Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Steve Hendrix on October 10, 2008, 08:55:23 am
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I'm back.
Like many manufacturers, Phase One has been hesitant to officially participate in online forums. There is a risk in having employees post, including the potential of inappropriately revealing confidential information, getting involved in tit for tat exchanges, as well as the challenge of communicating effectively online, which is a language unto itself. It can be a negative experience for a manufacturer.
However recently during some internal discussions at Phase One someone (it wasn't me) indicated that we really should have some interactive presence. A few other manufacturers do and I feel overall it has been a positive for all involved. And really today many manufacturers do participate in online forums, blogs, etc, including some extremely large companies throughout the world. While Phase One employees certainly lurk here, being able to actively participate in dialogue not only further helps our communication to the community, but also helps the company understand the perspectives of the end user more effectively.
So, all that being said, guess who nominated himself against his better judgement? Gone are the free evenings and weekends, the ability to focus on task during the day. But on a certain level, I have also missed participating and instead having to hold my tongue (or fingers).
Since I'm relatively new to Phase One and had very little hands on experience with Phase One in the past, I will at least initially be somewhat limited technically in any responses. In the past my primary purpose was to make sure things were accurate - users or desired users understood what a product could do or could not do, not necessarily how to do it. And I hope to also be able to provide some helpful context from the manufacturers equation in what we're up against day to day. I hope we can learn from each other.
I'm glad to be back.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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You're welcome Steve, good to see you here...
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Like many manufacturers, Phase One has been hesitant to officially participate in online forums. There is a risk in having employees post, including the potential of inappropriately revealing confidential information, getting involved in tit for tat exchanges, as well as the challenge of communicating effectively online, which is a language unto itself. It can be a negative experience for a manufacturer.
However recently during some internal discussions at Phase One someone (it wasn't me) indicated that we really should have some interactive presence. A few other manufacturers do and I feel overall it has been a positive for all involved. And really today many manufacturers do participate in online forums, blogs, etc, including some extremely large companies throughout the world. While Phase One employees certainly lurk here, being able to actively participate in dialogue not only further helps our communication to the community, but also helps the company understand the perspectives of the end user more effectively.
Mr. Hendrix,
God, those first two paragraphs were just painful to read. It reads like one of those hostage videos, where the captor forces the prisoner to write a confession note, and admit guilt, and read it publicly to the world. Every word must be chosen carefully, so as not to rile the army.
Either that, or it reads like a letter from a CEO of an American company who's about to announce his Golden Parachute -- again, every word chosen carefully, to be politically correct.
I will today contact the president of Denmark and try to arrange your freedom, so the old Steve Hendrix can return to true form.
Phase One is beyond clueless -- their bad PR in the medium format world is solely of their own making, long before you came to work for them. Ignoring their customers; not communicating with their customers; announcing "road maps" and then never completing the journey; and simple downright arrogance -- THAT is why so many people are disgusted with Phase One.
On the upside, maybe this is the first glimmer of a slight turnaround in their attitude and approach. We can only hope. On second thought, when I talk to the president of Denmark today, I will attempt to negotiate the elevation of Steve Hendrix to upper upper management. Now THAT would be a sign to the world that (maybe) they give one shit about their relations with customers.
Welcome to your freedom. I hope those shackles didn't leave a permanent mark on your arms.
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Good to see some insiders on the forum, that makes the forum the place to be I think.
Good harmony and insiders, the way it should be.
Better than to pay for something that goes downhill (like that other forum )
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Good News!
Some suggestions(for phaseone):
1. LOWER the price before you loose market to your competitors.
2.A 3" 640*480(or better) LCD and onboard jpeg like sinar e65
3.If you have to stick to mamiya, than make some adaptors for rollei hy6.
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Hello Steve,
Welcome back!
I truly hope to take advantage of your generous and helpful nature now that you are with Phaseone.
Good to see you again.
Henry
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Hi Steve,
It's good to have you back on the forum. Steve gave me some sterling advice and help with some dust issues I had after the purchase of my used Ixpress back eventho the sale had nothing to do with him.
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Great to see you in Phase One cloths Steve. Myself I could not be happier having purchased my Phase products through Lance and CI. I actually have nothing to bitch about. It works and looking forward to C1 4.5 Pro on the 15th
I do want that new 45mm 2.8 D when it comes , keep me on the books for that
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I'm back.
Like many manufacturers, Phase One has been hesitant to officially participate in online forums. There is a risk in having employees post, including the potential of inappropriately revealing confidential information, getting involved in tit for tat exchanges, as well as the challenge of communicating effectively online, which is a language unto itself. It can be a negative experience for a manufacturer.
However recently during some internal discussions at Phase One someone (it wasn't me) indicated that we really should have some interactive presence. A few other manufacturers do and I feel overall it has been a positive for all involved. And really today many manufacturers do participate in online forums, blogs, etc, including some extremely large companies throughout the world. While Phase One employees certainly lurk here, being able to actively participate in dialogue not only further helps our communication to the community, but also helps the company understand the perspectives of the end user more effectively.
So, all that being said, guess who nominated himself against his better judgement? Gone are the free evenings and weekends, the ability to focus on task during the day. But on a certain level, I have also missed participating and instead having to hold my tongue (or fingers).
Since I'm relatively new to Phase One and had very little hands on experience with Phase One in the past, I will at least initially be somewhat limited technically in any responses. In the past my primary purpose was to make sure things were accurate - users or desired users understood what a product could do or could not do, not necessarily how to do it. And I hope to also be able to provide some helpful context from the manufacturers equation in what we're up against day to day. I hope we can learn from each other.
I'm glad to be back.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Welcome back Steve. I am sure that you will be able to contribute even more information now. Everyone missed you on the forum.
Lance
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
Direct: 305-534-5701 x1 | Cell: 305-394-3196
Capture Integration (http://www.captureintegration.com)
()
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Will you be at PhotoEast, Steve?
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Will you be at PhotoEast, Steve?
Ted:
I will be at PhotoEast Friday afternoon walking the show.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Hello Steve,
Welcome back!
I truly hope to take advantage of your generous and helpful nature now that you are with Phaseone.
Good to see you again.
Henry
Hey Steve, glad to see you've returned. Boy do we have a lot of questions for you.
How bout' those Hasselblad Price cuts's?
And how bout that Leaf, Sinar (we call it LEANAR) merger. Man is that going to get difficult trying to figure out who has the best color scheme.
And have your tried Phocus on a . . . . oh I forgot, your with Phase One now so we need to ask Phase questions.
Ok, hold on, let me shut the door and turn the lights down real low.
Uh Steve do you think that Phase will ever have an LCD that doesn't look like a 1989 Samsung Cell phone?
What do you think the Phase price strategy is on the P65+. Do you think they will raise prices, or do you think they will raise prices.
When do you think C1 V 4.5 is going to be out.. 1. Oct 15, 2008 2. Oct 15, 2009 3. Oct 15, 2010
Now on to the real important stuff. Will Phase have Leica lenses for the Phamiya? When will that 90 degree grip come out and do you think they could change the name of the camera from Phase or Mamiya to Rollei? That would confuse the heck of the competition and look cool when I set the camera down at the country club brunch. There is also the upside that if a Mamiya said Rollei on it, that guy from Estonia would poop in his pants and this would complete the medium format confusion cycle. Think about it.
And one other thing. A lot of us are buying those 5d2's, do you think C1 Version 4.5 will let us tether with them. We all get the hint that this won't happen with the 1ds Mark III, but since the 5d2 is just a toy, why not?
Run this by Phase management and see what they say. No hurry, we don't expect a response soon, we know your with Phase now.
Thanks and welcome back.
Oh btw: do you now have a desk at Capture Integration? Those guys are fast. They have PR out on you before Phase One does.
[attachment=8828:cI.jpg]
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Great to see you in Phase One cloths Steve. Myself I could not be happier having purchased my Phase products through Lance and CI. I actually have nothing to bitch about. It works and looking forward to C1 4.5 Pro on the 15th
I do want that new 45mm 2.8 D when it comes , keep me on the books for that
I hope those books have 2010 written on them...:+{
Also I'll keep this in this same post,
I just wrote to Phase the other day saying exactly what Steve has been introduced for. Phase has the Lamest to repsonse on questions and a perfect example of that is their Shitty forum that never goes anywhere and answer never get answered....
Also what the hell is up with 4.5.. Better be out for the 15th or you guys are going to look more like morons than ever.
Not sure if it is the cold country living but there seems to always be a cold Public relations coming from Phase.. They every once in a while talk BS about some new Produc and they take several years to develop it by which at that time it is already looking out of date.
As far as the LCD.. yeh a lot bitch in here that they do not need it, they are a handful, but most would like it and need it. Or do the same boneheads saying that feel the other companies are doing it just for the heck of it??
Come on now get real.
Phase better come out with some new lens, better LCD, I don't care about the 3 landscape guys that don't care about the lcd, that is BS.
I really love my P30 but was temtped and am tempted to Move all to Leaf here soon with the new Hy6 or AFI cameras.
Syncing at high speed is important enough to me to do that. And I can get one MUCH sooner than the phase one vaporware products!
So there steve you have a couple of first post you can clear for us maybe...:+}
PS> Maye your little study group of photographers are not capable of telling you what "we" really need to be done with future Phase One backs.
Have you thought about that?
Get someone like James Russel in there to stir up the designers!!:+}
Snook
Besides all that, welcome!!
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Welcome back, and don't forget to Duck!
My complaint is you aren't still selling Sinar. !:^) But great to have you back on the forum.
Hope the new job goes great for you.
Best,
Mitchell
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I hope those books have 2010 written on them...:+{
Also I'll keep this in this same post,
I just wrote to Phase the other day saying exactly what Steve has been introduced for. Phase has the Lamest to repsonse on questions and a perfect example of that is their Shitty forum that never goes anywhere and answer never get answered....
Also what the hell is up with 4.5.. Better be out for the 15th or you guys are going to look more like morons than ever.
Not sure if it is the cold country living but there seems to always be a cold Public relations coming from Phase.. They every once in a while talk BS about some new Produc and they take several years to develop it by which at that time it is already looking out of date.
As far as the LCD.. yeh a lot bitch in here that they do not need it, they are a handful, but most would like it and need it. Or do the same boneheads saying that feel the other companies are doing it just for the heck of it??
Come on now get real.
Phase better come out with some new lens, better LCD, I don't care about the 3 landscape guys that don't care about the lcd, that is BS.
I really love my P30 but was temtped and am tempted to Move all to Leaf here soon with the new Hy6 or AFI cameras.
Syncing at high speed is important enough to me to do that. And I can get one MUCH sooner than the phase one vaporware products!
So there steve you have a couple of first post you can clear for us maybe...:+}
PS> Maye your little study group of photographers are not capable of telling you what "we" really need to be done with future Phase One backs.
Have you thought about that?
Get someone like James Russel in there to stir up the designers!!:+}
Snook
Besides all that, welcome!!
Obviously you can't be happy with a product and say so. 5 days for C1 BTW. You need the link to get it than or can you find your way.
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Steve,
I'm glad to see you back on LL and welcome to Phase One! I'm even more happy that now you are on the Phase team
that you call Atlanta home base.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Well thank you everyone for the kind and direct words. Wouldn't have it any other way.
I will say for now that there is a lot that is going on with Phase One in front of and behind the scenes. We certainly have our challenges, but we also have the largest base of installed users of any medium format digital brand and you don't attain that position without doing some things right. But challenges do come up and we're certainly facing them like anyone else.
I can say that C1Pro 4.5 will certainly be ready next Tuesday the 15th. I know this took a lot longer than anyone - including us - wanted it to. But it's here, I've played with a beta version some and I think anyone who grabs it will be glad they did.
Right now I don't have enough information to speculate on delivery times or confirmations on some of the things that have been asked about - vertical grip, Leica details, leaf shutters, etc. Hopefully that picture will get clearer (along with other things) soon.
I will look into a list of what products tether to C1 Pro 4.5 and get back to you on that.
Yes, it's a little different stepping in here in the position I'm in now compared to where I was before, so please be patient with me as I get warmed up if I seem to tread a bit carefully at first.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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I for one would rather have you "tread carefully" than the opposite. Remember, you can't please everyone; just keep up the good work.
don
Oh by the way please keep CI fully stocked!
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Ted:
I will be at PhotoEast Friday afternoon walking the show.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Look me up at the Maine Media Workshops booth 755 on Friday... I'll buy you a cuppa for your courage!
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Obviously you can't be happy with a product and say so. 5 days for C1 BTW. You need the link to get it than or can you find your way.
Guy,
You may not like Snook's message but take it for real because he's a full retail paying customer and is just asking for what Phase One promised. Snook didn't make up the term leaf shutter lenses coming soon, that came from Phase.
And Guy, none of us care what deals you have with anyone, but obviously you have something cooking with CI because you mention their name more times than John McCain mentions the term Maverick.
And let's not blow any smoke here. There are more deals and brand loyalty floating around this forum than at a G8 summit, so let's stop the everything is perfect in Phase One land ( or Sinar or Leaf or Hasselblad Land ) and talk straight because the only real problem with Phase One is they can't keep their message on track, or give out any real information that allows someone to really decide if they want to stay or leave.
Phase missed there own deadlines on the software and from Annoucakina their demonstration crashed, so that doesn't make anyone that works for a living too happy to hear that.
As far as communication, Steve, your going to have more work cut out for you than if you just became the political ambassador for the Kremlin. Phase doesn't talk and if they do, they don't talk where anyone can understand what the hell they are saying.
How about trying this. When a customer asks 12 questions, answer all 12, not the three that sound good. If Phase is using old russian glass, then say so. If C-1 will never tether a 1ds3 then say so. Keep it straight.
The funny thing about Phase is they make one hell of a good product and have by all accounts 1/2 the market. Imagine how well they would do if they just shot straight and answered a question or two like does V 4.5 tether with a Canon.
The second funny thing is they did a lot more work on that plastic Mamiya than they tell. They reworked the electronics and made a much better camera and if they could stop taking 4 week holidays they could probably get the lenses out faster.
That Mamiya platform may not have the bling of a Rollei or a Leica, but it does have a focal plane shutter and CAN have leaf shutter lenses to boot. That is something the HY6 and the blad will never be able to do, but first they better start making some glass and get it on the shelves. Second they MUST open up the line of communication with a no B.S. response, because if they don't offer more than Hasselblad, at current prices they will lose market share.
Now one other thing, if they are going to stick with the Mamiya name or Phamiya name they better get to better prices, because like it or not bling does carry some weight.
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I'm back.
Like many manufacturers, Phase One has been hesitant to officially participate in online forums. There is a risk in having employees post, including the potential of inappropriately revealing confidential information, getting involved in tit for tat exchanges, as well as the challenge of communicating effectively online, which is a language unto itself. It can be a negative experience for a manufacturer.
However recently during some internal discussions at Phase One someone (it wasn't me) indicated that we really should have some interactive presence. A few other manufacturers do and I feel overall it has been a positive for all involved. And really today many manufacturers do participate in online forums, blogs, etc, including some extremely large companies throughout the world. While Phase One employees certainly lurk here, being able to actively participate in dialogue not only further helps our communication to the community, but also helps the company understand the perspectives of the end user more effectively.
So, all that being said, guess who nominated himself against his better judgement? Gone are the free evenings and weekends, the ability to focus on task during the day. But on a certain level, I have also missed participating and instead having to hold my tongue (or fingers).
Since I'm relatively new to Phase One and had very little hands on experience with Phase One in the past, I will at least initially be somewhat limited technically in any responses. In the past my primary purpose was to make sure things were accurate - users or desired users understood what a product could do or could not do, not necessarily how to do it. And I hope to also be able to provide some helpful context from the manufacturers equation in what we're up against day to day. I hope we can learn from each other.
I'm glad to be back.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Steve,
It was a pleasure knowing you and having you here (and there) as an ally,
I am sure it'll be just as good having you here as a competitor. You have earned every bit of respect and I hope that your new home appreciates it and lets you have the right freedom of speech.
Good luck
Yair
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The funny thing about Phase is they make one hell of a good product and have by all accounts 1/2 the market. Imagine how well they would do if they just shot straight and answered a question or two like does V 4.5 tether with a Canon.
I am quoting Big Cooter, but I'm directing this to Steve:
What Cooter's talking about above is what makes this so frustrating. Phase *does* make a great product, in terms of the file quality, and the Software. Yes, there is a reason they're a market leader, but with Market Share, also comes responsibility to communicate effectively with their clients.
Think about this: I can remember that Capture One version 4 Pro was due out, *seriously, no kidding*, TWO YEARS AGO. Think about what this does to loyal customers' attitudes, especially when Lightroom and even Raw Developer (one man in his underwear, drinking Dr Pepper, above an Italian Deli) is doing.
And aggravated even further when it looks so ugly when, for some odd reason, the ability to Tether to a 1ds3 keeps getting delayed and delayed. Hmm. Why could that be? So you think: Is Phase a software company, or a camera company, or a back company? And God forbid that anyone would think that Phase would purposely hold back the release of CaptureOne Pro 4, to make it impossible for the 1ds3 to tether effectively. Let's banish that thought. No way Phase would do that, right...? But gosh, it sure does make a man wonder. And it makes Phase look pretty bad. It just sends a possible message that says, "Hey, we can't compete with the 1ds3 fair and square, on the open market, on our own merits, so let's tell the Software part of the company to just hold back the Pro software for a year or even two, to try to cripple the usability of the 1ds3".
And let's not even get into the LCD thing, or the P65 price thing, or that promised WIFI thing. Or their Phase forum, and how the questions get answered SELECTIVELY, depending only on how much each question embarrasses the company. You want a reponse to a Phase Forum question? Just ask, "Gosh, Ulf, how do you stay looking so young and handsome?" That's the only question that'll get answered.
It's a little known fact that, when you translate the words "Phase One" from Danish to English, it translates to "The Boy That Cried Wolf".
So Steve, welcome to your new position. I hope you still have your great sense of humor, because you're going to need it. And more than anything, Phase One needs some too, along with just the tiniest amount of Humanity. I'll bet when you walk into their Boardroom, you'd see a row of those ancient oil paintings of frowning CEOs, holding their pocketwatches, and scowling down on the employees (and customers).
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Guy,
You may not like Snook's message but take it for real because he's a full retail paying customer and is just asking for what Phase One promised. Snook didn't make up the term leaf shutter lenses coming soon, that came from Phase.
And Guy, none of us care what deals you have with anyone, but obviously you have something cooking with CI because you mention their name more times than John McCain mentions the term Maverick.
And let's not blow any smoke here. There are more deals and brand loyalty floating around this forum than at a G8 summit, so let's stop the everything is perfect in Phase One land ( or Sinar or Leaf or Hasselblad Land ) and talk straight because the only real problem with Phase One is they can't keep their message on track, or give out any real information that allows someone to really decide if they want to stay or leave.
Phase missed there own deadlines on the software and from Annoucakina their demonstration crashed, so that doesn't make anyone that works for a living too happy to hear that.
As far as communication, Steve, your going to have more work cut out for you than if you just became the political ambassador for the Kremlin. Phase doesn't talk and if they do, they don't talk where anyone can understand what the hell they are saying.
How about trying this. When a customer asks 12 questions, answer all 12, not the three that sound good. If Phase is using old russian glass, then say so. If C-1 will never tether a 1ds3 then say so. Keep it straight.
The funny thing about Phase is they make one hell of a good product and have by all accounts 1/2 the market. Imagine how well they would do if they just shot straight and answered a question or two like does V 4.5 tether with a Canon.
The second funny thing is they did a lot more work on that plastic Mamiya than they tell. They reworked the electronics and made a much better camera and if they could stop taking 4 week holidays they could probably get the lenses out faster.
That Mamiya platform may not have the bling of a Rollei or a Leica, but it does have a focal plane shutter and CAN have leaf shutter lenses to boot. That is something the HY6 and the blad will never be able to do, but first they better start making some glass and get it on the shelves. Second they MUST open up the line of communication with a no B.S. response, because if they don't offer more than Hasselblad, at current prices they will lose market share.
Now one other thing, if they are going to stick with the Mamiya name or Phamiya name they better get to better prices, because like it or not bling does carry some weight.
And i am not a full paying customer , want to see my invoice. Give me a break. To do a LCD like everyone wants they have to take the 4 button push button system out of it which everyone wants and than completely redesign the back and move the buttons to the corners. Time and money. The rest is not worth my time sorry .
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This thread reminds me:
I live in a very small town in Maine. We have a nice little 4th of July parade. A few years back, the new grammar school principal marched in the parade. He wore ripped clothes, a sign that read "First Year Principle," and a target full of arrows in his back. It was great!
The next year the sign read "Second Year Principle," and he was in a strait jacket.
The pleasures of small town life...
Best,
Mitchell
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Hi Steve,
I'm glad you're here (again). Good luck to you in your new position, Phase One and we Phase users are lucky to have you here.
Best,
Dale
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This thread reminds me:
I live in a very small town in Maine. We have a nice little 4th of July parade. A few years back, the new grammer school principle marched in the parade. He wore ripped clothes, a sign that read "First Year Principle," and a target full of arrows in his back. It was great!
The next year the sign read "Second Year Principle," and he was in a strait jacket.
The pleasures of small town life...
Best,
Mitchell
If he was reading this, (and let's hope he's not), then he would do a couple of cross-throughs, and change "principle" to "principal", and "grammer" to "grammar"!
But you still get a Gold Star for telling this story. I fully expect Steve Hendrix to show up for PhotoExpo (one week from Halloween), dressed in a Kevlar Jacket, or a padded suit like Mike Myers wore as Fat Bastard. He might be wise to do this.
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Thanks Gwhitf,
A bit embarrassing. I edited so now no one will know what you're talking about.
Your name is pretty tuff to spill.
Best,
Mitchell
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Thanks Gwhitf,
A bit embarrassing. I edited so now no one will know what you're talking about.
Your name is pretty tuff to spill.
Maybe if the sign he was wearing really DID say "First Year Principle", there would be appropriate reasons why he might be full of arrows. Or maybe he was trying to send a whole other message.
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The lack of information honestly bothers me too.
There's the "new" T/S lens. You can order it. But none can tell you what it is made of.
If it would be Mamiya glass Phase would make a big headline. If it would be Zeiss glass even a bigger headline.
But there is no headline and no information. So I ask why in the world is this far less than medicore lens now at 3000,-? Why? What is the special thing that makes it worth that price?
You can order the P65+. The press release says that the chip is upgradable. Sounds like the P65+ could be a DB for a lifetime or at least for many, many years.
But none can say what "upgradable" really means. So by now it's a paper tiger. But you can order it!
C1: are they going to make profiles stick or not? Will they make the cache location user selectable or not? ... ... ...
I do not doubt that C1 V4 Pro will be out on 15th. But honestly I assume that the release notes will be... long. Serveral small things that will not work yet. And no information about the date they finally will be fixed.
The P45 is still not supported for tethered shooting on Windows Vista. How long is Vista on the market now? One year? Probably longer.
1 year for a firmware update and it's still not there!
I appreciate very much that someone of Phase One joins the forum now. Hopefully helps to clarify things.
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The lack of information honestly bothers me too.
There's the "new" T/S lens. You can order it. But none can tell you what it is made of.
If it would be Mamiya glass Phase would make a big headline. If it would be Zeiss glass even a bigger headline.
But there is no headline and no information. So I ask why in the world is this far less than medicore lens now at 3000,-? Why? What is the special thing that makes it worth that price?
You can order the P65+. The press release says that the chip is upgradable. Sounds like the P65+ could be a DB for a lifetime or at least for many, many years.
But none can say what "upgradable" really means. So by now it's a paper tiger. But you can order it!
C1: are they going to make profiles stick or not? Will they make the cache location user selectable or not? ... ... ...
I do not doubt that C1 V4 Pro will be out on 15th. But honestly I assume that the release notes will be... long. Serveral small things that will not work yet. And no information about the date they finally will be fixed.
The P45 is still not supported for tethered shooting on Windows Vista. How long is Vista on the market now? One year? Probably longer.
1 year for a firmware update and it's still not there!
I appreciate very much that someone of Phase One joins the forum now. Hopefully helps to clarify things.
Well I am glad also, but sorry to say they will probably not be clarified as I do not think even the people at phase know what is up.
It's like, I hate to say it, a bunch of stoners who kind willow around and not really say or do anything. Constantly.
Upgradeable? upgradeable to what... another back later on, which we have recently seen really useful with leaf as they bailed on the offer they promised to everyone.
Or Upgradeable the actual sensor... Great. you can change out the Sensor in 4 years and still have the stupid small LCD like they have now..
Certainly hope, for the ones that will buy a P65+, it will be upgradeable to a newer back and not sensor.
Don't mean to sound harsh on Phase but it is frustrating when you they are so evasive and cold about their PR'ing.
Even worst I love my P30...:+} I feel they have great service,I just experienced first hand with that on a broken P30. Great fast service and very helpful on everyones part at Phase.
That is why I would like to see them prosper and grow, but not at snails pace to where it becomes frustrating...
Just feel Phase is letting people down slowly with not really fessing up to some of their lateness on their promised products and dates.
We'll all have Leica S2 and Nikon MX's before Phase get's C-1 Pro 4.5.1 and maybe a leafshutter lens on the market...:+}
Now I see why phase leeched on to mamiya, I think they had no other choice with all the other back makers coupling up with camera/lens makers!!
It might have been with Contax if it would have happen years back...
Snook
Hey but welcome to the Phase gang..
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Upgradeable? upgradeable to what... another back later on
http://www.phaseone.com/upload/phase_one_p...ess_release.pdf (http://www.phaseone.com/upload/phase_one_p65plus_press_release.pdf)
Improvements and upgrades based on Sensor+ technology have been
designed to enable:
-- Scaleable pixel and file size
-- Higher sensitivity & dynamic range
-- Increased flexibility for operation and capture
-- Improved capture rates
The P 65+ digital back and the P 65+ camera system are fully
upgradeable, based on advancements in the chip technology, providing
a competitive advantage through enhanced performance and new
functions as well as a lower overall cost of operation. Such
improvements have previously been available only at the cost of new
chips and hardware.
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It is binning, right?
Yevgeny
http://www.phaseone.com/upload/phase_one_p...ess_release.pdf (http://www.phaseone.com/upload/phase_one_p65plus_press_release.pdf)
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Hi Steve,
Glad you're back and hope you got a break in between to rest up. Ha now that you're back - what's the news re: phase backs on the Hy6? Wow that would be cool to see a Hy6 / p65+
Eric
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It is binning, right?
Binning is what they name "scaleable pixel and file size".
Basically binning is 4 pixels are pooled to one. The P65+ has 6micron pixel. With binnging it works like having 12micron pixel.
At a quarter of the resolution you gain 1 stop less noise an the chip level.
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A sincere welcome back, Steve!
Thierry
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Thank you very much! The marketing speak sometimes is too much for a non-native English speaker
It looks like the same technology P1 used in the PhaseOne db20 (P20) years ago. As I remember, an 800 ASA file was half the size of the lower sensitivity files.
Yevgeny
Binning is what they name "scaleable pixel and file size".
Basically binning is 4 pixels are pooled to one. The P65+ has 6micron pixel. With binnging it works like having 12micron pixel.
At a quarter of the resolution you gain 1 stop less noise an the chip level.
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The lack of information honestly bothers me too.
There's the "new" T/S lens. You can order it. But none can tell you what it is made of.
If it would be Mamiya glass Phase would make a big headline. If it would be Zeiss glass even a bigger headline.
But there is no headline and no information. So I ask why in the world is this far less than medicore lens now at 3000,-? Why? What is the special thing that makes it worth that price?
Tho,
You probably know this but it Hartblei (http://www.hartblei.com/lenses/lens_45mm.htm) glass.
I have one with a Contax mount adapter and it's a nice funky lens with a the vintage look.
Phase bought up all of Hartblei's of 45mm Super Rotator lenses and "supposedly" had them re-coated and improved the mount adapter.
Hartblei 45mm Super Rotator cost $450...
Hartblei mount adapter for Mamiya cost thirty bucks...
Re-coating the lens wo't make it sharper. It will probably just ruin the vintage look...
Charging $3,000 for a $450 lens with a new lens mount is about like charging $65,000 for a Hyundai 'cause you put a Cadillac hood ornament on it.
You gotta love MFDB makers.
I think they've all just booked a week the same Spa where the AIG execs hang out...
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It looks like the same technology P1 used in the PhaseOne db20 (P20) years ago. As I remember, an 800 ASA file was half the size of the lower sensitivity files.
Binning is not a new thing as far as I know. But Phase/Dalsa improved it. So I expect that it's more than just 1 stop less noise. Too, I expect that further firmware updates will allow to shoot at a half of the resolution (so you probably will get clean ISO800 at 30MP). But I'm just speculating. Would be helpful when someone finally tell us what they are going to do with binning and what exactly "upgradable" means. An upgrade in ISO and DR? Yes, porbably. Faster image processing of the full resolution capture? Hard to imagine without an upgrade in hardware (the processor itself).
You probably know this
Yes, I know the Hartblei lens. That's certainly fine if you intendedly want to create some trashy, smooth look. And for less than 1000,- that's a funny piece to play with.
You still can buy it with Conatx Mount from Marek Wiese (Hamburg, Germany) who originally designed the lens years ago (as far as the story is true).
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You gotta love MFDB makers.
I think they've all just booked a week the same Spa where the AIG execs hang out...
If medium format execs are at the spa they are probably talking about Hasselblad prices and Canon 5d2's
Don't think for a moment that the Hasselblad announcement didn't rock that industry and for whatever reason Hasselblad has just yanked $10,000 out of the purchase price for their cameras.
Canon even went further and offered better image quality than their top end camera for less than half the price and threw in video for free.
Medium format is caught between a rock and a hard place and it's all their own doing.
They've locked themselves into specialty, value added dealers because the systems were complicated and needed a lot of support for the new user, so unlike other forms of electronic goods the margins were fat.
Medium format didn't invest in support and allowed their dealers to be the first line of defense. Other than Leaf Of America, no medium format brand has a system like Canon's CPS where you can get direct customer support and repair. Does anyone really want to deal with a problem that requires them to call the dealer, who in turn files a report with the maker, who in turn responds to the dealer, who in turn calls the customer with a support number and an address of where to send the camera?
Medium format has also limited their popularity by controlling the market for used backs. At this stage, entry level digital backs should be $5,000, not 12, 15, or 21 thousand. No other electronic product is controlled this way. A used Apple G4 does not sell for just a few points less than a Mac Pro and is not limited to purchase by a few value added dealers.
Does anyone really want to buy a used 39mpx back for $21,000 on Ebay that might not have warranty when they can buy a new Hasselblad Camera Body and Lens for the same price. At $7,000 it's worth the risk, but not at 21 thousand.
The market has changed and most photographers have increased their knowledge of the digital process 10 fold. Medium format has changed in the fact the systems are less complicated.
If you can work Canon's DPP, you can probably work Phocus, C-1, LC11 or Capture Shop by just taking a few hours and watching a tutorial video and you don't have to sit next to a value added dealer to do this.
Bottom line is, if Hasselblad continues down this path and keeps prices low the other makers will have to respond with lowering service, or dealer margins, or god forbid, actually selling their systems in traditional camera stores to increase shelf space.
Shelf space, real or virtual makes all the difference in the world. Ask any manufacturer of any consumer product what they desire most and it is always increased shelf space at a retail level.
The world is changing in many ways, the photographic industry has to keep up. I have this feeling that in two years the way you buy a professional digital camera system will be much different than you do today.
Hasselblad seems to recognize this, obviously Canon and Nikon have always known that price and ease of purchase is the key.
So Steve, since your the forum Point Man for Phase how about a few questions;
Does Phase plan on cutting their prices to match Hasselblad?
Does Phase have a system for offering their cameras in more stores?
Does Phase have a real timeline on when new lenses and accessories will be produced and if so will they live to it or will it be like wi-fi and V4.5 pro, which is years late?
Does Phase plan on offering direct customer support?
What is the plan for the Upgradable P65+. Is it software upgrades, hardware upgrades or both and if so, when, how much?
What is the real truth on Phase/Mamiya/Phamiya lenses. Will they offer leica, Russian tilt shift glass, new Mamiya lenses with leaf shutters and if they plan on it, how soon, how much?
Will Phase allow you to answer any of these questions?
Big Cooter
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Medium format has also limited their popularity by controlling the market for used backs. At this stage, entry level digital backs should be $5,000, not 12, 15, or 21 thousand. No other electronic product is controlled this way. A used Apple G4 does not sell for just a few points less than a Mac Pro and is not limited to purchase by a few value added dealers.
Big Cooter
Spot on Big Cooter. Hell, they should've sold the old backs at real knock down prices, $1000 or so. To students, amateurs, newcomers or whoever. "Here guys, look at the wonderful world of Medium Format Digital on a budget". Instead of which they controlled the supply and probably killed the market. Everybody bought a Canon 5D instead. The trouble is, at the speed things are developing I reckon there was only one chance for them to have got it right and they missed out.
I wonder where all the old backs are, in a damp and dusty basement somewhere gathering dust ?
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Will Phase allow you to answer any of these questions?
Big Cooter
I have this visual scene inside my head right now. It's like a Medium Format Town Hall Meeting Debate, similar to the one last week that Tom Brokaw hosted. We're all sitting around a circular set of bleachers, inside that big soundstage room at Pier 59 Studios. In the center of the room is that Christian guy from Hasselblad, and that Ulf guy from Phase, and Yair from Leaf, and Thierry from Sinar. The carpet is red, (to signify bloodletting in the MF marketplace). The carpet is blue, to signify the color of Phase One's face, for purposely holding up the release of CaptureOne 4.
The debate is moderated by Reichmann. In the bleachers are all pro photographers who are "undecided" at this point in the election of which camera system they will buy. As an usher hands a portable microphone to one of the photographers in the audience who's about to ask the next question, Reichmann announces, in that solemn dry tone: "Our next question, directed to the Phase One candidate, comes from man named Big Cooter, from New York City...."
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Steve helped me out once (and I didn't even buy from him) and I have not forgotten--thanks Steve! He would be an asset to any company. Good luck with PhaseOne.
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Bottom line is, if Hasselblad continues down this path and keeps prices low the other makers will have to respond with lowering service, or dealer margins, or god forbid, actually selling their systems in traditional camera stores to increase shelf space.
Shelf space, real or virtual makes all the difference in the world. Ask any manufacturer of any consumer product what they desire most and it is always increased shelf space at a retail level.
The world is changing in many ways, the photographic industry has to keep up. I have this feeling that in two years the way you buy a professional digital camera system will be much different than you do today.
Hasselblad seems to recognize this, obviously Canon and Nikon have always known that price and ease of purchase is the key.
So Steve, since your the forum Point Man for Phase how about a few questions;
Does Phase plan on cutting their prices to match Hasselblad?
Does Phase have a system for offering their cameras in more stores?
Does Phase have a real timeline on when new lenses and accessories will be produced and if so will they live to it or will it be like wi-fi and V4.5 pro, which is years late?
Does Phase plan on offering direct customer support?
What is the plan for the Upgradable P65+. Is it software upgrades, hardware upgrades or both and if so, when, how much?
What is the real truth on Phase/Mamiya/Phamiya lenses. Will they offer leica, Russian tilt shift glass, new Mamiya lenses with leaf shutters and if they plan on it, how soon, how much?
Will Phase allow you to answer any of these questions?
Big Cooter
Big Cooter
I'll try and answer some of this. But I will have to get back to you on some.
Does Phase plan on cutting their prices to match Hasselblad?
It's clear Hasselblad is trying to accelerate the issue for their competitors and force them to leave the market by daring them to match price. It's already a crowded market for four players. Phase One will do whatever we think is best for us to remain successful. Substantially dropping prices that dramatically is a game changer for any company. Distribution models change and unit sales must increase by a significant factor. Yes shelf space is nice but for premium priced products - and despite the price reduction these are still very expensive items - traditional specialized dealers have been more effective at selling these products, not just supporting them. They don't sell well sitting on a shelf waiting for someone to come in and ask to spend $25,000. This is a part of what I see as the gamble Hasselblad has taken. So, will we respond? Certainly. How will we respond? We'll see. Most of our products are still priced competitively compared to Hasselblad with the primary exception of the 39MP product. And while legacy upgrade pricing has become less desirable from everyone in recent years, Phase One still maintains at least a "difference in price upgrade" for recent purchasers when new product is announced. For customers with longer buying cycles this is not so much of an issue but for those who want the latest and the greatest it is. Will Hasselblad offer this or will you be out of luck?
Does Phase have a system for offering their cameras in more stores?
Offering products at these prices has not historically been shown to be effective in terms of sales or support from general camera stores. But as the market changes we will certainly look at anything that can prove effective for us and beneficial for end users.
Does Phase have a real timeline on when new lenses and accessories will be produced and if so will they live to it or will it be like wi-fi and V4.5 pro, which is years late?
I'll try and get some eta information on lenses. Software and lens development are two extremely difficult processes which can be derailed easily. Even big Canon or Nikon take years to develop lenses and I've heard time and again the wish that Canon would come out with better lenses. So, it's not an issue specific to Phase One. Before the Phase/Mamiya alliance Mamiya took years to come out with the 28mm. We're part of this process now with new digital lenses like the f2.8/45D and the 45-90D Zoom coming as well as Leaf Shutters but it will take time. Since we're in the stages of putting together a very versatile and well rounded system with Mamiya we want to let people know what we have planned, but I think we err on making things seem more on the verge than they are. That said the 80mm Leaf Shutter lens should ship before end of year and the new Vertical Grip sometime first quarter. We have actually shipped new lenses this year including the 150mm/2.8. It's challenging to produce 4, 5, 6 lenses and have them all ready at the same time. We're trying.
Does Phase plan on offering direct customer support?
I will have to answer this more thoroughly at a later time. For now, dealers remain the primary support vehicle. Having the dealer involved as the primary support mechanism I believe is very important. While Phase One internal technical support is highly knowledgeable about Phase One, the dealers provide a more real world context, particularly with different camera/lens configurations. Have you had an issue where you felt you were not getting a resolution from the dealer, tried to contact Phase One and were unable to?
What is the plan for the Upgradable P65+. Is it software upgrades, hardware upgrades or both and if so, when, how much?
I believe the P65+ upgradeability refers to our ability to tweak the sensor, enabling various enhancements. I do not yet have details on the specifics but with the P65+ launching this week in the USA I will have a better sense of that shortly.
What is the real truth on Phase/Mamiya/Phamiya lenses. Will they offer leica, Russian tilt shift glass, new Mamiya lenses with leaf shutters and if they plan on it, how soon, how much?
The Leica relationship I cannot answer yet. It is possible details are still being worked out. I'm pretty excited about the potential of what it means, but I do not yet have details that can propel the story forward. With regard to Mamiya I can say that the relationship continues to move closer just as it appears to be doing. As I mentioned, the 80mm should ship before end of year. I'll try and get details on what is to follow and when. The Hartblei thing - I will say this about the pricing. To enable us to offer it, it is priced where it needs to be. Without our involvement, I think the Hartblie situation would not have a future. And there was a cost involved in us allowing that to happen. I'm not so sure about these being "funky" old glass either. I think it is quite possible that there are definite consistency issues with the batches. Has anyone here ever compared numerous Canon lenses side by side? I have and I've seen differences. That is pretty common knowledge. If it can happen with Canon, why not Hartblei? Does this mean there are Hartblei razor sharp jewels waiting for you to find the right one? Umm, no but I took part in a customer demo with our version of the 45mm t/s one week ago and the results were good (compared with a Hasselblad 40mm and 50mm CF lens). And whatever we are doing - improving the coatings, adjusting optical positioning, etc certainly can have an effect on (perceived) sharpness, contrast, etc, especially on "top of the crop" samples.
Will Phase allow you to answer any of these questions?
Yes. Otherwise what's the point?
I'll try and get more (accurate) information out as soon as I can.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Thanks Steve. I was one of the first to get the new 150mm 2.8 D lenses and it is stellar, just waiting on the new 45mm 2.8 D when that comes to market. Any word on it's time frame and US costs by chance.
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I'll try and get more (accurate) information out as soon as I can.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Steve,
I appreciate your honest answers. Thanks, though out of the 6 questions I asked, the first 5 we're answered with essentially "to be determined at a later date."
Phase may allow you to shoot back, but didn't give you any bullets.
This is the major problem with medium format. A lot of early announcements, then a lot of soon to be explained announcements, but nothing about today.
I'm not a fanboy of Hasselblad, but most of what they are selling today can be bought today and the pricing is very clear.
As a side note. With all of the changes coming in medium format and I think we all know that with the current economy and Hasselblad's aggressive moves, the Leica that already is entering a crowded market and rumors of a large Nikon, there will be big changes. I think anyone that contemplates a new medium format purchase will want these questions answered sooner rather than later.
After all, nobody wants to drop $39,000 on a back or camera system that get's lowered by 10 thousand in a month.
In regards to the current dealer system, they're ok, though in the case of Phase One, for anyone that is savvy about their equipment going to a dealer doesn't do anything but put another layer between the end user and the maker and we all know it's the maker that will be responsible for the fix if there is a problem.
But to really asses how well this system works, I suggest hiring one of those consumer advocate reporters that has a little video camera hidden in their glasses or purse and let them record the complete selling and servicing process for every major specialty medium format dealer in every major market.
I think all the makers would learn a great deal.
Big Cooter
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Steve,
I have another question for Phase you might be able to answer. What's with the different warrantees - classic and whatever the other one is called? And why should a buyer have to pay an extra $3k to get the manufacturer to stand up to a product that already costs $20k or more? It's not a fair analogy but when you buy a car they are always trying to upsell you some warrantee which from what I have read is always a bad deal. So why doesn't phase include a real warrantee with every product? I realize that for some people the platform change is an important part of the program, but probably its more important just to know that it can be done rather than to pay for it up front before you know you'll need it or not.
Eric
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Steve,
I appreciate your honest answers. Thanks, though out of the 6 questions I asked, the first 5 we're answered with essentially "to be determined at a later date."
Phase may allow you to shoot back, but didn't give you any bullets.
This is the major problem with medium format. A lot of early announcements, then a lot of soon to be explained announcements, but nothing about today.
I'm not a fanboy of Hasselblad, but most of what they are selling today can be bought today and the pricing is very clear.
As a side note. With all of the changes coming in medium format and I think we all know that with the current economy and Hasselblad's aggressive moves, the Leica that already is entering a crowded market and rumors of a large Nikon, there will be big changes. I think anyone that contemplates a new medium format purchase will want these questions answered sooner rather than later.
After all, nobody wants to drop $39,000 on a back or camera system that get's lowered by 10 thousand in a month.
In regards to the current dealer system, they're ok, though in the case of Phase One, for anyone that is savvy about their equipment going to a dealer doesn't do anything but put another layer between the end user and the maker and we all know it's the maker that will be responsible for the fix if there is a problem.
But to really asses how well this system works, I suggest hiring one of those consumer advocate reporters that has a little video camera hidden in their glasses or purse and let them record the complete selling and servicing process for every major specialty medium format dealer in every major market.
I think all the makers would learn a great deal.
Big Cooter
Well, it is the weekend. If you can wait until maybe Monday or Tuesday, perhaps I can get some more answers. The bullets will come, otherwise there's not much point in me being here.
And believe me, we know very well what the experience is like at every specialty medium format dealer, not to mention every general camera store. The strengths and minuses of each are certainly taken into consideration as part of our distribution equation.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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In regards to the current dealer system, they're ok, though in the case of Phase One, for anyone that is savvy about their equipment going to a dealer doesn't do anything but put another layer between the end user and the maker and we all know it's the maker that will be responsible for the fix if there is a problem.
This is where i completely disagree about the dealer role. I have been down this path with Leica,Kodak, Hassy of old , Nikon and canon and if I was not friends with leica and management there just is no real support besides a retail store that can't do anything for me except buy something else. They don't have the tools or support to help, not there fault that is the setup . But a dealer holding my hand when i drop 30k on a system is what I want. I need a loaner a product a helping hand on software , hardware or anything else it is there at my disposal. Sorry but to put it bluntly I want not to worry about any of that, call my guy and it is done period and move on. I never had this in 35mm and frankly i like someone there for me without begging. I also do not believe for a second and I am living prove of this the fact that there is a layer between me and Phase . They have called me directly and also have sent me things directly and helped without my dealer doing it for them. Since the day i bought my Phase back i have been in contact with Phase and CI and Lance. Sorry guys and girls but I really like this hand holding and i don't want to go to a retail store which BTW I have many that are personal friends too but they can only do so much but after i drop 30 or 40 k i want that support. Maybe it is just me but i don't want to see this system go away. Be it you like it or not there is a place in the market for it and hope Phase , Hassy and others do not get away from this . Also if this happens the internet support that you enjoy here , on my forum and elsewhere will go bye bye. They would not have any vested interest if there not selling or supporting it and worse case no job to boot. The bottom line you want discount shopping the dealer network will go bye bye, it is just that simple. I for one do not want to see that happen, so careful what you wish for. Lower prices is one thing but taking out what is good about MF and the support is another. There has to be a balance. Tell me what retail shop will give you a 30k back to shoot off there shelf when the crap hits the fan. Not many if they only have one demo in the store if that.
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I Lower prices is one thing but taking out what is good about MF and the support is another. There has to be a balance. Tell me what retail shop will give you a 30k back to shoot off there shelf when the crap hits the fan. Not many if they only have one demo in the store if that.
No worries because you presently have the hand holding system. It's something you find worth paying for.
Not everybody requires this. All they need is good equipment and a manufacturer that will turn around repairs in a timely manner, so why not have the option.
You go to your specialty store and pay $3,000 more, someone else can go to Samy's or B+H and pay $3,000 less. What's the harm?
$20,000 for any product should have a good warranty, regardless and shouldn't be an extra charge.
Big Cooter
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I understand your point but you cannot get a repair done within a couple days .Nikon and canon maybe exceptions to this but no MF at all , and you will need a loaner . Stores do not have loaners . Buy a Leica and repairs can run 2 weeks to 4 months ,I kid you not. Have to remember after 14 days at Samy's or B&H you are on your own. Sure you can buy today from Sean at Camera west a good friend of mine a Hassy 39 system but he may have only one in the store , no loaners to speak of and he would have to call Hassy for a repair so you add that layer in there. Nothing wrong with lower prices I want them too but Pro's need handholding more than discounts without service. I just don't want to see that part of it go away but pricing among the systems is great and good for us end users.
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I understand your point but you cannot get a repair done within a couple days .Nikon and canon maybe exceptions to this but no MF at all , and you will need a loaner . Stores do not have loaners . Buy a Leica and repairs can run 2 weeks to 4 months ,I kid you not. Have to remember after 14 days at Samy's or B&H you are on your own. Sure you can buy today from Sean at Camera west a good friend of mine a Hassy 39 system but he may have only one in the store , no loaners to speak of and he would have to call Hassy for a repair so you add that layer in there. Nothing wrong with lower prices I want them too but Pro's need handholding more than discounts without service. I just don't want to see that part of it go away but pricing among the systems is great and good for us end users.
The thing I don't understand about any discussion in digital capture and more medium format is any difference of opinion always brings up comparisons to the lowest common denominator.
Yes, I know that Leica has really rotten service. I've had a lens in there for months specifically for a focus fix. I also know that CPS and Leaf Of America turn around major repairs in a day and you can speak to them direct, so which one should a manufacturer aspire to, Leica, Canon, or Leaf?
If someone asks where are the promised lenses from Phase or anyone, the response is about Canon's junky wides? I don't see what a good or bad Canon lens has to do with Phase promising product and then going mum for 8 months.
For the price I would think Phase would want to be better than Canon, not compare to the worst example canon makes.
Now in regards to dealers, some of the specialty dealers are good but so are the people like Karen at Samy's that will go to great lengths to getting a fix on your Phase, Leaf, Sinar or Hasselblad. So will any reputable dealer if your a good customer.
In fact the loaner system for me means nothing as I never go out without a backup anyway, medium format and 35mm. Also I chose to use a Contax and rarely does anyone have a digital back with a contax mount sitting on the shelf, so the "value added" part is something I won't take advantage of and don't need to pay for.
I have also seen issues with medium format that range from major to minor and except for a few rare instances the response from dealers or manufacturers is usually that they are working on it and in the end it was up to our studio to find our own fix and workaround.
Anyway, none of this is that important. Buy from who you want, spend what you can afford but don't kid yourself into thinking that the dealer or db makers that sells for less won't sell more product, especially if the products have comparable quality.
I wouldn't go as far to say the medium format sales and distribution system is broken but I do believe it's scheduled for a huge shake up.
The Hasselblad price cut is just a start.
JR
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In regards to the current dealer system, they're ok, though in the case of Phase One, for anyone that is savvy about their equipment going to a dealer doesn't do anything but put another layer between the end user and the maker and we all know it's the maker that will be responsible for the fix if there is a problem.
This is where i completely disagree about the dealer role. I have been down this path with Leica,Kodak, Hassy of old , Nikon and canon and if I was not friends with leica and management there just is no real support besides a retail store that can't do anything for me except buy something else. They don't have the tools or support to help, not there fault that is the setup . But a dealer holding my hand when i drop 30k on a system is what I want. I need a loaner a product a helping hand on software , hardware or anything else it is there at my disposal. Sorry but to put it bluntly I want not to worry about any of that, call my guy and it is done period and move on. I never had this in 35mm and frankly i like someone there for me without begging. I also do not believe for a second and I am living prove of this the fact that there is a layer between me and Phase . They have called me directly and also have sent me things directly and helped without my dealer doing it for them. Since the day i bought my Phase back i have been in contact with Phase and CI and Lance. Sorry guys and girls but I really like this hand holding and i don't want to go to a retail store which BTW I have many that are personal friends too but they can only do so much but after i drop 30 or 40 k i want that support. Maybe it is just me but i don't want to see this system go away. Be it you like it or not there is a place in the market for it and hope Phase , Hassy and others do not get away from this . Also if this happens the internet support that you enjoy here , on my forum and elsewhere will go bye bye. They would not have any vested interest if there not selling or supporting it and worse case no job to boot. The bottom line you want discount shopping the dealer network will go bye bye, it is just that simple. I for one do not want to see that happen, so careful what you wish for. Lower prices is one thing but taking out what is good about MF and the support is another. There has to be a balance. Tell me what retail shop will give you a 30k back to shoot off there shelf when the crap hits the fan. Not many if they only have one demo in the store if that.
Guy,
Would you be willing to pay for this hand-holding? It looks like it. I would not. I don't need a loaner, I don't need help with software, I don't need all that. I have never needed it and probably never will. Now it is integrated in the pricing structure of the equipment itself so we all pay for it. Do you think it is fair I have to pay for those people that do need/want it?
If I ever would ask for it I would be perfectly willing to pay for it.
I think nobody is asking for the abolishment of the dealer system but please let there be an alternative for those that don't need it with adapted prices. The people that really want handholding can go to the dealers where they do pay more but get handholding.
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I think ALL MFDB manufacturers should have order websites like Dell.
Start with a basic choice of Back with 12 months warranty.
Buyer can next add any form of extended warranty for additional $XX
Add loaner when needed $XX
Add choice of camera mount $XXX
Add choice of camera $XXX
Add choice of lens $XXX
Add phone support $XXX
Add on-site support $XXX
Add ....
you get the idea don't you.
That way users of different experience can buy according to his/her needs.
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, but I doubt I would be the one having the fun at the center stage and at the place of my (our) ceo.
Thierry
.... In the center of the room is that Christian guy from Hasselblad, and that Ulf guy from Phase, and Yair from Leaf, and Thierry from Sinar ...
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, but I doubt I would be the one having the fun at the center stage and at the place of my (our) ceo.
Hey Thierry,
It wasn't real, it was just a Dream. If it was real, the bleachers would empty out and all the photographers would rush to the center of the stage and have their way -- with Yair, for running those stripped-in fake LCD ads in PDN; with you, for I'm not sure what; with the Christian guy, well, they might spare him because in the end, he hasn't done anything wrong, he just played hardball, (which everyone respects); with Ulf, it would get really ugly -- they'd have him passed over our heads, like some kind of primitive Mosh Pit, and after that, they'd pass him to the center of the room, and force him to smile or tell an actual joke, or show the slightest bit of proof that he's a living breathing human instead of a robot, and if he failed that test, then well, we'd dress him up like a Dentist and then finish him off.
As far as that dealer system, I guess I get it, in the best of times, but let's admit, what it does is add another firm layer of MARKUP to these backs and cameras. My position is: why should ANY product need another layer of dealer support? Either it works out of the box, with proper documentation and manuals, or you send it back for a refund. This dealer system seems to fall back on the position of: "Well, fellows, this stuff is really complicated, and you photographers aren't really that smart, so instead of us taking the financial hit of preparing good documentation and manuals/videos out of our budget, then we're gonna set up this Dealer System, and then mark up the back even further, and YOU are paying for that."
I've owned H1D; P21, P21+, P30, P30+, P45, P45+. I paid full price for each one. I expected them to work without a bunch of error messages and hiccups. For the most part they did, but there were also glaring issues as well, which were, for the most part, met with the classic silence from Phase One. When i complained to my dealer, I'd hear, "Yeah, I know, I know, I hear that from other photographers too", so how the hell does the Dealer System benefit me? If I wanted a paid shoulder to cry on, I'd hire a hooker.
I've never understood, why does not Phase One just open a USA Office? Put it in Manhattan, or Chicago, or wherever, and let that one office be the contact for the entire country. Phase might not know this, but now they'd got this thing called Fedex and UPS Overnight, and it doesn't really matter where the office is located -- you can get something overnight.
As Mr. Russell mentioned, I (or most any pro) could care less about a Loaner Policy. The day I walk into a job with only one body and back is the day I'll hang it up. You walk in prepared, or you're not a pro. What good is a Loaner if the back/body goes down on the first setup of the day? You're screwed, and you're screwed on your OWN DIME; if you want to see "expensive", then try writing the check for a full crew and talent, when your precious camera goes down at 9am. This loaner thing is only for Weekend Warriors, and trust me, that sunset is gonna happen next week as well, so what is the need/urgency for 24 hour loaner?
I know Phase wouldn't want to take on the financial hit of opening a USA office and selling direct, but hey, is that my problem? Because in the end, this Dealer System just ends up costing me more.
It will get interesting, with these Hasselblad discounts, to see if there is continued margin to support the Dealer System.
When I bought my two 1ds2's, and then later two 1ds3's, I simply walked into my local camera store, grabbed the two boxes, signed the receipt, and walked out. Total elapsed time: two minutes. I have never called them for support, and I don't intend to. If I need support, there's also this thing called The Internet and Google.
The medium format dealers are some of the nicest guys in the world, (well, at least the ones in the south). But this is a New Economy, and honestly, it won't be until the first of the year before we know just HOW new it's gonna be. We might have hit bottom, but on the dark side, this just be the tip of the (world) iceberg. It could not be long before $5000, in the form of two 5DII's, seems like the proper investment to not take a bath.
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hi "gwithf" (will never learn it! - ),
I can only agree with all your are saying and describing. I cannot speak for Phase and their "loaner" policy or dealer system, nor their prices charged for this service(s), only for Sinar.
While you are absolutely right in all you say and the way you describe it, your ideal view of a sales channel (as direct as possible and with as less "layers" as possible), although certainly meeting the expectations of many (probably not the majority), is not the expectation from many others (most probably the majority): there are also numerous customers who really want this service and even expect it (for whatever reason). That's the reality of our daily life, even for me on LL and other forums. And it is not only a question of manuals which are not readable or understandable, or a product which is not working out of the box.
We provide this service, most of the time FOC (even loaners) and with no "added value", except if it is too obviously the customer's mistake. I don't think it is a bad thing, to have such a support from a manufacturer: we have built-up this way a loyal base of customers who know that we are "reachable" and helpful in most of the cases (I know, I will certainly get some answers from some feeling not having been supported, after this!), and we have an almost direct contact to those customers.
Best regards,
Thierry
Hey Thierry,
It wasn't real, it was just a Dream. If it was real, the bleachers would empty out and all the photographers would rush to the center of the stage and have their way -- with Yair, for running those stripped-in fake LCD ads in PDN; with you, for I'm not sure what; with the Christian guy, well, they might spare him because in the end, he hasn't done anything wrong, he just played hardball, (which everyone respects); with Ulf, it would get really ugly -- they'd have him passed over our heads, like some kind of primitive Mosh Pit, and after that, they'd pass him to the center of the room, and force him to smile or tell an actual joke, or show the slightest bit of proof that he's a living breathing human instead of a robot, and if he failed that test, then well, we'd dress him up like a Dentist and then finish him off.
As far as that dealer system, I guess I get it, in the best of times, but let's admit, what it does is add another firm layer of MARKUP to these backs and cameras. My position is: why should ANY product need another layer of dealer support? Either it works out of the box, with proper documentation and manuals, or you send it back for a refund. This dealer system seems to fall back on the position of: "Well, fellows, this stuff is really complicated, and you photographers aren't really that smart, so instead of us taking the financial hit of preparing good documentation and manuals/videos out of our budget, then we're gonna set up this Dealer System, and then mark up the back even further, and YOU are paying for that."
I've owned H1D; P21, P21+, P30, P30+, P45, P45+. I paid full price for each one. I expected them to work without a bunch of error messages and hiccups. For the most part they did, but there were also glaring issues as well, which were, for the most part, met with the classic silence from Phase One. When i complained to my dealer, I'd hear, "Yeah, I know, I know, I hear that from other photographers too", so how the hell does the Dealer System benefit me? If I wanted a paid shoulder to cry on, I'd hire a hooker.
I've never understood, why does not Phase One just open a USA Office? Put it in Manhattan, or Chicago, or wherever, and let that one office be the contact for the entire country. Phase might not know this, but now they'd got this thing called Fedex and UPS Overnight, and it doesn't really matter where the office is located -- you can get something overnight.
As Mr. Russell mentioned, I (or most any pro) could care less about a Loaner Policy. The day I walk into a job with only one body and back is the day I'll hang it up. You walk in prepared, or you're not a pro. What good is a Loaner if the back/body goes down on the first setup of the day? You're screwed, and you're screwed on your OWN DIME. This loaner thing is only for Weekend Warriors, and trust me, that sunset is gonna happen next week as well, so what is the need/urgency for 24 hour loaner?
I know Phase wouldn't want to take on the financial hit of opening a USA office and selling direct, but hey, is that my problem? Because in the end, this Dealer System just ends up costing me more.
It will get interesting, with these Hasselblad discounts, to see if there is continued margin to support the Dealer System.
When I bought my two 1ds2's, and then later two 1ds3's, I simply walked into my local camera store, grabbed the two boxes, signed the receipt, and walked out. Total elapsed time: two minutes. I have never called them for support, and I don't intend to. If I need support, there's also this thing called The Internet and Google.
The medium format dealers are some of the nicest guys in the world, (well, at least the ones in the south). But this is a New Economy, and honestly, it won't be until the first of the year before we know just HOW new it's gonna be.
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Not so much loaners only . How about trying the thing out before you buy. Most MF folks will let you try it out first with a demo . I tried all three Phase backs before I let someone hand me a invoice. I had a real hard time between the P30 and P25 plus's. B&H and Samy's under the current way of doing business don't really have that available. I'm sorry but before I hand over 30 k i want to try the thing. Under 8 k it does not matter as much to try a Nikon or Canon and I can rent one in 10 minutes . There are no MF systems in this town that i could go try and i am in a big city ( Phoenix). Personally i am not going to risk 30 k on a bad mistake on my end if I don't get the correct one. I do understand both view points on this but I do think the dealer system has more value than we maybe giving credit for. I also can tap as well as everyone else the guys from Sinar , Leaf and Phase right here on this forum and my forum for answers. I have yet to see a Hassy dealer and sign up at my forum for sure and have not seen one here, Not counting Steve. Frankly I still have yet to figure out the Hassy system and much less than I know about Sinar and leaf and i don't own them. I just see more good than i do bad. price to pay for this is something that comes with there warranties. maybe they change the way they do that 1 year warranty gets you nothing and a 3 year warranty get's you service than you can decide. This is just a idea and something i said to Leica on there S2, you want it you pay for loaners , demo's and dealer service than buy a 3 year warranty and run it through the Phase network. Sell 1 year warranty no service like any camera at the leica dealer retail stores at a lower cost. Maybe something like this is a game changer in the industry but it serves everyone and there particular needs.
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To Guy:
Why not have one main Phase One office/studio/warehouse based in a central city in the US? Some place where pretty much anyone in the country could fly to with only one change of planes? Chicago or Dallas or Atlanta or even New York? Why not a studio you could go to, even with your own lights, and set up a shot, at their warehouse or studio, and be able to test a P30 alongside a P25, or even P65? Hell, even throw in a Credit Coupon for the airfare if the customer buys within 30 days.
Or for that matter, how hard would it be for someone in Denmark to simply set up a shot in their studio, and post the RAWs for download? And to have them tell you, truthfully, how the back and software was set when those RAWs were shot?
I am telling you -- Phase could do SO much more to earn trust and loyalty, and all from within their own singular corporation, without the crutch of a dealer. The reason that Dave Gallagher has done so well is that he's a good guy -- a human guy -- (even if the Red Sox lost) -- and we've slapped him around enough by now that he knows to tell us the absolute truth when we ask him a question. Phase One could demonstrate that same forthrightness, yet they continue to act like that Wizard of Oz guy, and stay firmly (and secretly) behind the curtain, and in the shadows. They alone will ride the ship down, in this New Economy. It did not have to be that way. They had plenty of options to succeed; they could have changed their ways, based on Customer Feedback. They did not.
If Phase simply installed a U.S. warehouse, along with two or three great Customer Service people, they'd be able to drop their prices and possibly survive. What Phase needs are good reliable trustable "evangelists". Just two or three. Imagine if Phase had someone like that Laforet guy; someone trustable. A real photographer. Not a lab coat guy. Imagine that that guy did with the P65 was Laforet did with that video function of the 5DII. Laforet has made Canon Inc untold MILLIONS in pre-orders, before the camera is even shipping. And the really great thing about what Laforet did, was that he did it not out of financial motivation. (Well maybe some). But I think he did it almost purely out of passion for a great photographic tool; that's what kicked ass about his 5DII project. And other real photographers respond to that. It's about trust and throwing the MTF charts out the window.
I agree with Big Cooter about Steve Hendrix's response about the lenses -- you don't answer a question about your own product by slamming the products of the competition. Sounds like Steve is learning how to toe the company line.
You want Loyalty? Then provide Answers. If not, it's too effing easy to buy a 1ds3, that works right out of the box.
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I had a chat with someone from Phase the other day and he was more than happy for me to load demo camera kit for me to see how good they are.
The Hasselblad fellow in my area has also said that I could use their kit for a job to try it out.
Just as well really as although I live in one of the UK's biggest cities, I cannot buy MF digital kit. Come to that I cannot even rent camera kit of any kind, unless I travel to another city at least an hour away and that if traffic is light.
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Not so much loaners only . How about trying the thing out before you buy. Most MF folks will let you try it out first with a demo . I tried all three Phase backs before I let someone hand me a invoice. I had a real hard time between the P30 and P25 plus's. B&H and Samy's under the current way of doing business don't really have that available. I'm sorry but before I hand over 30 k i want to try the thing. Under 8 k it does not matter as much to try a Nikon or Canon and I can rent one in 10 minutes . There are no MF systems in this town that i could go try and i am in a big city ( Phoenix). Personally i am not going to risk 30 k on a bad mistake on my end if I don't get the correct one. I do understand both view points on this but I do think the dealer system has more value than we maybe giving credit for. I also can tap as well as everyone else the guys from Sinar , Leaf and Phase right here on this forum and my forum for answers. I have yet to see a Hassy dealer and sign up at my forum for sure and have not seen one here, Not counting Steve. Frankly I still have yet to figure out the Hassy system and much less than I know about Sinar and leaf and i don't own them. I just see more good than i do bad. price to pay for this is something that comes with there warranties. maybe they change the way they do that 1 year warranty gets you nothing and a 3 year warranty get's you service than you can decide. This is just a idea and something i said to Leica on there S2, you want it you pay for loaners , demo's and dealer service than buy a 3 year warranty and run it through the Phase network. Sell 1 year warranty no service like any camera at the leica dealer retail stores at a lower cost. Maybe something like this is a game changer in the industry but it serves everyone and there particular needs.
I think medium format has brainwashed themselves. They're like General Motors that keep building SUV's and acting like Toyota doesn't exisit. Of course now they're rushing around like crazy to build a "Toyota", because nobody has the cash to fill up the SUV. Problem is they have parking lots and warehouses full of SUV's they can't sell and unlike medium format at least General Motors has a dealer in every city in the world.
Your in Phoenix and can't buy a digital back locally? I find that almost laughable that a market that size doesn't have a camera store that sells all the digital backs. It's even crazier that the two largest camera stores I've ever walked into, B+H and Yodobashi don't have digital backs behind the counter.
People from all over the world walk into those stores every day, line up and fork over millions of dollars for Nikons, Canons and Sony's, but medium format doesn't believe that those two stores fit into their business model. Amazing.
Today I'm out the door to 4 countries. Do you think that my value added dealer can do anything for me in Moscow or Seoul? If the Phase backs pack up or get dropped I'll just carry them around the world like a paperweight, but if the Canons go down, I'll buy a new one. It may not be the best system but at least I can find a Canon and I can buy a Canon, I can afford a Canon and I can keep shooting with a Canon.
I think medium format wants to sell me a new camera, because I get about 4 e-mails a day from Phase, Leaf and Hasselblad, (nothing from Sinar), but ask a question like what does the P65plus really do, how does it go to 1600 iso, when will it be available and I'm told to come to the specialized dealer for a two hour presentation. Uh, sure, no problem, should I bring the popcorn.
Medium format has built a level of complexity into it's information stream, buying process, warranty and price that does it's best to make the purchase difficult.
Even living in New York doesn't gaurantee you access to every make, brand or mount.
The fact that any camera manufacturer tells me they can not sell their cameras in camera stores would be funny if it wasn't so crazy.
To top it off all the manufacturers have 3 to 4 reps in the U.S. alone and why . . . to talk to the specialty dealers, have lunch, give "demos".
All this really tells me is their margins are too high.
They'd be better off if their reps became sales people and just sold product.
Phase would be a lot better off if they stopped charging $4,000 for a warranty, value added or not.
JR
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I think Phase One does have offices in NY. But why bother flying somewhere when they can ship right to your studio and try it on your own system. Real question is are we paying more for dealer support or are we not. The price when you buy does not say anything of that sort. We can buy a P30 plus with body and lens for almost the same money as we could buy a Hassy /31 system at Camera West. A good friend paid 32k for a Hassy system at Camera West and can we not get a P45 for somewhat the same setup and price, okay price has changed since than on the Hassy. Phase one has yet to respond to it that's all but neither has anyone else. Yes the P65 is expensive be it we need it or not is a personal decision. It will also sell to what the market will bear. I won't be buying it but others will. You also cannot compare a 3500 hundred camera to a 30k MF system in terms of marketing and sales. Everybody's brother in law will buy the 5d regardless of who is promoting it , there is no real money involved. I honestly don't know how you can compare the wide spread use of the Nikons and canons to a much smaller more expensive MF system in terms of service, support and pricing. They just do not compare in my view on any level. I don't know where this i don't trust Phase comes from. They are dependent on Mamiya's times schedule on delivering lenses. Mamiya screws up we blame Phase. Oh well different points of view but i like the dealer support. Never had it with any 35mm and it makes my life easier now. Just call in what i need and get it.
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All this really tells me is their margins are too high.
They'd be better off if their reps became sales people and just sold product.
Phase would be a lot better off if they stopped charging $4,000 for a warranty, value added or not.
JR
More reps would have to be hired to cover the territory our dealers cover and that would eat into a significant portion of those recovered margins. And before this idea of huge margins gets out of hand, let me tell you that Hasselblad dropped the price of their H3DII-39 to below my dealer cost at PPR. So don't get the idea that dealers were making $14,000 every time they sold an H3DII-39. It's going to be a challenge to see if this works for them because they're going to have to sell a lot more units than they have been to make the same profit.
A significant portion of medium format digital sales happen in rural areas, sold to photographers who had no idea the product was available. These sales would almost certainly be lost without specialized dealers, who go out and call on these guys. Essentially, specialized dealers are our reps, we pay them from the margin they make.
I'm not saying we would never look at other methods of distribution. But it's way too simple to see lower price and think it will work for distribution of that high end product with fewer people selling it that know what they're talking about, not to mention getting to the photographers who rarely get into a camera store in a large metroplitan area and ask for something like a Phase One product. People don't ask for these products, these products are presented to them and if that doesn't happen - and it likely won't in a Camera Store - the distribution model won't work.
We charge $3,000 for a 3 year Value Add warranty, not $4,000. You must be thinking of Hasselblad. Oh, I'm sorry, they're $5,000 for their 3 year warranty. Phase One's warranty guarantees next day replacement as well as some nice chotsky items, case, dual battery charger, etc. There is a definite cost to this in the substantial amount of digital backs which we have sitting on our shelves in Melville, New York waiting for a call. And if someone buys the Value Add Warranty for a P+/Phase One camera bundle, the additional cost is only $500 more and includes the Hasselblad lens adapter, which basically pays for the warranty.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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We charge $3,000 for a 3 year Value Add warranty, not $4,000. You must be thinking of Hasselblad. Oh, I'm sorry, they're $5,000 for their 3 year warranty.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
[attachment=8848:Picture_9.png]
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Phase and the other medium format and digital back manufacturers are giving you guys exactly what most of you really want, which is something to whine and bitch about on the internet. Except for a few internet direct sales, everything you buy you buy from a dealer. B&H is a dealer, just not a full service dealer.
If you don't want to pay extra for extra service, then get the classic warranty. That's what it's there for and you'll save yourself three grand. I bought the classic warranty on a couple of backs, but now I get them all with the value added. The loaner is worth it to me- I have enough gear to self-insure, but if a back goes down then I'm out a back until it's fixed, with the value added I'm not.
Why on earth would Phase or any manufacturer want to open up direct retail stores? Dealers are profit centers for the manufacturer, dealers assume the risk of trying to make a market for the product, and dealers handle all the high maintenance customers.
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[attachment=8848:Picture_9.png]
I stand somewhat corrected, the P30+ camera bundle does show a $4,000 price on the VA warranty. On the P45+/Camera bundle, the VA warranty is $3,500. Do we make money on extended warranty? Well, I certainly hope so. But there is substantial cost in tying up units on a shelf just in case someone calls and we have row after row of them at HQ just sitting there.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Phase One's warranty guarantees next day replacement
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Hi Steve
What is precisely meant by next day replacement guarantee? If my back says goodbye after 5PM, will I then have a replacement the day after?
What happens if it's not on stock and have to come all the way from Denmark? Will this guarantee then make me able to rent a back at the the cost of phase?
/David
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Hi Steve
What is precisely meant by next day replacement guarantee? If my back says goodbye after 5PM, will I then have a replacement the day after?
What happens if it's not on stock and have to come all the way from Denmark? Will this guarantee then make me able to rent a back at the the cost of phase?
/David
David:
This is not a 24/7 type of warranty, "standard business hours" would apply. No medium format digital company offers 24/7 support. However, some of the specialized dealers do offer 24 hour support. We guarantee the availability, so "not in stock" issues don't come into play. We literally do have shelf upon shelf of replacement backs sitting on shelves waiting for the call.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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David:
This is not a 24/7 type of warranty, "standard business hours" would apply. No medium format digital company offers 24/7 support. However, some of the specialized dealers do offer 24 hour support. We guarantee the availability, so "not in stock" issues don't come into play. We literally do have shelf upon shelf of replacement backs sitting on shelves waiting for the call.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Thanks Steve!
Just looking for some answers . Does this go world wide, if I for instance go to south africa? Or do I need to be in contract with a specialized dealer to get a back on location in areas where representation of dealers are low? Where do I find a specialized dealer?
/David
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Thanks Steve!
Just looking for some answers . Does this go world wide, if I for instance go to south africa? Or do I need to be in contract with a specialized dealer to get a back on location in areas where representation of dealers are low? Where do I find a specialized dealer?
/David
David
I believe the replacement aspect of the warranty would be restricted to the country of origin with regard to purchase. However to find dealers who might be able to offer support or rentals, go to http://phaseone.com (http://phaseone.com), go to this menu "Contact Us">"Partner Locator" and choose region of choice.
In South Africa, the distributor is F11 Distributors:
www.f11distributors.co.za
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Thanks Steve,
I guess now one of my earlier posts makes more sense for some, when yourself you do confirm the same: margins are far away from what some are thinking, in the MFDB business.
Best regards,
Thierry
And before this idea of huge margins gets out of hand, let me tell you that Hasselblad dropped the price of their H3DII-39 to below my dealer cost at PPR. So don't get the idea that dealers were making $14,000 every time they sold an H3DII-39. It's going to be a challenge to see if this works for them because they're going to have to sell a lot more units than they have been to make the same profit.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Steve,
with all respect, that is a difference of US$ 5'000.- for the VA warranty, for the P30+, not 4'000.-
Best regards,
Thierry
I stand somewhat corrected, the P30+ camera bundle does show a $4,000 price on the VA warranty. On the P45+/Camera bundle, the VA warranty is $3,500. Do we make money on extended warranty? Well, I certainly hope so. But there is substantial cost in tying up units on a shelf just in case someone calls and we have row after row of them at HQ just sitting there.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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I think Hasselblad saw what was coming with the Global market.
It's also possible that they had too much stock that needed to be shifted.
However, form a consumer point,I would be very pissed off,if I had purchased a H system and a week later they drop the price 40%.
Yes these are interesting times we live in.
Willem.
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Steve,
with all respect, that is a difference of US$ 5'000.- for the VA warranty, for the P30+, not 4'000.-
To anyone juggling which warranty to buy, I always tried to buy the Three Year longer warranty for this reason alone: I find that anyone that's in the market for a used back, especially an expensive used back like this, does NOT want to buy any back that does not have a warranty on it. So my reasoning was: I for sure would use that back longer than a year, but I might not use it three years; so if I went to sell that used back to someone, I'd find far greater number of buyers for a back with any warranty on it at all, than for an (expensive) back with zero warranty. A no-warranty back, to me, would be severely devalued in the marketplace. (Hell, they're devalued enough when you go to sell them). So I opted for the longer warranty to preserve resale value.
And think of the note above, about the three year warranty -- the P30 warranty alone would pay for TWO brand new 5DII's. Food for thought.
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Steve,
with all respect, that is a difference of US$ 5'000.- for the VA warranty, for the P30+, not 4'000.-
Best regards,
Thierry
Well it seems like I just can't add today. That pricing that was quoted is not list price from Phase One. List price on P30+ camera bundles:
Classic: $20,490
Value Add: $24,990
Difference = $4,500
Sorry for missing my math lessons. Why Calumet has the difference as $5,000 I do not know.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Thanks Steve,
I guess now one of my earlier posts makes more sense for some, when yourself you do confirm the same: margins are far away from what some are thinking, in the MFDB business.
Best regards,
Thierry
Would you care to reveal what the margins really are just to put this to rest once and for all? It seems to me to make a claim that margins are far away from what some are thinking and yet not to reveal numbers is not to say anything much at all. In fact, I would regard this as a cop out and rather disingenuous.
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It would not be a cop out at all. Margins are company propriety information. You go buy a Cadillac do you honestly think they will tell you the profit and worse yet they say 300 dollar over invoice. Which we all know is BS than they never tell you what the back end deal was from the manufacturer. You think they only made 300 dollars when in fact it is more like 4k. Don't expect a answer from anyone on what margins are. As a Pro do you tell your client the profit made from that job. Let's be realistic here. Frankly i don't care what they make as long as the product works the service is there and i feel comfortable with the price paid. What i don't want to see is less MF OEM's out there which for us makes it more competitive on pricing. If there is only one or two than they will nail you to the wall since that is all you can buy. Great prices are wonderful but again i said this before and folks jumped down my throat, you do NOT want a monopoly out there. Otherwise at the end of the day WE will get screwed with less product and less competition and higher pricing because they can.
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Would you care to reveal what the margins really are just to put this to rest once and for all? It seems to me to make a claim that margins are far away from what some are thinking and yet not to reveal numbers is not to say anything much at all. In fact, I would regard this as a cop out and rather disingenuous.
Thats a ridiculous question. They are trying to run a business.
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It would not be a cop out at all. Margins are company propriety information. You go buy a Cadillac do you honestly think they will tell you the profit and worse yet they say 300 dollar over invoice. Which we all know is BS than they never tell you what the back end deal was from the manufacturer. You think they only made 300 dollars when in fact it is more like 4k. Don't expect a answer from anyone on what margins are. As a Pro do you tell your client the profit made from that job. Let's be realistic here. Frankly i don't care what they make as long as the product works the service is there and i feel comfortable with the price paid. What i don't want to see is less MF OEM's out there which for us makes it more competitive on pricing. If there is only one or two than they will nail you to the wall since that is all you can buy. Great prices are wonderful but again i said this before and folks jumped down my throat, you do NOT want a monopoly out there. Otherwise at the end of the day WE will get screwed with less product and less competition and higher pricing because they can.
A: Margins are not as high as you think.
Me: How high are they exactly?
A: I'm not telling.
What can I conclude from such a conversation?
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Thank you Sean, for the "flowers", but no matter what you are thinking or not, I won't reveal anything, and certainly not under a threatening and disrespectful tone. I stand by what I say and what I said previously, up to you to read/believe/disregard it or whatsoever. Steve's claim is as such already a good indication, speaking about Hasselblad.
FYI: I have been making many claims since nearly 2 years of my presence here: not many have proven wrong.
Now, if you would spare me from your continuous aggressive and provocative comments, I would honestly appreciate.
Best regards,
Thierry
Would you care to reveal what the margins really are just to put this to rest once and for all? It seems to me to make a claim that margins are far away from what some are thinking and yet not to reveal numbers is not to say anything much at all. In fact, I would regard this as a cop out and rather disingenuous.
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I don't know what you can conclude, you tell us/me, but as far as I am concerned I conclude that it is none of your business.
Best regards,
Thierry
A: Margins are not as high as you think.
Me: How high are they exactly?
A: I'm not telling.
What can I conclude from such a conversation?
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There has been NOTHING competitive about the MFD back market since inception.In fact it looks ( from the outside) much like many collusive oligopolies that exist around the world in specialised equipment, tools and manufacturing. The industry economics and dynamics will see much the same outcomes play themselves out as the technology matures.
All that is happening is that companies are finally being forced to accept the fact that no one has a sustainable competitive advantage which differentiates one manufacturer from the other - this position having been arrived at after all sorts of tricks to establish a differentiating point or competitive advantage all to no avail - the closed system ideas as a barrier to exit is the final desperate straw.
So you have each manufacturer with their own version of a closed system but also making versions of backs able to be used on some versions of other manufacturers still open systems ( this is very funny )
Hasselblad has ended up being despised by its traditional user group for changing the rules of engagement pretty much every year - with its OWN client base ( our clients are our worst enemies ) !!! Sinar and Leaf now have a new body but share the same body and lenses and are looking at each other and wondering why they don't merge today instead of waiting for another couple of years ( very funny) and then you have Phase One with Mamiya - well the body works and it has a large established user base so why not?
If companies cant compete by point of differentiation then we are witnessing the commodification of the industry. In technical terms this will mean that the lowest cost producer(s) will win. The only way to be the lowest cost producer is to sell more and lower your costs of production, so you can afford the lower prices to deliver price value to your buyer...but if everyone tries the same strategy then everyone loses. ( another funny outcome ).
There is only one certainty - prices will come down and all companies futures are in the balance. The competitive landscape is changing fast and the significance of Leica's S2 is very high - it signals that the digi chip technology game is maturing - and ..umm this means that CaNikon can choose to play if they like as well - especially if the MFD makers drop their prices low enough to make DSLR users consider the move up..this would drag CaNikon up to MFDish with them.
So I dont know you Steve - but I hear good things from people whose opinions I trust - I am guessing that you figure Hasselblad may not be the place to be anymore - actions always speak louder than words! - All you have to do now is explain to Phase that they too will have to drop prices. the quicker the companies do this the quicker people will be able to start buying- oh unless a little factor like a global recession gets in the way.
Oh one final aside from a proudly NON PRO user - they probably don't know it yet ( maybe Leica suspects it) but the real owners of this market are the glass makers NOT the chip makers - and this will be the next big industry change. The MFD manufacturers can join with body makers - and drive down costs here - in the end the GLASS makers will hold the keys to profitability - as they rightly should ( what a romantic I am )
Just the views of a Hedge Fund - who wouldn't put a dollar of his client's money in this industry - just yet.
Pete
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It doesn't really matter to me if any camera company sells though a value added dealer, direct, or through traditional camera stores. It's a world market and in most cases a free market so that is all of the companies private decision to do business the way they see fit.
I and others are just tossing thoughts out there to see if there is a way to lower costs. For me, value added doesn't add that much, for others it is a wise decision. To each his own.
Still I wonder. For all the people that defend the higher prices of the non Hasselblad products I'd be curious to know how many of them would not jump at a 5, or 10 thousand dollar discount on their next Phase, Leaf or Sinar back purchase.
Steve, there is nothing wrong with changing your mind or changing your position, I do it all the time, because situtations change, but as I am sure you remember, you felt in the past it was good that other makers were offering lower prices to get customers more involved with medium format.
I don't see much difference between the previous announcement about Leaf, from Hasselblad's recent price cuts.
______________________________
It is now official - Leaf is promoting the Aptus 65 now through July 31, 2008 for $13,995. As some remember, I had posted this earlier in the month, but had to pull it back as Leaf was not quite as ready to go as they thought. But it's now official.
What is behind it is hard to say - an answer to Hasselblad? A response to 35mm digital? Benevolence? Open for discussion. But one thing is for sure - it's a benefit to end users who are starting to see more affordable alternatives to 35mm than had previously been available.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
________________________________________
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I think Phase One does have offices in NY. But why bother flying somewhere when they can ship right to your studio and try it on your own system. Real question is are we paying more for dealer support or are we not. The price when you buy does not say anything of that sort. We can buy a P30 plus with body and lens for almost the same money as we could buy a Hassy /31 system at Camera West. A good friend paid 32k for a Hassy system at Camera West and can we not get a P45 for somewhat the same setup and price, okay price has changed since than on the Hassy. Phase one has yet to respond to it that's all but neither has anyone else. Yes the P65 is expensive be it we need it or not is a personal decision. It will also sell to what the market will bear. I won't be buying it but others will. You also cannot compare a 3500 hundred camera to a 30k MF system in terms of marketing and sales. Everybody's brother in law will buy the 5d regardless of who is promoting it , there is no real money involved. I honestly don't know how you can compare the wide spread use of the Nikons and canons to a much smaller more expensive MF system in terms of service, support and pricing. They just do not compare in my view on any level. I don't know where this i don't trust Phase comes from. They are dependent on Mamiya's times schedule on delivering lenses. Mamiya screws up we blame Phase. Oh well different points of view but i like the dealer support. Never had it with any 35mm and it makes my life easier now. Just call in what i need and get it.
Guy, I few months ago, I wrote this post (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2290&highlight=dealers) at your site (getDpi). Then I was recommended to wait until photokina to see the announcements and wait for the prices to drop a bit.
Last week the price for a p25+ here was $14000. I was offered to pay $12500 to upgrade my P20 to a P25+. (NOTE: they give me $1500 for my P20).
Three days later they raised the price of the P25+ from $14000 to $16500 (that's the actual price here for both the P25 and P30 +).
I wrote an email to my dealer, he said he would pass the email to phaseone and since then I've heard nothing from them, but seen the P25+ become $2500 more expensive.
So I know very well where this "don't trust phase one" comes from.
/Samuel
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Well if you have a dealer that will not work for you than do get another dealer, obviously he has not followed through for you. Now Hassy did lower there price by 10k on there 39mpx system others like Sinar , leaf and Phase have yet to respond to it or are not going to respond to it. This obviously would be answered by Steve but maybe there was a actually price increase not sure. Our dollar sucks compared to the Euro we honestly have no control on Global economics and three months ago the world was fairly happy . Today completely a different landscape and many companies have adjusted to the dollar vs euro issue. I would suspect this is the case and something you can not predict. Waiting for Photokinia was something almost everyone did to see what new product maybe coming and if it is better than what currently is on the market. The leica S2 was announced for one and some folks may just take a easy seat and wait for it and skip there purchase now. But everyone did announce new products in the MF industry at least to some degree, some more than others. Sinar, Phase and leaf all announced new backs as well as Hassy.
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Well if you have a dealer that will not work for you than do get another dealer, obviously he has not followed through for you.
Sometimes that's not an option. Many countries have only one distributor/dealer. Some have none.
Kumar
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Than you have to beat on him and tell them you want service. That is what there for and worst case report them to the mother ship. I'm sure all the MF companies want to know about this kind of stuff so they can do something about it. Remember you are the customer and your always right , well at least that is the theory. LOL
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A: Margins are not as high as you think.
Me: How high are they exactly?
A: I'm not telling.
What can I conclude from such a conversation?
He's right -
NOYB.
Geoffrey
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It doesn't really matter to me if any camera company sells though a value added dealer, direct, or through traditional camera stores. It's a world market and in most cases a free market so that is all of the companies private decision to do business the way they see fit.
I and others are just tossing thoughts out there to see if there is a way to lower costs. For me, value added doesn't add that much, for others it is a wise decision. To each his own.
Still I wonder. For all the people that defend the higher prices of the non Hasselblad products I'd be curious to know how many of them would not jump at a 5, or 10 thousand dollar discount on their next Phase, Leaf or Sinar back purchase.
Steve, there is nothing wrong with changing your mind or changing your position, I do it all the time, because situtations change, but as I am sure you remember, you felt in the past it was good that other makers were offering lower prices to get customers more involved with medium format.
I don't see much difference between the previous announcement about Leaf, from Hasselblad's recent price cuts.
______________________________
It is now official - Leaf is promoting the Aptus 65 now through July 31, 2008 for $13,995. As some remember, I had posted this earlier in the month, but had to pull it back as Leaf was not quite as ready to go as they thought. But it's now official.
What is behind it is hard to say - an answer to Hasselblad? A response to 35mm digital? Benevolence? Open for discussion. But one thing is for sure - it's a benefit to end users who are starting to see more affordable alternatives to 35mm than had previously been available.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
________________________________________
This is definately NOT comparing apples to apples. Hasselblad H3DII-31 (their current model) is for $17995, while Leaf is lowering price of OLDER model Aptus 65 & not Aptus 65S, which is their current model. So for Phase One & Leaf to do the same as Hasselblad, they need to drop their prices of their "+ series & S series" & not previous or older series, albeit whether it is discontinued or not.
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Welcome to Steve as well.
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Steve, there is nothing wrong with changing your mind or changing your position, I do it all the time, because situtations change, but as I am sure you remember, you felt in the past it was good that other makers were offering lower prices to get customers more involved with medium format.
I don't see much difference between the previous announcement about Leaf, from Hasselblad's recent price cuts.
______________________________
It is now official - Leaf is promoting the Aptus 65 now through July 31, 2008 for $13,995. As some remember, I had posted this earlier in the month, but had to pull it back as Leaf was not quite as ready to go as they thought. But it's now official.
What is behind it is hard to say - an answer to Hasselblad? A response to 35mm digital? Benevolence? Open for discussion. But one thing is for sure - it's a benefit to end users who are starting to see more affordable alternatives to 35mm than had previously been available.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
________________________________________
I don't have any problem with lower prices. As you point out, I'm all for them as long as they help to provide a sustainable business for the company lowering them.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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This is definately NOT comparing apples to apples. Hasselblad H3DII-31 (their current model) is for $17995, while Leaf is lowering price of OLDER model Aptus 65 & not Aptus 65S, which is their current model. So for Phase One & Leaf to do the same as Hasselblad, they need to drop their prices of their "+ series & S series" & not previous or older series, albeit whether it is discontinued or not.
As of September 22, 2008 Phase One USA reduced the pricing on our P25+ and P30+ digital backs and camera bundles by $2,000. We will continue to evaluate effective pricing as we go forward.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Last week the price for a p25+ here was $14000. I was offered to pay $12500 to upgrade my P20 to a P25+. (NOTE: they give me $2500 for my P20). Three days later they raised the price of the P25+ from $14000 to $16500 (that's the actual price here for both the P25 and P30 +).
I don't quite understand the math here. 14000-12500 = 1500, not 2500. Did you mean $1500, or is there something else going on here which I missed.
I wonder if the Phase prices are responding to currency fluctuations? Their costs are in Danish Kroner, so if the Dollar moves relative to the Danish Krone, then a price shift is logical, if they are not to lose money.
Steve, can you confirm why the price was changed?
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I don't quite understand the math here. 14000-12500 = 1500, not 2500. Did you mean $1500, or is there something else going on here which I missed.
I wonder if the Phase prices are responding to currency fluctuations? Their costs are in Danish Kroner, so if the Dollar moves relative to the Danish Krone, then a price shift is logical, if they are not to lose money.
Steve, can you confirm why the price was changed?
I don't know anything about pricing in other countries. It seems strange that there would be an increase, and if this is so, I would think it would have to be tied to some type of currency exchange. All I know in the USA is that pricing was reduced, not the other way around.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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I don't know anything about pricing in other countries. It seems strange that there would be an increase, and if this is so, I would think it would have to be tied to some type of currency exchange. All I know in the USA is that pricing was reduced, not the other way around.
Ah, I just noticed that the OP lives in Sweden. I think that the Danish Krone is locked to the Euro, but I don't know about the Swedish Krone?
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I don't know anything about pricing in other countries. It seems strange that there would be an increase, and if this is so, I would think it would have to be tied to some type of currency exchange. All I know in the USA is that pricing was reduced, not the other way around.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Steve, with all due respect to you & Phase One. You posted TWICE that the price HAS been reduced by $2000 or whatever, but all anyone would want to know would be, what is the price of Phase One + backs currently are. Kinda like what Hasselblad does, see
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/promotions/31-39-promotion.aspx (http://www.hasselbladusa.com/promotions/31-39-promotion.aspx)
While at
http://phaseone.com/ (http://phaseone.com/)
Nor reading your posts I can't find what + backs cost will be for H series camera? If you guys are in business of SELLING something, than shouldn't the price be posted? e.g LandRover, Mercedes, BMW....
As they say in a very old TV show - "Just the facts, 'mam."
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Ah, I just noticed that the OP lives in Sweden. I think that the Danish Krone is locked to the Euro, but I don't know about the Swedish Krone?
There are no more Scandinavian Krone, except of course for our Norwegian friends who have elected not to join the EU. Thus Phase and Blad and Sinar and Leaf (at least to an extent, in as much as the Isreali currency is tied to the Euro, at least in theory) have all of their costs denominated in the Euro.
If these companies were half way serious about BUSINESS and MAKING MONEY, they would, assuming they sell a large percentage of their production outside of Euroland, hedge for currency swings. Every large exporter hedges against currency fluctuations such that large swings in a currency, as has occured in the US Dollar (going down) and the Euro (going up), do not threaten price stability. If price is being affected by currency swings, someone was asleep at the switch, or the hedges expired and were not renewed, but in that case, they should have planned farther into the future.
Blad may be able to lower their prices, perhaps because they hedged correctly and are in a position to lower prices to take advantage of the margin they bought themselves with their hedge.
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I don't quite understand the math here. 14000-12500 = 1500, not 2500. Did you mean $1500, or is there something else going on here which I missed.
I wonder if the Phase prices are responding to currency fluctuations? Their costs are in Danish Kroner, so if the Dollar moves relative to the Danish Krone, then a price shift is logical, if they are not to lose money.
Steve, can you confirm why the price was changed?
Hi, yes I mean $1500. I just edited my original post.
Thanks
/Samuel
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Steve, with all due respect to you & Phase One. You posted TWICE that the price HAS been reduced by $2000 or whatever, but all anyone would want to know would be, what is the price of Phase One + backs currently are. Kinda like what Hasselblad does, see
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/promotions/31-39-promotion.aspx (http://www.hasselbladusa.com/promotions/31-39-promotion.aspx)
While at
http://phaseone.com/ (http://phaseone.com/)
Nor reading your posts I can't find what + backs cost will be for H series camera? If you guys are in business of SELLING something, than shouldn't the price be posted? e.g LandRover, Mercedes, BMW....
As they say in a very old TV show - "Just the facts, 'mam."
These are the prices in $ from my swedish dealer today (prices updated October 1):
(http://www.samuelaxelsson.com/images/LL/prices.jpg)
Value added between $4000-$5500.
/Samuel
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There are no more Scandinavian Krone, except of course for our Norwegian friends who have elected not to join the EU. Thus Phase and Blad and Sinar and Leaf (at least to an extent, in as much as the Isreali currency is tied to the Euro, at least in theory) have all of their costs denominated in the Euro.
Swedish currency is still Krona, allthough weak
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Steve, with all due respect to you & Phase One. You posted TWICE that the price HAS been reduced by $2000 or whatever, but all anyone would want to know would be, what is the price of Phase One + backs currently are. Kinda like what Hasselblad does, see
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/promotions/31-39-promotion.aspx (http://www.hasselbladusa.com/promotions/31-39-promotion.aspx)
While at
http://phaseone.com/ (http://phaseone.com/)
Nor reading your posts I can't find what + backs cost will be for H series camera? If you guys are in business of SELLING something, than shouldn't the price be posted? e.g LandRover, Mercedes, BMW....
As they say in a very old TV show - "Just the facts, 'mam."
Sean:
I am sorry if I was less than complete in my posting, although I was pretty specific about the $2,000 price reduction, there isn't any "whatever" there. With the $2,000 price drop, the list price (in the USA, I must stress) for both P25+ and P30+ is:
$17,999 (digital back)
$20,490 (digital back, camera bundle, classic warranty)
$24,990 (digital back, camera bundle, VA warranty)
I do not know why pricing has changed in the other direction for the Swedish dealer Samuel mentioned. Samuel - are these list prices or the pricing from the dealer?
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Sean:
I am sorry if I was less than complete in my posting, although I was pretty specific about the $2,000 price reduction, there isn't any "whatever" there. With the $2,000 price drop, the list price (in the USA, I must stress) for both P25+ and P30+ is:
$17,999 (digital back)
$20,490 (digital back, camera bundle, classic warranty)
$24,990 (digital back, camera bundle, VA warranty)
I do not know why pricing has changed in the other direction for the Swedish dealer Samuel mentioned. Samuel - are these list prices or the pricing from the dealer?
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Steve, the prices I posted are from the dealers website.
/Samuel
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Sean:
I am sorry if I was less than complete in my posting, although I was pretty specific about the $2,000 price reduction, there isn't any "whatever" there. With the $2,000 price drop, the list price (in the USA, I must stress) for both P25+ and P30+ is:
$17,999 (digital back)
$20,490 (digital back, camera bundle, classic warranty)
$24,990 (digital back, camera bundle, VA warranty)
I do not know why pricing has changed in the other direction for the Swedish dealer Samuel mentioned. Samuel - are these list prices or the pricing from the dealer?
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Thanks Steve, Since I was a little bit confused, whether $2000 or something else as mention @ prices from across the pond. There was no disrespect (though it might have come across that way) intended toward yoiu or Phase One.
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Sean:
I am sorry if I was less than complete in my posting, although I was pretty specific about the $2,000 price reduction, there isn't any "whatever" there. With the $2,000 price drop, the list price (in the USA, I must stress) for both P25+ and P30+ is:
$17,999 (digital back)
$20,490 (digital back, camera bundle, classic warranty)
$24,990 (digital back, camera bundle, VA warranty)
I do not know why pricing has changed in the other direction for the Swedish dealer Samuel mentioned. Samuel - are these list prices or the pricing from the dealer?
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Steve i don't want to put you on the spot but this is the list price that is posted. Getting with a dealer is highly recommended on your final price to purchase. Listing price is just that
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If these companies were half way serious about BUSINESS and MAKING MONEY, they would, assuming they sell a large percentage of their production outside of Euroland, hedge for currency swings. Every large exporter hedges against currency fluctuations such that large swings in a currency, as has occured in the US Dollar (going down) and the Euro (going up), do not threaten price stability. If price is being affected by currency swings, someone was asleep at the switch, or the hedges expired and were not renewed, but in that case, they should have planned farther into the future.
Well, there is hedging, and then there is protecting against the world's largest economy going down the drain with a flush. I believe that the latter is best done with insurance... It was a long time coming, sure, but the world's best economists were cheering it on all the way. I don't think anyone could have foreseen the extent to which the US Dollar received a beating in the last few years.
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Well, there is hedging, and then there is protecting against the world's largest economy going down the drain with a flush. I believe that the latter is best done with insurance... It was a long time coming, sure, but the world's best economists were cheering it on all the way. I don't think anyone could have foreseen the extent to which the US Dollar received a beating in the last few years.
Hedging is how you insure against currency movement. The opportunity for the current moves and moves to come have been well signalled by other leading indicators. If you were not hedged, you were asleep at the wheel. The key is that you are hedging your present costs against the time of your forecast sales cash income. Hedging against your future costs is more complex.
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If you were not hedged, you were asleep at the wheel.
If the US government and many of the largest banks and insurance companie in the world got caught flat-footed, then I think that small companies specializing in other areas didn't plan for quite this large a movement. Anyway, this is all moot, since we don't know if this is the cause.
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If the US government and many of the largest banks and insurance companie in the world got caught flat-footed, then I think that small companies specializing in other areas didn't plan for quite this large a movement. Anyway, this is all moot, since we don't know if this is the cause.
Well, to be charitable, no one on Wall street was caught flat footed, nor were any of the government bodies. There is a big difference between being caught unawares, willing myopia, and correct analysis but unable to act due to political will. Citibank could have collapsed, but did not. The difference was political will. Last September - November Citibank almost tanked. That's right, Citibank, world's number 1 (still?) bank. BofA and Citi borrowed a few billion (BofA's move was cover for Citi, so as to avoid a panic), shed their bad loans/bad investments, fired management, sold equity to petro states, and is now back to business. Everyone I know in business in NYC was waiting for the other shoe to drop. In any case, Toyota, Honda, et al didn't get flat footed, neither did Deutsche Bank. This crisis is not a surprise to anyone who reads the Financial Times or The Economist.
Over two years ago the Economist raised the alarm about US, Spanish, UK and Irish home values and how leveraged the CDO/commercial paper market was. If Ulf doesn't have time to read the paper that's OK by me, but he should hire a consultant who does read the paper.
They read the FT at Blad, I'm sure of that. They might at Sinar, but they don't lead with exports, at least I don't think they do. I would guess that most of Sinar's revenue comes from Euroland.
Oh yeah, market swings are not insurable, in the sense that you can't buy a policy. Instead, you buy a position to HEDGE against a currency swing or a bad market.
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If the US government and many of the largest banks and insurance companie in the world got caught flat-footed, then I think that small companies specializing in other areas didn't plan for quite this large a movement. Anyway, this is all moot, since we don't know if this is the cause.
The US government, like all governments, are clueless about finance. The management of the banks and insurance companies used the credibility of their brands to enter into very high risk ( dangerous ) gambling to create virtual cash centers (profit that never existed) from which they could take cash bonuses ( cash they put in their own private bank accounts from the company bank account).
Some respected hedge funds were very vocal about the dangers but were ignored and then in one of those great ironies of life, they got blamed for having created the problem.
Aside from all that though is the fact that a company trading internationally must always hedge its costs against it's sales regardless of the volatility of currency markets. Medium format cameras have to start competing on price since there is little to choose between each manufacturer and they are now also directly competing with 35mm.
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Steve i don't want to put you on the spot but this is the list price that is posted. Getting with a dealer is highly recommended on your final price to purchase. Listing price is just that
This is a good point and you can make the dealer system work for you.
Compile a clear and concise list of what you want to buy.
Then go to the db maker's site of the brand you chose and cut and paste every dealer they list to an email.
Send your list to every dealer in your country, or in the EU every country asking price and delivery dates.
Be sure to do this in one e-mail so the dealers know they are competing and mention you have cash in hand and are ready to buy today.
You may have to send this e-mail a few times to get their attention.
Some dealers won't respond, some will be angry that you are doing a compare price shop, but some will want to move product and will offer you a deal, usually saving you thousands.
Keep your buying decision based on price. The manufacturer may want to defer the support and repair of a digital back through the dealer system, but they are ultimately responsible for any fix and the web makes it easy to find the e-mail and contact information for all the db maker's management, so if you have a problem you can get a response and if you have a hardware problem, the dealer doesn't fix it, the maker does, so buy on price.
Now that this forum has representation from every manufacturer you can get most support questions answered here.
Big Cooter
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Honestly price is great but i want a dealer to be able to support me so for me that maybe my first choice . Is find a dealer that wants to work with you and build that relationship first. I have a nice relationship with CI and all the folks there and for me I find this a very nice support system for me. Both in sales and tech support with there folks. I think once you build that relationship than pricing will be good. But either way find a great dealer to work with and know what you want. Be this with any system and even retail stores on other stuff
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This is a good point and you can make the dealer system work for you.
Compile a clear and concise list of what you want to buy.
Then go to the db maker's site of the brand you chose and cut and paste every dealer they list to an email.
Send your list to every dealer in your country, or in the EU every country asking price and delivery dates.
Be sure to do this in one e-mail so the dealers know they are competing and mention you have cash in hand and are ready to buy today.
You may have to send this e-mail a few times to get their attention.
Some dealers won't respond, some will be angry that you are doing a compare price shop, but some will want to move product and will offer you a deal, usually saving you thousands.
Keep your buying decision based on price. The manufacturer may want to defer the support and repair of a digital back through the dealer system, but they are ultimately responsible for any fix and the web makes it easy to find the e-mail and contact information for all the db maker's management, so if you have a problem you can get a response and if you have a hardware problem, the dealer doesn't fix it, the maker does, so buy on price.
Now that this forum has representation from every manufacturer you can get most support questions answered here.
Big Cooter
Setting the cat out among the pigeons, I did exactly that in 2005 when I went shopping for my first MFDB, what I now call the Motha F**king Dastardly Bastard I found out that all dealers have certain territorial privileges and also restrictions outside which they are not allowed to sell. For example, if you're from New York, a dealer from Los Angeles should not be able to sell you a back if you have a dealer in your city. So, almost all said to me, see your local dealer although some were quite willing to deal at the risk of losing their dealerships. I figured these dealers were trying to make whatever money they could to cover the cost of the demo back and then content themselves with selling Canon and Nikon henceforth.
I also got a few quotes from dealers outside of the USA. Some were not allowed to sell outside of their territories and told me so outright but some said sure, it mattered not a whit what the colour of your bills were, money is money. To cut to the chase, when I sat down to compare quotes finally, I found a $5500.00 differential for exactly the same product, with freebies like a HP Ipaq and CF cards to boot, offered by the non-American dealer ($22500 vs. $27995.00). At the same time, I also found out that the American distributor of that back offered the same back as a special student deal to photography students at a very slightly higher price than was offered to me. Putting two and two together, I figured out that the same product was being marked up by a further $5500.00 by the American distributor.
Caveat, the warranty only holds in the territory from which it is being sold. As an aside, in the 1990s, there were certain makes of cameras and lenses which were marked up 40% over what you would pay for them in countries outside the good old USA. Those who have been around long enough know what I am talking about. In fact, Robert White of the UK did a roaring trade selling these cameras and lenses to American customers. Don't blame it on a weak greenback. Taking the prevailing foreign exchange rate and converting them directly, there was still the 40% mark up clear as daylight. Consider that the non-American dealers also have their own profit margins built in. We are talking about quite a margin.
That was in 2005. Perhaps suggested retail prices have equalised across the globe. However, every market has its own cost of doing business, sales tax structure and price of greatest resistance above which products will not sell.
Now, I have friends who are dealers. They have overheads, they have to make a profit to stay in business. I understand that. I do not expect them to sell at their cost. But it is insulting to my intelligence when someone comes along and says that the margins are not high and yet not reveal numbers because what is not high to that someone may well be high to another. It is a value judgment best made by the person himself. Don't pretend to make the judgment call for me and then leave it at that.
In this arena, MFDB makers compete amongst themselves for shelf space. Give an insufficient margin and the dealer won't carry your product because it is simply not worth his time UNLESS you are a market leading product. And these companies know how they stack up against the competition. Margins are the same across the board UNLESS you're that 800-pound gorilla. And you know whether you are.
This is what I learnt about this industry in 2005: large national distributors get 50 percentage points on a product. The smaller national distributors may get about 45 percentage points and more if they meet a certain sales target. Dealers get on average 33.33 points, ranging from 25 points for very small dealers to 40 points for large proactive dealers. On top of that, in the USA for example, the American distributor even marks them up higher because this is 'what the market can bear' with the unfortunate situation that you can oftentimes find the same product selling outside of the USA at below the American dealer's cost! Some companies set up their own distributorships in large markets like the USA because they get to keep the distributor margin then and are free to set prices as much as the market can bear.
The distributor is the direct customer of the manufacturer. The dealer is the direct customer of the distributor. And you, the photographer, are the direct customer of the dealer. The manufacturer does not sell to the photographer. It sells to the distributor who commits to a certain number of backs a year. This is what keeps the factory in production and this is why the manufacturer will not sell directly to the end user except in circumstances where there isn't a distributor or dealer. It simply cannot sit and wait for orders to come in one by one. A manufacturer gets a commitment from its worldwide distributors on certain sizes of order based on the projected market size (on a quarterly basis, for example, dependent on their terms with each other). The distributors pay up, the factory goes into production for that quarter. The sale is done and so on. And it is up to the distributor to sell his backs to his dealers. Of course, they (manufacturer, distributor and dealer) all agree to share on Advertising and Promotion.
You can work out these margins for yourself if you look at the number of backs sold a year, the revenue of the company and its annual profits. Hey, these are slow moving items and I think that they are entitled to their margins. I have attended trade shows of electronic products such as the Las Vegas CES as a member of the trade, which could be classified in the same category. These margins are pretty much par for course for this category of goods.
I leave all these as food for thought.
Flame retardant suit on.
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Welcome back Steve. I am sure that you will be able to contribute even more information now. Everyone missed you on the forum.
Lance
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
Direct: 305-534-5701 x1 | Cell: 305-394-3196
Capture Integration (http://www.captureintegration.com)
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What is a Lance Shad?
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Steve,
Welcome back.....
It is clear that you made the right jump, career wise. There is also absolutley no doubt that Phase One produces the finest MF digital back on the market. Nothing else comes even close. You are in good hands and I am sure that everyone here appreciates your input.
There is so much inane information that is passed by participants who have never used a MFDB, never shot professionally and amount to nothing more than unbridled academics.
So keep you head up, remain sharp and spread the truth.
PB