Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: maxgruzen on February 03, 2009, 06:45:33 pm
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Reading Michael's latest essay on high definition camera's brings to mind how sad I feel at the demise of the 5d Mk 1. I have no need for 20+ megs. My work is on the net and my prints rarely exceed 16x24. I don't want or need the hassle of processing huge files and the need to buy a new computer and much, much more storage. I love my large photosites. What I do need though is a full frame 12-15 mg Canon, because I love my 85 f 1.2, and my 24 f 1.4. Unfortunately Canon no longer makes such a camera. How long will I be able to use my 5D? Insanity!
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Reading Michael's latest essay on high definition camera's brings to mind how sad I feel at the demise of the 5d Mk 1. I have no need for 20+ megs. My work is on the net and my prints rarely exceed 16x24. I don't want or need the hassle of processing huge files and the need to buy a new computer and much, much more storage. I love my large photosites. What I do need though is a full frame 12-15 mg Canon, because I love my 85 f 1.2, and my 24 f 1.4. Unfortunately Canon no longer makes such a camera. How long will I be able to use my 5D? Insanity!
Well, since a 16x24 print equals about a 35MP shot at 300ppi, I'd say you probably could use the resolution. The 5Dii is lower noise, higher resolution, and higher in DR than the 5D. What's not to like?
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How long will I be able to use my 5D? Insanity!
You can perhaps buy a few second hand 5Ds and keep using them for the next 20 years or so... you might run into problems with 5D raw files not being supported anymore in 10 years if you decide to upgrade your computer to Windows 9 and ACR12, but you'll still be able to shoot jpg.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Unfortunately Canon no longer makes such a camera. How long will I be able to use my 5D? Insanity!
Totally agree. Maybe the 1D Mark IV will be 12 megapixel full frame....
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You can perhaps buy a few second hand 5Ds and keep using them for the next 20 years or so... you might run into problems with 5D raw files not being supported anymore in 10 years if you decide to upgrade your computer to Windows 9 and ACR12, but you'll still be able to shoot jpg.
Cheers,
Bernard
What!! Do you think there's a likelihood that older versions of Photoshop or DPP will no longer be compatible with new operating system? I never considered that. Is it no longer possible to install Photoshop 6 or 7 on a Vista machine? Is it likely that at some point Adobe will start dropping support for certain RAW formats? If they do, there'll certainly be a market niche to fill for some enterprising person. RAW files are forever, aren't they?
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What!! Do you think there's a likelihood that older versions of Photoshop or DPP will no longer be compatible with new operating system? I never considered that. Is it no longer possible to install Photoshop 6 or 7 on a Vista machine?
I don't know if it is the case, but yes, it is totally possible.
The latest version of OSX will for instance not support anymore older PowerPC applications,...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Could you not convert your CR2 files to DNG (and embed the CR2s)?
Presumably, Adobe will support its own format for a few years yet!
Or, you could also stockpile an older computer and some long-forgotten software alongside your pile of ancient 5Ds.
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Or, you could also stockpile an older computer and some long-forgotten software alongside your pile of ancient 5Ds.
But where would he get vacuum tubes for his antique computer when they burn out?
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But where would he get vacuum tubes for his antique computer when they burn out?
Hey, watch it buddy. Those of us who use old tube amps with our electric guitars will do just about anything for a nice set of original Mullards as it is. We don't need any additional competition...
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you can convert your RAW into DNG and it will normally work for the next 20 years
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Unfortunately Canon no longer makes such a camera. How long will I be able to use my 5D? Insanity!
Maxguzen, I feel your pain. And I want to help. If you'll purchase a 5DII and ship it to me prepaid I'll help you by sending my 5D to you. All I ask is that you pay the return freight.
Deal?
Like you, I have as much need for a 5DII as I do for a P65, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to have it. Not enough to buy one, but enough that if my camera failed the pain would be somewhat assuaged by the knowledge I could now justify the 5DII. Live view is enticement enough.
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Maxguzen, I feel your pain. And I want to help. If you'll purchase a 5DII and ship it to me prepaid I'll help you by sending my 5D to you. All I ask is that you pay the return freight.
Deal?
Like you, I have as much need for a 5DII as I do for a P65, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to have it. Not enough to buy one, but enough that if my camera failed the pain would be somewhat assuaged by the knowledge I could now justify the 5DII. Live view is enticement enough.
I too would like live view and some of the other goodies. The point of this post is that I would like them in a 12-15 meg full frame package which Canon no longer makes.
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I too would like live view and some of the other goodies. The point of this post is that I would like them in a 12-15 meg full frame package which Canon no longer makes.
So maybe the time is right for a "full-frame Rebel".......the Rebel XFF..........hmmmm......... I'd probably buy one.........
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sRAW1 on the 5D2 is 10 megapixels......
Gordon
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sRAW1 on the 5D2 is 10 megapixels......
Gordon
That's a thought Gordon, although if I had the mk II I can't imagine myself shooting at anything other then full res. It's just that I have been waiting as I moved up in cameras over the past few years to finally get to a place where I didn't feel that I needed to upgrade. 12 Megs did it for me. I really don't need anymore. I enjoy the new toys I have with my 40d but prefer full frame with my lens selection. When my 5d die's I'm sure I"ll get a MkII or 3 or whatever. It will mean $3,000 for a new MBP plus the camera though. I had my Leica's for 30 years and never needed to upgrade, but that's another story. There's never going to be a "keeper" in 21st century photography.
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That's a thought Gordon, although if I had the mk II I can't imagine myself shooting at anything other then full res. It's just that I have been waiting as I moved up in cameras over the past few years to finally get to a place where I didn't feel that I needed to upgrade. 12 Megs did it for me. I really don't need anymore. I enjoy the new toys I have with my 40d but prefer full frame with my lens selection. When my 5d die's I'm sure I"ll get a MkII or 3 or whatever. It will mean $3,000 for a new MBP plus the camera though. I had my Leica's for 30 years and never needed to upgrade, but that's another story. There's never going to be a "keeper" in 21st century photography.
Well, let's seen what you'd have to lose by moving to the 5D MkII if your 5D should fail.
DxO Mark is actually fairly suitable for this comparison, since you can normalise to a print size of 8x12 inches.
Go to the 5D vs 5D MkII comparison (http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Image-Quality-Database/Compare-cameras/(appareil1)/176|0/(appareil2)/305|0/(onglet)/0/(brand)/Canon/(brand2)/Canon), select Print in each relevant point of comparison for you, and see how it works.
From what I can tell, and the reports I've read online, you don't stand to lose anything by using a 5D MkII and printing to the same sizes that you use your 5D MkI for.
In other words, it appears to be a win-win situation.
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Well, let's seen what you'd have to lose by moving to the 5D MkII if your 5D should fail.
DxO Mark is actually fairly suitable for this comparison, since you can normalise to a print size of 8x12 inches.
Go to the 5D vs 5D MkII comparison (http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/Image-Quality-Database/Compare-cameras/(appareil1)/176|0/(appareil2)/305|0/(onglet)/0/(brand)/Canon/(brand2)/Canon), select Print in each relevant point of comparison for you, and see how it works.
From what I can tell, and the reports I've read online, you don't stand to lose anything by using a 5D MkII and printing to the same sizes that you use your 5D MkI for.
In other words, it appears to be a win-win situation.
I'm happy with were I'm at, but it's not sustainable. I'm continuously forced to give more to asquire something I don't want. In this case a 5dII plus a new MBP. 6'000 dollars. Who exatley is this a win-win situation for. It's great for Michael , he gets alot of new stuff to keep writing about. It kind of sucks for me.
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It's kind of sad that new stuff sometimes makes us question existing gear beyond where it makes sense to do so.
If the 5D does it for you, keep shooting and enjoying it. It has not suddenly become a poor camera at all. It is capable of awesome results. In a year or so, 2nd hand ones will be available, and the price of new may be down too.
I bought my 20D in 2005. I still use it. great camera for my purposes. As my technique and preferred subject matter has have evolved, so have some of my needs. I wanted FF, so I recently grabbed an open box 5D. It offers the possibility of great results at a great price. that's what matters to me.
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although if I had the mk II I can't imagine myself shooting at anything other then full res.
I can. I end up shooting a lot of studio head shots (mug shots) for media guides, press releases, etc. Nobody on the planet needs a 21-megapixel, 60+ Megabyte head shot for newspaper reproduction. A high-quality JPEG file made from that would be too large to email on our campus system. Sheesh.
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I'm happy with were I'm at, but it's not sustainable. I'm continuously forced to give more to asquire something I don't want. In this case a 5dII plus a new MBP. 6'000 dollars. Who exatley is this a win-win situation for. It's great for Michael , he gets alot of new stuff to keep writing about. It kind of sucks for me.
What's an MBP?
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What's an MBP?
HAH! i had the same question!! Magically bullet proof?
On a more realistic note, I find the idea of an old digital camera not being a keeper a problem. 20 years ago there were all sorts of new cameras coming out, with new gadgets and doohickeys. Back then techno freaks always wanted the new thing too, the difference I think is more social. Now our techno freaks are mainstream, and entering the amateur / semi pro market with lots of money. These are the Engineers that thrive on developing new computer technologies and having the new whatever on their phone.
I think the keepers depend on what you need and what you want. I had an EA1 for ages, i mean who didn't have a camera for ages before digital? But IMHO, the bottom line is that now that quality is plateauing it will become a gadget race and not so much a quality race. Then there will be more keepers. Maybe starting with the 5D?
just my $0.2
KT
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What's an MBP?
A computer? Apple MacBook Pro
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A computer? Apple MacBook Pro
Ah, that must be it. Thanks for translating for those of us who don't hang out on Mac forums.
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Ah, that must be it. Thanks for translating for those of us who don't hang out on Mac forums.
I didn't know too, but we always have the wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBP)
Have fun
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I didn't know too, but we always have the wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBP)
Have fun
Yah, Sorry I sometimes forget that there are still people who don't use Mac's. My current Apple laptop is not up to the task of processing 5DII files efficiently, and I would need to buy a new one. I think part of what I'm about here is a rebellion at the need of today technology to continuously keep upgrading. It just never seems to stop. When I think about it though, I guess it wasn't that different when I was shooting film ....Leica to Hasselblad to Linhof to Sinar.....I guess it's just the nature of our profession.
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It's kind of sad that new stuff sometimes makes us question existing gear beyond where it makes sense to do so.
If the 5D does it for you, keep shooting and enjoying it. It has not suddenly become a poor camera at all. It is capable of awesome results. In a year or so, 2nd hand ones will be available, and the price of new may be down too.
I bought my 20D in 2005. I still use it. great camera for my purposes. As my technique and preferred subject matter has have evolved, so have some of my needs. I wanted FF, so I recently grabbed an open box 5D. It offers the possibility of great results at a great price. that's what matters to me.
One point that has been overlooked in this thread is the durability of the 5D. The shutter is good for only 100,000 actuations. I've used my 5D for 3 1/2 years. I'm pretty close to the 100,000 mark. The mirror has already fallen off and been repaired. The next thing to go will likely be the shutter.
Can anyone tell me if the mirror housing assembly, which was replaced, includes the shutter? I mean, they didn't just stick the mirror back on. They replaced a whole assembly.
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Can anyone tell me if the mirror housing assembly, which was replaced, includes the shutter? I mean, they didn't just stick the mirror back on. They replaced a whole assembly.
From what I can tell, these are completely separate.
This post at photography-on-the-net (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=7248425&postcount=36) seems to confirm it.
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From what I can tell, these are completely separate.
This post at photography-on-the-net (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=7248425&postcount=36) seems to confirm it.
I'm not sure that post completely confirms it, but assuming it's correct, I would not like to sell my 5D to some stranger without informing him/her of the situation, which means I could not expect a good price, which means I might as well give it away..... when I get a 5D2 .
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I'm not sure that post completely confirms it, but assuming it's correct, I would not like to sell my 5D to some stranger without informing him/her of the situation, which means I could not expect a good price, which means I might as well give it away..... when I get a 5D2 .
Ray,
I'll be happy to take the 5D off your hands, as a backup for my own 5D. I'll even split the shipping with you!
Eric
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how generous!! I'll double that offer and pay FULL shipping cost AND a cup of coffee at somewhere other than Starbucks!
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Ray,
I'll be happy to take the 5D off your hands, as a backup for my own 5D. I'll even split the shipping with you!
Eric
No, Eric. I would expect you to pay for the shipping in full . But I would not contemplate giving it away untill I get a 5D2 (or maybe I'll wait for the 5D3 ).
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No, Eric. I would expect you to pay for the shipping in full . But I would not contemplate giving it away untill I get a 5D2 (or maybe I'll wait for the 5D3 ).
Hey, wait a minute! This is my post and I get 1st dibs on any free 5D's.
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Hey, wait a minute! This is my post and I get 1st dibs on any free 5D's.
Well, Max, i guess we'll just have to settle this like civilized gentlemen -- with our fists.
Maybe I should let you have the first one, and I'll take any others.
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Reading Michael's latest essay on high definition camera's brings to mind how sad I feel at the demise of the 5d Mk 1. I have no need for 20+ megs. My work is on the net and my prints rarely exceed 16x24. I don't want or need the hassle of processing huge files and the need to buy a new computer and much, much more storage. I love my large photosites. What I do need though is a full frame 12-15 mg Canon, because I love my 85 f 1.2, and my 24 f 1.4. Unfortunately Canon no longer makes such a camera. How long will I be able to use my 5D? Insanity!
I find the 5DMK2 a pretty big step up from my 5D. I suspect if you try a 5DMK2 your 5D will be up for sale. It is faster in all respects and the IQ is great. Also you can actually use the LCD to judge focus and view images in daylight. When you combine the new LCD with LiveView and the 10x magnification you have a landscape shooter dream camera. The new LCD and 10X magnification also helps to judge the critical sharpness of images, especially if you use those lenses wide open. And if the lenses are not focusing precisely you can use MA to correct them.
Also, I don't know why you would need to get a new computer. I am using the same system I used with my 5D and it works just fine. One caveat is that I do not use Macs and do not serious photo work on a laptop because of screen size and calibration issues.
jerry
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I was very enamored with my 5D, too, when I had it. I think you may be overlooking two obvious solutions, though: Nikon D3 and D700.
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I was very enamored with my 5D, too, when I had it. I think you may be overlooking two obvious solutions, though: Nikon D3 and D700.
Nobody besides Canon has an 85 1.2 or a 24 1.4. Thats why I shoot Canon. If not for that I would
consider a Sony.
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I think this waterproofing issue with the 5D2 needs to be sorted before I put in my order for one. I always knew the 5D2 would be extremely popular as soon as the specs were published and that there would be no chance of getting one before Christmas in Australia unless I were to put in a pre-order immediately.
This has proved to be the case. The first shipments to Australia went to those who pre-ordered, but I'm generally reluctant to be one of those who like to snap up whetever's new. The last time I did that was when I upgraded to a Win XP 64 bit operating system. I wasn't able to calibrate my monitor for the next 6 months due to the lack of a driver for my colorimeter.
There have been two issues so far with the 5D2; black dots and waterproofing. The first appears to have been fixed, but the second is a major concern, according to Michael's Antartic report. I'd like to see this problem addressed before I put in my order for a 5D2. They are now readily available in Australia, but I'm not tempted.
In the meantime I can make do with the Canon 50D for focal lengths from 26mm to 900mm, and the Nikon D700 for focal lengths from 14 to 24MM.
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I have, on ocassion, used my 1Ds mark III on JPG M1 and M2 even sRaw. Quality is still superb. Honestly for most things ~10MP is more than enough. Most of the time careful technique (instead of a slight inscrease in MP) makes much more of a difference (quality of glass, focus accuracy and lack of camera shake, image post-production) on final image quality.
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I have, on ocassion, used my 1Ds mark III on JPG M1 and M2 even sRaw. Quality is still superb. Honestly for most things ~10MP is more than enough. Most of the time careful technique (instead of a slight inscrease in MP) makes much more of a difference (quality of glass, focus accuracy and lack of camera shake, image post-production) on final image quality.
So instead of taking a good platform like the 5D and making it great like adding a big bright viewfinder like the Sony; good accurate focus points; and better weather proofing they have thrown it in the trash bin, in favor of 24mps and video which a lot of us simply do not want.
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So instead of taking a good platform like the 5D and making it great like adding a big bright viewfinder like the Sony; good accurate focus points; and better weather proofing they have thrown it in the trash bin, in favor of 24mps and video which a lot of us simply do not want.
And, obviously, the users don't want:
- larger viewfinder coverage (even though it's not at pro spec)
- better dynamic range
- better colour depth
- better low-light ISO
- live view
- bigger and better LCD screen
- bigger print size
- AF microadjustment (ok, so it's of limited use, but better than nothing)
- sensor cleaning
- two extra custom modes
- IR remote
- improved battery status and battery info for individual batteries
- permanent ISO display in viewfinder
- CF+ and UDMA cards
- dedicated AF-on button
- creative auto mode
- potentially faster autofocus (allegedly better AF processing)
Some things are just different, like the battery, battery grip, wireless grip, etc.
While not all of these may be interesting to you, personally, I don't see that your claim of "trash" can be warranted. The current (and serious!) concerns regarding water resistance non-withstanding.
If this camera's new features are such big problems for you, just don't buy the camera! Buy the old model, used, in 5-packs, if you want.
But this kind of whining is just silly.
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I don't know if it is the case, but yes, it is totally possible.
The latest version of OSX will for instance not support anymore older PowerPC applications,...
Cheers,
Bernard
Operating systems are one thing. Raw converters are another.
I have no reason to believe that in 10 years anyone will not be able to process 5D raw images. And in fact I believe this to be true in 500 years as well.
Wondering if our old raw images are processable in X years is the least of our worries.
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One point that has been overlooked in this thread is the durability of the 5D. The shutter is good for only 100,000 actuations. I've used my 5D for 3 1/2 years. I'm pretty close to the 100,000 mark. The mirror has already fallen off and been repaired. The next thing to go will likely be the shutter.
Can anyone tell me if the mirror housing assembly, which was replaced, includes the shutter? I mean, they didn't just stick the mirror back on. They replaced a whole assembly.
Replacement shutter is no big deal. Around $200.
Replacement of the mirror is not an auto-replacement of the shutter.
So for $200 you're good to go for another 100,000 actuations.
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And, obviously, the users don't want:
- larger viewfinder coverage (even though it's not at pro spec)
- better dynamic range
- better colour depth
- better low-light ISO
- live view
- bigger and better LCD screen
- bigger print size
- AF microadjustment (ok, so it's of limited use, but better than nothing)
- sensor cleaning
- two extra custom modes
- IR remote
- improved battery status and battery info for individual batteries
- permanent ISO display in viewfinder
- CF+ and UDMA cards
- dedicated AF-on button
- creative auto mode
- potentially faster autofocus (allegedly better AF processing)
Some things are just different, like the battery, battery grip, wireless grip, etc.
While not all of these may be interesting to you, personally, I don't see that your claim of "trash" can be warranted. The current (and serious!) concerns regarding water resistance non-withstanding.
If this camera's new features are such big problems for you, just don't buy the camera! Buy the old model, used, in 5-packs, if you want.
But this kind of whining is just silly.
So Jani, are you married to your 5D mark II? Just curious, as you obviously were upset by someone's "whining". You took it so, so personal.
And what good are all those nice "features" you listed if most are not required?
At the end of the day, the same crud AF mechanism & logic was used, and nearly the same DR, and the frame-rate is just a nit faster. Sure, it provides 1-2 stops less noise and that is great, but I'm going to skip this one for the Mark III or IV, in the hope that the replacement will provide 1D type AF (remember the EOS-3 film body), 45 FP's and at least 1-2 stops wider DR. All this hoping aside, the Mark II is just a tad better then the Mark I with a lot of "nice to have" features, but only a few "gotta haves". Big deal!
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The latest version of OSX will for instance not support anymore older PowerPC applications,...
That's not accurate.
The forthcoming Snow leopard , OS X 10.6, will not run on PPC Macs. But just as with current Intel Macs, it will run older apps that were designed for PPC. For example, MS Office 2004 is PPC only, but will run on Intel machines.
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So Jani, are you married to your 5D mark II?
No, I don't even own one.
Just curious, as you obviously were upset by someone's "whining". You took it so, so personal.
And you need to learn to see things in other than black-or-white.