Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: jeffreybehr on January 08, 2003, 11:44:11 am
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Sounds pretty tough, Joe. Do you know fotografers who spend very little time taking pics v. playing on these forums? Obviously some of us...perhaps the guys with the long egotistical lists of equipment in their signatures at DPReview are among them...spend not enough time in the field and too much time playing on their computer, but others don't.
I spend a lot of time in the field, but I also enjoy participating in these forums. And don't forget that quantity is no substitute for quality in fotografy.
Don't be so tough on us, Joe.
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If you want to keep up with the leading edge, expect to draw blood on occasions (such as upgrades - boy, was I pissed off when the D60 came out for 2/3 of what I paid for the D30; however, it had no effect on what my D30 could do - and still does!)
Andy
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Interesting discussion (for a change) - usuall the discussion around digital are completely boring. There are a huge number of gear heads on the web making terrible pictures, and a lot of artists with meager equiptment that they are doing wonderful work with. If you read artists who make great pictures talk about what they use, it often seems like and after thought. Moose Peterson, Art Morris, Art Wolfe, George Lepp and John Shaw (just to name a few), not to mention Michael of this site are all great photographer and they talk alot about their gear. I suspect this is largely because there is a good bit of money to be made talking about, reviewing etc all this stuff... I read all the reviews etc as much as the next guy, but I constalty have to remind my self and look at my favorite images to remeber that some of them were made with very meager cameras, and that what makes great images is time, hardwork and a little vision. Digital - sure - when it is a bit cheaper - for now I'm still making fine film images, I have one set of problems to deal with (cost and scanning mostly) - but with digital there are others - it is all a ballance.
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Sorry, I used my login from another sight to post my last reply. Not thephotogod just Brian R.
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True. Which is better: watercolor or oil paint? Neither! You choose your medium, with all its benefits and flaws, and you get creating!
I knew a photographer who would jump up and down on his slides to scratch them up before printing. Cool stuff.
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> Which is better? An artistic masterpiece with all the defects that film and scanner are heir to, or the same masterpiece with grainless sky, clean skin tones and the general 'luminosity' that are a hallmark of the D30, D60 and 1Ds etc?
well, that rather depends whether the artistic masterpiece is of a kind where those kind of measures of technical quality are relevant to its appreciation. Some are, some aren't.
No! Sorry guys! I don't disagree that there are opportunities where graininess can contribute to the dramatic effect of a presentation, but you've got Photoshop to create such effects, and many, many more effects, with all the plug-ins, that you probably never dreamed of.
Unfortunately, you can't go in the reverse direction. Same with resolution. If the detail's not there, you can't create it. If the detail IS there, you can demolish it, if it suits your artistic purposes. There's a difference. Your arguments are of an aplogist nature to excuse inferior technique. However, I agree there is an art to making the most out of a bad situation. But, when someone does succeed in using an "inferior - for want of a better word" technical situation to great effect, that's to their credit. But don't therefore draw the conclusion that such inadequacy of material should be the norm.
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And Ray is right, the Art-with-a-capital-A discussion can get the same tone. ("You aren't serious unless you can draw parallels between your work and the X movement").
Just wait til you hear from the people who don't think photography is or can be art! Now, THEY are the ones who IMO deserve some hands-on enlightenment!
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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How can you guys keep up? The D60 already discontinued 1 year after release!
The 1DS is already obsolete with the Kodak 14 megapixel model that hasnt even reached the shelves yet !!! In 1 year all the current cameras will be junk compared to whats available !!!!
Where do you guys get all the money to keep up?
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If all you guys arguing this stuff spent as much time actually taking images as you do arguing about cameras and equipment maybe it wouldnt matter who owns what. Where do you guys find time to actually use your cameras? Do you use your cameras?
One of the complaints about this site and the forums here that others talk about elsewhere is it is populated by the snooty and narcisistic 'Gray Poupon' crowd who overvalue their talent. A lot of fluff rather than any substance. People are more concerned with being seen with a 1DS or D60 or whatever rather than actually using it.
Sorry to vent. Just tired of the arguing and showmanship so prevalent these days from people who have no reason to be so cocky. This is supposed to be about photography not who owns what or why.
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Chung: how do I keep up? I don't. This isn't a race, and while I am interested in where the technology is going, I don't care if I am on the cutting edge or not. I have the tools that I need for the work I do.
Joe: Ever watch the movie Wall Street? There's a scene where Gecko's on a beach (is that his name?), talking to Charlie Sheen on a portable phone -- that is the size of a loaf of bread. I love it, because in the scene, Gecko's trying to make Charlie envy his life (and his gadgets), yet today it looks ridiculous. An economics professor once explained how rich people like Gecko are important for consumer electronics -- they are the folks with money to burn that create a market for cutting edge gadgets. The money they spend to buy the latest and greatest is basically funding the electronics companies R&D. Which means, they can release the products cheaper faster.
So don't get too frustrated at people showing off their toys -- it's their bucks that bring the price down for the rest of us in a year or two.
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Nonsense! Real arguments don't take place over equipment. Any disputes can be easily resolved by carrying out a few tests. That's why equipment discussions are more popular. They're more rational and people can feel secure there's an answer. Does anyone doubt that the Canon 1Ds is currently the best 35mm camera available? Sure, one can have an argument about what is meant by 'best', but that then becomes an argument on semantics rather than equipment.
Often the people with the biggest egos are the artists and those who flock to watch (or hear) their works - the play 'Waiting for Godot' for example which sparked fisticuffs during the interval on it's first performance, or Stravinsky's Rite of Spring which had people belting each other in the aisles.
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Albert is correct. There are a lot of people who feel somehow using a professional camera will make them professional photographers. It makes things a whole lot easier to have a camera like the 1D or 1DS to work with but a camera does not a photographer make. If ones images are second rate they will continue to be so with or without a 1DS or the most current camera. I am not saying the 1DS isnt the top of the pile right now. I am pointing out some beginner and intermediate photographers will purchase one thinking it will make their results 'professional'. It will do nothing of the sort. It just gives you a better tool to assist you in your creative vision. It will not help you with composition or creating a 'good' photograph. Anyone who doubts this go to the dpreview boards and check out the 1DS samples-the same old "look at my cat" photos taken with the 1DS....the same people who posted the same cat photos using the D30 and D60 before they 'made the jump to pro' by buying the 1DS. Garbage in, garbage out.
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I guess there's a time and a place, no? As a lover of technology, I love to see the latest and greatest (heck, I am browsing this site with the beta version of Apple's hot new browser). I am more than happy to grab a beer with a friend and talk about the latest MP3 player, or whatever.
I guess I just get tired when the discussions get so adament. The "if you don't spend as much as I do, you can't be as serious as I am" tone. Think of filmmaking: what if people insisted that because high-tech is available, all serious filmmakers should use it? They'd be laughed at. There is room George Lucas and his high tech, and for Kevin Smith and his low tech. And Ray is right, the Art-with-a-capital-A discussion can get the same tone. ("You aren't serious unless you can draw parallels between your work and the X movement").
I suppose a balance would be nice. Not conversations about what is "the best", but conversations about how to better use this new power, if you have it, and why someone might need it. (Compare the CGI Gollum with Jar Jar Binks -- a good and a bad use of technological power!) Not everyone needs a 1DS. Heck, not everyone needs a digital camera. But some people do -- I'd like to hear why.
Dan
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So Ansel Adams used gear that is now 'primative and obsolete', well I certainly did'nt know that, I thought he used an 8x10 and I DO know he used a Hasselblad with a selection of lenses. Thats a camera that gives better image quality than a Canon 1DS (yes, that good!!)
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Ansel Adams used film and lenses that would be considered throw away items today. Grainy film and uncoated optics etc... Yes he used a hasselblad at the end of his life, but not for most of his shooting life.
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Wow, what a topic. I've been a "professional" Photographer for 19 years, and now I manage a Digital studio. The equipment is top of the line (Leaf Volare) and I maintain all the computers and software. Whan I go on vacation or out for a weekend of shooting, I take my Canon AE1 Program (Film Camera 1983) or a 4x5 field camera. Do I prefer Film to Digital? No! nor do I prefer Digital to Film. They both take me where I want to go. I come to these forams to increase my knowledge base, the same as several others I visit. I may just buy a digital camera for home use to, but not to best anyone, just because it will take me where I want to go.
I don't think there are to many people on these forams who just buy equipment to have the best. But they do come here to tell us what they have, the same as all of us do when we buy a new car. Lighten up a little.
Brian R.
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It's amazing how often one hears the adage, with lots of variants, to the effect that the mere possession of the latest technological developments in cameras does not make one a better photographer, does not facilitate the taking of more interesting photos, more meaningful photos, more esthetically pleasing photos, photos with greater 'artistic' merit and so on.
I would suggest that anyone who knows anything about photography, knows this to be broadly true. The only people who might be fooled into equating the sophistication of the equipment with the talent of the photographer are likely to be the non-photographic general public.
On many occasions in crowded or touristy places, with my D60 and telephoto zoom dangling around my neck, I've been approached by complete strangers curious as to what magazine I might be working for. Sometimes I'm confused with a local photographic celebrity whose images, it almost seems, are on every postcard and calendar. Lately, the conversation tends to focus on -"Is that the camera that costs as much as a car?" - a reference to the 1Ds.
The facts is, whilst I'm very much aware that having a D60 in my hands does not make me a more artisitically sensitive and insightful person, I sure enjoy the activity of taking photos more. And that's what counts for me as an amateur.
But are the photos any 'better'? Undoubtedly! Which is better? An artistic masterpiece with all the defects that film and scanner are heir to, or the same masterpiece with grainless sky, clean skin tones and the general 'luminosity' that are a hallmark of the D30, D60 and 1Ds etc?
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Now we are really onto something!
The best photo I have experienced (yes, experienced rather than "seen") was a 30"x40" print of a scene taken in winter and at night on a crab fishing boat in the Bering Sea. The photographer shot with 35mm, intentionally using the old Scotch 1000 ISO print film for its horrendous grain.
Framed and hung at the end of a long hallway, the viewer first encounters the photo at a distance and can just make out the brightly yellow-lit crew struggling in blowing snow, amid crashing waves on a wildly tilting deck. As you walk down the hall the photo melts into an indecipherable wash of golf ball-sized grain an out-of-focus elements. On a small label below the photo, the photographer says something to the effect that "You have just experienced life on the Bering Sea- Best viewed from a distance but a blur of fear, exhaustion and cold when you are there."
I don't care a whit about the photographer's camera, and in fact didn't ask. I am delighted with the experience of his photo and the vision he brought to me.
Hank
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The photographer had everything to do with where the photo was hung, and in fact planned it before the shoot based on his experience with grainy films and night photography on fishing boats. He is a good photographer in the first place, but goes one step beyond in thinking about how the viewers will encounter and interact with the final product. I relish that opportunity to have more say in how our work is presented.
I wasn't aware of the kid's video camera, but would love to find one. I used Polapan extensively in the days before digital for short-turnaround projects when we couldn't wait a week for film to be processed and returned to remote locations, as well as for pure fun and "mood". I too mourn it's passing. I don't recall the names, but Polaroid also made a color version which was useful and fun for its narrow color palette (You could create the "faded" Kodachrome" of old slides very easily) and a "blue" high contrast negative film intended for photographing documents. The latter stuff was really wild to play with when you pointed it at something other than paper. Haven't used any of it in years, so I don't know if any is available today. Since many of the needs for the film are met digitally today, it's not surprising that they discontinued it.
As much as I have become dependent on digital, I have a growing urge to get back into my "wet" darkroom. It's an extensive setup, but all the chemicals will have to be replaced because I haven't been through the door in over a year. A friend mistakenly processed some TX400 in Dektol, "ruining" the film for its intended use on the one hand, but producing some oddly ghostly yet high contrast images on the other. I see some real potential for "dreamscapes."
Obviously I believe photography should be fun, but because of the tools involved it's easy to get SERIOUS and forget the fun. Alternative processes, whatever the medium, are a great way to rediscover the fun.
Hank
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"If the detail's not there, you can't create it. If the detail IS there, you can demolish it, if it suits your artistic purposes. There's a difference. Your arguments are of an aplogist nature to excuse inferior technique. However, I agree there is an art to making the most out of a bad situation.....But don't therefore draw the conclusion that such inadequacy of material should be the norm."
I guess I don't understand where that comes from. I certainly don't feel that inadequate materials should be the norm, and I don't read that into any of the other posts on this thread. I also make no apologies for alternative methods or regard them as inferior methods. If they do the best job of fulfilling the photographer's goal or vision, they are superior rather than inferior.
I'll let others speak for themselves on this, but I agree with you that lots of affects can be created after the fact in Photoshop, and in fact I use them when they suite my needs. However, in the same vein many can also be created directly using film or digital camera controls creatively. My point is that equipment, materials and processes should be judged in terms of how well they fulfill a photographer's intentions for a photo.
When detail is not important in a painting, painters do not use fine brushes then smear the results with knives or large brushes. They go right to the tools that do the best job for them. If I don't want detail in a photo and in fact other methods meet my needs directly, I won't shoot for fine detail then go into Photoshop to "demolish" it.
I don't see a problem here.
Hank
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> Which is better? An artistic masterpiece with all the defects that film and scanner are heir to, or the same masterpiece with grainless sky, clean skin tones and the general 'luminosity' that are a hallmark of the D30, D60 and 1Ds etc?
well, that rather depends whether the artistic masterpiece is of a kind where those kind of measures of technical quality are relevant to its appreciation. Some are, some aren't.
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As much as I have become dependent on digital, I have a growing urge to get back into my "wet" darkroom. It's an extensive setup, but all the chemicals will have to be replaced because I haven't been through the door in over a year. A friend mistakenly processed some TX400 in Dektol, "ruining" the film for its intended use on the one hand, but producing some oddly ghostly yet high contrast images on the other. I see some real potential for "dreamscapes."
Obviously I believe photography should be fun, but because of the tools involved it's easy to get SERIOUS and forget the fun. Alternative processes, whatever the medium, are a great way to rediscover the fun.
I always saw the wet darkroom as an obstacle to my pursuit of photography. Not much fun, I thought, spending a good portion of one's life in a dark room exposed to potentially harmful chemicals. It was the possibilities and potential of the digital darkroom that got me interested in photography in the first instance, so forgive me if I seem a bit unappreciative of the nostalgia and fun of the wet darkroom.
But I agree, one should explore and use whatever technique or process captivates one's imagination or inspires one or seems fun. I guess I don't have the patience to mess around with pinhole cameras, for example, but I recently bought a Nikon 4300 P&S camera as a present and chose this particular model because it supposedly had a choice of F stops as large as F13.4 (which in 35mm terms would be equivalent to about F64) and looked forward to borrowing the camera to experiment with a few 'pinhole camera type' shots - perhaps not quite the same depth of field, but no doubt sharper. Turned out these large F stops were not real F stops but filters to compensate for a limited top shutter speed of 1/1000th - which was disappointing.
Since acquiring a D60, I've been unable to interest myself in shooting film. The whole process just seems so unbelievably cumbersome and slow. Can't say I'm feeling much nostalgia about the loss of that process.
But each to his own! Whatever turns you on!
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Dude, you don't like the chemical smell? :: Mmmmmmmm....! We had a darkroom in the basement when I was a kid, so man that smell brings back memories. But, yeah, I never had the patience for darkroom work either. (Which is why I got my Apple II.)
Pinhole and patience - yeah, the only reason I do it is I have a polaroid pinhole setup, so it is relatively painless. But a friend of mine turned his 35mm into a pinhole by poking a hole in the lens cap. I want to try this with my D100 -- the fun of pinhole but with the benefit of digital! Yowza!
Dan
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That argument makes me chuckle. To paraphrase Frank Zappa, anything you name "art", is art.
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Ray, I saw a website on this pinhole idea once... I'll have to dig around for it. I think what you found is a common problem. If I remember right, the two ways to fix it were to (a) buy a precisely machined pinhole, and ( use an extension tube to pull the hole father from the sensor. One of these days, when I have a little time I may play a little more.
Dan
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Some corrections:
1. The D60 MAY be out of production, but those shooting it are still creating great pics.
2. The 1Ds will NEVER be made obsolete by a mid-level, slow-shooting, unsealed-Nikon-bodied high-megapixel Kodak camera.
3. When and if Canon replaces the 1Ds with something better, some of us will switch and some of us won't. Those of us like me, for whom the 1Ds is our first professional-quality camera, probably will skip a generation because we too are still taking fabulous pics with our 1Ds.
'We' get our money from the same place that Porsche and Mercedes and Jaguar and $500K-home owners do, wherever that is. I saved mine during a great 35-year career as a salaried accountant and manager and still retired at age 54! Where did you get yours?
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I have to chime in here as well. I aggree there is too much arguing about equipment. Why this is a subject of argument I dont know but it seems like some people are more into gadgetry than photography. To each his own. If thats what one gets out of photography then more power to them.
Are there some people who like to show off the latest gadgets? Are there people whos ego is stroked by saying they own the best equipment and not by taking the best images? yes but thats human nature. There are people like this in any undertaking where the equipment is expensive. Does it make someone a better photographer because they have a professional body instead of a D60 or D30? No. If they take mediocre pictures with a D60 they will still take mediocre pictures with a 1DS. Too many people equate someone having the best equipment to being the best photographer. There are a lot of people who spend the money on the best equipment just because they can afford it. Whether they can utilize it to its full extent is another story.
So please stop arguing about the 1DS or D60 or lenses etc. Deal with what you have and use it well. Who cares what someone else is using.
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ftp://mail.gbgcorp.com/Download/Photo/ (http://ftp://mail.gbgcorp.com/Download/Photo/)
This link will take you to some 1/3 size JPEGs of some panoramic photos I created using a Kodak DC4800 3.1 MP digital P&S. Each image is a composite of 8-10 individual shots blended together to produce the final image. Is the DC4800 state of the art? No. Compared to the 1Ds it is a piece of crap. However, even though it has some significant limitations, I have used it (and Photoshop) to create images that most people would be proud to display on their wall.
Bottom line: get the best equipment you can afford, and then learn to use it to the fullest. Ansel Adams used equipment that would be considered primitive and obsolete by today's standards, but he was able to capture his artistic vision with it and create many memorable and beautiful images. Most people never use the equipment they have to the fullest extent possible.
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This desire for better-and-better equipment seems to come from an expectation that the goal of photography is to render reality perfectly. As an art photographer, I don't buy that. All photography is interpretation -- taking an infinitely complex subject (reality) and rendering it with imperfect tools (lenses, sensors, etc.). The challenge and craft is not in how perfect the result is (how little is lost), but how good the result is with respect to the tools used (how much is added).
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I can't resist sharing my reactions to this and other similar discussions. They have spurred me to two insights and actions:
1. I'm archiving them for my 3-year old granddaughter's entainment when she turns 21. By then, when digital's fate has long since been decided, the issues debated so hotly will be of great entertainment for her and her friends. Heck, such material ought to be great fodder for a college term paper whether she majors in art, sociology, anthropology or engineering. I sure wish a similar archive existed to record the introduction of color film, which "doomed" black and white film so many years ago. Do you think there would be points in common?
2. As much as digital photography is dependent upon computers, so is it subject to the foibles of that evolving technology. "Newer and better" versions emerge faster than the marketing departments can pucker their lips to the heraldic trumpets. Just as I do with computers, I will skip several generations before "upgrading" my digital camera. Heck, I did the same thing when buying film cameras in the gloomy past, as did most everyone else I know, so why should I behave any differently toward emerging digital models?
Time will most certainly cure all <digital> evils. Prices go down as features go up, even if the newest models cost arms and legs. I was near panic when I paid $2700 for my D30 a couple of years ago, but what is it worth today? For that matter what will $2700 buy today, in terms of features? The D30 doesn't take any worse pictures than it did new, unless there is some kind of sensor deterioration we don't know about yet. My expectations for a digital camera have simply gone up faster than my budget. No, I will not pay the current asking price for a D1s, but rest assured that the USED price of a D1s will have a lot to do with the price-per-feature of its successor. At that time I will make the decision between an antiquated D1s and its sibbling, but for the time being I am content to endure the social embarassment and sensor envy I am experiencing with my puny D30.
Hank
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You guys just think you got it tough with gearheads and equipment upgrades - when I was young and even stupider I spent 25 years racing SCCA sports cars when there was no money in it; just a hobby. I finally got into Lotus single seaters (Lotus 18, 20, 22). We were buying a new car every season (maybe $10-15 thou today equiv) -. I finally went Formula Vee to cut the cost - and then gave it up. The guy who sold me my Vee drove a Lotus 40 (200 mph, 400+ hp $25,000 in that day's money) - and the Lotus 40s killed exactly half of the Americans who bought them. (No, not my friend)...and I have seen through the eyes of a girlfriend a hobby that makes that one look cheap - which is high level cross country horse competition. So everything is relative, after all. willie408.
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Hank, I wonder if the photographer had a part in the staging of the print. Sounds like an awesome job!
Did you ever hear of this? Fisher-Price long ago made a kid's version of a video camera. It used audio tapes and a plastic lens to capture these grainy black and white movies. Well, I guess this toy became an underground artistic hit -- professionals were snapping them up, since they gave them this wonderful dreamy video effect they couldn't get anywhere else.
Last year, I also experimented with Polaroid's 35mm Polapan film. It was designed to help business people make quick slides for presentations. The film shoots these high-contrast, grainy images, that you process yourself in this little mini-lab. Awesome. I picked up a processor for $10 on ebay, and started to play. I absolutely LOVED the graininess of these images! Unfortunately, Polaroid discontinued the film last summer. :( The phootgrapher Mike Meyer has a mini-site up about this film. Click here. (http://www.photo-mark.com/polaroid/)
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Ray, you are right, technically, but let me explain my perspective on this type of "inferior" work.
Your arguments are of an aplogist nature to excuse inferior technique.
Good heavens, no. These arguments are acknowledging the artistic power of "inferior" techniques. I don't think anyone would say that clean, noise-free images are not important and useful, and shouln't be the norm. However, sometimes you can tap into some real artistic power by ignoring the best methods, and retreating to more basic materials. This is not "making the best out of a bad situatuion". It is using the techniques and processes to try to tap into some new alternatives.
You could use Photoshop to do all that, but that isn't the point. Artistic expression comes not only from the final result, but from the process it took to get there. Sometimes, I need to play in the mud to get inspiration. Sometimes, using that pinhole camera with it's "inferior" technology opens me up to visual possibilities I didn't see before. Sure, I could recreate the "pinhole effect" in Photoshop... but how do you learn what is really possible and what is impossible unless you do it by hand.
Now, Photoshop as a tool can also lead me to new visual possibilities -- it does every day (and believe me, I've been a power user since it first came out). But it is not the only way. Each tool and each process leads me to different awareness - and different results.
All that said, this is just how it works for me. I would never make a claim that "unless you start with the old tools, you will never really learn". I think that is hogwash. It's just that I have found that for me, at times, inferior techniques yield some suprisingly superior results.
Dan
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Dansroka,
I tried the idea of a hole in the lens cap to get a pinhole camera effect - although I didn't spoil a good lens cap. Used a piece of aluminium cooking foil fixed around the lens with a rubber band. Alas! The image circle is far too small to be of any use that I can think of.
The old argument of whether photography is an art or a craft is unresolvable. The confusion is in the question. We're so used to categorising and labeling things that we (some folks, anyway) assume that everything must be either 'this' or 'that'. In fact, both art and craft are involved in the making of - I would say any and every - photograph.
There are some very successful photographers, I believe, although I can't think off-hand of the names of any, who would assert that photography is no more than a craft. I take this to be an expression of humility and a show of deference to great painters.