Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: thsinar on October 17, 2008, 11:36:56 am
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FYI:
Sinar has reduced the recommended enduser price of the following Sinarbacks and Sinar Hy6 Camera Systems:
A. Sinarbacks eMotion & eVolution
1. Sinarback eMotion 54 LV (22 MPx)
New Price Euro 6'037.- (old Euro 8'524.-)
2. Sinarback eMotion 75 LV (33 Mpx)
New price Euro 16'778.- (old price Euro 21'939.-)
3. Sinarback eVolution 75 H (33 Mpx)
New price Euro 16'778.- (old price Euro 21'939.-)
B. Sinar Hy6 Camera Systems
1. Sinar Hy6-e54
New Price Euro 11'372.- (old price Euro 14'018.-)
2. Sinar Hy6-e54r (with revolving adapter)
New Price Euro 12'128.- (old price Euro 14'872.-)
3. Sinar Hy6-e75
New price Euro 17'500.- (old price Euro 20'671.-)
4. Sinar Hy6-e75r (with revolving adapter)
New price Euro 17'805.- (old price Euro 22'500.-)
5. Sinar Hy6-v75
New price Euro 17'500.- (old price Euro 24'329.-)
Please contact your local distributor for more details.
Best regards,
Thierry
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That is a very interesting price drop!
The Hy6v75 is the multishot version together with a Hy6 body and 80mm? The 22Mp is priced very friendly as well! Sorry, these prices are making me somewhat greedy Sinar is the only system I have never tried.
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Thank you Thierry!
Really Great news!
Is the price drop roughly the same in China?
FYI:
Sinar has reduced the recommended enduser price of the following Sinarbacks and Sinar Hy6 Camera Systems:
Thierry
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Hi Theirry,
Do you have a price for the new Esprit 65r back and Hy6 65 bundle?
Thanks,
Karen
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Interesting!
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Yes Dustback, the Hy6-v75 is the multisot camera version (with Hy6 body, WLF and Schneider 80mm AFD), with the eVolution 75.
Best regards,
Thierry
That is a very interesting price drop!
The Hy6v75 is the multishot version together with a Hy6 body and 80mm? The 22Mp is priced very friendly as well! Sorry, these prices are making me somewhat greedy Sinar is the only system I have never tried.
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Karen,
the prices of the Sinarback eSprit 65 and the corresponding Sinar Hy6 camera systems (Sinar Hy6-65 and Sinar Hy6-s65r) have been published here:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=27940 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=27940)
and the technical features and details about this back and camera systems here:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=27565 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=27565)
Best regards,
Thierry
Hi Theirry,
Do you have a price for the new Esprit 65r back and Hy6 65 bundle?
Thanks,
Karen
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Dear Dustblue,
All Sinar distributors have been informed about these price reductions already.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thank you Thierry!
Really Great news!
Is the price drop roughly the same in China?
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Thanks a lot!
Dear Dustblue,
All Sinar distributors have been informed about these price reductions already.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Assuming that these prices hold for the US, the 54s back is what, about $8k? The Hy6-54s is what, $14500? This is great news. I wonder if SinarBron USA will let people know about the price drops. Even though I mainly do video now, at $8k, I might just get a 54s for my RZs.
Thierry, do you know what SinarBron is going to charge?
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Thierry,
I'll buy a 54s if I know what the price is. When will SinarBron USA have information? I know its a Friday and all, and I know its like fall weather here in teh North East USA, but this is BIG news. Also, can I buy directly from SinarBron or do I have to go through a dealer? If I have to go the dealer route, who els eis a dealer in NYC? Erwin at Calumet?
Thanks in advance Thierry.
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TMARK,
I don't know what the exchange rate is, but don't forget to factor in the cost of an interface plate.
Irwin @ Calumet
Don, Jon, & Richard at Foto Care
Ross @ K&M
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TMARK,
I don't know what the exchange rate is, but don't forget to factor in the cost of an interface plate.
Irwin @ Calumet
Don, Jon, & Richard at Foto Care
Ross @ K&M
Thanks BJ. A plate for an RZ is about a grand, from what I can tell.
The exchange rate as of this very day is $1.34 to the Euro, which is a bit better than it was before European banks began being nationalized and capital fled to teh dollar.
I like Irwin. A funny and affable guy.
Thanks,
TM
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TMARK,
I'd still like to get together to test the Kino Flo Kelvin Tile if you're agreeable?
Billy
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Hi Thierry,
These names and combinations are so confusing, not just Sinar, everybody.
Do you have a price, either in Euros or in UK money of your multishot back (whatever you call it!) on its own, to mount on a Sinar P2 view camera. I'm thinking of adding a third camera back for situations where I need extreme detailed quality and therefore I'd be interested in arranging a demo, at my London studio.
Many thanks,
Edward
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TMARK,
I'd still like to get together to test the Kino Flo Kelvin Tile if you're agreeable?
Billy
Oh yeah! I'll be in New Orleans for what looks like a week. PM me and we'll check out the TILE and the Paint Box when I'm back. Perhaps the 28th or 29th.
T
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Hi Thierry,
These names and combinations are so confusing, not just Sinar, everybody.
Do you have a price, either in Euros or in UK money of your multishot back (whatever you call it!) on its own, to mount on a Sinar P2 view camera. I'm thinking of adding a third camera back for situations where I need extreme detailed quality and therefore I'd be interested in arranging a demo, at my London studio.
Many thanks,
Edward
That would be the Evolution75. Price is mentioned above. For about 1K euros more you get the Hy6 Body as well.
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That would be the Evolution75. Price is mentioned above. For about 1K euros more you get the Hy6 Body as well.
Thank you, Dustbak. I believe you have been interested in the bigger multishots for a while. Have you tried the Hasselblad one yet?
Edward
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I have ordered the CF39MS. It should have arrived at my dealers place yesterday so I am now waiting for their phone call so I can get my back together with the HC28.
I find the Sinar interesting partly because it is a Dalsa multishot which makes me wonder how it performs. I have never handled a Sinar back which also makes me curious. But... next year I plan to invest in glass & light. This year I invested in glass & upgrading my back. (I seem to be always buying glass).
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I have ordered the CF39MS. It should have arrived at my dealers place yesterday so I am now waiting for their phone call so I can get my back together with the HC28.
I find the Sinar interesting partly because it is a Dalsa multishot which makes me wonder how it performs. I have never handled a Sinar back which also makes me curious. But... next year I plan to invest in glass & light. This year I invested in glass & upgrading my back. (I seem to be always buying glass).
I'm sure that when you get your new toy, you'll be making lots of tests and comparisons. I'd be very interested to hear (and see).
I have the Aptus65 with which I am extremely satisfied. I love Leaf cameras, I use them constantly and they've never failed me. If only Leaf made a multishot, just to use now and then, I would be ecstatic and get one or two for the studio, but Leaf multishot is never going to happen, thus my curiosity about Sinar multishots...
Edward
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It would be real nice, if someone could post US price, instead of converting on our own.
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Sorry but I can't understand where's Sinar customer care. I bought an Emotion 54LV on July, price paid about 14.500 euros with RZ67 adapter, from the Italian distributor Mafer.
Now it's about 6000 euros. (add the adapter, I think about 750 euros, so about 7000)
Really angry and disappointed about Sinar policy.
Anyone Audi or Volkswagen guy knows about similar changes in their prices? So I will wait to buy a new wagon.
Roberto Pastrovicchio http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/style_...default/mad.gif (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)
www.robertopastrovicchio.com
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Two months ago I bought the Hy6 with the e75r and paid $29,000 US. I think that some adjustment or accommodation should be made for having paid $5,000 more just 60 days previously.
Jerry Reed
FYI:
Sinar has reduced the recommended enduser price of the following Sinarbacks and Sinar Hy6 Camera Systems:
A. Sinarbacks eMotion & eVolution
1. Sinarback eMotion 54 LV (22 MPx)
New Price Euro 6'037.- (old Euro 8'524.-)
2. Sinarback eMotion 75 LV (33 Mpx)
New price Euro 16'778.- (old price Euro 21'939.-)
3. Sinarback eVolution 75 H (33 Mpx)
New price Euro 16'778.- (old price Euro 21'939.-)
B. Sinar Hy6 Camera Systems
1. Sinar Hy6-e54
New Price Euro 11'372.- (old price Euro 14'018.-)
2. Sinar Hy6-e54r (with revolving adapter)
New Price Euro 12'128.- (old price Euro 14'872.-)
3. Sinar Hy6-e75
New price Euro 17'500.- (old price Euro 20'671.-)
4. Sinar Hy6-e75r (with revolving adapter)
New price Euro 17'805.- (old price Euro 22'500.-)
5. Sinar Hy6-v75
New price Euro 17'500.- (old price Euro 24'329.-)
Please contact your local distributor for more details.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Thought I'd save Michael the trouble:
One can only guess as to the reasons for this fire sale, and I'll leave the more financially knowledgeable among readers to fathom it out for themselves. Overall though it seems to me to be an unhealthy trend for the MF industry, as lower margins (for dealers as well) combined with our current global financial crisis (which is causing credit to dry up and consumer to be wary), could well lead to a considerably constriction in the marketplace. Add to this cameras like the 25MP Sony A900 and 21MP Canon 5D MII full frame cameras at around $2,500, and one has to wonder at the economic viability of much of the medium format marketplace.
As consumers we all like lower prices. But what will be the cost of this to the companies that make them and who find their margins and sales drying up? Desperation is contagious.
Nick-T
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The virus does seem to have caught on
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I must say that I can't blame Sinar.
They are just trying to stay competitive with the others.
Hasselblad started it by dropping their bodies and backs 40%.
Now we have to see what Leaf will do.
However it is a bummer for people that recently purchased an outfit.
Regards,
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if we are now in an age when customers don't want manufacturers to reduce prices, because the customers believe thats the only way for the manufacturers to keep going, you might wonder what hope there is for the capitalist system
the majority of medium format companies are text book examples of poor business practices - make it as hard as you can to let a customer buy, use opaque pricing, provide as little technical and operational information as possible, and make promises without substantiating them or implementing them
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if we are now in an age when customers don't want manufacturers to reduce prices, because the customers believe thats the only way for the manufacturers to keep going, you might wonder what hope there is for the capitalist system
the majority of medium format companies are text book examples of poor business practices - make it as hard as you can to let a customer buy, use opaque pricing, provide as little technical and operational information as possible, and make promises without substantiating them or implementing them
I was about to post, but you beat me to it.
I find the complaining about lowering prices the most INSANE thing I've ever heard. I swear half the people on this forum work for a back maker in some form of klutsy faux "word of mouth" marketing. Really. If a company can't sell a product to their customers because the price is too high, due in large part to inefficiencies in their operations, well, iron out your inefficiencies and lower the price to what the market will accept, or become a really high end product and give up the volume. Or better yet, one maker, maybe two, should merge or go under.
Yeah, if I bought 60 days ago and now the price drops, I'd be pissed. But that is the hazard with electronics purchases.
Now, lets get us some US prices instead of my back of the envelope Euro/Dollar conversion.
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Below are the US catalog prices for the various Sinarback combinations. These prices reflect 20% off the standard US catalog price.
Sinar Hy6/e75LV $29,200.00
Sinar Hy6/e75LVr $30,400.00
Sinar Hy6/e54LV $24,160.00
Sinar Hy6/e54LVr $25,520.00
Sinar Hy6/v75 $32,200.00
Sinarback eMotion 54LV $14,156.00
Sinarback eMotion 75LV $26,000.00
Sinarback eVolution 75H $28,400.00
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Dear TMARK,
I am sure SinarBron will reduce their prices as well and accordingly. I cannot tell if it will be exactly the same, for this you will have to contact them.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Assuming that these prices hold for the US, the 54s back is what, about $8k? The Hy6-54s is what, $14500? This is great news. I wonder if SinarBron USA will let people know about the price drops. Even though I mainly do video now, at $8k, I might just get a 54s for my RZs.
Thierry, do you know what SinarBron is going to charge?
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Thought I'd save Michael the trouble:
Nick-T
Nice!!
And Thank you Cfranson, appreciate you finding it,as I couldn't find the prices @ Calumet.
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TMARK,
SinarBron has got this information 3 days ago already. I can only recommend you to contact them for details.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
I'll buy a 54s if I know what the price is. When will SinarBron USA have information? I know its a Friday and all, and I know its like fall weather here in teh North East USA, but this is BIG news. Also, can I buy directly from SinarBron or do I have to go through a dealer? If I have to go the dealer route, who els eis a dealer in NYC? Erwin at Calumet?
Thanks in advance Thierry.
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Dear Edwards,
The multishot back has been reduced in price as well (see above):
3. Sinarback eVolution 75 H (33 Mpx)
New price Euro 16'778.- (old price Euro 21'939.-)
Best regards,
Thierry
Hi Thierry,
These names and combinations are so confusing, not just Sinar, everybody.
Do you have a price, either in Euros or in UK money of your multishot back (whatever you call it!) on its own, to mount on a Sinar P2 view camera. I'm thinking of adding a third camera back for situations where I need extreme detailed quality and therefore I'd be interested in arranging a demo, at my London studio.
Many thanks,
Edward
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Roberto,
we have discussed this together via mail and yourself with our Italian distributor already: the story is a little different, if I remember correctly. You have bought a Sinarback eMotion 22 (older model) which you then upgraded to a brand new eMotion 54 LV, and you actually told me that you paid Euro 11'500.-, not 14'500.-.
It is normal, in the life cycle of any product of this kind, to have price reductions.
Best regards,
Thierry
Sorry but I can't understand where's Sinar customer care. I bought an Emotion 54LV on July, price paid about 14.500 euros with RZ67 adapter, from the Italian distributor Mafer.
Now it's about 6000 euros. (add the adapter, I think about 750 euros, so about 7000)
Really angry and disappointed about Sinar policy.
Anyone Audi or Volkswagen guy knows about similar changes in their prices? So I will wait to buy a new wagon.
Roberto Pastrovicchio http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/style_...default/mad.gif (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)
www.robertopastrovicchio.com
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... Which means, Nick?
Could you emphasize your thoughts?
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Thought I'd save Michael the trouble:
Nick-T
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If I have to go the dealer route, who els eis a dealer in NYC? Erwin at Calumet?
TMark, ask for Jeff at here (http://www.fotocare.com/html/page.asp?gId=126) you can arrange to try Sinar, Leaf, Hasselblad
at the same time or simply buy any Sinar DB if you have already decided!!!
What's interesting as far as I am concerned is that Broncolor PowerPacks seem like a good deal now, 40% off
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And Thank you Cfranson, appreciate you finding it,as I couldn't find the prices @ Calumet.
Calumet isn't the only Sinar dealer around. Sinar Bron sent us the promotional information a few days ago.
-Chris
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Dear TMARK,
I am sure SinarBron will reduce their prices as well and accordingly. I cannot tell if it will be exactly the same, for this you will have to contact them.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Thierry, in the post immediately above yours, I've listed the US pricing as sent to us directly from SinarBron.
-Chris
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Thanks Chris,
SBI has been sent the new prices last wednesday: I believe those posted by you do not yet reflect these price reductions.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry, in the post immediately above yours, I've listed the US pricing as sent to us directly from SinarBron.
-Chris
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Thanks Thierry. I'll see if I can get in touch with SinarBron when I get back from a job next week.
I would love to buy Bron lighting but I drpped $21k on Profoto last year. I'm not switching until my Profoto gear won't work anymore, which means probably never.
As to the back, if the prices are in line with the Euro prices, I'm in. I've always liked the Dalsa chip, 22 mpx is MORE than enough for magazine and ad work, the 54s is fast, has internal memory, uses adapter plates . . . true, the software is off putting, but if worse comes to worse I can make into dng and open in LR 2.0.
Thierry, is Sinar still offering the 54m?
T
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... Which means, Nick?
Could you emphasize your thoughts?
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Sorry Thierry if I was being opaque.
I thinks it's great that Sinar have dropped prices and wish them every success, competition is very healthy.
I wanted to reference Michael's comments re the Hasselblad price cuts which I thought were un-called for and inaccurate, and show how easily they could be applied to any manufacturer.
Good to meet you at 'kina BTW.
Nick-T
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Dear Thierry,
You're right about the price paid. Sorry that I have mentioned the official price without reduction made by the upgrade, but I was thinking for a moment to who have bought the 54LV without the upgrade possibility.
I can't be happy with my purchase however, about 5500 € off is a big disappointing load.
And for who said this is correct because it's digital, I think it's a quantity issue. Take Apple with the new MBP, if now 2200€ is the price of the best model, the older will be now 800€? No way!
Best regards
Roberto
Roberto,
we have discussed this together via mail and yourself with our Italian distributor already: the story is a little different, if I remember correctly. You have bought a Sinarback eMotion 22 (older model) which you then upgraded to a brand new eMotion 54 LV, and you actually told me that you paid Euro 11'500.-, not 14'500.-.
It is normal, in the life cycle of any product of this kind, to have price reductions.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Dear Thierry,
You're right about the price paid. Sorry that I have mentioned the official price without reduction made by the upgrade, but I was thinking for a moment to who have bought the 54LV without the upgrade possibility.
I can't be happy with my purchase however, about 5500 € off is a big disappointing load.
And for who said this is correct because it's digital, I think it's a quantity issue. Take Apple with the new MBP, if now 2200€ is the price of the best model, the older will be now 800€? No way!
Best regards
Roberto
I paid little less than 30.000 eur for my P45+ (value added, H-mount) 18 months ago and now it's worth about half if even that... Most of this depreciation has happened after Hasselblad's announcement to drop their prices just a few weeks ago. So blame Hasselblad for making their cameras affordable. I'm thinking about switching to H3D or maybe I should be happy with what I got - it still is good...
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Dear Thierry,
You're right about the price paid. Sorry that I have mentioned the official price without reduction made by the upgrade, but I was thinking for a moment to who have bought the 54LV without the upgrade possibility.
I can't be happy with my purchase however, about 5500 € off is a big disappointing load.
And for who said this is correct because it's digital, I think it's a quantity issue. Take Apple with the new MBP, if now 2200€ is the price of the best model, the older will be now 800€? No way!
Best regards
Roberto
I think all of us got burnt to some degree by the price drops...but this is a good sign for the future if you ask me.
On the bright side hopefully the upgrades will be cheaper now.
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I agree. efficiencies are very important. Four MFDB companys's cost is 4 times R&D investments. And who gonna pay for that?
We photographers.
I was about to post, but you beat me to it.
I find the complaining about lowering prices the most INSANE thing I've ever heard. I swear half the people on this forum work for a back maker in some form of klutsy faux "word of mouth" marketing. Really. If a company can't sell a product to their customers because the price is too high, due in large part to inefficiencies in their operations, well, iron out your inefficiencies and lower the price to what the market will accept, or become a really high end product and give up the volume. Or better yet, one maker, maybe two, should merge or go under.
Yeah, if I bought 60 days ago and now the price drops, I'd be pissed. But that is the hazard with electronics purchases.
Now, lets get us some US prices instead of my back of the envelope Euro/Dollar conversion.
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T,
- try the new Sinar eXposure 6.1 which is due within a few weeks: it should change your mind.
- the Sinarback 54 M (and MC) is sold out. We have from time to time refurbished units. For this, please consult our distributor.
Best regards,
Thierry
As to the back, if the prices are in line with the Euro prices, I'm in. I've always liked the Dalsa chip, 22 mpx is MORE than enough for magazine and ad work, the 54s is fast, has internal memory, uses adapter plates . . . true, the software is off putting, but if worse comes to worse I can make into dng and open in LR 2.0.
Thierry, is Sinar still offering the 54m?
T
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hi Nick,
That's what I understood from your post, which means that it is as much "un-called" for Sinar as it was for Hasselblad. You would have noticed that I did not write or make any comment about Hasselblad's price policy/new prices, whatever the reasons for these are. That's why I was a bit surprised to get this comment "thrown" in. No harm however.
Yes, was good to meet at Photokina, even though we did not have enough time to chat more. Hopefully next time.
All the best,
Thierry
Sorry Thierry if I was being opaque.
I thinks it's great that Sinar have dropped prices and wish them every success, competition is very healthy.
I wanted to reference Michael's comments re the Hasselblad price cuts which I thought were un-called for and inaccurate, and show how easily they could be applied to any manufacturer.
Good to meet you at 'kina BTW.
Nick-T
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hi Nick,
Yes, was good to meet at Photokina, even though we did not have enough time to chat more. Hopefully next time.
All the best,
Thierry
Thierry, I remember you made an offer to buy anyone from the forum a drink in Patpong, as alcohol was no go at PK ...
Edmund
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Edmund, the day you'll see me in Patpong it will snow in Thailand (I should say Bangkok): there is MUCH better than this ....
Thierry
Thierry, I remember you made an offer to buy anyone from the forum a drink in Patpong, as alcohol was no go at PK ...
Edmund
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Dear Thierry,
Sorry it took so long to respond. We did in fact receive the Circular from Sinar on Tuesday morning annoucing the promotional pricing on the backs and Hy6 bundles. On Tuesday afternoon, we sent out a Marketing Bulletin to our dealers announcing the promotional pricing. I am afraid it sometimes takes a while for the info to make it to the end user. The prices Chris quoted take into account the promotional pricing.
Sincerely,
Greg King
Sinar Bron Imaging
Thanks Chris,
SBI has been sent the new prices last wednesday: I believe those posted by you do not yet reflect these price reductions.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Dear Thierry,
Sorry it took so long to respond. We did in fact receive the Circular from Sinar on Tuesday morning annoucing the promotional pricing on the backs and Hy6 bundles. On Tuesday afternoon, we sent out a Marketing Bulletin to our dealers announcing the promotional pricing. I am afraid it sometimes takes a while for the info to make it to the end user. The prices Chris quoted take into account the promotional pricing.
Sincerely,
Greg King
Sinar Bron Imaging
So you're saying the Sinarback eMotion 54 LV (22 MPx) now priced at Euro 6'037, is US priced at $14,156.00 per Chris' post earlier? The current conversion rate is ~1.3414, so 6037 Euros x 1.3414 = $8,098. That implies a $6,000 US mark-up. Surely that can't be right...?...
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Dear Thierry,
Sorry it took so long to respond. We did in fact receive the Circular from Sinar on Tuesday morning annoucing the promotional pricing on the backs and Hy6 bundles. On Tuesday afternoon, we sent out a Marketing Bulletin to our dealers announcing the promotional pricing. I am afraid it sometimes takes a while for the info to make it to the end user. The prices Chris quoted take into account the promotional pricing.
Sincerely,
Greg King
Sinar Bron Imaging
I am sorry, Greg, but I am a wee bit flummoxed. The emotion 54LV at USD14 156.00 reflects the promotional pricing? I can't make EUR6000.00 come out as USD14 156.00, no matter how hard I try. According to the closing spot forex rate posted on Friday at trading close, EUR6000.00 = USD8077.76. OK, it is the spot rate albeit. Still, that comes up to a 75% mark up over the European price.
I must have misunderstood you so please do elucidate.
P.S. Oh, Oh. Could Thierry have posted Sinar's DEALER'S prices in error? Well, he said that the margin was not as large as one may think. What do you all think? All the other packages are marked up too from their European prices, ranging from 38% for the Hy6-v75 to 15% for the 75LV. If these are the actual prices, then what I found in 2005 still remains true today, namely, that US prices (in this case, Sinar) are marked up drastically over world-outside-of-US prices.
Curiouser and Curiouser.
`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
Excerpt from Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll, Chapter VI.
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Dear All,
It appears there is an error in our Marketing Bulletin. I will check into it on Monday. Sorry for any confusion. I will post the correct pricing at that time.
Sincerely,
Greg King
Sinar Bron Imaging
So you're saying the Sinarback eMotion 54 LV (22 MPx) now priced at Euro 6'037, is US priced at $14,156.00 per Chris' post earlier? The current conversion rate is ~1.3414, so 6037 Euros x 1.3414 = $8,098. That implies a $6,000 US mark-up. Surely that can't be right...?...
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I am sorry, Greg, but I am a wee bit flummoxed. The emotion 54LV at USD14 156.00 reflects the promotional pricing? I can't make EUR6000.00 come out as USD14 156.00, no matter how hard I try. According to the closing spot forex rate posted on Friday at trading close, EUR6000.00 = USD8077.76. OK, it is the spot rate albeit. Still, that comes up to a 75% mark up over the European price.
I must have misunderstood you so please do elucidate.
P.S. Oh, Oh. Could Thierry have posted Sinar's DEALER'S prices in error? Well, he said that the margin was not as large as one may think. What do you all think? All the other packages are marked up too from their European prices, ranging from 38% for the Hy6-v75 to 15% for the 75LV. If these are the actual prices, then what I found in 2005 still remains true today, namely, that US prices (in this case, Sinar) are marked up drastically over world-outside-of-US prices.
Curiouser and Curiouser.
`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
Excerpt from Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll, Chapter VI.
I just don't understand. I'm so confused.
Greg King, yeah, I'm talking to you! Please state with precision and conviction the US cost, to me, of a 54lv back. I'm in NYC. Is that the list price? And if so, will I have to shake a real price out of a dealer, Shug Knight style?
If the US price is 14k w/o a plate, no one in the US will buy. Not with Leaf 54s backs in almost new condition sloshing around NY and LA Craigslist and Ebay for $9k, and not with Blad pricing being what it is. Not to mention the 5d2 at $2700, used P25's at $6k, etc.
In the coming MFDB maker shakeout, a company that can't get its act together will not survive as a back maker anyway. Sinar does not have its act together, in the US market. That is the impression.
Edited: Just saw Greg's post. Let us know when the correct info is available. Thanks!
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No, I didn't Sean! Too bad for you since you dreamed about!
Best regards,
Thierry
P.S. Oh, Oh. Could Thierry have posted Sinar's DEALER'S prices in error? Well, he said that the margin was not as large as one may think. What do you all think? All the other packages are marked up too from their European prices, ranging from 38% for the Hy6-v75 to 15% for the 75LV. If these are the actual prices, then what I found in 2005 still remains true today, namely, that US prices (in this case, Sinar) are marked up drastically over world-outside-of-US prices.
Curiouser and Curiouser.
`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'
`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
Excerpt from Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll, Chapter VI.
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No, I didn't Sean! Too bad for you since you dreamed about!
Best regards,
Thierry
Does Sinar want to sell cameras or talk about selling cameras?
Maybe I'm missing it but I've read this thread 3 times and I still don't know what Sinars sell for in the U.S. at least the complete range.
Can Sinars be bought in the U.S. like overnight? Where are they serviced, what is the service policy, typical turnaround time.
Will the HY6 and Sinar backs ever be in rental in the major cities?
I still don't understand medium format. I've talked to dealers and reps and engineers and marketing cats and all of them say medium format is different, it requires a specialized dealer to sell them, they don't sell themselves, they require lots of supervision and a steep learning curve, a real camera store can't sell them, only a value added dealer knows how, etc. etc. etc.
OK then how about making them easier to use, tether, process, learn. How bout' making them available, the prices understandable and easy to buy.
All of medium format is cryptic at best, but Sinar wins for an information stream that makes the Bush White House look transparent. Well, I take that back, Phase also seems to be experts at infuriating their customers which in a very bizarre way tells you something positive about Phase in the fact they seem to outsell everyone else. Go figure?
If these small straw polls that keep getting posted on this forum are even close to correct, the only digital backs that Sinar outsells is Mamiya's ZD and megavision. You would think they would want to change that.
It's not just Sinar, I'd swear medium format prides itself on it's complexity and confusion.
No wonder digital techs love medium format. They're the only ones that have a vested interest in taking the time to understand it.
It kind of makes you wonder why Hasselblad doesn't rule the medium format world? Maybe now that they are hitting the forums hard and have dropped their prices they will.
Big Cooter
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bcooter,
I am getting a bit tired to get bashed all the time (together with other MF players), especially if it is to repeat x-times the same again and again. I guess I have got your message since a little while now.
No world is perfect, but "we" are working on it to make it better. So it is with the MF AND with SLR markets.
I have informed about new Sinar prices (see above). These prices have been communicated last mid of the week to our distributors: if those are not yet out and known in the USA by the dealers, it is by no means a crime, and certainly doesn't deserve your outcry. Let these persons, most of them dedicated and knowledgeable ones, a bit of time to get it right.
Thanks for your understanding and best regards,
Thierry
Does Sinar want to sell cameras or talk about selling cameras?
Maybe I'm missing it but I've read this thread 3 times and I still don't know what Sinars sell for in the U.S. at least the complete range.
Can Sinars be bought in the U.S. like overnight? Where are they serviced, what is the service policy, typical turnaround time.
Will the HY6 and Sinar backs ever be in rental in the major cities?
I still don't understand medium format. I've talked to dealers and reps and engineers and marketing cats and all of them say medium format is different, it requires a specialized dealer to sell them, they don't sell themselves, they require lots of supervision and a steep learning curve, a real camera store can't sell them, only a value added dealer knows how, etc. etc. etc.
OK then how about making them easier to use, tether, process, learn. How bout' making them available, the prices understandable and easy to buy.
All of medium format is cryptic at best, but Sinar wins for an information stream that makes the Bush White House look transparent. Well, I take that back, Phase also seems to be experts at infuriating their customers which in a very bizarre way tells you something positive about Phase in the fact they seem to outsell everyone else. Go figure?
If these small straw polls that keep getting posted on this forum are even close to correct, the only digital backs that Sinar outsells is Mamiya's ZD and megavision. You would think they would want to change that.
It's not just Sinar, I'd swear medium format prides itself on it's complexity and confusion.
No wonder digital techs love medium format. They're the only ones that have a vested interest in taking the time to understand it.
It kind of makes you wonder why Hasselblad doesn't rule the medium format world? Maybe now that they are hitting the forums hard and have dropped their prices they will.
Big Cooter
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bcooter,
I am getting a bit tired to get bashed all the time (together with other MF players), especially if it is to repeat x-times the same again and again. I guess I have got your message since a little while now.
No world is perfect, but "we" are working on it to make it better. So it is with the MF AND with SLR markets.
I have informed about new Sinar prices (see above). These prices have been communicated last mid of the week to our distributors: if those are now not yet out and known by the dealers, it is not a crime, and certainly doesn't deserve your outcry. Let this persons, most of them dedicated and knowledgeable ones, a bit of time to get it right.
Thanks for your understanding and best regards,
Thierry
Thierry -
I don't blame you for your frustration with such posts. You are a beacon of a light in this otherwise dimmed room. First, let us applaud your efforts and patience, and hope that such grumping does not deter you from helping us all out.
It is wonderful to hear such news from Sinar that you have posted. Its really interesting, and there are a number of us (I suspect) lurking in the wings getting ready to move from offstage to participating in MFDB.
The frustration you hear is that of a recognition of a good product, Europe based, that somehow seems to have trouble getting into the US. The frustration is twofold: first, that of the user who is a bit stymied (I live in Chicago, and its still none too easy to participate in the Hy6 phenomenon), and second, that of interested and respectful people, who admire the product and wish that the barriers between good product and end user would somehow .... dissipate.
I've enjoyed many obscure products from Europe and overseas over the years, and am used to the rather awkward mesh of American marketplace and European models of manufacturing and distribution. I don't know how many of my peers have had that experience directly - but it is a bit of a challenge. And with the more exotic (= smaller production numbers, higher complexity) products, the more challenged is the rational distribution model, which to be sure, is not quite in place.
For other examples, look at all the European producers of fine cars that have not been able to penetrate the US market. Its hard for these manufacturers to grasp the scale of the US, and the high level of expectations of support and availability that the US market tends to demand.
For those who want the Canikon experience, one must recommend they either stay with that realm, or go to Hassy. For Hassy has that level of broad base exposure and also expertise in their marketing. For those who are looking for exemplary products of singular distinction, for a particular engineering approach that might be different (and I'd argue the Hy6 is just that) , well, accept that the marketing is a second priority. For some small manufacturers, its reasonable that the expertise is in the product,and patience is needed in the distribution.
Keep this in mind, please: if Sinar and other small manufacturers were as clear on the marketing and distribution side as we'd like, they might not make the products they make. They make from a belief, and then sell from that perspective. It can be frustrating at times, and even a bit awkward to see the misteps, but they believe in what they do. Sure, we'd all like a better a distribution channel, and more exposure, and more centralized communication, and less glitches in pricing exercises, but thankfully at least the product is out there.
So again, Theirry, thanks for your patience, and apologies for the long discourse.
Geoff
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Thank you Geoff, I understand your view and appreciate your words.
Best regards,
Thierry
PS: there is no way stopping me from providing help here, no matter how many "frustrating" posts. I simply wish to keep my freedom to express my "frustration" when I have the feeling that it's too much.
Thierry -
I don't blame you for your frustration with such posts. You are a beacon of a light in this otherwise dimmed room. First, let us applaud your efforts and patience, and hope that such grumping does not deter you from helping us all out.
It is wonderful to hear such news from Sinar that you have posted. Its really interesting, and there are a number of us (I suspect) lurking in the wings getting ready to move from offstage to participating in MFDB.
The frustration you hear is that of a recognition of a good product, Europe based, that somehow seems to have trouble getting into the US. The frustration is twofold: first, that of the user who is a bit stymied (I live in Chicago, and its still none too easy to participate in the Hy6 phenomenon), and second, that of interested and respectful people, who admire the product and wish that the barriers between good product and end user would somehow .... dissipate.
I've enjoyed many obscure products from Europe and overseas over the years, and am used to the rather awkward mesh of American marketplace and European models of manufacturing and distribution. I don't know how many of my peers have had that experience directly - but it is a bit of a challenge. And with the more exotic (= smaller production numbers, higher complexity) products, the more challenged is the rational distribution model, which to be sure, is not quite in place.
For other examples, look at all the European producers of fine cars that have not been able to penetrate the US market. Its hard for these manufacturers to grasp the scale of the US, and the high level of expectations of support and availability that the US market tends to demand.
For those who want the Canikon experience, one must recommend they either stay with that realm, or go to Hassy. For Hassy has that level of broad base exposure and also expertise in their marketing. For those who are looking for exemplary products of singular distinction, for a particular engineering approach that might be different (and I'd argue the Hy6 is just that) , well, accept that the marketing is a second priority. For some small manufacturers, its reasonable that the expertise is in the product,and patience is needed in the distribution.
Keep this in mind, please: if Sinar and other small manufacturers were as clear on the marketing and distribution side as we'd like, they might not make the products they make. They make from a belief, and then sell from that perspective. It can be frustrating at times, and even a bit awkward to see the misteps, but they believe in what they do. Sure, we'd all like a better a distribution channel, and more exposure, and more centralized communication, and less glitches in pricing exercises, but thankfully at least the product is out there.
So again, Theirry, thanks for your patience, and apologies for the long discourse.
Geoff
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Thierry, I agree. It does not matter what you or any other camera manufacturer does: Double the resolution, keep the low noise, and sell it for half the price and the blogs will light up with complaints!
Let's face the facts: it seems like most forums are dominated by people whose favorite pass time is to praise (Red) or damn (60mp backs) stuff which the writer has never even used. It's insane. The same goes for Canon: they make the new 5D2 with double the pixels, less noise, better D.R., 1080p video, and tens of thousands of complaints come streaming onto the web. That's before anyone has actually used the camera!
I think it's gracious of you to come on here - like Ben Stiller, you always play the punching bag. Even when the products are getting better, more flexible, and finally cheaper.
As was said earlier in another thread: I don't see any of MY heroes on forums incessantly complaining about gear. They seem to just buy what tools they need, use them to make some kick ass images, and get paid. End of story. (Maybe in a couple years they buy another camera. Maybe not.) Anyway it's nice to know that many of the most productive photographers are out there getting the job done and loving their digital cameras, knowing nothing about this culture of complaint.
Anyway, keep up the good work.
P.S. I'd like to find a forum where people are helping one another get the most out of their cameras, RAW software, Photoshop. If anyone knows where that is, please let me know.
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lisa:
I think this is it. Sincerely.
I've learned a lot since I registered, which wasn't long ago (just about half a year). I think all things have two sides, all we need to do is make them better(or keep it from getting worse )
cheers,
Dustblue
P.S. I'd like to find a forum where people are helping one another get the most out of their cameras, RAW software, Photoshop. If anyone knows where that is, please let me know.
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Does Sinar want to sell cameras or talk about selling cameras?
Maybe I'm missing it but I've read this thread 3 times and I still don't know what Sinars sell for in the U.S. at least the complete range.
Can Sinars be bought in the U.S. like overnight? Where are they serviced, what is the service policy, typical turnaround time.
Will the HY6 and Sinar backs ever be in rental in the major cities?
I still don't understand medium format. I've talked to dealers and reps and engineers and marketing cats and all of them say medium format is different, it requires a specialized dealer to sell them, they don't sell themselves, they require lots of supervision and a steep learning curve, a real camera store can't sell them, only a value added dealer knows how, etc. etc. etc.
OK then how about making them easier to use, tether, process, learn. How bout' making them available, the prices understandable and easy to buy.
All of medium format is cryptic at best, but Sinar wins for an information stream that makes the Bush White House look transparent. Well, I take that back, Phase also seems to be experts at infuriating their customers which in a very bizarre way tells you something positive about Phase in the fact they seem to outsell everyone else. Go figure?
If these small straw polls that keep getting posted on this forum are even close to correct, the only digital backs that Sinar outsells is Mamiya's ZD and megavision. You would think they would want to change that.
It's not just Sinar, I'd swear medium format prides itself on it's complexity and confusion.
No wonder digital techs love medium format. They're the only ones that have a vested interest in taking the time to understand it.
It kind of makes you wonder why Hasselblad doesn't rule the medium format world? Maybe now that they are hitting the forums hard and have dropped their prices they will.
Big Cooter
Hi Big Cooter (or should I spell that with a J )
For a perfectly honest reply to...
'Can your products complete my check list of needs?'
Then the answer is no. However I am confident I could construct another list geared towards a 35mm manufacturer that would also not fulfill my needs.
My point is that it doesn't sound like you actually have a wish to use a medium format product in the majority of your shoots - and thats fine with me. If Canon and Nikon are working for you, then it would be an utter waste of your money for me to come and visit with a Hasselblad case and try and convince you that you did need it or it was better than your Contax / P25 and so on.
However, for many (and I don't think the 1000's of digital medium format owners are daft enough to spend hard earned currency on a whim) believe that MFD does have something to offer them that they can't find in other products - wether that is 35mm or a particular medium format manufacturer.
If I think of a group of Hasselblad users it is unlikely that they have similar demands. If we take one of your lists for example which is very demanding but for you is essential to your work then you are right to make the choice with Canon or Nikon and or someone else. If I think of Mr. X photographer then as long as he is shooting spectacular quality from his H3D39, has some lenses he can hire down the road if need be and a repair centre down another road then he is happy. The fact that he can't process 1000 shots overnight is irrelevant because he might only capture ten on a hard days work.
Im not having a pop at you, I am just saying that perhaps right now there is no perfect tool for your work - doesn't mean to say you are being ignored or that your requests are not taken seriously but we have an extensive wish list of what we would like to do and almost all things that I see and hear are on it. I am sure the same goes for Thierry as well.
Hopefully that helps things a long a bit.
Best,
David
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P.S. I'd like to find a forum where people are helping one another get the most out of their cameras, RAW software, Photoshop. If anyone knows where that is, please let me know.
I've gotten some very quick and useful help on these forums from other members. It's the best place I am aware of for help from people with real experience. This is it, IMHO.
Eric
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bcooter,
I am getting a bit tired to get bashed all the time (together with other MF players), especially if it is to repeat x-times the same again and again. I guess I have got your message since a little while now.
No world is perfect, but "we" are working on it to make it better. So it is with the MF AND with SLR markets.
I have informed about new Sinar prices (see above). These prices have been communicated last mid of the week to our distributors: if those are not yet out and known in the USA by the dealers, it is by no means a crime, and certainly doesn't deserve your outcry. Let these persons, most of them dedicated and knowledgeable ones, a bit of time to get it right.
Thanks for your understanding and best regards,
Thierry
It seems that you're getting bashed quite a lot. I don't see it happening 'together with other MF players', partly because other MF players don't present 'information' the way you do.
It is by no means a crime as you said, but I certainly question your integrity due to the huge discrepancy.
Aw-shucks, Thierry got his feelings hurt again. Maybe a love-in with the katoeys of Patpong will help you to get over it.
All the very best to your marketing career.
Shug
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It seems that you're getting bashed quite a lot. I don't see it happening 'together with other MF players', partly because other MF players don't present 'information' the way you do.
It is by no means a crime as you said, but I certainly question your integrity due to the huge discrepancy.
Aw-shucks, Thierry got his feelings hurt again. Maybe a love-in with the katoeys of Patpong will help you to get over it.
All the very best to your marketing career.
Shug
Dag Shug! Is that how you got those master tapes from Dr. Dre?
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All the very best to your marketing career.
Shug
For the record I think all professional digital cameras are amazing. I never would have imagined 10 years ago to get the quality we now receive from the lowest priced mass brands to the most obscure highest cost products.
Also for the record a lot of people that get called dissenters or negative are actually writing not to complain, but to honestly put in direct terms what they expect when it comes to handing over hard earned cash. I would think some of that information is invaluable.
Forums and blogs are interesting how they change tone. A few years ago everyone said, where are the makers, the reps, the technical people and now we have them. I find some of that good, but I also know that regardless of how forthright and honest most of them are, there is still an agenda to put the best light on their product. It would be foolish not to.
I've seen a lot of photography forums and except for a few rare instances they all center around equipment. Users post thousands of images of walls, fields, buildings, their patio, showing edge to edge sharpness of lenses, just sure that the latest 28mm is the one that does it all. For me this has nothing to do with photography, but I do respect the effort to share knowledge, as long as nobody is looking for a financial return on that sharing.
Talking about equipment I find the least interesting of all the aspects of photography, but it is the safest form of public discourse. If you don't believe me praise the work of Terry Richardson and listen to the responses.
If the forum gains in popularity then naturally here come the dealers, the manufacturer's reps, the photographers with close associations to the maker and the brand warriors that are in love with their one particular camera.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to sell your product, nothing wrong with having pride in the tools you've worked hard to own, or the work you produce. I understand that fully.
But I also understand is the sword cuts both ways. You can't use what is essentially a public forum to advertise products and not take some hard questions. But then again, why is world pricing such a hard question to answer, especially when asked by someone that is a potential buyer? Especially in todays economy, which recent events prove that when it comes to money we are all in this together, like it or not. The dollar is hooked to the Euro, the Yen and the Pound.
There is not a professional photographer in this world that doesn't have to answer price questions daily. Whether you shoot weddings, editorial, or million dollar campaigns, you don't get past the first 2 minutes of conversation until price becomes the discussion. You can't shoot a professional project without money eventually becoming the over ridding topic. Talent, crew, equipment rental/purchases, the prices are asked hourly by clients and producers so why is it so offensive if someone asks how much is a Sinar, or for that matter any piece of equipment if I bought it in Russia, New York or Sydney?
If I sold cameras, I'd look at these type of threads as an opportunity to answer the hard questions. I would use this as an entry to mention great service, better product, clearer pricing and if I didn't have positive answers to those questions I would explain with clarity how I planned to achieve those goals.
In other words I would look for a way to turn the conversation around into a positive message rather than get hurt feelings.
Theirry, or if any of the makers want me to say I appreciate your contributions, ok, I guess I do somewhat appreciate your contributions, but I would appreciate it even more if I knew what is the real out the door costs, what is the typical service turnaround, how available is "the prodeuct " in rentals.
I also believe you should appreciate our responses because obviously you find value here or you wouldn't have logged on in the first place.
If the makers that have recently joined this forum want a theme where people just praise product then there are places out there that offer this. Just run a few ads in the gear magazines and they'll probably say anything you want. Run a 20 ad buy and they'll give you a product of the year award and reprint your press releases until the world goes blind. Then again I can promise you that there won't be much to be learned from that and with that thought medium format will continue to sell thousands, rather than 10's of thousands of systems a year.
The alternative to this is to go to someone like Jake Chessum who is on the editorial A-list and ask him why he shoots film with an RZ instead of digital. Hand him an HY6 and H3dII (I hope I have that right because some of these names get confusing) and ask for an unvarnished, no hurt feelings, no praise the brand response.
Or open up the Sept. 2008 issue of L'umo Vogue and look at those amazing portraits of John Hurt shot by phil poynter and ask how your company can make a color pallet that reacts like that, or if you software has real film presets for color and tone, or allows the introduction of grain into an image without going into photoshop.
Since this thread was based on price and that became objectionable, ask these or other working photographers how they respond when some art buyer, or photo editor screams why is the invoice not clear and understandable.
I doubt seriously if the photographer responds by saying, "I am getting a bit tired to get bashed all the time "
I am positive they will not respond that maybe you should use another photographer if you require more than 10 frames a day.
Again for the record nobody is bashing, or calling a medium format owner daft, but instead just asking questions and not really understanding the answers. Also be clear I'm not in this for the makers, I come at this from the standpoint as a photographer, or as most of the dealers like to call us, end users.
Maybe potential customer is a better term.
BC
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deleted
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It seems that you're getting bashed quite a lot. I don't see it happening 'together with other MF players', partly because other MF players don't present 'information' the way you do.
It is by no means a crime as you said, but I certainly question your integrity due to the huge discrepancy.
Aw-shucks, Thierry got his feelings hurt again. Maybe a love-in with the katoeys of Patpong will help you to get over it.
All the very best to your marketing career.
Shug
If you were paying attention you would see that Hasselblad has been subject to a lot of bashing, but all in general have been criticised for lack of transparent pricing information, small LCD screens, overpricing, software, etc. If you haven't been reading the forum then you are in no position to make such a comment.
I don't think Thierry is talking about hurt feelings, but the frustration at having to respond to the same (mostly false) criticisms over and over and over again. I think he does so with patience and integrity, and many have expressed this same opinion in this forum. You're on your own.
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(snip)
Aw-shucks, Thierry got his feelings hurt again. Maybe a love-in with the katoeys of Patpong will help you to get over it.
All the very best to your marketing career.
Shug
I find this remark incredibly offensive and inappropriate. It has no place here, regardless of one's feelings about a company's rep's posts here. Thierry has been a gentleman (and remains so) and is an asset to Sinar and the members of this forum and others. Your remark regarding Patpong and transvestites (or "lady-men") is childish at best. Please leave such posts out of these forums so that we can discuss photography here.
Dale Allyn
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The alternative to this is to go to someone like Jake Chessum who is on the editorial A-list and ask him why he shoots film with an RZ instead of digital. Hand him an HY6 and H3dII (I hope I have that right because some of these names get confusing) and ask for an unvarnished, no hurt feelings, no praise the brand response.
Or open up the Sept. 2008 issue of L'umo Vogue and look at those amazing portraits of John Hurt shot by phil poynter and ask how your company can make a color pallet that reacts like that, or if you software has real film presets for color and tone, or allows the introduction of grain into an image without going into photoshop.
Good point. The longer I shoot digital, the more interesting the above two paragraphs become. If it ain't broke, why go fixing something, especially if it complicates your life to a massive degree? You work and work to perfect a trademark look, and then here comes a chip that everyone is shooting. The exact same chip.
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I find this remark incredibly offensive and inappropriate. It has no place here, regardless of one's feelings about a company's rep's posts here. Thierry has been a gentleman (and remains so) and is an asset to Sinar and the members of this forum and others. Your remark regarding Patpong and transvestites (or "lady-men") is childish at best. Please leave such posts out of these forums so that we can discuss photography here.
Dale Allyn
There appears to be three groupings on these forums.
First, there are the manufacturing or sales reps on one end of the spectrum. Often hlepful, sometimes a bit corporate, but generally not too single focused on sales, but rather on answering questions.
Second, there are a large group of photographers in a middle group 9the bulk of the membership) who are genuinely interested in getting questions answered,and sharing information. Usually pretty polite about it all.
Third, there are some who are usually phtoographers but have a strong point of view, which sometime veer into impolitic observations. This group tends to post more frequently than not.
All have contributions to make. The issue is how to keep the discourse civil enough between all these members so that we can all thrive and work with each other.
Someone once described summer camps for kids as a cross between Fantasy Island and Lord of the Flies. I wonder if thats relevant.
Geoff
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and then here comes a chip that everyone is shooting. The exact same chip.
I don't agree that the chip is going to determine your "look" to any great degree. To that end: look in any magazines and tell me which camera shot what.
Does this guy's work have the look of any particular chip?
http://frejhedenberg.com/ (http://frejhedenberg.com/)
Anyway, I don't worry about using the same chip as others, as it seems to me that the look of anyone's work is 99% due to the lighting and what's in front of the camera.
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Does this guy's work have the look of any particular chip?
http://frejhedenberg.com/ (http://frejhedenberg.com/)
Very nice work. Thanks for that link. I understand what you're saying.
I did see a few blurred double-image things; must have been the mirror slap from the H1...
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Good point. The longer I shoot digital, the more interesting the above two paragraphs become. If it ain't broke, why go fixing something, especially if it complicates your life to a massive degree? You work and work to perfect a trademark look, and then here comes a chip that everyone is shooting. The exact same chip.
Aren't you describing the strength of digital, rather than the weakness? The exact same chip = the exact same film stock? How do you then modify that chip or film stock? I suppose you could point to there being more choice of film stocks than chips, and switching to a different film stock costs a lot less than switching to a different chip, but then switching film stocks isn't necessarily conducive towards establishing a trademark look either, is it?
There's an awful lot that goes into a trademark look, and perhaps the film stock is a base, but I see no reason why a chip with your own custom signature cannot be a base either.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Very nice work. Thanks for that link. I understand what you're saying.
I did see a few blurred double-image things; must have been the mirror slap from the H1...
Good guess gwhitf, as I have heard plenty about that H slap. But, these are all shot by a good friend of mine with the Canon 5D. Not that it matters which camera, as the images are lovely (IMO) and that's all anyone really cares about in the end.
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But, these are all shot by a good friend of mine with the Canon 5D. Not that it matters which camera, as the images are lovely (IMO) and that's all anyone really cares about in the end.
Strong work, Lisa. Clear vision. But you go and mention the usability of Canon in this forum, and you'll be called to task. Them is fightin' words.
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Aren't you describing the strength of digital, rather than the weakness? The exact same chip = the exact same film stock? How do you then modify that chip or film stock? I suppose you could point to there being more choice of film stocks than chips, and switching to a different film stock costs a lot less than switching to a different chip, but then switching film stocks isn't necessarily conducive towards establishing a trademark look either, is it?
There's an awful lot that goes into a trademark look, and perhaps the film stock is a base, but I see no reason why a chip with your own custom signature cannot be a base either.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Uh sure, lighting, composition, talent selection, wardrobe, sets, scenes, locations, style artists all play into it.
And you can make digital look like any film stock. the problem is you HAVE to make it look like a film stock vs. the fact that it does. Digital on the back end requires more work, more time.
Go to this site and view under portraits, especially John Hurt's section
http://www.art-dept.com/artists/poynter/ (http://www.art-dept.com/artists/poynter/)
Tell me what digital camera responds with those colors "out of camera".
Like it or not, you'd be amazed as you go upstream the number of AD's you talk to that would be shocked if a photographer told them preferred digital.
You' would also be surprise at the number of truly great photographers that continue to shoot film.
We all have two lives. The work we show that gets us work and the work we do for commerce. For commerce digital is that ugly beast we can't get out of the room, because everybody wants to see it and see it now. It doesn't add to the creative process, usually hinders it, but it's just a reality we have all learned to live with.
For the work we do to get the commerce, film in many ways is a much better alternative.
If I was comissioned to shoot a look like those John Hurt portraits and was forced to use digital, I'd use a Leica M8 because the color response is so screwy it will produce a unique look.
Though shooting the M8 will be a lot harder than shooting film.
For me, the digital camera company that builds better "film stocks" into their software would make me a lot happier than another 20mpx.
From last week I have the same image, side by side with the Canons and Phase and though the Phase file has slightly more depth, holds the highlights slightly better the color response is way, way, way too sensitive. The faces pick up every bit of ambient color and it's very hard to get them back down without throwing the whole look off. Where on the other hand the Canons are a "little" better at this, a little more color dumb, though once again nothing like those John Hurt photos.
I know the digital equipment makers (that is a new term I now use for camera companies, since photographers are now called end users) have to cover the middle ground and be sure that reds are reds, blues are blue, etc. etc., but we generally are not hired to shoot reality. We're hired to shoot a beautiful interpretation of reality.
So my take on this is if I had to buy another digital camera, I'd just buy used because in a commercial setting with 10,000 watts of strobes, the P25+ will pretty much do what a p45+ will do or for that matter any other brand. After they are all using the same sensors for the same two companies.
If I'm wrong on this please show me the examples, because if there is a camera out there that really will change my work for the better, I'm willing to invest.
BC
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You' would also be surprise at the number of truly great photographers that continue to shoot film.
While I don't disagree with your statement, it is not a useful basis for extrapolation. What would be far more informative is how many up-and-coming great photographers will use film versus digital. This group of photographers have no vested interest in film, no hard-to-kill habits, or general prejudices, in either direction. They will simply use what they prefer, and walk their own path.
Any number of existing great photographers use film because it is what they know, not because it is necessarily even better for their purposes. The type of mind which does excellent work with chemicals and the darkroom is not necessarily the same type of mind which can do great work on a computer, and vice versa. Some can make the jump, some not, although the majority of photographers will be somewhere in the middle, with a solid group who can do film better than digital, regardless of the potential of each medium. Some who can make the jump choose not to, some choose to do it.
I think that the transition from film to digital will coincide with a generational transition of "chemically minded" photographers to those more "computationally minded", with a few being able to straddle the gap. It is IMO simply a question of time passing, and the old greats retiring, before the above statement is false, even though nothing will change about the background facts of chemistry vs. digital.
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Them is fightin' words.
True. :-)
Just got back from the international magazine store. What's funny about fashion right now is that while the backs get higher rez/sharper/etc., lots of fashion photography is going in the opposite direction. People going out of their way to make their digital images look blurry, soft, shallow d.o.f., adding grain, and generally making it look like someone kicked the tripod.
Lots of it looks really good. Still, when you know someone was shooting with a 40mp Phase but it looks like Sarah Moon did it...it's interesting is all I'm saying.
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I know the digital equipment makers (that is a new term I now use for camera companies, since photographers are now called end users) have to cover the middle ground and be sure that reds are reds, blues are blue, etc. etc., but we generally are not hired to shoot reality. We're hired to shoot a beautiful interpretation of reality.
So my take on this is if I had to buy another digital camera, I'd just buy used because in a commercial setting with 10,000 watts of strobes, the P25+ will pretty much do what a p45+ will do or for that matter any other brand. After they are all using the same sensors for the same two companies.
If I'm wrong on this please show me the examples, because if there is a camera out there that really will change my work for the better, I'm willing to invest.
BC
Did you look at the link I posted to my friend frej''s work? Look through his site.
http://frejhedenberg.com/ (http://frejhedenberg.com/)
I don't know about you, but I think those images look like they could be film, digital, polaroid, who knows what. But they are all one camera, one chip. And he doesn't spend his entire life in front of the computer getting those looks either.
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Lots of it looks really good. Still, when you know someone was shooting with a 40mp Phase but it looks like Sarah Moon did it...it's interesting is all I'm saying.
Regarding Master Cooter's link, the telltale difference between digital and film are the highlights. When you see that giant HMI blasting in from the rear, and there's no grain in those highlights, it makes it awfully tough to create fake grain/noise to match film.
A friend turned me onto that Alien Skin Exposure, but I've never been able to make it work very well. All the presets are WAY too intense; nothing very subtle at all. You can tell a "old" photographer tried to do that software, due to the way the Presets are described. Oddly, there's not a "Sarah Moon" preset in the bunch, or even a "tripod that's been kicked".
Fried highlights just scare me in digital.
Obviously, there is a gigantic segment of the marketplace that loves digital, and it certainly makes the job easier. This is the straight-ahead, missionary-position segment of the market. But you venture into some of the more creative areas, in fashion and editorial, and I'd bet you'd be surprised how many people are still shooting film, (and loving the grain).
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i am not bashing anyone....really....but isn't this thread about prices for sinar cameras/backs?
we are on page 5 and we still don't have an answer to the question: WHAT ARE THE PRICES IN THE US?
it might be a small market and the economy might not be so hot but i still think this could be of interest to some people.....
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we are on page 5 and we still don't have an answer to the question: WHAT ARE THE PRICES IN THE US?
it might be a small market and the economy might not be so hot but i still think this could be of interest to some people.....
you are right!
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While I don't disagree with your statement, it is not a useful basis for extrapolation. What would be far more informative is how many up-and-coming great photographers will use film versus digital. This group of photographers have no vested interest in film, no hard-to-kill habits, or general prejudices, in either direction. They will simply use what they prefer, and walk their own path.
Any number of existing great photographers use film because it is what they know, not because it is necessarily even better for their purposes. The type of mind which does excellent work with chemicals and the darkroom is not necessarily the same type of mind which can do great work on a computer, and vice versa. Some can make the jump, some not, although the majority of photographers will be somewhere in the middle, with a solid group who can do film better than digital, regardless of the potential of each medium. Some who can make the jump choose not to, some choose to do it.
I think that the transition from film to digital will coincide with a generational transition of "chemically minded" photographers to those more "computationally minded", with a few being able to straddle the gap. It is IMO simply a question of time passing, and the old greats retiring, before the above statement is false, even though nothing will change about the background facts of chemistry vs. digital.
I really don't agree. Are you saying that the older minds are using film because it's all they know, and they are not computer literate? I think they are more clever than you give them credit. The big problem with digital is it's difficult to get the end result to look unique with a bit of mojo and atmosphere. If you're not careful it can look like everybody else's work.
With film it's easier, just choose the equipment and film stock to give you the result you require. As everybody gets excited about the latest sharpest expensive lens from Leica/Schneider/Zeiss or whoever I'm just buying older lenses, real cheap they are too.
Those John Hurt portraits from Phil Poynter are just great, I'd be interested to know if they are film.
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I really don't agree. Are you saying that the older minds are using film because it's all they know, and they are not computer literate? I think they are more clever than you give them credit. The big problem with digital is it's difficult to get the end result to look unique with a bit of mojo and atmosphere. If you're not careful it can look like everybody else's work.
No, I am saying that *some* of them use film, because that is what they know. *Some* are making the transition, *some* are capable of doing so, but choose not to. *Some* would never be able to do as well with digital as with film.
There is also the category with those who know how to do film, have learned how to do digital, but are grumpy all the way. That would be big cooter
I am saying that those who already know film are generally biased. They may not be unfair, but they knew and loved the one before the other came and it is almost impossible to look at the situation with a virgin mind under those circumstances. Digital will really come into its own when the new generations don't know film or digital, are presented with both, and make their choice. Then we will truly know which medium has a stronger following, due to its own virtues.
By the way, I didn't mention this in the first post, but aside from the fact that some pros want film looks in the digital workflow, from the manufacturer side they have to look at the business case for doing so. Generally, people want it, but if they are already paying X-thousand Dollars for their back, they probably won't pay more for such a solution. They will want it included, due to the already high price. This almost certainly makes it non-viable. However, as an after-market solution from companies like (or better than) Adobe, it could easily make sense. Then there will be no free lunch, however.
With film it's easier, just choose the equipment and film stock to give you the result you require. As everybody gets excited about the latest sharpest expensive lens from Leica/Schneider/Zeiss or whoever I'm just buying older lenses, real cheap they are too.
The number of films X the number of equipment choices is not likely to give you a larger number of possibilities than all the digital tools which are now available.
I think it is too easy to dismiss digital and say that film is great. However, digital has a very, very large number of advantages which it is all too easy to forget, and it is impossible to screw the clock back. Digital happened, all that is left for you to do is to find a new spot to stand.
But this discussion is sooooooooooooooo old. The only reason it keeps coming back is that film lovers keep complain that film is better than digital. To them I say, don't complain, use it.
Those John Hurt portraits from Phil Poynter are just great, I'd be interested to know if they are film.
You mean you can't tell!?!? (I am not trying to be an ass, just making a point here.)
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Well it sure looks like film to me.....
I have to say I love digital too for certain things. Just as I love film for certain things. Each has it's own strengths, but I just don't wear blinkers and think digital is the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's just another tool.
Anyway, where are the Sinar prices for the USA ?
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Well it sure looks like film to me.....
I have to say I love digital too for certain things. Just as I love film for certain things. Each has it's own strengths, but I just don't wear blinkers and think digital is the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's just another tool.
For the record, I don't think digital is the greatest thing since sliced bread either, but neither is film. Used right, both can give stunning results and both have strengths.
I do think that there is digital and then there is digital. I remember when I finally got my anxiously anticipated Canon EOS 5D, which was going to answer all my prayers and give me the quality I craved: my initial reaction was to send a concerned letter to the shop I bought it from and point out that it didn't seem to be able to focus properly, since the results were really soft. I since learned that this is just the Canon look. Oh well. Within a year I had sold it and bought an M8. The M8 is a troublesome camera with some deep limitations, but I love it, and I just couldn't deal with the soft look of the Canon files. Why the hell should I have to wrestle with USM and other ways of compensating for the inherent softness of the file?
Whatever you might say about the reliability and convenience of MF digital, the files are head and shoulders above Canon files, out of the box. I can understand that big cooter is so grumpy since he has to use them all the time
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i am not bashing anyone....really....but isn't this thread about prices for sinar cameras/backs?
we are on page 5 and we still don't have an answer to the question: WHAT ARE THE PRICES IN THE US?
it might be a small market and the economy might not be so hot but i still think this could be of interest to some people.....
Thank you! I'd like to see the official US price on the 54LV which is what I asked about on page 3. It's now close of business on Monday and no response from Sinarbron (in this thread). And no replies from the email I sent PPR over the weekend asking the same.
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You mean you can't tell!?!? (I am not trying to be an ass, just making a point here.)
[/quote]
I would not presume it was film, despite it having that appearance.. without know the photographer and his history, and given
the state of retouching art which we find ourselves I would not be surprised to find out that it was digital. what is not possible these days?
but I am not as knowledgeable as some here.
I was hoping this was where I could see some new adjusted prices posted by sinarbron imaging.
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I was hoping this was where I could see some new adjusted prices posted by sinarbron imaging.
This is where we really see the advantages of the distributor/dealer network *cough*. Sinar apparently sells directly from the factory. How about a European vacation?
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Very amusing notions about film vs digital - 'look(s)' - a lot of stereotyping going on. As if film ever delivered a 'style' that wasnt copied as soon as it came out....
A short note on Sinar 'prices' ( and veryone else's for that matter)
It isnt as 'easy' for wholesalers and then dealers ( in many countries like Australia for example they are one and the same ) to put out prices that they are then compelled to sign off on an stick to fr a period of time. You have a little detail like wild currency flctuations to contend with. For example the Euro/AUD exchange rate has blown out to a high of 1.9X in the last 2 months - the previous trading band was 1.55-1.65X. You have a lot of issues going on in ariving at a 'price'. I dont think people should hold their breath waiting for one simple price based on the day to day fluctuations of currency cross rates of teh Euro. As someone explained in another thread, the ordering/manufacturing/selling cycles are all interlinked.
the manufacturers haev an aggravated difficulty by being forced to bringi out new versions of their backs on an 18 month cycle - which is linked to the depreciaion of cycle that various taxataion regimes put out. Everyone wants these small boutique manufacturing concerns to match the volume box selling marketing strategies with bells on so well mastered by the Japanese and their stable Yen - which is based on their dead economy.
I look forward to Sinar's Australian prices being delivered later this week - the product line up from this company including backs/camera type lineups from View to technical to Hy6 and lenses is simply outstanding and recent pricing adjustments combined with improved hardware architecture have made me consider their backs and total system intergrationa and flexibility as a realistic option for the first time. If I dont like the dealer prices - maybe a nice holiday to Swirtzerland and a visit to the factory is called for - at least I save 10% on GST/VAT straight away. ..
Happy to give an economy ticket for two worth of margin to the local guys - but draw the line at 2 first class tickets.
Cheers
Pete
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I actually have only 2 things to say:
- either you do apologize for your "sad" insult.
or
- Michael: if I do not get an apology in due form and retraction of words which have nothing to do in a forum, I wish this member to be banned from this forum.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
It seems that you're getting bashed quite a lot. I don't see it happening 'together with other MF players', partly because other MF players don't present 'information' the way you do.
It is by no means a crime as you said, but I certainly question your integrity due to the huge discrepancy.
Aw-shucks, Thierry got his feelings hurt again. Maybe a love-in with the katoeys of Patpong will help you to get over it.
All the very best to your marketing career.
Shug
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Exactly!
I have never said that my feelings are hurt, and It will actually go a long way until someone can hurt my feelings.
But yes, it's tiring to answer all and everytime the same posts, with the same complains and the same insults from certain people around in this forum.
I feel a complete lack of basic education and respect, and this is saddening rather than hurting feelings.
Thanks,
Thierry
I don't think Thierry is talking about hurt feelings, but the frustration at having to respond to the same (mostly false) criticisms over and over and over again. I think he does so with patience and integrity, and many have expressed this same opinion in this forum. You're on your own.
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and to put a final point to this sad chapter of this thread, below my official writing to Michael:
Thierry
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Dear Michael,
I wish to express my disapproval and to officially complain about a LL member's post and words:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....28717&st=60 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28717&st=60)
Post N°67, from member "Sean Reginald Knight"
It is not the first time that this members throws insults at me, but this time it is going a bit too far and has sexual connotations which cannot be accepted in a public forum.
I therefore have to ask for either:
1. a public apology from this member, and a retraction for ALL of his words and suggestions,
or
2. if full apology and retraction is not made in due time, I am asking for this member to be banned from this forum.
Thanks for understanding my position and best regards,
Thierry
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FYI:
Sinar has reduced the recommended enduser price of the following Sinarbacks and Sinar Hy6 Camera Systems:
A. Sinarbacks eMotion & eVolution
1. Sinarback eMotion 54 LV (22 MPx)
New Price Euro 6'037.- (old Euro 8'524.-)
-------8<------- snipped!
Thierry
Er... getting back on the topic, I think that this is a really excelent price, especially for someone looking to get into medium format digital, there are more and better choices now than ever before, but that's the way it works with all products though. Too bad I'm not in a position to upgrade right now!
I remember when I bought my Apple Macintosh Powerbook 1400c/133 - I remember paying GBP 3,200 for it, including an uprade to 64MB RAM, and then, just 2 weeks later, Apple discontinued it and the Powerbook 2400 and 3400 were in the shops. The sales people at the shop never even hinted that new models were on the way - they were almost twice as fast, and were priced starting at GBP 1,700 only! So, bad luck for me, but it still served me well. To single out any one company for doing this is silly because they all do it, and those who had benefited from the price drop would be celebrating because they got such a good deal. Those who bought just before would be crying foul, but if you were in charge of that company, I think you would have done the same. So? Just focus on taking great pictures with your tools.
Thierry, if I understand correctly, there are no Sinar distributors in Malaysia?
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Dear All,
It appears there is an error in our Marketing Bulletin. I will check into it on Monday. Sorry for any confusion. I will post the correct pricing at that time.
Sincerely,
Greg King
Sinar Bron Imaging
Greg,
Looking forward to hearing about the new pricing...
Eric Hiss
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Er... getting back on the topic, I think that this is a really excelent price, especially for someone looking to get into medium format digital, ....
Yes, I would like it as well, to return to the topic of this tread, rather than reading insults leading nowhere.
Thierry, if I understand correctly, there are no Sinar distributors in Malaysia?
There is a Sinar distributor, since last week:
Mr. Ket Chong Lai (KC)
L12A-1-1, Palm Square Jaya One,
72A, Jalan Universiti,
462000 Petaling Jaya
Selangor
E-mail: ketchong@streamyx.com
Mobil No: +60122837768
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
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Yes, I would like it as well,
Thierry
Thierry,
Getting back to the original topic. Is the new 65 or 31mpx camera not included in these prices and will it receive the same reduction in price?
Also since a lot of these products you listed are the 22mpx and 33mpx backs and given that the reduced pricing has a time stamp, are these products going to be continued in the Sinar lineup, especially since Sinar has a new arrangement with Leaf, or are these products going to be discontinued?
Now one last questions and not just U.S., but world centric. When will the world wide prices be published?
Also can you publish Sinar's U.S. distributors contact information?
BC
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Dear BC,
Thierry,
Getting back to the original topic. Is the new 65 or 31mpx camera not included in these prices and will it receive the same reduction in price?
I have published already the prices for the Sinar Hy6 65, and for the Sinarback eSprit 65, here:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=27940 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=27940)
They are not changing, since published recently, on September 15th.
Also since a lot of these products you listed are the 22mpx and 33mpx backs and given that the reduced pricing has a time stamp, are these products going to be continued in the Sinar lineup, especially since Sinar has a new arrangement with Leaf, or are these products going to be discontinued?
There are no plans yet to discontinue these Sinarbacks.
Now one last questions and not just U.S., but world centric. When will the world wide prices be published?
I have already published our "Worldwide Recommended Prices". They are sent worldwide, to ALL distributors.
Also can you publish Sinar's U.S. distributors contact information?
Here:
Sinar Bron Imaging
17 Progress Street
Edison, N.J. 08820
Telefon: (+1) 908 754 58 00
Fax: (+1) 908 754 58 07
E-Mail: info@sinarbron.com
Webseite: www.sinarbron.com
Best regards,
Thierry
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Dear BC,
With the risk of being tiring myself, I wish to answer and correct:
Also for the record a lot of people that get called dissenters or negative are actually writing not to complain, but to honestly put in direct terms what they expect when it comes to handing over hard earned cash. I would think some of that information is invaluable.
Yes, BC, IT IS invaluable information, and I (we) are very much thankful for it, BUT:
- the very same information has been repeated and repeated over and over again. At a certain point it is not longer information, and does not bring anybody further.
AND
- some of the so-called "dissenters" and "negative" (very few, in fact) are not all providing information, but mainly finding their interest in insulting persons and bashing products: I do and shall continue to regard these persons as lacking of any basic education and respect. And I do honestly ask myself what are the reasons behind and why this need.
Forums and blogs are interesting how they change tone. A few years ago everyone said, where are the makers, the reps, the technical people and now we have them. I find some of that good, but I also know that regardless of how forthright and honest most of them are, there is still an agenda to put the best light on their product. It would be foolish not to.
As long as one does provide fair and true information, there is definitively nothing wrong with it, putting the product in" the best light".
But I also understand is the sword cuts both ways. You can't use what is essentially a public forum to advertise products and not take some hard questions.
But then again, why is world pricing such a hard question to answer, especially when asked by someone that is a potential buyer? Especially in todays economy, which recent events prove that when it comes to money we are all in this together, like it or not. The dollar is hooked to the Euro, the Yen and the Pound.
I have NO PROBLEM at all with "hard questions", and even welcome them, to some extend, only and solely when the same has been repeated for months almost every day OR with "INSULTS" and "DISRESPECT". This being said, I do not see myself as "advertising" products.
If the question is related to the Sinar US prices not yet published/corrected, as promised by Greg King above/below to be done on Monday: I have been in contact with Greg and he will put these prices here, but is simply asking for a bit patience.
... so why is it so offensive if someone asks how much is a Sinar, or for that matter any piece of equipment if I bought it in Russia, New York or Sydney?
Nothing offensive in asking prices, BC. I will try to explain it again: I cannot and do not accept insults and disrespect, and shall answer each and any single time. If in addition these insults do suggest "sexual behaviour", or do have a racist or religious connotation, then I am asking for an apology and retraction of what was suggested or claimed, when it concerns my person.
If I sold cameras, I'd look at these type of threads as an opportunity to answer the hard questions. I would use this as an entry to mention great service, better product, clearer pricing and if I didn't have positive answers to those questions I would explain with clarity how I planned to achieve those goals.
That's what I am trying to do, with the help of some distributors/dealers.
In other words I would look for a way to turn the conversation around into a positive message rather than get hurt feelings.
You did not get it: it is not about "hurt feelings" and I don't have "hurt feelings" at all! It is about education, about respect, and about a view of life which I personally do not support and understand: sexual, racial and religious comments have to be out of such a discussion forum. I hope I express myself clearly enough this time.
I also believe you should appreciate our responses because obviously you find value here or you wouldn't have logged on in the first place.
Yes, I do. But then, I found/find especially value to it because it is my passion. I could live without Sinar, but certainly not without photography. If I am here it's because of this passion and because I do learn myself and here as well much.
If the makers that have recently joined this forum want a theme where people just praise product then there are places out there that offer this.
I don't want this, and don't think ever have given this feeling.
The alternative to this is to go to someone like Jake Chessum who is on the editorial A-list and ask him why he shoots film with an RZ instead of digital. Hand him an HY6 and H3dII (I hope I have that right because some of these names get confusing) and ask for an unvarnished, no hurt feelings, no praise the brand response.
I think we did and still do this.
Since this thread was based on price and that became objectionable, ask these or other working photographers how they respond when some art buyer, or photo editor screams why is the invoice not clear and understandable.
I doubt seriously if the photographer responds by saying, "I am getting a bit tired to get bashed all the time "
BC, when the very same issues are repeated day after day, the way you do it, IT IS tiring: I did answer those very same issues, where I could answer, many times. I did agree to forward and I did so. I did as well clearly say that some points cannot be changed within a few days. And I did as well say it clearly, when I did not know an answer. Please accept that it can be understood only as "bashing", especially in this case and about prices, when it is then repeated again. It is eventually also not much giving respect to the time all these company reps and dealers spend here to try to help.
Thanks for your understanding and best regards,
Thierry
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There is a Sinar distributor, since last week:
Mr. Ket Chong Lai (KC)
L12A-1-1, Palm Square Jaya One,
72A, Jalan Universiti,
46200 Petaling Jaya
Selangor
E-mail: ketchong@streamyx.com
Mobil No: +60122837768
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Oh, that's great! "Jaya One" is a very nice new redevelopment of the area, that building has been open less than a year, I think, and is only 5 minutes drive from where I live. Thanks for the info.
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Thirry,
I sign on your petition to Michael to demand LL member's retraction and apology for that below the belt sexual insult. It can't and should not be tolerated here among pros.
On the topic of prices I believe that Sinar USA does incredible job to prevent any Sinar products entering the USA professional market. If I was considering a Sinar product purchase I would run away with assumption that my whole service is going to look the same way.
Couple weeks ago I went to buy new Jag. Do you think I would drive home with a car if I heard that they can not quote me because it is a British car and the Pound Sterling currency is constantly changing as compare to dollar. Someone needs to shake things in your company and someone has to do it very quick.
Someone at Sinar needs to spend some time in USA to start to understand how things are done here and what we demand for our money. Otherwise the story will continue the same way. You have a good product with a great price?, but among the dozens of pros that I know personally nobody but nobody even considers your product. Go figure.
http://AndreNapier.com (http://AndreNapier.com)
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Seconded.
There is a difference between teasing a rep -which is a forum sport- and viciously insulting him which is what Mr. Knight has done.
Edmund
and to put a final point to this sad chapter of this thread, below my official writing to Michael:
Thierry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Michael,
I wish to express my disapproval and to officially complain about a LL member's post and words:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....28717&st=60 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28717&st=60)
Post N°67, from member "Sean Reginald Knight"
It is not the first time that this members throws insults at me, but this time it is going a bit too far and has sexual connotations which cannot be accepted in a public forum.
I therefore have to ask for either:
1. a public apology from this member, and a retraction for ALL of his words and suggestions,
or
2. if full apology and retraction is not made in due time, I am asking for this member to be banned from this forum.
Thanks for understanding my position and best regards,
Thierry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Mr Knight has been contacted by email to enquire if he wishes to retract his comments or apologise.
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I miss old days i.e. pre- Nov2007 when people were polite, inquisitive & supportive. I can't help & notice that this new flux of posters that are now infesting LL is bringing that tone from campaigns, that one can look smart if one puts others down. So all those Ratatouillees, please, scurry back in a hurry.
ps. Just check the registration dates of these combative keyboard culprits.
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Dear Andre,
While I do understand your and others frustration about prices in the USA not being known and published yet, I wish to inform also that our distributor is working on it intensively: I was told that this will be done within this week.
Thanks for your understanding and best regards,
Thierry
On the topic of prices I believe that Sinar USA does incredible job to prevent any Sinar products entering the USA professional market. If I was considering a Sinar product purchase I would run away with assumption that my whole service is going to look the same way.
http://AndreNapier.com (http://AndreNapier.com)
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While I do understand your and others frustration about prices in the USA not being known and published yet, I wish to inform also that our distributor is working on it intensively: I was told that this will be done within this week.
Will this be complete and ready to go by Photo East this week? If we came to that booth, would there be a working camera and 65 back there, and would USA prices be ready?
Thanks.
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Dear gwithf,
Yes, this is my understanding, that prices and the Sinarback eSprit 65 will be both available during the Photo East.
Best regards,
Thierry
Will this be complete and ready to go by Photo East this week? If we came to that booth, would there be a working camera and 65 back there, and would USA prices be ready?
Thanks.
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Think yourself lucky that you're not living in the UK, getting pricing information on any MFD product is a nightmare.
This is a plea for all MFD manufacturer representatives to chase the tail/put a rocket up the backside of their partners/resellers/sellers, (OK, I'll exclude Robert White here who do an excellent job updating the current Hasselblad pricing). I'm sick and tired of going to websites only to be faced with prices and information that haven't been updated in months or a request to "call for prices".
i admit it is frustrating to see americans put down european's business acumen due to medium format manufacturers, and i admit there is no up to date pricing in the uk, but just buy a canon - it will do it all and what it can't do - just do a stitch - if the medium format manufactures don't want to be successful businesses, they wont be around anyway, so get used to canon now
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Yes, BC, IT IS invaluable information, and I (we) are very much thankful for it, BUT:
- the very same information has been repeated and repeated over and over again. At a certain point it is not longer information, and does not bring anybody further.
Thierry
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point. Take the case of a decent back for the Hasselblad 203FE/205FCC. We have the Hassie reps telling us that nobody asks for it even when they have had a huge portion of the Hasselblad users in that very thread ask for it. Clearly we are not asking enough.
We have Phase releasing their top-of-the-line back with a horrid lcd on it despite the fact that almost every single MFDB owner has asked for improvements. Clearly Phase is not being asked enough.
I agree that the rancor has no place here, but if the manufacturers will not listen, people will just get louder, until of course they get completely silent because they have moved to a platform where the companies are listening.
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Dear ggs,
when I was saying that "the very same information has been repeated and repeated over and over again. At a certain point it is not longer information, and does not bring anybody further", I was speaking about a certain wish-list posted long ago, already 1 year ago or more. I was speaking from the standpoint of Sinar and saying that some then important raised issues have been taken in account and implemented with the new Sinar Hy6 65 camera system: this includes a bigger 3" and brighter screen with high-resolution of 640x480 ppi, fast in-board processing of DNGs and JPGs and RAWs or a combination of it, including automatic menu orientation, Images, histogram, sensitivity, on-board exposure warning, memory status, automatic WB or preset WB or manual WB, including faster shooting rate of 1 frame/second, including higher ISO from 100 to 800, including 1 battery for both the camera and digital back, etc ..., for both Mac and Windows platforms and the whole at a price of about Euro 12'000.- for a 31 MPx digital camera system.
I was (and still am) believing that those major issues brought by some here had been addressed by this new product. But the same is still questioned again and again. Questions like "when is it available?" has been answered as well. When it comes to warranty issues, they have been answered many times (3-year standard warranty for all Sinar products).
Then, there are some questions which I don't and can't answer, and for which I prefer the dealers/distributors giving the right answer: servicing policy, typical turnaround time, rental, etc ... are issues which can and do change from one country to another and can be answered precisely only by those distributors. I have referred to those distributors and a call to them, if one is interested in the product, would give a clear answer as well.
Having said this, I was speaking for Sinar, not for Hasselblad or Phase One. I have no right, no intention nor even knowledge to speak for them. The answers I have given are exclusively concerning Sinar.
And that is when I am saying that further posts bringing the very same issues do not help any further. I can affirm here loud and clear that I have read carefully such demands when they were made 1 year ago and until recently. And I can affirm that I have forwarded and supported if not all then most of them. The result of this has been seen with the announced product a few months ago. If one is now really interested the next step should be to try and test this product, as soon as available. Then all the remaining questions can be addressed and one can decide in full knowledge if this product is the right one or not.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point. Take the case of a decent back for the Hasselblad 203FE/205FCC. We have the Hassie reps telling us that nobody asks for it even when they have had a huge portion of the Hasselblad users in that very thread ask for it. Clearly we are not asking enough.
We have Phase releasing their top-of-the-line back with a horrid lcd on it despite the fact that almost every single MFDB owner has asked for improvements. Clearly Phase is not being asked enough.
I agree that the rancor has no place here, but if the manufacturers will not listen, people will just get louder, until of course they get completely silent because they have moved to a platform where the companies are listening.
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I agree that the rancor has no place here, but if the manufacturers will not listen, people will just get louder, until of course they get completely silent because they have moved to a platform where the companies are listening.
To Thierry,
This person makes a good point.
I would also offer that, to even the loudest of voices, we are ALL rooting for you to succeed. Anyone that's in here giving you feedback is rooting for medium format to survive; otherwise they'd be in a Canon forum, or doing something else. So if they're in here giving feedback, it's that some portion of their business is not being addressed, or is being hampered by some facet of the medium format camera/back that they're using.
Again, we are ALL rooting for your success, and Gallagher's success, and Steve's success, and that humorless Ulf guy. And Hasselblad too. And Yair too.
So many of us WANT to shoot medium format, but when 35 might deliver so much more efficiently in certain areas, at some point, you might have to switch, but it doesn't mean you WANT TO.
I'd venture to say that most of us really want even a 6x7 chip, because we came out of that when we shot film (for years and years). So there's some History involved here in the frustration.
So here's raising a glass that we ALL muddle through these crazy economic times, and at the end of 2009, we're all still kicking.
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To Thierry,
This person makes a good point.
I would also offer that, to even the loudest of voices, we are ALL rooting for you to succeed. Anyone that's in here giving you feedback is rooting for medium format to survive; otherwise they'd be in a Canon forum, or doing something else. So if they're in here giving feedback, it's that some portion of their business is not being addressed, or is being hampered by some facet of the medium format camera/back that they're using.
Again, we are ALL rooting for your success, and Gallagher's success, and Steve's success, and that humorless Ulf guy. And Hasselblad too. And Yair too.
So many of us WANT to shoot medium format, but when 35 might deliver so much more efficiently in certain areas, at some point, you might have to switch, but it doesn't mean you WANT TO.
I'd venture to say that most of us really want even a 6x7 chip, because we came out of that when we shot film (for years and years). So there's some History involved here in the frustration.
So here's raising a glass that we ALL muddle through these crazy economic times, and at the end of 2009, we're all still kicking.
I don't understand what all the fuss is about. If the digital equipment makers don't want to read a thread then just skip it, like changing a channel. I really don't think it matters anyway, as no matter what any of us say, we will all speak with our wallets.
If a product is good, or even better, available and the price is right (or the price is known) then it should sell. If not it won't and that will be that.
These are good times for our studio, but we are well aware it's tough out there so we have to be on our game all the time. Same with any supplier we use.
We all work with a variety of people, clients and suppliers and all of us have to respond with positive answers that mean something today. I have clients that ask repetitive questions and it doesn't bother me in the least. I assume their busy, I assume they have a lot going on and most importantly I assume they want total assurance that me and my studio is going to deliver as promised.
Nothing wrong with that, in fact I like the clients that take a project seriously and demand the best we can give or (even better), more than we did before. It means they will probably bring something valuable to the project.
Is it frustrating, sometimes, but It's a tough world out there, for everyone.
If I wanted it easy I would have gone into banking, uh well . . . maybe not.
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I don't understand what all the fuss is about. If the digital equipment makers don't want to read a thread then just skip it, like changing a channel.
James, there are many posts in here which are plain inaccurate and when people read them and take them to heart then rumours can start. Sometimes potentially damaging rumours. Example: when LL reported that Sinar would no longer be making digital backs. It is fortunate that Sinar has someone like Thierry to catch this rumour as early as possible, and to correct it.
That was an extreme example, but time and time again I have seen plain nonsense posted about Sinar products. Should a company rep let these false statements stand? Would you do that if it were your business? I hope not. Recent example: someone posted that Phase backs were the only fanless backs and all other backs could be damaged by dust (implying that Sinar backs used fans and ventilation holes). Thierry was quick to correct both of these points.
Then there is the annoyance due to people posting the same questions over and over, without bothering to search the forum first. If they made just a little effort to search they would see that the answers are already there. This is just bad 'netiquette' in any forum, and 're-posters' can be dealt with quite savagely in other forums. Recent examples: several requests for the pricing of the Sinar eSprit 65 when there is in fact a whole thread devoted to this. Or the countless question about Sinar's US distributor. Or when is Exposure 6.1 going to be released. Or why no backs have usable ISO 800 (Thierry posted some very impressive iso 800 samples from the second generation e75). The list goes on.
Gss, these are not 'wishlist' items for the benefit of the back makers, but just people spreading their own ignorance or being too thoughtless and selfish to look for an answer themselves. All forums suffer from this, to varying degrees. As for the wishlists, the Sinar eSprit 65 is the first real leap forward I've seen from any back maker, including many improvements in one generation. Sinar is listening it seems.
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Dear ggs,
the new Sinar Hy6 65 camera system: this includes a bigger 3" and brighter screen with high-resolution of 640x480 ppi, fast in-board processing of DNGs and JPGs and RAWs or a combination of it, including automatic menu orientation, Images, histogram, sensitivity, on-board exposure warning, memory status, automatic WB or preset WB or manual WB, including faster shooting rate of 1 frame/second, including higher ISO from 100 to 800, including 1 battery for both the camera and digital back, etc ..., for both Mac and Windows platforms and the whole at a price of about Euro 12'000.- for a 31 MPx digital camera system.
I was (and still am) believing that those major issues brought by some here had been addressed by this new product.
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Sinar s65r = Oooiii TRES MAGNIFIQUE, geben Sie mir einen Kuss das ist gut ich liebe Dich
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c213/poata/140_0_hy6-65_mit-display_final-kl.jpg)
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David,
I am in Auckland since 2 days, with our distributor Adam: too bad that you are not in town!
Leaving this night.
All the best,
Thierry
Sinar s65r = Oooiii TRES MAGNIFIQUE, geben Sie mir einen Kuss das ist gut ich liebe Dich
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David,
I am in Auckland since 2 days, with our distributor Adam: too bad that you are not in town!
Leaving this night.
All the best,
Thierry
Sorry I'll miss ya, would have been nice to catch up for a chat.
Can't wait to get my paws all over this baby for a thorough work out & maybe a romantic dinner for two LOL
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Sinar s65r = Oooiii TRES MAGNIFIQUE, geben Sie mir einen Kuss das ist gut ich liebe Dich
I love the theory behind this camera.
I still wonder though, has anyone ever shot a real job with a PocketWizard sticking out the left side of that thing? Can you left hand actually get in there and actually hold the camera and focus properly? Would the PocketWizard snap off of there by lunchtime?
Wasn't there a 45 Finder for this thing, where the PocketWizard could mount up top, out of the way?
And please, can we have a moratorium on fake stripped-in LCD screens? When the actual LCD is that tight and vibrant, I'll open my checkbook and pay List + 20%. After all the years of questions and complaints over the LCDs of these backs, and then to have a company, in the year 2008, market their back with a stripped-in LCD image, well, I take it as an offense to all serious photographers. Completely insensitive.
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I love the theory behind this camera.
I still wonder though, has anyone ever shot a real job with a PocketWizard sticking out the left side of that thing? Can you left hand actually get in there and actually hold the camera and focus properly? Would the PocketWizard snap off of there by lunchtime?
Wasn't there a 45 Finder for this thing, where the PocketWizard could mount up top, out of the way?
And please, can we have a moratorium on fake stripped-in LCD screens? When the actual LCD is that tight and vibrant, I'll open my checkbook and pay List + 20%. After all the years of questions and complaints over the LCDs of these backs, and then to have a company, in the year 2008, market their back with a stripped-in LCD image, well, I take it is a giant F.U. to all serious photographers. Completely insensitive.
I definitely look forward to getting this camera in my hands and running it through its paces.
I love the combined RAW/DNG/jpeg capture, full color live view, rotating back, interchangeable adapters for MF focal plane bodies, QuadCore image processing, Leaf shutter lenses, variety of viewfinder options and the new high-res 3" display.
This is what I've been looking for in a camera from convenient handling/ intuitive ergonomics, seamless capture and a more refined RAW or DNG + Jpeg workflow. This is going to make post processing so much easier.
I can't wait to test this baby under real world conditions, I can't help but have high hopes for this system
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gw,
There's a 45º prism, no mounting shoe though.
Then, there's a 90º finder with mounting shoe, but it's not "hot"
so maybe one has to use the low-profile Elinchrom Skyports
[attachment=9121:Skyport.png]
Billy
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I still wonder though, has anyone ever shot a real job with a PocketWizard sticking out the left side of that thing?
It's no different to the Rollei 6008 layout, and that has been working for years. Btw, I use an Elinchrom Skyport on the side of mine. It is so compact compared to the PW. I forget it's even there. Maybe I'll post an image later.
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I definitely look forward to getting this camera in my hands and running it through its paces.
David, agreed. This particular model seems very promising. When you run down the Feature List, it addresses a lot of issues. Time will tell. But as Reagan said, "Trust, yet verify".
I will check into the Elinchrom solution, but of course, I invested in all "R" model Profoto packs, that have the PocketWizard receiver built into the pack. I've got a big investment in PocketWizard already. Too big.
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I've been bothering the MACGroup rep for almost two years (since the Skyports were announced)
for a low-profile PocketWizard.
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It's no different to the Rollei 6008 layout, and that has been working for years.
"Working", and "ideal design", could be light years apart. That's what concerns me. Also, the 6008 body seems much larger, physically, and that could allow space for your hand to still have access. The new camera is much smaller, and thus, less room for your hand to fit in there.
I just want to hear a real working photographer say, "Yeah, I own the camera, and I've been shooting it for months now, with a PocketWizard attached, and I shoot it not on the tripod, and I've never broken off a PocketWizard, and there's plenty of room for the focusing hand".
As we all know, there's the way it looks in the ad, and then there's the way that it really works in the field.
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The Elinchrom Skyport looks very nice (smaller than PW) for the Hy6. Does their Skyport transmitter works fine with Profoto R product line ?
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I guess my point is that the PW is the problem. What a brick. Have you seen the Skyport I use? It's a fraction of the size, much lighter and works great with my Profoto gear. This is hardly a H6 problem.
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I guess my point is that the PW is the problem. What a brick. Have you seen the Skyport I use? It's a fraction of the size, much lighter and works great with my Profoto gear. This is hardly a H6 problem.
What about a 90 degree black plastic "elbow adaptor"? If they make it for plumbing, shirley they could make it for Hy6. You'd slide the adaptor into the shoe of the Hy6, and then, when the adaptor did its 90, then the PocketWizard would be pointing straight up.
Oops. Into your left eye.
Back to the drawing board.
I agree with BJNY; the PW simply needs to be smaller. Inside, it's probably one tiny circuit board, but the maker thought they needed to make it large enough to justify $350 price point...
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I still wonder though, has anyone ever shot a real job with a PocketWizard sticking out the left side of that thing? Can you left hand actually get in there and actually hold the camera and focus properly? Would the PocketWizard snap off of there by lunchtime?
I support my Rz on pocket wizard. It works great. It will get loose once or twice during the day but it provide excellent balanced support. It is much easier to hold the camera with it than without it.
Never tried the other solution.
Andre
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I don't understand what all the fuss is about. If the digital equipment makers don't want to read a thread then just skip it, like changing a channel. I really don't think it matters anyway, as no matter what any of us say, we will all speak with our wallets.
If a product is good, or even better, available and the price is right (or the price is known) then it should sell. If not it won't and that will be that.
These are good times for our studio, but we are well aware it's tough out there so we have to be on our game all the time. Same with any supplier we use.
We all work with a variety of people, clients and suppliers and all of us have to respond with positive answers that mean something today. I have clients that ask repetitive questions and it doesn't bother me in the least. I assume their busy, I assume they have a lot going on and most importantly I assume they want total assurance that me and my studio is going to deliver as promised.
Nothing wrong with that, in fact I like the clients that take a project seriously and demand the best we can give or (even better), more than we did before. It means they will probably bring something valuable to the project.
Is it frustrating, sometimes, but It's a tough world out there, for everyone.
If I wanted it easy I would have gone into banking, uh well . . . maybe not.
i think it matters a lot. because it destroys this forum or it makes it to an uncomfortable and useless place, which i dont like cause i like this mf exchange place, because most of the people here act polite, informative and aside that here are many great photographers to meet.
all this reminds me somehow to the horrible lolita bashing some months ago, which was even more useless than what start to happen here now,- but the things move in a very bad direction again i.m.o. herein LL .
if posters start to blame people as thierry sexually they shoud go whereever they want but better shut up and there is nothing to defend in such posts. but as well if over and over again is screamed out with 1000 words personal needs and as it would be the end of the world if they dont appear next week ( i dont speak about not working features- this is scandalous from the manufactors but here are discussed wish lists which have nothing to do with unfunctional products ),- and these critics or wishes are been repeated again and again although many of this points even have lost their actuality because solved now.
& thierry is right: many of this question or demands catalogs have been posted now by the same persons over and over again with the same words although they have been answered many times in direct response and detailed. i dont get the sense of this kind of postings nor of the offensive bashing which we hd two days ago. james,- in the meantime i do what you advise here: i skip these treads, but if the things cook up too much it may destroy or damage a forum likethis ( again ) . and I DONT like that because its a nice place to meet here and to exchange knowledge.
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I can see why you might think since I had the same concerns with my 6008 AF / phase p20 as the flash shoe is the same place. Hasn't been a problem at all in practice and I actually kind of like it there now. The metz flash module for the on camera flash has a 90 degree bend. That also seemed a bit weird, but works fine (though I don't use on camera flash very much). When I get around to upgrading to the Hy6 or AFi the location of the shoe will not be a concern. Sure the Hy6 is a bit smaller but I can see from testing it that there is plenty of room to work with. Where the pocket wizard is noticeable is when you go to set the camera down. Since the grip is on the right and the natural tendency is to want to lay the camera on its left side when you set it down, but that's where the wizard is so you just have to spend an extra second placing the camera down on its base.
I love the theory behind this camera.
I still wonder though, has anyone ever shot a real job with a PocketWizard sticking out the left side of that thing? Can you left hand actually get in there and actually hold the camera and focus properly? Would the PocketWizard snap off of there by lunchtime?
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I agree with BJNY; the PW simply needs to be smaller.
Inside, it's probably one tiny circuit board,
but the maker thought they needed to make it large enough to justify $350 price point...
Since the Leaf AFi and PocketWizard are distributed by the same folks,
I think they are well aware of the jutting out issue.
Another example of how smaller it could get:
http://www.white-lightning.com/cybersync.html (http://www.white-lightning.com/cybersync.html)
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James, there are many posts in here which are plain inaccurate and when people read them and take them to heart then rumours can start. Sometimes potentially damaging rumours.
This is very true.
When I first posted about the HTS, someone (can't remember who at the moment) posted that there was "no way it would focus at infinity" when this was patently untrue.
Very irritating.
Nick-T
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The Elinchrom Skyport looks very nice (smaller than PW) for the Hy6. Does their Skyport transmitter works fine with Profoto R product line ?
To give you an idea of the size of the Skyport:
(http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/img_8222.jpg)
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To give you an idea of the size of the Skyport:
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Dear All,
I am sorry for any confusion. I have attached the new SBI pricing on the listed items. This pricing replaces the 20% off digital promotion we announced last week.
Sincerely,
Greg
97-6855 Sinarback eMotion 54LV $10,995.00
97-6865 Sinarback eMotion 75LV $28,595.00
97-6870 Sinarback eVolution 75H $28,595.00
96-7106 Sinar Hy6/e54LV $20,795.00
96-7107 Sinar Hy6/e54LVr $22,195.00
96-7103 Sinar Hy6/e75LV $29,195.00
96-7104 Sinar Hy6/e75LVr $30,595.00
96-7108 Sinar Hy6/v75 $29,195.00
Dear All,
It appears there is an error in our Marketing Bulletin. I will check into it on Monday. Sorry for any confusion. I will post the correct pricing at that time.
Sincerely,
Greg King
Sinar Bron Imaging
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Dear All,
I am sorry for any confusion. I have attached the new SBI pricing on the listed items. This pricing replaces the 20% off digital promotion we announced last week.
Sincerely,
Greg
97-6855 Sinarback eMotion 54LV $10,995.00
97-6865 Sinarback eMotion 75LV $28,595.00
97-6870 Sinarback eVolution 75H $28,595.00
96-7106 Sinar Hy6/e54LV $20,795.00
96-7107 Sinar Hy6/e54LVr $22,195.00
96-7103 Sinar Hy6/e75LV $29,195.00
96-7104 Sinar Hy6/e75LVr $30,595.00
96-7108 Sinar Hy6/v75 $29,195.00
Mmmm, here are your earlier prices..
Below are the US catalog prices for the various Sinarback combinations. These prices reflect 20% off the standard US catalog price.
Sinar Hy6/e75LV $29,200.00
Sinar Hy6/e75LVr $30,400.00
Sinar Hy6/e54LV $24,160.00
Sinar Hy6/e54LVr $25,520.00
Sinar Hy6/v75 $32,200.00
Sinarback eMotion 54LV $14,156.00
Sinarback eMotion 75LV $26,000.00
Sinarback eVolution 75H $28,400.00
with the euro pricing of Sinarback eVolution 75 H (33 Mpx) at New price Euro 16'778 ($21600)
that implies a markup of 5400 euros or $7000. Might be time to make a trip to the EU
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Dear All,
I am sorry for any confusion. I have attached the new SBI pricing on the listed items. This pricing replaces the 20% off digital promotion we announced last week.
Sincerely,
Greg
97-6855 Sinarback eMotion 54LV $10,995.00
97-6865 Sinarback eMotion 75LV $28,595.00
97-6870 Sinarback eVolution 75H $28,595.00
96-7106 Sinar Hy6/e54LV $20,795.00
96-7107 Sinar Hy6/e54LVr $22,195.00
96-7103 Sinar Hy6/e75LV $29,195.00
96-7104 Sinar Hy6/e75LVr $30,595.00
96-7108 Sinar Hy6/v75 $29,195.00
From the earlier post, European pricing: "Sinar Hy6-e54r (with revolving adapter) New Price Euro 12'128.- (old price Euro 14'872.-)"
At 1.3:1 to the $, that's about $16k, vs. $22k noted above.
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From the earlier post, European pricing: "Sinar Hy6-e54r (with revolving adapter) New Price Euro 12'128.- (old price Euro 14'872.-)"
At 1.3:1 to the $, that's about $16k, vs. $22k noted above.
and about 23grand usd today for the hy6-e75r..wow..who knows, might be even less tomorrow the way the euro is going..
but maybe there are huge import duties or sbi bought a boatload before the world started self-correcting and are they are stuck
with the goods at a high price.
..maybe. or maybe they still plan on giving a 8grand tradein on your old back, that would get it down in the ballpark of the euro price..who knows for sure? and those who know, will they stick their neck out and say what the real deal is? I think another maybe.
I applaud sinar.ch for making the effort, I hope the financial situation we are in will allow folks like me to act on the new euro prices, as it stands with the US prices I doubt there will be much business gained.. Personally I am only interested in the 75 or 65 back from sinar but not at the US prices.
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I could be wrong but the basic calculation is not the euro but the Swiss franc (CFH).
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...when I asked my french dealer the price of the Hy6-65, he told me 19,800 CFH as the Sinar list price ! If this was about 12,000 euros at the announcement of the product, it is now 13,500 euros. The exchange rates must think in Swiss francs.
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...when I asked my french dealer the price of the Hy6-65, he told me 19,800 CFH as the Sinar list price ! If this was about 12,000 euros at the announcement of the product, it is now 13,500 euros. The exchange rates must think in Swiss francs.
sorry, but I thought theirry posted in Euros as the base price..
didn't know that the euros he posted were for that day only as converted from cfh!
maybe he could clear that up for us all as we watch the markets rise and fall.
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97-6855 Sinarback eMotion 54LV $10,995.00
97-6865 Sinarback eMotion 75LV $28,595.00
97-6870 Sinarback eVolution 75H $28,595.00
96-7106 Sinar Hy6/e54LV $20,795.00
96-7107 Sinar Hy6/e54LVr $22,195.00
96-7103 Sinar Hy6/e75LV $29,195.00
96-7104 Sinar Hy6/e75LVr $30,595.00
96-7108 Sinar Hy6/v75 $29,195.00
Why is the US price for the 65 back omitted here? Did I miss something?
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Paul,
Thierry gave a "Sinar suggested retail price" at 12073 euros.
(the distributor reflects, logically, the exchange rate).
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FWIW....
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Why is the US price for the 65 back omitted here? Did I miss something?
Yes, you did. That has already been asked and answered in this thread. There was a separate thread devoted to the price of the 65 which predates this thread.
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be careful... this is only what my dealer told me when I thought ordering. Thierry could clarify the matter.
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Graham you are an odd forum policeman. You sniff out every post that aids you in posting the same comment over and over.
??
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I don't find it annoying that people ask duplicate questions
I do. It's quite antisocial and bad 'netiquette' to dump questions on a forum without bothering to see if the answer is already there.
See http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting)
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i dont think anyone associated with Sinar should be suggesting a potential customer does a search about Sinar pricing - that could be one customer lost real quick when they see all the confusions
why not just list the pricing all in one go - and save all the ridiculous negative comments about someone doing a search or looking back at another page
i had the same problem with Leaf when i tried to get pricing - a sort of drip feed with the minimum information that could be provided for each query, hard to believe these companies are making a profit - and things are going to get way way harder - all the best to them!
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I do. It's quite antisocial and bad 'netiquette' to dump questions on a forum without bothering to see if the answer is already there.
See http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting)
so fotoz,
should we do this forum your way. only post about photography that is shot with a medium format back and if so will you please provide a list what qualifies for medium format.
don't worry about listing your preferred brands, I think by now we all know that direction.
should we never post a question that someone has answered before and how do we qualify those answers. if someone asks a rep or dealer 6 questions about an HY6 and they respond to one question does that mean all 5 are off the topic list.
maybe it would just be easier if you policed this entire section. we could send you every post prior to posting for approval.
as Michael has stated, the medium format section is as close as it comes to having a professional's only area of the forum and as you may know most professionals are busy and don't have the time, or inclination to do a detailed search on every topic prior to positing.
even if they did, what is really wrong about asking when the new Sinar 65 is coming out and will the prices hold up in the marketplace or will they be lowered or raised. in fact, what is wrong with asking any maker, rep or dealer a question about their equipment. isn't that why they are on this forum in the first place and if they don't want to answer, just post a previous link or maybe take a hint from Yair and just rise above it and stick to the positive message.
for example. Theirry has been saying to the best of his knowledge the Sinar 65 will be at Photoplus in NY ready and working, though the reports I've heard said it is still in the process of working out the bugs. I doubt if Theirry is spreading misleading information but we all know in the land of medium format, deadlines are frequently missed.
is it ok to post that above statement, or is this also going to go on the banned list of topics because it is not exactly Sinar or medium format positive.
I find it interesting and quite brave that Michael dared compare a Canon G10 to a p45+ digital back. I think every point he made was honest and made it very clear that there is more to taking a photograph than a camera format, megapixels or price.
I am sure the results opened a lot of people eyes, but under your "watchful" eye, if Michael has posted that information on this section, you would have found it out of bounds.
I really don't understand this brand/format loyalty thing that goes on in this section of the forum. it's obvious that dealers, reps and makers have a vested interest but there are so many brand groupies flowing through here I wonder what their motivation is. I know some have relationships with the makers, some with dealers, some give seminars and though I find nothing wrong with that as long as it is upfront, I do find it interesting that Michael is probably the world's best at the seminar/workshop business model and he seems to have no issue mentioning, testing and reporting on any brand, any format. I think that is what makes his writings interesting and what he has to say valid.
A camera format, especially a little cropped 645 is not a religion, in fact in the various formats of cameras made through history it's barely even medium format.
have a nice day.
bc
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so fotoz,
should we do this forum your way.
No need to do it my way. Just follow common principles of consideration to others and etiquette. Is that too much for you to handle?
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I find it interesting and quite brave that Michael dared compare a Canon G10 to a p45+ digital back. I think every point he made was honest and made it very clear that there is more to taking a photograph than a camera format, megapixels or price.
bc
yes i like what michael is writing about the g10.
but we shouldnt forget that there have been in film days also great p+s cameras out.
some were 100% sharp and as good as the film you have used in it ... and as good as the photographer who used it.
yashika, rollei, leica many have been very good and theoretically you could make your livng with them, but hasselblads and 4x5"s still had their place.
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Yes, you did. That has already been asked and answered in this thread. There was a separate thread devoted to the price of the 65 which predates this thread.
Graham,
The reason I asked it again is that I was under the impression that the prices could have changed slightly in recent days. And that Sinar Bron guy specifically came on here and posted a list of damn near every Sinar combo, yet, he omitted the 65.
It seems reasonable, with all this talk of price reductions, posted by Thierry, that something might have changed in the last few days, especially since Thierry posted that they would post a new USA list in time for Photo East.
What I asked does not seem unreasonable to me at all. The price could have changed slightly.
I'll leave it at that.
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What I asked does not seem unreasonable to me at all. The price could have changed slightly.
The 65's price was the first 'reduced' price model, the rest just followed a few weeks later. Iirc, the price was advertised as running until the end of the year. I hope that helps.
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Can we summarize?
Price drop in Europe = Very good, worth going there to get one (hell the street price might be even better)
Price drop in USA = Negligible
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Graham,
The reason I asked it again is that I was under the impression that the prices could have changed slightly in recent days. And that Sinar Bron guy specifically came on here and posted a list of damn near every Sinar combo, yet, he omitted the 65.
It seems reasonable, with all this talk of price reductions, posted by Thierry, that something might have changed in the last few days, especially since Thierry posted that they would post a new USA list in time for Photo East.
What I asked does not seem unreasonable to me at all. The price could have changed slightly.
I'll leave it at that.
Quite frankly gwhitf I don't think you were being unreasonable at all in asking your original question. I'm just as damned confused about the prices too. I don't have the time to read every post as some guys obviously do, I'm out shooting photos as much as I can. The prices seem to be changing daily, it makes you a bit nervous about buying into any one system to be honest.
Pete
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Dear All,
Here is the file with the 65 and s65r added. I did not post them on the list originally because they were posted before and the pricing was correct. Also, we do not pay Sinar in Euros, but in CHF and our catalog price is approximately 15% to 20% higher than Sinar's PM because we use a dealer network in the USA. I hope this answer your questions.
Sincerely,
Greg King
Sinar Bron Imaging
gking@sinarbron.com
Catalog # Description Catalog
96-7101 Sinar Hy6/65 $19,995.00
96-7102 Sinar Hy6s65r $25,500.00
97-6855 Sinarback eMotion 54LV $10,995.00
97-6865 Sinarback eMotion 75LV $28,595.00
97-6870 Sinarback eVolution 75H $28,595.00
96-7106 Sinar Hy6/e54LV $20,795.00
96-7107 Sinar Hy6/e54LVr $22,195.00
96-7103 Sinar Hy6/e75LV $29,195.00
96-7104 Sinar Hy6/e75LVr $30,595.00
96-7108 Sinar Hy6/v75 $29,195.00
Why is the US price for the 65 back omitted here? Did I miss something?
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i think all this "list" prices are one thing. another thing is to ask the dealers or contributors by phone. you can buy sinars as far i know from every calumet shop in us too, and they will make prices which are quiet different than the list prices, as are doing other dealers for all this mf brands too. so its just an idea what can give this prices, they are not fixed as i see it. everybody will make his own package and give you his own offer.
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Alright, my apologies for my late answer to some questions. I had a long flight and needed today some rest.
To make it clear: Sinar Switzerland has not changed any of the prices I have published here previously, despite any forex changes those last weeks. Otherwise I would have informed about.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Regarding that concern about the PocketWizard sticking out the side of the RZ and the Hy6, here is another option:
http://microsyncdigital.com/home.cfm (http://microsyncdigital.com/home.cfm)
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Regarding that concern about the PocketWizard sticking out the side of the RZ and the Hy6, here is another option:
http://microsyncdigital.com/home.cfm (http://microsyncdigital.com/home.cfm)
It's too slow. Max sync speed, leaf shutter: 1/350 sec
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Hello,
I've had two sets of the Micro sync radio triggers and receivers and all I can say is they look good but a absolutely useless.
They can chew thru a set of Eveready Lithium's batteries in about 10 days and have a range of about 1 metre.
Fortunately Tamrac reimburse me for the full amount of money.
Now I use the Eleinchrom system which are small and have a fantastic range.
Also its about time that Leaf bring out there price reduction?
Regards
Simon
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Okay, if the Elinchrom Skyports are "it",
then someone please post a pic of a transmitter rigged onto a meter
(even though meters are use less & less).
Thank you,
Billy
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Billy you would have to use a small mini plug to PC cord to plug into the Universal skyport transmitter and meter. The Universal Skyport does come with various cords for different flash systems, Phono plug , Mini Plug, PC Cord and the Elinchrom cord. I use the RX model for my Rangers and the Universal for my Elinchrom monolights. But i can use the same transmitter they only difference is the receiver side. RX is for the RX Elinchrom system. The easist way to go with meter is just have a trigger in one hand to pop the flash and put your meter on non cord , or you can attach the PC cord. I like the skyports better than anything I have used so far.
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Billy,
Good point. I forgot about the meter part too. I have that Sekonic meter with the Profoto circuit board installed. Press the button on the meter, and the Profoto pack fires automatically.
Does anyone know if Elinchrom has a module for the Sekonic meter?
Really, more than anything, PocketWizard must be held hostage until they reduce the size of the transmitter case.
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I don't think there is anything for the meters and Elinchrom at least i have yet to see anything. That Sekonic and Profoto did work nice when I had the Profoto system. The nice thing obviously is the size of the skyports. I had the Micro syncs also at one time and there just okay , very small but with limitations and i sheared a few transmitters off the hot shoe mount.
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There is a mini-jack (3.5mm) sync-out port on the side of the Elinchrom receiver that you could use with your meter. I think that will work but I have never tried it. I prefer to use the sync cable that I always have with me as a spare.
I store my Elinchrom receivers and transmitters in those neoprene bags that are meant for Sandisk CF cards, just to give another sense of size (they currently ship in a nice box BTW).
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Billy,
Good point. I forgot about the meter part too. I have that Sekonic meter with the Profoto circuit board installed. Press the button on the meter, and the Profoto pack fires automatically.
Does anyone know if Elinchrom has a module for the Sekonic meter?
Really, more than anything, PocketWizard must be held hostage until they reduce the size of the transmitter case.
Don't know anything about Elinchrom but if your working everywhere, pocket wizards are the standard. Bust the tail off of one and you can rent and buy anywhere.
Also when working in larger rental studios with multiple stages, using pocket wizards, stage 1 is channel 1, stage 2 is channel 2, etc.
Don't know if the elinchrom's have the same frequency, but if not all hell will break loose and you don't want people banging on the door asking why your firing their packs.
The sticking out the side of the Rollei doesn't look like that much of a problem, but If I was going to go to Elinchrom's unless I knew the frequencies, I'd sure have PW's on hand.
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Sure the PW is the current standard making it easy to find replacements or rentals.
Elinchrom uses 8 frequency channels and 4 different groups can be assigned. The communication between transmitter and receivers is synced and encrypted so it is very unlikely it will fire other equipment especially when it is a different brand. What specific frequency is used I can't tell (Haven't looked might be a better word).
I haven't tested yet how it works with more than one unit at work in 1 place myself. (have seen it demo'ed by others but I agree this is not the same as an actual working situation).
I really like the skyport together with my RX monoblocks. I was pleasantly surprised to hear they apparently also work very well with Profoto (which I am thinking about switching to).
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I really like the skyport together with my RX monoblocks. I was pleasantly surprised to hear they apparently also work very well with Profoto (which I am thinking about switching to).
Sure, I'd expect the universal set to work with any brand using the appropriate cable,
but are you saying an Elinchrom transmitter will trigger a PocketWizard receiver, and vice-versa?
Thanks,
Billy
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I don't know. I just saw someone mention earlier the Elinchrom works with Profoto. Indeed the way it does so is not trivial and the next thing I would like to know, Graham?
It would be great when an Elinchrom transmitter could fire a PW receiver. Somehow I doubt it does even though it is possible in theory.
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I don't know. I just saw someone mention earlier the Elinchrom works with Profoto. Indeed the way it does so is not trivial and the next thing I would like to know, Graham?
The 'universal' version of Skyport should trigger just about anything.
(http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/largeimages/505381.jpg)
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I don't know. I just saw someone mention earlier the Elinchrom works with Profoto. Indeed the way it does so is not trivial and the next thing I would like to know, Graham?
It would be great when an Elinchrom transmitter could fire a PW receiver. Somehow I doubt it does even though it is possible in theory.
It could be possible though because the Profoto's do learn the signal being sent to it. Wish I could try it but I am all Elinchrom lighting
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That might be right but I really like the way the receivers plug into my Elinchrom strobes. I guess they just hang loose on others or do I tie-wrap them until they are fixed? In that case I probably will go for PW since it is nicely integrated in some Profoto packs.
Same here, all Elinchrom and thinking about going at least partially towards Profoto.
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I should add I know the Acutes learn the signal, i would suspect the D4 does also. I use velcro on my monolights since I don't have RX mono's and have to use the universal on those but I have the RX setup on my Rangers. So i have both setups but they work together. The RX setup plugs directly into the sync port via a adapter for my Ranger but the Universal uses cords so I have male velcro on those receivers and the mono's have the female side to it. It works but not as elegant as the RX which plugs directly in.
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The 'universal' version of Skyport should trigger just about anything.
(http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/largeimages/505381.jpg)
how long do the batteries last?
they seem a bit cheaper than the PW as well.
paul
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In the Universal you have chargers for the receivers and a button battery for the transmitter. I am shooting for three days straight this week so I will find out , really just converted over to Elinchrom stuff this past couple weeks . So It gets a full workout this week. See how it all goes
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I use it for about 9 months now and have not changed a single battery yet. I have used it on over 75 assignments varying from the whole day of shooting to just an hour or so. I only use it with RX mono's. I have no generators or batteries yet which is why I am thinking about getting Profoto.
I have the RX version which doesn't have a sync out BTW! the receivers also don't have any batteries which is why I seem not to worry (I had to go up to check ).
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Another vote for the Skyports (RX set-up). I've used them for well over a year now and have not had to replace the battery on the transmitter yet. They are used every week and probably have around 10,000 clicks. The receivers just plug into the back of the RX unit monolight, so it's very clean with no added wires.
The only downside is that you may not be able to reach the maximum sync-speed. With the 1Ds2 and 1Ds3 I shoot at 1/160th because some shading occurs along the lower 1/2 of the frame at 1/200 and is very noticeable at 1/250th. After talking about this with MAC group, they passed along this document from Elinchrom - Skyport Sync Document (http://www.pebbleplacephotography.com/Other_Stuff/ELSkyport_Syncspeed_E.doc). A fellow friend / photographer has the microsyncs and those have similar limitations.
The Mamiya 645AFDII is not listed on that page; in my experience it had to be set at 1/90th. I do not know if Pocket Wizards have similar set-up delay or not. The Word .doc is from July 2007, so it's possible Elinchrom has made improvements between now and then.
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After talking about this with MAC group, they passed along this document from Elinchrom - Skyport Sync Document (http://www.pebbleplacephotography.com/Other_Stuff/ELSkyport_Syncspeed_E.doc). A fellow friend / photographer has the microsyncs and those have similar limitations.
The Mamiya 645AFDII is not listed on that page; in my experience it had to be set at 1/90th. I do not know if Pocket Wizards have similar set-up delay or not. The Word .doc is from July 2007, so it's possible Elinchrom has made improvements between now and then.
Elinchrom is distributed by BogenImaging, whereas PocketWizard is distributed by MAC group.
I set the Mamiya 645 to 1/90th as well, even with PocketWizards or sync cables. I attribute the "shading' to shutter bounce.
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Sorry, yes Bogen. It's not shutter bounce. If it were bounce the same result would be evident when using cables (or a Canon Speedlight) instead of a wireless interface. The Skyports use a digital protocol to ensure that adjacent frequencies & other traffic on same frequency (such as wireless home phones, etc) do not induce a false trigger. The transmitter sends a signal to open the channel with the receiver, then the message is sent. The delay is imperceptible to us, but a couple micro-seconds is just enough to catch the curtain as it closes. I tried the second curtain option, but saw no improvement on either the 1Ds2 (tried two 1Ds2's and a 5D; 5D has an even slower X-sync) or AFDII. I haven't tried 1/200th or 1/250th on the 1Ds3.
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All very interesting you guys - but the integrity of the original thread is now totally lost.
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Another vote for the Skyports (RX set-up). I've used them for well over a year now and have not had to replace the battery on the transmitter yet. They are used every week and probably have around 10,000 clicks. The receivers just plug into the back of the RX unit monolight, so it's very clean with no added wires.
The only downside is that you may not be able to reach the maximum sync-speed. With the 1Ds2 and 1Ds3 I shoot at 1/160th because some shading occurs along the lower 1/2 of the frame at 1/200 and is very noticeable at 1/250th. After talking about this with MAC group, they passed along this document from Elinchrom - Skyport Sync Document (http://www.pebbleplacephotography.com/Other_Stuff/ELSkyport_Syncspeed_E.doc). A fellow friend / photographer has the microsyncs and those have similar limitations.
The Mamiya 645AFDII is not listed on that page; in my experience it had to be set at 1/90th. I do not know if Pocket Wizards have similar set-up delay or not. The Word .doc is from July 2007, so it's possible Elinchrom has made improvements between now and then.
I use Skyport on Rz at 1/400 with both Micro and Ranger Rx packs without any problems. The listed sych speed is 1/1000.
Andre
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I asked for a price quote/list for the Sinar backs and equipment today for a friend of mine that is interested in going MF. I got presented prices that were much higher. Anything from 10% up to about 30% higher. These things are typically the reasons why people don't trust MF dealers anymore .
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Elinchrom is distributed by BogenImaging, whereas PocketWizard is distributed by MAC group.
I set the Mamiya 645 to 1/90th as well, even with PocketWizards or sync cables. I attribute the "shading' to shutter bounce.
Billy being announced today or tomorrow 1.3 that solves some flash sync issues. Today i have to switch to rear shutter from 1/8 th of a second or longer or it will not sync with camera this has been fixed( Skyport or Poket Wizard it is a camera issue). We should know this very soon when the first folks get to upgrade to it or a data sheet comes out on what has been updated. I can't send mine in for over a week because of shooting jobs, it has to be sent to NY for the firmware update on a very short turn on the return. Some of the shading may well be fixed also with this update. There also some other good updates as well and will wait until it is publicly announced. I know wrong thread for this but you asked
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Yes, I can comment.
The recently dropped prices are recommended prices to our distributors and those used in Switzerland or when one buys from Sinar factory.
There are many different countries, with different distribution organizations, some with dealers, like in the USA, some without dealers. Some of our distributors can and do work with our recommended prices, some are not, because their distribution structure and local specificities do not allow them. It is obvious, that countries with a dealer network have to work with higher margins.
to this, there are several other costs for a distributor to consider when importing goods:
- foreign exchange
- tax, import, custom duties
- storage, customs clearance, handling and delivery by custom agent
- quarantine charges
- freight costs
Those costs represent the so-called "landed costs", and can represent in some countries a non-neglectful amount. As an example and because I know these 2 countries well, the landed costs represent over 20% in Australia, and over 27% in China.
I can however not speak about these costs for the USA, other than there is a dealer network needing to have their own margin to survive.
Best regards,
Thierry
I noticed this too. It looks like some dealers/importers decided to keep the lower prices to themselves to increase their own profit. They must think there is no such thing as the internet where information travels with light speed. Thierry, would you like to comment on this specific case? Aren't importers bound to at least mention MSRP's from the factory? The price cuts you recently announced are not reflected in any of the prices that I could find lately. I don't think that was Sinar's goal when they tried to price more competitive.
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You're welcome.
That's what we did and continuously do.
Thierry
(or better: maybe they could tell their distributors to fairly distribute price reductions as well)?
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FWIW, a Sinar dealer in Great Britain is very closely aligned to the Sinar prices FOB Switzerland. Good for them. Maybe they'll get more business that way.
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Is there a reason why a person from say California can't order direct from the Factory?
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Dear Eric,
Everybody is allowed to buy from factory, but goods have to be picked up at the Sinar factory and paid upon delivery. Sinar cannot ship out of Switzerland directly to customers.
Best regards,
Thierry
Is there a reason why a person from say California can't order direct from the Factory?
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On Sinar's site, it says that SinarBron is a subsidiary of Sinar AG, not an independent distributor...
Kumar
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It is a Sinar, Broncolor and Foba subsidary!
Thierry
On Sinar's site, it says that SinarBron is a subsidiary of Sinar AG, not an independent distributor...
Kumar
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Dear Eric,
Everybody is allowed to buy from factory, but goods have to be picked up at the Sinar factory and paid upon delivery. Sinar cannot ship out of Switzerland directly to customers.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
Why isn't Sinar able to ship out of Switzerland directly to customers? I am sure nobody would mind paying for insured shipping charges and local taxes, which are not there in the EU BTW (expect around 140 euros for insured shipping up the 16K euros). For most of us it is even more interesting to buy somewhere else in the EU because we don't have to pay the VAT so buying elsewhere in the EU doesn't have an impact on cashflow.
Prices over here should not be higher than the prices mentioned by you (Sinar) as retail prices. Apparently it costs the dealer a lot more to import your gear from Switzerland than it would cost me.
This type of behaviour really pisses me of and is one of the main reasons I wish to do only business with companies that have no objection to deal directly with their customer if the customer so wishes.
So, if you live over here you can only buy Sinar equipment from a dealer that is holding back on a price cut and ripping of its clients or you have to drive to Switzerland yourself because Sinar has decided to protect these type of dealers? Am I understanding this correctly?
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Dear Dustback,
As said, ANYBODY can buy from Sinar factory, but the goods have to be picked up and paid upon delivery. And I repeat it, we are not allowed, due to exclusive distribution contracts, to ship outside of the Swiss territory. There is nothing really to be pissed off and no special bad behaviour of doing so. If you know somebody in Switzerland, it can also be done this way.
Edited for ADDENDUM: and I should add, that if you (we) get the authorization from the local distributor for us to ship you goods from our factory, then we are pleased to do it.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
Why isn't Sinar able to ship out of Switzerland directly to customers? I am sure nobody would mind paying for insured shipping charges and local taxes, which are not there in the EU BTW (expect around 140 euros for insured shipping up the 16K euros). For most of us it is even more interesting to buy somewhere else in the EU because we don't have to pay the VAT so buying elsewhere in the EU doesn't have an impact on cashflow.
Prices over here should not be higher than the prices mentioned by you as retail prices. Apparently it costs the dealer a lot more to import your gear from Switzerland than it would cost me.
This type of behaviour really pisses me of and is one of the main reasons I wish to do only business with companies that have no objection to deal directly with their customer if the customer so wishes.
So, if you live over here you can only buy Sinar equipment from a dealer that is holding back on a price cut and ripping of its clients or you have to drive to Switzerland yourself because Sinar has decided to protect these type of dealers? Am I understanding this correctly?
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Thierry,
Why isn't Sinar able to ship out of Switzerland directly to customers? I am sure nobody would mind paying for insured shipping charges and local taxes, which are not there in the EU BW.
Prices over here should not be higher than the prices mentioned by you as retail prices. Apparently it costs the dealer a lot more to important your gear from Switzerland than it would cost me.
This type of behaviour really pisses me of and is one of the main reasons I wish to do only business with companies that have no objection to deal directly with their customer if the customer so wishes.
I guess that's to help the distributors protect their territory. I'm baffled by the pricing here in Japan. One dealer lists the 54LV at 1,898,000 yen (15,116 Euro or 19,434 USD)!!! And that's the special "Final Campaign" price! Import duties aren't particularly high, and the consumption tax is only 5%. This means that either there's a hell of money in the business, or there's enormous room for bargaining. And I'm assuming when SinarAG says the "recommended price" is 6,000 Euro, it takes the distributor's margin into account. Also, if SinarBron is a subsidiary, pricing should have been better in the US, no? I like Canon's pricing policy. The 5DMkII is slated to sell for 268,000 yen ~ USD 2740, about the same as US pricing. No secret handshake required!
Cheers,
Kumar
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Dear Dustback,
As said, ANYBODY can buy from Sinar factory, but the goods have to be picked up and paid upon delivery. And I repeat it, we are not allowed, due to exclusive distribution contracts, to ship outside of the Swiss territory. There is nothing really to be pissed off and no special bad behaviour of doing so. If you know somebody in Switzerland, it can also be done this way.
Best regards,
Thierry
In that case, would support/repair issues be handled by Switzerland, or say you, as representative for Asia? Similarly, US customers could go to SinarBron? Or would we still have to go through the distributor, who's naturally pissed off at losing the margin?
Cheers,
Kumar
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They are obliged, by contract, to handle warranty and servicing issues.
Thierry
In that case, would support/repair issues be handled by Switzerland, or say you, as representative for Asia? Similarly, US customers could go to SinarBron? Or would we still have to go through the distributor, who's naturally pissed off at losing the margin?
Cheers,
Kumar
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They are obliged, by contract, to handle warranty and servicing issues.
Thierry
Well, that sounds good. So I could buy a back from Switzerland, and the distributor here is obliged to deal with warranty and service issues. Perhaps most Sinar users here get their stuff this way! I can't see them paying these insane prices when they could buy TWO backs AND have a nice vacation in Switzerland for the same amount of money.
Cheers,
Kumar
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They are obliged, by contract, to handle warranty and servicing issues.
Thierry
That is ridiculous! If I buy from the factory directly I should go to the factory again for warranty & service. I would not trust a dealer to handle my stuff properly when he is not allowed to make money of it. So I cannot contact the factory, the party I bought the back from in the first place, talk over the issue, get a RMA number if needed and ship the item to the factory??
From the way it is described this arrangement appears to be in conflict with EU laws about free traffic of labour and goods as well as regulation about unfair competition. Especially when other dealers in the EU are not allowed to sell to citizens of other EU countries.
Anyway. When stepping over these kind of things the way this is described and what is happening with the pricing of Sinar products it does not instill any trust in me. Which I think is a damn shame since I do believe the Sinar products are of high quality.
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Switzerland isn't an EU member, so those rules would not apply. On second thoughts, the distributor could screw you. Might not take that vacation in the Alps then!
If any one on this forum has bought direct from Sinar AG, I'm sure all of us would like to hear about their experience with the distributor, if any.
Cheers,
Kumar
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That is ridiculous! If I buy from the factory directly I should go to the factory again for warranty & service. I would not trust a dealer to handle my stuff properly when he is not allowed to make money of it.
What is the problem? Many thousands of large companies have international warranties allowing you to buy at one place and get the product serviced at another. The service provider often gets paid by the manufacturer for each warranty repair they handle, but that is individual to each contract.
This arrangement allows you to go to the nearest dealer wherever you are in the world, to get your back serviced. Very useful if you are on assignment in Italy, for example!
Thierry is here to answer questions and provide information about Sinar's PRODUCTS. He can't answer to every one of Sinar's management decisions.
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What is the problem? Many thousands of large companies have international warranties allowing you to buy at one place and get the product serviced at another. The service provider often gets paid by the manufacturer for each warranty repair they handle, but that is individual to each contract.
This arrangement allows you to go to the nearest dealer wherever you are in the world, to get your back serviced. Very useful if you are on assignment in Italy, for example!
Thierry is here to answer questions and provide information about Sinar's PRODUCTS. He can't answer to every one of Sinar's management decisions.
Thanks for clarifying that, Graham. So it's an international warranty, not country-specific. That wasn't very clear from Thierry's reply.
Cheers,
Kumar
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Thanks for clarifying that, Graham. So it's an international warranty, not country-specific. That wasn't very clear from Thierry's reply.
Cheers,
Kumar
As far as I know. Perhaps Thierry can confirm. (And even if it wasn't it is very common practice to be able to take an item to the nearest service representative rather than place of purchase. Look at Apple, for example.)
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Switzerland isn't an EU member, so those rules would not apply. On second thoughts, the distributor could screw you. Might not take that vacation in the Alps then!
Cheers,
Kumar
You are correct. France & Belgium are, their dealers should not refuse to sell to or not communicate to me with the reason they are prohibited by contractual obligations. Which they did when I asked a price quote last year when I was in the market for a new multishot back.
Again. Lets not take this into consideration and just look at what really is happening. I see a manufacturer posting a great discounted offer. Dealers in several different locations apparently ignore this and add some substantial apparently random numbers.
Who can explain me why I can get a Sinar 75 for appr. 17K in Switzerland but have to pay appr. 22K if I buy it locally? What am I paying 5K extra for?
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Who can explain me why I can get a Sinar 75 for appr. 17K in Switzerland but have to pay appr. 22K if I buy it locally? What am I paying 5K extra for?
Again, I don't understand your complaint. Every product I can think of is a different price in different countries, or even between different shops in the same country. Estonian prices on consumer goods are often 50-100% more than in the US, for example. People here literally do fly to the US to go shopping and save. This is nothing new.
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What is the problem? Many thousands of large companies have international warranties allowing you to buy at one place and get the product serviced at another. The service provider often gets paid by the manufacturer for each warranty repair they handle, but that is individual to each contract.
This arrangement allows you to go to the nearest dealer wherever you are in the world, to get your back serviced. Very useful if you are on assignment in Italy, for example!
Thierry is here to answer questions and provide information about Sinar's PRODUCTS. He can't answer to every one of Sinar's management decisions.
Very well, in that case there is already some part reserved for that arrangement in the prices Thierry mentioned. Makes me even wonder more what I am paying extra for over here?
I totally agree that International warranty is the way to go but in that case there should also be a possibility to harmonize pricing Internationally which doesn't mean it gets the same every place but you weed out differences that should not be there.
Sure, Thierry cannot speak about every management decision of Sinar but I expect him to be able to say for himself what he can or cannot speak about. He is here as a company representative so if I have a question regarding anything Sinar I will ask him first. Unless the Sinar CEO comes online I might ask him first
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Again, I don't understand your complaint. Every product I can think of is a different price in different countries, or even between different shop sin the same country. Estonian prices on consumer goods are often 50-100% more than in the US, for example. Please here literally do fly to the US to go shopping and save. This is nothing new.
What do you mean you don't understand? I know exactly what I will be paying when I import from Switzerland when I play it by all applying rules and it is by no means 5K in euros. So unless you know what that amount exactly is don't come with some vague examples.
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I have the experience of buying directly from Sinar in Switzerland. For me it is sometimes easier to fly to Zurich and take a train to the factory than wait for the delivery and custom clearance here in Russia. I do not see any difference in announced prices from Thierry and the Russian Prices if we apply the customs duty to the price. I do not have any problems with my Russian dealer (SBF-Moscow) because I cannot afford to travel to Switzerland too often and all the small items I prefer to buy locally. A trip to the factory for servicing my equipment worth every rouble I pay for the air fare, I have access to the knowledge and free advice. People at the factory are always very helpful and friendly.
It is a known here that the Russian dealer's mark up is in the area of 20 % or a bit less.
Yevgeny
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With all due respect, Dustback, it seems that you misunderstood my reply: the distributors are obliged to handle warranty and servicing issues, and they usually do it well. No need to get upset.
Now if you want, you can also come to the factory and deal directly, but my guess is that it would not make things faster nor better.
The world has changed and many photographers are traveling a lot to get their jobs done, to other countries and continents: I believe that everybody can/should be happy to know that he can contact the local Sinar distributor and get help there. In this case, the "affected" distributor did not make the deal either.
You seem to misunderstand again about EU. I don't know the EU commerce laws, nor do I know about free traffic of labour and goods, but Switzerland is not part of the EU, not yet at least, and as such things might be a little different than you think it to be. Anyway, I say it again: any distributor has the right to sell to a customer coming to visit him, any customer has the right to come to the Sinar factory and buy from there, BUT we Sinar are not allowed to ship in another country. There are no arrangements or whatsoever, like you imply it, nor is there any unfair competition. This might (I say might) change in the future, but this is how it is currently. Period.
Also, nobody can stop you from the existing Sinar online shops, like from our German distributor.
Best regards,
Thierry
That is ridiculous! If I buy from the factory directly I should go to the factory again for warranty & service. I would not trust a dealer to handle my stuff properly when he is not allowed to make money of it. So I cannot contact the factory, the party I bought the back from in the first place, talk over the issue, get a RMA number if needed and ship the item to the factory??
From the way it is described this arrangement appears to be in conflict with EU laws about free traffic of labour and goods as well as regulation about unfair competition. Especially when other dealers in the EU are not allowed to sell to citizens of other EU countries.
Anyway. When stepping over these kind of things the way this is described and what is happening with the pricing of Sinar products it does not instill any trust in me. Which I think is a damn shame since I do believe the Sinar products are of high quality.
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Dear Kumar,
when I say "the distributors are obliged to handle warranty and servicing issues", then it means exactly this. Sorry for not having put the word "international", but it seemed clear to me.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thanks for clarifying that, Graham. So it's an international warranty, not country-specific. That wasn't very clear from Thierry's reply.
Cheers,
Kumar
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Thanks Graham, that's right. And I invite everybody having improvement suggestions to this particular issue to send them directly to Sinar: they will be forwarded to the management, and if there are enough showing that a wrong model is being used, then I guess it will changed. Up to now it has proven to work this way quite well.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry is here to answer questions and provide information about Sinar's PRODUCTS. He can't answer to every one of Sinar's management decisions.
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Again Dustback,
We cannot dictate and local specificities make it that such differences can be justified and logical, not everywhere, granted. In the case you have the feeling that a substantial and not justified premium is added, then you should make use of these EU laws, or use the opportunity to buy from the factory, or buy via online shops like implemented in Germany.
This will give the right pressure to those distributors.
Best regards,
Thierry
Again. Lets not take this into consideration and just look at what really is happening. I see a manufacturer posting a great discounted offer. Dealers in several different locations apparently ignore this and add some substantial apparently random numbers.
Who can explain me why I can get a Sinar 75 for appr. 17K in Switzerland but have to pay appr. 22K if I buy it locally? What am I paying 5K extra for?
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With all due respect, Dustback, it seems that you misunderstood my reply: the distributors are obliged to handle warranty and servicing issues, and they usually do it well. No need to get upset.
Now if you want, you can also come to the factory and deal directly, but my guess is that it would not make things faster nor better.
The world has changed and many photographers are traveling a lot to get their jobs done, to other countries and continents: I believe that everybody can/should be happy to know that he can contact the local Sinar distributor and get help there. In this case, the "affected" distributor did not make the deal either.
You seem to misunderstand again about EU. I don't know the EU commerce laws, nor do I know about free traffic of labour and goods, but Switzerland is not part of the EU, not yet at least, and as such things might be a little different than you think it to be. Anyway, I say it again: any distributor has the right to sell to a customer coming to visit him, any customer has the right to come to the Sinar factory and buy from there, BUT we Sinar are not allowed to ship in another country. There are no arrangements or whatsoever, like you imply it, nor is there any unfair competition. This might (I say might) change in the future, but this is how it is currently. Period.
Also, nobody can stop you from the existing Sinar online shops, like from our German distributor.
Best regards,
Thierry
See my previous email where I agree that Swiss indeed is no part of the EU. I don't know where you get the 'again' from maybe you can explain to me where I made a previous mistake about the EU?. I agree with you that any distributor has the right to sell to me if I ask for it. Somehow not all the distributors seem to feel that way judging by the email I received last year from your French distributor denying to give me a price quote.
Sorry... it this offends you but my experiences with 'exploring how & where to buy Sinar' have not been a great joy. This latest thing with greatly varying prices does not give me a good feeling.
I find it peculiar that when people are making remarks of these things, the reaction most of the time is that we see things wrong etc..
Sorry... to me it seems strange these kind of unexplainable price differences. Sofar this question remains unanswered.
I have made complains in the past with the EU. Today I vote with my wallet.
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Dear Dustback,
may I kindly ask you to stop implying that there is/are arrangement(s)? You have no right to do so and have no idea of how things work.
To answer your question again: what you are paying more in some cases are import taxes and duties, freight costs, customs storage & handling, clearance taxes, forex buffers, etc ...
In China, if the distributor does not use the "grey import" channel, and does it according to local laws, like the Sinar distributor, you pay at least 27% on the imported goods value, due all to import taxes and duties, in India it is even worse (70% currently, a few years back it was 540%), in other countries you don't have any taxes applied.
I do not wish to enter in any debate about what I can say or not say: this is out of context and kind of threatening or implying that I am hiding things. You can always contact Sinar's CEO directly, it is not forbidden. It might take some time to get an answer, but you will get it, being it through me or himself, but certainly not online.
Best regards,
Thierry
Very well, in that case there is already some part reserved for that arrangement in the prices Thierry mentioned. Makes me even wonder more what I am paying extra for over here?
I totally agree that International warranty is the way to go but in that case there should also be a possibility to harmonize pricing Internationally which doesn't mean it gets the same every place but you weed out differences that should not be there.
Sure, Thierry cannot speak about every management decision of Sinar but I expect him to be able to say for himself what he can or cannot speak about. He is here as a company representative so if I have a question regarding anything Sinar I will ask him first. Unless the Sinar CEO comes online I might ask him first
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There seem to be a few things under discussion here - so lets try to keep them straight:
Sinar has listed some revised and attractive pricing. This may be a combination of "one time specials" and a general revision in prices. Some distributors or vendors haven't yet picked up the revised Sinar pricing in their price information. This is in part due to delay, confusion perhaps, and possibly an unwillingness to revise their pricing. (even the German on-line vendor hadn't picked up the latest pricing, last I looked).
And now the messy issue of differential pricing - by vendor, and in this case, by country. Ideally, everyone would have the same price everywhere, but seems not to be the case. Added to this confusion is some complications due to recent currency fluctuations.This makes it necessary for a thoughtful shopper to look around and see from where they want to buy. Certainly, local distributors would like to protect their turf, to be sure. Nothing unusual there. One can imagine some interesting distributor:manufacturer discussions about pricing, if one were to be but a fly on that wall.
Sinar's response (if I understand Thierry correctly) seems reasonable: that you can buy direct in Switzerland, or buy from other in other countries, but service is international and not limited by where the good was purchased. Thank goodness there is an opening in the sales/distribution wall. This situation, while not ideal, does seem workable.
Geoff
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Dear Dustback,
may I kindly ask you to stop implying that there is/are arrangement(s)? You have no right to do so and have no idea of how things work.
To answer your question again: what you are paying more in some cases are import taxes and duties, freight costs, customs storage & handling, clearance taxes, forex buffers, etc ...
In China, if the distributor does not use the "grey import" channel, and does it according to local laws, like the Sinar distributor, you pay at least 27% on the imported goods value, due all to import taxes and duties, in India it is even worse (70% currently, a few years back it was 540%), in other countries you don't have any taxes applied.
I do not wish to enter in any debate about what I can say or not say: this is out of context and kind of threatening or implying that I am hiding things. You can always contact Sinar's CEO directly, it is not forbidden. It might take some time to get an answer, but you will get it, being it through me or himself, but certainly not online.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
What do you think I am implying?? I am telling you about my own findings when I asked around for price quotes on Sinar products and I tell you how some distributors reacted. There is nothing implied to that. Sure you can choose to not believe me or ignore me that is fine by me.
Import tarifs for digital back in the Netherlands are:Import duty 0%, VAT is 19% but deductible for companies (and the prices I mentioned are all excl. VAT) there are no other duties or costs other than shipping!! I know how import works. I don't live in China and I am not talking about Chinese/Swiss differences.
I talk about a 5K euro price difference between Switzerland and the Netherlands (on the Sinar 75). Which cannot be explained by import duty or VAT or shipping. My question what other thing is there is not unreasonable since I happen to have imported quite some stuff over the years including things from Switzerland.
I have never ever stated that you are hiding or not telling things. You are obviously either not reading correctly what I write or don't understand what I do write. The only thing I did write and let me say it again and maybe this time it will be clear to you.
You have placed yourself here as a company representative. I will ask you about Sinar stuff first. So you are person number 1 to ask questions unless your CEO is online active on this forum as well. I might ask him first. Now this does not say at all that I believe you are hiding stuff. This was merely a reaction to the statement Graham gave that you might not be able to say everything about Sinar. If that is the case I still say I will ask you first to give you the chance to react. Only if you cannot and I can contact your CEO I maybe would ask him first, he is certainly the person that is allowed to say the most (in most cases).
Now read this again until you see that it by no means meant any harm and please stop acting like I did have this intention.
If you ask me whether I believe your dealers are overcharging.Yes, I do believe they are overcharging here if the MSRP's you quoted are correct and I would not buy from them. You see this is my personal opinion which might not be the truth but sofar nobody has come with a good explanation why this particular price difference exists besides mentioning stuff I can easily calculate myself and simply is not correct.
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more clearly: you did correct Swiss not being part of the EU, I was simply too fast and thats' fine if you understood it. I was not saying "again" concerning the EU, but simply mentioning that you have misunderstood another point.
See my previous email where I agree that Swiss indeed is no part of the EU. I don't know where you get the 'again' from maybe you can explain to me where I made a previous mistake about the EU?.
I agree with you that any distributor has the right to sell to me if I ask for it. Somehow not all the distributors seem to feel that way judging by the email I received last year from your French distributor denying to give me a price quote.
Make pressure to them.
Sorry... it this offends you but my experiences with 'exploring how & where to buy Sinar' have not been a great joy. This latest thing with greatly varying prices does not give me a good feeling.
It does not offend me at all, but I need to correct wrong information or believes. In case of prices there are many (wrong information and believes): no, most of the distributors are not dishonest or charging unjustified premiums, most of the price differences can be explained and understood in a logical way, and such differences exist in all fields.
Best regards,
Thierry
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It seems to me that you are implying, 2 times, that there are arrangements. I do not know what you wish to say with this exactly probably price arrangements, but I on my side want to deny it. Or then I did misunderstand you.
By saying "I expect him to be able to say for himself what he can or cannot speak about" you imply that there are things which can't be said, by extrapolating it a bit further, that things are hidden. I simply wish that there is no confusion and stand corrected if you didn't imply any such.
I know that VAT is deductible and that most prices are given w/o. My point was a general one, like yours. Now if we want to speak specifically about your country, the Netherlands, may be you are right, may be this difference is not justified, I cannot judge this. But you are able to make pressure and have the possibilities to do so.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
What do you think I am implying??
Import tarifs for digital back in the Netherlands are:Import duty 0%, VAT is 19% but deductible for companies (and the prices I mentioned are all excl. VAT) there are no other duties or costs other than shipping!! I know how import works. I don't live in China and I am not talking about Chinese differences.
I talk about a 5K euro price difference between Switzerland and the Netherlands. Which cannot be explained by import duty or VAT or shipping. My question what other thing is there is not unreasonable since I happen to have imported quite some stuff over the years including things from Switzerland.
I have never ever stated that you are hiding or not telling things. You are obviously either not reading correctly what I write or don't understand what I do write.
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But you are able to make pressure and have the possibilities to do so.
Best regards,
Thierry
I am and I will.
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I have never ever stated that you are hiding or not telling things. You are obviously either not reading correctly what I write or don't understand what I do write. The only thing I did write and let me say it again and maybe this time it will be clear to you....
Now read this again until you see that it by no means meant any harm and please stop acting like I did have this intention.
The points are valid. But the message is getting lost in the delivery. Perhaps a deep breath is in order.
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By saying "I expect him to be able to say for himself what he can or cannot speak about" you imply that there are things which can't be said, by extrapolating it a bit further, that things are hidden. I simply wish that there is no confusion and stand corrected if you didn't imply any such.
Best regards,
Thierry
By saying "I expect him to be able to say for himself what he can or cannot speak about" I imply just that nothing else.
Don't try to read between my lines, ask for clarification if I don't make sense to you. I have the reputation to be bluntly upfront and outspoken. I normally don't pass out punches below the belt.
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The points are valid. But the message is getting lost in the delivery. Perhaps a deep breath is in order.
Thx! I will do that.
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Don't try to read between my lines, ask for clarification if I don't make sense to you.
I will, understood.
I have the reputation to be bluntly upfront and outspoken.
Me too.
I normally don't pass out punches below the belt.
Me neither.
Therefore I think we are made to understand each other. No harm in explaining.
Best regards,
Thierry
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I talk about a 5K euro price difference between Switzerland and the Netherlands (on the Sinar 75). Which cannot be explained by import duty or VAT or shipping. My question what other thing is there is not unreasonable since I happen to have imported quite some stuff over the years including things from Switzerland.
I don't know why this goes on and on; the answer is clear: ask your distributor or go to Switzerland.
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I don't know why this goes on and on; the answer is clear: ask your distributor or go to Switzerland.
So what? I have lost my right to ask a question about a price reduction that has been mentioned about 3 weeks ago? I don't recall having asked you anything and the last time I did check, this thread was about the price reduction of Sinar products.
I think I understand that you are getting tired of this debate, in that case don't participate.
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As someone looking to get into MFD I will put in my two cents regarding Sinar. I contacted SinarBron USA for some pricing. This after seeing the Hy6 at Calumet in Chicago. I went to the SinarBron website and based on info there contacted several Sinar dealers in the US asking for pricing. All responses were several thousand ($5,000 to $7,000) above the "OLD" sinar prices you quoted above. When I pointed out the new pricing two dealers said it was below what they are charged by SinarBron USA. One offered to call SinarBron. He called me two days later and said he was told SinarBron is not implementing the new Sinar pricing. I went to the US Customs websites and found that Cameras have no tariffs and are fully duty free. When I contacted SinarBron I got no response after 3 emails. You keep implying we should pressure our dealers. If to work with your dealers we must "pressure" them than that business model is probably costing you a significant volume in sales. I will not work with dealers that require "pressure" and distributors that do not respond to inquiries. Gives me the impression that down the road I will be "left out to dry" when something goes wrong with the equipment. I have chosen not to pursue any potential purchase of Sinar equipment. I have been working with Hasselblad and Phase One dealers. I have found them responsive and helpful. They have also been responsive to negotiating price. I suggest that is the model SinarBron US needs to adopt if they want to make sales.
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So what? I have lost my right to ask a question about a price reduction that has been mentioned about 3 weeks ago?
You aren't asking, you are asking again and again, and each time you get the same answer, and still you complain. I understand that you are frustrated, but it is what it is. The real answer doesn't come from anyone in this thread. Write a nice letter to the CEO of Sinar, or write a nasty letter to your distributor, explaining that they just lost a sale, but filling up threads here doesn't change anything.
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You aren't asking, you are asking again and again, and each time you get the same answer, and still you complain. I understand that you are frustrated, but it is what it is. The real answer doesn't come from anyone in this thread. Write a nice letter to the CEO of Sinar, or write a nasty letter to your distributor, explaining that they just lost a sale, but filling up threads here doesn't change anything.
Show me other posts where I did ask about this difference please?
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Thierry,
Just take a moment. Try to remove yourself as a Sinar employee. Imagine that you're just Joe The Photographer, and you're shopping around for a Sinar solution.
Now. Read back over the last twenty or so posts from this thread. Again, imagine you're a photographer trying to buy Sinar.
This is what we mean when we say people are afraid of Sinar.
You gotta get somebody, anybody, to take charge, and take the reins, and speak with one voice, and set a tone for the brand, and make it simple and trustable for a buying photographer. Even in GOOD times, this thread would give someone pause, but in these trying times, even moreso the need to run a tight, cohesive ship.
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I am only a intermediary in this case, but have been in the shoes of this Sinar customers for real, many years back: I did purchase elsewhere, already at that time.
Thierry
Thierry,
Just take a moment. Try to remove yourself as a Sinar employee. Imagine that you're just Joe The Photographer, and you're shopping around for a Sinar solution.
Now. Read back over the last twenty or so posts from this thread. Again, imagine you're a photographer trying to buy Sinar.
This is what we mean when we say people are afraid of Sinar.
You gotta get somebody, anybody, to take charge, and take the reins, and speak with one voice, and set a tone for the brand, and make it simple and trustable for a buying photographer. Even in GOOD times, this thread would give someone pause, but in these trying times, even moreso the need to run a tight, cohesive ship.
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Keith,
that's right and well said, though it is not always easy when one is asked about openness all the time and throughout the threads. We at Sinar have understood this openness issue and shall communicate via "Newsletters" very soon and on our homepage when it comes to prices. I find it to be a right and necessary step and am not afraid to answers "hot" questions, although I perfectly know that it opens the door to much criticism.
best regards,
Thierry
I'd just like to make it quite clear that the above is in no way intended to be a direct criticism of Thierry, as I understand it he is here as a technical representative and that said would be well advised to limit his responses to technical matters.
My displeasure is aimed squarely at the jaw dropping lack of communication between the MFD manufactures and their partners.
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Show me other posts where I did ask about this difference please?
I am talking about this thread, not others. In general I enjoy your contributions, just so you don't get the wrong impression. I could give a list of the posts in this thread where you post about this issue, after getting the answer, but I don't think there is much point. Just look at the last page or two of posts, and see how often you are there. That is all I am talking about.
Put pressure on your distributor; clearly they deserve it, and good luck with it, but leaning hard on Thierry serves no purpose. Sinar dropped their prices, great for them. They have a network of distributors like all the others. Some of the distributors are greedy, no surprise, but it doesn't reflect on Sinar. Hopefully the planned newsletter will educate their customers enough that the greedy distributors will make significantly less sales, until their prices get back in line.
Thierry, just so I understand correctly: the roughly 6000 price for the e54LV, for example, that is a recommended sales price, meaning that there is already a reasonable amount of profit built in for the distributors, is that right?
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...actually it does. It's up to Sinar, Leaf, Phamiya and Hasselblad to ensure that their distribution and retail partners are up to scratch.
I'll let Thierry answer properly if he wants, but I think it isn't that simple. Well qualified distributors aren't queueing up to sell MF equipment, and finding reliable, fair partners is probably difficult, especially given that good partners can change to bad ones in short periods of time. Otherwise I doubt this whole thing would be such an issue. You'd simply boot the bad guys and let someone else fill in. Long-term relationships is also something you want to nourish. You can't have one dealer sell Sinar backs for 10 years, then boot them, and expect the newly chosen distributor to handle all the servicing on the existing backs, for example. It is something of a Catch-22.
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In the US I believe the issue comes from having a single (probable family owned) distributor with control over pricing for the entire country (SinarBron amd Mamiya (MAC) are good examples) which prevents true price competition and allows some strange business practices. The retailers can only negotiate so much based on SinarBron's or MAC's pricing. In the past I have ordered Mamiya equipment overseas for huge savings.
This model prevents country wide competition on service and price as the retailer does not do the servicing and has to deal with high wholesale prices.
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although i can understand the confusion as well as beeing angry about this local prices ( and i really cant understand these huge differences at least between EU countries ),
i want to remember that this is an old story and belongs to many things. i went to my pharmacy yesterday to buy some eye drops i bought several times in spain. there they cost € 3,-- so i didnt thought anything bad till the woman asked me € 24,-- in the german pharmacy. same size, same company, same product. i discussed with her about... and there came a lot of blabla how good are the prices calucalated and this and that. really boring arguments if you see an 800% higher price for the same product.
or cars. 25% difference between countries in the EU.
many lenses i purchased from b+h, some of them i tested, didnt liked them and sold them immediately as second hand lenses to a big camera shop in munich, without loosing one cent ( incl. transport and 7% import taxes ) cause they have been 30% or more cheaper in the US. why? no idea. and i dont care. i dont like it but looks as this is the world i am living in.
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...actually it does. It's up to Sinar, Leaf, Phamiya and Hasselblad to ensure that their distribution and retail partners are up to scratch.
I agree, it does reflect badly on Sinar if they want to sell their backs worldwide. It's OK if they want to sell them from their front door, I'd be prepared to hop on a plane to their headquarters to get one. But, although I'm very interested in purchasing a Sinar back the UK distributor is useless. They rarely answer emails or queries. What happens if there's a problem with the back at a later date ? It really doesn't fill one with confidence does it ?
Pete
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I agree, it does reflect badly on Sinar if they want to sell their backs worldwide. It's OK if they want to sell them from their front door, I'd be prepared to hop on a plane to their headquarters to get one. But, although I'm very interested in purchasing a Sinar back the UK distributor is useless. They rarely answer emails or queries. What happens if there's a problem with the back at a later date ? It really doesn't fill one with confidence does it ?
Pete
what adds to my confusion is the fact that sinar bron imaging is a sudsidary of sinar.. whatever that entails..as well as being the sole US distributor.
I am a sinar and broncolor and foba customer for the past 20 years and I had nothing but good service from sinarbron but in this day and age I think
it is "time for change..yes we can" jargon, so I agree with the above.. as far a london goes.. wow, I was shocked at sinar's presence there 2005-2007..doesn't sound like they have it together yet... I would think that london would be a priority for sinar..seemed like a pretty big market to me
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what adds to my confusion is the fact that sinar bron imaging is a sudsidary of sinar.. whatever that entails..as well as being the sole US distributor.
I am a sinar and broncolor and foba customer for the past 20 years and I had nothing but good service from sinarbron but in this day and age I think
it is "time for change..yes we can" jargon, so I agree with the above.. as far a london goes.. wow, I was shocked at sinar's presence there 2005-2007..doesn't sound like they have it together yet... I would think that london would be a priority for sinar..seemed like a pretty big market to me
Confusion...... What's that ? The recommended end user price from Sinar for the 54LV is 6,037 Euros. The main UK distributor wants £11,443.64 (approx 14,000 Euros). A plane ticket to Geneva is approximately £80 return (98 Euros).
Pete
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I was told today by a Sinar UK guy that the 54LV is £4,500. Cheap.
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I was told today by a Sinar UK guy that the 54LV is £4,500. Cheap.
Well I'm even more confused now. Where was he from ?
Pete
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I was told today by a Sinar UK guy that the 54LV is £4,500. Cheap.
Can you confirm this, please?
Kumar
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I was told today by a Sinar UK guy that the 54LV is £4,500. Cheap.
Better yet, can you post a link
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... If Sinar has no power (by contract) to force their distributors to go with their lowered prices they should better revise their contracts ASAP.
I don't know about the rest of the world, but in Australia I believe that would be called price fixing and is illegal. I'd say that is why they are called recommended prices rather than dictated prices. I also think that between Australia and USA there is some sort of free trade agreement which could over-ride a manufacturer-distributor territory contract.. maybe other countries have similar arrangements.
David
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Wait, wait. I can understand that Sinar does not have a say in the prices that their distibutors calculate to their customers. But it is very, very strange that distributors ask prices higher than the MSRP. Normally any distributor of whatever product would be contractually obliged to at least ask prices not higher than "recommended" prices by the manufacturer. In this specific case something disastrous for Sinar is happening: they announce a special price, but no distributor wants to stick to that recommended price. If Sinar has no power (by contract) to force their distributors to go with their lowered prices they should better revise their contracts ASAP.
Customs duties and local taxes would obviously be different for each country, so it is possible that the price in some countries would be higher than "recommended prices". Many distributors do not keep stock, but will order a back for you, and deliver it within a few days. So stocking and insurance costs are negligible. Shipping a single back would probably cost about $200~300 by Fedex.
Cheers,
Kumar
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FYI:
I have contacted our distributor in the UK, since many have criticized him and have been confused about the prices there.
The information given to me and the facts are:
- the Sinarback eMotion 54 LV is sold in the UK for £5,500.00
- the webpage has not yet been updated and indicates the old price: our distributor apologizes for this, but a phone call in case of interest for a product would clarify it.
- no price of £4,500.00 has been quoted or given by our distributor.
I can only suggest now to all those wishing to know the prices, to contact the distributor of the respective country to get a clear answer.
Best regards,
Thierry
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It is becoming apparent that a separate forum dedicated to "Sinar Pricing" should be set up at LL.
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... and it is becoming even more apparent that I should set the "Ignore" button concerning you.
Nobody is asking you to like Sinar, but I am asking you to mind your business.
Thierry
It is becoming apparent that a separate forum dedicated to "Sinar Pricing" should be set up at LL.
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- the Sinarback eMotion 54 LV is sold in the UK for £5,500.00
- no price of £4,500.00 has been quoted or given by our distributor.
Thierry, he did say £4,500.00 (I've got my notes as a reference) but a lot of numbers were flying about during our telephone conversation as I'm after a second hy6 and the 65 back - a base iso of 200 is very useful as I intend to keep my 54LV for the 50 iso stuff. It could be that we were talking at cross-purposes at that point.
Still cheap by the way.
All the best,
Carl
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No problem, Carl. For the record, Trevor from Image2output gave me this information.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry, he did say £4,500.00 (I've got my notes as a reference) but a lot of numbers were flying about during our telephone conversation as I'm after a second hy6 and the 65 back - a base iso of 200 is very useful as I intend to keep my 54LV for the 50 iso stuff. It could be that we were talking at cross-purposes at that point.
Still cheap by the way.
All the best,
Carl
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... and it is becoming even more apparent that I should set the "Ignore" button concerning you.
Nobody is asking you to like Sinar, but I am asking you to mind your business.
Thierry
I understand your frustration and anger. Your lack of a sense of humor is inexcusable.
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I have neither any frustration nor a hint of anger. I simply can't stand insulting and disrespectful remarks.
I don't get your humour, pardon me, and I have much better to laugh with my friends here and right now.
If your posts have nothing to contribute but to insult Sinar, then better leave it.
Thierry
I understand your frustration and anger. Your lack of a sense of humor is inexcusable.
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It is becoming apparent that a separate forum dedicated to "Sinar Pricing" should be set up at LL.
Give your head a shake! This is the Sinar pricing thread, if you expected to find something else here, I want some of what you are smoking.
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I have neither any frustration nor a hint of anger. I simply can't stand insulting and disrespectful remarks.
I don't get your humour, pardon me, and I have much better to laugh with my friends here and right now.
If your posts have nothing to contribute but to insult Sinar, then better leave it.
Thierry
It's clear why you would prefer to engage in an ad hominem little spat with me, but I would suggest your time would be better spent huddling up with the home office back in Switzerland about the lack of coherence and transparency in Sinar's pricing policies.
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I have said it, mind your own business. You don't contribute anything with such posts. You seem to find your own satisfaction only by writing such insulting remarks.
Man, you seem to have a serious problem!
Thierry
It's clear why you would prefer to engage in an ad hominem little spat with me, but I would suggest your time would be better spent huddling up with the home office back in Switzerland about the lack of coherence and transparency in Sinar's pricing policies.
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Thierry,
You have the habit of escalating things to each perceived insult (although I have yet to read them as insults). If you are going to participate as a rep of your company a thick skin approach is needed. We don't want to see another GetDPI occurrence. I appreciate your participation here and would like to see it continue. I did not see anything insulting to hcubell's response that justified your elevated response.
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A third-party, independent view offered here only as a FWIW in the hopes of calming things down...
It's taken me some time to realize this, but it appears to me that most of the "complaints" about Sinar products and service experiences originate from the US customer base, and more specifically as it relates to US representation of same. From my own personal experience, I have to agree with Henry in that I've had very poor luck with timely communication or action from US Sinar reps on everything from accurate pricing to getting an obviously defective camera and back repaired. (And in fact it was finally Thierry via pressure on another forum who got the Sinar ball rolling to get that camera and back repaired -- and thank you again for that Thierry!)
OTOH, it appears that most EU customers have quite the opposite experience and are quite satisfied with Sinar, pricing anomalies aside. I'll add that I think Thierry does do a good job in his attempts to defend the Sinar name on these forums which are clearly international in nature. Unfortunately however -- and I suspect it is just a cultural difference -- Thierry's responses and statements usually come across as overly defensive to the point of being rude to anybody (at least to the US participants) who says anything remotely negative about Sinar, and that kind of corporate representation/behavior/culture invariably irritates US consumers...
All offered only FWIW,
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Excellent point Jack. I worked in Switzerland in the 80s and really had to adjust my sense of humor/sarcasm and realize things I said could be viewed as too aggressive. As a lowly currency trader I was expected to tow the line quietly while in the US I was expected to be loud and aggressive in my trading approach.
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I shall let you debate on my "behaviour", and the difference of cultures, and have now myself a sleep.
Nice weekend to all,
Thierry
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Thierry,
You have the habit of escalating things to each perceived insult (although I have yet to read them as insults). If you are going to participate as a rep of your company a thick skin approach is needed. We don't want to see another GetDPI occurrence. I appreciate your participation here and would like to see it continue. I did not see anything insulting to hcubell's response that justified your elevated response.
few people could have been aware how thierry was flamed in getDPI behind the lines by the owner of this site. no way to communicate this, i tried it also
but my posts have been erased there without any comment, so i quit my participation there as well few days after thierry.
this is not happening here and i hardly doubt that it will ever happen, seeing how michael is leading this forum.
thierry has sent me the emails he received by the owner of getDPI and it was incredible root, unpolite and offensive.
that he get bored here sometimes by people who insult and insult in things which are not in his responsability,-
more so because 95% of this people dont work with hsinar backs, i can undersatnd very well and i admire his patience here and his way to response.
i wouldnt have 10% of it.
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As someone looking to get into MFD I will put in my two cents regarding Sinar. I contacted SinarBron USA for some pricing. This after seeing the Hy6 at Calumet in Chicago. I went to the SinarBron website and based on info there contacted several Sinar dealers in the US asking for pricing. All responses were several thousand ($5,000 to $7,000) above the "OLD" sinar prices you quoted above. When I pointed out the new pricing two dealers said it was below what they are charged by SinarBron USA. One offered to call SinarBron. He called me two days later and said he was told SinarBron is not implementing the new Sinar pricing. I went to the US Customs websites and found that Cameras have no tariffs and are fully duty free. When I contacted SinarBron I got no response after 3 emails. You keep implying we should pressure our dealers. If to work with your dealers we must "pressure" them than that business model is probably costing you a significant volume in sales. I will not work with dealers that require "pressure" and distributors that do not respond to inquiries. Gives me the impression that down the road I will be "left out to dry" when something goes wrong with the equipment. I have chosen not to pursue any potential purchase of Sinar equipment. I have been working with Hasselblad and Phase One dealers. I have found them responsive and helpful. They have also been responsive to negotiating price. I suggest that is the model SinarBron US needs to adopt if they want to make sales.
I have had just the opposite experience with SinarBron USA. I have used Sinar products for 20 years - 4 of those completely digital. Any brand of MFD can be a bit of a bumpy road, and for that matter so can 35mm. But I have to say that the people at SB have always been extremely helpful and responsive to any issues that have come up. The product is excellent, but I have to make a living with this stuff every day and if the service and support were not top notch, I would be using another brand.
Theirry is a gem and I am sometimes shocked at the insults and abuse he gets on this forum. I've never met him but he's been so helpful to me via email I feel like he is just "down the street", and I can always count on him for quick information.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience with SB, but it is the total opposite of my dealings with them. My 2 cents.
Best,
Frank Poole
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This is pretty funny to read
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Dear Scott,
At the time Sinar announced their new pricing, there was definately some confusion on our part, as we sorted out how it would affect our pricing. We initially put out some pricing that was incorrect. We corrected our pricing during Photo Plus and notified our dealers and this list. We are currently 15% to 20% higher than Sinar's Market Prices that they have announced. Yes, they give a margin to their distributors but it does not compensate for the distributors around the world that use dealers such as SBI. I am not sure if duty is imposed on an individual purchasing a camera from out of the country, but we certainly pay duty and freight when we purchase cameras and digital backs from Sinar. This also gets calculated into our price. Also, I would appreciate it if you would please contact me offline with the email address you were emailing to, I would like to investigate why you did not receive a reply. I would also be happy to answer any other questions you have personally.
Sincerely,
Greg King
As someone looking to get into MFD I will put in my two cents regarding Sinar. I contacted SinarBron USA for some pricing. This after seeing the Hy6 at Calumet in Chicago. I went to the SinarBron website and based on info there contacted several Sinar dealers in the US asking for pricing. All responses were several thousand ($5,000 to $7,000) above the "OLD" sinar prices you quoted above. When I pointed out the new pricing two dealers said it was below what they are charged by SinarBron USA. One offered to call SinarBron. He called me two days later and said he was told SinarBron is not implementing the new Sinar pricing. I went to the US Customs websites and found that Cameras have no tariffs and are fully duty free. When I contacted SinarBron I got no response after 3 emails. You keep implying we should pressure our dealers. If to work with your dealers we must "pressure" them than that business model is probably costing you a significant volume in sales. I will not work with dealers that require "pressure" and distributors that do not respond to inquiries. Gives me the impression that down the road I will be "left out to dry" when something goes wrong with the equipment. I have chosen not to pursue any potential purchase of Sinar equipment. I have been working with Hasselblad and Phase One dealers. I have found them responsive and helpful. They have also been responsive to negotiating price. I suggest that is the model SinarBron US needs to adopt if they want to make sales.
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Dear Scott,
At the time Sinar announced their new pricing, there was definately some confusion on our part, as we sorted out how it would affect our pricing. We initially put out some pricing that was incorrect. We corrected our pricing during Photo Plus and notified our dealers and this list. We are currently 15% to 20% higher than Sinar's Market Prices that they have announced. Yes, they give a margin to their distributors but it does not compensate for the distributors around the world that use dealers such as SBI. I am not sure if duty is imposed on an individual purchasing a camera from out of the country, but we certainly pay duty and freight when we purchase cameras and digital backs from Sinar. This also gets calculated into our price. Also, I would appreciate it if you would please contact me offline with the email address you were emailing to, I would like to investigate why you did not receive a reply. I would also be happy to answer any other questions you have personally.
Sincerely,
Greg King
hello greg,
Would you be able to clear up my confusion regarding SBI being listed as a subsidiary of Sinar and also as a distributor as described on their website.
Also I'd like the name and contact info of your sales rep in ny.. thank paul
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Just got this email from a good friend of mine who happens to also be a Sinar Hy6 shooter. Please note I am sharing this purely in the spirit of fun and good humor and it is not meant to be taken seriously:
>>Lots of fuss with Sinar pricing over on LL and it really is very simple if you have the formula. Pricing on Monday is 1.0135% of pricing on Wednesday which is 2.0598% less than pricing on Tuesday. Thursday and Friday are special pricing days so you can't apply those rules unless you live in a non-EU country or an EU country that is thinking of withdrawing. None of this applies to Alaska since you can see Russia from there and need to use their pricing. What could be simpler...<<
Then when I asked him if I could post the above he replied thusly,
>>Yeah, right... they have my Hy6 in for repair right now and I'll never see it again Then again, I have their new Hy6 as a swap so maybe not a bad idea. Thierry must practice swimming in quicksand as that's what he seems to be doing with these pricing posts.<<
Then he added this final comment, not funny, but I think maybe explains one of the issues surrounding US support:
>>BTW, my local SinarBron guys are NOT happy with these posts as they can't match the pricing and remain profitable. I think their business model is flawed... not to say you can't work it to your advantage but it takes a bunch of time and effort to get there.<<
And in the spirit of fairness, he also added this in a subsequent email, and seems good info FWIW:
>>BTW, Sinar has now changed their warranty policy on recently sold cameras/backs. If there's something wrong and it needs repair they replace it with a new unit. Nice... but it doesn't apply to my older purchase.<<
Cheers,
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Dear Paul,
The difference is that we are partial owned by Sinar. Our other shareholders are Broncolor & Foba. We are the US distributor for all three brands. Our New York rep is:
Jim Reed 917-402-7550.
Thanks,
Greg
hello greg,
Would you be able to clear up my confusion regarding SBI being listed as a subsidiary of Sinar and also as a distributor as described on their website.
Also I'd like the name and contact info of your sales rep in ny.. thank paul
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Dear Scott,
At the time Sinar announced their new pricing, there was definately some confusion on our part, as we sorted out how it would affect our pricing. We initially put out some pricing that was incorrect. We corrected our pricing during Photo Plus and notified our dealers and this list. We are currently 15% to 20% higher than Sinar's Market Prices that they have announced. Yes, they give a margin to their distributors but it does not compensate for the distributors around the world that use dealers such as SBI. I am not sure if duty is imposed on an individual purchasing a camera from out of the country, but we certainly pay duty and freight when we purchase cameras and digital backs from Sinar. This also gets calculated into our price. Also, I would appreciate it if you would please contact me offline with the email address you were emailing to, I would like to investigate why you did not receive a reply. I would also be happy to answer any other questions you have personally.
Sincerely,
Greg King
Greg,
From your old website version (it looks like it was updated sometime this week with new info/graphics or it may be my switch last night to using Firefox) I emailed 3x to info@sinarbron.com asking for pricing and recommendations on a rep to deal with over a 3 month period. I ended up emailing PPR about the new pricing and they were not aware of it.
Regarding duty and freight. According to the Customs website there is no duty on camera equipment except scientific instrumentation. I get items shipped from Robt White and pay no duty (only a nasty state tax bill later on). There may be duty on wholesale shipments but does duty and freight total over a few thousand $/camera? I manage a technology line of business and have several product managers who report to me so I am very familiar with customs, freight, gross margins and the margins required to finance and support services of our distributor/partners and our own help desk. Price not withstanding I got no response over a month of trying to contact SinarBron and ruled them out based on responsiveness and their distributor (PPR) not having been notified of the new pricing. If my team did not respond to a potential customer's inquiry or failed to keep our field sales and distributors up to date I would lose my job very quickly or at least have my board micromanaging me for a time. My involvement with distributors likely hastened my giving up on further consideration of Sinar based on how I run my own LOB.
This is not meant as criticism just my opinion and experience. If my experience was an anomoly than best wishes. If not it would be wise to do a SWAT of the whole customers service process. I do want that being well aware of what it takes to support a distributorship we do monitor what our distributors charges and if more than our recommended pricing structure we review their cost structure with them and if it is out of line with our other distributors we ask them to correct. This is my last comment on the issue.
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Dear Jack,
This is very funny, effectively, and how good from you that you have got the "ok" to post this from this person: I believe that he has certainly as well given you the permission to post his name, right? Usually such claims are followed by a name and signature, to get any credit.
Could you share the name of this person that it can be investigated and prove what you are writing here?
I doubt you will do this, you have much too much interests in play.
Jack, I will be a gentleman, and not post the PMs with all threats and insults I have got sent from your partner Guy on GetDPI a couple of weeks ago, after which I left, together with some other 10 members. But I have them all saved and backuped. That you are now angry at me that I have left your place, together with your partner, I can understand it.
And I should send you privately the more than 40 replies and reactions I have got to Guy's threats on and insults to my persons: "incredibility" and "biased" were the words used the most.
I will leave this now since it has nothing to do here.
Best regards,
Thierry
Just got this email from a good friend of mine who happens to also be a Sinar Hy6 shooter. Please note I am sharing this purely in the spirit of fun and good humor and it is not meant to be taken seriously:
>>Lots of fuss with Sinar pricing over on LL and it really is very simple if you have the formula. Pricing on Monday is 1.0135% of pricing on Wednesday which is 2.0598% less than pricing on Tuesday. Thursday and Friday are special pricing days so you can't apply those rules unless you live in a non-EU country or an EU country that is thinking of withdrawing. None of this applies to Alaska since you can see Russia from there and need to use their pricing. What could be simpler...<<
Then when I asked him if I could post the above he replied thusly,
>>Yeah, right... they have my Hy6 in for repair right now and I'll never see it again Then again, I have their new Hy6 as a swap so maybe not a bad idea. Thierry must practice swimming in quicksand as that's what he seems to be doing with these pricing posts.<<
Then he added this final comment, not funny, but I think maybe explains one of the issues surrounding US support:
>>BTW, my local SinarBron guys are NOT happy with these posts as they can't match the pricing and remain profitable. I think their business model is flawed... not to say you can't work it to your advantage but it takes a bunch of time and effort to get there.<<
And in the spirit of fairness, he also added this in a subsequent email, and seems good info FWIW:
>>BTW, Sinar has now changed their warranty policy on recently sold cameras/backs. If there's something wrong and it needs repair they replace it with a new unit. Nice... but it doesn't apply to my older purchase.<<
Cheers,
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Dear Jack,
This is very funny, effectively, and how good from you that you have got the "ok" to post this from this person: I believe that he has certainly as well given you the permission to post his name, right? Usually such claims are followed by a name and signature, to get any credit.
Could you share the name of this person that it can be investigated and prove what you are writing here?
I doubt you will do this, you have much too much interests in play.
Jack, I will be a gentleman, and not post the PMs with all threats and insults I have got sent from your partner Guy on GetDPI a couple of weeks ago, after which I left, together with some other 10 members. But I have them all saved and backuped. That you are now angry at me that I have left your place, together with your partner, I can understand it.
And I should send you privately the more than 40 replies and reactions I have got to Guy's threats on and insults to my persons: "incredibility" and "biased" were the words used the most.
I will leave this now since it has nothing to do here.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry, I can attest to the fact that everything Jack posted above is true and correct. As are the extensive problems this particular owner of Sinar product has had. If he wants to come forward and reveal his name, that is his right and his own business, not yours, mine, or Jacks. I can also attest to the fact that what occurred over on that other site should never have taken place, and further that your continued course of public discourse is not only unprofessional, it is down right damaging to the interests of the company you represent. And no, I do not have any axe to grind with any of you, over this or any other issues. The only financial interest I have in any of this is the money I have paid for the gear I've bought, just like most of the good folks on this forum. So please, I would ask that you keep your comments to yourself in future on this topic. I, for one, have heard quite enough on this subject. They do not serve your reputation nor do they reflect well on your employer.
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Unprofessional response. You are not doing your Company any favors at this point
Dear Jack,
This is very funny, effectively, and how good from you that you have got the "ok" to post this from this person: I believe that he has certainly as well given you the permission to post his name, right? Usually such claims are followed by a name and signature, to get any credit.
Could you share the name of this person that it can be investigated and prove what you are writing here?
I doubt you will do this, you have much too much interests in play.
Jack, I will be a gentleman, and not post the PMs with all threats and insults I have got sent from your partner Guy on GetDPI a couple of weeks ago, after which I left, together with some other 10 members. But I have them all saved and backuped. That you are now angry at me that I have left your place, together with your partner, I can understand it.
And I should send you privately the more than 40 replies and reactions I have got to Guy's threats on and insults to my persons: "incredibility" and "biased" were the words used the most.
I will leave this now since it has nothing to do here.
Best regards,
Thierry
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A reminder: personal attacks and slander will lead to banning from the forum.
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sad to see that...
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I think it's time for "Good Night Gracie".
Steve
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There is a lot of self projection and attachment going on.
Contention steals ones serenity.
May I suggest simply.....letting go.
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deleted
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@ smhoer & Chuck,
I am aware that I may sound unprofessional to some. This is my nature. I am not here to get flowers, but to try to help and inform. I have never attacked, slandered, insulted or spoken bad about anyone or any competitor product, or so I think. And I think still remaining polite here.
You may not be fully aware of what happened lately and at an other place, but I am. I will never let myself being insulted and threatened the way it has been done. My human being behaviour takes here the lead, whatever the consequences are and whatever others may think about me. I have my integrity and I will keep it, whatever it will cost, and threats like the ones I have gotten are the very last thing which could bend it. It does not seem apparent to most that this has started simply because some have found it "funny" to bring it over to this respected place. It does seem for many out of place, but for me it isn't. Please respect this.
I find it to be disgusting and unprofessional, to remain polite. And I say it. The Sinar signature under my name will change nothing to this, like it or not. I am not married with a company, simply working for it. I am not asked by a company to be here, simply for my own fun. I am aware that my signature may have consequences for the company I am working for.
Some argue that it needs a "thick skin" to be here or on a forum, and that one should be able to take criticism. I have a thick skin and I am more than open to take criticism, but constructive one, and one leading to a discussion and exchange, not criticism made to harm.
I wish now like all to return to a normal way to do my "work", as seriously as possible. If anybody would stick to some simple rules, such things would not happen. I am not exempt of any criticism, but as said above, won't ever let myself being threatened with the risk of being called unprofessional.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Well said Thierry!
Can we all now put this to bed and move on?
Cheers,
Willem.
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As we all know, the internet is very vulnerable to misunderstandings. Even a joke, told in writing, can be misread by people you know well, and feelings can be mistakenly hurt. Things can be written, and either misunderstood, or said in such a way that one wishes they could be retracted.
Add to that the difficulties of different understandings of language, differing cultural reads about the messages, and possibilities of flare-ups abound. It is pretty clear from the recent round of posts that this is happening - can it be stopped, please?
Let's refocus on our shared goals - sharing of information, and avoid the descent into a pit none of us want. Can we avoid any more personal discussion on this thread for a while?
(sorry - WIllem - this was posted just after yours above: yes, please!)