Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: VanKou on December 23, 2008, 01:45:25 pm

Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: VanKou on December 23, 2008, 01:45:25 pm
I am thinking whether I should move away from Hasselblad to Mamiya because of the AF issue.  Based on your experience, are Mamiya lenses (not the latest AFD ones, the older zooms) up to the task of dealing with a 39mp back?

Thanks and happy holidays to all.
Evangelos.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 23, 2008, 01:52:39 pm
Quote from: VanKou
I am thinking whether I should move away from Hasselblad to Mamiya because of the AF issue.  Based on your experience, are Mamiya lenses (not the latest AFD ones, the older zooms) up to the task of dealing with a 39mp back?

Thanks and happy holidays to all.
Evangelos.


Oops read your post wrong. But anyway not sure on the older zooms how they do , the new stuff works very well though
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: markowich on December 23, 2008, 08:49:34 pm
Quote from: VanKou
I am thinking whether I should move away from Hasselblad to Mamiya because of the AF issue.  Based on your experience, are Mamiya lenses (not the latest AFD ones, the older zooms) up to the task of dealing with a 39mp back?

Thanks and happy holidays to all.
Evangelos.

hi evangelos,
i do not understand what you mean by the 'AF issue' of hasselblad. my H autofokus works very well after all...
mery xmas, peter
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: ziocan on December 23, 2008, 09:40:27 pm
Quote from: markowich
hi evangelos,
i do not understand what you mean by the 'AF issue' of hasselblad. my H autofokus works very well after all...
mery xmas, peter
He  probably meant the opposite. That the Mamiya AF is slower or something.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: amsp on December 23, 2008, 09:54:36 pm
I'm pretty sure he means moving from the manual focus V-series to auto focus Mamiya 645.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: mcfoto on December 23, 2008, 11:22:09 pm
Quote from: VanKou
I am thinking whether I should move away from Hasselblad to Mamiya because of the AF issue.  Based on your experience, are Mamiya lenses (not the latest AFD ones, the older zooms) up to the task of dealing with a 39mp back?

Thanks and happy holidays to all.
Evangelos.

Hi
Just did a shoot with the Aptus 75/AFDII/55-110 Zoom @ f 11-16 in the studio & the quality was excellent. BTW the Aptus 75 is a 33 mp back & competes with the Phase 39 back. If you are going to Mamiya get the AFDIII body.
Denis
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: etrump on December 24, 2008, 12:11:05 am
Quote from: mcfoto
Hi
Just did a shoot with the Aptus 75/AFDII/55-110 Zoom @ f 11-16 in the studio & the quality was excellent. BTW the Aptus 75 is a 33 mp back & competes with the Phase 39 back. If you are going to Mamiya get the AFDIII body.
Denis

AFDIII still has some firmware issues.  Prime lens freeze up but with current firmware the metering and dials seem to work much better.

Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 24, 2008, 07:09:24 am
Quote from: etrump
AFDIII still has some firmware issues.  Prime lens freeze up but with current firmware the metering and dials seem to work much better.


Make sure you have firmware 1.4 it is a lot better . To check go to custom function 36 and it should be there. You have to send your body in for this firmware update , takes a couple days. Actually mine was done the day it arrived and shipped back same day. Major improvement in shutter lag, flash syncing , mirror up functions and several other improvements. It is a free update also
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: VanKou on December 24, 2008, 07:41:48 am
Thank you all for the replies.  I am sorry I was not clear.  I meant moving from a manual focus V-body to something with AF.  An H system would be my first choice but there are cost issues.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Jack Flesher on December 24, 2008, 08:53:06 am
Quote from: VanKou
Thank you all for the replies.  I am sorry I was not clear.  I meant moving from a manual focus V-body to something with AF.  An H system would be my first choice but there are cost issues.

Yes both the 55-110 AF and 105-210 AF zooms are more than adequate for 39 MP capture, but you need to stop them down to f8 through f16 to get the best out of them.  Note also that the zooms are a bit slower to AF than the primes.

Cheers,
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: csp on December 24, 2008, 08:58:44 am
Quote from: VanKou
Thank you all for the replies.  I am sorry I was not clear.  I meant moving from a manual focus V-body to something with AF.  An H system would be my first choice but there are cost issues.


well mamiya is alive today, kind of,  because of the huge user base and used market  but the only mf system which has the potential to survive in the long run is probably hasselblad.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: jing q on December 25, 2008, 01:02:09 am
considering that the next generation of backs are above 50MP, a good question would be are the Mamiya lenses (non-D lenses) able to resolve that much?
I'm considering switching to a Hassy H, and if the older mamiya lenses don't benefit from the added resolution and their D lenses cost as much as a hassy, makes more sense to get a Hassy
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 25, 2008, 07:25:26 am
May want to take a look at this test with the P65 Plus Jack and i tested a couple weeks ago. The D lenses did amazingly well but we did not shoot much with anything else but I know the 55mm AF is just as good as as my 80 D and 150 D and even the 28D posted did very well. http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4333 (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4333)

Merry Christmas to everyone, Enjoy the day
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: etrump on December 26, 2008, 01:06:51 am
Quote from: jing q
considering that the next generation of backs are above 50MP, a good question would be are the Mamiya lenses (non-D lenses) able to resolve that much?
I'm considering switching to a Hassy H, and if the older mamiya lenses don't benefit from the added resolution and their D lenses cost as much as a hassy, makes more sense to get a Hassy

Let me get this straight;  you have Mamiya equipment already and are considering a switch to hassy because the new glass is the same money?    




Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Carsten W on December 26, 2008, 09:31:55 am
Quote from: etrump
Let me get this straight;  you have Mamiya equipment already and are considering a switch to hassy because the new glass is the same money?

The way I understand it, he is considering switching because the Hasselblad glass is better, and about the same money.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: BJNY on December 26, 2008, 09:53:57 am
....and each HC lens syncs up to 1/800th with its built-in leaf shutter
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 26, 2008, 11:57:56 am
And the Phase One body focal plane shutter does 1/4000th . Pick your poison. The high sync is what some may need and the higher shutter is what others may need. Rather have the faster shutter myself. I have gotten around the high sync shutter for years and have much more need for the higher shutter speed. Horses for courses, pick what systems works best for you.

I personally would not switch systems because of the glass. I would switch or chose a system because of features , ergonomics, ISO limits, different types of lenses, T/S, software and stuff like that. Obviously if you need something one system has over the other than that would come into play and price of course. Each system does a nice job of producing results , just find one that clearly gives you as the shooter more advantages over another on how you work and what you shoot.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Carsten W on December 26, 2008, 12:54:26 pm
Quote from: Guy Mancuso
I personally would not switch systems because of the glass. I would switch or chose a system because of features , ergonomics, ISO limits, different types of lenses, T/S, software and stuff like that.

Hmm, I have exactly the opposite opinion. I would really have to feel forced to switch system over ISO etc., by being completely unable to get my shots done in a system, but I *would* switch systems if a different one had much better glass. I am not saying that Hasselblad has better glass than Mamiya, just that *if* it did, and I felt limited by my current system, then better glass would make me switch faster than any other factor.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 26, 2008, 03:26:24 pm
Carsten in 35mm system I would feel that way but in MF i feel less inclined because of glass only. I see much more of a glass swing in 35mm than I do in MF. Interesting turnabout there
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: VanKou on December 26, 2008, 04:32:19 pm
Thank you all for your replies...

Speaking of glass...I am not particularly impressed by the color produced by the phase backs on Mamiya cameras.  It could be the glass, it could be the backs, I don't know.  The color on those P65+ pics, as well on raw files given to me by a dealer for evaluation is not something to write home about.  The images are high resolution but lifeless... it could be just me.  My old Zeiss glass with a V96C back is producing much more pleasing color.  Phocus also made things better as well.  The images look as if they came out of my Canon but the resolution is 3-4 higher.  I am not as hot as using Mamiya as my AF camera...
The good lenses cost as much as Hasselblad H lenses do.

Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 26, 2008, 06:06:25 pm
We have to remember the P65 plus which Jack and i just tested ourselves the color is off right now in the pre-production units. Actually the color temp was off by about 1000 kelvin so until full production units are shipping do not judge the color and even Phase will tell you that. There working on final firmware and software profiles for C1. It is there first Dalsa sensor so it is different than Kodak that is in all there other backs. This is a adjustment they certainly are working on before shipping. I am actually surprised a dealer sent those files to you without explaining that about the P65. It is a great back as you may have seen in regards to detail but noise, color and such are just not optimized until shipping. But there is as a general rule a slight color difference between the Dalsa and Kodak sensors but we need to remember Hassy and Kodak use exactly the same Kodak sensors. Also if you use Phase Backs than use C1 , no question the best raw processing for Phase files. The Hassy I can't comment on as far as software since i do not use that system although it would be my next choice if i did not shoot the Phase system.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: mcfoto on December 26, 2008, 06:58:10 pm
Quote from: Guy Mancuso
We have to remember the P65 plus which Jack and i just tested ourselves the color is off right now in the pre-production units. Actually the color temp was off by about 1000 kelvin so until full production units are shipping do not judge the color and even Phase will tell you that. There working on final firmware and software profiles for C1. It is there first Dalsa sensor so it is different than Kodak that is in all there other backs. This is a adjustment they certainly are working on before shipping. I am actually surprised a dealer sent those files to you without explaining that about the P65. It is a great back as you may have seen in regards to detail but noise, color and such are just not optimized until shipping. But there is as a general rule a slight color difference between the Dalsa and Kodak sensors but we need to remember Hassy and Kodak use exactly the same Kodak sensors. Also if you use Phase Backs than use C1 , no question the best raw processing for Phase files. The Hassy I can't comment on as far as software since i do not use that system although it would be my next choice if i did not shoot the Phase system.

Hi Guy
Thanks for your detailed response about the P65. We always shoot Leaf & since Phase is using the Dalsa chip I am very keen to test this back. We have a Mamiya 645 AFDII with a few lenses. Down here in Australia L&P are the agents for Phase/Mamiya. I like the fact that it is FF ( very close ) & shoots at 1 f/s. From what I have heard the new AFDIII has improved shutter lag over the AFDII.
Denis
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 26, 2008, 07:38:42 pm
The AFDIII or Phase body one in the same is certainly a improvement in the shutter lag area and i mean much better by a country mile . On the AFDIII make sure you have firmware 1.4 which really makes the shutter lag seem very minimal. It drove me crazy to be honest before with the AFDII. I shot some golf and i had to hit the shutter on the START of the downswing. This obviously was a big issue for me and the new body and the 1.4 firmware is much much better. Still there but hardly noticeable. So I highly recommend the AFDIII just for this reason alone.

On the P65 I know next month Jack and I will have one on our workshop a full production ready to ship unit to demo and Phase mentioned Michael will have some on his Antarctica trip also. So next month we should be getting a lot of user reports on it from both workshops, which will be great to learn more of it's capabilities in the field. Of course both locations will be very cold so not going to get hot weather info this time around but certainly should be some good reports to judge it. The detail is pretty amazing from it
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: csp on December 27, 2008, 07:22:49 am
Quote from: Guy Mancuso
The AFDIII or Phase body one in the same is certainly a improvement in the shutter lag area and i mean much better by a country mile . On the AFDIII make sure you have firmware 1.4 which really makes the shutter lag seem very minimal. It drove me crazy to be honest before with the AFDII. I shot some golf and i had to hit the shutter on the START of the downswing. This obviously was a big issue for me and the new body and the 1.4 firmware is much much better. Still there but hardly noticeable. So I highly recommend the AFDIII just for this reason alone.


in the past when mamiya was much cheaper than hasselblad all the shortcomings - lens performance, af, shutterlag, broken shutters - did not hurt so much. but today with prices at the same level as hasselblad i would not buy into this system anymore. there is a good reason why you don't find much mamiya gear in rental houses but a h body and hc lenses  you can get  probably everywhere in the word.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: csp on December 27, 2008, 07:23:17 am
Quote from: Guy Mancuso
The AFDIII or Phase body one in the same is certainly a improvement in the shutter lag area and i mean much better by a country mile . On the AFDIII make sure you have firmware 1.4 which really makes the shutter lag seem very minimal. It drove me crazy to be honest before with the AFDII. I shot some golf and i had to hit the shutter on the START of the downswing. This obviously was a big issue for me and the new body and the 1.4 firmware is much much better. Still there but hardly noticeable. So I highly recommend the AFDIII just for this reason alone.


in the past when mamiya was much cheaper than hasselblad all the shortcomings - lens performance, af, shutterlag, broken shutters - did not hurt so much. but today with prices at the same level as hasselblad i would not buy into this system anymore. there is a good reason why you don't find much mamiya gear in rental houses but a h body and hc lenses  you can get  probably everywhere in the word.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 27, 2008, 07:48:21 am
Well not so sure about that the 55mm I paid 500 dollars , okay not the best build quality but the lens performance is outstanding. As far as rentals I can rent either system with a full set of lenses here in Phoenix which is a big city but a small market. Shutter lag was a issue but not so much anymore, Af is very fast although the 3 points are close together and if you need 1/4000th shutter there is not much out there in focal plane. Yes there D lenses are not cheap but I shot Leica for years and there are much more expensive but the 80 d, 150d and even the 28d are extremely good lenses plus several others as well. I am not wanting for much and honestly i am one of the biggest lens whores around. I come from 4 years of leica only glass. I did not step down at all and if anything my images hold up much better. The other issue not even discussed is the Phase Backs and using C1 which is a awesome combination. Sure i could shoot the Hassy H2 but i am locked out of there 28mm and that does not sit well either with me. I understand not wanting to buy a certain system no question. I would not touch a Sinar with a 10 ft pole myself . Frankly you only have a couple choices here and every system there is some compromise to it and features you wish you had or wish had the same from another system. I shoot a lot of many different things and the Mamiya system works for me , could it be better. Absolutely no question but so can Hassy, Sinar and leaf systems. There is no true winner here, you need to find a system that does almost everything you need with the compromises that come with it. But saying Mamiya glass is inferior is not a true statement and there are many users out there that do very well with it.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: VanKou on December 27, 2008, 07:50:19 am
Quote from: Guy Mancuso
We have to remember the P65 plus which Jack and i just tested ourselves the color is off right now in the pre-production units. Actually the color temp was off by about 1000 kelvin so until full production units are shipping do not judge the color and even Phase will tell you that. There working on final firmware and software profiles for C1. It is there first Dalsa sensor so it is different than Kodak that is in all there other backs. This is a adjustment they certainly are working on before shipping. I am actually surprised a dealer sent those files to you without explaining that about the P65. It is a great back as you may have seen in regards to detail but noise, color and such are just not optimized until shipping. But there is as a general rule a slight color difference between the Dalsa and Kodak sensors but we need to remember Hassy and Kodak use exactly the same Kodak sensors. Also if you use Phase Backs than use C1 , no question the best raw processing for Phase files. The Hassy I can't comment on as far as software since i do not use that system although it would be my next choice if i did not shoot the Phase system.

Guy:

They did not send me P65+ files.  The files were from P45+, P30+ and P21+.  These were the ones I was not impressed with at all...  No visual appeal.  I am sure the backs are good but if the images do not pop?  You know what I am talking about... it is kinda using Canon L lenses vs.  the consumer stuff and I am talking color quality.  Everybody focuses on pixel count and resolution these days.  Tonality is something that is forgotten.

Thanks for the clarification.  Hopefully the P65+ will have the right profiles in the future.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 27, 2008, 07:58:47 am
Problem maybe how there processed also, but understand your meaning. May want to try processing some yourself to the style you like. Many things can be adjusted in C1 and fine tuned to your taste.

I know some folks like the look of the Dalsa sensors over the Kodak and obviously the other way around too. Best thing you could maybe do is get a phase body one lens and test a leaf back than switch out to a Phase back and see what look feels better for you but i agree photography is all about look and feel, one reason i stayed with the 22 mpx sensors is I like the look and feel better from the fatter pixels. Shooting leica for so long it was all about the look, so totally understand your comment. I say run them head to head and see what type of sensor and also what software works best to you. The bottom line and I don't care what system it is I feel it was a major move up in image quality over 35mm and to me that was my criteria was to get above the 35mm curve and MF does that. Than find what system and look you are after.

I'm not here to sell any system to anyone or even defend my outlay of money for it but i do like what Phase brings to the table and my reasons for going down there path are what are important to what i shoot and work. I have switched system on a dime in the past ( to many times) and will always do that if i find a better mouse trap. LOL You just have to get what feels the best for what you do. Not what name sits on the face plate
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 27, 2008, 08:21:21 am
I do think 2009 will be interesting with leica's S2 and improvements most likely coming from all the back makers. So we will have to see what these folks bring to the table, I know of some improvements already but I can't comment on them. But I think MF has a future even in these tough economic times we will have to see who survives, what mergers happen, shared technology happens or just closes there doors. I am just going to sit back and see what develops
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: csp on December 27, 2008, 08:40:02 am
Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Well not so sure about that the 55mm I paid 500 dollars , okay not the best build quality but the lens performance is outstanding. As far as rentals I can rent either system with a full set of lenses here in Phoenix which is a big city but a small market. Shutter lag was a issue but not so much anymore, Af is very fast although the 3 points are close together and if you need 1/4000th shutter there is not much out there in focal plane. Yes there D lenses are not cheap but I shot Leica for years and there are much more expensive but the 80 d, 150d and even the 28d are extremely good lenses plus several others as well. I am not wanting for much and honestly i am one of the biggest lens whores around. I come from 4 years of leica only glass. I did not step down at all and if anything my images hold up much better. The other issue not even discussed is the Phase Backs and using C1 which is a awesome combination. Sure i could shoot the Hassy H2 but i am locked out of there 28mm and that does not sit well either with me. I understand not wanting to buy a certain system no question. I would not touch a Sinar with a 10 ft pole myself . Frankly you only have a couple choices here and every system there is some compromise to it and features you wish you had or wish had the same from another system. I shoot a lot of many different things and the Mamiya system works for me , could it be better. Absolutely no question but so can Hassy, Sinar and leaf systems. There is no true winner here, you need to find a system that does almost everything you need with the compromises that come with it. But saying Mamiya glass is inferior is not a true statement and there are many users out there that do very well with it.


actually the D lenses are more expansive as their hc counterparts.  phoenix - i would love to have some margaritas at the barrio cafe right know
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 27, 2008, 09:13:59 am
Well the 28D and 150 D are not cheap for sure, not sure on Hassy prices. BTW some great Mexican food here, must visit sometime.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Jack Flesher on December 27, 2008, 12:56:33 pm
Quote from: Guy Mancuso
But I think MF has a future even in these tough economic times we will have to see who survives, what mergers happen, shared technology happens or just closes there doors. I am just going to sit back and see what develops

I suspect we will soon -- as early as the end of 2009 -- be left with just two companies in the MF playing field as far as backs are concerned.  I think the market (demand) simply isn't large enough to support them all (supply), and with the proliferation of sub $3,000 20+ MP DSLR's, the MF DB market will be hit hard...
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: mcfoto on December 27, 2008, 01:54:35 pm
Quote from: Jack Flesher
I suspect we will soon -- as early as the end of 2009 -- be left with just two companies in the MF playing field as far as backs are concerned.  I think the market (demand) simply isn't large enough to support them all (supply), and with the proliferation of sub $3,000 20+ MP DSLR's, the MF DB market will be hit hard...

Hi Jack
Question, when you say two MF backs left? Who?
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 27, 2008, 02:11:39 pm
It's a good question. Let's look what already has happened Sinar and leaf have agreed on shared technology, read into that what you will or believe. Hassy has significantly cut prices by as much as 10k just on the H39 and lowered the H31 considerably. Phase and Leica have agreed to some terms on the S2 that one still is in negotiations and no one really knows what that will mean yet. Than look at what mostly has come out new P65 Plus coming H50 coming leaf announced a couple new formats, Sinar had a couple new entries there 65 and tech camera. I know i maybe missing a few things but does not matter , what does matter is things are going on and the market is shrinking. Plus you do have the Sony A900, Canon big gun and the Nikon D3X all nipping at the tails of MF. Than on top of that Leica S2 coming in the summer and rumors of Nikon jumping in. Plus we have no idea what is going on behind closed door meetings within each company and there survival for 09 plans. How to gain market share in tough economic times and where does the cash flow come from. How and who to layoff or not. Bottom line i don't care what anyone says and if anyone does it will be spin anyway. There has to be and will be some shakeups with all of them and there simply is no way of getting around it. I think a lot of parent companies will say enough is enough too and let them slide off there game plan. If shareholders get no value than heads will roll and something will have to be done. i did the corporate thing for 16 years and bottom line above all else is shareholder value . If there is none they will find a way to find it and that is not a good thing. Reason i said i am sitting back and watch what happens.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: jing q on December 27, 2008, 02:32:44 pm
Quote from: Guy Mancuso
And the Phase One body focal plane shutter does 1/4000th . Pick your poison. The high sync is what some may need and the higher shutter is what others may need. Rather have the faster shutter myself. I have gotten around the high sync shutter for years and have much more need for the higher shutter speed. Horses for courses, pick what systems works best for you.

I personally would not switch systems because of the glass. I would switch or chose a system because of features , ergonomics, ISO limits, different types of lenses, T/S, software and stuff like that. Obviously if you need something one system has over the other than that would come into play and price of course. Each system does a nice job of producing results , just find one that clearly gives you as the shooter more advantages over another on how you work and what you shoot.

considering my retouchers end up using ACR to deal with all the files in the end, and having seen numerous files go through different raw convertors, I'm more or less convinced that ACR does a good job most of the time (just a matter of tweaking each profile to suit your taste)

When it comes to ISO, the only thing I know is that MF is crap at anything above 200. So it doesn't make a difference.
hasselblad seems the only one with a proper delivery plan on their stuff. I don't really have time to sit around waiting for imaginary lenses to come out.

basically if a Mamiya is starting to cost as much as a Hassy in terms of their lenses and bodies ($4000 for a mamiya body? get real...), it makes more sense to choose the more responsive, more easily rentable system.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Jack Flesher on December 27, 2008, 02:42:37 pm
Quote from: jing q
it makes more sense to choose the more responsive,

FWIW,  at present Mamiya has the shortest shutter lag of all the MF systems. Its AF is on par with or faster than Hassy, both of which are faster than any of the other competition...
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Jack Flesher on December 27, 2008, 02:43:58 pm
Quote from: mcfoto
Hi Jack
Question, when you say two MF backs left? Who?

If pushed into a corner, I would bet on Phase and Hasselblad...  
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: bcooter on December 27, 2008, 02:50:01 pm
As far as finding a medium format camera in rental around the world in almost any market, first would be a hasselblad h body (probably with a phase back, with leaf  a distant second) and then a few places will have Mamiya's afd 1's or 2's but very few AFDIII's if any.

I understand the Mamiya III is better, but it had nowhere to go but up so I don't now if that means that much.  It's still a work a progress as firmware updates  requires the camera has to be sent into service and shutter lag is still present, lenses and right angle grips are still waiting and it has a non removable viewfinder.    It makes the Contax with Zeiss lenses look like a modern system and be realistic you can buy two Cotnax's and lenses for the price of the new Mamiya's and forget about rentals.

In regards to the Leica S2 other than the bling factor (and the red dot does has that), it makes no sense to me.  I don't see what it does that a Contax with a P30+ will do for probably 1/2 the price, or for that matter a Hasselblad 31mpx III for probably less price also.

I know Leica is relying on tradition but with digital capture tradition is gone out the window and you would have thought that since Leica was starting with a clean sheet of paper they would have articulating lcd's, an evil finder, added video, cmos sensor and higher iso, because as it stands it's just another smaller medium format camera with good glass and low iso which means it's going after a niche in a already niche market.

I wish Leica luck, but compare to the S2 the Nikon D90 is space age in comparison.  

In regards to Dalsa vs. Kodak chips and which one is more "film like", I find all of this urban myth.  I've owned three Dalsa sensor mfdb's and three kodak sensor backs and depending on the convertor can pretty much move the files in any direction I want.  Actually I see more innovation in 3rd party processors than I do medium format cameras and if the Hasselblad has any real issue it's their ever moving file format that first must go through their software before it goes into a 3rd party processor.  I don't know who Hasselblad has been talking to, but on a professional level, every photographer that works with a retoucher has to send some form of raw file (even if the processed tiff accompanies it) and nobody has the time to explain to a retoucher how to download phocus of flexcolor, learn it and work it or go through the extra step of producing dngs.

Regardless of the topics in these forums, the only standard in the digital capture world is photoshop and if you can't process a file directly into cs2, 3 or 4 then your one step back.

Recession or not, medium format needs to get rolling to survive and deliver their product quickly.  This last photokina was a buzz kill.  Leaf announced a rotating sensor because for some reason they can't get their back to rotate on the hy6 though they finally figured a way to tether and see a preview on the lcd and the computer, though this does nothing for the previous Leaf owners, Phase announced alliances with Leica though what that means nobody knows and a full frame sensor hooked to a 2.2" lcd that is still in the league of 2001 cell phone quality.   Hasselblad at least announced price cuts though I would have hated to have been the guy that just dropped $27,000 on a hdIII only to see it go to ten thousand less the next week and the only real announcement of substance with the 31mpx Sinar that promised a good lcd, in camera jpegs and a revolving back but since announcekina they have gone quiet on all fronts.

In other words no medium format company gave us a "must"reason to sell our digital backs for the newest ones and still clings to the theory of proprietary systems.  Why every medium format back won't work on every medium format camera is beyond understanding given the small size of the market.  Imagine how much more use you could get out of your Phase of Leaf back if you could snap it onto a H system, or an RZ, a Sinar Artech, a Contax and an HY6 just by changing the mounts and pushing a button.  Instead it takes a twenty page schematic to understand what back works with what camera.

I don't know a photographer that isn't planning to buy some kind of new dslr, though the flip side to this I don't know a photographer that plans on buying a new medium format back if they shoot anything that moves.  (though I am sure they are out there).  

Since photokina Sony and Nikon have announced and shipped 25mpx dslrs that have double the features of medium format for 1/2 the price of the cheapest medium format,( actually 1/4 of the price with the sony) and I don't think anyone believes this is the end of dslr development as there are already rumors of 30mpx dslrs coming out next year.

From this day on, the world of cameras is gong to have to stop this constant incremental upgrade system and go balls out to produce the best and most featured product they can.  Even the Japanese companies keep messing with their customers.  Canon gives us a 5dII with video though locks out the manual functions, Nikon a 25mpx dslr without video and Sony a new camera without live view and slow focus.  Since all of these companies have the expertise to probably make a real killer cam that shoots full frame video, 30mpx stills, a variable frame size and can climb to a real 1000 iso (whatever iso is), gives most professional photographers the impression that whatever we buy today will be worth pennies in a few years, probably less.

If you asked me today what I would rather spend $30,000 on to invest in my business, cameras of any format would be way down the line.  

The one company that can break this silly cycle is RED though I know mentioning RED on this forum gives some of the purists cardiac arrest, (btw: how can anyone consider themselves a "purist" in the digital age?)  

If RED can meet 1/2 of their promises and deliver without issue then they will move the industry to finally give us a modular system that has long term use and go from the business model of buying a camera we would like to own, vs. a camera we have to own.


Edit: Unlike some I would never predict on an open forum the demise of any company , camera or otherwise.  As a professional we want and need to them all to survive and I think medium format has a place, I just wish they would step back from the knee jerk reaction of tradition and really see where the photography market is going.

As a photographer, we are required to shoot more per day day, quality and quantity, more setups, more variations and every penny we spend is scrutinized so every penny we invest must have a payback.

We must have excellent previews tethered and portable, we must have no glitches, jams or focus issues and as the market moves to video some part of the system will eventually need to be cross purposed for motion.   Our workflow needs to be faster, more flexible and easier to learn, use and produce.

I wish the camera companies would get out of the standard mold of loaning out cameras for seminars and reviews and really put them in the hands of working, hard hitting professionals.   Work in their cusotmers envrionment from pre production to finish and they would learn volumes and in turn probably get valid feedback that goes beyond shooting brick walls and trees and measuring the results at 200% on computer monitors.

Get feedback (Once again from pre production to finish out) from a photographer that doesn't want to take the shot, but must get the shot.  There is a big difference.

I want all of these companies to do well as some of the people I know personally, dealers, reps, designers, engineers and I know their hearts are in the right place, I just believe from my experience that they are not exactly in step with what a professional photographer's clients demand in the 21st century.

Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: free1000 on December 27, 2008, 03:05:05 pm
An example of an image, originated with Mamiya zoom (the longer one to 210mm, forget the short end because I rented it anyway)

http://www.paulfreeman.net/prwfreeman/imag.../landmarks.html (http://www.paulfreeman.net/prwfreeman/images/zooms/landmarks.html)

Although there is a lot of retouching and artwork, big ben's clock and the non-futuristic buildings are pretty much as shot. This is on AFD II with an Aptus 75. Its about 1/3 of the frame, and I don't think it was sharpened.

I think most people would be happy with the quality. Frankly I was amazed to get this from an inexpensive MF zoom lens.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: csp on December 27, 2008, 03:57:18 pm
Quote from: Jack Flesher
If pushed into a corner, I would bet on Phase and Hasselblad...



i see it the same way. only a company which can sell everything from lenses to backs has a chance to survive in the long run. considering the size of the market there are to many competitor. its nice to  have a lot of options
from a buyers standpoint but the drawback as we can see today is zero technology progress.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: ziocan on December 27, 2008, 04:34:27 pm
Quote from: Jack Flesher
I suspect we will soon -- as early as the end of 2009 -- be left with just two companies in the MF playing field as far as backs are concerned.  I think the market (demand) simply isn't large enough to support them all (supply), and with the proliferation of sub $3,000 20+ MP DSLR's, the MF DB market will be hit hard...
For sure the digital backs will have to be sold for the price they are really worth.
A 60mp back should be 12K maximum and a 22MP back should be 3K, all the other should fall in the middle.
They are not that sophisticated piece of hardware and software after all. At least not anymore for today standards.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 27, 2008, 04:36:04 pm
Quote from: GBPhoto
Why not? Are you talking about lenses? body? back? software? integration? support?


All of it to be honest. Let's just leave it at that. It just does not work for me on any level.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: mcfoto on December 27, 2008, 05:08:25 pm
Been an interesting year for us, shooting way more with the 1DsMKIII. I find the camera tethered bullet proof & it feels like the old EOS1 film camera I used for years. Last month I sold the ZD camera as it wasn't getting much use anymore. I still think the ZD camera was a good idea but needs a massive update. With the new Dalsa 48mp chip that is 36x48mm put that in this camera with a new 3" lcd & then get it to fire at 1.0 f/s. Drop FW 400 & get it ready for USB 3.0. Keep the price at about $7000.00 USD & it could work. To do so Phase would have get on board. Just a dream & I really doubt this will happen. The Leica S2 doesn't make sense with a 30x45mm sensor. Or better yet Mamiya could go to RED & use there 42x56mm CMOS sensor that is coming out in 14 months on the new 9K camera that takes the Mamiya 645 mount. We are keeping our Mamiya kit & will continue to rent the Aptus & will look to see on eBay the price of Aptus 75s backs. Be interesting to see what Leaf does with the new Dalsa 48mp chip?
Denis
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: EricWHiss on December 27, 2008, 08:29:47 pm
Quote from: GBPhoto
Why not? Are you talking about lenses? body? back? software? integration? support?

Most likely he never even used it. He and Jack run a workshop for mostly amateurs  - one of which had a Hy6 who had trouble with it but later admitted it was user error.  Guy and Jack have attacked Sinar and the Hy6 ever since.  Might also be worth noting that CI representatives attended their workshops and they don't sell the Sinar stuff since they sell Phase stuff and of course Mamiya.  I'm not saying either one is better than the other, but if you bother to read their forums - then the bias will be clear.  One poster there had to go through 3 mamiya lenses to get a good one and had a camera body problem too all of which were laughed off,  but even minor problems with the sinar (if they were not all user error) were latched onto like a pit bull and will likely be carried forward until CI or whichever their favorite vendor decides to sell them.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Jack Flesher on December 27, 2008, 08:56:44 pm
Quote from: EricWHiss
Guy and Jack have attacked Sinar and the Hy6

Uh Eric, please point to any single post where I have "attacked" Sinar.  IOW put up or retract, and then shut up.   And in the future leave me out of your private little pissing match.  

(Note there was also a certain Sinar rep that *claimed* I attacked Sinar, but he never showed any post to that effect either...)
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 27, 2008, 09:37:08 pm
Quote from: EricWHiss
Most likely he never even used it. He and Jack run a workshop for mostly amateurs  - one of which had a Hy6 who had trouble with it but later admitted it was user error.  Guy and Jack have attacked Sinar and the Hy6 ever since.  Might also be worth noting that CI representatives attended their workshops and they don't sell the Sinar stuff since they sell Phase stuff and of course Mamiya.  I'm not saying either one is better than the other, but if you bother to read their forums - then the bias will be clear.  One poster there had to go through 3 mamiya lenses to get a good one and had a camera body problem too all of which were laughed off,  but even minor problems with the sinar (if they were not all user error) were latched onto like a pit bull and will likely be carried forward until CI or whichever their favorite vendor decides to sell them.


You believe whatever you want and i am sure you where told many things but yes i have used it on several occasions within my workshops and outside of them also. BTW It was NOT user error only and i never attacked the Sinar product except to say it does not work for me and i pointed out a few reasons why in the past other than that your full of crap. I have no bias towards anything except for products that work and BTW our workshop video is loaded with Sinar and Sinar Bron gear in it so again get your facts straight before you slander and attack good people in this industry, take your personal shit outside. Your post here is considered slander and it hurts peoples good name and there business. Besides that most of it is all lies. You have no facts about anything just assumptions. BTW we have leica also support our workshops and Leaf wants to also, Sinar did in our lighting workshop along with Profoto and we receive not one nickel for it. So what's your beef , most workshops and schools have support from vendors. I suggest you get your facts straight before you assume anything otherwise stay out of peoples business when you don't belong in it.
Here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXkUl2sMg6g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXkUl2sMg6g)
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 27, 2008, 10:08:23 pm
Eric this is one of your posts . Care to retract your comments

Yeah, maybe if Thierry came to the US, I'd actually be able to test a sinar back. So far all my efforts have been futile as the only one dealer nearby, Calumet San Francisco, just seems to not care about Sinar. Even when I have made appointments weeks in advance specifically to view and test the Sinar Hy6, they have not managed to have it there or ready, or have "forgotten" to charge the batteries. But they always seem to be ready with the Leaf or Phase backs and even willing to let me take one to my studio for a day or two. Why does Sinar get the cold shoulder? Thierry I know you would fix this were you here!



Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: jing q on December 27, 2008, 10:39:38 pm
agree with bcooter
so I'm expected to pay for Hasselblad prices for a Mamiya system that wants to be on par with a hasselblad.
EXCEPT
That the only Hasselblad quality items this Mamiya has so far is the 28d, 45d, 80d and 150d, and the rest of the lenses are still pretty old and sometimes suspect and feel like pieces of plastic.
If mamiya released a whole upgraded system of lenses and accessories that were befitting of the price tag they were trying to go for that would be good, but they seem confused at the moment.

yes Mamiyas are hard to find in rental houses these days.Find me a rental house that's renting AFDIII. And if these cameras are not getting into the hands of professionals then the only impression they're getting of mamiya is the AFDII which has its share of problems.

Also, it's been a very very very rare occurance where I have to shoot 1/2000th of a second on ANY camera I've ever used.
I guess you're lucky to get that much light where you are, but chances are if you're shooting landscapes you're stopping down and if you're shooting people you would be scrimming and flagging to soften such a harsh light in the first place.
I would be so happy if I could even hit 1/400th of a second in the kind of work I do outdoors.


Quote from: bcooter
As far as finding a medium format camera in rental around the world in almost any market, first would be a hasselblad h body (probably with a phase back, with leaf  a distant second) and then a few places will have Mamiya's afd 1's or 2's but very few AFDIII's if any.

I understand the Mamiya III is better, but it had nowhere to go but up so I don't now if that means that much.  It's still a work a progress as firmware updates  requires the camera has to be sent into service and shutter lag is still present, lenses and right angle grips are still waiting and it has a non removable viewfinder.    It makes the Contax with Zeiss lenses look like a modern system and be realistic you can buy two Cotnax's and lenses for the price of the new Mamiya's and forget about rentals.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: EricWHiss on December 27, 2008, 10:59:39 pm
Quote from: Guy Mancuso
You believe whatever you want and i am sure you where told many things but yes i have used it on several occasions within my workshops and outside of them also. BTW It was NOT user error only and i never attacked the Sinar product except to say it does not work for me and i pointed out a few reasons why in the past other than that your full of crap. I have no bias towards anything except for products that work and BTW our workshop video is loaded with Sinar and Sinar Bron gear in it so again get your facts straight before you slander and attack good people in this industry, take your personal shit outside. Your post here is considered slander and it hurts peoples good name and there business. Besides that most of it is all lies. You have no facts about anything just assumptions. BTW we have leica also support our workshops and Leaf wants to also, Sinar did in our lighting workshop along with Profoto and we receive not one nickel for it. So what's your beef , most workshops and schools have support from vendors. I suggest you get your facts straight before you assume anything otherwise stay out of peoples business when you don't belong in it.
Here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXkUl2sMg6g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXkUl2sMg6g)

Wow! Touched a nerve did I?  But you have acknowledged the support from vendors - which is exactly as I suspected.    I'd suggest if you want more credibility to be upfront about those business relationships ( shall we assume that you also have support from Dale Camera (dfarkas) who sells leica stuff.

Guy aren't you the one that pulled out the plug on the what was it 1000 posts long thread called the Leica DMR bible on FredMiranda Forums in a fit of anger?  That couldn't have made you many friends. Is your reply here more thought out than that move was?
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: EricWHiss on December 27, 2008, 11:04:55 pm
Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Eric this is one of your posts . Care to retract your comments

Yeah, maybe if Thierry came to the US, I'd actually be able to test a sinar back. So far all my efforts have been futile as the only one dealer nearby, Calumet San Francisco, just seems to not care about Sinar. Even when I have made appointments weeks in advance specifically to view and test the Sinar Hy6, they have not managed to have it there or ready, or have "forgotten" to charge the batteries. But they always seem to be ready with the Leaf or Phase backs and even willing to let me take one to my studio for a day or two. Why does Sinar get the cold shoulder? Thierry I know you would fix this were you here!

No I don't feel the need to take anything back. That's an old post from long ago (what's the date more than 1 year ago?) and was more a problem with a single Calumet sales rep than anything with Sinar.   I receive  immediate replies from Thierry on my Sinar questions, but also got personal calls from Dave King at Sinar and Mark Mather after making those posts.     I still shoot with my Phase back and will consider Sinar/Hy6 as an option if I ever upgrade.  The files from the new sinar back with in camera DNG look very good and I think that will solve a lot of work flow issues.


Oh and thanks for deleting me on GETdpi -  I just went over there to do that and see you've beat me too it.  Been meaning to do it for a while now.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 27, 2008, 11:09:16 pm
Quote from: jing q
agree with bcooter
so I'm expected to pay for Hasselblad prices for a Mamiya system that wants to be on par with a hasselblad.
EXCEPT
That the only Hasselblad quality items this Mamiya has so far is the 28d, 45d, 80d and 150d, and the rest of the lenses are still pretty old and sometimes suspect and feel like pieces of plastic.
If mamiya released a whole upgraded system of lenses and accessories that were befitting of the price tag they were trying to go for that would be good, but they seem confused at the moment.

yes Mamiyas are hard to find in rental houses these days.Find me a rental house that's renting AFDIII. And if these cameras are not getting into the hands of professionals then the only impression they're getting of mamiya is the AFDII which has its share of problems.

Also, it's been a very very very rare occurance where I have to shoot 1/2000th of a second on ANY camera I've ever used.
I guess you're lucky to get that much light where you are, but chances are if you're shooting landscapes you're stopping down and if you're shooting people you would be scrimming and flagging to soften such a harsh light in the first place.
I would be so happy if I could even hit 1/400th of a second in the kind of work I do outdoors.


Depends on what you shoot of course , i do a lot of different types of work so it works in my favor. I agree Hassy is more well known in the rental houses and also in many retail shops. I actually almost went Hassy and I do like there system. Mamiya is improving and there D lenses are very good so is the price high but they work great. It is not the perfect system but none of them are . I do like a more DSLR feel though and the Hassy and Sinar do not have that type of feel to me. But i am certainly looking forward to a new body from Phase and or more updates that improve it more. I think Phase will be around for the long haul and I think Hassy will also, not sure on others and i don't follow them either. Some lenses feel like plastic like the 55mm for instance but it produces very well and used at 500 dollars that is pretty good. Try there 300mm 4.5 Af lens another sleeper. Very sharp and i shoot that wide open shooting runway at high shutter speeds. Like I said several times pick what works best . BTW you can buy a AFDIII overnight to your door, not cheap but they are out there if you really need them. i don't rent much in camera's myself but i know many do . If anything i will rent extra lighting but own the camera's. What i like the best of the system by far is the back and c1. And i could always switch to a H2 but I don't see that need .
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 27, 2008, 11:30:40 pm
Quote from: EricWHiss
Wow! Touched a nerve did I?  But you have acknowledged the support from vendors - which is exactly as I suspected.    I'd suggest if you want more credibility to be upfront about those business relationships ( shall we assume that you also have support from Dale Camera (dfarkas) who sells leica stuff.

Guy aren't you the one that pulled out the plug on the what was it 1000 posts long thread called the Leica DMR bible on FredMiranda Forums in a fit of anger?  That couldn't have made you many friends.


Eric what is your point, I never said we did not get support from vendors . Almost every workshop, school , class or seminar has vendors that come to them to give demo's . Every workshop that we have we tell the world who is coming to give those demo's. Look at any workshop , seminar and others and almost everyone has the support from Adobe, Apple , Canon, Nikon and many others. Honestly what the hell are you talking about. Michael has Phase on his upcoming workshop in Antarctica. Honestly what are you even talking about here. This is honestly a very weird comment. None of us get a penny for letting these folks come on our workshops or better yet come onto our forums. It is all voluntary on our part and there part for them to come. Don't believe me ask Mr Reichman. Your trying to make something from nothing, not working sorry


And what in the world does pulling my thread have anything to do with anything at ALL. What in the world are you talking about. Touched a nerve , when out right lies are being said . YES

Eric why are you attacking me , tell me what in the world did i ever say to you to get this stuff to begin with. Seriously this is very childish are you a working Pro that builds his business on his reputation. Tell me when did i go after your clients and tell lies about you or said something bad to your neighbor or what on a public forum say something bad about you.

Eric let me give you a little clue, i don't work for anyone and do not get paid by anyone other than my clients that pay me to shoot and people that attend my workshops.  So what is YOUR point trying to trash talk people .

Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 27, 2008, 11:33:35 pm
Quote from: EricWHiss
No I don't feel the need to take anything back. That's an old post from long ago (what's the date more than 1 year ago?) and was more a problem with a single Calumet sales rep than anything with Sinar.   I receive  immediate replies from Thierry on my Sinar questions, but also got personal calls from Dave King at Sinar and Mark Mather after making those posts.     I still shoot with my Phase back and will consider Sinar/Hy6 as an option if I ever upgrade.  The files from the new sinar back with in camera DNG look very good and I think that will solve a lot of work flow issues.


Oh and thanks for deleting me on GETdpi -  I just went over there to do that and see you've beat me too it.  Been meaning to do it for a while now.


I did nothing. Had no clue you were still even a member
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: mcfoto on December 28, 2008, 01:27:47 am
Quote from: jing q
agree with bcooter
so I'm expected to pay for Hasselblad prices for a Mamiya system that wants to be on par with a hasselblad.
EXCEPT
That the only Hasselblad quality items this Mamiya has so far is the 28d, 45d, 80d and 150d, and the rest of the lenses are still pretty old and sometimes suspect and feel like pieces of plastic.
If mamiya released a whole upgraded system of lenses and accessories that were befitting of the price tag they were trying to go for that would be good, but they seem confused at the moment.

yes Mamiyas are hard to find in rental houses these days.Find me a rental house that's renting AFDIII. And if these cameras are not getting into the hands of professionals then the only impression they're getting of mamiya is the AFDII which has its share of problems.

Also, it's been a very very very rare occurance where I have to shoot 1/2000th of a second on ANY camera I've ever used.
I guess you're lucky to get that much light where you are, but chances are if you're shooting landscapes you're stopping down and if you're shooting people you would be scrimming and flagging to soften such a harsh light in the first place.
I would be so happy if I could even hit 1/400th of a second in the kind of work I do outdoors.
Hi
I have shot with both the 120 lenses on the Hasselblad & Mamiya ( not the D lens ) & there about the same. Really you are comparing Fugi vrs Mamiya here. I have shot billboards with the old Mamiya 80mm lens along with the old 150mm, very sharp. Each to their own & there has been plenty of debate over Hasselblad vrs Mamiya over the years.
Denis
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: thsinar on December 28, 2008, 02:48:53 am
WOW!

Are you such sure of that?: shutter lag and fastest AF?

I see that such comments go on and on: are you trying to "brainwash"?

Thierry

Quote from: Jack Flesher
FWIW,  at present Mamiya has the shortest shutter lag of all the MF systems. Its AF is on par with or faster than Hassy, both of which are faster than any of the other competition...
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: thsinar on December 28, 2008, 02:51:44 am
Amen, Mr. Mancuso.

Thierry

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
It's a good question. Let's look what already has happened Sinar and leaf have agreed on shared technology, read into that what you will or believe. Hassy has significantly cut prices by as much as 10k just on the H39 and lowered the H31 considerably. Phase and Leica have agreed to some terms on the S2 that one still is in negotiations and no one really knows what that will mean yet. Than look at what mostly has come out new P65 Plus coming H50 coming leaf announced a couple new formats, Sinar had a couple new entries there 65 and tech camera. I know i maybe missing a few things but does not matter , what does matter is things are going on and the market is shrinking. Plus you do have the Sony A900, Canon big gun and the Nikon D3X all nipping at the tails of MF. Than on top of that Leica S2 coming in the summer and rumors of Nikon jumping in. Plus we have no idea what is going on behind closed door meetings within each company and there survival for 09 plans. How to gain market share in tough economic times and where does the cash flow come from. How and who to layoff or not. Bottom line i don't care what anyone says and if anyone does it will be spin anyway. There has to be and will be some shakeups with all of them and there simply is no way of getting around it. I think a lot of parent companies will say enough is enough too and let them slide off there game plan. If shareholders get no value than heads will roll and something will have to be done. i did the corporate thing for 16 years and bottom line above all else is shareholder value . If there is none they will find a way to find it and that is not a good thing. Reason i said i am sitting back and watch what happens.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: thsinar on December 28, 2008, 02:55:55 am
bcooter,

it is shipping.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: bcooter
... the only real announcement of substance with the 31mpx Sinar that promised a good lcd, in camera jpegs and a revolving back but since announcekina they have gone quiet on all fronts.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: thsinar on December 28, 2008, 02:59:20 am
There are some who are able to and give themselves the right to predict, obviously!

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: bcooter
Edit: Unlike some I would never predict on an open forum the demise of any company , camera or otherwise.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: thsinar on December 28, 2008, 03:06:21 am
Mr. Mancuso,

I am still here, as you can see, and still amazed at the way you have to "bring things up" and "inform" members of a forum.

Thierry

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
All of it to be honest. Let's just leave it at that. It just does not work for me on any level.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: thsinar on December 28, 2008, 03:25:39 am
Mr. Flesher,

I kindly but firmly ask you to stop immediately your "claims", together with your partner. We three know what we are speaking about, others are not interested. Facts are what they are and I have nothing to show to you or your partner, at least not here and in this place.

Leave this place a sane and professional one like it has always been, both of you.

Thierry

Quote from: Jack Flesher
Uh Eric, please point to any single post where I have "attacked" Sinar.  IOW put up or retract, and then shut up.   And in the future leave me out of your private little pissing match.  

(Note there was also a certain Sinar rep that *claimed* I attacked Sinar, but he never showed any post to that effect either...)
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: thsinar on December 28, 2008, 04:56:02 am
Quote from: Guy Mancuso
BTW It was NOT user error only...
Facts, Mr. Mancuso: again you do make claims of a product not working and do not want to give details to let the concerned person (me) answer. Exactly the same attitude when I asked for these very same facts for this very same case on your place. What did you do? You simply deleted my post and questions, explaining me privately that I have nothing to ask and you have not to justify your claims.

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
and i never attacked the Sinar product
 

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
I have no bias towards anything
 

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
You have no facts about anything just assumptions.
I have them, not just assumptions.

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
BTW we have leica also support our workshops and Leaf wants to also, Sinar did in our lighting workshop ...
I am sorry to deny this: Sinar did NEVER support your workshops, may be SBI with lighting equipment, but not Sinar. Be precise and get your facts, please.

Thierry

Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: csp on December 28, 2008, 04:56:18 am
Quote from: mcfoto
Hi
I have shot with both the 120 lenses on the Hasselblad & Mamiya ( not the D lens ) & there about the same. Really you are comparing Fugi vrs Mamiya here. I have shot billboards with the old Mamiya 80mm lens along with the old 150mm, very sharp. Each to their own & there has been plenty of debate over Hasselblad vrs Mamiya over the years.
Denis

fuji has a great reputation as lens maker.  the question is also what is the benchmark 22mpx, 31, 50...60 ?
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: csp on December 28, 2008, 05:12:06 am
Quote from: thsinar
Facts, Mr. Mancuso: again you do make claims of a product not working and do not want to give details to let the concerned person (me) answer. Exactly the same attitude when I asked for these very same facts for this very same case on your place. What did you do? You simply deleted my post and questions, explaining me privately that I have nothing to ask and you have not to justify your claims.


 


 


I have them, not just assumptions.


I am sorry to deny this: Sinar did NEVER support your workshops, may be SBI with lighting equipment, but not Sinar. Be precise and get your facts, please.

Thierry


is this the sinar fight club ?   the last battle ?
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: thsinar on December 28, 2008, 05:58:14 am
Quote from: csp
is this the sinar fight club ?   the last battle ?

???

Still 4 days left to take good resolutions for the new year.

When will some be able to stop writing such stupid posts?

Thierry
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 28, 2008, 07:39:20 am
Quote from: thsinar
Facts, Mr. Mancuso: again you do make claims of a product not working and do not want to give details to let the concerned person (me) answer. Exactly the same attitude when I asked for these very same facts for this very same case on your place. What did you do? You simply deleted my post and questions, explaining me privately that I have nothing to ask and you have not to justify your claims.


 


 


I have them, not just assumptions.


I am sorry to deny this: Sinar did NEVER support your workshops, may be SBI with lighting equipment, but not Sinar. Be precise and get your facts, please.

Thierry


Love how you add partial quotes and use them to your benefit. Bottom line I do not have to give my opinion or anything else on your product just like anyone else. This was not just one time with a Sinar product i had issues with, which you constantly keep referring too. I had plenty of play time with Sinar products that gives ME the impression i would not buy it with a 10 foot pole. Sorry i don't like it but you simply cannot accept that. Oh and your post that was deleted was against forum rules and yes i deleted it and no one saw it. But you fail to mention that to your friends in which you sent  PM's  too. Now those are the facts. You move on with your friends that obviously have a agenda. This is a classic example of it right here.

BTW yes it was Sinar Bron that supported our workshop. Since you represent Sinar i would never have them support anything i was involved with. So take your personal agenda outside this forum. I did not start this little Sinar thing on this thread and if i post i would not touch it with a ten foot pole do i not have the right to say that and left it at that. But you sure find a way to come to the Sinar rescue and make it all better and no one even mentioned your name. Bottom line I do not like the HY6 . Now if you can not accept that which i said all along than i am sorry . You want reasons for my comment than you will not get them, I see no point and i see no point in listening to you defend it. It's my opinion just like i don't like any other product, i don't like Speedotron or Canon either. Who cares.

No i will not leave this forum Thierry you are the one making a mess of it with your constant sales pitches.

BTW please lose my e-mail address i am tired of your notes, which just go to the junk box anyway. Have a nice day.

The End. Now can we move on to stuff that actually counts because this is boring and no one cares.


BTW i still have not seen a link in which Jack or I have said anything of merit against a Sinar product . Besides some random comments about not liking the controls or something there is none.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 28, 2008, 07:57:07 am
Quote from: thsinar
???

Still 4 days left to take good resolutions for the new year.

When will some be able to stop writing such stupid posts?

Thierry


Now do you not think that is not a insult to csp about writing stupid posts. To me and others you are saying he is stupid but this is not even directed at you. This comes from a person that works for Sinar a company rep. and i have seen this several times on this forum to tell people to shut up and stay out of your business. I find this very interesting that it is okay you directly insult people and people accept this as something that is okay.

 I will not comment any further on this thread in which i see no point defending my opinion on anything including anything i may have said or done. Time to move on and beyond this BS
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: thsinar on December 28, 2008, 08:27:20 am
Mr. Mancuso,

I do not insult a person but simply give my opinion about the value of a post from a member, little difference, if I am allowed to say this.

I put you on the task to find a single post, here or elsewhere, in which I have insulted somebody. Come on with it, if you can find it.

Thierry

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Now do you not think that is not a insult to csp about writing stupid posts. To me and others you are saying he is stupid but this is not even directed at you. This comes from a person that works for Sinar a company rep. and i have seen this several times on this forum to tell people to shut up and stay out of your business. I find this very interesting that it is okay you directly insult people and people accept this as something that is okay.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 28, 2008, 08:48:51 am
Quote from: thsinar
Mr. Mancuso,

I do not insult a person but simply give my opinion about the value of a post from a member, little difference, if I am allowed to say this.

I put you on the task to find a single post, here or elsewhere, in which I have insulted somebody. Come on with it, if you can find it.

Thierry


Not worth my time. I have a opinion on it also which is not related to yours as we can see. I see it as a insult.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: csp on December 28, 2008, 10:18:38 am
Quote from: thsinar
???

Still 4 days left to take good resolutions for the new year.

When will some be able to stop writing such stupid posts?

Thierry


i think you are a hypocrite and you behave like a kind of sinar police .  considering the amount of sales pitches you place here i would not be so sensitive.
 
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Jack Flesher on December 28, 2008, 10:56:12 am
Quote from: thsinar
Mr. Flesher,

I kindly but firmly ask you to stop immediately your "claims", together with your partner. We three know what we are speaking about, others are not interested. Facts are what they are and I have nothing to show to you or your partner, at least not here and in this place.

Leave this place a sane and professional one like it has always been, both of you.

Thierry

Mr. Sinar,

If "facts are what they are" then how come you have none to show where I was involved in "bashing" Sinar as you continually claim?  Yes, I have publicly stated my *opinion* that I personally did not like several things about the camera, and in the same thread even pointed out a few features I did like.  Ever since then however, you got hyper defensive and started your childish vendetta against me.    

I don't know why you have initiated this battle against me personally, but now one thing is pretty clear from other posts here --- folks are seeing right through your squalid sales-pitch motives...  I am curiously reminded of a rat swimming in an ocean whenever you post.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Robin Balas on December 28, 2008, 11:08:00 am
Quote from: Jack Flesher
Mr. Sinar,

If "facts are what they are" then how come you have none to show where I was involved in "bashing" Sinar?  

I don't know why you have initiated this battle against me personally, but now one thing is pretty clear form other posts here --- folks are seeing right through your squalid sales-pitch motives...  I am curiously reminded of a rat swimming in an ocean whenever you post.

Strange I and "some others" are seeing it the opposite way.
This thread should be closed and forgotten, it is not doing anyone any good.

Respect is something one earns, there isn't much "earning" going on here.
 
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: jing q on December 28, 2008, 11:16:13 am
yeah guys let's stop it now.
Would like more opinion on the actual thread topic.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: VanKou on December 28, 2008, 11:57:55 am
I started the topic with a valid question...I regret it turned out to be this way.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: Guy Mancuso on December 28, 2008, 12:39:27 pm
Quote from: VanKou
I started the topic with a valid question...I regret it turned out to be this way.


Me too but I did try and answer your question as best i could and if you have more be more than happy and try and help if you need any. I like the Mamiya glass and after shooting the P65 plus with it it reaffirmed any doubts i may have had with my lenses. Some are really good all around with build quality and optics some are older units that need a update like the 55mm but it does hold up very well. i think Phase and mamiya are working on doing that in the future. But the current D glass is very good and do not regret spending the extra money to get them but the 55mm and even the 35mm which i do have a good copy of that one as well do a really nice job on all there backs.  I have shot all of the Phase backs except the P20 and P21 and they all hold there own very well in the field. My favorite is the 150 2.8 D and than i do happen to really like the 28D and even with it 's slight softness way in the corners a little corner sharpness trick on it does a nice job and i did a important interior job with it and turned out really well. There 120 macro is also supposed to be excellent , i only tried it once but Jack owns it and it again did very well with the P65 sensor. Good luck on your decisions.

 I should add i am a big fan of the 300mm AF 4.5 and stupid me i sold it and now trying to buy it again. I did try it with the P65 also with Jack's copy and it did a stellar job at 300 yards away with holding detail.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: bcooter on December 28, 2008, 12:47:40 pm
Quote from: mcfoto
Hi
I have shot with both the 120 lenses on the Hasselblad & Mamiya ( not the D lens ) & there about the same. Really you are comparing Fugi vrs Mamiya here. I have shot billboards with the old Mamiya 80mm lens along with the old 150mm, very sharp. Each to their own & there has been plenty of debate over Hasselblad vrs Mamiya over the years.
Denis


I don't doubt the mamiya lenses aren't sharp I guess most modern lenses are sharp, even sigmas, but in the realm of medium format, rightly or wrongly the mamiya afd was always condsidered the bargain basement medium format camera and it was the tactile feel and build quality of the lenses, the body and the grinding noise of the autofocus that gave it that reputation.

It also didn't have that stellar of a reputation in rental departments and once medium format went autofocus the first two choices were Hasselblad, Contax with Mamiya a distant third.

Now that it is reskined and reworked as a Phase and Mamiya III, with a few new lenses it's improved but if it moves to Hasselblad H prices what's the point, given the fact that H series cameras are backed up in rental everywhere and you don't have to look to hard to find a good used H1 H2.

Where have all the professional cameras gone?  From 5 or 6 years ago we had probably a dozen or so cameras with another dozen or so models in the professional ranks and now were down to what 4 or 5 with the hasselblad, Rollei HY6, Mamiya, Canon and Nikon.  

Has Canon and Nikon just devoured the professional market leaving the rest to pick up the crumbs or has digital just leveled the field where the difference between the 645 sized cameras and 35mm is just not that great.

It is probably a combination of the two though I think the medium format digital companies had as much to do with snuffing their own market as Canon did, because with every medium format camera system there are always as many questions as answers.  Where's the lenses, what's the date for for finders, right angle grips, and most importantly what's the price, the real price, not the call your dealer and negotiate price.

While medium format struggles to answer and ship the two main 35mm companies just keep pumping out new product and putting it on camera store shelves worldwide.  You can buy a Canon or Nikon anywhere in the world, usually for a good price, but try to find a medium format back with a specific mount and unless your in NY, LA or London, the option of walking in and buying what you want goes down quickly.

There is one camera store I frequent a great deal.  It's not the biggest, actually just a one counter store, though they sell product like water and I've never gone in when they aren't busy and even during these tough retail times had their best black friday in 10 years.   I've asked them why they don't sell medium format or even the leicas and they said they're just too expensive, complicated and require too much investment for the return.  If the backs were more universal they would still carry medium format cameras, but today it doesn't work that way.  A pentax 6x7 is just a paperweight, a RZ 67 with a digital back turns the viewfinder into a postage stamp and Hasselblad, the HY6, even certain elements of the Phase/Mamiya are proprietary to the back/camera so the days of buy your camera first and chose your specific film are gone.

It makes you wonder if there were Kodak and Fuji digital backs, that costs $5,000 instead of 12 to 30 thousand dollars and worked on any medium format camera, that segment of the market wouldn't still thrive but the toothpaste is out of the tube, the contracts and strategic alliances have been signed and those days of buy your camera and pick your film are gone.

In medium format the tail wags the dog.  The back makers have taken control over the cameras and limiting any options has not done the medium format market any good.

Bronica, fuji, Pentax and Contax stopped medium format production and it didn't make Hasselblad or Mamiya wealthy it just limited the  medium format market overall.

So back to the original thread of can a Mamiya lens resolve 39mp.  Sure and so can most cameras, even out of production contax, but the issue isn't the cameras or the lenses, the real question is what digital film do you use with them and no matter what anybody says, there are only two digital films, Kodak and Dalsa.  The rest is just the packaging, contracts that limit the sensor shape and slight packaging variations of the same theme.

When I started digital capture and we struggled through the learning curve of icc proviles, proprietary software, updating os systems, calibrating monitors, leaning DAM, storage, backups and working files to try to mimic some kind of film look, late one night my studio manager looked up at me under a pile of prints, hard drives and calibration tools and said, you know someday we're gong to look back at a $15 roll of film and laugh at how cheap, easy and most importantly how much fun film photography was.

I am beginning to believe he was right.

Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: david o on December 28, 2008, 01:25:28 pm
Quote from: bcooter
When I started digital capture and we struggled through the learning curve of icc proviles, proprietary software, updating os systems, calibrating monitors, leaning DAM, storage, backups and working files to try to mimic some kind of film look, late one night my studio manager looked up at me under a pile of prints, hard drives and calibration tools and said, you know someday we're gong to look back at a $15 roll of film and laugh at how cheap, easy and most importantly how much fun film photography was.

I am beginning to believe he was right.

hope so sometime
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: thsinar on December 28, 2008, 02:51:54 pm
Your absolute right to think so.
But you should come out with your real name, instead of hiding behind 3 letters and then only criticizing some people here.
That would be much appreciated.

Thierry

Quote from: csp
i think you are a hypocrite and you behave like a kind of sinar police .  considering the amount of sales pitches you place here i would not be so sensitive.
Title: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?
Post by: ziocan on December 28, 2008, 03:49:33 pm
Quote from: bcooter
rst and chose your specific film are gone.

It makes you wonder if there were Kodak and Fuji digital backs, that costs $5,000 instead of 12 to 30 thousand dollars and worked on any medium format camera, that segment of the market wouldn't still thrive but the toothpaste is out of the tube, the contracts and strategic alliances have been signed and those days of buy your camera and pick your film are gone.

In medium format the tail wags the dog.  The back makers have taken control over the cameras and limiting any options has not done the medium format market any good.

Bronica, fuji, Pentax and Contax stopped medium format production and it didn't make Hasselblad or Mamiya wealthy it just limited the  medium format market overall.
Kodak began pretty well with the Proback, it was 17mp at about 10/11 grands and it was not bad for that time. If I well remember it was the only one that could take CF cards as well. Today it could be about 30mp at about 8/9 grands, maybe 7 grands. Why we could not get anything like that today?