Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: geesbert on October 20, 2008, 04:24:23 am
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i've seen the camera at Photokina behind glass and wasn't impresses, as it looked like a dummy
two days ago I've handled one at a Roadshow and it is working! you can even take pictures with it.
if Leica is not changing the design, I doubt this camera will get a lot of professional buyers.
it is beatifull, very heavy and well made, but it hardly has any physical contolls. Exposure compensation has to be done by menu, AE and AF seem to be non-separatable, this thing just doesn't have enough buttons! Michael R. will cry about not having a MLU button. I just wonder, how Leica manage to totally Ignore any test report about the M8, where 90% of the testers complain about not having an easily accessible EV-compensation.
I am sure the explored their market possibilities, but they probably are not targeting working pros.
They said it's released in about a year.
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what road show was that then? A Leica road show, showing off the S2? Already?
Dirk
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what road show was that then? A Leica road show, showing off the S2? Already?
There is a limited number of prototypes, so I would be surprised to see an actual roadshow. Probably prototypes are being shipped to major dealers and distributors to try to get some early feedback. There will be one at Meister Camera Berlin this Friday, for example.
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I expect to see & handle it at the PhotoPlus (http://www.photoplusexpo.com/ppe/index.jsp) this week.
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it was the Canon/Profoto Road show here in Munich.
Phase one was the as was Leaf, Adobe, a few others and Leica.
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it is beatifull, very heavy and well made, but it hardly has any physical contolls. Exposure compensation has to be done by menu, AE and AF seem to be non-separatable, this thing just doesn't have enough buttons!
Design over Functionality, young man. Repeat this mantra over and over and over. It must be pretty. It must be pretty sitting on the shelf, being worshiped, while the hoards crowd around it.
Remember too, when you're only shooting sunsets with it, you have plenty of time to scroll thru the endless Menus; so what's the problem?
Every camera has its demographic -- to the unhurried professional male, with his sweater tied around his shoulders, and his driving gloves on, the camera will be well-received.
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I agree. Not enough buttons. Also just one focus point as far as I could see.
Edmund
i've seen the camera at Photokina behind glass and wasn't impresses, as it looked like a dummy
two days ago I've handled one at a Roadshow and it is working! you can even take pictures with it.
if Leica is not changing the design, I doubt this camera will get a lot of professional buyers.
it is beatifull, very heavy and well made, but it hardly has any physical contolls. Exposure compensation has to be done by menu, AE and AF seem to be non-separatable, this thing just doesn't have enough buttons! Michael R. will cry about not having a MLU button. I just wonder, how Leica manage to totally Ignore any test report about the M8, where 90% of the testers complain about not having an easily accessible EV-compensation.
I am sure the explored their market possibilities, but they probably are not targeting working pros.
They said it's released in about a year.
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Design over Functionality, young man. Repeat this mantra over and over and over. It must be pretty. It must be pretty sitting on the shelf, being worshiped, while the hoards crowd around it.
Remember too, when you're only shooting sunsets with it, you have plenty of time to scroll thru the endless Menus; so what's the problem?
Every camera has its demographic -- to the unhurried professional male, with his sweater tied around his shoulders, and his driving gloves on, the camera will be well-received.
I don't understand the overuse of menus for controls like exposure comp. and I doubt that they would tie AE and AF together, but I will wait til the actual working camera or final specs are out before smear it as a rich wantabe fashion accesory.. It also sounds to me there is an existing axe to grind against leica with your remarks here and it is you who has issues, but maybe I am wrong and just over sensitive the the leica bashers. I find they make excellent tools and I enjoy them.. I would love to try this camera out, probably without driving gloves on.
I also find it amusing that there are those who are surprised that it is more than a concept camera and on its way to production..and btw I expect to handle the real deal by next summer not next fall.
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I would love to try this camera out, probably without driving gloves on.
I find that it appeals only to the driving glove crowd, in that, to go into any real shoot responsibly, you'd need a main body and a backup body, and the way I figure it, that's $54,000 USD in bodies alone, and that's before you even buy the first lens, and the tassles for the loafers.
Yet, I'm sure there is a market for this camera.
The other concern that I saw, at Photo East, was the sheer weight of the thing, and the lenses need their own Sherpa as well. Wouldn't want to carry a full system all day, but then, I'm sure that Lars wouldn't think of burdening himself with carrying it over his own shoulder. Sniff, sniff.
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I find that it appeals only to the driving glove crowd, in that, to go into any real shoot responsibly, you'd need a main body and a backup body, and the way I figure it, that's $54,000 USD in bodies alone, and that's before you even buy the first lens, and the tassles for the loafers.
Yet, I'm sure there is a market for this camera.
The other concern that I saw, at Photo East, was the sheer weight of the thing, and the lenses need their own Sherpa as well. Wouldn't want to carry a full system all day, but then, I'm sure that Lars wouldn't think of burdening himself with carrying it over his own shoulder. Sniff, sniff.
I guess you didn't read me.. I said it does appeal to me and I don't have driving gloves..but whatever, I will try your m.o., I guess it doesn't appeal to the mask wearing crowd.. how is that for a nice broad generalization based on few facts? Let's post on what we know from experience
and from my experience leica makes an excellent product period.. what is your experience? You thought it heavy? it is lighter than the hasselblad and hy6 afaik, and just slightly heavier than the canon mk3 dslr..50g's more.. you need a sherpa for that? .. and regarding price, please direct us all to your source for the undisclosed prices..no? so maybe the 2 bodies are not out of the question, for loafer wearing or birkenstock professionals alike.. but what would be so bad about backing up the system with the killer 5d2..with leica r lenses?, it should be sufficent for second string until the r10 comes out.
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I guess you didn't read me.. I said it does appeal to me and I don't have driving gloves..but whatever, I will try your m.o., I guess it doesn't appeal to the mask wearing crowd.. how is that for a nice broad generalization based on few facts? Let's post on what we know from experience
and from my experience leica makes an excellent product period.. what is your experience? You thought it heavy? it is lighter than the hasselblad and hy6 afaik, and just slightly heavier than the canon mk3 dslr..50g's more.. you need a sherpa for that? .. and regarding price, please direct us all to your source for the undisclosed prices..no? so maybe the 2 bodies are not out of the question, for loafer wearing or birkenstock professionals alike.. but what would be so bad about backing up the system with the killer 5d2..with leica r lenses?, it should be sufficent for second string until the r10 comes out.
Dr. Kaufmann said the price will be between 10,000 Euro and 20,000 Euro, and that they hope to keep the price below 15,000. I think he wouldn't say that unless he was almost positive that they could. That makes two bodies 30K, which is about $40K.
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Hi
A Store in Norway had a visit from Leica today, and I got to try out the S2.
It was obviously just a beta version, but still you got to see some of the features.
It looked promising.
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Hi
A Store in Norway had a visit from Leica today, and I got to try out the S2.
It was obviously just a beta version, but still you got to see some of the features.
It looked promising.
How did it compare to the objections noted here, like lack of an EV control?
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It was obviously just a beta version, but still you got to see some of the features.
It looked promising.
You guys and your dreams. Hope springs eternal.
Guarantee you it'll be in the same glass case, like an Untouchable, at this year's Photo East as well.
I want to pin the blue ribbon of courage on the first guy in line who writes the $30,000 check for a body and maybe a couple of lenses. And for Version 1.0 at that.
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The camera was fully functional. So the glass case is history.
It has already done several shoots in germany, and , according to the rep, suppose to out do some of the major competetors in todays marked.
"You guys and your dreams"? I`m never gonna buy this camera, its just fun to see another brand hitting the market.
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The camera was fully functional. So the glass case is history.
This should mean the camera is for real, listed at B&H
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5851...tal_Camera.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/585106-REG/Leica__S2_SLR_Digital_Camera.html)
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This should mean the camera is for real, listed at B&H
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5851...tal_Camera.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/585106-REG/Leica__S2_SLR_Digital_Camera.html)
I ordered a rollei xact2 bellow compendium from B&H, they had a nice picture.. after a couple months of endless phone
calls they finally admitted that no such item exists.. no explanation of why it was on their site..
so being on their website is not proof of anything..I have more faith in what leica says then the boys on the westside.
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I ordered a rollei xact2 bellow compendium from B&H, they had a nice picture.. after a couple months of endless phone
calls they finally admitted that no such item exists.. no explanation of why it was on their site..
so being on their website is not proof of anything..I have more faith in what leica says then the boys on the westside.
I think it was the Mamiya ZD that was listed as coming soon for like 6 months also...
B&H means nothing.
How the Dentist business doing these days during the crisis??
Seeing how they are the few that might be buying this camera.
Snook
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You guys and your dreams. Hope springs eternal.
Guarantee you it'll be in the same glass case, like an Untouchable, at this year's Photo East as well.
I want to pin the blue ribbon of courage on the first guy in line who writes the $30,000 check for a body and maybe a couple of lenses. And for Version 1.0 at that.
The camera will ship to dealers in September. And, if you'll be at the LHSA Annual Meeting in Seattle (Oct 7-11), you can try out a production S2 for a day yourself. Since Photo East is later in October, I'd think you'll see real cameras there as well.
David
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B&H is showing one review for S2.
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Design over Functionality, young man. Repeat this mantra over and over and over. It must be pretty. It must be pretty sitting on the shelf, being worshiped, while the hoards crowd around it.
Remember too, when you're only shooting sunsets with it, you have plenty of time to scroll thru the endless Menus; so what's the problem?
Every camera has its demographic -- to the unhurried professional male, with his sweater tied around his shoulders, and his driving gloves on, the camera will be well-received.
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On July 13th at Fotocare in NYC there will be a preview of the camera and system.....
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I agree with almost everyone that the S2 is a silly camera... but then again after looking at the specs and details- it looks like Leica is just raising the bar on Canon and Nikon dSLRs doing something similar that they did with the M6 versus the old 35mm SLRs...
giving a higher quality, more purposefully designed and pricier alternative to 35mm shooters- be they well-funded photojournalists, well-funded artists, well-funded collectors or well-funded fund managers.
I mean really, compared to Phase and Hasselblad, they are throwing down with higher quality hardware:
-Organic LED Screen and info display (wtf!)
-all metal construction
-lenses that are going to be uncompromisingly good
-Body AND lens shutter system (wtf!!!)
-Dust and Waterproof
I know almost no one needs all these things, but its impressive that someone is willing to step up and say "it can be done"
I think that's the biggest issue with MFDB imaging these days- a whole new world of potential after film, but very few companies that are daring and capitalized enough to make real advances.
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I agree with almost everyone that the S2 is a silly camera... but then again after looking at the specs and details- it looks like Leica is just raising the bar on Canon and Nikon dSLRs doing something similar that they did with the M6 versus the old 35mm SLRs...
giving a higher quality, more purposefully designed and pricier alternative to 35mm shooters- be they well-funded photojournalists, well-funded artists, well-funded collectors or well-funded fund managers.
I mean really, compared to Phase and Hasselblad, they are throwing down with higher quality hardware:
-Organic LED Screen and info display (wtf!)
-all metal construction
-lenses that are going to be uncompromisingly good
-Body AND lens shutter system (wtf!!!)
-Dust and Waterproof
I know almost no one needs all these things, but its impressive that someone is willing to step up and say "it can be done"
I think that's the biggest issue with MFDB imaging these days- a whole new world of potential after film, but very few companies that are daring and capitalized enough to make real advances.
The more I think about the Leica S2 and its strategy, the more I think that Leica is more or less ignoring the MF world, and just going after frustrated high-end DSLR users, photographers who want more IQ, better lenses, no AA filter, and maybe a leaf shutter, and are willing to give up something in AF speed, high ISO, and framerate to get there.
The MF world is a circus of confusion and partial incompetence, with broken or lacking software, comedic politics, broken promises, incomplete systems, missing bits, snail-pace development, sub-par performance of some components, and on and on. There really is nothing very much which anyone would want to emulate here, even from Hasselblad, which has a more coherent story than anyone else.
(Having said that, I enjoy my Contax 645 with Sinar e54 very much, but I am not a pro and don't have to shoot every day under pressure.)
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I for one hope it makes a go of it, though I too would be annoyed by having to slow down for menus rather than buttons and switches. But I want it to succeed not out of any love for Leica -- there is no dislike there either by the way -- rather, I want Canon and Nikon to come out with new mounts and lenses to accommodate sensors larger than the 35mm legacy size. Preferably modular systems, but not necessary. Leica, IMO, is showing the way.
And though I've seen a lot of flowery and/or pompous affectations over the years, and I'm not condemning any man who wants to show off like a peacock -- Lord knows I've been guilty -- perhaps the double period ("..") sentence endings are a little much?
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I agree with almost everyone that the S2 is a silly camera... but then again after looking at the specs and details- it looks like Leica is just raising the bar on Canon and Nikon dSLRs doing something similar that they did with the M6 versus the old 35mm SLRs...
giving a higher quality, more purposefully designed and pricier alternative to 35mm shooters- be they well-funded photojournalists, well-funded artists, well-funded collectors or well-funded fund managers.
I mean really, compared to Phase and Hasselblad, they are throwing down with higher quality hardware:
-Organic LED Screen and info display (wtf!)
-all metal construction
-lenses that are going to be uncompromisingly good
-Body AND lens shutter system (wtf!!!)
-Dust and Waterproof
I know almost no one needs all these things, but its impressive that someone is willing to step up and say "it can be done"
I think that's the biggest issue with MFDB imaging these days- a whole new world of potential after film, but very few companies that are daring and capitalized enough to make real advances.
"Lenses that are going to be uncompromisingly good" will do it for me.
Kevin.
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"The MF world is a circus of confusion and partial incompetence, with broken or lacking software, comedic politics, broken promises, incomplete systems, missing bits, snail-pace development, sub-par performance of some components, and on and on."
With this in mind, then, Leica should be a perfect fit into 'MF World' as some recent years exploits have shown.
The M8 and system comes to mind. In the three years since introduction they have finessed it into a pretty sweet camera and lens lineup but
for much of this time it was a camera crippled by problems and workarounds. The camera survived, and thrived, despite these troubles thanks, mostly, to an established rangefinder userbase that was willing to accept these shortcomings and defend the brand
with an almost rabid fervor.
Leica won't, I think, be able to count on these same individuals in the same numbers as the M8 launch to prop up a new S2, should it be flawed at launch (and there are no indications that it will be).
They will have to be winning over new users to the system and in this economic climate coming in with a very expensive niche product, with no track record, will be a very tough sell to create enough inertia to
propel the system forward.
I wish them well but, personally, I have my doubts. I think all available resources should have been put into pushing the M system development much further and faster. This is Leicas unique product in the photo market and to push
technology harder to solidify a full frame system and increase sales enough so that price per unit could be lowered would have made the most sense for Leica.
MT
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with prices for DMF going down down down (i get emails every day offering all makes and configurations at lower and lower prices....except for the P65 of course) it will come down to price....i am not sure there are enough leica freaks out there to support a complete line of lenses for this system...
i would love to see one, that finder alone should be what DMF should have been.....i agree this concept looks great but i am afraid it won't be able to compete with the high iso, handling, price and AF of DSLR....and..what? no HD video:)?
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.....i agree this concept looks great but i am afraid it won't be able to compete with the high iso, handling, price and AF of DSLR....and..what? no HD video:)?
I could not agree more with your fear but... The S2 is not a clear alternative for a MF system, it is a potential compromise for some users who do not often or ever shoot with technical or view cameras and who are therefore using one of the SLR style bodies such as the Phamiya, which IMHO is far too unrefined for the backs it serves.
If users are going to give up a few pixels and a few body options in order to get the smaller, neater, more refined S2 with its clever per-lens calibration systems, they will absolutely have to get DSLR quality AF (by which I mean Nikon not Canon) and an ISO performance that closely tracks a 5DII on a per pixel basis. No AA filter will mean that many people might have tolerance for a small shortfall in either of these areas but then again, you won't be able to just wake up one morning and say 'ooh, I think I'll pick up a fast long zoom at the store today'...
I really want the S2 to work. It is a brilliant and brave idea. Further, I wouldn't let the fact that the chips are stacked against it worry me too much: I had one of the first M8s and saw very many early 'aggressive non-adopters' eventually fall for its charms because in truth it's an excellent and unique product and Leica got it about right, despite the early brickbats!
Tim
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Anyone at fotocare yesterday for the demo?
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Here's a snapshot from my iPhone showing the AF-ON button (to the right of eyepiece) :
[attachment=15398:S2_AF_ON.jpg]
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I forgot to ask:
- how many actuations are the focal plane and leaf shutters rated at?
( e.g. Canon 1Ds3 is 300,000 )
- will firmware updates be via compact flash/SD card?
Perhaps David Farkas knows?
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Instead of their own proprietary design,
I wish Leica would adopt Canon's 5D2 battery or the same video battery Phase uses
both which are widely available and have very compact chargers.
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I want to ask a simple question: "Who unveils a product like this, and has a gig in a retail store, and yet does not even know the price it will sell for?" Somebody please answer that question for me. Don't you know, everyone walked out of Fotocare yesterday, maybe thinking "Yeah, it's a nice design", but when Version 1.0 of something in this price range is brought to market with that many unanswered questions, how can it succeed? Guarantee you, most everyone said, "I don't want to be first to write the check. Maybe in a year or two when it's proven track record and the bugs are worked out. Maybe I'll try to buy one used. Maybe in a couple years, when I sell a kidney to buy a second lens. Maybe some doctor will buy one and then get tired of it. Maybe, if the price is right."
Lots and lots of maybes. I just don't understand marketing in this style. Imagine walking into a Lexus showroom, and a new model is unveiled, and you ask the price, and they say, "We'll get back to you on that. Call us in a month". By the time that month rolls around, you've seen something else that's shiny, and you move on. I just don't get it. But nothing in that Leica hype mentality makes common sense. They sell them as "fashion/status accessories", not as cameras, to be used to make actual photographs.
The only guy excited about this Leica camera is that guy that runs Kurland Camera, because, guarantee you in two years, he's going to have those S2's lined up in those glass cases, with the lenses still in the leather pouches, unused, by every doctor on the East Coast, that sent him an email and said, "Ziss kamera is nice, but eets too heavy when I go skiing. Pleeze sell it for me and order me zat cute little 5D2, so I shoots veedio of my kids."
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I forgot to ask:
- how many actuations are the focal plane and leaf shutters rated at?
( e.g. Canon 1Ds3 is 300,000 )
- will firmware updates be via compact flash/SD card?
Perhaps David Farkas knows?
Billy,
I don't know this yet, but I will find out. Good question.
Regarding firmware, I'd assume that you would be able to use either CF or SD card to do firmware updates. Again, I'll check in to it.
David
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The only guy excited about this Leica camera is that guy that runs Kurland Camera, because, guarantee you in two years, he's going to have those S2's lined up in those glass cases, with the lenses still in the leather pouches, unused, by every doctor on the East Coast, that sent him an email and said, "Ziss kamera is nice, but eets too heavy when I go skiing. Pleeze sell it for me and order me zat cute little 5D2, so I shoots veedio of my kids."
It's a different world.
Even upper east side Doctors are feeling the pinch and pulling their kids out of their Soho Lofts and sending them to community colleges, Hip Hop Malibu folks are driving Toyota Prius' instead of gold trimmed Hummers . . . oh yea . . . and the new "professional" camera is now the 5d2.
I was shooting on location at this funky bar and grill frequented by photographers and art directors. (BTW: the bar section is the ONLY hangout for advertising folks and if you want to meet an Art Director, just go to the bar) and to a person everyone came over and asked, "is that the new five dee too?".
Somewhere on another thread here, I think the one that 's titled Hasselblad is better than Mamiya, but Mamiya is better than Chevrolet, and a Hasselblad person says, you can keep your old camera buy a new one and at a total costs of $49,000 actually save $10,000.
My eyes kind of jumped at those figures because I know I've spent that much in the past on those little black boxes but now the thought of buying a still only camera in the $30 to $40,000 price range just boggles the mind. It almost embarrasses me to think I spent that kind of money so I live in denial and try not to think about it. Like that time I got F*&^%d up in LA and had a bar tab of $2,700 because I yelled out, "drinks on me".
At this stage if I drop 40k, it better have a PL mount , come with a grip truck and have a focus puller named Big Donnie.
This Leica . . . who knows, but it is typical medium format stuff to have a show and not any real information in regards to price or usability.
I guess that worked back in the good ol' days of 2004, but today, I don't think so.
I think I know what the problem is. The Leica people get on Luthansa or Swiss Air and since the only free magazines are 4 year old Financial Times and The Economist, so they think those AIG bonuses are still flowing.
I suggest somebody hook those guys up to the internet and send them a URL to Yahoo News.
BC
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bc, which cafe are you talking about? i'd like to go ;-)
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bc, which cafe are you talking about? i'd like to go ;-)
Actualy send me a private e-mail and I'll answer.
BC
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I forgot to ask:
- how many actuations are the focal plane and leaf shutters rated at?
( e.g. Canon 1Ds3 is 300,000 )
- will firmware updates be via compact flash/SD card?
Perhaps David Farkas knows?
This month's LFI answer this for the leaf shutter: 100,000 images, which is actually 200,000 actuations of the shutter, given how leaf shutters work.
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Well, that's the minimum requirement in developement for the central shutter as far as I know, the focal plane shutter is just an ordinary Seiko-shutter also used in previous Leicas or Nikon (and Canon, too? Seiko adapts the shutters of course to the different requirements based on modules).
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Well, that's the minimum requirement in developement for the central shutter as far as I know, the focal plane shutter is just an ordinary Seiko-shutter also used in previous Leicas or Nikon (and Canon, too? Seiko adapts the shutters of course to the different requirements based on modules).
I am not sure that leaf shutters and MF focal plane shutters should be compared directly to Nikon shutters. They are much larger, bringing more stress. What is the MTBF for Hasselblad and Mamiya shutters?
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I could not agree more with your fear but... The S2 is not a clear alternative for a MF system, it is a potential compromise for some users who do not often or ever shoot with technical or view cameras and who are therefore using one of the SLR style bodies such as the Phamiya, which IMHO is far too unrefined for the backs it serves.
If users are going to give up a few pixels and a few body options in order to get the smaller, neater, more refined S2 with its clever per-lens calibration systems, they will absolutely have to get DSLR quality AF (by which I mean Nikon not Canon) and an ISO performance that closely tracks a 5DII on a per pixel basis. No AA filter will mean that many people might have tolerance for a small shortfall in either of these areas but then again, you won't be able to just wake up one morning and say 'ooh, I think I'll pick up a fast long zoom at the store today'...
I really want the S2 to work. It is a brilliant and brave idea. Further, I wouldn't let the fact that the chips are stacked against it worry me too much: I had one of the first M8s and saw very many early 'aggressive non-adopters' eventually fall for its charms because in truth it's an excellent and unique product and Leica got it about right, despite the early brickbats!
Tim
True I do on occasions need high iso and I have a few times needed fps speed, I only need AF because the lenses are so difficult to focus manually. What every picture I do take needs is sharp, sharp in the middle and decent in the corners. When I get that then maybe I'll start wanting the luxury of high iso and DSLR bells and whistles, right now I'll settle for sharp.
I hope the S2 does that and in the near future business gets back to normal so I can lay the cash down for it.
Kevin.
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unfortunately i foresee the end of leica. the s2 might be the last lung dart for this formerly great company. i cant imagine that this s2 story will have a good end.
for me its a pity, because i shot many years with leica gear and really loved their cams, at least the m line but also the r. but that was in the film days. their digital cameras never brought me on land again ,- and i think the s2 is in many ways beside the market. we will see and i hope i am wrong, but the whole story does not make sense to me, and less if i think to the features of the camera. it might be a nice dream that the focus will compete with a nikon or the iso with a canon and even if it would do i couldnt see the market for the camera. beside the extreme costs to develope a new platform and to update it in the future, how they will get these money back? how many customers will they need? i cant imagine it as i see todays market.
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unfortunately i foresee the end of leica. the s2 might be the last lung dart for this formerly great company. i cant imagine that this s2 story will have a good end.
for me its a pity, because i shot many years with leica gear and really loved their cams, at least the m line but also the r. but that was in the film days. their digital cameras never brought me on land again ,- and i think the s2 is in many ways beside the market. we will see and i hope i am wrong, but the whole story does not make sense to me, and less if i think to the features of the camera. it might be a nice dream that the focus will compete with a nikon or the iso with a canon and even if it would do i couldnt see the market for the camera. beside the extreme costs to develope a new platform and to update it in the future, how they will get these money back? how many customers will they need? i cant imagine it as i see todays market.
Leica should have just pressed harder to be just a lens maker. Find good deals, with Canon, Nikon or even Phase One to just make good lenses and they would be doing fine today, but no they really think they can bring the S2 and make it better than the competition. What a joke. The S1 did not work out and the same will happen with the S2. Just wait until all of you realize that Leica wants 25-35k for the camera and 2-3 lenses ...........
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I agree: Zeiss has reinvented itself nicely as a high-end third party lens maker, and as a lens brand label for japanese cameras.
The S2 is hobbled by a slow sensor, too slow for an SLR which is intended to be on the move, with a bigger sensor that needs at least F5.6 for depth of field. If Leica did a deal with Canon or Nikon and put in a fast sensor and multi-point AF, then their camera would be OK.
Edmund
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- How many 35mm-DSLR-users compromise their IQ because they don't want to handle a huge, slow MF-cam?
Except for high-speed press-photography, the S2 pretty much handles like a 35mm-DSLR
- How many MF-users would love a faster cam?
The S2 is about twice as fast regarding frame rate and handles much faster, too (processing speed) and has quite fast lenses, too.
- How many MF-users don't need technical movements? 70? 80%? 90%?
Most Hasselblad-users seem love their closed system and never put their back on an Artec or Linhof.
The sensor of the S2 represents the most advanced sensor-technology available. We already see it with the new Phase-backs - this is high-end regarding color reproduction, dynamic range and they're even quite usable without internal filtering and microlenses @ 800ASA - why should a camera with a Sony-CMOS be less noisy? The S2 will be the first cam using the new CCD-generation + microlenses and the lenses are better @ f2.5 than every C/N-lens for the smaller format. When they are able to integrate the Sensor+-like-technology, they could even gain 2 stops more.
You don't have HD-video or 5fps (it's just as fast as the D3x) but the highest fill-rate of those cameras - this is a camera for high-quality-prints, not the daily press-work.
I've handled the S2 on the Photokina and compared it within a few hours with Hasselblad, F&H, Phamiya and C/N. This camera feels like from another planet, somebody tries really to improve the game - not by adding more buttons, or HD-video but on the most substantial aspects: IQ and ergonomics. The biggest revolution since the first full-frame DSLR.
Leica was so often disappointed by their customers (that might sound strange, but look at R8, M5 and S1 - great cameras which were accepted much too late). I hope the internet is a game changer here, when people can see the first highres-shots with their own eyes and forget about all those ideas of Leica-lenses in front of their 5dII, D3x or A900 - this quality would have been impossible with those cams behind their lenses.
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- How many 35mm-DSLR-users compromise their IQ because they don't want to handle a huge, slow MF-cam?
Except for high-speed press-photography, the S2 pretty much handles like a 35mm-DSLR
- How many MF-users would love a faster cam?
The S2 is about twice as fast regarding frame rate and handles much faster, too (processing speed) and has quite fast lenses, too.
- How many MF-users don't need technical movements? 70? 80%? 90%?
Most Hasselblad-users seem love their closed system and never put their back on an Artec or Linhof.
The sensor of the S2 represents the most advanced sensor-technology available. We already see it with the new Phase-backs - this is high-end regarding color reproduction, dynamic range and they're even quite usable without internal filtering and microlenses @ 800ASA - why should a camera with a Sony-CMOS be less noisy? The S2 will be the first cam using the new CCD-generation + microlenses and the lenses are better @ f2.5 than every C/N-lens for the smaller format. When they are able to integrate the Sensor+-like-technology, they could even gain 2 stops more.
You don't have HD-video or 5fps (it's just as fast as the D3x) but the highest fill-rate of those cameras - this is a camera for high-quality-prints, not the daily press-work.
I've handled the S2 on the Photokina and compared it within a few hours with Hasselblad, F&H, Phamiya and C/N. This camera feels like from another planet, somebody tries really to improve the game - not by adding more buttons, or HD-video but on the most substantial aspects: IQ and ergonomics. The biggest revolution since the first full-frame DSLR.
Leica was so often disappointed by their customers (that might sound strange, but look at R8, M5 and S1 - great cameras which were accepted much too late). I hope the internet is a game changer here, when people can see the first highres-shots with their own eyes and forget about all those ideas of Leica-lenses in front of their 5dII, D3x or A900 - this quality would have been impossible with those cams behind their lenses.
do you work for leica?
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Rainer,
there are lot's of dentist,financial guys and lawyers that can't wait to put in their order.
That's really how Leica survived.
Lots of collectors as well.
Anyway, I wish them(Leica) luck.
Best,
Willem.
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And I'm sure Michael Reichmann will buy one too!
Best,
Willem.
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Leica was so often disappointed by their customers (that might sound strange, but look at R8, M5 and S1 - great cameras which were accepted much too late). I hope the internet is a game changer here, when people can see the first highres-shots with their own eyes and forget about all those ideas of Leica-lenses in front of their 5dII, D3x or A900 - this quality would have been impossible with those cams behind their lenses.
I had immediate and very extensive experience of this. I had one of the first M8s and pretty quickly produced a series of pictures of Venice with it which Leica then linked to from all their M8 website product pages in all languages. Those pictures showed that far from being blighted by IR issues etc, the camera was very nice indeed and in particular had glass that was not only sharp but lovely.
Over the eighteen months that followed that I fielded hundreds of emails from people who were doubtful or questioning and large numbers of them went on to purchase M8s precisely because they had access to a photographer who did not work for Leica and was clearly not in Leica's pocket. Also, during that time I identified and discussed some serious issues around focus shift of some key Leica lenses on the M8 but I nonetheless continued to use and recommend the camera. In fact the series of pictures, at http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/p834013227/h18d650ad#h18d650ad (http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/p834013227/h18d650ad#h18d650ad) is still generating emails and purchasers today.
So what you say is true. The internet very quickly gives doubters and newcomers access to high quality, independent information and when they have that, if the product is good, they reach for their wallets.
Tim
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Interesting comparison of sizes: Leica S2 versus Nikon D3x and Mamiya 645AF
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2009/05/leica-...-and.html#links (http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2009/05/leica-s2-side-by-side-with-d3x-and.html#links)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_xyB6bJuuc-0/ShBL...eb-BBB_0351.jpg (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_xyB6bJuuc-0/ShBL7v-KhAI/AAAAAAAAAig/HVGf6Te_ToM/s1600-h/Web-BBB_0351.jpg)
.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_xyB6bJuuc-0/ShBL...eb-BBB_0363.jpg (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_xyB6bJuuc-0/ShBLGOX3oaI/AAAAAAAAAiQ/d6v0JwwxWdg/s1600-h/Web-BBB_0363.jpg)
.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_xyB6bJuuc-0/ShBM...eb-BBB_0354.jpg (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_xyB6bJuuc-0/ShBMuvvMX1I/AAAAAAAAAjA/eJbdSR16kWE/s1600-h/Web-BBB_0354.jpg)
.
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- How many 35mm-DSLR-users compromise their IQ because they don't want to handle a huge, slow MF-cam?
Except for high-speed press-photography, the S2 pretty much handles like a 35mm-DSLR
- How many MF-users would love a faster cam?
The S2 is about twice as fast regarding frame rate and handles much faster, too (processing speed) and has quite fast lenses, too.
- How many MF-users don't need technical movements? 70? 80%? 90%?
Most Hasselblad-users seem love their closed system and never put their back on an Artec or Linhof.
The sensor of the S2 represents the most advanced sensor-technology available. We already see it with the new Phase-backs - this is high-end regarding color reproduction, dynamic range and they're even quite usable without internal filtering and microlenses @ 800ASA - why should a camera with a Sony-CMOS be less noisy? The S2 will be the first cam using the new CCD-generation + microlenses and the lenses are better @ f2.5 than every C/N-lens for the smaller format. When they are able to integrate the Sensor+-like-technology, they could even gain 2 stops more.
You don't have HD-video or 5fps (it's just as fast as the D3x) but the highest fill-rate of those cameras - this is a camera for high-quality-prints, not the daily press-work.
I've handled the S2 on the Photokina and compared it within a few hours with Hasselblad, F&H, Phamiya and C/N. This camera feels like from another planet, somebody tries really to improve the game - not by adding more buttons, or HD-video but on the most substantial aspects: IQ and ergonomics. The biggest revolution since the first full-frame DSLR.
Leica was so often disappointed by their customers (that might sound strange, but look at R8, M5 and S1 - great cameras which were accepted much too late). I hope the internet is a game changer here, when people can see the first highres-shots with their own eyes and forget about all those ideas of Leica-lenses in front of their 5dII, D3x or A900 - this quality would have been impossible with those cams behind their lenses.
I sure do hope your right, I'm very excited about this camera. I think Leica should get a pat on the back for reaching for the absolute best that can be produced. It's great that canon can make a good everyman camera that will "do the job" but surely there's room for cameras like that and also cameras that reach for the limit. And it's not just doctors that can afford them, I'm a working professional and I'm very interested in the system. Don't forget in the London, New York and Paris markets there are still people making a lot of money, less than they used to but a bit less than a LOT is still quite a lot.
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The Leica S2 "almost final" version has been presented in New York, July 14th, Fotocare:
http://www.pdngearguide.com/gearguide/cont...7d4ff2bceb?pn=1 (http://www.pdngearguide.com/gearguide/content_display/news/e3ia0e58e69829af2a9afe6d17d4ff2bceb?pn=1)
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Lots and lots of maybes. I just don't understand marketing in this style. Imagine walking into a Lexus showroom, and a new model is unveiled, and you ask the price, and they say, "We'll get back to you on that. Call us in a month". By the time that month rolls around, you've seen something else that's shiny, and you move on. I just don't get it. But nothing in that Leica hype mentality makes common sense. They sell them as "fashion/status accessories", not as cameras, to be used to make actual photographs.
No, not when it's on the showroom floor but lots of car manufacturers don't announce pricing until right before it does hit the floor. Audi spent a couple years trotting the R8 around to shows here and there before it was released. And for two years the Audi forum was a buzz over the pricing. Everyone had an opinion on it. People put down deposits on the car without knowing anything about the pricing. That's the way it works in the Car industry. Pricing is set at the last moment.
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Leica is in a special situation, they had the chance to create an entirely new system (because they needed new AF-lenses anyway) and they did. But because this system has no direct predecessor which could be affected by the presentation of a successor they decided to present it during prototype status. That's not very common, but gave customers the chance to keep an eye on Leicas development and getting used to the new concept while also giving the impression of presenting an unfinished product.
The M8 and the DMR are very special systems, which are not manufactured or developed by Leica in the digital department (the DMR was made by Imacon, they now make the backs for Hasselblad and the digital part of the M8 is made by Jenoptik, they make the Sinar backs) and had to fight certain technical restricitions. They use the same components as MF-backs, so they are slow but also offer extremly high IQ (with smaller files of course). But for both solutions, technology simply wasn't ready - not because of incompetence or cost cuttings (well, as we know today, Mr. Lee pushed the M8 a few weeks early which caused banding - he was fired one year ago) but customers wanted these solutions, anyway.
The S2 is the first "real" digital camera by Leica since the S1 which was a fabulous camera, although too early for the market. It's now a question of price and design maturity- but the technical aspects have simply no match.
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Here's a snapshot from my iPhone showing the AF-ON button (to the right of eyepiece) :
[attachment=15398:S2_AF_ON.jpg]
sorry guys, this focus button looks so frankencamera to me...did they put it there, because thats where they found some space left over...
They build a camera from ground up and forgot this really important button, important if you're into AF...man, I'm not so sure anymore...would buy 2 M9 fullframe to replace my aging Mamiya 7 in an instant...but I guess I pass on this one
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No, not when it's on the showroom floor but lots of car manufacturers don't announce pricing until right before it does hit the floor. Audi spent a couple years trotting the R8 around to shows here and there before it was released. And for two years the Audi forum was a buzz over the pricing. Everyone had an opinion on it. People put down deposits on the car without knowing anything about the pricing. That's the way it works in the Car industry. Pricing is set at the last moment.
The only reason anybody compares these little cameras to cars is the cost . . . and the depreciation once you break the seal on the box.
The Leica is like a Porsche SUV. It's cute, played well when people wanted to impress but a working day in day out camera? Who knows because from everything that's been posted there is no information on costs, real iso, real images, software, tethering, repair services, tech support and the list goes on.
Right now there only three of these things floating around all being shown to people who have time to sit in a dealership and listen to the sales talk. If it turns out this is a great camera, does something we can't do at the moment then good, but if it is just a 2006 SUV with 500 hp then I'm not so sure, at least for the working photographer.
Right now, with consumer attitude the way it is, nobody believes anymore and I'm not talking specialty cameras, I'm talking everything we are asked to buy. We've all been stung, we've all believed the dealer hype and the pdf's but until this thing, or any camera is proven, is working, is making images and hopefully helping the professional photographer turn a profit, it's just another show car.
BC
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do you work for leica?
does that matter?
I wonder if you are inferring that working for a manufacture taints your perspective and your comments should be ignored?
What if he worked with leica to develop this camera.. should we just blow him off as biased? Lots of folks here have connections
to the equipment being discussed..their statements must be truly suspect...I think not.
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quoted from the PDN article
"Though pricing has still not been set, some Leica observers expect the S2 to sell for approximately $20,000. "
I certainly hope not, I'm all for this S2, but the long delay and botched marketing is too much...
and now if they think they are actually going to sell to people like me for that price... no way, honestly I rather just pick up a used H3D-31 for half that if not less.
Then again this is just ME!
crazy
am
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quoted from the PDN article
"Though pricing has still not been set, some Leica observers expect the S2 to sell for approximately $20,000. "
I certainly hope not, I'm all for this S2, but the long delay and botched marketing is too much...
and now if they think they are actually going to sell to people like me for that price... no way, honestly I rather just pick up a used H3D-31 for half that if not less.
Then again this is just ME!
crazy
am
A P40+ back (no camera) is $20K. Same size sensor with same MP (within 7%). An H3DII-39 is $22K. A new H3DII-31 is $18K.
Why shouldn't the S2 be worth $20K? Especially considering the advantages of the S2:
- weather sealing
- 35mm size, weight and handling
- speed
- leaf shutter and focal plane shutter
- vertical grip (with extra battery)
- dual card slots
- clear, bright and large hi-res LCD
- DNG RAW format, not proprietary
- superior lenses that require no s/w correction and offer faster max apertures
I'm not sure how Leica has "botched" the marketing. They showed 20 working prototypes at Photokina the day after they announced the camera to the world. The S2 is/was promised for September 2009 and will ship in September 2009, so no delay here. Leica has held back pricing so that they could be competitive at launch time. Imagine if they had announced "competitive" pricing a year ago, when the H3DII-39 was selling for $34K.
Don't worry. Official pricing is just a week or two away and samples will be shown before the camera hits shelves in two months.
David
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A P40+ back (no camera) is $20K. Same size sensor with same MP (within 7%). An H3DII-39 is $22K. A new H3DII-31 is $18K.
Why shouldn't the S2 be worth $20K? Especially considering the advantages of the S2:
with the phase one I can buy all lenses and the body of choice ( Contax, Mamiya, Hasselblad ) NOW new and used, with Hasselblad I can buy all lenses NOW new and used, both have established pro support and service which actually does work..even Nikon and Canon do have something like CPS and NPS. Nobody knows how the Leica will support the S2 at a service level, I hope it will be quicker as with the M8...
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Why shouldn't the S2 be worth $20K? Especially considering the advantages of the S2:
I volunteer to do a side by side official test against a 5D2. Mirror up, strobe, tripod, real test. Final RAW files rezzed to 8.5"x11" CMYK magazine page. Sharpen to taste, then staple the prints to the wall and choose.
--------------------------------
5DII, with backup body (proven track record)
Normal lens
Slight wide lens
Slight telephoto
___________
$ 10,800 approximate (USD)
--------------------------------
S2, with backup body (unproven track record)
Normal lens
Slight wide lens
Slight telephoto
___________
$ 53,000 appoximate (USD)
--------------------------------
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David
Thank you for your note, but respectfully, see the thing is in my line of work once I get a brief form an ad agency, the next step is a "request for quote" or "request for proposal", nothing goes forward before numbers are laid out.
also it's a bit dangerous to do what Leica is doing, such a long wait period will turn some potential clients away.
You have to have the product ready to go once you build so much interest in the market, how many people do you think will put their gear purchase on hold and wait when they don't even have details ($$). This is not a little something your buying just for kicks where the price is not as major factor, at least I see this as a Major investment, (lease).
Plus all this dslr talk, honestly I find the D3X slightly over priced... so where does that leave us?!
Unfortunately wanting the best and your clients willing to pay for the best is a challenge in the commercial photography world.
I look forward to seeing solid numbers in the next few weeks, that should answer many questions.
but if they are high, well this will be another rental only item to me, which is too bad because I actually like the S2, the idea behind it, the glass (dah!) the vertical grip, and would love to see it succeed, but the world has changed in the last year....
be well
am
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I volunteer to do a side by side official test against a 5D2. Mirror up, strobe, tripod, real test. Final RAW files rezzed to 8.5"x11" CMYK magazine page. Sharpen to taste, then staple the prints to the wall and choose.
--------------------------------
5DII, with backup body (proven track record)
Normal lens
Slight wide lens
Slight telephoto
___________
$ 10,800 approximate (USD)
--------------------------------
S2, with backup body (unproven track record)
Normal lens
Slight wide lens
Slight telephoto
___________
$ 53,000 appoximate (USD)
--------------------------------
that is funny ..
I might as well stick to my little 10mp camera with those tough size requirements..
if that is the size of the world you live in then you would be an absolute idiot to buy into the S2..
or even waste your time on such a test.. it was funny though.
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i think we all want the S2 to succeed...and we probably all want one....
there are so many things absolutely great about it....it almost completely sums up what is wrong with existing DMF and why that market is dead (yes it is dead, like b&w film is dead....and thank god you can still get some somewhere....)
2 years ago i would have bought the S2....at almost any price...although that is a very dangerous thing to say with leica.....
now we are not only in different economic times, technology has evolved as well.....really any 2000$ DSLR provides full page mag work, the 5DII shoots cropped mag spreads at 1200iso...no problem....if someone needs ultimate resolution, DR,....from a tripod they will get a P65 with their existing kit, lenses, bodies and probably trade in or sell their P40 and keep things within reason....and have a bullet proof, proven kit seemlessly working within their existing workflow...and this not only means pros but amateurs as well...
for the S2 to succeed, leica needs to give away the body and try and make money on the lenses....there is no other way....i am sure some people will buy one regardless but it really is a bit heavy for the casual walk and i am not sure all these doctors who bought H1/2/3s or phase or even leaf systems inthe last couple of years will just dump all their stuff and learn new software.....just to play with an unproven system....
i know that the S2 sounds great, that DNG really should be everybody's raw format and that finder and lenses make my mouth water.....but for working people or someone with an existing kit it comes down to cash.....
i would love to rent one! but who will have it? we all just saw what happened with the Hy6!
and if i get that huge ad job with the huge budget i won't rent an unproven system anyway....
the real problem for me (which is why got rid of all my DMF stuff a year ago) is that DMF claims to shoot up to 800...great...i kinda liked that look with my P30....but the DR i get from my 5DII is much great at 800 then from any DMF! AND i can shoot at 1.4 or even 1.2.....
even if leica drops the bomb and sells the S2 with lens for 15000$, each additional lens will be in the 5-10000$ range....so in sept. i will write a check for 25000 for a body with 2 lenses.....or maybe save 20000 and get the D700x with 2 lenses instead? it just does not make sense for anyone working in photography....as sad as that might be....
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I volunteer to do a side by side official test against a 5D2. Mirror up, strobe, tripod, real test. Final RAW files rezzed to 8.5"x11" CMYK magazine page. Sharpen to taste, then staple the prints to the wall and choose.
--------------------------------
5DII, with backup body (proven track record)
Normal lens
Slight wide lens
Slight telephoto
___________
$ 10,800 approximate (USD)
--------------------------------
S2, with backup body (unproven track record)
Normal lens
Slight wide lens
Slight telephoto
___________
$ 53,000 appoximate (USD)
--------------------------------
My P45+ mounted on a Phamiya III is pretty damned good on a tripod with strobe. Doesn't even need mirror up (errr... strobe...) but put it in a real-world non-studio situation and it so often doesn't even struggle, just gives up. If the S2 can do decent ISO 800 or more and has less mirror and shutter slap, it wins. Then we start thinking about the relative system costs.
What you have outlined is one test. There are quite clearly many amongst us whose 'real worlds' are often rather different.
Tim
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My P45+ mounted on a Phamiya III is pretty damned good on a tripod with strobe. Doesn't even need mirror up (errr... strobe...) but put it in a real-world non-studio situation and it so often doesn't even struggle, just gives up. If the S2 can do decent ISO 800 or more and has less mirror and shutter slap, it wins.
I agree with you, (I think). Yesterday I shot a job with my P45+, and went all the way up to ASA 200. That was as far as I felt comfortable.
So I agree with you. That's why I think the Leica is more a competitor to the 5D2 or 1ds3 than it is to any other MF product out there, due to the 35 feel and the ASA range. I have no doubt that the Leica lenses will be stunning. But when the 5D2 offers clean ASA 800, plus 1.4 lenses rather than 2.5 lenses, then all of a sudden, you can show up to a job with Profoto 600's instead of Profoto 2400's. The money savings keeps getting more and more extreme, the more you play it out.
I consider this S2 a "big 35" rather than MF. And head to head with the 5D2, in this economy, I just smell trouble for Leica.
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But when the 5D2 offers clean ASA 800, plus 1.4 lenses rather than 2.5 lenses, then all of a sudden, you can show up to a job with Profoto 600's instead of Profoto 2400's. The money savings keeps getting more and more extreme, the more you play it out.
Won't the S2 have shallower DOF at the same aperture compared to a FF 35mm? Has anyone done the math on a DOF comparison between a 5D2 f/1.4 vs S2 f/2.5?
Good point about the flashes.
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I agree with you, (I think). Yesterday I shot a job with my P45+, and went all the way up to ASA 200. That was as far as I felt comfortable.
So I agree with you. That's why I think the Leica is more a competitor to the 5D2 or 1ds3 than it is to any other MF product out there, due to the 35 feel and the ASA range. I have no doubt that the Leica lenses will be stunning. But when the 5D2 offers clean ASA 800, plus 1.4 lenses rather than 2.5 lenses, then all of a sudden, you can show up to a job with Profoto 600's instead of Profoto 2400's. The money savings keeps getting more and more extreme, the more you play it out.
I consider this S2 a "big 35" rather than MF. And head to head with the 5D2, in this economy, I just smell trouble for Leica.
Perhaps the small form factor and nice ergonomics are getting in the way here. If the sensor is the same size and resolution (and pixel pitch) as a P40+, why is the P40+ considered medium format and the S2 a "big 35mm"?
Also, regarding using an AcuteB 600R vs a Pro-7b 1200, how often are you using strobes at high ISO and wide apertures? I'd think that a selectable leaf shutter option would provide far more power savings when shooting with battery-operated strobes on location. If I can sync at 1/500th on an S2 vs. /125th on a Phamiya, I only need 1/4 the amount of power to overpower the sun/ambient while shooting at the same aperture. It also lets me shoot that shot with more modest apertures instead of f/22, where diffraction will rob you of detail. And while a Hasselblad can sync up to 1/800th, you are out of luck if you want to shoot oustide wide-open as the max shutter speed is limited to 1/800th vs. 1/4000th with an S2. Isn't professional shooting about flexibility in situations like this? This is especially important in markets like mine (Miami), where outdoor beach shoots are the norm. Being able to have one system with the ability to take a dynamic 80/20 shot with strobes, then just flip a switch and shoot an ethereal shallow DOF shot wide open would be a huge advantage. No switching bodies, using long teles to mimic shallow DOF, pesky ND filters, etc.
The other thing that I don't see discussed here is leasing. I love leasing. I just got a new laptop and put it on a lease. In our professional photo lab we lease 250K Durst printing machines, as well as 6K Epsons. I lease my car. Not only can you pay over time, but there are some really great tax advantages as well (usually, the entire monthly payment is fully deductible - talk to your accountant first). If a full S2 systems costs you $900-1000 a month, you could offset that monthly cost with jobs, client charges, or rental fees to other photographers.
Just trying to offer a slightly different perspective here. I'll also be happy to do head-to-head testing (great blog material!), but I'd like to push that print size to 40x60 inches. I can already make phenomenal 20x30s with my M8.2. If a 5DmkII wasn't able to make a decent 8.5x11, I'd be pretty worried. I'm pretty confident that the S2 with Leica glass, 37.5 MP, 56% larger sensor and no resolution-robbing AA filter will soundly beat the Canon with L glass on an AA-filtered 21 MP (with aggressive NR).
In my new (leased) laptop, I have two SSD drives in RAID 0. They are 4-8 times more expensive per GB than a spinning HDD. So, obviously, they are not worth the extra expense as they are "just drives", right? If you ask anyone who has switched, they will tell you that they never realized anything was wrong before, but they can never go back to a standard spinning platter drive. The crazy speed, total silence, lack of heat, and resistance to shock are all truly game-changing. I think once people start shooting with the S2 themselves, a lot of this kind of conversation and pessimism will fall by the wayside as I expect it to change the expectations of MFD. I have spoken to a lot of photographers who really like the S2 concept and are okay with the expected price. They are not doctors and lawyers, etc. They are photographers who want to get the best possible image quality with the least fuss and compromise. Some are coming from D3x and 5DmkIIs, while a fair amount are coming from (and trading in/selling) P45+ and H3DII-31/39 systems.
David
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I have spoken to a lot of photographers who really like the S2 concept and are okay with the expected price. They are not doctors and lawyers, etc. They are photographers who want to get the best possible image quality with the least fuss and compromise. Some are coming from D3x and 5DmkIIs, while a fair amount are coming from (and trading in/selling) P45+ and H3DII-31/39 systems.
I hope the Leica works out, David.
I was just seeing what you were made of -- you held your own very well.
Everyone wants the best image quality, but the real question is, when time comes, when the thing finally ships -- will they actually write the check? (Lease or buy).
But I can't get anywhere near your opinion on leasing gear, versus buying. Always sounds great on paper, but never seems to pan out in real life: http://www.leaseguide.com/Articles/toptricks.htm (http://www.leaseguide.com/Articles/toptricks.htm)
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I hope the Leica works out, David.
I was just seeing what you were made of -- you held your own very well.
Everyone wants the best image quality, but the real question is, when time comes, when the thing finally ships -- will they actually write the check? (Lease or buy).
But I can't get anywhere near your opinion on leasing gear, versus buying. Always sounds great on paper, but never seems to pan out in real life: http://www.leaseguide.com/Articles/toptricks.htm (http://www.leaseguide.com/Articles/toptricks.htm)
The leasing I'm talking about (cars aside) is purchasing. No tricks.
When you lease a car for 36 months, you are paying for the depreciation (MSRP - residual value after 3 years) plus interest. In other words if you lease a $40K car, you'll have to pay about $25K at the end of the lease to buy it. Or, you can just continue making payments and get a new car every 3 years. While this might seem crazy for some people (paying every month forever), it makes good business sense.
Equipment leasing can work like this. This type of lease is called a Fair Market Value lease. You pay month by month then have a fair market value buyout at the end, or you return the gear. Not such a great idea in my mind for capital equipment. I prefer the $1 buyout lease. You pay month by month, then you pay your last payment plus one dollar and the equipment is yours. In other words, it is much more like a car loan. But, for tax reasons, you can deduct the entire payment as a line item expense. And, if you have a company or LLC, you can make the lease payment pre-tax. So, you get more purchasing power, and then also claim this is as a business expense, which then further reduces your tax obligation. (At least in the USA) If you buy for cash, you had to pay tax on your earnings so everything you buy automatically becomes more expensive. Then, you can only deduct your depreciation on a standard depreciation schedule. This is why leasing costs less overall, provided you have profits/income to write it off against.
Buying an S2 system on a 36 month $1 buyout lease for a photographer isn't much different than a pro lab buying a million dollars of printing equipment on a 5 year $1 buyout lease. Just a different scale, but all the advantages for the larger business are available to individuals as well.
I hope this makes more sense.
David
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if i could make phenomenal 20x30s from my m8, i would not need another camera.....but from my m8 i can make really, really nice 11x14s.....i CAN make great 20x30s from my 5dII and could go a bit bigger with the P30...i don't need to go bigger, i need usable 800iso...for many reasons....smaller flash packs and faster recycle are some, being able to light a shot with my (yes) iphone is another......
we are all aware of leasing options, but i am really happy i did not lease my equipment 3 years ago....i bought it and sold it while i still got some money for it....i would really hate to see how much the S2 is worth in 3 years....
i am sure canon/nikon will go to bigger chips....and along the way pick up a little from the RED concept...raw video, variable frame rates...all along with usable 30mpix files at 1600iso....maybe it won't all happen at once, maybe it will take 2 years, but it will happen....and it will cost less then 5000 for the body....and i really don't want to be writing 1000$/month checks for the S2 at that point....
btw: the SSD option in your laptop is great and i am looking into that as well right now....but you are getting 5x the performance for 10x the price....not 25% better image quality (at base iso) with fewer features (slower, slower af, accessories, workflow,...unproven, no rental,....) at 10x the price (comparing a 5Dii with the S2).....and the SSDs you put in this month will be outdated and their faster, bigger follow up models will be a fraction of the price in 8 months.....
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David
I agree with you on the leasing thing, that's also how it works in Canada.
Do you have any news or personal thoughts on what's happening with the software for the S2 now that Phase is out?
will there be software for tethered shooting?
thanks
am
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if i could make phenomenal 20x30s from my m8, i would not need another camera.....but from my m8 i can make really, really nice 11x14s.....i CAN make great 20x30s from my 5dII and could go a bit bigger with the P30...i don't need to go bigger, i need usable 800iso...for many reasons....smaller flash packs and faster recycle are some, being able to light a shot with my (yes) iphone is another......
I do routinely make 20x30s from my M8/M8.2 and they are excellent. In fact, all of my standard samples I show to customers are at this size. If I can't make a good 20x30, why should I bother shooting that camera? It helps to have good output, of course. This is another topic of discussion, though.
I will not stop using my M8.2 when I start shooting with the S2. They are entirely different systems for different types of photography and different applications.
we are all aware of leasing options, but i am really happy i did not lease my equipment 3 years ago....i bought it and sold it while i still got some money for it....i would really hate to see how much the S2 is worth in 3 years....
If the M8 is any indication of retained value, a used 3-year-old M8 currently sells for about $3100. Initially price was $4795, so it actually held 2/3rds of its value. Many Leica lenses are actually worth more used than their original purchaser paid 5-10 years ago. For various reasons, Leica equipment tends to retain value better than other brands.
i am sure canon/nikon will go to bigger chips....and along the way pick up a little from the RED concept...raw video, variable frame rates...all along with usable 30mpix files at 1600iso....maybe it won't all happen at once, maybe it will take 2 years, but it will happen....and it will cost less then 5000 for the body....and i really don't want to be writing 1000$/month checks for the S2 at that point....
Yes, the future is very interesting. I do doubt that Nikon and Canon will go larger than 35mm anytime soon.
The S2 will be just as fast and produce just as high quality files in 3 years as it will in 3 months from now. That is to say, for most applications, a MF camera that can shoot 1.5fps and give great 37.5MP output will be plenty for a long while. This is part of the reason behind the slowdown of MFDB. How many photographers need 60MP? At a certain point, these systems have to become more durable (not rugged, rather durable in the economic sense of lasting 3+ years). It is also very possible that the S2 will deliver good 37MP files at ISO 1600. Obviously, the proof will be in the actual results.
btw: the SSD option in your laptop is great and i am looking into that as well right now....but you are getting 5x the performance for 10x the price....not 25% better image quality (at base iso) with fewer features (slower, slower af, accessories, workflow,...unproven, no rental,....) at 10x the price (comparing a 5Dii with the S2).....and the SSDs you put in this month will be outdated and their faster, bigger follow up models will be a fraction of the price in 8 months.....
I agree. I did many hours of research before going in this direction. I chose the Samsung 256GB SSD because it reflects the latest technology. It is extremely fast for both read and write, and while not as fast at random 4K read/write as the Intel, it is way faster than the JMicron-based drives and standard HDDs. Also, it was half the price per GB and had a size that I though would be acceptable (80GB is just too small for my needs). I fully appreciate that in 12 months, I will be able to buy a drive with 2x as much capacity, 2x the performance (maybe), at half the price. But, I will be able to be more productive in those 12 months so my TCO will not be as high as it would seem. I will probably use the drives for 2 years, then change, but the performance will be the same as I get today (Samsung uses idle-time garbage collection as of July 1), which is to say still extremely fast. You can always wait for next year's model to come along, but at a certain point you have to commit, otherwise you'll wait forever and get no utility.
Interestingly, the SSD technology from just a year ago seems antiquated and overpriced compared to today's solutions. I certainly wouldn't have even considered one just a few months ago. In many ways I see parallels to MFD. Not that long ago, MFDBs didn't even have LCDs or CF card storage. At the same time, consumer P&S cameras had both for a fraction of the cost. The IQ was there, but not the ergonomics. Things are improving, but too slowly. I think that Leica is making a statement by putting technology and features many take for granted in 35mm and bringing them to MFD, where they have been lacking. Weather sealing, DNG+JPG, hi-res LCD screen, wi-fi tethering, real-time image zooming, etc.
As to 25% better IQ... who can really quantify right now? When comparisons are done in the coming months (as I'm sure they will be), we'll see. The truth is, SSDs are a rare exception to the rule of diminishing returns. Many say it is the upgrade with the single biggest impact on user experience and system performance. If you upgrade your CPU from a 2.66 to a 3.06, expect to pay double for an incremental increase in performance. If you buy a Lexus IS350 for $36K, you can go 0-60 in 5.6 secs. If you get a BMW M3 for $55K you go 0-60 in 4.6 secs. And, if you pay $135K for a Porsche 911 Turbo, you can save one more second at 3.5 sec. So, is 1 second "worth" $20K to go from Lexus to M3, or is 1 second "worth" $80K to go from M3 to 911? There are even companies that will tune a 911 Turbo to shave off 1/2 sec - it will only double the cost of the car. This is classic diminishing returns. Cameras and lenses are no different, just much less money.
David
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David
I agree with you on the leasing thing, that's also how it works in Canada.
Do you have any news or personal thoughts on what's happening with the software for the S2 now that Phase is out?
will there be software for tethered shooting?
thanks
am
Back at PMA, there was discussion about Adobe. Even going back to Photokina, the sample S2 shots were being displayed using Lightroom. From a workflow standpoint, Lightroom would be a great solution, if Leica decides to go that way. Because the files are native DNG and because the lenses don't require any s/w correction, you could use any s/w that reads a DNG. If you like Aperture, use that. If you want to bring files straight into CS4, go for it. I believe that C1 reads DNG files now, but I have no idea if S2 DNGs will be allowed to be opened/imported or not.
As far as tethering, the last I heard is maybe using some simple utility to load the files into a hot folder. Not sure how the wi-fi tethering will work either. I'm hoping Leica will release some final tech specs and software directions along with pricing this month.
David
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Won't the S2 have shallower DOF at the same aperture compared to a FF 35mm? Has anyone done the math on a DOF comparison between a 5D2 f/1.4 vs S2 f/2.5?
f/2.5 on S2 = f/2 on 35FF
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If the M8 is any indication of retained value, a used 3-year-old M8 currently sells for about $3100. Initially price was $4795, so it actually held 2/3rds of its value.
actually the used M8s sell closer to $2500/2600 these days, through private party sales.
Many Leica lenses are actually worth more used than their original purchaser paid 5-10 years ago. For various reasons, Leica equipment tends to retain value better than other brands.
this is somewhat misleading.
the "many" Leica lenses you are referring to are rangefinder-based (M and/or LTM) lenses that are backwards and forwards compatible with just about every/any Leica rangefinder camera made in the last 50yrs. ... a major factor in their appeal, longevity and desirability.
and those lenses deemed even more desirable are driven by their rarity and/or collector value ... and thus are valued accordingly.
i think it's wishful thinking to suggest that the S system (or, frankly, any modern built-for-obsolescence system ... Leica or not) will follow suit of the M system, in terms of widespread appeal, durability, longevity and thus retained value (... just as the R system never has, and doubtfully ever will). and the fact that the S-system lenses are CPU-controlled pretty much assures their fate will mirror that of the S2.
... not every Porsche is a 356 or a 911.
but i suspect you already know that.
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I have spoken to a lot of photographers who really like the S2 concept and are okay with the expected price. They are not doctors and lawyers, etc. They are photographers who want to get the best possible image quality with the least fuss and compromise. Some are coming from D3x and 5DmkIIs, while a fair amount are coming from (and trading in/selling) P45+ and H3DII-31/39 systems.
really? Photographers are trading in their P45's for S2 cameras that are not released. how do they do that?
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sorry david, but 20x30 prints with the m8 just do not cut it for serious fine art photographers. maybe if you have not seen what 50mpx can do. the
37mpx of the S2 maybe ok for fashion photographers but people who need to really print big will always look for max res.
peter
Perhaps the small form factor and nice ergonomics are getting in the way here. If the sensor is the same size and resolution (and pixel pitch) as a P40+, why is the P40+ considered medium format and the S2 a "big 35mm"?
Also, regarding using an AcuteB 600R vs a Pro-7b 1200, how often are you using strobes at high ISO and wide apertures? I'd think that a selectable leaf shutter option would provide far more power savings when shooting with battery-operated strobes on location. If I can sync at 1/500th on an S2 vs. /125th on a Phamiya, I only need 1/4 the amount of power to overpower the sun/ambient while shooting at the same aperture. It also lets me shoot that shot with more modest apertures instead of f/22, where diffraction will rob you of detail. And while a Hasselblad can sync up to 1/800th, you are out of luck if you want to shoot oustide wide-open as the max shutter speed is limited to 1/800th vs. 1/4000th with an S2. Isn't professional shooting about flexibility in situations like this? This is especially important in markets like mine (Miami), where outdoor beach shoots are the norm. Being able to have one system with the ability to take a dynamic 80/20 shot with strobes, then just flip a switch and shoot an ethereal shallow DOF shot wide open would be a huge advantage. No switching bodies, using long teles to mimic shallow DOF, pesky ND filters, etc.
The other thing that I don't see discussed here is leasing. I love leasing. I just got a new laptop and put it on a lease. In our professional photo lab we lease 250K Durst printing machines, as well as 6K Epsons. I lease my car. Not only can you pay over time, but there are some really great tax advantages as well (usually, the entire monthly payment is fully deductible - talk to your accountant first). If a full S2 systems costs you $900-1000 a month, you could offset that monthly cost with jobs, client charges, or rental fees to other photographers.
Just trying to offer a slightly different perspective here. I'll also be happy to do head-to-head testing (great blog material!), but I'd like to push that print size to 40x60 inches. I can already make phenomenal 20x30s with my M8.2. If a 5DmkII wasn't able to make a decent 8.5x11, I'd be pretty worried. I'm pretty confident that the S2 with Leica glass, 37.5 MP, 56% larger sensor and no resolution-robbing AA filter will soundly beat the Canon with L glass on an AA-filtered 21 MP (with aggressive NR).
In my new (leased) laptop, I have two SSD drives in RAID 0. They are 4-8 times more expensive per GB than a spinning HDD. So, obviously, they are not worth the extra expense as they are "just drives", right? If you ask anyone who has switched, they will tell you that they never realized anything was wrong before, but they can never go back to a standard spinning platter drive. The crazy speed, total silence, lack of heat, and resistance to shock are all truly game-changing. I think once people start shooting with the S2 themselves, a lot of this kind of conversation and pessimism will fall by the wayside as I expect it to change the expectations of MFD. I have spoken to a lot of photographers who really like the S2 concept and are okay with the expected price. They are not doctors and lawyers, etc. They are photographers who want to get the best possible image quality with the least fuss and compromise. Some are coming from D3x and 5DmkIIs, while a fair amount are coming from (and trading in/selling) P45+ and H3DII-31/39 systems.
David
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really? Photographers are trading in their P45's for S2 cameras that are not released. how do they do that?
They do it by stating their intention, as have I, to do the trade in when they get the chance provided certain conditions are met - such as price and performance of the S2 coming in wherever that particular photographer expects them to.
I see the whole thing like this:
A lot of people own, rather than rent, expensive MF systems that they find less than satisfactory for whatever reasons. And it seems that a fair number of them are hoping that the S2 will provide them with a viable alternative. We all know that it's likely to cost, wide ballpark, $20,000 and at that price it seems that some people will consider it viable and others not. That must depend on the economics of each photographer. There seems to be a lot of steam on this thread to the effect that this price is too much. Well, if that's the case for any individual they won't buy it; and if Leica misjudges the economics of the whole situation they'll lose money!
But to imply somehow (and I'm not saying that you personally are implying this but it is in the air around here I think!) that there's a moral dimension to S2 pricing is not something with which I have any sympathy...
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sorry david, but 20x30 prints with the m8 just do not cut it for serious fine art photographers. maybe if you have not seen what 50mpx can do. the
37mpx of the S2 maybe ok for fashion photographers but people who need to really print big will always look for max res.
peter
I vote otherwise. I know this is a 'how long is a piece of string' topic but many people I know have made and exhibited M8 20 x 30 prints that have knocked our socks off. People started noticing this soon after the camera was released. I also shoot a P45+ on both Phamiya and Cambo cameras and have this past year been using 1DSIII and 5DII and I have a large format printer and have made many, many prints on 24" wide paper from all cameras. At its two lower ISOs the M8 holds up very well at the size you state. Some people go larger with it, I wouldn't.
Have you tried it?
Tim
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tim,
sure i have tried it (with the m8, not the m8.2, but that should be the same). for low information content
photography (and i mean here in the sense of information science, i.e. abstracts) 10mpx is ok even for 20x30 prints
but certainly not for landscapes and other sujets where details are important. in my tests the D3x beats m8 prints
easily and, of course, the H3DII 50 beats the D3x. but this is almost a triviality. anyway, i am waiting for my P60
(to be used on alpa) and for the H3DII 60. the gap between the D3x and the real high end stuff is not big enough for
the S2 to fit in, particularly at the price point that is rumored.
peter
I vote otherwise. I know this is a 'how long is a piece of string' topic but many people I know have made and exhibited M8 20 x 30 prints that have knocked our socks off. People started noticing this soon after the camera was released. I also shoot a P45+ on both Phamiya and Cambo cameras and have this past year been using 1DSIII and 5DII and I have a large format printer and have made many, many prints on 24" wide paper from all cameras. At its two lower ISOs the M8 holds up very well at the size you state. Some people go larger with it, I wouldn't.
Have you tried it?
Tim
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tim,
sure i have tried it (with the m8, not the m8.2, but that should be the same). for low information content
photography (and i mean here in the sense of information science, i.e. abstracts) 10mpx is ok even for 20x30 prints
but certainly not for landscapes and other sujets where details are important. in my tests the D3x beats m8 prints
easily and, of course, the H3DII 50 beats the D3x. but this is almost a triviality. anyway, i am waiting for my P60
(to be used on alpa) and for the H3DII 60. the gap between the D3x and the real high end stuff is not big enough for
the S2 to fit in, particularly at the price point that is rumored.
peter
Fair enough! I haven't used a D3X but if have sort of decided that if I don't like the S2 and Nikon does a sort of 5DII version of the D3X then I'll maybe switch. I am so fed up with poor Canon AF and their AA filter is like fog but the D3X is just so much bigger and heavier than it needs to be!
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Fair enough! I haven't used a D3X but if have sort of decided that if I don't like the S2 and Nikon does a sort of 5DII version of the D3X then I'll maybe switch. I am so fed up with poor Canon AF and their AA filter is like fog but the D3X is just so much bigger and heavier than it needs to be!
i agree. also i dislike canon's wide angles. mush in the corners. i haven't tried the new TSE lenses but the others are inferior to nikon's top
offerings...IMHO.
peter
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the gap between the D3x and the real high end stuff is not big enough for
the S2 to fit in, particularly at the price point that is rumored.
... considering only resolution and not other factors, yes, I would agree. However, the S2 has enough of a resolution advantage over the D3x for it to be a worthwhile step, for someone who is not even considering a traditional MF solution, for whatever reasons. I see the gap, and I am optimistic that Leica has judged correctly that they can sell 1000 cameras a year in that niche. In two months we will start to see what really happens.
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Fair enough! I haven't used a D3X but if have sort of decided that if I don't like the S2 and Nikon does a sort of 5DII version of the D3X then I'll maybe switch. I am so fed up with poor Canon AF and their AA filter is like fog but the D3X is just so much bigger and heavier than it needs to be!
Tim, definitely test a D3x/D700x before buying. I know people who cannot put their finger on exactly what the problem is, but just don't get excited about the results. It is no MF or Leica replacement.
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Tim, definitely test a D3x/D700x before buying. I know people who cannot put their finger on exactly what the problem is, but just don't get excited about the results. It is no MF or Leica replacement.
I have heard similar from some people - and some just hate the colours. I would try before buying for sure but I have so often found that file quality is something you judge over a really long series of images. Grrr, it's complicated isn't it?! I just want to take great shots and make lovely prints....
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I went from MFDB to the D3x and I'm happy to say it does the(my) job.
Of course an arTec with HR's and a MFDB back would,could(should) give me better files.
However the Nikon works for me at the moment and compared the Canon counter parts,I believe the D3x suits me better.
The S2 is not interesting for me,because there are no shift lenses(yet)
Best,
Willem.
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The S2 I just don't see it. First of all the chip size sits in the middle (30x45mm) plus they use a CCD chip ( forget the high iso). Then they are not using Phase One C1, another dumb move. Then the price which seems to be on the high ground & why would you switch from MFD to a smaller chip size? Finally Leica does not have HDV like the Canon 5DII @ $2500 USD.
Denis
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The S2 I just don't see it. First of all the chip size sits in the middle (30x45mm) plus they use a CCD chip ( forget the high iso). Then they are not using Phase One C1, another dumb move. Then the price which seems to be on the high ground & why would you switch from MFD to a smaller chip size? Finally Leica does not have HDV like the Canon 5DII @ $2500 USD.
Denis
Most of the MFDB chip sizes are less than full format, they vary in size and the smaller ones are a similar size to the one you'll get on the S2. There's no 'right' or 'wrong' chip size, only resolution, low noise, colour fidelity, tonal accuracy and dynamic range. Also AFAIK the S2 will be supported by C1. Why would Phase One leave it out? They make a RAW converter that they sell as being a general, not a Phase-specific, solution. Also, I love the video on my 5DII but a lot of people don't use or need it.
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Also AFAIK the S2 will be supported by C1. Why would Phase One leave it out? They make a RAW converter that they sell as being a general, not a Phase-specific, solution.
Why? For the same reason they have left out Hasselblad, Leaf and Sinar raw files. They don't want to do anything that would help direct competitors to their digital backs. I can (almost) guarantee it. Of course, if I am wrong, the Capture Integration team can jump in here.
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Why? For the same reason they have left out Hasselblad, Leaf and Sinar raw files. They don't want to do anything that would help direct competitors to their digital backs. I can (almost) guarantee it. Of course, if I am wrong, the Capture Integration team can jump in here.
Guess we'll see at the time of release.
Without a dedicated raw processor fine tuned to the camera the S2 would be missing a VITAL link in the image quality chain. Phase One gained half a stop of dynamic range, significant micro-detail, and much more aesthetic grain/noise going from C13 to C14 (which is in turn much better than LR for the same IQ issues). Leica makes a huge deal in their marketing about their attention to detail on every minute aspect of quality (e.g. taking the IR filter into account in the optic path design of the lens for the microscopic impact that has on actual image quality). Leaving out dedicated raw processing would be akin to making the high-end racing car and filling it with low-octane fuel (sure it would out-do a Ford, but it would defeat the purpose of ultra-fine-tuning everything else).
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Why? For the same reason they have left out Hasselblad, Leaf and Sinar raw files. They don't want to do anything that would help direct competitors to their digital backs. I can (almost) guarantee it. Of course, if I am wrong, the Capture Integration team can jump in here.
I agree, Howard. I'd say, after what we've seen with Hasselblad's historic moves, and the fade away of other companies in MF, I'd certainly not want to buy a camera that did not control EVERY facet of their product. I'd not want to buy something, if their software was dependent on another company.
I wouldn't blame Phase one bit if they sealed off Leica and any other MF camera from their software. This is business; this is about survival; this is not socialism; this is not about "playing fair".
Why couldn't Leica kidnap that Raw Developer guy, and force him to design killer software for their S2? Whatever the case, Leica needs to come to market with fully-owned solution. Imagine buying (investing) in that camera, and then having the software taken away...
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This thread is full of ill-informed hearsay and wishful thinkings.
So far, there're several things clear about the S2:
1. There's no word whether the Kodak sensor supports pixel binning or not, how do they get usable ISO1600? I don't know. Plus, pixel binning needs specific software support such as C1.
2. Phase One scrapped the deal with Leica and chances are there'll be no C1 support for the S2.
3. The 6 micron Kodak sensor only has 70db S/N while the DALSA 6 micron sensor has 74db, a difference of 2/3 stops in DR.
4. S2 only uses 14 bit A/D while all MFDBs run at 16 bit.
There's no point to argue about rumors.
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This thread is full of ill-informed hearsay and wishful thinkings.
So far, there're several things clear about the S2:
1. There's no word whether the Kodak sensor supports pixel binning or not, how do they get usable ISO1600? I don't know. Plus, pixel binning needs specific software support such as C1.
The S2 product managers said it will have pixel binning, long before Phase was even "involved." Why would they put it in firmware if the camera wasn't designed to do it? We will have to see how it is ultimately implemented. Also, I was assured that binning would result in 1-2 stops extra ISO range.
2. Phase One scrapped the deal with Leica and chances are there'll be no C1 support for the S2.
Are you sure it wasn't the other way around? The "strategic alliance" was announced on Sept. 22. By Sept. 23, Leica management was already having fits over Phase's PR efforts. By March, the writing was already on the wall and there was serious discussion of going in a different direction. Phase can choose to spin this anyway they want, but the reality is that this ended from both sides. There was a real concern at Leica that Phase would somehow deliver less than optimal conversions for S2 files through C1, now that the S2 is a viewed as a direct competitor (and, belive me, Phase does view the S2 as competition).
Hasselblad has no C1 support either. And anyone who trudged through Flexcolor, waiting for Phocus to be released, will tell you that sometimes in-house s/w isn't the best. If I can pop my files into LR and have a smooth, seemless workflow, all the better. I like C1, but the more I use LR, the more advantages I'm seeing. Things like localized adjustments, masking, dust spotting, etc. keep me out of Photoshop and allow me to keep all edits in RAW and non-destructive. Adobe will not stop their pace of development. LR will continue to get better, faster, and more full featured. Also, digital asset management and tight integration with web and print, as well as the entire CS4 collection make LR a pretty strong contender.
3. The 6 micron Kodak sensor only has 70db S/N while the DALSA 6 micron sensor has 74db, a difference of 2/3 stops in DR.
Let's see what the acutal resutls show. The sensor S/N numbers are one peice of the puzzle. A->D conversion also plays a large role here. According to Leica, they have one of the most efficent and clean A->D converters. A system is indeed a sum of its parts.
4. S2 only uses 14 bit A/D while all MFDBs run at 16 bit.
One, this fact has been debated ad naseum. Many BDs claim to be 16-bit, but are actually 14-bit. Two, If the sensors are only capable of using 12-14 bits of data due to a 12-stop DR, will there be a tangible and visible difference in IQ or file plasticity? Again, we will see.
There's no point to argue about rumors.
I agree with you here. I've made it my goal to stick to facts that I have learned directly from the S2 product managers. Rumors and misinformation help no one.
David
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Guess we'll see at the time of release.
Without a dedicated raw processor fine tuned to the camera the S2 would be missing a VITAL link in the image quality chain. Phase One gained half a stop of dynamic range, significant micro-detail, and much more aesthetic grain/noise going from C13 to C14 (which is in turn much better than LR for the same IQ issues). Leica makes a huge deal in their marketing about their attention to detail on every minute aspect of quality (e.g. taking the IR filter into account in the optic path design of the lens for the microscopic impact that has on actual image quality). Leaving out dedicated raw processing would be akin to making the high-end racing car and filling it with low-octane fuel (sure it would out-do a Ford, but it would defeat the purpose of ultra-fine-tuning everything else).
Strange, I have not seen any caveats in the advertising for Capture One as a raw converter for Canon and Nikon that, if you really care about maximizing image quality, you should use the Canon or Nikon raw conversion software and NOT Capture One.
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I agree with you here. I've made it my goal to stick to facts that I have learned directly from the S2 product managers. Rumors and misinformation help no one.
David
David,
You know more about the actual facts on the Lecia than I guess anyone, but from the buyer POV the facts haven't changed, the market has.
Nothing makes logical sense in the digital camera world and I'm including Nikon, Canon and Sony in on this also.
Canon sells a 5d2 that has twice the features of their 1ds3 for 1/2 to 1/3 the price and I think even Canon was caught by surprise about how much the market wanted a camera like the 5d2.
You know Nikon will follow suit with a d700x or 7000x, or D7,000,000x or whatever they seem to name cameras and if Leica never comes out with software other than a 30% discount on Lightroom, it will still be 5 times easier to use than Nikon's NIK software, which has to be the most insane interface ever devised.
Sony, they must have a board room made out of sand to stick their heads into during a meeting because even though they almost invented video their top of the line still camera doesn't offer live view, much less video capture. It's like they just kind of forgot that they knew how to do it.
The "fact" that the Leica is a revelation in the world of medium format just because it has a readable lcd and produces an in camera jpeg kind of shows you have far behind mfd is.
Still, I guess this Leica camera suits some people's needs (actually their wants), but I wonder who the market is, because if it's professionals they better get them into rentals way before they sell the first lens or body to a single user. (See the professional success of the AFI, HY6 for reference).
They also better have a better repair system than they offer for the M8 because waiting 3 months for a lens to be returned still out of focus isn't gonna cut it in today's world, cause today's world is a ball buster of get it done now.
If I was Leica, I wouldn't mention the M-8 because as much as I love that camera, I wouldn't stake my career on it, not unless I had a dozen of them in backup.
I'd like to see this thing succeed, heck I'd like to see it succeed at a price point of $25,000 because then the economy has truly turned around.
Until then time will tell, but there is this ceiling that still only digital cameras seemed to have reached. From 30 to 50mpx it seems that most people aren't rushing out to buy anything at the moment and I assume it's because there just isn't that much difference in the final image. Or maybe buyers are just waiting for 39mpx digital backs to come down to the low e-bay price of $2,000.
If you want to see robust sales, call the people that make video gizmos for the 5d2. They are all back ordered for weeks and months and that's gotta tell you something about where the market is heading. Call Samy's rental and ask for a D lens for a Phase/Mamiya III and they will give you a blank stare.
Ask them if they have a two channel sound mixer with xlr inputs for a 5d2 and they'll say yep, we carry that.
Now on the top end professional level I find most of this talk about proprietary software, specially designed lenses, magic coatings all funny, because on the high end of the scale, every image that ends up at the Big Time New York City retoucher is probably processed in Photoshop CS3, on a G5 without a single slider moved, other than exposure.
I know the people that sell "traditional" still cameras will take exception to this, but I find talking 30x40, 40x60, 60x90 prints a small niche market, because it's becoming a 72 dpi, 2k world and if anyone thinks big print is going to make a big comeback hasn't t read that the NYT's is bleeding 79 million a quarter, or been down to their local printer to see the empty parking lots. Sure some people want to print BIG on their Epsons, but most of those people aren't shooting with crews of 20 or, processing 2,000 files a night.
I also know that the people that sell "traditional" still cameras haven't talked to any professional photographer's clients, because they could care less if it's a Leica, a Blad or a Nikon.
All this talk is probably mute anyway, because all of these cameras are mostly just variations of an old theme, which is mirror up, take a shot, mirror down and saying 1.5 fps is almost comical considering the RED and probably the scarlet will shoot at 60 fps.
I'm thinking the Scarlet will turn it all sideways anyway and what we're working with today will look a hell of a lot different in a few years, (probably less) and even if RED doesn't become the standard, it's going to make the lower (and higher) priced competitors open their eyes, pop their head out of the sand and run to the computer to design something that competes.
Then again in the world of digital cameras, maybe not.
BC
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Why couldn't Leica kidnap that Raw Developer guy, and force him to design killer software for their S2? Whatever the case, Leica needs to come to market with fully-owned solution. Imagine buying (investing) in that camera, and then having the software taken away...
I don't understand why somebody---Nikon, Canon, Leica, Hasselblad, etc.--- has not bought that company. The quality of its conversions are first rate compared to ACR and Lightroom, and its sharpening tools are way better. Even Adobe, although there the problem is that the people who would have to recommend it would have to implicitly acknowledge they are not doing such a good job and they need to acquire this tiny little company down in Texas run by one guy.
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Then again in the world of digital cameras, maybe not.
BC
I clicked the Visit my Website link at the bottom of your excellent post. Is that REALLY you?
;-)
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... although there the problem is that the people who would have to recommend it would have to implicitly acknowledge they are not doing such a good job and they need to acquire this tiny little company down in Texas run by one guy.
It would best represent our interests if this guy can be left alone. The last thing he needs to know is a big corporate squarehead telling him what to do.
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I don't understand why somebody---Nikon, Canon, Leica, Hasselblad, etc.--- has not bought that company. The quality of its conversions are first rate compared to ACR and Lightroom, and its sharpening tools are way better. Even Adobe, although there the problem is that the people who would have to recommend it would have to implicitly acknowledge they are not doing such a good job and they need to acquire this tiny little company down in Texas run by one guy.
Are they in Texas? Totally off topic, but I'm curious Their contact info is sparse and their hours of operation are "Our business hours are from 9:00AM to 5:00PM Monday through Friday (except holidays), US Pacific Time." I assumed California or elsewhere. I've emailed a couple suggestions during the past year, and it definitely does seem like a 1-person effort.
Their conversions are excellent for those who are inclined to optimize settings work individual images. If C1 spits out something I don't like, then I use RAW Developer. RAW Developer is missing the front end for previewing images efficiently, deleting the dogs, grouping keepers in sub folders, etc. The thumbnails are unprocessed and look completely out of whack for the Mamiya ZD.
I like its processing engine, but they really do need somebody to rewrite the GUI and improve its overall workflow & file management. Don't get me wrong, I like RAW Developer and use it. But if Leica used RD in its current state without a sexier, more robust GUI, then I think most people would be very turned off by it. And, it's Mac only.
BTW - they just updated to version 1.8.4. For those who are interested, a demo version is available (http://www.iridientdigital.com/products/rawdeveloper.html).
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Dear Howard,
The Sinar DNG files produced by Sinar eXposure can be processed in C1, since the beginning.
Best regards,
Thierry
Why? For the same reason they have left out ..., ... and Sinar raw files. They don't want to do anything that would help direct competitors to their digital backs. I can (almost) guarantee it. Of course, if I am wrong, the Capture Integration team can jump in here.
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Absolutely true, David.
Thierry
One, this fact has been debated ad naseum. Many BDs claim to be 16-bit, but are actually 14-bit. Two, If the sensors are only capable of using 12-14 bits of data due to a 12-stop DR, will there be a tangible and visible difference in IQ or file plasticity? Again, we will see.
David
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I clicked the Visit my Website link at the bottom of your excellent post. Is that REALLY you?
;-)
Uh . . . no.
The point I'm trying to make is, these 10% upgrades of cameras, lenses, lcd's just don't cut it anymore, not for prices that come in at BMW 7 series stickers and usability that is stuck in 2001.
We've all been ten percented to death with digital and the thing is if you shoot for commerce no client cares about 99% of the stuff we talk about here.
They care about capturing the moment, moving their own product and doing it on budget.
I really do wonder who Leica talked to before they invested millions in this camera, because I don't know a single professional that is just jumping up and down hoping for 30 mpx, and 1.5 fps, regardless of the format.
It's like Leica, F+H and a lot of these specialty still cameras took the way back machine and ended up in a period of time where everyone drove a chevrolet and the nuclear family ate dinner at the kitchen table.
I don't get it. As artists we're suppose to be visionaries and give people what they "will" want, not what they currently have, but there seems to be this huge group of photographers that are bound by some strange tradition that probably never really was that traditional in the first place.
One of our assistants said yesterday, I hate to see stills die out because I've invested my career shooting stills. I kind of stopped on that one because his "career" is 19 months at this point.
It's all changed, hell the job I'm in production with now, wants real time still and motion images out to bloggers on the day, (and this is an international client), because a handful of bloggers will reach their intended market with two million viewers and do it within hours, vs. traditional print that takes a month of pre production, two weeks of press to delivery for a thousand times more cost.
The world of advertising and editorial is in a world of hurt and confusion and the smart corporations, ad agencies and image makers are learning fast how to capitalize on free media and today the web is almost free. The people that recognize this will move forward, the ones that don't will be selling their profoto 7's for lunch money.
It's all gonna change because anything popular eventually costs more and more. Who woulda thought that people would actually pay for water, or $69 a month to watch teevee, or $75 Levis would be cheap? So bottom line is soon if your gonna read your favorite magazine or watch a video on your laptop, it's gonna cost you and the advertisers something and in the end probably more than it did in the newstand days, but until everything becomes I-tunes and a $1.99 download, today it's free and that's where mass media is going.
Companies are smart and I heard a thing on NPR yesterday that said a large multinational company was looking for executives, but only apply if you have a minimum of something like 20,000 twitter hits and actively blog.
BC
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Many BDs claim to be 16-bit, but are actually 14-bit. Two, If the sensors are only capable of using 12-14 bits of data due to a 12-stop DR, will there be a tangible and visible difference in IQ or file plasticity? Again, we will see.
You may be right because the S/N ratio from the Kodak sensor is only 70db so even on paper, it can't reach 12 stops of DR not to mention the loss in downstream processing.
But since people always compare the S2 to the current flock of MFDBs, it's worth to point out the differences.
My point is, the bar has been raised. The S2's spec has been leapfrogged even before it starts shipping, and it's likely going to be leapfrogged many times before its upgrade program sees daylight.
If Leica wants to match the S2's price with MFDBs, they also need to match its spec and performance.
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The point I'm trying to make is, these 10% upgrades of cameras, lenses, lcd's just don't cut it anymore, not for prices that come in at BMW 7 series stickers and usability that is stuck in 2001.
That's how it's been with cameras, computers and most entertainment peripherals for years: get the product out soon, and tweak each iteration with minor improvements.
I suspect the main reason for this is the massive financial risk of actually producing and shipping a "complete" product. It is much more prudent to release a workable product and see if it sells - if it does, start improving.
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It's pretty funny to read this:
"We've all been ten percented to death with digital and the thing is if you shoot for commerce no client cares about 99% of the stuff we talk about here.
They care about capturing the moment, moving their own product and doing it on budget.
I also know that the people that sell "traditional" still cameras haven't talked to any professional photographer's clients, because they could care less if it's a Leica, a Blad or a Nikon."
Immediately followed by this:
"You may be right because the S/N ratio from the Kodak sensor is only 70db so even on paper, it can't reach 12 stops of DR not to mention the loss in downstream processing..."
To me it's funny - the amount of time spent sweating details which are irrelevant to the client, and which can not be seen either in print or on the web - as long as you have a properly exposed image. I know someone is going to come now and say that I am full of it, but I know I'm not ;-) I know my cliens (some pretty big ones in NYC) don't know or care what the camera is. Their relationship is with the monitor which I am tethered to, not the camera. And when you can look at German Vogue or whatever and see a story which was shot with both a 40mp Phase and a Canon interchangably, and not tell which image was shot with which, well, you get my point. And I would bet money that the client that day had no clue that the two cameras used had much different mp ratings, nor would they have cared much.
Anyway, looks like soon you'll be able to add a $60K Leica kit to the mix - which again will look the same as the rest at almost any print size. Only it'll cost ya more than the Canon and the Phase put together.
Of course you can't listen to me, I've been shooting with a cell phone camera these days...
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It's pretty funny to read this:
"We've all been ten percented to death with digital and the thing is if you shoot for commerce no client cares about 99% of the stuff we talk about here.
They care about capturing the moment, moving their own product and doing it on budget.
I also know that the people that sell "traditional" still cameras haven't talked to any professional photographer's clients, because they could care less if it's a Leica, a Blad or a Nikon."
Immediately followed by this:
"You may be right because the S/N ratio from the Kodak sensor is only 70db so even on paper, it can't reach 12 stops of DR not to mention the loss in downstream processing..."
I thought the same thing, not just this post but many others. There will be an exchange of big picture ideas followed by stultifying minutia. Shocking, almost.
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the S2 is a perfect example for the old saying: too little, too late and...too much.
peter
You may be right because the S/N ratio from the Kodak sensor is only 70db so even on paper, it can't reach 12 stops of DR not to mention the loss in downstream processing.
But since people always compare the S2 to the current flock of MFDBs, it's worth to point out the differences.
My point is, the bar has been raised. The S2's spec has been leapfrogged even before it starts shipping, and it's likely going to be leapfrogged many times before its upgrade program sees daylight.
If Leica wants to match the S2's price with MFDBs, they also need to match its spec and performance.
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the S2 is a perfect example for the old saying: too little, too late and...too much.
peter
It's all about timing.
It would be like GM reintroducing The Hummer right now, but in a V12 engine, and twenty feet long, and four miles a gallon, in a time where the Toyota Prius is the envy of everyone on the block.
It's not that it's Leica's fault really, I'm sure they're kind and talented people. But in these times of depreciating MacMansions and unwanted giant SUV's, my fear is that the S2 was about two years late to come to market. If they were really smart, they'd price it like a Prius and not like a Hummer, and just cross their fingers that they could hold on til the world turns around.
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I thought the same thing, not just this post but many others. There will be an exchange of big picture ideas followed by stultifying minutia. Shocking, almost.
Oh come on, be nice- didn't your mother tell you it takes all kinds?
As for the DSLR vs MFDB issue and whether or not your clients are paying attention, I'd say that is not very interesting concern. The "fancy-fashion photog needing a sprawling Hasselblad kit" myth is pretty much kaput. If a kid does it better than you with his cybershot, and that kid is lucky, that kid will probably soon have your work.
People use what works for them, value is a subjective calculus. I'd bet there are plenty of collectors on this website who dont even use the cameras they pay precious money to buy. Maybe a little fetishistic, and rather funny thing to do, but everyone is free to work with these cameras and resulting pixel goo as they see fit.
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reading all this pontification for some obtuse reason just makes the S2 even more desirable..I guess you all are just pushing my
contrarian buttons.. as good as the nikon or canon files must be, there is no passion there for me..yes I know I am supposed to be a bean counter as well as a creative, and maybe I would have done better financially had I gone a more pedestrian equipment route..but day in and day out of shooting stuff and promoting consumption of stuff people are just land-filling with, well, it made me desire equipment which has some lasting quality and is inspiring to me..in the process.. So, I take back what I said about being an idiot to buy an S2 if you are working small outputs.. I am in-favor and would respect anyone owning a camera which they feel a connection to..something to help keep the small spark of passion in your work even though you are being asked to reshoot a setup for the 3rd time because the client changed their mind. At that point it isn't about money but the creative process and so many things in a commercial shoot are anti creative that the trivial matter of holding, viewing and releasing the shutter is all we have left to gleam some pleasure from, the part of the process that is still our private moment with the subject..it approaches sacred...
when I shot large format and would be behind the ground glass of my p2's I enjoyed every turn of the focus knob or shift knob..and the same can be said of my broncolor strobes..I could have stuck with my normans I started out with.. light is light, but they give back to me on each and every pop. I have had some pleasure from my rollei cameras and lenses as well as the hassy backs but they have been a pain.. crappy masks in the viewfinder, a monorail bench camera with no zero detents, sleeping backs and missed shots..
So bean counting aside, this new camera is desirable, I for one am embracing my desire to have one, it is not about the client or what they need, it is all about what I want and how I want to work and create.. maybe I wont be able to swing the beans to buy the system, I will be only envious of those who do.
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It's all about timing.
It would be like GM reintroducing The Hummer right now, but in a V12 engine, and twenty feet long, and four miles a gallon, in a time where the Toyota Prius is the envy of everyone on the block.
It's not that it's Leica's fault really, I'm sure they're kind and talented people. But in these times of depreciating MacMansions and unwanted giant SUV's, my fear is that the S2 was about two years late to come to market. If they were really smart, they'd price it like a Prius and not like a Hummer, and just cross their fingers that they could hold on til the world turns around.
If you are referring to a block in Detroit where all the car manufacturers reside, yes the Prius is the envy of the "tired" american carmakers. But if we are referring to a block where people live, I doubt a Prius is anyone envy.
I'm not going to buy any Leica S2 personally, but after handling it once for 10 minutes, it gave me the impression it was on another league compared to the hasseblad and not to mention my Mamiya.
It handles compared to current MF bodies, more or less as a new Nikon DSLR handles compared to an FM2 circa 1982. And I bet image quality will be fine as well.
IMO there will be plenty of takers.
I'm pretty sure, also on this forum, there are photographers who on the last few years lost on resale value on their cars, enough to buy one or 2 of these S2 bodies (about 20 grands at least). even if you just bought a "small" 3 series BMW or a small SUV in 2006, that is about what you would have lost in 3 years. If you bought a series 6 or a Range you would have lost 40 grands. I wonder if they are thinking about it or writing multiple post on the BMW boards.
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reading all this pontification for some obtuse reason just makes the S2 even more desirable..I guess you all are just pushing my
contrarian buttons.. as good as the nikon or canon files must be, there is no passion there for me..yes I know I am supposed to be a bean counter as well as a creative, and maybe I would have done better financially had I gone a more pedestrian equipment route..but day in and day out of shooting stuff and promoting consumption of stuff people are just land-filling with, well, it made me desire equipment which has some lasting quality and is inspiring to me..in the process.. So, I take back what I said about being an idiot to buy an S2 if you are working small outputs.. I am in-favor and would respect anyone owning a camera which they feel a connection to..something to help keep the small spark of passion in your work even though you are being asked to reshoot a setup for the 3rd time because the client changed their mind. At that point it isn't about money but the creative process and so many things in a commercial shoot are anti creative that the trivial matter of holding, viewing and releasing the shutter is all we have left to gleam some pleasure from, the part of the process that is still our private moment with the subject..it approaches sacred...
when I shot large format and would be behind the ground glass of my p2's I enjoyed every turn of the focus knob or shift knob..and the same can be said of my broncolor strobes..I could have stuck with my normans I started out with.. light is light, but they give back to me on each and every pop. I have had some pleasure from my rollei cameras and lenses as well as the hassy backs but they have been a pain.. crappy masks in the viewfinder, a monorail bench camera with no zero detents, sleeping backs and missed shots..
So bean counting aside, this new camera is desirable, I for one am embracing my desire to have one, it is not about the client or what they need, it is all about what I want and how I want to work and create.. maybe I wont be able to swing the beans to buy the system, I will be only envious of those who do.
Paul, you've put your finger on some stuff I wasn't able to define there.
I invested in a P45+ with Phamiya, several lenses and a Cambo technical camera with glass too this past year and it hasn't for a moment given me that feeling you refer to. There are moments at the monitor when I go Wow, where I see that those kinds of results could never come from any of the current crop of DSLRs, and there are quiet moments when the precision of the Cambo mounted on an Arca Cube touches my artisanal gland. But by and large the gear is annoying, clunky, impersonal but quirky. Heck, I've had more fun in the past week with an EP-1 than in several months of MFDB.
So yes, if the beans, when counted, add up to an S2 and if the S2 somehow subliminally touches the right button whilst providing the right quality of results 'above the liminal line then I'll have one.
BTW I really like your personal portfolio a lot. IMHO it really shows what happens when people do what they want to do rather than what they think will impress the crowd.
Tim
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I don't know ANYONE who feels any connection with this digital gear, like they did with old film cameras. I think you're simply looking in the wrong place, for satisfaction or connection. Nobody feels it. It's simply a very clinical way to work; much of the accidental surprise elements are not there. It's zeroes and ones. If you think you're gonna find it in that S2, I think you're dead wrong. It's just another soulless, rapidly depreciating computer in your Inventory List -- same with P45+, same with any of it. Welcome to commerce. It is what it is; nobody's going back to film though.
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We all know that if the images are stunning because of the content, it is what matter the most to us and our clients. But the "most" is not the whole story.
I'm pretty sure if all these camera would cost 3000$ each and not a penny more, nobody would say that there is not difference worth bothering across different formats.
But reality is different and you get what you pay for, therefore there is a price difference.
this thread is really funny.
there are the guys who do not want to justify the extra cost, therefore they say they cannot see (or bother with) the the difference and of course their clients even less so.
then there are the guys that may justify the costs difference and they do not have problem to see and appreciate a difference in quality and their clients apparently as well.
Even if my sight is not as good as it used to be, I can still spot a Canon shot next to a DB shot across the magazines pages. Even if I may not justify the 40 grands necessary for a S2 system or a 50mp DB, I do not have hard time admitting that more is more and some people like and want more.
I'm pretty sure the S2, because of its capabilities and features, would make a difference on many shooting conditions, relative to both the DSLR and the larger mp MF backs.
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I don't know ANYONE who feels any connection with this digital gear, like they did with old film cameras. I think you're simply looking in the wrong place, for satisfaction or connection. Nobody feels it. It's simply a very clinical way to work; much of the accidental surprise elements are not there. It's zeroes and ones. If you think you're gonna find it in that S2, I think you're dead wrong. It's just another soulless, rapidly depreciating computer in your Inventory List -- same with P45+, same with any of it. Welcome to commerce. It is what it is; nobody's going back to film though.
I don't know if I could in this since I am no pro, but I absolutely do feel a strong connection to my equipment, every time I pick up the Leica M8 or the Contax 645/Sinar eMotion 54 LV. There is something very satisfying about holding them, setting them up, pressing the shutter. The Leica M8 is another step above the Contax, better integrated, better materials, better build quality, and I imagine that the Leica S2 will also be.
I am glad to hear people finding reasons to like Leica. I am sooooo tired of being perceived as a religious fanatic every time someone opens their mouth about Leica. The cameras are wonderful to use, and give wonderful results. There is absolutely no reason to be blinded to buy a Leica. The Leica M8 also has a very strong trend of first-time ownership, so all the talk about the Leica faithful is also ill-conceived and completely besides the point.
However, I also understand anyone who has reservations about this camera, because as good as it looks on paper, service for pros, the reality of the camera and its construction, and well as software for developing the raws, are all very real concerns. I personally believe that Leica will pull it off and that the system will be viable for them quite quickly, but of course not everyone is so optimistic.
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I don't know ANYONE who feels any connection with this digital gear, like they did with old film cameras. I think you're simply looking in the wrong place, for satisfaction or connection. Nobody feels it. It's simply a very clinical way to work; much of the accidental surprise elements are not there. It's zeroes and ones. If you think you're gonna find it in that S2, I think you're dead wrong. It's just another soulless, rapidly depreciating computer in your Inventory List -- same with P45+, same with any of it. Welcome to commerce. It is what it is; nobody's going back to film though.
Well you know one now! I feel strongly connected to my M8 and its lenses, have felt somewhat intrigued to my Pen and even get moments where my 5DII has some form of personality. My Phase/Mamiya 645D really is just dead metal and plastic.
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I don't know ANYONE who feels any connection with this digital gear, like they did with old film cameras. I think you're simply looking in the wrong place, for satisfaction or connection. Nobody feels it. It's simply a very clinical way to work; much of the accidental surprise elements are not there. It's zeroes and ones. If you think you're gonna find it in that S2, I think you're dead wrong. It's just another soulless, rapidly depreciating computer in your Inventory List -- same with P45+, same with any of it. Welcome to commerce. It is what it is; nobody's going back to film though.
Oh please don't go on
I went for digital kicking and screaming three years back - in retrospect not entirely sure why. I'm no Luddite by any stretch, and enjoy gadgets. But my recent LL forum threads about the lack of sharpness of the Canon 24-105mm f/4L, and my on-going seven month saga to get a shipment on a 5D MkII I paid for in January have just exacerbated my (perhaps irrational) longing for going back to (MF) film.
A major part of this has to do with the fact that none of the cameras today are "complete" - they all lack some fundamental feature or are priced way out of reach of serious amateurs like myself. This means the 10% incremental improvement per generation are "necessary" for many photographers. From specs I'm hoping the 5D MkII to be the closest compromise, but I'm afraid the poor AF will be the feature which will make me upgrade the MkIII in three years. I'm aware lack of accurate AF on digital doesn't compute with me being perfectly fine with manual focus on MF film, but I already conceded being irrational on the subject .
According to my Lightroom catalogue only 0.5% of my (scanned) shots are with Mamiya C220, 2% 35mm film, rest digital, yet five of my top 10 shots are with film instead of digital - 3 of them MF. It appears it's not the volume which counts, at least for me. Even then I'm quite format-agnostic when shooting: I don't get some special kicks from using film compared to digital. Well, perhaps with the C220 I do.
Therefore I'm currently expanding my MF lens selection, and even thought about upgrading to LF film.
Three digital cameras do raise some serious interest in me, though, but they all have a major shortcoming which turns them into unattractive alternatives to MF film: Leica S2 (price), Sigma DP2 (non-interchangeable lens) and Olympus E-P1 (it's not ready, yet).
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Well you know one now! I feel strongly connected to my M8 and its lenses, have felt somewhat intrigued to my Pen and even get moments where my 5DII has some form of personality. My Phase/Mamiya 645D really is just dead metal and plastic.
i understand fully what you are saying. it was really fun to USE the m8, very nice experience. it was often less fun to see the files with color shifts, weird white balance, lousy medium-high iso performance, focus inaccuracies (for the 50mm-90mm lenses, my fault...),viewfinder inaccuracies, moiree patterns and finally the shutter failure on a laos trip. fortunately i had the D3 as a backup. was i bonded to the m8? yes, but its defects were a great remedy.
peter
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the S2 is a perfect example for the old saying: too little, too late and...too much.
peter
I cannot understand that "too little". David Farkas has explained very well the strong (an unique) points of this camera. But the real "must" of the Leica S2 are the lenses... Did you see those MTF graphs? They are just incredible. Leica means lens design and manufacture. Quite expensive, it is true, but just the best.
The software for RAW reading isn't so important because those files wouldn't need any corrections, AND the DNG specification has evolved, now allowing for corrections. With Hasselblad, for instance, you are trapped with Phocus for CA or distortion corrections, with Leica you are free. I think they will make full use of the last DNG specification.
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I cannot understand that "too little". David Farkas has explained very well the strong (an unique) points of this camera. But the real "must" of the Leica S2 are the lenses... Did you see those MTF graphs? They are just incredible. Leica means lens design and manufacture. Quite expensive, it is true, but just the best.
The software for RAW reading isn't so important because those files wouldn't need any corrections, AND the DNG specification has evolved, now allowing for corrections. With Hasselblad, for instance, you are trapped with Phocus for CA or distortion corrections, with Leica you are free. I think they will make full use of the last DNG specification.
Will they really ? I will believe it when I see it. I mean the strong points of the S2 are the lenses and that's about it. I'm pretty sure we won't see any high ISO mircales. You will not be able to change the back. So after 4 years you have to buy a new body for another 20k ? I am absolutly cetain that if the body itself is more than 15k than it is the death sentence for Leica. It's not that I don't Leica, I mean I love my M8 and all my Leica lenses. I just lost my trust into their digital side.
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Of course, everyone loves a good spec sheet. I'm sure Leica brings that to the table. However, I simply want to see how many people will rush into line when each lens is announced with a final selling price of five to ten thousand US dollars each. Yes, people will rush to the counter to get out the baby oil and kleenex, over the MTF charts, but will they also sign their name on the check, afterwards? Will enough devoted amateurs do this to prop up a company the size of Leica, to ensure they'll be there tomorrow, to service their camera five years from now?
That is my question. Did they simply ignore the digital revolution for so long that they fell way way behind, and now, their timing is two to three years behind the times?
I also find it interesting: one of the most expensive cameras ever comes to market, and there's no interest from pros. The only interest seems to be from amateurs. What does that tell you about the track record of Leica?
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Of course, everyone loves a good spec sheet. I'm sure Leica brings that to the table. However, I simply want to see how many people will rush into line when each lens is announced with a final selling price of five to ten thousand US dollars each. Yes, people will rush to the counter to get out the baby oil and kleenex, over the MTF charts, but will they also sign their name on the check, afterwards? Will enough devoted amateurs do this to prop up a company the size of Leica, to ensure they'll be there tomorrow, to service their camera five years from now?
That is my question. Did they simply ignore the digital revolution for so long that they fell way way behind, and now, their timing is two to three years behind the times?
I also find it interesting: one of the most expensive cameras ever comes to market, and there's no interest from pros. The only interest seems to be from amateurs. What does that tell you about the track record of Leica?
do you really think the top 20% percent of our industry is equally represented here on this subforum? The S2 demographics surely must be aimed at the top professionals..nowhere in their pr or marketing have I seen any desire for Leica to appeal to the populist mass of shooters, who are lucky to get 500 aday for themselves let alone a line item on their invoice for equipment.. there will be those in the mass that will want a leica but only the top tier will spring for it.. I think leica would be happy to have just a small cut of this pro upper level.. again there are more out there than here on LL..
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I vote otherwise. I know this is a 'how long is a piece of string' topic but many people I know have made and exhibited M8 20 x 30 prints that have knocked our socks off. People started noticing this soon after the camera was released.
Have you tried it?
Tim
I have an M8 and a DMR but I find that 14x17 is about as large as I go with them. I also have a CFV that I will take to 20 x30, but not the M8. What are people doing to get a fine art 20 x 30 print out of an M8 file?
Jonathan
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I have an M8 and a DMR but I find that 14x17 is about as large as I go with them. I also have a CFV that I will take to 20 x30, but not the M8. What are people doing to get a fine art 20 x 30 print out of an M8 file?
Jonathan
My workflow is this:
1) Convert DNG to 8-bit sRGB highest quality JPG (gasp) at native size (no uprezzing) in C1 or LR
2) Send to my lab printer (Durst Theta 51)
3) Admire great 20x30
Pretty simple really. Check out iPrintsPro.com (http://www.iprintspro.com) for more info.
David
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My workflow is this:
1) Convert DNG to 8-bit sRGB highest quality JPG (gasp) at native size (no uprezzing) in C1 or LR
David
Thanks David, I'm really intrigued by this. Convert to JPG, WOW!
Jonathan
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do you really think the top 20% percent of our industry is equally represented here on this subforum? The S2 demographics surely must be aimed at the top professionals.
Maybe not, though some of the "top 20%" reads this and other forums, they just don't participate. That's not their style to give information, it's 180 from that.
A lot of this depends on who you call the top 20%.
I can tell you that the photographers most of the people idolize own very little if anything, especially medium format cameras. They call the rental department or a digital tech, beat the price down as low as possible (actually their studio manager or producer does that) and then they tell someone to make this damn thing work.
If camera companies had to rely on sales for the "top 20%" the only cameras offered would be used RZ's or Pentax 6x7's and the only retailer would be KEH and consequently I doubt very seriously if the Leica S2 is aimed at this group, because if it is they're only going to sell 4 of them.
But, photographers historically think too much about what other photographers are doing or think. That's not their market, cause I know few photographers that hire photographers.
The day you have a paying client that ask for (heck even mentions) the Leica is the day that you start thinking about selling the BMW and the sailboat to buy one.
Funny thing is I have a few clients that have already mentioned the RED, but until the PO is written I guess the sailboat is safe.
BC
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I can't understand why people keep on menitioning that they don't want to upgrade their camera bodies every three years or so, compared to the price of the back the camera costs nothing. Imagine the 1ds Mk3 sensor in a 1DS Mk1 Body, the least thing I want. Current MF bodies are pathetic, AF is on par with an EOS 500, Meter Systems are 5 years late, TTL Flash is not really available, the list goes on. I just threw away my Leaf AFI, a total piece of crap, meant to be the most evolved MF Camera available.
If I can have a great modern camera with current features with a current sensor built in for about the same money or a little bit more as a current back with an outdated camera, I know what to choose.
Michael keeps on mentioning how his p65 puts a strain on his shooting technique or his choice of tripod, but that also means, current MF cameras are inadequate. Massive mirror slap, crap AF, no Image stabilising, there is so much room for improvement, it needs to happen on the camera side. the solution can't be a slip-on magnifier for the viewfinder.
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mention leica and people will become emotional....
i have no doubt that the S2 will be a great camera. the lenses will be even better. shooting DNG is amazing because it makes the workflow and processing so much easier...the S2 will blow every H and mamiya out of the water...in every way....which really is not hard because they are all just retrofitted MF cameras...the S2 is not...it simply is a modern larger format digital camera made to produce ultimate quality...which i am sure it will....
i totally want one...i am sure the S2 and i could have a beautiful and fruitful relationship....
but that totally isn't the point....i want many things....i could build a pool and raise my property value (and maybe sell my house for what i bought it for....)
the fact is that there is no need for the S2 in professional photography...at all....the guy out of school with the 5DII will be able to do the same jobs...faster and cheaper, the client will not see a difference and the guy can shoot some video with his back-up body just so , because who knows....(which is what clients like btw)....bill boards and signs are more and more LCD, the only growing ad area is web, nobody has ever needed a 35mpix file for an ad....
everytime i pick up the m8 i get a warm and fuzzy feeling....i WANT to touch it....i don't even use the voigtlander lenses because the leica ones are just so much.....more...leica....i even look past ridiculous problems because of the FEEL....but i really don't use it much these days....
i never get any of this when i pick up the 5DII....but i am blown away by the files every time.....there are NO problems...AT all....cranck it to 3200....no problem....i don't even use the grip.....i love that without it it looks like a cheap consumer DSLR......but hey, even client recognize it! and they know that all is good! the last time i shot with my dsIII, the actor i was shooting asked about my gear and was disappointed that i did not have the 5Dii (because he had just shot something and all the DPs had their 5DIIs and were just raving about them...)...i thought about explaining that the dsIII was 3 times the price....and then i thought about it...
i always thought the 5D was the best camera ever made....it really gave everybody the opportunity to create professional work...no excuses...one of my assistants put it differently...the 5D really opened the sewers he said....really basically the same thing...
the 5DII has completely turned it all on its head....and the 5DIII will continue that trend....so i just don't see how anyone can justify spending that money....other then they just WANT it and have to have it, which is totally fine and good and i can relate...i buy tons of things i just WANT....i just don't try and justify it as necessary...or claim i can see the difference between DMF and DSLR on a 9x11 printed page.....that is just BS....i have 10 years of digital capture in various sizes....10mpix is a golden size up to 11x14 unless one needs to crop (and with the m8s frames that comes down to a 9x12 because there is so much cropping to be done...)....of course you can see the difference between a 20x30 from a m8 and a P45....but i would not print that size from a m8.....if i could do that i might just shoot everything with the m8 and forget about all the problems just to satisfy that leica need.....
anyway...here is another way to spend that extra money (not buying the S2)....hire a film student and a geek/blogger and have them turn you into a web celebrity....it is cheaper and will get you the jobs you want so you can easily justify the S2.....
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It amazes me how people are pronouncing their feelings on a camera that is not out on the market yet. It also amazes me that people wax poetically on the fimes from there camera saying how great they always are. I shoot canon all id series and both 5d cameras and leica m8 . There are situiations I find the 5d mk 11 files mush, tungsten light outdoors. when I shoot at iso 800 the m8 in tungsten light blows the canon files away. On the other hand outdoors shooting subjects in back light I prefer the 5d over the leica. the right tool for the right job. I hope the s2 is great but from charts or sensor studies I think nothing when I shoot a camera see how it feels and see the results that is what will tell me about a camera. Reading on the internet about something tells me nothing.
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It amazes me how people are pronouncing their feelings on a camera that is not out on the market yet. It also amazes me that people wax poetically on the fimes from there camera saying how great they always are. I shoot canon all id series and both 5d cameras and leica m8 . There are situiations I find the 5d mk 11 files mush, tungsten light outdoors. when I shoot at iso 800 the m8 in tungsten light blows the canon files away. On the other hand outdoors shooting subjects in back light I prefer the 5d over the leica. the right tool for the right job. I hope the s2 is great but from charts or sensor studies I think nothing when I shoot a camera see how it feels and see the results that is what will tell me about a camera. Reading on the internet about something tells me nothing.
So, don't read.
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It amazes me how people are pronouncing their feelings on a camera that is not out on the market yet. It also amazes me that people wax poetically on the fimes from there camera saying how great they always are. I shoot canon all id series and both 5d cameras and leica m8 . There are situiations I find the 5d mk 11 files mush, tungsten light outdoors. when I shoot at iso 800 the m8 in tungsten light blows the canon files away. On the other hand outdoors shooting subjects in back light I prefer the 5d over the leica. the right tool for the right job. I hope the s2 is great but from charts or sensor studies I think nothing when I shoot a camera see how it feels and see the results that is what will tell me about a camera. Reading on the internet about something tells me nothing.
Having a bad day? I am not sure what the difference is between you not wanting to read the opinions of others, and posting your opinion for others to read?
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The other thing that I don't see discussed here is leasing. I love leasing. I just got a new laptop and put it on a lease. In our professional photo lab we lease 250K Durst printing machines, as well as 6K Epsons. I lease my car. Not only can you pay over time, but there are some really great tax advantages as well (usually, the entire monthly payment is fully deductible - talk to your accountant first). If a full S2 systems costs you $900-1000 a month, you could offset that monthly cost with jobs, client charges, or rental fees to other photographers.
What's your monthly payment on that laptop and how long is the lease?
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your workflow tells a story about your quality requirements. peter
My workflow is this:
1) Convert DNG to 8-bit sRGB highest quality JPG (gasp) at native size (no uprezzing) in C1 or LR
2) Send to my lab printer (Durst Theta 51)
3) Admire great 20x30
Pretty simple really. Check out iPrintsPro.com (http://www.iprintspro.com) for more info.
David
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What's your monthly payment on that laptop and how long is the lease?
I believe my lease is about $150/mo for 36 months, with a $1 buyout, which includes the computer, 2x 256GB SSD drives, tax, shipping, and a few pieces of software.
So I'm paying a bit more over time with interest, but I don't have to fork over > $4K today. Also, I'm using pre-tax dollars to pay for it, based on money that I create as a result of having the right "tool" for the job. And, the monthly payment amount is a full line-itme tax deduction.
David
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your workflow tells a story about your quality requirements. peter
Peter,
I think if you knew me, or saw the work that I produce, you wouldn't be making insuations like this. I would happily prove to you the quality of my output for either my own files or yours.
Perhaps I over-simplified. What I didn't mention is that the Kodak pro lab software we use to RIP the files cost about $25K per year. Each printer costs $250K. Everything is completely color managed end-to-end where we can make one correction and output to different printers and/or on different papers and have an exact match. For our lab, we are printing literally thousands of images per day, color correcting each and every single one by eye. Our print technicians have decades of experience. For myself, I've been involved in digital imaging for 19 years professionally. I sat on the advisory board that created the first digital minilab printer, and worked for Kodak supporting digital imaging systems. Photography and digital imaging aren't my armchair hobby.
In my two decades of experience I have found that simple is good. I see files from photgraphers who use complicated workflows with multiple steps, using multiple programs, that ultimately yield no discernable difference in final results. Obviously, if you are using a workflow that you are comfortable and happy using, by all means, keep using it. Everyone works in different ways and that is one of the great things about photography.
David
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I'm thinking the Scarlet will turn it all sideways anyway and what we're working with today will look a hell of a lot different in a few years, (probably less) and even if RED doesn't become the standard, it's going to make the lower (and higher) priced competitors open their eyes, pop their head out of the sand and run to the computer to design something that competes.
Then again in the world of digital cameras, maybe not.
BC
For a large portion of the market this is true. Once more clients, (and photographers), understand how these cameras work, it will become very popular to shoot this way. Personally I can't wait to get a Scarlet just for this reason. Let's face it, for the web, (and the movie industry), we are finding out that a final image size of 2MP is all we need. If this trend continues, then all of these high end cameras will be only for fine art photographers and hobbyists, which unfortunately is probably too small a market for any company to continue to profit in.
Hope I'm wrong about the last line, but it doubt it.
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If this trend continues, then all of these high end cameras will be only for fine art photographers and hobbyists, which unfortunately is probably too small a market for any company to continue to profit in.
I agree with this sentiment. Even on this forum, people lubing up, just waiting for this new Leica, at a five figure "investment", yet when they say what they're going to do with it, they say "shoot landscapes at 30x40". And since I know there aren't that many Gursky's in the world today, it just makes it hard to understand how the math works -- you're spending how much in order to sell a print for $500, if that? Makes you wonder where their real income comes from, and where that disposable income comes from, and that commercial photography is way down the line in terms of "profitable careers".
And I thought you could only use the word "investment" when you sold a product later on for MORE than you paid for it initially? So how could a P45 or A75 or Sinar back or Hy6 be an investment?
Yet, if any brand is going to defy the odds, it will be Leica. They are the world's best at making the Kool-Aid and perpetuating the hype. Each camera body ships with its own marble pedestal, to enable proper worshiping.
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And I thought you could only use the word "investment" when you sold a product later on for MORE than you paid for it initially? So how could a P45 or A75 or Sinar back or Hy6 be an investment?
Nah ... last year, when I realized the depreciation on my underwater photo kit was less than the loss on my portfolio of financial assets, I sold the whole thing. Got about 70 cents on the dollar.
I was only too happy to explain to my wife that my "investment" in underwater photography had outperformed our stocks and bonds.
On a "serious" note ... the return calculation for any investment needs to consider the interim cash flows generated and not just the entry and exit ... so you can have a positive return on investment even if there is principal degradation as long as the interim cash flows are large enough to overwhelm the depreciation. Most business investments depreciate, but the hope is that the interim cash flows are more than enough to cover the total cost on a time and risk weighted basis ...
(sorry, I'm a finance guy at heart ...)
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Yet, if any brand is going to defy the odds, it will be Leica. They are the world's best at making the Kool-Aid and perpetuating the hype. Each camera body ships with its own marble pedestal, to enable proper worshiping.
their fanboys and salesmen are creating the hype beyond any rational and against the proven leica digital track record. can you imagine the same happen with hasselblad or phase?
impossible. people become very irrational when it comes to leica. i guess it is still the old rangefinder myth, but leica will have a tough sailing in (almost) MF territory,
where facts and IQ count more than myths...when it boils down to 30-50K investments. i am still appalled by the m8 failures, where i let myself be carried away and invested
heavily (25k USD at least) into a heavily faulty system (my fault, agreed....), featuring about every deficiency a digital camera can have. this combined with the arrogance
of leica (and their fanboys) really put me off. some users claim to get excellent 30x20 inch prints out of it, i just don't. nikon D3x and H3DII 50, what a relief...unfortunately much more
'conventional' than a leica. i'd rather opt for less coolness and more IQ (and i am not comparing 10mpx to 50mpx files here, just prints and people's claims).
peter
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their fanboys and salesmen are creating the hype beyond any rational and against the proven leica digital track record. can you imagine the same happen with hasselblad or phase?
impossible. people become very irrational when it comes to leica. i guess it is still the old rangefinder myth, but leica will have a tough sailing in (almost) MF territory,
where facts and IQ count more than myths...when it boils down to 30-50K investments. i am still appalled by the m8 failures, where i let myself be carried away and invested
heavily (25k USD at least) into a heavily faulty system (my fault, agreed....), featuring about every deficiency a digital camera can have. this combined with the arrogance
of leica (and their fanboys) really put me off. some users claim to get excellent 30x20 inch prints out of it, i just don't. nikon D3x and H3DII 50, what a relief...unfortunately much more
'conventional' than a leica. i'd rather opt for less coolness and more IQ (and i am not comparing 10mpx to 50mpx files here, just prints and people's claims).
peter
As is usual in these discussions, the detractors are far louder, more numerous, and dubious in their claims than the fans. There are reasons to like these cameras. I cannot think of a single decent reason for posting negative posts like this, however. Got nothing better to do in your spare time than picking on Leica?
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As is usual in these discussions, the detractors are far louder, more numerous, and dubious in their claims than the fans. There are reasons to like these cameras. I cannot think of a single decent reason for posting negative posts like this, however. Got nothing better to do in your spare time than picking on Leica?
disagree. there seem to be an inordinate amount of Leica boosters on this thread talking up a camera that has not been released, that nobody has really used, and has zero pro usage track record. is that not dubious above all? for a hard working professional who needs a bullet proof workflow and results, to invest in that would be foolhardy, at least in its early days.
I want more choice in cameras and welcome the break from type, but have a brain I wish to keep engaged when dealing with $25-40,000 investments - Yes, even with Leica (or Apple).
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disagree. there seem to be an inordinate amount of Leica boosters on this thread talking up a camera that has not been released, that nobody has really used, and has zero pro usage track record. is that not dubious above all? for a hard working professional who needs a bullet proof workflow and results, to invest in that would be foolhardy, at least in its early days.
I want more choice in cameras and welcome the break from type, but have a brain I wish to keep engaged when dealing with $25-40,000 investments - Yes, even with Leica (or Apple).
There is nothing dubious about a camera with no track record. It is what it is, and how could it have a track record? It hasn't been released yet. There is nothing dubious about hoping that it will turn out well. There is nothing dubious in believing that it will probably turn out well. There is nothing dubious in recommending that someone who needs what it offers hold off on decision-making until it comes out, to see how it will turn out. There is nothing dubious about liking Leica cameras, or the results that they give. No one here is going to spend $25000-40000 without having their brain on, not even the "Leica boosters". I don't know how you got that impression.
There would be something dubious about recommending that someone buy it without waiting to see how things turn out. There would be something dubious in promoting the camera as the second coming of Christ. This is however not what is happening here. There are some hopefuls, and some optimists, but I don't see anyone here saying that the camera is everything anyone (or someone) could want. The opinions offered here are well on the side of the realistic, just hopeful.
There is, to my mind, something very wrong with going into every thread about Leica cameras and put the cameras down, put the company down, and call the fans religious, blind, or use terms like "the Leica faithful" or "Leica boosters". I am not a "Leica booster", I am a very happy owner sharing my opinion and experience. We are not talking about a religion here, just about a special camera, admittedly one with both good and bad sides. I am so tired of hearing the detractors spew their verbiage for no apparent reason. If you like the camera, buy it. if you don't, don't buy it. But why badmouth it? It is what it is.
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This thread proves that cameras with a track record will alway find it hard to compete with a myth.
Vaporware wins the marketing battle every time, as every journo knows. That's why preannouncements are made.
Edmund
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disagree. there seem to be an inordinate amount of Leica boosters on this thread talking up a camera that has not been released, that nobody has really used, and has zero pro usage track record. is that not dubious above all? for a hard working professional who needs a bullet proof workflow and results, to invest in that would be foolhardy, at least in its early days.
I want more choice in cameras and welcome the break from type, but have a brain I wish to keep engaged when dealing with $25-40,000 investments - Yes, even with Leica (or Apple).
if leica received more realistic user feedback they -and in particular their owership- might think about themselves differently, with less arrogance and less holy grail spirit. this could even lead them to get the pricing of their cameras down to acceptable and competitive standards.
peter
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I came from Pentax to Leica and bought one before I even knew about "the myth" (in Germany, Leica is less known than in the States). Later I switched to the M-series, it's the far less versatile system (no macro, no tele) and has certain shortcomings due to it's fundamental conception. The M8 is still by far the smallest digital camera with such an IQ and the lenses are simply unique and spectacular (small, too). Users wanted a digital version of the M and the engineers weren't allowed to wait till technology was ready - so we have a small sensor and no effective IR-filtering. That's not the fault of Leica, customers wanted a digital M. Mr. Lee seemed to released the camera a few months early or Jenoptik changed certain parts, we will never know and they squetched MFDB-electronics into a tiny body. The IQ up to 640ASA ist pristine, although the files are small, you can print only up 22x33cm and fine-art-print-standards. I have my M8 since over 2 years and except for their CS, which seems to be unable to put the leather coating precisly (I have a 1/3mm gap since the recall) it's a fine camera (no crashes, no failures whatsoever) with unique strengths and weaknesses. You have to know what you want to do with it! It's not the unviersal solution, it's for a certain kind of photography. Of course I hope for an improved M9 and as far as we know, this camera will come when the technology is ready.
Till that, Leica chose the opposite direction, they tried modular designs, they "digitized" a over 50 years old system but with the S-System they created a new digital system from the ground up, so that people who are not happy with the limitations of the modular/"digitized" solutions get a closed system without these limitations - and people are complaining again... The fact is: With Nikon/Canon-Pro-gear people accepted closed systems, they even accepted closing a modular system (Hasselblad) and as already said, Leica tried the other direction before. Most Pros don't use the modularity of MFDBs, they don't use technical cameras, most of them want MF-quality with the convenience of a smaller, closed system. But nobody wanted to invest into an entirely new system (were in 2009 and only on back is near full-frame, all other MF-solutions are crop-systems and N/C still try to sell >6k$-pixelmonsters with 1,5k$-zooms!). Well, Mr. Kaufmann did and guess what, people are unhappy again...
They insourced the whole R&D-process, chose an expensive adapted ASIC-processor. Why? Because they just want to be arrogant and throw money out of the window? No, because it's the only way to solve certain problems of the DMR/M8.
You cannot satisfy everybodys demands, next month we will know more about the S-System and hopefully it's a worthy addition to the market and not another "me too"-system or faulty-design. It's the propably the last chance in a long time to give pros/demanding photographers another choice! It will take a few months and we will know more. What we did was just speculating on the basis of technical data and our impressions of prototypes. We weren't talking about reliability or other things we certainly don't know yet!
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[!--quoteo(post=298863:date=Jul 19 2009, 01:43 PM:name=)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE ( @ Jul 19 2009, 01:43 PM) [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=298863\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]I am so tired of hearing the detractors spew their verbiage for no apparent reason. If you like the camera, buy it. if you don't, don't buy it. But why badmouth it? It is what it is.[/quote]
yes ... i'm so tired of hearing the cheerleaders spew their adorations for no apparent reason.
if you don't like the camera, don't buy it. and if you do, buy it. but why goodmouth it?
it is what it is. (or more accurately ... "what it is" is yet to be determined)
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nobody is badmouthing leica....some are simply discussing the yet unproven concept of the S2 in a professional photography context 2009....which is questionable....most here seem to agree that we actually all WANT this to succeed....because we all at one point or another have had a certain leica bug....
what we do know is that the lenses will be great....what we HOPE is that the body/capture/digital end will be a lot smoother then the m8 release...
i really hope leica has learned from that fiasco...it is a lot easier to sell a camera everybody is waiting for to use their lenses on the a completely new system...for the highest end (even for leica) and actually not even for their market....one could argue that the only professional cameras leica have built is the m line for photojournalists....the S2 is made for commercial pros, which is a new market for leica....
sorry, as good as the R line was, i have never seen or heard of a pro using it, although i am sure there are/were some because of its obvious advantages (it always comes down to the lenses with leica...)....
i am afraid the S2 will fail inspite of being maybe the best "MF" system ever made....probably because it is the last....
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their fanboys and salesmen are creating the hype beyond any rational and against the proven leica digital track record. can you imagine the same happen with hasselblad or phase?
impossible. people become very irrational when it comes to leica. i guess it is still the old rangefinder myth, but leica will have a tough sailing in (almost) MF territory,
where facts and IQ count more than myths...when it boils down to 30-50K investments. i am still appalled by the m8 failures, where i let myself be carried away and invested
heavily (25k USD at least) into a heavily faulty system (my fault, agreed....), featuring about every deficiency a digital camera can have. this combined with the arrogance
of leica (and their fanboys) really put me off. some users claim to get excellent 30x20 inch prints out of it, i just don't. nikon D3x and H3DII 50, what a relief...unfortunately much more
'conventional' than a leica. i'd rather opt for less coolness and more IQ (and i am not comparing 10mpx to 50mpx files here, just prints and people's claims).
peter
I'm sorry you've had a bad Leica experience I really am - but you just sound bitter! You seemed very quick to attack David Farkas and me on the subject of print quality. I didn't bother to defend myself, David merely did what you might have done before taking a pop at him, i.e. he just outlined his credentials, which are generally well known hereabouts.
The facts are:
David gets great 20 x 30's
I get them, and I exhibit them and I sell them
David Adamson, one of the world's finest digital printmakers and a man who has made prints for exhibits for many of the biggest name photographers alive and dead, gets great prints to even larger sizes. See this thread: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/...-m8-prints.html (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/9022-30-x-40-inch-m8-prints.html)
We all have different ways of doing it but believe me it can be done. I am one of the people who bought an M8 first, was most critical of certain aspects of its performance, but three bodies later (now on an 8.2) it is still the single best camera I have ever used. It was my first Leica, and I had never previously thought of owning one.
So to call people like me 'fanboys' is just daft - and like I say it makes you sound bitter. 'Fanboy' implies that we make purchases on the basis of delusional brand loyalty rather than product quality. In other words it's a pretty rude thing to say and you are not able to substantiate it. Seems like poor manners to me.
Tim
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I think the problem is that you are discussing a camera THAT DOES NOT EXIST
so anyone singing its praises here is doing so on rumor, paper specifications, and their aspirations for it.
I guess people would argue they can make an informed guess from Leica's legacy and 'track record', so:
is Leica (M series in general) one of the great cameras of all time? - yes, unquestionably.
is every camera Leica ever designed the best ever of its type - no, its not, eg: R series
are some Leica lenses among the best in the world? yes, undoubtedly some are.
is every lens Leica ever designed/released the best of its type? no, certainly not.
moreover:
has Leica got a perfect track record of releasing digital products that work out the box from version 1.0 for a pro to rely on from Day 1? - no they don't.
has Leica got significant RAW software experience for a modern ultra reliable cross platform digital workflow, without C1 to fall back on - no they haven't.
with all that in mind: is the S2 a great camera with great lenses and a great workflow to deliver class leading results? - completely unknown - it is not released... camera, lenses, software. none of it is in the real world. its all just hot air to so far.
I would LOVE the S2 to be a great camera, I am lucky enough to have the resources to buy one if I so need, if its everything we all hope it to be, then I may well do, BUT till then, its all hearsay, paper statistics and wishful thinking, for anyone to insist otherwise is foolhardy.
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tim,
i had good 20x30 inch print quality come out of certain D2H files, sometimes also with minimal workflow. it is a complete scientific triviality
that 'low information content' images do not require high megapixel count sensor imaging to be well represented in prints. but it is another
scientific triviality that high information 'content' images need high megapixel recording. certainly not everybody is into landscapes and other
high information content stuff and those may very well be better served with 10-15 mpx. the m8 falls into that range but -as far as i am concerned-
disqualifies itself for other image deficiencies.
certainly, the medium format industry is in a big crisis and the timing of the S2 launch is the worst possible. it is a pity that leica enters a lost race
which only detracts them from their main potential strength: designing and building lenses, preferably (IMHO) for nikon and canon.
horses for courses.
peter
I'm sorry you've had a bad Leica experience I really am - but you just sound bitter! You seemed very quick to attack David Farkas and me on the subject of print quality. I didn't bother to defend myself, David merely did what you might have done before taking a pop at him, i.e. he just outlined his credentials, which are generally well known hereabouts.
The facts are:
David gets great 20 x 30's
I get them, and I exhibit them and I sell them
David Adamson, one of the world's finest digital printmakers and a man who has made prints for exhibits for many of the biggest name photographers alive and dead, gets great prints to even larger sizes. See this thread: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/...-m8-prints.html (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/9022-30-x-40-inch-m8-prints.html)
We all have different ways of doing it but believe me it can be done. I am one of the people who bought an M8 first, was most critical of certain aspects of its performance, but three bodies later (now on an 8.2) it is still the single best camera I have ever used. It was my first Leica, and I had never previously thought of owning one.
So to call people like me 'fanboys' is just daft - and like I say it makes you sound bitter. 'Fanboy' implies that we make purchases on the basis of delusional brand loyalty rather than product quality. In other words it's a pretty rude thing to say and you are not able to substantiate it. Seems like poor manners to me.
Tim
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tim,
... it is a complete scientific triviality
that 'low information content' images do not require high megapixel count sensor imaging to be well represented in prints. but it is another
scientific triviality that high information 'content' images need high megapixel recording. ....
peter
Thank you Peter - in all my years of making images with everything from a Ricoh to a 4 x 5 film camera via an M8, 1DSIII and a P45+ mounted on a technical camera with Schneider glass, of exhibiting, publishing and selling these images (very often landscapes) around the world, I had never realized the above vital facts. I am in your debt. And thanks for the apology.
Tim
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Thank you Peter - in all my years of making images with everything from a Ricoh to a 4 x 5 film camera via an M8, 1DSIII and a P45+ mounted on a technical camera with Schneider glass, of exhibiting, publishing and selling these images (very often landscapes) around the world, I had never realized the above vital facts. I am in your debt. And thanks for the apology.
Tim
tim, i certainly did not want to insult you. i just oppose the point of view 'take an m8, go out and take pictures, do minimal pp, print 20x30 and be enjoy the wonderful print'. you and i have the m8 and P45 comparism.
peter
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if leica received more realistic user feedback they -and in particular their owership- might think about themselves differently, with less arrogance and less holy grail spirit. this could even lead them to get the pricing of their cameras down to acceptable and competitive standards.
peter
agreed
if Leica would only listen but I doubt it!
on the other hand I think they know they don't stand a chance against Nikon or Canon
but maybe they are happy and confident to compete with Phase and Hasselblad that is why being in
between with their specs (no men's land) feels fit.
IMO Leica is like a Hercules beautiful to look at
now imagine Hercules a coward
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tim, i certainly did not want to insult you. i just oppose the point of view 'take an m8, go out and take pictures, do minimal pp, print 20x30 and be enjoy the wonderful print'. you and i have the m8 and P45 comparism.
peter
Peter,
If you're ever in Miami, I'd be happy to give you a tour of the lab and show you my workflow and the corresponding results.
David
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I think the problem is that you are discussing a camera THAT DOES NOT EXIST
so anyone singing its praises here is doing so on rumor, paper specifications, and their aspirations for it.
I guess people would argue they can make an informed guess from Leica's legacy and 'track record', so:
is Leica (M series in general) one of the great cameras of all time? - yes, unquestionably.
is every camera Leica ever designed the best ever of its type - no, its not, eg: R series
are some Leica lenses among the best in the world? yes, undoubtedly some are.
is every lens Leica ever designed/released the best of its type? no, certainly not.
moreover:
has Leica got a perfect track record of releasing digital products that work out the box from version 1.0 for a pro to rely on from Day 1? - no they don't.
has Leica got significant RAW software experience for a modern ultra reliable cross platform digital workflow, without C1 to fall back on - no they haven't.
with all that in mind: is the S2 a great camera with great lenses and a great workflow to deliver class leading results? - completely unknown - it is not released... camera, lenses, software. none of it is in the real world. its all just hot air to so far.
I would LOVE the S2 to be a great camera, I am lucky enough to have the resources to buy one if I so need, if its everything we all hope it to be, then I may well do, BUT till then, its all hearsay, paper statistics and wishful thinking, for anyone to insist otherwise is foolhardy.
funny, but the camera I held and shot with seemed real to me..but I am one of those that believe we did in fact go to the moon..as crazy as that seems.
regarding track record.. I am one of only 3 thousand that bought a leica dmr..I have no experience with the m8, but have only good experiences with my dmr.
someone mentioned that the dmr is not used professionally..I have used my dmr professionally, I think a few others have too..but that could be a rumor too.
I don't think anyone that has been praising leica efforts regarding the S2 are as full of hot air or foolhardy as you claim, I am somewhat amused by the rabid
reaction some here have to the positive comments of a few folks that are excited by this new camera, we shall all see how the files and software measure up.
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Peter,
If you're ever in Miami, I'd be happy to give you a tour of the lab and show you my workflow and the corresponding results.
David
David
some of us may actually take you up on that offer
don't worry I'll buy the first round after
am
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David
some of us may actually take you up on that offer
don't worry I'll buy the first round after
am
You're welcome to come on by anytime.
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funny, but the camera I held and shot with seemed real to me..
Until it ships I don't think anyone knows what this camera will be like (which has been repeated about 400 times here) and experienced about 4 billion times by digital first adopters.
Still, regardless of all of that there is something magic in the Leica and it's not just the name or becoming blinded by the Leica dust.
It's the size, the feel, the use, the weight, the silence, the non in your face style that happens when you shoot such a small friendly camera. (yea that's it, the Leica is friendly) and there is a big difference between shooting a subject with a huge medium format camera, or dslr. People just react differently, you work differently. Sure a Canon G10 might make a superior file in the world of smooth as a babies butt digital images, but it just doesn't feel or work the same because I tried one and just can't get past the toyness of those small digital cameras.
The Leica may be friendly but their is no toyness to it.
View this video http://tinyurl.com/nvusy8 (http://tinyurl.com/nvusy8) (I saw it first on aphotoeditor.com) and if you watch this and don't want to go buy an M series then your a stronger willed person than I am.
Given all of this, I am surprised, that more effort wasn't first put into the M series, instead of the S-2. The M faithful is huge and would probably love a real full frame (and silent M8) maybe a few frames a second faster shooting, obviously a bigger buffer, most importantly a meter that worked and (ok I know this part is heresy) but maybe even a few autofocus M series lenses.
From everyone I know that has an M-8 everyone loves it, everyone knows it's problems and shortcomings and I doubt if anyone would sell theirs. I also doubt if many M-8 owners are breathing hard waiting for a dslr. That's gotta tell you something, though maybe I'm wrong. I kind of hope I'm wrong because the last thing I want to see is any of these traditional camera companies go away. We all lose a little piece of ourselves and our industry every time one closes.
I can see a new M8, but don't know about an S2 at least for doing walk the streets work, but maybe it's not intended for that.
Now the interesting thing to me is when I watch that video is how beautiful the still images are compared to the video images and though the stills obviously stand alone quite well, it's also obvious with the sound, the music, he dialog from the video and the photographers POV the still images resonate even stronger.
Imagine if the video camera had the Leicaness of the stills?
Just a thought.
JR
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I saw people use it in studio. In fact I had to use it too, 20 years ago. It was considered the "cheap" solution where I had to shoot
Edmund
sorry, as good as the R line was, i have never seen or heard of a pro using it, although i am sure there are/were some because of its obvious advantages (it always comes down to the lenses with leica...)....
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at the rangefinderforum is a interesting thread on some factual news regarding leica
link to rangefinder forum (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76621)
Leica says, they want to sell 10.000 units per year. Even with the prices becoming lower I was pretty sure the whole MFDB market was just 6000 units per year. I don't get their math.
Maybe dfarkas can chime in on this? And while I'm asking, is there a pro service planned, because the aim at the pro with the S2:
"Target group of the S2 are professional photographers (studio, fashion, automobile)"
Thanks in advance
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Yes, they had planned a pro service.
However I think that the S2 is a joke if it uses the slow Kodak sensor - the whole advantage of an SLR format is speed of use with natural light off tripod, and you lose that with a slow sensor. The sensor was the greatest weakness of the M8 - who really wants to buy a Noctilux ?
Edmund
at the rangefinderforum is a interesting thread on some factual news regarding leica
link to rangefinder forum (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76621)
Leica says, they want to sell 10.000 units per year. Even with the prices becoming lower I was pretty sure the whole MFDB market was just 6000 units per year. I don't get their math.
Maybe dfarkas can chime in on this? And while I'm asking, is there a pro service planned, because the aim at the pro with the S2:
"Target group of the S2 are professional photographers (studio, fashion, automobile)"
Thanks in advance
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Yes, they had planned a pro service.
Edmund
Do you have any details on that? or anybody else
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at the rangefinderforum is a interesting thread on some factual news regarding leica
link to rangefinder forum (http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76621)
Leica says, they want to sell 10.000 units per year. Even with the prices becoming lower I was pretty sure the whole MFDB market was just 6000 units per year. I don't get their math.
Maybe dfarkas can chime in on this? And while I'm asking, is there a pro service planned, because the aim at the pro with the S2:
"Target group of the S2 are professional photographers (studio, fashion, automobile)"
Thanks in advance
This is a misquote. Stefan Daniel said that Leica estimates the entire MF market to be about 10,000 units per year. They expect to have a double-digit share of this. So, if Leica was able to capture a 10% market share (min double-digit), they'd expect to sell 1,000 units per year, at 20% they'd sell 2,000, etc. These numbers are more where Leica expects to be.
Pro service has been planned from the beginning. We should have details on this before the end of the month, along with system pricing.
David
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Yes, they had planned a pro service.
However I think that the S2 is a joke if it uses the slow Kodak sensor - the whole advantage of an SLR format is speed of use with natural light off tripod, and you lose that with a slow sensor. The sensor was the greatest weakness of the M8 - who really wants to buy a Noctilux ?
Edmund
It is a new generation CCD made by Kodak. It has 4 channels for data transfering (out of the sensor) and more electronic components attached to the sensor. In some sense, CMOS (back-illuminated designs) and CCDs are converging...
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It is a new generation CCD made by Kodak. It has 4 channels for data transfering (out of the sensor) and more electronic components attached to the sensor. In some sense, CMOS (back-illuminated designs) and CCDs are converging...
And soon is two years old.
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"Soon" would mean then over 14 months...
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Yes, they had planned a pro service.
However I think that the S2 is a joke if it uses the slow Kodak sensor - the whole advantage of an SLR format is speed of use with natural light off tripod, and you lose that with a slow sensor. The sensor was the greatest weakness of the M8 - who really wants to buy a Noctilux ?
Edmund
So far Kodak CCD sensor is not slow. It is faster than Dalsa. Unless you are talking about faster CMOS sensor.
And I really agree with JR that Leica should focus on M8 first.