Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: uaiomex on November 28, 2008, 05:21:48 pm
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Linking courtesy of TOP
http://www.anseladams.com/index.asp?PageAc...mp;Category=113 (http://www.anseladams.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=113)
Say using a 12 ink printer to produce archival digital prints from the Ansel Adams archives.
I wonder which printer/paper combo they're using
Anybody knows?
Eduardo
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Say using a 12 ink printer to produce archival digital prints from the Ansel Adams archives.
I wonder which printer/paper combo they're using
At the site they say they welcome questions so I emailed that question to them but haven't gotten a reply. It would be very interesting to know what combo they consider good enough to properly depict his B&W prints.
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I was just going to post about this same thing. My guess is a Roland FJ 540.
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Anybody else remember what Ansel's prints used to sell for in the 1960s at Best's Studio in Yosemite? He had a special series that he printed in large numbers (process described in "The Print") that he made himself (before he had assistants print them for him), 8x10s mounted, signed, numbered for $6 (that number again is: SIX dollars) each. Ah the good ol' days!
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They say that it has FOUR shades of grey. Unless you cheat and count the Matte Black (and this is being printed to something like Photo Rag Baryta or one of its competitors, so it's an F-type paper that uses Photo Black), I can't think of a twelve-ink printer with more than three. Medium grey, anyone? I would imagine that the AA Gallery is a bit too precise to count the unused Matte Black on a gloss paper (or does some printer actually use it as a fourth black - I'd think that wouldn't work - isn't Matte Black actually incompatible (won't dry) with glossy papers)?
-Dan
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well they say the printer includes 4 blacks, but don't say their prints use all 4 blacks. My guess would be an HPz, if on matte paper all 4 will be used, if on photo paper, just 3.
Tyler
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Doesn't the HP z use all four blacks when printing on photo/glossy papers? I thought I read that somewhere...
The HP inkset also seems to have the best archival ratings currently, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's what they chose.
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Doesn't the HP z use all four blacks when printing on photo/glossy papers?...
nope
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Anybody else remember what Ansel's prints used to sell for in the 1960s at Best's Studio in Yosemite? He had a special series that he printed in large numbers (process described in "The Print") that he made himself (before he had assistants print them for him), 8x10s mounted, signed, numbered for $6 (that number again is: SIX dollars) each. Ah the good ol' days!
I bought five of those prints in Spring, 1969, they were $10.00 at that time. I think it was at the Curry Gift Shop, was that Best's? They were on something like wire calendar racks. I remember that I had to come home early because $50.00 broke my vacation budget! Then I passed up another chance to pick some up cheap in 1972 elsewhere, duh! Sold them in the mid 80's for a lot more than $10.00 each, but nothing like what I could get today.
Wonder what Andrew Smith is selling those for now. Maybe I don't want to know.
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Doesn't the HP z use all four blacks when printing on photo/glossy papers? I thought I read that somewhere...
The HP inkset also seems to have the best archival ratings currently, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's what they chose.
Some matte media presets use the quad formation, not all. The gloss media presets only use the PK, MG, LG.
See the most recent PDF HP provides on their media presets and how to use them for Non-HP papers:
http://z3100users.wikispaces.com/file/view...per_6.0.0.8.pdf (http://z3100users.wikispaces.com/file/view/Z2100_and_Z3100_Working_with_other_commercially-available_paper_6.0.0.8.pdf)
halfway the document.
The HP Z3100 black and grey inks are the most neutral of the 3 manufacturers. With B&W images printed with the B&W mode or Color mode of the driver no other ink hues are used, not to neutralise the range, not to fill in the highlight tones with a composite cmY mix. Neutral remains subjective, the paper white has an influence and the user may prefer another "neutral". The B&W mode allows hue addition and in color mode a good profile that takes care of paper color and the tone range color will help too. In that case some other hues will take part too.
Nevertheless it gives the choice of a true quad print with some matte papers while using an 11 ink + 1 varnish printer.
Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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...
>The HP Z3100 black and grey inks are the most neutral of the 3 manufacturers. ... Ernst Dinkla
HP found the formula for "electrosteric" stabilization. See http://h10088.www1.hp.com/cda/gap/display/...7752_4000_100__ (http://h10088.www1.hp.com/cda/gap/display/main/gap_content.jsp?zn=gap&cp=1-315-374-392%5E27752_4000_100__) The traditional steric stabilization appears to be the cause of carbon warmth. The plain electrostatic stabilizations are simply not stable enough. So this hybrid approach is where we are going. HP got there first.
Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
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Talking about buying prints way back... I still have a big coffee table book put out by him in the mid 70's signed by him. I don't have the sleeve for it tho, that got destroyed in a move.
I think I paid $100 for it then. Something like half a weeks pay then.
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I bought five of those prints in Spring, 1969, they were $10.00 at that time. I think it was at the Curry Gift Shop, was that Best's? They were on something like wire calendar racks. I remember that I had to come home early because $50.00 broke my vacation budget! Then I passed up another chance to pick some up cheap in 1972 elsewhere, duh! Sold them in the mid 80's for a lot more than $10.00 each, but nothing like what I could get today.
Wonder what Andrew Smith is selling those for now. Maybe I don't want to know.
Bill, I was in the Smith gallery in Santa Fe last week - the Adams prints they were displaying were all priced at 50K +. WOW.
John E
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Still no word on what the AA brain trust chose for a printer?
Inquiring minds would love to know, just for grins.
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Not the Roland FJ 540. I have the bigger version the 640. One black, colours as per Epson 9xxx series.
The Roland D'Vinci is possible. That has the 4 blacks from Cone plus a bunch of colours
I'd guess at the HP though..
Cheers,
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
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Bill, I was in the Smith gallery in Santa Fe last week - the Adams prints they were displaying were all priced at 50K +. WOW.
Thanks for breaking my heart John! Last time I looked they had "Moonrise Over Hernandez" for $65K. The thing about the $10.00 prints was *most* of them were not hand signed.
Bet you anything those Adams prints are done on as "Epson Pigment Prints." That phrase has worked it's way into "acceptable list" of photo gallery parlance more than any other term relating to inkjet prints. Even the Smith gallery often has big $$$ prints on the wall with those words on the labels.
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they seemed to express concern over inkjet blacks which sounds like matte, so I doubt a Roland D'Vinci which is not optimized for the newer photo surfaces. Could also be this-
http://www.bowhaus.com/news/successstory.php4 (http://www.bowhaus.com/news/successstory.php4)
which uses 12 ink Canons and rumored to work well on photo surfaces. Or the mentioned HP, which looks good on some of the new baryta photo surfaces with it's gloss optimizer
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/ (http://www.custom-digital.com/)
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They could be running an all-black inkset in a printer too, so really, it's all speculation. My guess is that they will keep it a secret, as that would be a pretty strong (unpaid) endorsement for whatever company's gear they use.
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Just as interesting as to what paper and printer they are using is the question of who is scanning the negatives (I assume that's what they are doing) and who is working on them in photoshop and actually doing the printing? As far as I know, the family has always worked with his former assistants in putting together any new products. I wonder if that is still the case?
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They're scanning the PRINTS (it's described on their site), which makes sense due to AA's skill as a master printer - if they scanned the negatives, they'd have to find an artist who could duplicate in Photoshop what he did in the darkroom.
-Dan
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Reading the technology paper:
Most speculative part of this message. The original prints are scanned/photographed with one of the Multi Spectral systems for art reproduction. They mention only three available in the US and Cruse scanners are more widely distributed. The institutes using them are mentioned and AA has one system according to their paper. There are more Multi Spectral systems worldwide though. Using that to scan and make B&W prints afterwards isn't so stupid as it seems. The several layers of spectral separations will show what was intended and what time did to the prints they scanned.
A European variant of that technology: http://www.lumiere-technology.com/index.htm (http://www.lumiere-technology.com/index.htm)
BTW, a crude translation of MS scanning (two fluorescent lamps with different spectra, two scan passes) is used in the cheap HP A4 scanners G4010 and G4050, Image Engineering measured their color precision and concluded that it works compared to other consumer scanners. Slow scans though.
http://digitalkamera.image-engineering.de/...er_Color_Re.pdf (http://digitalkamera.image-engineering.de/images/sites06/original/Test_Report_Scanner_Color_Re.pdf)
The printer will be a Z3100 and printing on HP's Baryte Satin Art, HP gives a >180 years estimation for it (HP figures, not yet Wilhelm).
see:
http://h10088.www1.hp.com/cda/gap/display/...5083_4000_100__ (http://h10088.www1.hp.com/cda/gap/display/main/gap_content.jsp?zn=gap&cp=1-254-257-323^25083_4000_100__)
The AA page says: This is a heavy paper that mimics the look and feel of gelatin silver paper. And refers to >180 years somewhere else.
The speculation that it is using the 4 B&W inks may be false though, on that paper it will be PK, MG, LG.
Constantly self calibrating, 12 color, 4 gray inks etc is used for the printer's description.
Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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They're scanning the PRINTS (it's described on their site), which makes sense due to AA's skill as a master printer - if they scanned the negatives, they'd have to find an artist who could duplicate in Photoshop what he did in the darkroom.
This then begs the question: what size prints were scanned? I wouldn't want to buy a "replica" larger than the original.
I saw several of his exhibits over the years and don't recall anything larger than a 20x24, with the majority being 16x20.
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The printer will be a Z3100 and printing on HP's Baryte Satin Art, HP gives a >180 years estimation for it (HP figures, not yet Wilhelm).
Has anyone had a chance to compare HP Baryte Satin Art to Harman FB Al, Hahnamuhle Photo Rag Baryta or Hahnamuhle Fine Art Baryta?
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Has anyone had a chance to compare HP Baryte Satin Art to Harman FB Al, Hahnamuhle Photo Rag Baryta or Hahnamuhle Fine Art Baryta?
I've tried the HP Satin Barite and the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Baryta. The HP paper seems ever so slightly smoother, but I like the texture of both. The biggest difference to me is that the Hahnemuhle paper is heavier and lays nice and flat after printing, which is not the case with the HP paper. I'm really happy with the Photo Rag Baryta.
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Has anyone had a chance to compare HP Baryte Satin Art to Harman FB Al, Hahnamuhle Photo Rag Baryta or Hahnamuhle Fine Art Baryta?
HP Baryte Satin has a reasonably subtle "stochastic looking" surface texture and a reflectivity that are essentially identical to that of Hahnemuhle's Photo rag pearl- which is no bad thing. The image quality is very high indeed, and I've even gotten really good oranges & reds on both these papers. Unfortunately, HP Baryte satin is just a bit too thin, and it tends to cockle (or develop ripples) under the inkload, especially with large prints that have a lot of dark areas. Hahnemuhle's various Photo rag variants are much thicker and more solid feeling in the hand, and hold up fine under the inkload.
Harman FB AI is quite different, with an extremely glossy surface texture. It tends to provide a bit more perceived fine detail, and d-max is fabulous, but I find it way too shiny and delicate for my photos, and the OBA load gives it a super-bright blue/white tone. Some people love it, though.
You may also want to check out Crane silver rag. It provides a d-max just as deep as Harman FB AI, without the supergloss finish. Hand feel is also nice, and it's a bit more resistant to scratches. The surface texture is a bit less pleasant than the photo rags, though.
I have some Hahnemuhle photo rag baryta on order; I'm hoping for a slightly better d-max than HP Baryte satin or photo rag pearl provide.
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Is this a clue?
Charles Cramer Workshops page on Ansel Adams Gallery: "many HP 9180s, an Epson 3800, and an HP Z3100"
Happy new year everyone!
Eduardo