few hours?  To be honest, it sounds like they accept that there was no user negligence and that it is a manufacturing failure - otherwise, once it's fixed, why wouldn't you continue warranty?  What else might cause the problem?

If it happened here, in Australia, I'd be pressing for warranty repair and full warranty to continue as normal.  What if you have some other fault with the unit, completely unrelated?  How can they deny warranty on that?

You can't cancel a warranty unless you can show user neglect, and if that's the case, why would you offer to repair it for free?  The offer smacks of "we know it's a warranty failure, but we don't want to admit it, so we'll try to make it sound like it's your fault but we won't flat out say that because then you might take legal action and we'd lose so we'll try to sweet talk it with an 'offer' to make you think we're being nice".

If it's not a warranty failure, deny the claim.  *IF* a good customer then presses you, then you might consider offering some sort of compromise as a business decision, but doing this sort of thing up front is just poor.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: bokehcambodia on February 07, 2009, 01:26:04 AM
Hello Martin,

sad to hear about your bad experiences with the 5DMKII. What a PITA it must be to worry on location with 2 bodies malfunctioning. I posted another topic a few days ago about the 5D and its mirror fall-out flaws.
The mirror fell out so far 3-times and the CANON service report also stated corrosion problems inside the body of the 5D.
As it was not used in rain, mainly indoor shoots, it only comes down to the general humidity. Thats for the 5D.
But I am surprised CANON quotes corrosion on a mint body the first time its sees the light  
I just speak for myself but I see the whole 5D-Series as not as reliable as any 20D-50D.

Michael

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 07, 2009, 01:35:29 AM
I'm very sympathetic with your problem. The problem is that cameras are specified for very benign working conditions, so if you use a camera outside the specified conditions the camera makers go free. This is a nasty thing. Fortunately most cameras work under a wide variety of conditions.

Now, the only cameras that went broke on the Antartic were Canons as far as I understand which is not exactly good for Canon's reputation. Perhaps you should try to act together with fellow Canon users who also had problems.

Hasselblad had a similar problem, with the front lens group falling out on some 50-110HC (?) zoom lenses. At that time Hasselblad essentially claimed that the camera should not be transported or held with the lens pointing down. (Pointing the lens toward the sky keeps of course the front lens from falling out, but limits the usefulness of the camera significantly.) I got the impression that Hasselblad was reluctant to acknowledge the problem.

Best regards
Erik Kaffehr

Quote from: mrenters
They said that water damage is not normally covered under warranty at all. As I understand it, if they fix it and the problem reoccurs, it will be difficult for them to determine whether it was caused by a new episode of water damage or the initial case and that their service people don't want to have to deal with that, hence the end of the warranty.

I don't know how or why they came up with the 50% discount on a new camera.

I'm a little torn about these options as I don't particularly think either one of them is ideal.  I don't want to (nor do I feel I should) pay $3000CDN for two new bodies if there is a design defect and the new bodies fail the next time they don't like the humidity or color of the sky.

Getting them fixed but being without a warranty on a camera that I have little confidence in isn't great either and I'm again faced with the situation of what will happen if the camera decides the conditions outside are more than feels like handling that day.

I am careful with all my gear and the use it got in Antarctica was by no means anything that could be even remotely considered abuse of the equipment.

Martin
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 07, 2009, 01:42:07 AM
Hi,

a corrosion problem may be due to improper choice of materials. In that case it must be a construction problem.

Best regards
Erik Kaffehr


Quote from: Farmer
This is very odd.  Corrosion?  In the time frame of what, a few hours?  To be honest, it sounds like they accept that there was no user negligence and that it is a manufacturing failure - otherwise, once it's fixed, why wouldn't you continue warranty?  What else might cause the problem?

If it happened here, in Australia, I'd be pressing for warranty repair and full warranty to continue as normal.  What if you have some other fault with the unit, completely unrelated?  How can they deny warranty on that?

You can't cancel a warranty unless you can show user neglect, and if that's the case, why would you offer to repair it for free?  The offer smacks of "we know it's a warranty failure, but we don't want to admit it, so we'll try to make it sound like it's your fault but we won't flat out say that because then you might take legal action and we'd lose so we'll try to sweet talk it with an 'offer' to make you think we're being nice".

If it's not a warranty failure, deny the claim.  *IF* a good customer then presses you, then you might consider offering some sort of compromise as a business decision, but doing this sort of thing up front is just poor.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Farmer on February 07, 2009, 01:44:44 AM
Hmm, the 5D Mk II is specified to operate in 0-40C, which is for the most part the conditions they had down there - didn't I see someone say it was on -2C at worst?  And 85% or less humidity (shouldn't have been a problem).

I agree, Erik, that they can look for all sorts of reasons to walk away from warranty and the specifications are there for a reason, but it sounds like a very poor response from them.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Farmer on February 07, 2009, 01:45:37 AM
Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

a corrosion problem may be due to improper choice of materials. In that case it must be a construction problem.

Best regards
Erik Kaffehr

Yes, I totally agree.  My point was that environmental exposure wouldn't seem to be a valid cause of corrsion in this case.  As you say, it would be a construction issue and therefore subject ot warranty protection.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Jerry Kurata on February 07, 2009, 02:03:19 AM
Martin,

Did you have grips on either of the cameras?

Jerry
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: feppe on February 07, 2009, 04:00:48 AM
My theory is two-fold:


Salty water is pure murder for metals, much more so than plain old rain water. I used to work at a salt plant, and we'd have corrosion resistant piping costing an order of a magnitude more than normal piping - and salt would still eat through it given enough time. Therefore I'm not surprised to hear about camera failures on ships, boats and beaches, especially if there is water spraying about.

On the second point: I don't know how Kata covers are built, but the pictures I've seen suggest they are only partly sealed bags. It could very well be that the bag collects moisture, and/or that moisture condensates on the surface of the bag or camera, seeping into the sealing.

These both combined might explain the failure of the cameras.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: erick.boileau on February 07, 2009, 04:21:05 AM
now I don't know if I shall upgrade my 5D or go directly to Nikon D3X
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 07, 2009, 05:14:30 AM
Hi,

The 5DII is supposedly sealed, so I'd suggest that no water should be able to enter electronics on top of the camera. It also seems that only the 5DIIs were subject to this problems, so I would suggest that it's a problem with 5DIIs. I would suggest that Canon needs to fix that and call back the cameras having these problems or their customers may go elsewhere for shopping.  

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: feppe
My theory is two-fold:

  • Corrosion was caused by salty seawater
  • Humidity exacerbated by the rain cover (!)

Salty water is pure murder for metals, much more so than plain old rain water. I used to work at a salt plant, and we'd have corrosion resistant piping costing an order of a magnitude more than normal piping - and salt would still eat through it given enough time. Therefore I'm not surprised to hear about camera failures on ships, boats and beaches, especially if there is water spraying about.

On the second point: I don't know how Kata covers are built, but the pictures I've seen suggest they are only partly sealed bags. It could very well be that the bag collects moisture, and/or that moisture condensates on the surface of the bag or camera, seeping into the sealing.

These both combined might explain the failure of the cameras.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Josh-H on February 07, 2009, 05:29:42 AM
Quote
The 5DII is supposedly sealed,

I dont beleive so - From memory it has 'improved sealing' from the original 5D - its not fully sealed.

I think Chuck Westfall had a tech tips about this late last year - Again, from memory he said it was better sealed than the original, but no where near the sealing on the 1D series.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 07, 2009, 05:53:05 AM
Hi,

I would interpret 'improved sealing' as sealing. I'm fully aware that you are not expected to be able to put the 5DII under the shower and have it survive, but I guess I would expect it to survive some rain or snow. All of my cameras have been soaking wet and none has failed me, yet...

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: Josh-H
I dont beleive so - From memory it has 'improved sealing' from the original 5D - its not fully sealed.

I think Chuck Westfall had a tech tips about this late last year - Again, from memory he said it was better sealed than the original, but no where near the sealing on the 1D series.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Dustbak on February 07, 2009, 06:12:05 AM
Quote from: erick.boileau
now I don't know if I shall upgrade my 5D or go directly to Nikon D3X

Just to give you an idea how well the Nikon tends to be weather sealed. I have been living on board of a ship in 2002 & 2003 (sailing from the Netherlands - Caribean - the Netherlands) I had my D1X with me. Besides the sensor being completely scattered with salt speckles the camera never quit on me.

Most other electronic devices went bust during that period. Sea environment is killing, corrosion by salted moist air is about the most aggressive I have seen.

I never used the 1D series of Canon but I assume they have the same good weather sealing. My D300 has been soaking wet on several occasions as well without problems. Maybe that is where the difference is concerning weather sealing? I don't know. Just guessing but when the manufacturer says weather sealed IMO it should be able to withstand being used under these circumstances (yeah, dropping it in salt water or otherwise completely submerging it is something else).

However; using it for a long period of time in a sea environment and still having it work is a big bonus and surprise IMO. For this I would only rely on the likes of the Dx series (no experience with the 1D series) and still keep my fingers crossed.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: rockrose on February 07, 2009, 07:12:45 AM
I am pretty sure Canon tested the MKII for (a.o.t.) moist conditions, like any new camera. And I am pretty sure it passed this test, otherwise Canon sux in bringing this on the market anyway.
The only solution to stop the speculating and keep the mkII buyers (like myself) reassured, is for Canon to investigate this issue. Maybe there was a bad batch, maybe there is a design flaw (I don't care as long as it is fixed), maybe it was bad luck (wasn't there someone called Murphy on that boat?), and even maybe it is a bad camera   .  MR and his website do mean something in cameraland, and in this period of time Canon would be wise to give a satisfactory explanation.

I don't have any malfunction with my mkII, although I didn't use it in rain or heavy fog yet. But I did take it several times from the cold outside (below zero) straight into my warm house, without any problem at all (and not in a plastic bag, as Canon suggests). If this issue can be resolved, people can enjoy a terrific camera.

(PS: Hallo Ray)
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: eronald on February 07, 2009, 07:39:27 AM
The 5DII is an economy product. The failures won't do Canon any good, but they could be expected.

Edmund
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Jerry Kurata on February 07, 2009, 08:59:12 AM
From the announce materials the 5dMK2 is supposed to be water resistant to a rate of 10 mm rain in 3 minutes, which is a rate of approximately 8 in/hr.  Check out the announcement specifications on DPReview, http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos5dmarkII/ (http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos5dmarkII/).

FWIW, I have had my 5D outside in the rain for quite a while.  The camera got quite wet and I did not have any issues.  With that said I try to cover all of my cameras (5DMK2 and 1 series) when it rains.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 07, 2009, 09:32:02 AM
Quote from: Jerry Kurata
From the announce materials the 5dMK2 is supposed to be water resistant to a rate of 10 mm rain in 3 minutes, which is a rate of approximately 8 in/hr.  Check out the announcement specifications on DPReview, http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos5dmarkII/ (http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos5dmarkII/).

That's about the heaviest rain you could get, typhoon class and even then I don't remember the Japanese weather forecast ever reporting more than 150mm per hour and - having experienced that - it is about twice more intense than a normal bathroom shower... As an example, Belgium is said to be a rainy place, yet the yearly precipitations are average about 760mm of rain, which would correspond to less than 4 hours at the rate mentioned above...

My guess is that the 5DII is said to be able to withstand for 3 minutes a rain of 10mm per hour...

Cheers,
Bernard

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: mrenters on February 07, 2009, 09:33:06 AM
Quote from: feppe
My theory is two-fold:

  • Corrosion was caused by salty seawater
  • Humidity exacerbated by the rain cover (!)

Salty water is pure murder for metals, much more so than plain old rain water. I used to work at a salt plant, and we'd have corrosion resistant piping costing an order of a magnitude more than normal piping - and salt would still eat through it given enough time. Therefore I'm not surprised to hear about camera failures on ships, boats and beaches, especially if there is water spraying about.

On the second point: I don't know how Kata covers are built, but the pictures I've seen suggest they are only partly sealed bags. It could very well be that the bag collects moisture, and/or that moisture condensates on the surface of the bag or camera, seeping into the sealing.

These both combined might explain the failure of the cameras.


I didn't know that Antarctica has salty seawater rain and that this special salt water rain only affects 5D mk II cameras.    This is absurd.  The camera (along with an original 5D) was in a camera bag during the zodiac trip and the bag was covered by a nylon cover.  The failure occurred on land on a day with some light rain.  The camera was new and had only been used indoors in Canada and in Ushuaia on a clear dry day and it failed on the second day of shooting on the trip after spending the two days crossing the Drake passage in the cabin with me.

Neither camera got rained on directly. While it is possible that the Kata bag somehow contributed to a humid environment, it would still indicate that our two copies of the 5D mk II are extremely susceptible to moisture and/or humidity. The temperature difference between the inside and the outside of the Kata bag could not have been that different. Remember it failed 1.5 hours into a 2 hour landing, so the argument that it was caused by condensation on return to a warm ship doesn't fly.

Martin

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Dustbak on February 07, 2009, 09:49:47 AM
I think Feppe didn't mean there was salt rain but in an oceanic environment there is salt in the air. This causes metals (and basically everything else) to corrode much much faster than under 'normal' circumstances. I know this from first hand experience. After sailing from A to B (from Gibraltar to Madeira for instance) everything on the ship was covered under a thin layer of salt.

Again, the bodies should be able to withstand the experience you are depicting so it remains weird.

(He Rockie, jij ook hier ?   )
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Colorado David on February 07, 2009, 09:59:57 AM
In my view Canon could easily avoid a crapstorm on the internet and create a lot of product-line good will if the had repaired the failed camera bodies and continued the warranty.  The cost of this debate among dedicated photographers is far higher than the reapir and warranty costs.  Some manager in warranty repair has made a very short sighted decision that could impact the whole brand.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Jerry Kurata on February 07, 2009, 10:37:25 AM
Quote from: Colorado David
In my view Canon could easily avoid a crapstorm on the internet and create a lot of product-line good will if the had repaired the failed camera bodies and continued the warranty.  The cost of this debate among dedicated photographers is far higher than the reapir and warranty costs.  Some manager in warranty repair has made a very short sighted decision that could impact the whole brand.

Even if they repair it the question of reliability remains.  I am sure this trip was not cheap and having you new wonderkin camera dies and drop back to a backup camera on a once in a lifetime trip would upset me even if they repaired the camera.  

It there is an issue Canon needs to recall the cameras and fix it.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: feppe on February 07, 2009, 11:35:53 AM
Quote from: mrenters
I didn't know that Antarctica has salty seawater rain and that this special salt water rain only affects 5D mk II cameras.    This is absurd.  The camera (along with an original 5D) was in a camera bag during the zodiac trip and the bag was covered by a nylon cover.  The failure occurred on land on a day with some light rain.  The camera was new and had only been used indoors in Canada and in Ushuaia on a clear dry day and it failed on the second day of shooting on the trip after spending the two days crossing the Drake passage in the cabin with me.

Neither camera got rained on directly. While it is possible that the Kata bag somehow contributed to a humid environment, it would still indicate that our two copies of the 5D mk II are extremely susceptible to moisture and/or humidity. The temperature difference between the inside and the outside of the Kata bag could not have been that different. Remember it failed 1.5 hours into a 2 hour landing, so the argument that it was caused by condensation on return to a warm ship doesn't fly.

Martin

I didn't imply seawater rain, but salty condensate. Also, condensation can occur even when you keep the camera outside.

Just because Canons had a higher failure rate than other cameras doesn't take into account different handling, different storing, different usage and environment. The sample size is way too small to draw any kind of conclusions. But I agree it sounds like the 5D MkII might not have the best weather sealing out there - and Canon never claimed that to be the case.

And I don't appreciate your tone - let's try to be civil.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Kirk Gittings on February 07, 2009, 12:12:36 PM
I can't find the thread, but I remember reading here about one of these Anartica trips a couple of years ago, wasn't there a high number of failure rates on earlier Canon bodies?
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: francois on February 07, 2009, 12:14:50 PM
Quote from: Kirk Gittings
I can't find the thread, but I remember reading here about one of these Anartica trips a couple of years ago, wasn't there a high number of failure rates on earlier Canon bodies?
The article is here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/aa-07-worked.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/aa-07-worked.shtml)

There must be something wrong with Canons & Antartica  
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Paul Kay on February 07, 2009, 01:02:00 PM
I specialise in underwater photography in temperate conditions. I use Canon 1D series and 5D cameras and I have used them on boats (even liveaboards) and in very damp conditions with no problem. But perhaps I am very aware of the potential problems of damp salty conditions and electronics, although, other than ensure that everything stays as dry as possible there is little else that I can do. But my point - well corrosion is rarely caused by fresh water. In my experience it is almost invariably caused by electrolysis due to salt water, especially if there is power running through the affected components, and this can take place very quickly indeed (I have seen a lot of flooded cameras and some have shown corrosion before being removed from the housing at the end of an aborted dive - minutes !). So if there is corrosion present it indicates that salt water had got onto the damaged components - and it doesn't take much. 1.5 hours after being on a zodiac could well be plenty of time if salt water had somehow got into the shutter release on the trip to land.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Rickard Hansson on February 07, 2009, 01:08:50 PM
Quote from: Farmer
This is very odd.  Corrosion?  In the time frame of what, a few hours?  To be honest, it sounds like they accept that there was no user negligence and that it is a manufacturing failure - otherwise, once it's fixed, why wouldn't you continue warranty?  What else might cause the problem?

If it happened here, in Australia, I'd be pressing for warranty repair and full warranty to continue as normal.  What if you have some other fault with the unit, completely unrelated?  How can they deny warranty on that?

You can't cancel a warranty unless you can show user neglect, and if that's the case, why would you offer to repair it for free?  The offer smacks of "we know it's a warranty failure, but we don't want to admit it, so we'll try to make it sound like it's your fault but we won't flat out say that because then you might take legal action and we'd lose so we'll try to sweet talk it with an 'offer' to make you think we're being nice".

If it's not a warranty failure, deny the claim.  *IF* a good customer then presses you, then you might consider offering some sort of compromise as a business decision, but doing this sort of thing up front is just poor.


The problem is not the "few hours" that it took until the cameras died, the problem is that it took a a few more days before they arrived at Canon and during that time periond the corrosion is built up. So, Canon claims the problem being corrosion, while the real problem probably was the actual water getting into the camera.

Anyway, it sure seems like canon has failed in some way to implement the "better weather sealing" into the 5D mkII.


For all that were on the trip and had cameras or other gear that mailfunctioned, I hope it will be solved in a smooth and good way in the end.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: mrenters on February 07, 2009, 09:31:47 PM
Quote from: Jerry Kurata
Martin,

Did you have grips on either of the cameras?

Jerry

No grips on either camera.

Martin

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: John Camp on February 07, 2009, 11:07:11 PM
I've never had corrosion on a camera, but I have had corrosion on guns, and always (I believe) because they were kept inside "waterproof" cases for too long. I think if I were using a camera under these conditions I'd be damned sure to protect it from any water, as much as possible, and then to dry it off when I got back to shelter, and leave it *out* so any other water could evaporate. I've had visible rust on rifle bolts after a couple of days of being just barely damp inside a waterproof rifle case. (The wet rifles were wiped and put away, but apparently not dried enough.) I wonder if a warm, but not hot, hair drier would be effective with cameras?

JC


Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: harlemshooter on February 07, 2009, 11:41:31 PM
i'd like to get some additional input from the 20 5d2 users also on the trip who had no issues...what did they do differently?
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: mrenters on February 08, 2009, 11:42:46 AM
Quote from: John Camp
I've never had corrosion on a camera, but I have had corrosion on guns, and always (I believe) because they were kept inside "waterproof" cases for too long. I think if I were using a camera under these conditions I'd be damned sure to protect it from any water, as much as possible, and then to dry it off when I got back to shelter, and leave it *out* so any other water could evaporate. I've had visible rust on rifle bolts after a couple of days of being just barely damp inside a waterproof rifle case. (The wet rifles were wiped and put away, but apparently not dried enough.) I wonder if a warm, but not hot, hair drier would be effective with cameras?

JC

I used a hair dryer on the cameras when we got back to the ship.

In our case it appeared that the issue was related to the shutter release button.  Canon told me there was corrosion visible, so I wonder if any steps were taken during manufacture to prevent corrosion such as gold plating.

Martin

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: mrenters on February 08, 2009, 11:45:13 AM
Quote from: harlemshooter
i'd like to get some additional input from the 20 5d2 users also on the trip who had no issues...what did they do differently?

I don't know.  Maybe they were just lucky or maybe the problem is related to a particular batch.  I'm trying to get a list of serial numbers along with whether they failed or not from people on the trip.

Martin

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: CharlesC on February 08, 2009, 01:27:00 PM
I just wanted to share my experiences that resulted in a MkII failure (non-permanent...knock on wood) on the same trip:
So, mistakes and lack of common sense/exhaustion/impatience on my part were behind my problems, but of two cameras exposed to identical situations, only one had problems. Probably I was lucky...or unlucky. Of probably 150 cameras used during that day in those conditions, pretty much only the 5DMIIs had problems. Best I can recall, all of the failures happened after that one landing.

I'm not sure we can come to any useful conclusions about this other than you should take proper care of your camera when you move into areas of different temperatures and humidity. Always bring a garbage bag or something like that with you so that the camera can warm up without being in contact with warmer, more humid air
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: neile on February 08, 2009, 01:36:41 PM
Quote from: harlemshooter
i'd like to get some additional input from the 20 5d2 users also on the trip who had no issues...what did they do differently?

I was one of those users. The 5DMkII was my primary shooting body for the trip and did not experience any issues. I used it in the same weather conditions as everyone else, and at times did not have my rain cover because I forgot it and resorted to using the hood off my Quark parka in an attempt to keep things dry. (No, I didn't have a vertical grip)

Neil
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: ADA71 on February 08, 2009, 09:05:25 PM
So this means that the camera is not efficiently sealed around the release button and the click wheel next to it (I am sure that the wheel is the most difficult area to seal). Salt creeps are very different from just rain water. Water will evaporate but salt water will leave the salt behind and will attract humidity and then creep further into the camera. Salt creeps have a different viscosity (like oil) and will get everywhere, that is why Canon wants to end warranty because the camera will come back.

I would not take the repaired camera back.

The described symptoms clearly mean that you had salt at work. The rain/high humidity just exacerbated things. On the seas there are always enough salt water droplets/mist in the air around to create as smeary salty film on everything.

In the 80's we would just open bottom plates and top covers of F1s to dry and lubricate everything after sailing travels. I guess you can't do that anymore. I wonder if anyone has taken apart a 5D MK2 or if anyone has a repair manual so that one could evaluate if there is indeed any kind of seal at the release and top wheel? I doubt that there is anything special.


 
Quote from: mrenters
As you've probably heard there were a number of 5D mk II cameras that failed on the Antarctic trip (6 of the 26 on the trip or 23%).  My wife and I accounted for 2 of those.  Both failed within minutes of each other during a shore outing with light rain.  Both were protected by Kata rain covers and both exhibited the same problem - the shutter release button appeared to be shorted out.  When the camera was turned on it would immediately take a picture (or multiple if the camera was in continuous shooting mode). At least some of the other failures on the trip were similar.

When we got back to the ship we dried them out and they eventually (mostly) revived.  My wife's acted up again as soon as it was even slightly humid and stopped working altogether in Buenos Aires at +35C, humid but sunny weather.

For a camera that is advertised as having "improved weather resistance" I can't say I'm impressed, and I'm even less so knowing that no other cameras had problems even though many of them were completely unprotected.

Both cameras were sent to Canon for repair and I received a call today saying there was corrosion at or near the shutter release and offering me the following options:

1) Have them fixed as best they could (free of charge) but without further warranty in case of internal failure
2) Trade them for new cameras at 50% off the retail price

I'm not convinced that this camera doesn't have serious problems with moisture compared to similar cameras from other manufacturers and I'm also not convinced I can trust the camera to work in anything other than warm dry air.

I like the camera otherwise and the images it produces are great, but if you can't rely on it, I don't know how useful it is. Make sure you carry a backup if there is any chance there could be moisture. I don't know if I'd buy it again given our experience.

Martin
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: giles on February 08, 2009, 10:33:56 PM
Quote from: harlemshooter
i'd like to get some additional input from the 20 5d2 users also on the trip who had no issues...what did they do differently?
I had no problems.  I didn't use a rain cover; when there was rain about I used a towel to protect the camera.  Upon returning to the ship I almost always left the camera in my camera bag for an hour or two.  I managed not to change lenses on those shore excursions when there was rain; nor did I change lenses on the zodiac cruises.  Otherwise, it was business as usual -- I took several thousand frames (less than some of you, I know!).

I'm rather startled by the number of failures we saw: Canon made quite a point at the local 5D II launch that the weather sealing was "improved" over the 5D, although not up to 1 series level.  Part of my surprise is that the fairly numerous 40Ds, 50Ds, etc didn't appear to have the same number of problems.  I don't know if anyone took a count, but many of us who had a 5D II had a second Canon body of some sort along too.

How statistically significant the failures we saw are I don't know, but 20+ percent is suggestive of a problem. :-(

Giles
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 09, 2009, 01:02:07 AM
Hi!

One trick I often do is that when I'm shooting in cold I remove the memory card before going inside. I don't ever put the camera in a sealed bag, but simple keep it in my backpack all zipped up. Never had problems, except once when I was walking in heavy rain without raincower and eveything got soaking wet. Focusing was stuck mechanically on my 80-200/2.8 APO after having it soaking wet and the batteries were exhausted after very short. I could exercise the 80-200/2.8 back to working order and it still works just fine, I hade it around 20 years. I guess I have been lucky.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: CharlesC
I just wanted to share my experiences that resulted in a MkII failure (non-permanent...knock on wood) on the same trip:
  • I was using full rain covers on both my 5D and 5DMII, keeping any drops that hit them (you have to look at the histogram somehow) mopped up using a microfiber rag.
  • I was not using grips on either camera, but I did have to break the cameras down to get them back in my camera pack (which went into a waterproof SealLine bag) for travel from the shore to the ship.  I did not change lenses while on-land.
  • My mistake was letting the cool cameras get exposed to the air once I got back on the boat (so that I could charge batteries and download my card). Didn't make the mistake again on the trip.
  • Both my 5D and 5DMII had condensation inside and out, only the 5DMII had problems (and the problems happened immediately).
  • It came back to life for the rest of the trip after air-drying all night with everything open plus two stints with a hair-drier in a pillow case.
  • Lots of other people came back on-board and had their cameras out pretty much at once. Only the Canons seemed to have problems with the resulting condensation (odd).  I saw many D700 owners shooting in the rain with no cover.
  • Canon 5DMKII manual page 216: Operating conditions 32F-104F (0C-40C), humidity 80% or less. Page 9 - what to do coming in from the cold. 5D manual says same thing. We were within the operating temperature, above operating humidity. Coming inside some of us violated the "put it in a sealed bag and let it warm up" rule.
So, mistakes and lack of common sense/exhaustion/impatience on my part were behind my problems, but of two cameras exposed to identical situations, only one had problems. Probably I was lucky...or unlucky. Of probably 150 cameras used during that day in those conditions, pretty much only the 5DMIIs had problems. Best I can recall, all of the failures happened after that one landing.

I'm not sure we can come to any useful conclusions about this other than you should take proper care of your camera when you move into areas of different temperatures and humidity. Always bring a garbage bag or something like that with you so that the camera can warm up without being in contact with warmer, more humid air
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: john2 on February 09, 2009, 02:19:07 AM
I note that the corrosion reported by Canon occurred around the release button. I do a lot of outdoor photography, often near the sea - in response to this report I have stuck a piece of black duck tape over the release button. The button still operates perfectly - do other people think that this is a sensible approach to the problem?
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: atassy on February 09, 2009, 08:22:50 AM
Quote from: john2
I note that the corrosion reported by Canon occurred around the release button. I do a lot of outdoor photography, often near the sea - in response to this report I have stuck a piece of black duck tape over the release button. The button still operates perfectly - do other people think that this is a sensible approach to the problem?

if it works for you i think it could indeed give some additional protection. but i'd definitely take it off when back inside so that any moisture that may have gotten in, can dry off and doesn't get trapped inside by the tape.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: citytrader on February 09, 2009, 11:31:57 AM
Hello!, could be possible to post the 5DMKII pictures of the trip!?...

Regards!
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: JohnKoerner on February 09, 2009, 01:28:51 PM
Quote from: CharlesC
  • Canon 5DMKII manual page 216: Operating conditions 32F-104F (0C-40C), humidity 80% or less. Page 9 - what to do coming in from the cold. 5D manual says same thing. We were within the operating temperature, above operating humidity. Coming inside some of us violated the "put it in a sealed bag and let it warm up" rule.
So, mistakes and lack of common sense/exhaustion/impatience on my part were behind my problems, but of two cameras exposed to identical situations, only one had problems. Probably I was lucky...or unlucky. Of probably 150 cameras used during that day in those conditions, pretty much only the 5DMIIs had problems. Best I can recall, all of the failures happened after that one landing.
I'm not sure we can come to any useful conclusions about this other than you should take proper care of your camera when you move into areas of different temperatures and humidity. Always bring a garbage bag or something like that with you so that the camera can warm up without being in contact with warmer, more humid air


I suppose it goes back to the old saying, "When all else fails, follow the instructions."  

I think what Canon is essentially doing is letting people know where the extra money is going in the 1Ds. There is a huge difference between the wording "improved weather sealing" and "weatherPROOF." I know, for example, in wristwatches if you buy a watch that says "weather resistant," don't think you can go scuba diving with it. If you do, it will fail. You have to buy a waterproof watch if you want to go diving.

If Canon says you must put your camera in a bag, and allow it to acclimate, before bringing it into a new drastic environment ... and a person doesn't do this ... then I can't see how they're liable in a warranty situation. The person who doesn't follow the instructions simply becomes the author of their own misfortune.

I would suspect that the 5DMkII is designed mostly for high-quality portraits in a calm environment, but that their 1Ds remains their "take anywhere" high-res safari camera. And the extra money goes to the extra durability. That the 50D didn't experience any probs is indicative it too is kind of a "all-use" budget camera. I think the 5DMkII is designed to give you super image quality economically, but also without the same protection or "all use" function either.

That is how I perceive things at any rate ...





.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: mbrost on February 09, 2009, 02:48:51 PM
Quote from: JohnKoerner
I would suspect that the 5DMkII is designed mostly for high-quality portraits in a calm environment, but that their 1Ds remains their "take anywhere" high-res safari camera. And the extra money goes to the extra durability. That the 50D didn't experience any probs is indicative it too is kind of a "all-use" budget camera. I think the 5DMkII is designed to give you super image quality economically, but also without the same protection or "all use" function either.

Not to argue, but take a look at the 2007 report, 1Ds cameras had just as bad of a time, maybe statistically worse: 2007 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/aa-07-worked.shtml)

So, maybe it is Canon thing and not just spending enough money      Since that report, I have not seen a whole lot of reports that the 1Ds Mark II had major issues in any weather conditions.  It is curious that the xxD line has not been identified as an issue, wonder what design points figure into that?

I hope Canon does the right thing here and does a recall when they find the issue.  The bad news is that it may take a lot of failures to identify what is actually causing the problem, and it is no fun to be the one who 'helps' identify a issue.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: pss on February 09, 2009, 03:27:14 PM
i am not sure i get this: a couple of people go to the far end of the planet....maybe the conditions weren't THAT bad...but still a lot worse then MOST places on the planet....and they take cameras with "improved weather sealing"....and 20% of those cameras fail....
well...that is why canon makes the dsIII...for those conditions....just because other cameras DID NOT fail does not mean that there is something wrong with ALL 5DIIs.....this is so far from a recall or even an issue! banding, blackdots under all conditions, occuring with 10000s of bodies is a recall or an issue....10 out of 30 5DIIs failing in ANTARTICA seems to fall in the "i could have told you" category....
no offence, and i totally understand if some people draw the conclusion that nikon and sony might have better weather sealing...that might be the case....but again until 5DIIs start to fail in london, chicago, tokyo and pretty much anywhere else in the world other then ANTARTICA...and fail at a certain % due to faulty weather sealing.....

just because my camera hold up well when i take a couple of snaps on the beach does not mean i should feel confident to take this camera on a trip through northern africa....i mean i could but i really should not be surprised if it dies....

there is a camera that gives us more then we could have dreamed of in just about every aspect and throws in incredible HD capablities for a REALLY good price.....and some people complain that it does not hold up in antartica....wow, i guess you really can't make everybody happy....
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: mrenters on February 09, 2009, 04:05:37 PM
Quote from: pss
i am not sure i get this: a couple of people go to the far end of the planet....maybe the conditions weren't THAT bad...but still a lot worse then MOST places on the planet....and they take cameras with "improved weather sealing"....and 20% of those cameras fail....
well...that is why canon makes the dsIII...for those conditions....just because other cameras DID NOT fail does not mean that there is something wrong with ALL 5DIIs....

I'm surprised to hear that temperatures just above freezing (it did rain and not snow) are somehow worse than conditions in most places on the planet.  I know Antarctica sounds exotic and you probably have images of penguins freezing in -60C temperatures with the wind and snow howling around them in your head.  The fact of the matter is that it was far colder at home in southern Canada (-30C) during the time we were on the trip.  I guess that makes anything but a 1 series camera unsuitable for outdoor work in Canada for 4-5 months of the year.

As for the rain, you're right, it doesn't rain in most places on the planet.

I'm not saying the problem affects ALL 5DIIs, but I am saying I own two of them with serial numbers two apart that broke in conditions that really weren't anything extreme or anything I would have expected a failure in. I didn't take it swimming in the ocean or anything. Perhaps there was a problem with an early batch (I received mine in mid-December). I've been taking pictures with a variety of cameras for over 35 years and haven't had any previous problems with cameras failing.

As for the 1 series bodies, if you look back at what failed during the 2007 trip, you'll find that a number of those bullet proof 1DsIIs failed.  Ooops.  I guess they weren't designed for those "extreme" conditions either.

I like the 5DII otherwise - the images that come out of it are great, the video feature is wonderful, etc.  It just wasn't reliable for us on this trip and I'm glad I had a backup camera.

Martin



 
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: harlemshooter on February 09, 2009, 04:44:31 PM
strange troubles, brother.  hope canon fixes your camera.  


Quote from: mrenters
I'm surprised to hear that temperatures just above freezing (it did rain and not snow) are somehow worse than conditions in most places on the planet.  I know Antarctica sounds exotic and you probably have images of penguins freezing in -60C temperatures with the wind and snow howling around them in your head.  The fact of the matter is that it was far colder at home in southern Canada (-30C) during the time we were on the trip.  I guess that makes anything but a 1 series camera unsuitable for outdoor work in Canada for 4-5 months of the year.

As for the rain, you're right, it doesn't rain in most places on the planet.

I'm not saying the problem affects ALL 5DIIs, but I am saying I own two of them with serial numbers two apart that broke in conditions that really weren't anything extreme or anything I would have expected a failure in. I didn't take it swimming in the ocean or anything. Perhaps there was a problem with an early batch (I received mine in mid-December). I've been taking pictures with a variety of cameras for over 35 years and haven't had any previous problems with cameras failing.

As for the 1 series bodies, if you look back at what failed during the 2007 trip, you'll find that a number of those bullet proof 1DsIIs failed.  Ooops.  I guess they weren't designed for those "extreme" conditions either.

I like the 5DII otherwise - the images that come out of it are great, the video feature is wonderful, etc.  It just wasn't reliable for us on this trip and I'm glad I had a backup camera.

Martin
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Rory on February 09, 2009, 04:46:25 PM
I was wondering if salty fingers could be the culprit.  I know when traveling in small boats it is almost impossible to keep your hands dry.  This does not explain why the cannons failed, other than they could be more susceptible to "salty finger" syndrome.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Wayne Fox on February 09, 2009, 04:52:50 PM
I guess my problem is it just doesn't sound very difficult to design a shutter release system where the contacts themselves are sealed well enough that salt can't get to them (or water for that matter).

But I'll admit I'm no engineer.  This high of a failure rate doesn't inspire confidence in Canon bodies.

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: chrisgibbs on February 09, 2009, 05:13:53 PM
Quote
Giles wrote: Upon returning to the ship I almost always left the camera in my camera bag for an hour or two

Great point Giles, that's about all you really need to do here!  These camera covers and ziplock bags *can have the reverse* of the intended effect and actually *keep your kit damp*.

Taking a closed camera bag (it's a padded moisture permeable cooler bag really) inside is a great way to acclimatize your kit - as you noted, also great when you're in and out of a warm vehicle too.

Sounds as if the D700 users ***inadvertently*** had a better approach here!  By not trying to baby their kit, getting it a little damp then toweling it off and throwing it back in the bag, they may have actually employed a better system.

As for using hair-driers and blowing warm air into all those *unsealed cold parts* that sounds a little risky!

Anyway, great topic and food for thought.................

Cheers,
Chris Gibbs
Alaska

http://www.chrisgibbs.com (http://www.chrisgibbs.com)
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: neile on February 09, 2009, 06:02:06 PM
Quote from: pss
i am not sure i get this: a couple of people go to the far end of the planet....maybe the conditions weren't THAT bad...but still a lot worse then MOST places on the planet....and they take cameras with "improved weather sealing"....and 20% of those cameras fail....

The conditions while we were in Antarctica were far nicer than:

1) The conditions I left behind in Seattle (-10C, 16 inches of snow on the ground)
2) The conditions in Manitoba when I was home for Christmas (regularly -30C without wind)

There were several times when I enjoyed the weather on the deck of the ship in just a t-shirt and jeans. The water we did encounter as rain on the days we had the camera failures was equivalent to normal Seattle drizzling.

Neil
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: harlemshooter on February 09, 2009, 06:20:27 PM
Quote from: neile
The conditions while we were in Antarctica were far nicer than:

1) The conditions I left behind in Seattle (-10C, 16 inches of snow on the ground)
2) The conditions in Manitoba when I was home for Christmas (regularly -30C without wind)

There were several times when I enjoyed the weather on the deck of the ship in just a t-shirt and jeans. The water we did encounter as rain on the days we had the camera failures was equivalent to normal Seattle drizzling.

Neil
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on February 10, 2009, 01:03:29 AM
I suppose we will never know what the exact reason of these failures was. It is certainly frustrating to have camera failures in any trip, let alone in a a trip like this, to such a wonderful place. Personally, whenever I move between two different environments in terms of humidity and/or temperature, I try to avoid condensation by letting the camera adjust to the different condition.

For instance, I once went to Moscow in the winter with the old EOS 30V (not much weather proofing on that one...), and I used it under very low temperatures. Whenever I had to go from outside to inside, I would put the camera in my bag, and let it warm up inside the bag for at least one hour.

When I have to go from air-con to hot and humid outside, I try to leave the camera outside, inside the bag, for 1 to 2 hours, so that it can warm up, and avoid condensation.

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Paul Kay on February 10, 2009, 10:04:52 AM
I took my 5D2 out for its first test in pretty cold conditions in the foothills of the Carneddau 'mountains' here in North Wales. It was sub-zero and very windy. I had to scrape snow off the top of the camera and it worked happily enough despite having to have snow scraped off the top twice. I did get frozen though, and had to walk back down in near blizzard conditions.

[attachment=11429:_MG_8255.jpg]
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: eronald on February 10, 2009, 11:03:46 AM
How to treat a camera when it gets cold and rainy is an interesting question. A bag of cold air when bringing the camera in is a nice idea as it gives it dry air to warm in, but the same bag of warm air when taking it out provides a reservoir of humidity to deposit as condensate. I wonder whether in the end the simplesst solution - no sealed bags,  cushioned case or camera on the outside of your coat in winter, spare battery in pocket, isn't the least risky for a weather-proofed camera (EOS1, NIKON D). In any case it's certainly the solution which is tested most by consumers

Edmund
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: inissila on February 11, 2009, 05:41:44 AM
Quote from: eronald
How to treat a camera when it gets cold and rainy is an interesting question. A bag of cold air when bringing the camera in is a nice idea as it gives it dry air to warm in, but the same bag of warm air when taking it out provides a reservoir of humidity to deposit as condensate. I wonder whether in the end the simplesst solution - no sealed bags,  cushioned case or camera on the outside of your coat in winter, spare battery in pocket, isn't the least risky for a weather-proofed camera (EOS1, NIKON D). In any case it's certainly the solution which is tested most by consumers

Right, the sealed bags are only used when going from the cold outdoors to the warm and humid indoor space. When going back out again, the sealed bags are not used (but of course the gear is still in the (not sealed) camera bag.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: pegelli on February 11, 2009, 05:58:49 AM
Quote from: Paul Kay
I took my 5D2 out for its first test in pretty cold conditions in the foothills of the Carneddau 'mountains' here in North Wales. It was sub-zero and very windy. I had to scrape snow off the top of the camera and it worked happily enough despite having to have snow scraped off the top twice. I did get frozen though, and had to walk back down in near blizzard conditions.

Paul,

Nice shot, which reminds me of a walk I took up the sides of Mount Snowdon ~ 15 years ago in similar conditions. I've got some negatives from that somewhere, but not scanned (yet  )
Well worth the freezing cold and snow on you and your camera. I'm glad you both survived.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Peter K. Burian on February 11, 2009, 10:27:01 AM
Yes, the EOS 5D Mk II is well sealed. According to Canon's White Paper.

(I can understand water getting in between the camera and the vertical grip but not the other problems. And apparently, they were not caused by salt water, if I read the article correctly.)

www.usa.canon.com/uploadedimages/FCK/Image/White%20Papers/EOS%2050D%20and%205D%20Mark%20II%20WP.pdf

...weather-resistant rubber flaps cover these connectors.  the weather and dust seals have been improved around the battery compartments and memory card doors, and increased precision in the alignment of the magnesium alloy external cover seams and in the optimal design of camera parts and structures contribute to the cameras’ dust and water resistance. Internal gaskets and sealing materials are used extensively at the cameras’ buttons, tripod sockets, and surrounding the LCDs. As a result, the EOS 5D Mark II now has dust and water resistance that isalmost equal to that of the EOS-1N—Canon’s top-of-the-line professional 35mm SLR for most of the 1990’s....

I hope I don't have problems in rain or snow with my 5D II. (Not so far, but only used it once in light rain.)

Peter www.peterkburian.com
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Colorado David on February 11, 2009, 10:45:07 AM
Quote from: JohnKoerner
I know, for example, in wristwatches if you buy a watch that says "weather resistant," don't think you can go scuba diving with it. If you do, it will fail. You have to buy a waterproof watch if you want to go diving.

The terms waterproof and water resistant are very subjective, even more so in diving watches.  I was told by a Rolex trained watchmaker that no watch is sold as water proof.  Even the Rolex Submariner, which is most certainly sold as a diving watch, is represented as water resistant to a certain specification, to 300 meters, rather than water proof.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Peter K. Burian on February 11, 2009, 11:10:10 AM
A friend used her EOS 5D II in the Falklands in January, and thankfully, she reports no problems.

... It got wet at least twice (I mean two separate days)  but I tried to dry it off and protect it when the rain became more than a drizzle.  One day we had rain storms maybe every 10 - 15 minutes that lasted just long enough to get your gear back in the bag and hunker down over it (on a cliff) for a few minutes.  I know it got wet and damp then as well as one day that it was wet and windy all day long.  But I never had it out in pouring rain.  Mostly it was just rain but given the amount of wind, I'm sure there was salt water in the air too....

The Serial Number of her camera is 0220105xxx
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: francois on February 11, 2009, 11:16:59 AM
Quote from: Colorado David
The terms waterproof and water resistant are very subjective, even more so in diving watches.  I was told by a Rolex trained watchmaker that no watch is sold as water proof.  Even the Rolex Submariner, which is most certainly sold as a diving watch, is represented as water resistant to a certain specification, to 300 meters, rather than water proof.
Speaking of diving watches, you'd probably be surprised to learn that most failures occur in very shallow waters (~1m deep) -  Not unlike the 5D2 failing in moderate rain/drizzle.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Paul Kay on February 11, 2009, 11:28:42 AM
Quote from: francois
Speaking of diving watches, you'd probably be surprised to learn that most failures occur in very shallow waters (~1m deep) -  Not unlike the 5D2 failing in moderate rain/drizzle.

Virtually all diving equipment uses 'O' ring seals, NOT gaskets as used for 'weatherproofing'. Sorry but the analogy is not accurate as 'O' rings are designed to work more efficiently under increased pressure and if they fail they can do so at very low increases in pressure (at the surface) if their sealing surfaces are compromised in some way. Gaskets are supposed to work under low or no pressure - very different technologies.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: francois on February 11, 2009, 12:30:06 PM
Quote from: Paul Kay
Virtually all diving equipment uses 'O' ring seals, NOT gaskets as used for 'weatherproofing'. Sorry but the analogy is not accurate as 'O' rings are designed to work more efficiently under increased pressure and if they fail they can do so at very low increases in pressure (at the surface) if their sealing surfaces are compromised in some way. Gaskets are supposed to work under low or no pressure - very different technologies.
You're right, of course, cameras don't use the same kind of seals. I wanted to point out that failures don't always occur in the most demanding conditions.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: dseelig on February 11, 2009, 12:32:24 PM
I do not understand anyone shooting a 3 grand camera in the rain without protection. Nor do I understand anyone going as far as Anartica and the expenses that entail without several backups. That said what happened to these 5d mk11's ?
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: mrenters on February 11, 2009, 12:39:12 PM
Quote from: dseelig
I do not understand anyone shooting a 3 grand camera in the rain without protection. Nor do I understand anyone going as far as Anartica and the expenses that entail without several backups. That said what happened to these 5d mk11's ?

You must have missed my previous postings.  Both out 5DmkIIs were in Kata rain gear during the rain and we also had 2 of the original 5Ds as backup. Both 5DmkII cameras were revived by drying, although one later developed problems again and finally died in Buenos Aires (+35C, sunny, humid).

Our two units are now at Canon for repair and we've been offered free repair but voiding of further warranty or trading them for new 5DmkIIs for 50% off the retail price.  Neither of these options is acceptable as far as I'm concerned.

Martin

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Plekto on February 11, 2009, 03:44:44 PM
It is a high failure rate, to be honest.  I suspect that the problem is that someone chose the wrong alloy for the stitch contacts and connectors.  Though, salt water resistance would be a fairly easy test to conduct in Japan, I'd wager.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Peter K. Burian on February 11, 2009, 04:26:38 PM
This is interesting too, including diagrams of the water-resisting features provided by Canon.
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos5dmarkii/page5.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos5dmarkii/page5.asp)

As you can see from the first image below the body is made up of three pieces of magnesium, the only plastic elements being sides and the base. With the advent of the Mark II Canon are finally talking about the dust / water resistance of the body, the second image below shows these seals, Canon's description: "The battery compartment, memory card door, LCD and the camera buttons are all fitted with sealing materials (indicated in red). In addition the adoption of high precision split-level alignment of the magnesium-alloy external covers, high precision dial construction and external rubber grip covers (indicated in green), has improved the camera's dust and water resistance.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 11, 2009, 04:28:19 PM
Quote from: Plekto
It is a high failure rate, to be honest.  I suspect that the problem is that someone chose the wrong alloy for the stitch contacts and connectors.  Though, salt water resistance would be a fairly easy test to conduct in Japan, I'd wager.

All the tests can be done, but validation is a significant part of the developement cost of complex DSLRs.

Unless they are willing to lose money on these bodies (which is very likely for Sony), I wouldn't be surprised if Canon, Sony and Nikon had had to make some tough calls in terms of test matrix simplifications during the design phases of their latest round of lower end FF DSLRs.

It would appear that Canon was unlucky this time around.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: dseelig on February 11, 2009, 04:32:09 PM
HI Martin
I was not talking about you but from what I read many people went without rain covers on the trip. Which to me means trouble in the months ahead. David
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: eronald on February 11, 2009, 06:02:43 PM
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
It would appear that Canon was unlucky this time around.

Cheers,
Bernard

Agreed. Anyone who has read this forum has been warned.

Edmund
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: spotmeter on February 11, 2009, 06:14:51 PM
Quote from: mrenters
You must have missed my previous postings.  Both out 5DmkIIs were in Kata rain gear during the rain and we also had 2 of the original 5Ds as backup. Both 5DmkII cameras were revived by drying, although one later developed problems again and finally died in Buenos Aires (+35C, sunny, humid).

Our two units are now at Canon for repair and we've been offered free repair but voiding of further warranty or trading them for new 5DmkIIs for 50% off the retail price.  Neither of these options is acceptable as far as I'm concerned.

Martin

I would certainly not accept their offers. The only thing that makes sense is for Canon to repair both bodies under warranty.

You might strengthen your case with Canon by printing out Michael's report on the Canon failures on this trip, as well as the contents of this thread.  When they see the enormous amount of bad publicity they are getting from water seal problems on the 5D2 and  their handling of your situation, they may feel like honoring their warranty on the camera. If the local Canon people don't accept that this a problem they should fix under warranty, then ask for their superiors and send the printed material to them.

I for one have delayed buying a 5D2 as a result of your experience with Canon.

Canon has a long history of denying problems, and then fixing them. The 'black dots' on the 5D2 is a recent example.  So don't expect them to admit that there is a problem with some Canons (yours among them).  But they should fix it under warranty without any 'special' conditions.

Please keep us posted.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: JDClements on February 11, 2009, 06:26:38 PM
What is the failure rate we are talking about? It is 6 out of 26, but we know two of those are unrelated to the main issue being discussed. One was a spontaneously cracked cover on the top LCD, one was a loose screw on the lens mount. Two are known to have the "corrosion" problem, discussed in this thread. What about the other two?

The corrosion/water problem affected 2-4 out of 26 cameras ( ~ 8-15%). I find it interesting that two (somewhere between half and all of the related failures) was from the same household. Were these cameras purchased simultaneously? Reason I ask is the possibility of a bad run, since cameras coming off the assembly line together tend to stay clumped together through the distribution chain.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: mrenters on February 11, 2009, 06:40:02 PM
Quote from: JDClements
What is the failure rate we are talking about? It is 6 out of 26, but we know two of those are unrelated to the main issue being discussed. One was a spontaneously cracked cover on the top LCD, one was a loose screw on the lens mount. Two are known to have the "corrosion" problem, discussed in this thread. What about the other two?

The corrosion/water problem affected 2-4 out of 26 cameras ( ~ 8-15%). I find it interesting that two (somewhere between half and all of the related failures) was from the same household. Were these cameras purchased simultaneously? Reason I ask is the possibility of a bad run, since cameras coming off the assembly line together tend to stay clumped together through the distribution chain.

Our two cameras have serial numbers two apart 0320105xxx.  One other camera that failed had a serial number of 0320106xxx and an additional camera has a serial number of 0320102xxx.  Some cameras that didn't fail had serial numbers in the 0330105xxx and 0230113xxx range.  So, perhaps there is a problem with a batch in the 032010xxxx range.

Martin

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Johnny_Johnson on February 11, 2009, 06:45:36 PM
Quote from: JDClements
The corrosion/water problem affected 2-4 out of 26 cameras ( ~ 8-15%). I find it interesting that two (somewhere between half and all of the related failures) was from the same household. Were these cameras purchased simultaneously? Reason I ask is the possibility of a bad run, since cameras coming off the assembly line together tend to stay clumped together through the distribution chain.

There are other possibilities Dan.  Did Martin and his wife both operate their cameras with their hands inside the Kayta covers?  Were they both wearing the same types of gloves?  Were the gloves wet and salt soaked from the trip over in the Zodiacs?  I may be mistaken but I seem to remember that Martin mentioned this as a possibility somewhere on the Web in the past few days.

Later,
Johnny
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on February 11, 2009, 07:47:37 PM
In case any of you do take Spotmeter's suggestion to send all the relevant LL threads to Canon, I want to go on record as being yet another person heavily invested in Canon glass who is not going to buy a 5DII until I am certain that this problem has been addressed. My 5D mark I has given me no problems (except for the nuisance of sensor cleaning), so I'll try to take good care of it.

Eric

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: mrenters on February 11, 2009, 07:51:01 PM
Quote from: Johnny_Johnson
There are other possibilities Dan.  Did Martin and his wife both operate their cameras with their hands inside the Kayta covers?  Were they both wearing the same types of gloves?  Were the gloves wet and salt soaked from the trip over in the Zodiacs?  I may be mistaken but I seem to remember that Martin mentioned this as a possibility somewhere on the Web in the past few days.

Later,
Johnny

Neither one of us was wearing gloves during that landing.  The Kata bags have two access ports for putting your hands in which we obviously used to fire the shutter.

Martin

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 11, 2009, 08:42:48 PM
Quote from: mrenters
Neither one of us was wearing gloves during that landing.  The Kata bags have two access ports for putting your hands in which we obviously used to fire the shutter.

I don't know if this applies to the situation you were in, and it is of course no excuse for the problem you have been facing, but when shooting on a tripod in the rain, I have found that using a release cable, even without MLU, if pretty convenient since you don't need to access the inside of the rain cover, or at least less so.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: rockrose on February 12, 2009, 03:57:39 AM
Quote from: spotmeter
When they see the enormous amount of bad publicity they are getting from water seal problems on the 5D2...
Canon has a long history of denying problems, and then fixing them. The 'black dots' on the 5D2 is a recent example.

As mkII owner I too am worried about the durability, but the "enormous amount of bad publicity" refers i.m.o. to a lot of reactions to only a few known cases of moisture/corrosion problems. It must be addressed nonetheless.
For the "history of denying problems" the black dots aren't a good example i.m.o., Canon admitted and resolved it rather quickly.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: ADA71 on February 12, 2009, 11:12:08 AM
I may read this wrong but if the red indicates weather sealing, there is indeed none around the shutter release which showed the corrosion in the two failed 5D MK2s?




Quote from: Peter K. Burian
This is interesting too, including diagrams of the water-resisting features provided by Canon.
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos5dmarkii/page5.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos5dmarkii/page5.asp)

As you can see from the first image below the body is made up of three pieces of magnesium, the only plastic elements being sides and the base. With the advent of the Mark II Canon are finally talking about the dust / water resistance of the body, the second image below shows these seals, Canon's description: "The battery compartment, memory card door, LCD and the camera buttons are all fitted with sealing materials (indicated in red). In addition the adoption of high precision split-level alignment of the magnesium-alloy external covers, high precision dial construction and external rubber grip covers (indicated in green), has improved the camera's dust and water resistance.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: ADA71 on February 12, 2009, 11:16:52 AM
Well, the white paper is more PR hype than accurate representation of functionality. It also strongly advertised DOF control in movie mode of which there is no direct control as we know now.

Quote from: Peter K. Burian
Yes, the EOS 5D Mk II is well sealed. According to Canon's White Paper.

(I can understand water getting in between the camera and the vertical grip but not the other problems. And apparently, they were not caused by salt water, if I read the article correctly.)

www.usa.canon.com/uploadedimages/FCK/Image/White%20Papers/EOS%2050D%20and%205D%20Mark%20II%20WP.pdf

...weather-resistant rubber flaps cover these connectors.  the weather and dust seals have been improved around the battery compartments and memory card doors, and increased precision in the alignment of the magnesium alloy external cover seams and in the optimal design of camera parts and structures contribute to the cameras’ dust and water resistance. Internal gaskets and sealing materials are used extensively at the cameras’ buttons, tripod sockets, and surrounding the LCDs. As a result, the EOS 5D Mark II now has dust and water resistance that isalmost equal to that of the EOS-1N—Canon’s top-of-the-line professional 35mm SLR for most of the 1990’s....

I hope I don't have problems in rain or snow with my 5D II. (Not so far, but only used it once in light rain.)

Peter www.peterkburian.com
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: ADA71 on February 12, 2009, 11:26:47 AM
Also if you look at the sealing at the battery door, it is just a foam seal which will disintegrate rather quickly. Looks like the stuff which was used for mirror cushioning in old SLRs. This can soak up humidity for sure. Anyway better than nothing I guess.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Plekto on February 12, 2009, 05:22:45 PM
Quote from: eronald
Agreed. Anyone who has read this forum has been warned.

Edmund

I know myself from working with metals a bit that there are literally dozens of types of stainless steel.  Chose the wrong one and your sword or gun barrel won't work correctly.  And then there's also the problem with their supplier in China/Indonesia/wherever that makes the switches for them cutting corners on making the alloy.  Most of these metals are corrosion resistant only because of exotic and expensive metals that are added to the process.

In any case, yes - we seem to have "been warned".  This model isn't good for marine environments.  Otherwise, it seems to be fine, though.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: feppe on February 12, 2009, 05:46:12 PM
Quote from: Plekto
In any case, yes - we seem to have "been warned".  This model isn't good for marine environments.  Otherwise, it seems to be fine, though.

Sample size is too small, and environmental and handling variations too large to make any definitive - or even directional - conclusions about the 5D MkII's viability in marine environments.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Plekto on February 12, 2009, 06:13:12 PM
I just checked elsewhere.  Wow what a hairball this is causing all over the photo sites.

 
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Bern Caughey on February 12, 2009, 07:04:42 PM
Previously posted in the Video forum...

'I picked up two of the first batch of 5D2s & have been working them fairly regularly. During a two day shoot in the forests outside San Francisco it was rainy & cold so I mostly used a Storm Jacket camera cover over my primary body.

While downloading CFs I noticed this camera became covered in condensation, so I stopped bringing it into the heated motor home. Still shortly after the multi-control toggle failed & I switched to the backup body.

At the end of the day I put the camera & lenses in Ziplocs, so additional condensation would form on the outside of the bags, & luckily the next day the primary camera came back to life.

Best regards,
Bern'

PS This was the only time the cameras were used in the wet & it wasn't raining very hard. I've had no issues using the cameras in the cold, including -30F Chicago.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: JDClements on February 12, 2009, 08:09:19 PM
Quote from: mrenters
Our two cameras have serial numbers two apart 0320105xxx.  One other camera that failed had a serial number of 0320106xxx and an additional camera has a serial number of 0320102xxx.  Some cameras that didn't fail had serial numbers in the 0330105xxx and 0230113xxx range.  So, perhaps there is a problem with a batch in the 032010xxxx range.
That could be significant. As feppe points out, the sample size is too small to draw conclusions (but it is certainly large enough to draw concern). My serial number is 0220102xxx, and it has been problem-free since December. I have not had it in any type of precipitation, however, it has been taken between cold/warm environments many times.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: SteveGM on February 13, 2009, 03:43:11 PM
As far as I am aware, Canon have only made one statement as to the damage itself, that was corrosion around the shutter release button, ergo, water has come in via this port. From the information ‘Martin’ has provided, there was light rain, a Kata bag was used and the shutter released inside the bag without gloves being worn. The problem also occurred before being returned to a warm cabin, so condensation here is not relevant.
Now I’m speculating. Water and salt must have got in via the finger when releasing the shutter. Is this because of slightly damp hands due to the conditions or can condensation form when warm hands meet a cold object? (I’d have probably had my hands in an out of my pockets trying to keep them warm) Whilst I am framing up I have my finger resting on the shutter release button for some time generally.
Do rain proof covers exacerbate the situation as somebody else suggested? I don’t know, but they must deprive the camera of any airflow (Condensation is encouraged by poor air circulation).
I am a 5D Mark 2 user, I am not being critical I hope, I am trying to find a workable solution for myself. If the camera is on a tripod, I myself will use a cable release, is it feasible to fire the shutter from the ‘outside’ of any raincover on the camera?? Thuswise keeping the shutter finger away.
As far as moving from a cold to a warm climate and condensation appearing, does it make any difference whether a ‘ziplock’ bag is used or is a general camera bag ok?? I’d appreciate opinions on this one – I have read some others being ok with the camera bag – is this something else to cart around, large ziplock bags.
I'm not sure I'm happy with the faulty batch scenario - although I wish it were true.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: SteveGM on February 15, 2009, 08:42:05 AM
If it is any use to anybody, I've been using the infra red remote release RC-1 today (with the 5D Mark 2), it fires the camera whether standing in front of or behind the lens, it will fire the shutter instantly or with a 2 second mirror lock-up. Maybe this will be useful with a raincover on the camera, or on dusty days it saves exposing the ports on the side to attach the cable release. £20 in the UK, I'm quite pleased with it.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: soboyle on February 15, 2009, 09:40:05 AM
For what it is worth, I took my 5D mk2 out cross country skiing, with the intent to shoot some landscapes along the way.
I was in vermont, very cold weather, near 0 F. A short way into the ski I fell into 3' deep powder snow, and ended up floundering around in the snow trying to get up and keep my camera out of the snow. By the time I got up, the camera looked like it have been dipped in egg and rolled in flour, it was completely inside a snow ball. I brushed it off as best as I could outside, and brought it inside to dry out. There was ice crystals jambed in around the shutter release button.  A few hours later I tried the camera, and it worked fine. Have had no problems since then. I was impressed, the only worse thing I could have done was to drop it into a deep puddle of water.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: BobH on February 15, 2009, 09:45:12 AM
Hi,

My wife and I were in Antarctica (South Shetlands and peninsula) in December 2007 using Canon 40D and XTi. Weather was +5C to -5C with sun, dense fog, a few showers and snow flurries. We spent many hours on deck as Zodiac travel and onshore. No problems were encountered in 14000 exposures. Cameras were usually just placed in camera pack before returning indoors and left for an hour or two. No other precautions were taken. Often cameras were brought in directly to heated air for picture download. The sealing on the cameras, particularly the XTi, is not up to that of the 5D Mark II.

My 5D Mark II has serial 02201xxx. I am interested whether there were any from this production run on the January 2009 trip. Mine had no obvious symptoms of black dot syndrome although I have updated the firmware to 1.07 just in case. This weather sealing problem is of great concern. Perhaps I should have upgraded to the 50D instead. Also the response of Canon Canada to the corrosion problems reported by Martin and the apparent abrogation of the camera warranty is very unacceptable behaviour on Canon's part.

My 5DII has been used in southern Ontario in cold to -20C and blowing snow during the past month with no problems other than a long warm-up in camera bags when brought indoors.

If there is an equivalent discussion in the (locked) Antarctic Expedition Workshop forum, it would be appreciated if any relevant information is cross-posted here.

Thanks

Bob
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Peter K. Burian on February 15, 2009, 10:50:21 AM
[quote name='BobH' date='Feb 15 2009, 03:45 PM' post='260178']

<<My 5D Mark II has serial 02201xxx. I am interested whether there were any from this production run on the January 2009 trip. Mine had no obvious symptoms of black dot syndrome although I have updated the firmware to 1.07 just in case. This weather sealing problem is of great concern. Perhaps I should have upgraded to the 50D instead. Also the response of Canon Canada to the corrosion problems reported by Martin and the apparent abrogation of the camera warranty is very unacceptable behaviour on Canon's part.

My 5DII has been used in southern Ontario in cold to -20C and blowing snow during the past month with no problems other than a long warm-up in camera bags when brought indoors.>>>

Ellen's 5d II: 02201051xx (no problems in the Falklands, where it got damp often)
 
My 5D II:  02201002xx (no problem the one time it got damp, while shooting in drizzle) Bob: You must have gotten your camera around the same time since our serial numbers are similar. Mine is from Bell'Arte Camera in Hamilton, ON and was one of the first to reach Canada.

Peter www.peterkburian.com




Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Peter K. Burian on February 15, 2009, 10:56:59 AM
Quote from: dseelig
That is really about it I am thinking of selling my 1ds mk111 and going with 2 5d mk11's I have one 5d mk11 . I saw a post in another forum the 5d mk11 did not do so well in anartica what happened with it?

Yeah, but even more posts from people who own a 5D II and have NOT had problems after they got wet.

I have read all the posts and still don't understand what was unique about the Antarctica situation. Not that cold, not salt spray, etc. There are some theories about the use of camera bags or plastic bags after the cameras got wet, but it's still not possible to figure out what went wrong.

My friend Ellen shot in a simliar situation in the Falkland Islands in January and had no problems at all. <<It got wet at least twice (I mean two separate days)  but I tried to dry it off and protect it when the rain became more than a drizzle.  One day we had rain storms maybe every 10 - 15 minutes that lasted just long enough to get your gear back in the bag and hunker down over it (on a cliff) for a few minutes.  I know it got wet and damp then as well as one day that it was wet and windy all day long.  But I never had it out in pouring rain.  Mostly it was just rain but given the amount of wind, I'm sure there was salt water in the air too.>>

Peter www.peterkburian.com
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Rickard Hansson on February 15, 2009, 03:47:47 PM
Quote from: soboyle
For what it is worth, I took my 5D mk2 out cross country skiing, with the intent to shoot some landscapes along the way.
I was in vermont, very cold weather, near 0 F. A short way into the ski I fell into 3' deep powder snow, and ended up floundering around in the snow trying to get up and keep my camera out of the snow. By the time I got up, the camera looked like it have been dipped in egg and rolled in flour, it was completely inside a snow ball. I brushed it off as best as I could outside, and brought it inside to dry out. There was ice crystals jambed in around the shutter release button.  A few hours later I tried the camera, and it worked fine. Have had no problems since then. I was impressed, the only worse thing I could have done was to drop it into a deep puddle of water.

"Dry snow" is never a problem as it has not turned into water. The same goes for very cold weather. The problem is weather conditions around 0 degrees celsius and or if you go from warm to cold and vice versa.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: framah on February 15, 2009, 04:15:16 PM
My mind keeps coming back the the idea that somehow the rain covers are actually creating  a situation that causes the failure. Seems that the most failures were while even using rain covers while other people who used a towel to wipe it off had no problems.

If you have a camera in a plastic bag of sorts and it is cold in there and then you put your hot little hand(s) in the bag to shoot... will the heat from your hands cause a condensation on the inside of the bag?

A long shot, I know but could something like this be possible??  


Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: soboyle on February 15, 2009, 04:29:23 PM
Quote from: Rickard Hansson
"Dry snow" is never a problem as it has not turned into water.
Bear in mind that my camera was warm when I took it out, so the snow immediately started to melt on contact, I can assure you, it was very wet by the time it went back inside.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Chris Sanderson on February 15, 2009, 05:14:25 PM
Again speculation, but I have wondered if the extra heat generated by Live View & movie shooting doesn't increase the relative humidity inside the camera which then on cooling leads to condensation...
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Ed Bacon on February 15, 2009, 06:58:33 PM
I was one of the 6 failures. My camera did recover; mine is in the range of suspect serial numbers, which I reported to Canon Tech Support. My 40D had far greater exposure to the elements than my 5D II. One day I never took the 5D out of the bag, I only changed lenses on the 40D in the field and the 40D often came back on the zodiac completely exposed. Both where used about equally (when functioning), but went through the same regime and care, yet the 40D did not skip a beat.

It snowed last night and I took some photos this morning and noticed my breath condensing on the LCD, should I be worried? ... just kidding.

What I find incredible is how this topic has taken shape on the web and in various forums. The Nikon fan boys use this to trash Canon. The Canon fan boys question the sanity or behavior of we who have failures. Well, 6 out of 25 is not a statistically significant sample of all the 5D Mark II manufactured prior to January. It is significant if you consider the approximately 160 cameras on the trip, or cameras made with ids 032010xxxx (maybe 7,000).

I am going with a bad manufacturing run and not something systemic to the 5D Mark II.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: DavidB on February 15, 2009, 07:31:19 PM
I do feel for Martin and the others who had problems on this trip, but I'm still very happy and confident in my 5DmkII (which was on the same trip).  I had no problems.

FWIW, when off the boat I carried my gear in a SlingShot 300AW.  I had a 40D and a 5DmkII, and on shore most of the time one had a 100-400mm lens, the other had a 24-105mm.  I also had a 17-40mm that got used on shore a couple of times.  The bodies were stowed in the bag with the lenses attached.  I did change lenses on shore a couple of times.

On the early landings we had with lots of rain, I was using a single body at a time, with a simple Optech Rainsleeve bag over it.  I did use the cameras uncovered in the rain a couple of times, but only for light rain and wiped the rain off soon or put the bag on (drying the camera first of course).  Some landings I left the SlingShot on the beach, but not when there was rain.  When traversing the ocean in a zodiac, the SlingShot was on its side in a Seal Line WideMouth Duffle between my feet (a waterproof bag which should even float if it goes overboard).  This arrangement allowed me to open the duffle, reach in, open the side of the SlingShot and extract/insert a camera with lens if I was shooting from the zodiac.  I did also have a G9 with UW housing which I used over the side of the zodiacs and for general shooting where water might have been an issue.  I'm sure I missed some opportunities when my SLRs were buried away (and I'll probably operate slightly differently next time ) but overall I'm happy with the result.

I usually also had a small towel inside the duffle.  When on shore the duffle was left with the lifejackets/etc above the beach.  On the early landings where it was steadily raining I used the AW cover over the SlingShot on my back.  The bag did still get damp from the rain running down my back (outside my jacket).  When a camera went into the SlingShot the Rainsleeve was removed.  There was always some moisture inside the sleeve from condensation, even when out in the cold wind for ages.

I was generally impressed by the Kata raincovers, thinking I should have taken one.  I don't know if some people left their raincovers on all the way back onto the ship and into their cabins without drying off the internal moisture?  Lots of similar operational issues were surely factors, as well as any construction issues.

I don't think I "mollycoddled" my cameras, and I think they performed very well.  But then for years I've been using EOS bodies (D30, 10D, 20D, 350D, 30D, 40D) in environments such as the Serengeti, outback Australia, pelagic birding trips (small fishing boats on the open ocean), tropical jungles and mountains in Borneo/Laos, etc and have never had a body failure (apart from a loose connector inside the D30, BG-E2 failures on the 20D [but that was a P.O.S.], an issue with dust around the hotshoe of the 20D blocking use of the internal flash, and one time I dropped the 30D).  Dust, snow, rain, humidity, dew (think star trails), etc.  Maybe it's because I'm lucky.  But the 5DmkII didn't disappoint.

Maybe a manufacturing issue with a batch of cameras was a factor.  Mine has a reasonably different serial number than the failures identified so far.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: bernivd on February 16, 2009, 06:40:25 AM
just to ad a "no problem" to this topic:
I really badly synchronised my shooting dates with the weather  : Just back from a couple of days shooting in heavy snowfall and temperatures between 0 - -15 °C in the swiss alps. From time to time the mk2 got totally covered with snow and was wet all over the place. I didn't take to much care, because I relied on the the extra weather sealing (hadn't read the Antarctica report untill now  ). Made stills and videos.
Care: outdoors I "dried" the camera with my shirt or a little lens cleaning towel, tried to avoid condensation when entering heated buildings.  Sometimes it was hanging uncovered over my shoulder, sometimes sitting in a semiclosed lowepro toploader on the side of my backpack. The camera worked without any problem. And now I'm looking forward to use the camera also in sunny weather   .
Cheers
Bernard
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Jerry Clement on February 16, 2009, 08:46:08 AM
I have been following along with interest, as I am planning on purchasing a 5D mkII shortly. I was somewhat surprised when I read about the issues with moisture doing a number on the various 5d mkI's on the Antarctia expedition. I am out in the back country of the Alberta Rockies weekly in the past year and at no time have I had issues with my 40d that has taken tumbles (should see the LCD), and been through a lot of rain laiden days with no protection for the camera. It has performed flawlessly and I would have expected the 5d mkII to give at least as good. I would hope it was just a bad batch of 5d mkII bodies and Canon has resolved the problem. We shall see.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Pelao on February 16, 2009, 12:41:04 PM
A general comment...

One of the reasons I like the LL forums is the opportunity to learn from experienced photographers. Many of the other forums feature posturing, some hysteria and what seems to be called 'fan-boy' behaviour. Kind of funny / disturbing to read, but utterly useless. When do these people find time to make photographs?

This thread illustrates my point. Generally, the comments are well informed, and so in turn informative. The 5DMK2 is an important camera , but especially so for photographers invested in Canon glass. Some of those posting here have had an intensely irritating experience: a heavy investment in something that did not work as expected. Yet most are reasoning their way through the experience, while others are adding useful suggestions as to what they problem might be.

As someone who is in the exact target market for this camera, I appreciate  everyone taking the time to contribute to the discussion.


Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: chrisgibbs on February 16, 2009, 09:21:04 PM
Quote from: Chrissand
Again speculation, but I have wondered if the extra heat generated by Live View & movie shooting doesn't increase the relative humidity inside the camera which then on cooling leads to condensation...

Makes one wonder Chris!

On a side note; most of us who live and work in cold/wet climates have gotten a feel for the importance of keeping kit *well aired*...........  

I could see your theory about the heat generated by the sensor with live view OR chimping becoming a problem if the kit is kept in a poor environment.  Yet, what constitutes a poor environment (for the 5Dll) has to yet be established!

I'm working with a 5Dll in pretty bad conditions (and on a daily basis) too.  Going in and out of a vehicle/studio, kit is just left in a ThinkTank case, unless I'm shooting or pulling a card etc, no problems to report so far.

On a side note; I'm not chimping (check the first frame/histogram), not using live view (or video) and rarely does the camera sit atop a tripod.  Camera is pulled from the  bag, used, then wiped down with a cloth (that's always kept in pocket so it never freezes) then camera returned to bag and I move on to the next shot.  I've tried, covers, ziplocks etc. but to be honest they always cause as many problems as they solve.

Kind of makes you think, KISS and carry a backup, just like we always did way back when!

Regards,
Chris Gibbs
Alaska

http://www.chrisgibbs.com (http://www.chrisgibbs.com)
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Chris Sanderson on February 17, 2009, 02:00:28 PM
Quote from: chrisgibbs
Camera is pulled from the  bag, used, then wiped down with a cloth (that's always kept in pocket so it never freezes) then camera returned to bag and I move on to the next shot.
Just what I was doing for those first three days - except I was shooting lots of video.  
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: chrisgibbs on February 17, 2009, 05:55:59 PM
Quote from: Chrissand
Just what I was doing for those first three days - except I was shooting lots of video.  

I suppose the 64,000 dollar question(s) is:

1.  Who had a failure of the 5Dll *AND DIDN'T* shoot video
2.  Any Nikon D90 (daily and main camera) video shooters on the trip

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Plekto on February 18, 2009, 12:28:32 AM
If you're shooting video, it requires you to press and hold the shutter, right?

If there's current flowing through the circuitry, then that would explain it.  Video mode plus marine environment=fail/defect.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: SteveBlack on February 18, 2009, 01:58:50 PM
Another 5dm2 user from the trip with no problems.  My shooting summary:

- Used Kata rain cover with any significant rain
     - it did get drops on it from time to time, wiped off with hand / towel
     - but when using a rain cover, didn't seal the bottom of it so there wasn't a risk of condensation due to temperature differential
- Had a battery grip on it the whole time
- Shot quite a bit of video on top of stills
- tried to be cautious moving from outside to inside - but there were really only 2 days where the differential was great enough to cause condensation
- changed lenses frequently, but never when raining

Certainly a surprising number of failures - though thankfully everyone had backups.  I would've been incredibly frustrated if my brand new camera failed and I had to go back to a few year old 40d - especially in conditions that are mild compared to what my 40d has seen!

Great camera, but worrying set of issues from a small sample.

Steve


Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: canlogic on February 18, 2009, 02:53:20 PM
Another report.

http://www.afashionshooter.com/2009/02/08/canon-5d2-so-long/ (http://www.afashionshooter.com/2009/02/08/canon-5d2-so-long/)
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Bill in WV on February 19, 2009, 03:32:45 AM
I've been reading the entire thread and found myself wondering about the serial numbers and possible assembly points or different suppliers for different manufacturing runs before the serial numbers were even mentioned. These points also have occurred to me:

I see an awful lot of Canon hardware on the sidelines at NFL games where the weather is at least as bad as these travelers encountered.

Those arguing that this is a camera less able to encounter day to day climatic changes because it is not in the 1Dxx class must be somewhat daft; this 5DII is running $2,700 for the body alone, I'm sorry but in my neighborhood, that is well out of the consumer catagory and it should be well up to professional use standards. Even the  30D, 40D, and 50D are making their professional owners a lot of money.

Chris S., where does your serial number fall in this collection? And did the failed 5DIIs appear to come from any single region? In the thread it seems like a lot of them were from Canada.

I have D60 which I bought used off eBay in 2005 and have to converted to IR, a 30D (which I have managed to drop once without a problem), an Xsi, and a G9. Too many lenses with only one "L" and I'd really like to have a 5DII sometime soon. I'm afraid it may have to wait a year or so but that may be a good thing with all this going on.

One last comment; Moose Peterson in a recent video on Kelby Training says that he always just covers his cameras with a towel until they are up to room temperature. I can see a certain logic in that as it allows the camera to breathe and the condensation to be captured in the towel and evaporated before it gets to the camera. He says it works for him.

Bill in WV
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Chris Sanderson on February 19, 2009, 09:54:05 AM
Quote from: Bill in WV
Chris S., where does your serial number fall in this collection? And did the failed 5DIIs appear to come from any single region? In the thread it seems like a lot of them were from Canada.

Here is the link (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=31913) to that thread. I am not certain that anything definitive can be concluded from the serial #s of the cameras that failed.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Wayne Fox on February 20, 2009, 01:43:52 PM
Quote from: Plekto
If you're shooting video, it requires you to press and hold the shutter, right?

If there's current flowing through the circuitry, then that would explain it.  Video mode plus marine environment=fail/defect.

No. You press the button on the back inside the adjustment dial to start video capture.  You press again to stop. The shutter release takes a still image if pressed during video capture.

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Plekto on February 20, 2009, 05:37:23 PM
Thanks for clarifying that.  So it appears as if it's just a design problem.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: PierreVandevenne on February 20, 2009, 06:37:56 PM
I've got a somewhat strange, still somewhat uncertain, issue with my 5D MK II as well. Every time I use it with my 24-70L, the lens focus hunts abruptly, a bit as if it was stuck. It always reaches focus, but not smoothly. If I then put the lens on a 5D or 40D right after removing it from the MK II the problem persists but if I put it on a 1DS2, the lens resumes normal, smooth operation. The issue never starts on the 5D, 40D and 1DS2. The lens hasn't been bumped recently. I first thought it was either a coincidence, or the start of an AF motor failure. But I have been able to repeat the process of creating and solving the issue as described above 4-5 times now. The MKII doesn't have any major focus issue with my other lenses... A bit puzzling.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: chrisgibbs on February 22, 2009, 03:51:46 PM
Quote from: Chrissand
Here is the link (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=31913) to that thread. I am not certain that anything definitive can be concluded from the serial #s of the cameras that failed.

Chris S.

The card door on the 5Dll cuts power to the camera!  Open the card door and *there's a big black hole* that's NOT weather sealed (we're changing cards too, right)!  What's in there, what cuts the camera power, is it mechanical?

I realize there's a cut-off switch of some kind in and around the hinging mechanism on the card door, could it be so simple as moisture getting in that moving joint *when cards are changed*?

Just a thought, Occam's razor being what it is  

Cheers,
Chris Gibbs
http://www.chrisgibbs.com (http://www.chrisgibbs.com)
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: acktdi on February 23, 2009, 06:21:58 PM
I just returned from Antarctica on the Quark ship Lyubov Orlova, it was the 12 day Classic Antarctica trip.  I brought a 5dm2, 40d, 100-400, 17-40, 70-200f2.8l, 580exii.  We had light drizzle on the way there, through the Drake Passage.  It was sunny the rest of the time, temps between 25-45F.  I shot while on the zodiac and didn't take any precautions about salt spray other than wiping it off from time to time.

I would usually leave my camera in my bag after an outdoor shoot to let it stabilize in temperature, but there were times where I went directly inside and opened up the battery and CF door.  I only had 1 glitch, where the camera stopped responding - I had to reseat the battery, it was after taking 9000 continuous shots for a time lapse, using the canon remote timer.

I even dropped the 5dm2 with 100-400 attached from a height of 4ft onto the metal deck of the ship when I forgot to tighten the tripod quick release knob of my acratech ballhead.  It bounced a couple times, left a scuff on the lens hood and corner of the camera but was still 100% functional.

My cabin mate also had a 5dm2, his camera became unresponsive after recording a movie.  When he reseated the battery, the movie file was missing but no other issues were encountered.

Alvin
http://ch4n.com (http://ch4n.com)
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Chris Sanderson on February 24, 2009, 12:01:33 PM
Quote from: chrisgibbs
I realize there's a cut-off switch of some kind in and around the hinging mechanism on the card door, could it be so simple as moisture getting in that moving joint *when cards are changed*?

Again possible... but I never had to change cards outdoors. The 8GB CFs were more than enough for each landing.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: schrodingerscat on February 25, 2009, 11:47:18 PM
Quote from: chrisgibbs
Chris S.

The card door on the 5Dll cuts power to the camera!  Open the card door and *there's a big black hole* that's NOT weather sealed (we're changing cards too, right)!  What's in there, what cuts the camera power, is it mechanical?

I realize there's a cut-off switch of some kind in and around the hinging mechanism on the card door, could it be so simple as moisture getting in that moving joint *when cards are changed*?

Just a thought, Occam's razor being what it is  

Cheers,
Chris Gibbs
http://www.chrisgibbs.com (http://www.chrisgibbs.com)

There's a detect switch for the CF door. A tab on the door closes this when the door is closed. There's also one for the battery door and both cut power when open. This is true for all Canons. There is also a battery detect switch at the bottom of the battery compartment on the mid and high level SLR's. Care is needed if cleaning the battery contacts to make sure this switch isn't damaged. Most Nikons only have the memory door switch.

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: schrodingerscat on February 26, 2009, 12:13:31 AM
Quote from: PierreVandevenne
I've got a somewhat strange, still somewhat uncertain, issue with my 5D MK II as well. Every time I use it with my 24-70L, the lens focus hunts abruptly, a bit as if it was stuck. It always reaches focus, but not smoothly. If I then put the lens on a 5D or 40D right after removing it from the MK II the problem persists but if I put it on a 1DS2, the lens resumes normal, smooth operation. The issue never starts on the 5D, 40D and 1DS2. The lens hasn't been bumped recently. I first thought it was either a coincidence, or the start of an AF motor failure. But I have been able to repeat the process of creating and solving the issue as described above 4-5 times now. The MKII doesn't have any major focus issue with my other lenses... A bit puzzling.


Not that unusual. This stuff has gotten so sophisticated that I think it's bumping into the complexity barrier. If you have a lens that exhibits this sort of behavior, try twisting it back and forth slightly while mounted on the camera. There's usually a bit of play and some play in the circuit contacts between the lens and body. It's just a matter of finding the place where everything is lined up properly. Also clean the contacts on the body and lenses occasionally.

This has nothing to do with design or build qualities. Both the lenses and bodies are cranked out by the thousands, if not millions, and there is always a chance of bringing two together that will not play nice. Especially true with a mix of equipment from different vintages.

Like spots on the sensor, just the nature of the beast. I'm amazed it all works as well as it does, and the more automation we demand the more problems will rear their ugly heads.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: thecyclists on August 23, 2009, 12:35:39 PM
Just wanted to add my experience with the 5D mkII.

I bought it on June 15h and since then I have used it indoor and outdoor in good weather (no rain at all).

On July 22nd a friend of me and I was going to see a stage of the Tour de France. We drove to the finish area and the plan was to go to the last mountain pass to watch the stage. Before we start walking I put the camera with a 16-35 2.8 L II in a plastic bag, since a thunderstorm was heading in our direction. We had some rain showers on our way to the maintain pass. It cleared up when we stopped (2 hours later). I took the camera out of the plastic bag and turned it on. When I took a picture I noticed that something was wrong with the shutter. The display said "Err 30".

I thought about moisture and removed the batteries, the lens and the CF card, but even days after I still got the same error.

When I returned to Norway the camera was sent for service. Several days later I got the message "All electronics had to be changed due to corrosion". I got some pictures of the damage: 5D damages (http://www.dahl-stamnes.net/dahls/Ymse/5d/index.html).

I cannot explain why storing a camera in a plastic bag could cause such damages.

BTW 1: I also got an 3 1/2 year old 30D body, which have been exposed to light rain and wet snow several times without any problems. So if the 5D mkII has "improved weather sealing"... I wonder - compared to what? It does not seem to be as good as the 30D.

BTW 2: My 1DmkIII saved my trip to France.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: ihv on August 23, 2009, 01:34:11 PM
I have used a 5D (not Mk2) when climbing on the top of Mount-Blanc without any issues.
As there are quite a few reports with Mk2 failures I started to wondering whether those
weather seals are doing any good, this far seems to be opposite.

Quote from: thecyclists
Just wanted to add my experience with the 5D mkII.

I bought it on June 15h and since then I have used it indoor and outdoor in good weather (no rain at all).

On July 22nd a friend of me and I was going to see a stage of the Tour de France. We drove to the finish area and the plan was to go to the last mountain pass to watch the stage. Before we start walking I put the camera with a 16-35 2.8 L II in a plastic bag, since a thunderstorm was heading in our direction. We had some rain showers on our way to the maintain pass. It cleared up when we stopped (2 hours later). I took the camera out of the plastic bag and turned it on. When I took a picture I noticed that something was wrong with the shutter. The display said "Err 30".

I thought about moisture and removed the batteries, the lens and the CF card, but even days after I still got the same error.

When I returned to Norway the camera was sent for service. Several days later I got the message "All electronics had to be changed due to corrosion". I got some pictures of the damage: 5D damages (http://www.dahl-stamnes.net/dahls/Ymse/5d/index.html).

I cannot explain why storing a camera in a plastic bag could cause such damages.

BTW 1: I also got an 3 1/2 year old 30D body, which have been exposed to light rain and wet snow several times without any problems. So if the 5D mkII has "improved weather sealing"... I wonder - compared to what? It does not seem to be as good as the 30D.

BTW 2: My 1DmkIII saved my trip to France.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: eleanorbrown on August 23, 2009, 02:15:34 PM
I took my 5D II kayaking in antarctica where it got splashed and wet from lcy water. no problems.  also a few weeks ago here in Colorado I photographed a parade in Fairplay, CO where we stood in rain and sleet most of the parade.  My 5D II got very wet and still had no problems. Eleanor


Quote from: ihv
I have used a 5D (not Mk2) when climbing on the top of Mount-Blanc without any issues.
As there are quite a few reports with Mk2 failures I started to wondering whether those
weather seals are doing any good, this far seems to be opposite.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: ihv on August 23, 2009, 03:07:09 PM
Nice to hear! I hope these bad examples were quality issues and will be/are sorted out.

Quote from: eleanorbrown
I took my 5D II kayaking in antarctica where it got splashed and wet from lcy water. no problems.  also a few weeks ago here in Colorado I photographed a parade in Fairplay, CO where we stood in rain and sleet most of the parade.  My 5D II got very wet and still had no problems. Eleanor
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: thecyclists on August 23, 2009, 05:43:28 PM
Quote from: ihv
Nice to hear! I hope these bad examples were quality issues and will be/are sorted out.

Hope so... but I'm stucked with a damaged house that will not be replaced  
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Pelao on August 24, 2009, 10:21:04 AM
It would be nice to hear from Canon on all of this, but I suspect this is unlikely. Apparently Nikon had an issue with moisture on some D700's around the lcd, and they too were silent (at least to the best of my knowledge).

From all the reports I have read it seems the 5DII can handle direct water and moisture largely OK - but has a problem with condensation. However, that's just my reading.

I really hope they sort this out. This camera is the logical next step for me, but this issue causes concern. This is one of those times when being invested in one brand's glass leaves you in a tough spot.

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: uaiomex on August 24, 2009, 11:15:49 AM
That would explain what happenned to thecyclist's 5D2. When he said "plastic bag" I thought about that. But still... corroded in 3 hours? Maybe it has to be with the electrical current and the different kind of metals.

[quote name='Pelao' date='Aug 24 2009, 09:21 AM' post='305690']

From all the reports I have read it seems the 5DII can handle direct water and moisture largely OK - but has a problem with condensation. However, that's just my reading.

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: harlemshooter on August 24, 2009, 11:26:05 AM
Approx what range is your serial number?

Just curious.


Quote from: thecyclists
Hope so... but I'm stucked with a damaged house that will not be replaced  
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: eronald on August 24, 2009, 07:31:03 PM
The images look like a manufacturing issue unless some really corroding stuff got inot the camera which seems unlikely. Water condensation alone cannot cause the corrosion indicated, I believe. Especially one bit is at a spot which should be prtected by varnish. Or lese there is some corrosive stuff inside the camera which can get picked up by condensation.

I'm an engineer, I still design electronics occasionnally, but I'm no expert - maybe an expert can speak here?

Edmund

Quote from: thecyclists
Just wanted to add my experience with the 5D mkII.

I bought it on June 15h and since then I have used it indoor and outdoor in good weather (no rain at all).

On July 22nd a friend of me and I was going to see a stage of the Tour de France. We drove to the finish area and the plan was to go to the last mountain pass to watch the stage. Before we start walking I put the camera with a 16-35 2.8 L II in a plastic bag, since a thunderstorm was heading in our direction. We had some rain showers on our way to the maintain pass. It cleared up when we stopped (2 hours later). I took the camera out of the plastic bag and turned it on. When I took a picture I noticed that something was wrong with the shutter. The display said "Err 30".

I thought about moisture and removed the batteries, the lens and the CF card, but even days after I still got the same error.

When I returned to Norway the camera was sent for service. Several days later I got the message "All electronics had to be changed due to corrosion". I got some pictures of the damage: 5D damages (http://www.dahl-stamnes.net/dahls/Ymse/5d/index.html).

I cannot explain why storing a camera in a plastic bag could cause such damages.

BTW 1: I also got an 3 1/2 year old 30D body, which have been exposed to light rain and wet snow several times without any problems. So if the 5D mkII has "improved weather sealing"... I wonder - compared to what? It does not seem to be as good as the 30D.

BTW 2: My 1DmkIII saved my trip to France.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: mrenters on August 25, 2009, 07:56:05 AM
My 5D2 failed during the Antarctica 2009 trip and still hasn't recovered completely despite having been a guest at Canon Service for 3.5 months of its life. When I first sent it in after the Antarctica trip they replaced the sensor and a PCB. I got it back 2 months later and then I had multiple Err 70 problems with it.  I sent it in again and after a month and a half they sent it back saying that after "extensive testing" they were unable to find anything wrong with it.  This weekend while shooting studio scenes it again had multiple Err 70 problems.

Martin
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: eronald on August 25, 2009, 12:55:48 PM
I think at this point it is officially a "lemon" and they have to replace it.

Edmund

Quote from: mrenters
My 5D2 failed during the Antarctica 2009 trip and still hasn't recovered completely despite having been a guest at Canon Service for 3.5 months of its life. When I first sent it in after the Antarctica trip they replaced the sensor and a PCB. I got it back 2 months later and then I had multiple Err 70 problems with it.  I sent it in again and after a month and a half they sent it back saying that after "extensive testing" they were unable to find anything wrong with it.  This weekend while shooting studio scenes it again had multiple Err 70 problems.

Martin
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: mrenters on August 25, 2009, 02:02:28 PM
Quote from: eronald
I think at this point it is officially a "lemon" and they have to replace it.

Edmund

That would be nice, but unfortunately Canon has chosen not to see it that way.

Martin
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: thecyclists on August 25, 2009, 04:12:01 PM
Quote from: harlemshooter
Approx what range is your serial number?

Just curious.

The serial number is 8605xxxxxxx

Today I spoked with someone that work with electronics. They use to test printed circuits boards (PCB) in a "salt fog chamber" (not sure about the english word for this). The damages shown on the pictures are even worse that what they have on bad PCBs. The damages to the PCB in the 5D mkII is probably caused due to a bad cleaned PCB (all PCBs must be cleaned after the components has been soldered to the PCB).

It may take some time before Canon contact me. I'll update this thread when I know more.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: uncommondepth on August 25, 2009, 09:05:06 PM
You can add my name to the list of 5D MKII owners with a camera failure of this nature. Similar situation - using the camera in rainy weather (no salt water though) with the camera completely covered. Camera was kept dry but failed anyway. Now I'm on day 4 of a 14 day trip and have no camera. I am very pissed off right now! More like furious!

Haven't completely read through all the posts here to see what Canon is doing, but they better be doing more than what I read in the first few pages. A 50% discount on a new camera, or repair without extended warranty is not going to be good enough.

Roberta
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: mrenters on August 25, 2009, 09:19:12 PM
Quote from: uncommondepth
You can add my name to the list of 5D MKII owners with a camera failure of this nature. Similar situation - using the camera in rainy weather (no salt water though) with the camera completely covered. Camera was kept dry but failed anyway. Now I'm on day 4 of a 14 day trip and have no camera. I am very pissed off right now! More like furious!

Haven't completely read through all the posts here to see what Canon is doing, but they better be doing more than what I read in the first few pages. A 50% discount on a new camera, or repair without extended warranty is not going to be good enough.

Roberta

At least here in Canada, Canon will tell you that water damage is not covered by the warranty so you're basically out of luck.  They made a special exception for our two cameras, probably because it happened on a well documented trip, but when I sent it in for the Err 70 problem the new service manager told me that they should have never fixed it in the first place.  I can understand them denying warranty if someone dunks their camera in a bucket of water, but using it in a light drizzle should not cause these types of failures in a camera advertised as having "improved weather sealing".  They told me I should have used a 1 series camera.

My original 5D has seen similar usage and hasn't had any problems.

It is good to hear that there are other cases like this. Perhaps if enough people are having this problem they'll take it more seriously.

Martin
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Pelao on August 26, 2009, 07:24:38 AM
Quote from: mrenters
At least here in Canada, Canon will tell you that water damage is not covered by the warranty so you're basically out of luck.  They made a special exception for our two cameras, probably because it happened on a well documented trip, but when I sent it in for the Err 70 problem the new service manager told me that they should have never fixed it in the first place.  I can understand them denying warranty if someone dunks their camera in a bucket of water, but using it in a light drizzle should not cause these types of failures in a camera advertised as having "improved weather sealing".  They told me I should have used a 1 series camera.

My original 5D has seen similar usage and hasn't had any problems.

It is good to hear that there are other cases like this. Perhaps if enough people are having this problem they'll take it more seriously.

Martin

Really sorry to hear of your troubles. Incredibly disappointing both in the performance of the camera and in Canon's response.

All of this really makes me question my next purchase. I prefer to shoot FF. I am happy with my 5D, but it won't last forever and will likely need to be replaced in the next year. It would be somewhat painful financially to purchase a Nikon (I suppose a D700 or it's successor)  due to my lens investment, but I need some tolerance for dampness.  My 5D seems able to handle it. On the other hand, I only have 2 L lenses and should get decent prices for them.

Anyway, I too hope  that enough people bother Canon that they fix your camera.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: DanLehman on September 06, 2009, 01:03:43 PM
Quote
Getting them fixed but being without a warranty on a camera ...

Are warranties transferrable to a buyer if you sold the cameras?
If not, then their lack of such would be a non-issue, per se.
.:.  You could get the repair sans warranty, use and (hope-hope) verify
proper functioning (dry, at least!),
and then sell them.
Maybe that cuts your loss?

--------
To the various testimonies:  we must keep in mind that simply "getting the camera wet"
cannot be equated to another's same situation -- who knows exactly how the wetness
goes, whether it reaches the same places, et cetera.  We could all go walk in the woods,
generally, and have various getting or not getting poison ivy or ticks.  It's not as though
for some collection of cameras all were provided with exactly a 2ml drop of water at
THIS position on the shutter and ... .
So, really, the cases of failure I think speak to a (potential) problem,
notwithstanding those that so far have been without.

To mrenters case:  could your (two) prior usage have been at fault for putting
the cameras into a condition that was then aggravated by the Antarctic conditions?
-- that some moisture effects occurred on a prior time but so far had not the
follow-on moisture to aggravate the condition; but on the trip, got that and so
quickly failed?

--------
How quickly can corrosion form?  I'm thinking:  can one get wetness on the Alpe D'Huez
on Monday with no corrosion (or does it come a quickly from current...?), but by the
time one can deliver the camera to Canon repair, next week +, corrosion has set in?
Of course, in the mean time it should have well dried.

Btw, what was that apparent hair/crack?/wire on the white plastic "PUSH" connector?
(of the thecyclists photos of corrosion damage)  >>> IMAGE #1 <<<
-- a crack, or some bit of <?> ?!  It ran across all of the wire ends.


--dl*
====
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: mrenters on September 07, 2009, 10:17:32 AM
Quote from: DanLehman
Are warranties transferrable to a buyer if you sold the cameras?
If not, then their lack of such would be a non-issue, per se.
.:.  You could get the repair sans warranty, use and (hope-hope) verify
proper functioning (dry, at least!),
and then sell them.
Maybe that cuts your loss?

Canon service appears to be non-responsive at this point.  If there weren't the cost in switching systems I would have switched by now out of sheer frustration.  My experience has certainly cured me of buying any further Canon equipment.


Quote
To mrenters case:  could your (two) prior usage have been at fault for putting
the cameras into a condition that was then aggravated by the Antarctic conditions?
-- that some moisture effects occurred on a prior time but so far had not the
follow-on moisture to aggravate the condition; but on the trip, got that and so
quickly failed?

The cameras were brand new and had only had a few pictures taken with them.  All of these were taken indoors or outdoors in sunny or overcast conditions (no rain or moisture).

Martin
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: telyt on September 07, 2009, 12:36:04 PM
This (and other 5DII problems) along with the 1DIII focus problems makes me wonder why so many are willing to jump to the next cheap Canon wundercamera, the 7D, before it's been adequately tested.  Rewarding Canon for their recent failures?  Fanboys?  Gottahavethelatest?  It seems Canon is getting the message: cheap is good, QC be damned.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Slough on September 07, 2009, 05:45:50 PM
I find this Antarctica saga, parts 1 and 2, very curious. In general forums are not full of whiney Canon users complaining about damaged Canon cameras due to water ingress. And yet the number of failures of Canon cameras on both trips is horrendous. The total number of Nikon bodies probably is statistically significant (a guess, I'm no statistician), in which case Canon are nowhere near as good as Nikon at surviving MR's Antarctica trips. (Note how careful I've been to draw very limited conclusions.) So what is going on? Surely the users have a random sample of cameras. So why so many failures? Could there be some common factor that stresses the cameras more than normal, in such a way that is more harmful to Canon gear? Did the particpants ship their gear in the unpressurised hold of an aircraft? In which case maybe pressure changes stressed the seals? Or were there large temperature differences between the cabins and the outside? I'm guessing, but Canon users on forums get really twitchy when these trips are mentioned. It is bad publicity for Canon, that is for sure.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 07, 2009, 07:17:16 PM
Quote from: Slough
Could there be some common factor that stresses the cameras more than normal, in such a way that is more harmful to Canon gear? Did the particpants ship their gear in the unpressurised hold of an aircraft? In which case maybe pressure changes stressed the seals? Or were there large temperature differences between the cabins and the outside? I'm guessing, but Canon users on forums get really twitchy when these trips are mentioned. It is bad publicity for Canon, that is for sure.

From what we hear, conditions during that trip were much milder than what many of us experience on a regular basis in other locations. The key probably lies in the mix of sea wind deposited salt and condensation.

Canon never claimed that the 5DII was fully weatherproof, did them? They just claimed that the sealing had been re-inforced. A body that is not fully weatherproof is not weatherproof. Light rain is not an issue because it doesn't hit many parts of the body. On the other hand condensation will show up everywhere, and is going to dilute salt deposited by sea winds, and this salty water has the potential to enter through these non protected areas and cause corrosion.

On the other hand Nikon clearly insisted on the weather resistance of the D300, D700, D3 and D3x. Is there more to this story than the intended usage of these respective cameras? Canon is still selling the 1ds3 for a reason, and that reason is that they designed and validated the camera in various demanding conditions. Aren't the 5DII users expecting that kind of performance not being a bit un-realistic about their expectations?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Slough on September 08, 2009, 06:18:27 AM
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
From what we hear, conditions during that trip were much milder than what many of us experience on a regular basis in other locations. The key probably lies in the mix of sea wind deposited salt and condensation.

Canon never claimed that the 5DII was fully weatherproof, did them? They just claimed that the sealing had been re-inforced. A body that is not fully weatherproof is not weatherproof. Light rain is not an issue because it doesn't hit many parts of the body. On the other hand condensation will show up everywhere, and is going to dilute salt deposited by sea winds, and this salty water has the potential to enter through these non protected areas and cause corrosion.

On the other hand Nikon clearly insisted on the weather resistance of the D300, D700, D3 and D3x. Is there more to this story than the intended usage of these respective cameras? Canon is still selling the 1ds3 for a reason, and that reason is that they designed and validated the camera in various demanding conditions. Aren't the 5DII users expecting that kind of performance not being a bit un-realistic about their expectations?

Cheers,
Bernard

Well, yes, that is sort of what I might conclude But, mention this on Canon forums and numerous people say they use these cameras in wet conditions, or near the coast without issues (and don't forget some high end ones failed too). So either Canon users with failed cameras are not on forums, or the MR trips were somehow special. Taking what you say, if true then the Antarctic would have to have higher humidity and/or air-salt content than most other coastal situations. My belief is that we really need some kind of database with user experiences i.e. failure, no failure, and length of ownership.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 08, 2009, 07:16:42 AM
Quote from: Slough
Well, yes, that is sort of what I might conclude But, mention this on Canon forums and numerous people say they use these cameras in wet conditions, or near the coast without issues (and don't forget some high end ones failed too). So either Canon users with failed cameras are not on forums, or the MR trips were somehow special. Taking what you say, if true then the Antarctic would have to have higher humidity and/or air-salt content than most other coastal situations. My belief is that we really need some kind of database with user experiences i.e. failure, no failure, and length of ownership.

Yes, not too sure.

It might have to do with the usage pattern, repeated shooting in a sea environment for several weeks with frequent back and forth between inside and outside, and condensation happening several times a day which could have increased the probability of such an event?

As far as the high end failures, it is indeed strange. Many sports shooters shoot in heavy rain with 1dIII without special protection and that has never seemed to be a major problem, but the sea environment might change the game somehow?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Slough on September 08, 2009, 08:14:54 AM
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Yes, not too sure.

It might have to do with the usage pattern, repeated shooting in a sea environment for several weeks with frequent back and forth between inside and outside, and condensation happening several times a day which could have increased the probability of such an event?

As far as the high end failures, it is indeed strange. Many sports shooters shoot in heavy rain with 1dIII without special protection and that has never seemed to be a major problem, but the sea environment might change the game somehow?

Cheers,
Bernard

Yes, that might be it i.e. use in such conditions over a prolonged period, and going in and out of doors which encourages condensation. That last bit is unlikely for most sports and nature shooters surely. So, more salt, and more inducement for condensation. I am prepared to believe that is the explanation, though it is conjecture.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Ben Rubinstein on September 08, 2009, 02:49:35 PM
Quote from: Slough
Well, yes, that is sort of what I might conclude But, mention this on Canon forums and numerous people say they use these cameras in wet conditions, or near the coast without issues (and don't forget some high end ones failed too). So either Canon users with failed cameras are not on forums, or the MR trips were somehow special. Taking what you say, if true then the Antarctic would have to have higher humidity and/or air-salt content than most other coastal situations. My belief is that we really need some kind of database with user experiences i.e. failure, no failure, and length of ownership.

If you're talking about the thread on FM, keep in mind that the canon forum there is full of people who still deny that there was anything ever wrong with the focusing on the 1D mkIII despite all the canon recalls. They blame it on internet hysteria caused by RG that forced Canon to 'pretend' a fix and the problem only ever was user error. I wouldn't really take much notice of them there. The fanboyism to professionalism ratio there is rather horrendous.

According to the 5D mkII white paper it has sealing close to that of the 1N. Now they call the sealing on the 7D equal to the 1N. In other words pretty much the same as the 5D mkII. If only Nikon had a couple more AFS primes, when my 5D's eventually do die (they are both dying from overuse/abuse, 4 years of full time wedding photography) I can't see anything in the Canon stable to even begin to excite me to be honest..
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: dow on October 28, 2009, 04:06:13 PM
Hi,

I just have a very special experience with the 5D mk II and Canons attitude towards their products. After about 9 month of careful amateur use and about 11k of pictures a slight haze of dust starts to show up in the LCD and the rear Monitor. In addition the CF Card Doors squeaks since day one. When I send in the Camera to have the sensor and the mirror-box cleaned I requested Canon to fix the Card Door and take care of the dust since it is claimed to be a kind-of sealed camera within their guarranty. Not that it matters for the image-quality produced by the 5D but just since I think that a camera of that price should have a certain standard of build quality.

The answer of Canon was simple (Translated from German) - We checked and there is no material or production error. The sound and the hold of the CF card door is within the standards of that model. The mentioned dust is normal due to electrostatic charges.

So the squeaking noise is normal if you shoot film - that is probably for the atmosphere.
Well they offered to replace the components for a nice charge which I will not comment.

Despite the really nice image quality - I would not buy the 5d mk II again. I am really surprised about the way Canon handles quality issues with their customers. They should just withdraw any claims on sealing, so no one would be disappointed.

At least I am!

Oliver
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: reburns on October 28, 2009, 11:51:42 PM
Quote from: dow
...We checked and there is no material or production error....

OI had two similar experiences.  One, my 5DII got spashed when photographing the regatta club.  I blotted it dry quickly and removed the battery, but to no surpise it croaked and was sent in for repair.  While sending it to repair, I asked for the exposure mode dial to be tightened because the the dial on the new body could spin inadvertently causing missed shots.  It was returned to me without any change but with the same quote, "checked and it is within specification".  By comparison I once sent in a Contax and the tech I spoke to said he'd adjust to my satisfaction (but no secret that those two are on the opposite ends of the spectrum).  Not sure if warranted but the overall exprience added to my restlessness with Canon and I just hawked it all.     - Ralph
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Christopher on October 29, 2009, 12:35:12 AM
It really is interesting. Perhaps Canon has really wide standards. I can only talk of my 5DMk2, which I used in rain, fog and snow quite often over 10 months now and it works still as it should. No problems at all. However I would never put it into a plastic bag, that kills even a sealed camera. No sealing protects of condensation.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 29, 2009, 02:04:28 AM
Hi,

As far as I understand six Canon 5DIIs failed the same day in conditions that were more humid than wet. Very little other equipment failed on the same trip. My guess is that those Canons may have had a weak spot that may have been fixed in later batches as a part of a continuous improvement program. The environmental conditions specified for cameras are normally really narrow and benign, fortunately the camera take much more beating than specified.

The Canon 5DII is not a professional grade model, the 1DsIII is probably better sealed.

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Yes, not too sure.

It might have to do with the usage pattern, repeated shooting in a sea environment for several weeks with frequent back and forth between inside and outside, and condensation happening several times a day which could have increased the probability of such an event?

As far as the high end failures, it is indeed strange. Many sports shooters shoot in heavy rain with 1dIII without special protection and that has never seemed to be a major problem, but the sea environment might change the game somehow?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: ThomasPoeschmann on October 29, 2009, 03:32:31 AM
Quote from: dow
I just have a very special experience with the 5D mk II and Canons attitude towards their products. After about 9 month of careful amateur use and about 11k of pictures a slight haze of dust starts to show up in the LCD and the rear Monitor. In addition the CF Card Doors squeaks since day one. When I send in the Camera to have the sensor and the mirror-box cleaned I requested Canon to fix the Card Door and take care of the dust since it is claimed to be a kind-of sealed camera within their guarranty. Not that it matters for the image-quality produced by the 5D but just since I think that a camera of that price should have a certain standard of build quality.

1.200 pictures a month
40 pictures each day

I do not call this "amateur".

Quote
The answer of Canon was simple (Translated from German) - We checked and there is no material or production error. The sound and the hold of the CF card door is within the standards of that model. The mentioned dust is normal due to electrostatic charges.

So the squeaking noise is normal if you shoot film - that is probably for the atmosphere.
Well they offered to replace the components for a nice charge which I will not comment.

Despite the really nice image quality - I would not buy the 5d mk II again. I am really surprised about the way Canon handles quality issues with their customers. They should just withdraw any claims on sealing, so no one would be disappointed.

The CF door issue is not new to canon at all. There are numerous descriptions how to fix it, for example: http://gletscherbruch.de/foto/deckel/deckel.html (http://gletscherbruch.de/foto/deckel/deckel.html). And for serious movies you probably use an external mic.

I have never managed to get any dust to my rear LCD, including my 300D that is still alive and in use. There are quite a lot of things that annoy me about a 5D2. But since there is no alternative, as other vendors have a limited selection of lenses, mine will stay until it retires in a few years.

My cameras sometimes get wet - for example my 5D1 that handled one hour in drizzle rain pretty ok after giving enough time to dry with all doors opened.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: WaitingForAnR10 on October 29, 2009, 09:36:30 AM
Quote from: BernardLanguillier
From what we hear, conditions during that trip were much milder than what many of us experience on a regular basis in other locations. The key probably lies in the mix of sea wind deposited salt and condensation.

Cheers,
Bernard

Could I throw in another suggestion to the mix.  Maybe it's a combination of high humidity, salt in the air, and *high winds*.  The winds would increase the ability of humid salty air to penetrate any opening in the body.  Perhaps under more benign conditions this penetration wouldn't occur?
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Slough on October 29, 2009, 03:54:56 PM
Quote from: WaitingForAnR10
Could I throw in another suggestion to the mix.  Maybe it's a combination of high humidity, salt in the air, and *high winds*.  The winds would increase the ability of humid salty air to penetrate any opening in the body.  Perhaps under more benign conditions this penetration wouldn't occur?

I don't see what is wrong with Bernard's suggestion. The unusual factor here is a group of people moving from warm heated rooms, to a cool outdoors with plenty of moist salty air. The 5D2 is not well sealed. Salty moist air gets inside, they come indoors, and the air condenses onto the circuits, and bang, the camera fries. It is a consequence of light sealing, which is normally enough to keep out light rain.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: WaitingForAnR10 on October 29, 2009, 06:15:59 PM
Quote from: Slough
I don't see what is wrong with Bernard's suggestion. The unusual factor here is a group of people moving from warm heated rooms, to a cool outdoors with plenty of moist salty air. The 5D2 is not well sealed. Salty moist air gets inside, they come indoors, and the air condenses onto the circuits, and bang, the camera fries. It is a consequence of light sealing, which is normally enough to keep out light rain.

I wasn't suggesting that Bernard's suggestion was wrong, just pointing out that if there were high winds at the time (don't know one way or the other, I wasn't there) that the effect would be even worse than usual.  Highs winds might have created enough extra air pressure to make it easier to penetrate the seals.

It seems that something occurred on this trip that was out of the normal pattern for this camera.  Other people must have gone out in similar humid salt air conditions, but I haven't heard of this many examples going down at once, hence the speculation of what may have been a bit different here.

Just a thought.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: telyt on October 30, 2009, 08:13:16 AM
Quote from: ThomasPoeschmann
1.200 pictures a month
40 pictures each day

I do not call this "amateur".

I've seen amateur Canon-using photographers make far more than 40 pictures per minute.  Mash the shutter switch and edit later.  40 per day is not heavy use.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Slough on October 30, 2009, 02:21:24 PM
Quote from: WaitingForAnR10
It seems that something occurred on this trip that was out of the normal pattern for this camera.  Other people must have gone out in similar humid salt air conditions, but I haven't heard of this many examples going down at once, hence the speculation of what may have been a bit different here.

Yes, and in my opinion what is different is going suddenly from a warm room, to the cool outdoors, and vica versa. It is that sudden transition that may well be key.  Normally the transition would be more gradual: photographer shoots, packs camera in case, places camera in cool car, drives home, with car heating up, camera warms gradually with no condensation, takes warmed up camera into house. It is the fact that here a group of people are in a heated room on a cruise ship in the middle of a cold place surrounded by salty humid air.

As to whether or not wind is an issue, I have no idea. My guess is no, but that is no more than a guess, and I could well be wrong.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: thecyclists on November 04, 2009, 08:33:00 AM
I'm one of those unlucky owners of a 5DmkII. It failed after 4 weeks. As I have written before, until the day it failed it has been used in warm nice weather only.

I contacted specialists in production of printed circuit boards (PCB) and showed them the pictures of the damage. He told me that this damage has nothing to do with water damages. It must have been something else that has damaged the PCB and that this "something" must has been present when the camera was produced, unless it has been opened later.

I wrote a letter to Canon in Norway with this claims. In the letter I ask how they can tell that this is is a "severe moisture and water damage". After waiting several weeks for the answer, I got a short email without any answers at all. They do not want to answer my questions!

I just wonder why they do not want to answer my questions...
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: NigelC on November 04, 2009, 08:50:52 AM
Quote from: thecyclists
I'm one of those unlucky owners of a 5DmkII. It failed after 4 weeks. As I have written before, until the day it failed it has been used in warm nice weather only.

I contacted specialists in production of printed circuit boards (PCB) and showed them the pictures of the damage. He told me that this damage has nothing to do with water damages. It must have been something else that has damaged the PCB and that this "something" must has been present when the camera was produced, unless it has been opened later.

I wrote a letter to Canon in Norway with this claims. In the letter I ask how they can tell that this is is a "severe moisture and water damage". After waiting several weeks for the answer, I got a short email without any answers at all. They do not want to answer my questions!

I just wonder why they do not want to answer my questions...

So essentially, what this whole "5D2 Antartica" episode could amount to is a batch manufacuring fault? An impurity in the solder for example?
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Slough on November 04, 2009, 09:13:34 AM
Quote from: thecyclists
I'm one of those unlucky owners of a 5DmkII. It failed after 4 weeks. As I have written before, until the day it failed it has been used in warm nice weather only.

I contacted specialists in production of printed circuit boards (PCB) and showed them the pictures of the damage. He told me that this damage has nothing to do with water damages. It must have been something else that has damaged the PCB and that this "something" must has been present when the camera was produced, unless it has been opened later.

I wrote a letter to Canon in Norway with this claims. In the letter I ask how they can tell that this is is a "severe moisture and water damage". After waiting several weeks for the answer, I got a short email without any answers at all. They do not want to answer my questions!

I just wonder why they do not want to answer my questions...

Are you sure it is not water + salt damage?

Otherwise it sounds as if you have grounds for legal action. Could be costly if you fail though.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: eronald on November 04, 2009, 09:17:10 AM
Quote from: NigelC
So essentially, what this whole "5D2 Antartica" episode could amount to is a batch manufacuring fault? An impurity in the solder for example?

The images I saw seem to indicate faulty fabrication. I'm no authority, however.
In some case it may be simpler to write the issue off to experience, or maybe get a cheap no-fault replacement from CPS.

Edmund
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: thecyclists on November 04, 2009, 09:23:05 AM
Quote from: Slough
Are you sure it is not water + salt damage?

Otherwise it sounds as if you have grounds for legal action. Could be costly if you fail though.

I cannot tell for sure, but if it is salt, it must have been there when I bought the camera. I have not been near anything that is salt at all. The camera has not been in contact with water. The closest the camera has been to water is the two hours before it failed - when it was stored inside a plastic bag during rain. The rain had stopped long before I took the camera out of the bag. And both the camera and the inside of the plastic bag looked dry at that time.

The expert I talked with say that if the damaged has been caused by water in combination with electrical flow you would have seen "bridges" between to contacts. A "bridge" caused by electrical current would be wide close to the contact points and narrow in the middle of the contact point. He could not see any evidence of such "bridges" on the pictures.

He also told me that he have seen a lot of damaged like this before - damages caused by chemicals.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Patricia Sheley on November 04, 2009, 09:25:36 AM
Quote from: eronald
The images I saw seem to indicate faulty fabrication. I'm no authority, however.
In some case it may be simpler to write the issue off to experience, or maybe get a cheap no-fault replacement from CPS.

Edmund
The circuit board part of this equation is shown here
    http://petetek.blogspot.com/2009/07/canon-...ii-exposed.html (http://petetek.blogspot.com/2009/07/canon-5d-mark-ii-exposed.html)  
 by someone who took apart and repaired one of the failed cameras...I had bookmarked it as I frequently work in fog, mist and marshy areas and started to really worry about my copy...no problems yet but... I tend to use the loose towel method and transport in backpack. When I carry on tripod I wrap loosely with a breathable jacket...
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: mrenters on November 04, 2009, 09:32:14 AM
Quote from: NigelC
So essentially, what this whole "5D2 Antartica" episode could amount to is a batch manufacuring fault? An impurity in the solder for example?

It certainly is possible.  The Antarctica trip was in January and all 5D2 cameras that were on the trip must have been from early batches as the camera hadn't been out that long.  Our two cameras that failed had serial numbers only 2 apart and another one was around 5000 off of our numbers as I recall.

I find it curious that only 5D2 cameras had this problem on the Antarctica trip - no other Canons and no cameras from any other manufacturers.

What bothers me more than the fact that the cameras failed was how Canon dealt (or didn't) with the situation. My camera was in the shop twice for a total of 3 months out of the 9 that I owned it and they still didn't fix it properly.  Even getting them to respond to phone calls or emails was impossible. It isn't the type of customer support I want to encourage with future purchases.

Martin
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Patricia Sheley on November 04, 2009, 09:53:45 AM
Quote from: eronald
The images I saw seem to indicate faulty fabrication. I'm no authority, however.
In some case it may be simpler to write the issue off to experience, or maybe get a cheap no-fault replacement from CPS.

Edmund



Here is the main culprit, it was the board on the bottom of the body. There was corrosion on 3 of the ribbon connector areas and 2 of the surface mount ICs. I carefully cleaned them off and sprayed the entire board down with a 0 residue PCB contact cleaner. The camera has been flawless ever since, but only time will tell, and with water damage you never know for sure, corrosion can kill very slowly and create odd issues with systems, in this case the buttons acted irrational and certain shooting modes would do different things.

The above quote is from the tech article linked above...It includes pictures of the offending areas...sure would seem to support manuf flaw...
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: thecyclists on November 04, 2009, 10:48:44 AM
Quote from: psheleyimages
The circuit board part of this equation is shown here
    http://petetek.blogspot.com/2009/07/canon-...ii-exposed.html (http://petetek.blogspot.com/2009/07/canon-5d-mark-ii-exposed.html)  
 by someone who took apart and repaired one of the failed cameras...I had bookmarked it as I frequently work in fog, mist and marshy areas and started to really worry about my copy...no problems yet but... I tend to use the loose towel method and transport in backpack. When I carry on tripod I wrap loosely with a breathable jacket...

Interesting, he say
Quote
Here is the main culprit, it was the board on the bottom of the body. There was corrosion on 3 of the ribbon connector areas and 2 of the surface mount ICs

It's the same place where the damages are on my body. But my body has never been in water...
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Patricia Sheley on November 04, 2009, 11:20:10 AM
Quote from: thecyclists
Interesting, he say


It's the same place where the damages are on my body. But my body has never been in water...

Has anyone compiled a list of the serial #'s of the failed units?
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: thecyclists on November 04, 2009, 11:41:33 AM
Quote from: psheleyimages
Has anyone compiled a list of the serial #'s of the failed units?

I can do that - if people are willing to share the serial numbers with me. Just send me a personal message with the number and perhaps a short story about the failure.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: uncommondepth on November 04, 2009, 12:13:54 PM
Quote from: thecyclists
I can do that - if people are willing to share the serial numbers with me. Just send me a personal message with the number and perhaps a short story about the failure.

Here's my story again: I had my camera fail in late August of this year (bought it in February). I was using it in rainy conditions with a protective cover on it. The camera itself never got wet. If you pressed the shutter the camera would just fire repeatedly until you took the battery out. All other controls were inoperable. I immediately went and found this thread on the forum, so knew what was going on. I put the camera in front of a heater to dry it out as quickly as possible. I haven't had any issues since, but I also haven't used it heavily, or been in a humid environment again. I'm too scared to take it out if it's raining or snowing.  I have not sent it for repairs yet as I need to get a replacement first.

I find it weird that so many people are trying to defend the camera failure since I don't hear about other models or other brands with the same or similar problems. It's one make and model having this problem. To me that means there's a flaw. I've used other Canon cameras under the same conditions (and worse) and I know hundreds (probably thousands) of other photographers are using their Canon's under worse conditions without any issues. Some cameras in this series are flawed. Canon needs to do a recall, or replace them, or something. Or we need to get together for action if Canon won't take action on their own.

Cheers,
Roberta
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: thecyclists on November 19, 2009, 07:32:39 AM
My camera has been inspected by a neutral person that has concluded that water has penetrated into the camera through screw-holes and the area close to the eye for the camera strap.

Based on this, my question is - if this camera is suppose to have improved weather sealing, how can water penetrate this areas? It sound's like a very weak point.

As I have written before - my 30D has been out more than once in rain without any failure or damages at all. And the 30D does not have any sealing at all.

In my opinion, the weather sealing on the 5D mkII is not worth a cent.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: Hokey on November 22, 2009, 10:17:44 PM
This is perhaps slightly OT, but I had my 5DII in Brunei for 3 months, and had NOTHING but grief.

It never got rained on, or even damp, but the persistent high humidity did damage anyway.  After a month there it stopped working and had to go back to Canon... where they replaced pretty much everything except the shutter (including the motherboard and so on)... then just before I came back it stopped working AGAIN, and they had to do the same level of repairs... everything except the shutter.

I was not even there as a photog, the camera spent 99% of the time in a locked Pelican in my 5-star hotel suite.

I had it sent straight back to me in Perth, and it had been fine ever since.

Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: thecyclists on November 23, 2009, 06:37:28 AM
Quote from: Hokey
This is perhaps slightly OT, but I had my 5DII in Brunei for 3 months, and had NOTHING but grief.

It never got rained on, or even damp, but the persistent high humidity did damage anyway.  After a month there it stopped working and had to go back to Canon... where they replaced pretty much everything except the shutter (including the motherboard and so on)... then just before I came back it stopped working AGAIN, and they had to do the same level of repairs... everything except the shutter.

I was not even there as a photog, the camera spent 99% of the time in a locked Pelican in my 5-star hotel suite.

I had it sent straight back to me in Perth, and it had been fine ever since.

Did Canon say anyhting about what caused the failure?
Did you have to pay for the repair?
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: uncommondepth on February 24, 2010, 05:16:55 PM
Has anything new been happening? Has anyone gathered information on serial numbers or anything else? I finally sent my camera back for repairs. Just got it back yesterday - they couldn't find any issues so nothing was done. Anyone want to buy a Canon 5D MKII? I think it's time for me to look into a Nikon!
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: thecyclists on April 30, 2010, 03:07:23 AM
Quote from: uncommondepth
Has anything new been happening? Has anyone gathered information on serial numbers or anything else? I finally sent my camera back for repairs. Just got it back yesterday - they couldn't find any issues so nothing was done. Anyone want to buy a Canon 5D MKII? I think it's time for me to look into a Nikon!

My camera has been examined by a neutral company, which concluded that small amount of water has penetrated the camera body through the eyelet for the camera strap on the right side. Canon has refused to comment this and answer my initial question about how the water came into the camera body.

I later got my hand on a drawing that show where the weather sealing is, I found out that there is (according to the drawing made by Canon) no weather sealing around the eyelet. Through contacts I told Canon about this and I also told them that I will never give up this "fight". Within one week I got the message I wanted - they replaced the body.

At that day the camera failed I put the camera in a plastic bag to protected it against the rain I knew would come. To avoid having the camera laying in the bottom of the bag (in case water should get into the bag) the camera strap was partly out of the plastic bag, so that I could hold the camera lifted above the bottom of the plastic bag. The water has followed the camera strap an got inside the bag and into the camera body.

I don't know what kind of weather sealing I should see around the eyelet, but the pictures taken by the neutral company does not show anything that look like a sealing.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: stever on May 01, 2010, 11:32:44 AM
that's quite interesting

i've been in fairly high humidity on dive trips to Indonesia and the Phillipines with no issues, but have taken care to avoid condensation

going to the arctic in July and wonder if a little silicone around the base of the strap lugs would be in order?
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: stever on May 01, 2010, 01:15:00 PM
left or right lug?
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: thecyclists on May 02, 2010, 01:36:03 AM
Quote from: stever
left or right lug?

I assume that lug is the same as we call eyelet? It's the right one where the water came into the camera body.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: stever on May 02, 2010, 01:43:02 PM
makes sense if there is no internal seal - Canon has designed a nice pocket to collect moisture around the base of the left lug/eyelet, the left side does not look nearly so vulnerable

i'll have to have a think about putting silicone around the base - the downside is that if you don't do a good job or it doesn't stick for whatever reason, then moisture can still enter and then be trapped
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: thecyclists on May 03, 2010, 09:30:39 AM
Quote from: stever
makes sense if there is no internal seal - Canon has designed a nice pocket to collect moisture around the base of the left lug/eyelet, the left side does not look nearly so vulnerable

i'll have to have a think about putting silicone around the base - the downside is that if you don't do a good job or it doesn't stick for whatever reason, then moisture can still enter and then be trapped

A friend of my also suggested silicone around the lug/eyelet. In my opinion it should not be necessary if they wanted this camera to be the #1 camera for landscape photographer (they do not take pictures in nice weather only). In their advertising for this camera, they told us how much they have improved the weather sealing.

My 30D, which does not have any weather sealing at all, has been used in rain several times without any problems. It's years since the first time it was used in bad weather. Still working fine after 73000 shots.
Title: canon 5d mk11 in Antarctica
Post by: benInMA on May 03, 2010, 11:30:28 AM
I hadn't checked in a long time.. I can't believe this is still going on.

I got my 5D Mk I the first month they came out.. it has been rained on MANY times and has never missed a blink.  It's been exposed to sea spray, I've hiked through ridiculous humidity in Hawaii with it, etc..

I just got back from a week in California with it.. it got wet several times.  I don't even really think about it.. I let it get a little wet and have zero worries.

Hopefully the 5D Mk III I will eventually buy will be more like the Mk I then the Mk II.