Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: BernardLanguillier on January 13, 2009, 07:23:24 pm
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Dear all,
I know that the question may sound strange coming from a tripod obsessed person like me, but I have started to look at doing HDR from handheld shots.
I am looking for the best possible software option to handle these cases. Here is what I tried myself and the results. I shot 3 images with the D3x in 14 bits raw mode, meaning at a speed of about 2 images per second using a -1, 0, +1 auto bracketing pattern. The shutter speed was around 1/125 sec average at f8. Because of the rather slow shooting speed, there was not huge, but significant differences in the framing of the 3 shots.
- The first software I tried was Photomatix, but it just wasn't able to align the images correctly. -> I am not very knowledgeable on Photomatix, is there a way to improve on the default alignement?
- CS4 auto align function also didn't do such a good job, about in the same league as Photomatix, meaning barely suitable for 10x15cm critical prints.
- PTgui did a much better job than the other 2, and its Fusion based algo for pano did also produce a much more pleasing result much faster than Photomatix.
Here is the resulting image processed with PTgui:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3351/3193519631_8b5cd318fb_o.jpg)
Based on this, my current feeling is that PTgui is by far the best option for handheld HDR work, but this is a result I have never seen reported by anybody else until now.
What are you ladies and gentlemen doing?
Thank you in advance for your kind feedback.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Did the alignment need interpolation? or was just X-Y shifted by an integer amount of pixels?
Anyway, don't you think -1,0+1 is no great improvement for the effort?
PS: I am more surprised that you even tried Photomatix.
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What's wrong with Photomatix? How about trying one normal raw capture and processing it under and over by 2-3 stops? Jim
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Bernard, I've been consistently disappointed with Photomatix's results from my hand-held HDR tests.
Close, but no cigar. Also, I find Photomatix to be quite noisy, unpredictably so.
I'll try your method.
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Not an answer but I think they do this stuff over at Digital Outback Photo. You might consider, if you haven't already, asking in their forums.
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Did the alignment need interpolation? or was just X-Y shifted by an integer amount of pixels?
Anyway, don't you think -1,0+1 is no great improvement for the effort?
PS: I am more surprised that you even tried Photomatix.
Yes, it was handheld, so it was not a simple X-Y adjustment, the framing was different including angle and actual shooting position.
The D3x was mostly able to capture the DR of the scene, so in this case -1, 0, +1 did bring enough value.
I am really an HDR beginner, so I just tried the Photomatix license I had bought a year ago. I will obviously not waste too much time with it anymore when serious alignement needs to be done.
What do you use?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Not an answer but I think they do this stuff over at Digital Outback Photo. You might consider, if you haven't already, asking in their forums.
Thanks for the pointer.
Cheers,
Bernard
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What's wrong with Photomatix? How about trying one normal raw capture and processing it under and over by 2-3 stops? Jim
What was wrong with this test is that the software was unable to align the images...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi Bernard: I don't know if this would be of any use to you or not, but it show up on Jeff Revell's blog site yesterday:
http://www.revellphotography.com/blog/?p=1985 (http://www.revellphotography.com/blog/?p=1985)
The site for the company is: http://www.ariea.com/products/hdrmax/ (http://www.ariea.com/products/hdrmax/)
Mike.
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Hi Bernard: I don't know if this would be of any use to you or not, but it show up on Jeff Revell's blog site yesterday:
http://www.revellphotography.com/blog/?p=1985 (http://www.revellphotography.com/blog/?p=1985)
Thanks Mike, I'll give it a try.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard, I've been consistently disappointed with Photomatix's results from my hand-held HDR tests.
Close, but no cigar. Also, I find Photomatix to be quite noisy, unpredictably so.
I'll try your method.
Peter,
Thanks for your feedback.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I've been finding that CS3/CS4 alignment is consistently better than photomatix's. I remember that this used to be what the digital outback people recommended a while back (when CS3 was released, I think) but it might well have changed. I usually have to clean up some details with the clone tool if I intend to print big but overall, it's generally not too bad.
I'll give ptgui a try.
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I've been finding that CS3/CS4 alignment is consistently better than photomatix's. I remember that this used to be what the digital outback people recommended a while back (when CS3 was released, I think) but it might well have changed. I usually have to clean up some details with the clone tool if I intend to print big but overall, it's generally not too bad.
Thanks for the feedback.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Have been looking for a solution to the exact same problem, following is what I thought worked best:
http://www.autopano.net/ (http://www.autopano.net/)
Will do automatic position and perspective alignment, especially for handheld, non-optimal situations. Doesn't necessarily have to be panorama shots, will also do stacking. See the tutorial pages. (I'm not in any way related to this company).
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Thanks Mike, I'll give it a try.
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard,
Let us know how it works. From a few comments I read a while ago, the application was buggy but the results were similar to the competing products like Photomatix.
Edit: some positive comments here (http://stuartforsyth.com/2008/12/29/hdr-max-new-hdr-software/).
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Bernard,
What version of Photomatix have you been using? The latest version, 3.1, is a definite improvement over previous versions.
Alignment works pretty well for me handheld unless you're doing architecture with a lot of angles. That's when you have to resort to tools like you've mentioned.
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Bernard -
Are you on a Mac? If so, try: http://pangeasoft.net/pano/bracketeer/index.html (http://pangeasoft.net/pano/bracketeer/index.html). It's specifically designed for hand held HDR's. I've fooled with it a bit and it seems to work well enough to warrant further exploration.
Even works with RAW files in 10.5.
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I've heard it said that Hydra (http://www.creaceed.com/hydra/) is particularly good at this kind of thing (their blurb certainly claims that it is), but I confess I've not tried it myself. It's both standalone and an Aperture plug-in, if that's of interest.
Jeremy
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Bernard,
What version of Photomatix have you been using? The latest version, 3.1, is a definite improvement over previous versions.
Alignment works pretty well for me handheld unless you're doing architecture with a lot of angles. That's when you have to resort to tools like you've mentioned.
Thanks. It was with 3.1.
As I mentioned, I have only used the default alignement capability without any tweaking, is there a way to improve on that?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard -
Are you on a Mac? If so, try: http://pangeasoft.net/pano/bracketeer/index.html (http://pangeasoft.net/pano/bracketeer/index.html). It's specifically designed for hand held HDR's. I've fooled with it a bit and it seems to work well enough to warrant further exploration.
Even works with RAW files in 10.5.
Hi,
Yes I am on Mac, thanks for the pointer, I'll give it a try.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I've heard it said that Hydra (http://www.creaceed.com/hydra/) is particularly good at this kind of thing (their blurb certainly claims that it is), but I confess I've not tried it myself. It's both standalone and an Aperture plug-in, if that's of interest.
Thanks for the pointer, will give it a try.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I've heard it said that Hydra (http://www.creaceed.com/hydra/) is particularly good at this kind of thing (their blurb certainly claims that it is), but I confess I've not tried it myself. It's both standalone and an Aperture plug-in, if that's of interest.
Jeremy
Just did a quick test based on my sample images. Hydra is for sure doing a better job than Photomatix and CS4 at alignement, but it is still isn't as accurate as a well optimized PTgui alignement. Other images might deliver different results though.
Colorwise also, I see some artifacts with Hydra that are not there with PTgui, but Hydra still delivers a good result very quickly.
My first impression is that there is good potential, and that Hydra is already a player to consider when good (but not excellent) results are needed quickly.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Just did a quick test based on my sample images. Hydra is for sure doing a better job than Photomatix and CS4 at alignement, but it is still isn't as accurate as a well optimized PTgui alignement. Other images might deliver different results though.
Colorwise also, I see some artifacts with Hydra that are not there with PTgui, but Hydra still delivers a good result very quickly.
My first impression is that there is good potential, and that Hydra is already a player to consider when good (but not excellent) results are needed quickly.
Cheers,
Bernard
Thanks for the feedback, Bernard. I've shied away from HDR so far, having come across some truly awful, artificial-looking results, but I suppose that like any other technique it works well in good hands. I look forward to seeing what you produce!
Jeremy
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I have tried yesterday to use Autopano Pro to align the images, but did not manage to tell it to not autoblend and export the layers separately. Did anyone manage to get that working?
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Not to break this thread up, but is there an HDR program that can work off of just one image?
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I have tried yesterday to use Autopano Pro to align the images, but did not manage to tell it to not autoblend and export the layers separately. Did anyone manage to get that working?
In the "create panorama" tab, you should select under LDR "individual layers" to get individual files containing warped and aligned images.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Not to break this thread up, but is there an HDR program that can work off of just one image?
That would be rather pointless, unless you're looking for that particular artificial look you get with certain tone mapping techniques.
To extract the greatest dynamic range, use your favourite raw converter. Most raw converters have gratis tutorials on their own websites, and for those that don't explain how to do this, try to use e.g. Google to search for "raw converter best dynamic range" or similar search terms.
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Bernard -
Are you on a Mac? If so, try: http://pangeasoft.net/pano/bracketeer/index.html (http://pangeasoft.net/pano/bracketeer/index.html). It's specifically designed for hand held HDR's. I've fooled with it a bit and it seems to work well enough to warrant further exploration.
My first tests with Bracketeer are not too encouraging in terms of alignement capability for hand held images.
The Fusion based algo seems to work well and offers a bit more control than PTgui, so it might be a good option for tripo shot HDR work, but alignement seems disapointing per my first tests, I need to spend more time playing with the parameters.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Not to break this thread up, but is there an HDR program that can work off of just one image?
Dynamic photo HDR link (http://www.mediachance.com/hdri/index.html) does a fair job from a single jpeg, the free trial doesn't time out either, it puts a small logo in one corner of the image, theres a few other limitations but it's usuable enough to get a fairly decent result. Wayne
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Thanks for the feedback, Bernard. I've shied away from HDR so far, having come across some truly awful, artificial-looking results, but I suppose that like any other technique it works well in good hands. I look forward to seeing what you produce!
Well, I hope that you will never notice that an image I produce uses some sort of HDR technique.
I understand that some people see HDR as a style, and respect that, but I do personnally currently see it as a technique among others to overcome the limitations of my gear.
Since software at post-processing is a key component, it is key to know in advance what needs to be done at shooting time to be able to get good results at the end of the chain.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I have pushed my investigations a bit further, and have found a new workflow that appears to give a result a bit better than PTgui, but at the cost of extra operations:
- Use Photoacute to align the images only (the HDR output of PA is poor) -> this produces an excellent alignment
- The usability of PA is very poor, each of the tiff files have to be saved on by one after alignment...
- Open each of the tiff in CS4 and re-save them as tiff (the next step doesn't work if this is not done, probably because PA applies some un-supported compression to its tiff files)
- Use bracketeer to apply a Fusion HDR to the images (Bracketeer alignement is poor).
Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard,
I use a Lightroom plugin called Enfuse occasionally and have found it pretty effective. 2 things bugged me though, it does not produce a layered output, and it does not appear to accept the changes initially made in LR (eg WB, CA etc).
Here's one example;
http://www.pbase.com/mike_broomfield/image/98270814 (http://www.pbase.com/mike_broomfield/image/98270814)
Regards,
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Bernard,
I use a Lightroom plugin called Enfuse occasionally and have found it pretty effective. 2 things bugged me though, it does not produce a layered output, and it does not appear to accept the changes initially made in LR (eg WB, CA etc).
Here's one example;
http://www.pbase.com/mike_broomfield/image/98270814 (http://www.pbase.com/mike_broomfield/image/98270814)
Regards,
Very natural looking sample indeed. I know a bit about the Enfuse approach to DR expansion, and have found it to deliver much more pleasing results compared to Tone Mapped images.
A few questions though:
- Does Enfuse have a Mac version? Last time I checked I got the feeling that it was Win only,
- Does it exist as a PS plug-in or standalone application? I have stopped using LR some time ago,
- How well does it deal with alignement?
Bracketeer is a Mac version of the Enfuse algo available as a standalone application, but its alignement capability appears to be pretty poor.
Thank you.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Enfuse works on the same algorithm (http://research.edm.uhasselt.be/~tmertens/papers/exposure_fusion_reduced.pdf) as TuFuse (http://www.tawbaware.com/tufuse.htm), but I found the later to provide slightly better results. Both provide quite reallistic images thanks to the way that algorithm works, which is a pixel selection rather than HDR tone mapping.
Moreover TuFuse performs a 2 steps blending with first iteration making a focus blend (DOF enhancement), and second an exposure blend (tone mapping).
I haven't used it intensively, but from my tests it provides a very good image in terms of local contrast (which is the most difficult part):
(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/tutorial/hdr/tufuse1.jpg)
Then you can add a global contrast curve to get the final image:
(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/tutorial/hdr/tufuse2.jpg)
Usually no halos, unreallistic lighting nor surprises, but in this case the correction of the brightness of the window seemed to affect the chair.
BR
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I use RAW Smart Objects.
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I too am a tad tripod-obsessed but the other way around I'm afraid...
So far I did have good results with the "align layers" function of CS3, way better than the tests I made with Photomatix 3.0 (very deceiving, and the "tonemapped" look is quite errrr hard to say the least). As said by Ted Dillard, used with ACR smart objects it sounds quite powerful.
Working mainly with LR I often try Enfuse, but the alignment is not that perfect (way better than Photomatix too, but still some occasional ghosting). It works for some cases and not others, it seems it doesn't tolerate much move between images.
I did think to try TuFuse or Enfuse, but would really like something that doesn't break the LR flow... With that constraint, LR/Enfuse is the best tool I found so far.
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I use the Enfuse LR plugin created by Timothy Armes, but if you do not use LR that is not much help I'm afraid, although he does offers a MAC version.. As Guillermo said other front ends are available...I'm not sure which offer Mac versions though.
http://timothyarmes.com/lrenfuse.php (http://timothyarmes.com/lrenfuse.php)
I'd say that for 95%+ of my work I'm on a tripod, so I don't usually check the align images feature. I can't say for sure how many problems I've had with it as my handheld shots tend to fall into the snapshot bucket. It sounds like Nicolas has put it through more paces than I have.
The misalignment of the images taken in shot I posted was quite significant by the way. My recollection is that I lost 5-10 of the linear width of the photo just due to the cropping required.
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In the "create panorama" tab, you should select under LDR "individual layers" to get individual files containing warped and aligned images.
Cheers,
Bernard
http://www.autopano.net/wiki/action/view/P...p_layer_edition (http://www.autopano.net/wiki/action/view/Photoshop_layer_edition)
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I use RAW Smart Objects.
Is it possible the make that work with handheld exposures though? I've tried and never found a way to make it work-- specifically, how do you deal wit the alignment?
Regarding the Enfuse plugin, look here: http://wiki.panotools.org/Enfuse (http://wiki.panotools.org/Enfuse). Looks like there's a few options to run it on a Mac without using LR.