Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Nick-T on September 30, 2008, 07:41:30 am
-
Just back from 9 days working with Hasselblad on their stand at Photokina and wanted to share some thoughts on the show.
First off the price drops announced on Monday.
It seems to me that the price of MFDBs has long been a subject for discussion (complaint) here on Luminous landscape and I'm surprised at some of the negative comments expressed. I was especially disappointed to see Michael use the phrase "fire sale" with reference to the Hasselblad price decrease announcement.
Michael to his credit has always been very clear about his close relationship with Phase One and I thank him for that, but do wonder if he has a slightly negative outlook on things Hasselblad. I should point out that I am a long time Hasselblad user, I run a large user group for owners, Alpha and Beta test software and was paid by Hasselblad to be at the show, so my opinions certainly are biased.
Michael wrote:
"As consumers we all like lower prices. But what will be the cost of this to the companies that make them and who find their margins and sales drying up? Desperation is contagious."
Dealers have always had lower margins on upgrades, and upgrades have always been the majority of sales made, with the new pricing the upgrade paths no longer exist. The dealers will be pleased about this as upgrades are complex and heavily discounted.
For existing users it would appear at first glance that the removal of the upgrade program would seem to be very bad news, however there is a rather significant silver lining.
Here is an indicative scenario:
Joe User wishes to trade his Hasselblad 22 product against a 39. Previously he could have traded his 22 in and paid 12 600 euro to upgrade to a 39. Now he now longer has a trade in but can buy a 39MP outright for 15 000.
For 2400 euro more he gets a 39 and can keep his 22 as a backup, which I think is a pretty compelling deal.
As for Michael's use of the word "desperation" I think if you had been at Photokina you would have disagreed. The stand was very impressive, (I'll post some pictures in the next few days) and very busy. The sales figures for the show were absolutely extraordinary but I'm not sure the actual figure is supposed to be public knowledge, so you'll just have to trust me when I say it was substantial.
On to products.
I spent most of my time showing the HTS and Phocus 1.1.
The HTS is a very nice piece of kit (the one we were shooting with still has a few tweaks to be made) and 'Blad are expecting to ship in January (hopefully to me first:)).
The amazing thing (to me) about the HTS is that the movements (tilt/swing, rise/fall/shift and rotation) are read by sensors in the HTS and embedded in the files meta data so that Phocus can preform lens corrections. The distortion correction is particularly impressive. The corrections work with any (of the 5 supported) lenses and or extension tube combinations.
Its also worth noting that the HTS works mechanically on any H body and digital back but without the significant benefit of Lens Corrections.
Phocus 1.1 is a solid improvement on 1.01 with performance enhancements and new features. Should be available in a week or so for download.
The new zoom (35-90 4/5.6 HCD) is great, about 250 grams lighter than the 50-110, thinner (but about the same length) and the AF is about twice as fast. The price is pretty eye-watering however (I'm told due to high R&D and use of aspherical glass).
I shot quite a bit with the new 50MP but cannot discuss some of it's clever features as yet as they are not quite confirmed.
Nick-T
-
Good to hear the Photokina went well. I wanted to go on sunday but eventually decided to stay in my bed and get some sleep. Maybe next show that is a bit closer
I agree the abolisment of the trade-up program will be a good thing, eventually. Still I am very happy I can trade-up my 384 towards the 39MS under the old program
Especially considering I already have a backup CF39.
Is there any sight on stuff like a CF50? Or a 3" screen on the CF? I know I seem to be the odd one out that is using something other than the H3 but I am sure there are more of us
The HTS looks promising. Does it work with the H2F as well (with auto lens corrections naturally)? I assume it does but it would be nice to get this confirmed.
-
Thanks for your report Nick-T!
May I ask you about the tethering performance of the H3dII together with Phocus 1.1?
As far as that goes I think I am quite spoiled using Phase normally, but the new pricing once again raises the question if the Hasselblad system is becoming a real alternative.
So if you shoot tethered, is there any buffer to hit or can you just shoot non stop till your harddrive is full like with c1? How quick do the previews show up and does the system keep it's speed or does it slow down after some frames? Is there a limit of captures in the shooting folder?
Anybody else who uses the H3dII for fashion is of course welcome to chime in here as well.
thanks,
martin
-
............... It seems to me that the price of MFDBs has long been a subject for discussion (complaint) here on Luminous landscape and I'm surprised at some of the negative comments expressed. I was especially disappointed to see Michael use the phrase "fire sale" with reference to the Hasselblad price decrease announcement.
Michael to his credit has always been very clear about his close relationship with Phase One and I thank him for that, but do wonder if he has a slightly negative outlook on things Hasselblad. ..........
Michael wrote:
"As consumers we all like lower prices. But what will be the cost of this to the companies that make them and who find their margins and sales drying up? Desperation is contagious."
........................................
Nick-T
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225722\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thank you for so delicately putting it, as we all do tread gently for comments like yours. I have been mulling for at least a few days over the same comments by Michael, as I too was quite disaapointed, though not surprised. Not surprised as Michael has in past (see his comments @ Hasselblad H3D) his total disdain, abhorrence toward everything Hasselblad. True he always ends his comments by mentioning he uses Hasselblad H series. I personally think his comments DO imply that Hasselblad is in financial trouble, hence the term "fire sale". But I am sure as everybody is quite aware, that as products gets more advanced, they do drop in prices. Just like our obsolete computers, film cameras & last years new fangled MPs cameras. Also R & D is recovered.
Au Contraire, I strongly believe opposite is true, Phase One's alliance with Leica S series, shows that Phase One is again betting on the wrong horse. For life of me I can't believe too many S series Leica will be sold, other than testers, as they seem like ludicrously expensive for a product, that is just being developed. To quote James Russell,"Really what does it offer that a working photographer has to have?"
I know Michael does not approve of rumours on this forum for which I applaude him, but there sure was innuendo or should I say "in your endo, Hasselblad."
I think it was brilliant of Hasselblad to drop their prices, as you don't know what H4D will bring? Tilting LCD screen like Leaf, Wifi capabilities, like Leaf. A complete new size sensor - left overs from Leica, or just preparing for the storm from economic meltdown, that may be compounded by Nikon MX/D3X ....
But most of all Hasselblad is doing, what every ....Microsoft, Google does - make it tougher for competion to make profit - Business 101.
-
All I care to add to this thread is that I call them the way I see them.
If this rubs some people (or companies) the wrong way, then that's just the way it is.
I avoid regurgitated press releases, company "positions" or popular (safe) positions. I like some products (and companies) and have issues with others.
It all comes down to a matter of informed opinion.
That's why they pay me the big bucks.
Michael
-
I also was at the Hasselblad boot and it was impressive. Nick explained the features of the HTS 1,5. I was very pleased to see how perfect this device works for most needed shooting scenarios. I will keep my TC but will ad the HTS to my working horses.
And for me, I could only jump as i heard about the new prices!!! Yep that's me making the jump
-
I also was at the Hasselblad boot and it was impressive. Nick explained the features of the HTS 1,5. I was very pleased to see how perfect this device works for most needed shooting scenarios. I will keep my TC but will ad the HTS to my working horses.
And for me, I could only jump as i heard about the new prices!!! Yep that's me making the jump
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225753\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Think about your bad back... this is going to cost you dearly
-
It seems to me that the price of MFDBs has long been a subject for discussion (complaint) here on Luminous landscape and I'm surprised at some of the negative comments expressed. I was especially disappointed to see Michael use the phrase "fire sale" with reference to the Hasselblad price decrease announcement.
Michael wrote:
"As consumers we all like lower prices. But what will be the cost of this to the companies that make them and who find their margins and sales drying up? Desperation is contagious."
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225722\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Michael,
No offense, but calling price cuts "desperation" is about the dumbest thing I've heard.
This isn't a temporary price drop to boost sales for the quarter at a loss.
Rather it exposes just how bloated margins are on digital backs.
Hopefully it will also end the arrogant notion that a $45,000 digital back is better than a $33,000 digital back just because it costs more....
Is it desperation that both Canon and Nikon continue to make better cameras that cost the same or less than the last version?
If Canon operated the way that MFDB makers have operated the 1DsMark3 would cost at least $16,000.
If RED operated the way that MFDB makers have operated the RED would cost at least $200,000 and come with claims about how superior it was to Panavision.
I'm a Leaf user. I frankly would have preferred to see Leaf beat Hassy to the punch. Rather than selling backs to Sinar at a discount, why not just sell them to consumers for that price?
Hasselblad's pricing is hardly "desperation."
Desperation is clinging to the notion that consumers aren't bright enough to realize that being over-charged doesn't make a product better...
-
If you've been working for 9 days on Hassy's stand, then with all due respect you are hardly in the position of an objective observer.
A 40% price drop indicates one of two things. Either it is a fire sale to win business and market share, or there has been blatant overcharging. Maybe its a bit of both, but I'm inclined to agree with Brian and run with the second option. Either way, you don't normally see 40% price reductions unless its in the US housing market...
Quentin
-
Nick already mentioned being biased
Naturally a price drop needs to be financed somewhere. Everybody is now clinging on the 40% but frankly the price drop is more moderate than that. Yeah... maybe 40% is to start with one of the products at the absolute highest suggested retail price. None of these products have been selling for that amount.
I haven't done calculations on it but it seems to be more in the range of 20-30% but there might be a thing in there that is 40% discounted not sure. To me the 40% seems a marketing slogan.
Another part where this price is financed is from dropping the trade-up program. Don't get me wrong, many people scooped up cheap backs solely for the purpose of trading up. I am quite convinced ending this program will be beneficial to both Hasselblad as well as new users. For cheap schmucks like me it is an initial bummer However on the other hand this will create a larger 2nd hand market as well for those that initial do not want to invest into new equipment. I am also pretty sure this move will expand the market for MFDB's.
Putting it down as a move out of desparation? I for one am not convinced it is, even if it is I find it a move that shows guts and a willingness to change the status quo.
-
If you've been working for 9 days on Hassy's stand, then with all due respect you are hardly in the position of an objective observer.
A 40% price drop indicates one of two things. Either it is a fire sale to win business and market share, or there has been blatant overcharging. Maybe its a bit of both, but I'm inclined to agree with Brian and run with the second option. Either way, you don't normally see 40% price reductions unless its in the US housing market...
Quentin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225758\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Was it iPod or iPhone, that they drop their prices avg 33%+/- & yet they are successful. If you were to do the actual math, than price drops are;
H3DII-31 $17,995 (was $26,995) - 33.3%
H3DII-39 $21,995 (was $33,995) - 35.3%
H3DII-50 $27,995 (was $39,995) - 30%
H3DII-60 $35,995 (New Product) -
H3DII-39MS $30,995 (was $43,995) - 29.55%
CFII-39 $19,995 (was $27,995) - 28.57%
CFII-39MS $28,995 (was $37,995) - 23.68%
Really, the most important thing is compare these prices with Phase One's prices, even though I like the Phase One ( they have the same sensor as Hasselblad), I have better things to do with my money. Also if your business model is getting loan for your equipment, then read the headlines today, credit WILL be difficult to come by in future.
-
Was it iPod or iPhone, that they drop their prices avg 33%+/- & yet they are successful. If you were to do the actual math, than price drops are;
H3DII-31 $17,995 (was $26,995) - 33.3%
H3DII-39 $21,995 (was $33,995) - 35.3%
H3DII-50 $27,995 (was $39,995) - 30%
H3DII-60 $35,995 (New Product) -
H3DII-39MS $30,995 (was $43,995) - 29.55%
CFII-39 $19,995 (was $27,995) - 28.57%
CFII-39MS $28,995 (was $37,995) - 23.68%
Really, the most important thing is compare these prices with Phase One's prices, even though I like the Phase One ( they have the same sensor as Hasselblad), I have better things to do with my money. Also if your business model is getting loan for your equipment, then read the headlines today, credit WILL be difficult to come by in future.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225763\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What you have to think about is that you can get a P45+ or a Leaf or Sinar product for the same price. There is just no real "discounts" anouncements, but ask a dealer and you perhaps will be suprised on what quotes you get. At least that is the experience I have from Germany. Nobody is paying the list price of (I think it still is) 30,000EUR for a P45+.
-
I would be very surprised if it isn't the case that, now that they have a complete system very much up and running (this wasn't the case just a few months ago. It took nearly 6 months for my 39Mp MS to arrive. Also, a few lenses in the range are very recent.) that Hasselblad are using their extremely deep pockets to flex their muscles, competitively speaking.
Don't forget who owns them!
D.
-
I haven't done calculations on it but it seems to be more in the range of 20-30% but there might be a thing in there that is 40% discounted not sure. To me the 40% seems a marketing slogan.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225761\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It obviously is somewhat of a marketing slogan as if you shop around most dealers will discount, even prior to this annoucement.
Still, from an end users standpoint I think this Hasselblad annoucement is more than just a discount, it is new think in the world of medium format digital and maybe, just maybe digital cameras will go back to being sold the way film cameras were, where you walked into a camera store and bought a camera.
No secret handshakes, no having to know who is the one or two authorized dealers in your area and probably a lot less haggeling on price and no more dealing with an upgrade system that makes it financially unattractive to keep your old back and buy a new one.
It's not just that this allows for backups but allows you to own even different backs or different cameras and backs, as you can come closer to affording to keep your current back and camera and buy a new blad without breaking the bank.
(never underestimate the need for backups).
I really dislike the upgrade system because once in, it's very expensive to make a change and if you use something like the Contax, your back down the list as to when you get your upgrade, sometimes way down the lists.
Let's face it even two h3dII-31's (did I write this correctly and if I did what a mouthfull), costs just slightly more than where one 22mpx back was a few years ago and this includes two bodies and two lens.
The only thing that would make me feel better about this is if the Hasselblad (and all the backs) would work on any camera, because with more options and lower prices medium format would grow rather than contract.
From a professional standpoint, it probably shouldn't matter what non professionals buy, but if the Hasselblad becomes more available (and given the fact the name has the bling factor) I think they will sell a lot more cameras which means more R+D for the line which means more options for the professional.
Let's be realistitic, if Canon and Nikon didin't have the consumer business to amortize their development a D3 or 1ds3 would probably be double the costs, have single point autofocus and top out at 800 iso, if they existed at all.
So I see all of this a good thing, not a negative and it might just be the slap in the face that medium format needs to become more consumer friendly.
Given all of this, I'm probably not Hasselblad's or any medium format companies target market as what I presntly use is paid for and works and until medium format gets cleaner higher iso, (if they ever do) I probably won't buy another medium format back of any brand again, but if I was starting fresh, the blad would be the first on my list.
The prices are good and the lens line is not only extensive and buyable in most markets and there are rentals of the H lenses in just about every city. Also Hasselblad has that 2.2 100mm which is perfect for about 75% of what I shoot.
The only two things I think Hasselblad should address is getting their software out faster and with more information (well, I guess this holds true for all medium format companies) and they should make the H series camera back fit on the V system because there is a lot of V-systems still in use and this would give even more usability.
Regardless of any of this, I wish them the best of success with this strategy because I think this is good for all of us.
JR
-
Yoh Nickus!
Great Blurb--too much Blad not enough Seitz--where's my report I've been waiting for?
Des
-
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=mZyWM_zpVuw&feature=related (http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=mZyWM_zpVuw&feature=related)
-
I really don't want to get sucked into this debate, but I'll add one thought.
Talk to a VAR who sells MF digital backs, and ask them about the cost of sales and support, and the margins that they need to provide these. Things aren't as simple as they might appear.
A box seller might do OK with 5-10% margin. Unless a VAR makes at least 20 points, and preferably more, they aren't going to stay in business long, and then where will you buy your back from?
And who's going to come to your studio and help out when something goes wrong, and where are you going to get a loaner when you have a raft load of expensive models and a pissed off art director breathing down your neck, and your back goes south on a Friday afternoon?
Michael
-
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=mZyWM_zpVuw&feature=related (http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=mZyWM_zpVuw&feature=related)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225787\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Every time I see the H-series it just blows my mind how Hasselblad could make such an ugly camera, especially looking at their elegant heritage. Ok, bring on the flames
-
A box seller might do OK with 5-10% margin. Unless a VAR makes at least 20 points, and preferably more, they aren't going to stay in business long, and then where will you buy your back from?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225793\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Who says Hasselblad's dealers aren't making 20%?
Nick-T
-
I really don't want to get sucked into this debate, but I'll add one thought.
Talk to a VAR who sells MF digital backs, and ask them about the cost of sales and support, and the margins that they need to provide these. Things aren't as simple as they might appear.
A box seller might do OK with 5-10% margin. Unless a VAR makes at least 20 points, and preferably more, they aren't going to stay in business long, and then where will you buy your back from?
And who's going to come to your studio and help out when something goes wrong, and where are you going to get a loaner when you have a raft load of expensive models and a pissed off art director breathing down your neck, and your back goes south on a Friday afternoon?
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225793\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Michael,
With all due respect I'm not against the dealer system, though if a photographer has their s^%t together they should have backups and know what to do.
From the professional side, especially in the large markets, a lot of photographers have moved into the world of not really knowing their equipment, (not just cameras) and rely on a room full of "specialists" to do everything.
Some of that is good, though regardless of anyone's personal business system, I think it's almost lazy that a photograher doesn't know how to work a digital camera and the software.
To begin with they are much easier than before. Even ol' 3.78 with Phase is pretty much a plug and play system once you've spent a day learning the software.
Now as far as my system, I invest in my business including equipment. From a lot of photographers I've been told for years this is foolish as the thought is rent it and "let the client pay for it", which is fine, I guess as long as the market is strong.
In the challanged times we have now, that becomes more difficult and surely less profitable for the photogrpaher.
For years I've had a system where every large project I buy something, maybe lights, maybe rollers, maybe a lens or a camera body but I buy it and roll it into the produciton.
Today the budgets I see from clients are still good, but very bottom line based and if you own your own equipment (and know how to work it) your in a much more competiitive and profitable situation.
As far as dealers and their tech help, well some are good, some are not so good, but the loaner system just doesn't work under large production. After all who has a day to wait for a backup or even 4 hours.
Once again I appreciate the good dealers like Capture Integration and PPR and even Karen at Samys, (I am sure there are many others), but I can promise you if my Phase backs go down and whether I'm shooting in a studio in culver city or El Mirage they are not going to get me a camera in 30 minutes probably not in a day, especially in a Contax mount.
If you have your own backups and know your s*&t, you don't have a room full of pissed off art directors or models standing around talking on thier cell phones.
Still my way (and I'm not sayng my way is the best way, its just the way that works for me) is to know how to use what I own and though I hire gaffers, grip, assistants, swings, etc. I would not be comfortable not knowing how to do the artistic and technical aspects of my job.
As far as learning these systems go, if someone can't go on the web, download or read a few turtorials (yours included) and not learn how to work this stuff, then why become a photographer in the first place?
I commend Hasselblad's price system and hope it continues. It will put more pressure on the makers to make the euqipment eaiser to work, easier to own and allow the photogrpaher affordable backups.
In fact from your business model, I would think the more people that own equipment, the more market you have to sell your instructional videos. If there were 25,000 hasselblad, or phase users you could turn out videos on how to work those systems.
JR
-
I really don't want to get sucked into this debate, but I'll add one thought.......
.......And who's going to come to your studio and help out when something goes wrong, and where are you going to get a loaner when you have a raft load of expensive models and a pissed off art director breathing down your neck, and your back goes south on a Friday afternoon?
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225793\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Now I heard it all. Because of your "sky is falling" rhetoric, we the hard working photographers should pay automatically extra money to Phase, because they charge us more, that means they MUST be able to service the back better than Hasselblad, who makes the backs, the cameras, full line of lenses. Really you should read your own diatribe. You really do so well in so..o many other aspect of photography, as J.Russell aptly pointed it, so why,...why?
-
Dear Michael,
This is what ruins your website for me. You clearly are biased, it is obvious to many, and what's worse is that it's essentially over how much Hasselblad is charging!
So, if you want to keep the integrity of your forum, unbiased as it should be, then cut it out and be honest with yourself: you expected the royal treatment from Hasselblad - free or discounted upgrades, etc... and Phase gave it to you instead and now you bitch and complain that you did not get it from Hasselblad. You paint Hasselblad in a negative light every chance you get.
I wouldn't care to say this to anyone else, but someone has to tell you what I am saying: your bias really turns some people off—it is not like you—meaning your other articles have a level of honesty I appreciate, except when it comes to Hasselblad.
You’ve worked hard to create a great website, don’t ruin it—and that’s not just my opinion. But how you run your forum is up to you, I'm only saying this in the hopes you could improve.
If you continue to be angry over cost, cloaked in the notion that you are “telling it like it is,” then people will move to other forums, like Nick’s or elsewhere, where they get an unbiased perspective.
You’re a big boy; I think you can take the reality in this entire post. Time to get a grip and move on. Let it go.
Kind regards,
Derek Jecxz
www.jecxz.com
-
I really don't want to get sucked into this debate, but I'll add one thought.
Talk to a VAR who sells MF digital backs, and ask them about the cost of sales and support, and the margins that they need to provide these. Things aren't as simple as they might appear.
A box seller might do OK with 5-10% margin. Unless a VAR makes at least 20 points, and preferably more, they aren't going to stay in business long, and then where will you buy your back from?
And who's going to come to your studio and help out when something goes wrong, and where are you going to get a loaner when you have a raft load of expensive models and a pissed off art director breathing down your neck, and your back goes south on a Friday afternoon?
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225793\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The issue you raise above is a fair one, but it is totally out of line to assert that Hasselblad acted out of "desperation" or was running a "fire sale". You know the import of those words, and I would just add that (i) you do not know what Hasselblad's sales, cash flow and recovery of R&D costs look like, (ii) Hasselblad's introduction of new products appears to reflect a confidence about the future, not a sense of desperation, and (iii) maybe Hasselblad has actually listened to all of the complaints on this board over the years about the exorbitant cost of MFDBs compared to high MP offerings from Canon, Nikon and now Sony and concluded that Hasselblad had to and COULD do something to narrow that price gap. To be candid, if it had been Phase rather than Hasselblad that cut prices so dramatically, they would probably have received the LL Good Guy Award for 2008 and nobody would have been questioning their motives.
Lost in all of this is that Hasselblad is uniquely positioned to dramatically cut prices because it is the only medium format digital player that is an integrated manufacturer of the cameras and the backs. The prices charged for Phase/Mamiya cameras and lenses have to provide a profit to two companies. Sinar's Hy6 has to provide a profit to F&H and Sinar. Same with Leaf's AFI. In fact, with the new AFI 10 type camera that Sinar will sell, there are three companies with a hand in the till demanding a piece of the action.
-
Michael,
To further hcubell's point, what you probably don't want to acknowledge is that while Hasselblad has all the R&D costs of body / viewfinder / firmware / battery / integration design / testing / trouble shooting / engineering costs / software / etc..., they don't make all the profits when you buy a different company's back. This is a straight loss for them.
Hasselblad finally said enough, they're spending the most while they're supporting all the others, keeping to open standards they don't profit from - they woke up and shut the free ride down.
Had they not, reality is, they'd probably not have any new products, or worse, they'd be out of business and we'd all be screwed.
But you just complain when it all boils down to you wanting a discount or free ride. All this costs a great deal of money to develop--they deserve to make the most profit from it.
I know this makes sense to you, I just hope you open your eyes to it finally.
Derek
-
It obviously is somewhat of a marketing slogan as if you shop around most dealers will discount, even prior to this annoucement.
Still, from an end users standpoint I think this Hasselblad annoucement is more than just a discount, it is new think in the world of medium format digital and maybe, just maybe digital cameras will go back to being sold the way film cameras were, where you walked into a camera store and bought a camera.
No secret handshakes, no having to know who is the one or two authorized dealers in your area and probably a lot less haggeling on price and no more dealing with an upgrade system that makes it financially unattractive to keep your old back and buy a new one.
It's not just that this allows for backups but allows you to own even different backs or different cameras and backs, as you can come closer to affording to keep your current back and camera and buy a new blad without breaking the bank.
(never underestimate the need for backups).
I really dislike the upgrade system because once in, it's very expensive to make a change and if you use something like the Contax, your back down the list as to when you get your upgrade, sometimes way down the lists.
Let's face it even two h3dII-31's (did I write this correctly and if I did what a mouthfull), costs just slightly more than where one 22mpx back was a few years ago and this includes two bodies and two lens.
The only thing that would make me feel better about this is if the Hasselblad (and all the backs) would work on any camera, because with more options and lower prices medium format would grow rather than contract.
From a professional standpoint, it probably shouldn't matter what non professionals buy, but if the Hasselblad becomes more available (and given the fact the name has the bling factor) I think they will sell a lot more cameras which means more R+D for the line which means more options for the professional.
Let's be realistitic, if Canon and Nikon didin't have the consumer business to amortize their development a D3 or 1ds3 would probably be double the costs, have single point autofocus and top out at 800 iso, if they existed at all.
So I see all of this a good thing, not a negative and it might just be the slap in the face that medium format needs to become more consumer friendly.
Given all of this, I'm probably not Hasselblad's or any medium format companies target market as what I presntly use is paid for and works and until medium format gets cleaner higher iso, (if they ever do) I probably won't buy another medium format back of any brand again, but if I was starting fresh, the blad would be the first on my list.
The prices are good and the lens line is not only extensive and buyable in most markets and there are rentals of the H lenses in just about every city. Also Hasselblad has that 2.2 100mm which is perfect for about 75% of what I shoot.
The only two things I think Hasselblad should address is getting their software out faster and with more information (well, I guess this holds true for all medium format companies) and they should make the H series camera back fit on the V system because there is a lot of V-systems still in use and this would give even more usability.
Regardless of any of this, I wish them the best of success with this strategy because I think this is good for all of us.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225774\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You have exactly said what I meant to say only much clearer
-
hasselblad has made some decisions in the last couple of years that have made some people (even some owners) pretty upset, by closing their system they have put themselves up against all other MF companies...maybe they were just a couple of years ahead and smelled the end early and made their drastic decision based on how they thought it would all turn out.....
i don't think anyone is really upset with a healthy price competition, free markets drive prices down which in turn should be great for the consumer....
BUT slashing prices to corner the market or simply drive the competition into the ground only means good news in the short run.....hasselblads price drop either means they are desperate or they (and really all the others) have completely overcharged for their product...either way this is NOT good for the market in the long run....
of course price is a major buying factor, but it is not the only one and if i was buying right now, i would still not go with hasselblad and in the big picture (a complete kit) 2, 3 or even 4000$ more or less would not make a difference to me in deciding which camera i will work with every day for the next couple of years.....
if price is an issue, wait fo rthe 5Dii
-
Dear Howard,
I wanted actually to keep out of this discussion, but am forced in it by your remarks below. It is a little more complicated than presented here. Many other factors do have an influence on price. You don't have any idea about the real costs and margins of such cameras, nor do you have an idea about the costs and margins of digital backs. Jumping that quickly to the conclusion that a Sinar Hy6 camera is automatically more expensive because there are 2 companies involved in its manufacturing and marketing is going a bit fast. In fact you should compare the price of an Hy6 with standard lens with any other brand and you would see that it is not true.
Concerning the AFi 10, it is the same: you don't have any idea or what prices will be, nor what margins those backs will carry. Let's wait and see what the prices for this new 56 MPx digital back will be, being it with the Leaf or with the Sinar name.
Best regards,
Thierry
PS:
- you are certainly right when saying that everybody has to earn some money out of the business.
- there are only 2 (not 3) companies "having a hand in it".
... Sinar's Hy6 has to provide a profit to F&H and Sinar. Same with Leaf's AFI. In fact, with the new AFI 10 type camera that Sinar will sell, there are three companies with a hand in the till demanding a piece of the action.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225814\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
.....hasselblads price drop either means they are desperate or they (and really all the others) have completely overcharged for their product...either way this is NOT good for the market in the long run....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225820\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
More probably, both of the above are true.
The cameras themselves, and their lenses should be no more expensive to make than the old film MF cameras. Please don't dispute this, the Mamiya and the Contax *are* old MF cameras, and they work decently with digibacks.
Hence the price of the MF digitals was initially due to sensor costs which have now fallen considerably.
Hasselblad are smart, they are passing on the savings to the consumer. In fact it is fascinating to watch how hard they work to obsolete their own product.
Edmund
-
all I can say is that I am very very happy that hasselblad dropped their prices.
given the chance to start all over again I would probably go with a hasselblad.
Hopefully the other camera manufacturers buck up on this
Imagine if hasselblad came up with a V style H camera! doing everything the Hy6/AFi can do,using their H lenses.
-
hasselblads price drop either means they are desperate or they (and really all the others) have completely overcharged for their product...either way this is NOT good for the market in the long run....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225820\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Huh???
Everything digital gets better AND CHEAPER over time.
Until now, MFDBs were the exception.
This can only be GOOD for the market.
And it's about time.
-
Huh???
Everything digital gets better AND CHEAPER over time.
Until now, MFDBs were the exception.
This can only be GOOD for the market.
And it's about time.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225831\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
my sentiments exactly
If the MFDB makers can't get it right at a good price, don't worry, sooner or later canon or nikon will foray into that megapixel range, or they will release a new lens/camera system.
The joys of japanese competition.
-
my sentiments exactly
If the MFDB makers can't get it right at a good price, don't worry, sooner or later canon or nikon will foray into that megapixel range, or they will release a new lens/camera system.
The joys of japanese competition.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225832\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
We are close to the point, if we are not already there, where clients just see digital capture as it's all good and professional. Nobody usually mentions file sizes, or dr or anything like that.
Color, stability of software, lack of artifacts or moire can be mentioned, but I haven't had a conversation with a client about the file size or brand/make of a digital camera in a long long time.
I also think that we are close to the leveling of the brands.
When I bought my Phase backs, (for my style of work and workflow) I believe they were better than anything else and maybe in some areas still have advantage for me, (once again depending on what you shoot), but not having worked a new Hasselblad or Leaf or Sinar I can't say that one is actually better than the other, though from what I hear and read, they all seem pretty close.
The point of all this is I like the idea of buy it, learn it, use it, sell it if something better comes along, or buy the next one just because it has a different look in the file or the glass or the camera operation.
I see nothing about that sceanrio that limits medium format, in fact I think it will grow the format.
I have Nikons, Canons, Leica and Phase and switch between them all the time, sometimes on the same project, sometimes because each one (and the lenses) will give me a different look.
Michael does that, so do many other photographers. Nothing new about owning different systems, even in the same format.
Lower prices makes this easier to do.
JR
-
my sentiments exactly
If the MFDB makers can't get it right at a good price, don't worry, sooner or later canon or nikon will foray into that megapixel range, or they will release a new lens/camera system.
The joys of japanese competition.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225832\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ditto, as ultimately we & the clients will ask, Nikon/Canon gives me comparable pixels/clarity, while MF gives me that illusive look that everyone is talking @, but will my market can really appreciate or even notice it? So why should I pay for it.
Look at the enormous bells & whistles PS CS4 is bringing, with blending of the focus,.... so a simple camera will do.
I say, Halleluah! that I have lived long enough to see the price drop for MF camera & never mind that there is someone proclaiming & holding "The end is near" banner.
-
Michael,
With all due respect I'm not against the dealer system, though if a photographer has their s^%t together they should have backups and know what to do.
From the professional side, especially in the large markets, a lot of photographers have moved into the world of not really knowing their equipment, (not just cameras) and rely on a room full of "specialists" to do everything.
This is exactly why I commend 'blad for doing what they've done... that is to begin to simplify the needs of the photographer in respect to support networks via the possibility of actually owning your own backup (through lower pricing). Right now it's all stupidly excessive.
I'm an architect, and I can tell you that the "room full of specialists" has caused considerable problems in the design field when not managed well... namely bloat. Engineers and consultants are very important... and I liken the digital tech/rental house to them... but in the end if one isn't careful, you end up being the "trigger puller" and not much more. The tech sets up the camera, the tech sets up the tether, the tech does this, the tech does that... the tech/rental house has the backup equipment... and on it goes.
.. the art director rules the concept, so what are we photographers left doing? Executing.
Shit, I show up to a wedding with everything (35mm) in at least duplicate... so why should having a backup for the mf shooter be so tied to a "support network".
If lower prices mean that we as photographers are actually able to buy our own backups and run the show with peace of mind, then the "boat anchor" effect of all the peripheral personnel (tech/rental house/VA Reseller, to name a few) needed to run a MF digital shoot will be lightened considerably... especially on location.
Why worry that Mr. xxxxxxx (VA Reseller) is even available on a friday night at the big shoot when your cam goes down, when you can just walk over to the pelican case and pick your backup up and start shooting again?
-
I dont chime in often, but today I feel compelled to get onto the field from the sidelines. I am neither a big fan nor a hater of Michael. But, I do appreciate his site as one of the few places on the web that provides such a wealth of information through both the LL site and these forums. Many voices are heard about the industry and I think that in the "dark" world of MFD it is very much welcomed. However, It is HIS site, and he can feel free just as the NYT or any other outlet to Call it as he sees it. Period. I hold a similar opinion to him in that I don't like what Hasselblad has done. The truth is that even with the Intro of the HY6 and the "New" Phamiya the H1/2 is still the best overall camera for a Digital back. A Leaf rep some time before Hass "closed" the H system told me that 85% of their backs were made for the H. As much as I like the H Camera (and its not without many faults) I very much Dislike their backs. Granted I haven't seen the newest toys in action, but the package of software (phocus sucks) and back are still fall far behind Phase. So for many people be they leaf, or phase etc, the thought of New lenses and bodies not working with their "H" back is disheartening. But we've gone through all of this before. No, a bigger issue is at hand. Right now MFD reminds me of the Drum Scanner market right before its demise. There was some vibrance in the Drum industry (as there is now in MFD) and then it was gone. I dont think a single drum company exist today. Imacon (Hass) came in with its Virtual Drum (CCD not real PMT drum tech) and huge flat beds invaded the market. They did more for less and where much easier to live with. Were/are they better than a drum. No. Now there are still many very old drum scanners doing their job, but they are breed that nears extinction. To me this Photokina marks the begging of the end. Lets look at the facts: Canon obsoleted its 1dsIII in LESS than a year (anybody want to buy mine?) with a camera that cost a fraction (5d2) and that THEY claim is superior in image quality. Amazing. More amazing the 1ds3 has quality if shot under the right conditions that rivals or exceeds the big boys. Is it better in IQ? No. But guess what: neither were the big flat bed scanners or virtual drums, but they killed the Drum. The 5d2 and the 1ds4 which will most likely come out next year will seal the deal, and HD video will be the icing. I promise. 3 years on from 39mp and the best we have 60mp? Sure frame rates seem great, little better hi iso (surely no match for Canon) and a little better LCD? But that is it? And, they are asking the same or more money. The P30 P21 and 45's of the world lumber on with no improvement or replacement. No innovation. Now talk of RED making the ultimate combo cam next year. I have talked with 4 owners of P45's and not one has a desire to upgrade at the going rate. These are shooters at the top of their fields. None of their demanding clients has asked for bigger files. To me the lower price is a preemptive strike on the next round of Canon and Nikon. If the rumors are even half true of what is in the pipe from Japan then the end is near for MFD unless the do more than drop prices a bit and add MP....
-
Dear Howard,
I wanted actually to keep out of this discussion, but am forced in it by your remarks below. It is a little more complicated than presented here. Many other factors do have an influence on price. You don't have any idea about the real costs and margins of such cameras, nor do you have an idea about the costs and margins of digital backs. Jumping that quickly to the conclusion that a Sinar Hy6 camera is automatically more expensive because there are 2 companies involved in its manufacturing and marketing is going a bit fast. In fact you should compare the price of an Hy6 with standard lens with any other brand and you would see that it is not true.
Concerning the AFi 10, it is the same: you don't have any idea or what prices will be, nor what margins those backs will carry. Let's wait and see what the prices for this new 56 MPx digital back will be, being it with the Leaf or with the Sinar name.
Best regards,
Thierry
PS:
- you are certainly right when saying that everybody has to earn some money out of the business.
- there are only 2 (not 3) companies "having a hand in it".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225821\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You are correct, Thierry, I do not have any financial data as to the internal costs and profit margins of the MFDB players. However, simple financial logic leads me to the conclusion that the more players in the manufacturing/distribution chain, each of whom is demanding its own nice profit margin, the higher the ultimate selling price to the consumer. No doubt there are other reasons for differences in the ultimate selling price, but vertical integration does tend to reduce prices(assuming no monopoly, and the only player that has ever been even close to a monopoly is Phase One).
The price in the US for a H3DII-39 with a 90 deg. finder and 80mm lens is now $22,000. What is the price of a Hy6 with a 90 degree finder, 80mm lens, with and without the revolving adapter?
In the case of the Sinar version of the Hy6 with the AFI 10 back, are there not three players that will be looking for a profit on the product, F&H, Leaf and Sinar?
Best regards, Howard
-
Howard,
no, F&H is not part of the Leaf - Sinar partnership: putting any back on the camera will not change the price of the Hy6 camera body. But I understand what you mean: a Hy6 "standalone" (analog) does not cost more than a H camera body standalone, even if F&H is partner for the Hy6 camera body.
As for the Sinar Hy6 - e75 LV, the recommended list price is Euro 24'300.-, without trade-in/upgrade, which usually is about Euro 5'000.-to 7'000.-, depending on the back traded-in, currently.
Best regards,
Thierry
In the case of the Sinar version of the Hy6 with the AFI 10 back, are there not three players that will be looking for a profit on the product, F&H, Leaf and Sinar?
Best regards, Howard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225855\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Dealer Support is overrated imho.......do you need support for that 1DS??? if you know your equip like james said 9 times out of 10 you will not need it. if I have a question i'm coming to this forum or somewhere similar on the web to get an answer from real-life users.......if i need something last minute i'm probably calling fotocare or trec or similar rental....places that are used to dealing with such or i'm smart enough to be prepared and i already have a 1ds or 2nd back as backup(or 5dII now)....or god forbid an rz and some 120. duh!
i think what hassy is doing is rad.....they are competing w/ canon....everyone complains about MFDB not being easy, costing too much, voodoo pricing, etc.... hassy is solving all of those problems and people are still complaining about them doing it....the only question mark i really see with them is phocus..
if i actually enjoyed using the h series as a cam i'd be lookin pretty hard at an h3d but ergonomics on that thing are horrendous if you wanna shoot all day long hand holding especially vertical, honestly my preference is still towards a v mount back that I can swap between my rz and 500cm..... that rz and 500 are like my babies.....if leafs new screen is good enough i think i'll be going that route otherwise, used aptus 22 or 54s here i come....for under 10k mind you. i used to think phase cause of stability and C1 but that puny screen in the field...no way.
I think phase is being left in the dust personally, they have not done anything lately to improve usability in terms of physically interacting w/ the back...and c1 4pro is how late??..still waiting on leaf shutter lenses......sinar and leaf both updated lcds' added the ability of rotation, etc...... that is what's going to sell me on a back at this point b/c those canons are just tooooooo easy....make your back as easy and stable to use as those canon's and you will have a ton of sales imho regardless of price.
-
Howard,
As for the Sinar Hy6 - e75 LV, the recommended list price is Euro 24'300.-, without trade-in/upgrade, which usually is about Euro 5'000.-to 7'000.-, depending on the back traded-in, currently.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225861\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
On the Calumet Photo website, the Sinar Hy6 75R is listed at US $38,000. Say the 90 deg. finder is $1,500. All in, the price is US $ 39,500. The Hasselblad H3DII-39 is US 22,000. That seems to me to be a pretty steep price difference.
-
.....if leafs new screen is good enough i think i'll be going that route otherwise, used aptus 22 or 54s here i come....for under 10k mind you.
And LC v.11.2 is ready for you now..
David
-
Hassy has been going for a different business model for years now. You can easily buy a H3D from ebay or B&H photo just like you buy a Nikon D3. That doesn't come with VAR on-site support.
What they are doing is great IMHO, they are giving photographers who can handle these aspects themselves an option to just buy a camera at a (slightly more) decent price. If you need support, I am sure that there are companies out there that will be able to help you, just like they are able to help Canan 1ds3 users who might need some help. Now I agree with James, photography isn't rocket science. If you cannot use a back by yourself, then change job or use better designed equipment.
As far as reliability is concerned, the key thing for the busy pro is the ownership of a credible back up or the available of a rental solution.
1. Back up: I would have a very hard time believing anybody telling me that a Canon 1ds3 system is not a credible back up. Everybody has one anyway for those kind of shooting where the backs are too slow,... and the quality gap is small enough that covering one assignement with one would not damage your reputation.
Besides, if you really need a backup of the same make as the original, then a 20.000 US$ H3DII39 will be a lot easier to buy than a 30.000 US$ P45+.
2. Rental: there will be more rental available out there if the piece of gear is cheap(er). Hassy is also making it easier for rental companies to stock these cameras. But in the end, large urban centers will keep having rental available while smaller cities won't. You see more Ferraris in Manhatan than in Mineapolis, and that is the same reason why you will keep seeing more H3D39 in NY than in Minnesota. The Hassy price cut will not change this either way.
All in all, I am not sure to see the problem with the move of Hassy. They are just choosing a different direction away from the dealer model. Mamiya had done it before them, they are just showing the obvious, the same model can be adopted for higher end gear too. IMHO, they still haven't gone far enough in terms of price cut, but they will need one or two more generations to really reach the 15.000 - 20.000 US$ level for the most expensive of their offerings. This is not going to stop here.
I have been saying for years that the only solution for MFDB makers is to sell 4 times more backs at half the price, it would seem that Hassy is now seeing things the same way.
It is obvious that the value of a product is driven by the differentiation with the competition as far as their abilities to perform the tasks needed by the customer. The value of MFDB is less now than 2 years ago because the 1ds3/5dII/A900 can now handle many of the applications only MFDB could handle before. What Hassy is doing here is a logical price reduction following on the lowering of the absolute value of their offering relative to the needs of photographers.
Phaseone one doesn't have to follow. If there is real value in their VAR model, then they will keep their customers. If the VAR model was just seen by their customers as a mandatory expenditures they didn't really care for, then Phaseone will have hard times ahead. The Phaseone products might also be better, which could also justify the added price for those people needing the absolute best.
I believe that Hassy has chosen the right option though, but time will tell.
Anyway, let's re-discuss all this after November 8th. The Nikon moves might influence this discussion more than anything else. A 10.000 US$ 40MP Nikon MX would still make all these backs look very over-priced, even after the Hassy price cuts.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
On the Calumet Photo website, the Sinar Hy6 75R is listed at US $38,000. Say the 90 deg. finder is $1,500. All in, the price is US $ 39,500. The Hasselblad H3DII-39 is US 22,000. That seems to me to be a pretty steep price difference.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225869\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And remember that the Sinar has a 33MP array and the Hassie has 39MP. Many folks believe more is better when it comes to MP - not going to start that discussion here BUT it does count in my decision.
In short, both Leaf and Sinar will have a tough time unless they get on the same "cost of ownership" page Hasselblad has now written. My hats off to Hasselblad for taking this major step, regardless of their "motives" as discussed in this thread.
-
To follow up on Bernard's points, and forgive me if it's been said already, dealers sell next day swap protection / backup for a few thousand bucks / year (you pay shipping).
When I moved to H3DII39 I was offered this option, which was a next day swap service, of an H3DII39 from my dealer.
I think there was a similar plan for a Leaf body/back if I went with Leaf.
When I looked at Phase, I think there was a similar plan too.
For Michael to suggest this exists without payment is out of touch just a bit, probably because he gets so much from Phase or others for free or discounted – as he very well should! That's not my point; I (we) don't have that option! We have to buy a backup body - as said better by others in this thread - or pay for a swap service.
Fotocare in NYC or B&H or Calumet is not going to give me, for free, an H3DII39 to use while Hasselblad repairs mine, no matter their profit margins!
FYI: I said no to the swap service - when you're in Labrador or Hay River, this is not an option.
Lastly, because people have emailed me privately, Nick's website is:
http://www.hasselbladdigitalforum.com/index.php (http://www.hasselbladdigitalforum.com/index.php)
And this is not said to diminish LL whatsoever. Be well.
-
For Michael to suggest this exists without payment is out of touch just a bit, probably because he gets so much from Phase or others for free or discounted – as he very well should!
Wrong!
With the exception of pre-release test samples, which are always promptly returned, I buy everything I use and test at retail. I receive nothing for free and wouldn't accept it if it was offered.
The only exception is printers, which I accept for long term testing, and which if not taken back by the manufacturer are then donated, usually to a school or student, because manufacturers usually don't want them back.
So please – don't assume.
Michael
-
>Shit, I show up to a wedding with everything (35mm) in at least duplicate... so why should having a backup for the mf shooter be so tied to a "support network".
>Why worry that Mr. xxxxxxx (VA Reseller) is even available on a friday night at the big shoot when your cam goes down, when you can just walk over to the pelican case and pick your backup up and start shooting again?
>i think what hassy is doing is rad.....they are competing w/ canon....everyone complains about MFDB not being easy, costing too much, voodoo pricing, etc.... hassy is solving all of those problems and people are still complaining about them doing it....the only question mark i really see with them is phocus
=====================
i agree wholeheartedly with the above statements. I think on forums like these people spend too much time analyzing the marketing decisions of these companies, and not enough time thinking about actually getting the job done. I mean, are there real photographers who are actually upset with falling prices on backs?!?!? This is what everyone has been asking for for years. no? Now you can own (not rent) your main camera, now you can own a backup - no need for the bat cave phone number on friday night panic, etc. etc.
OR, maybe the rental prices will come down from astronomical for a day's shoot! That would be nice, huh?
Anyway, I.M.O. loaners and rentals are always scary in the middle of a shoot anyway, because who knows if the loaner is working correctly/chip is clean/firewire port was not messed up during the previous loan/etc.
I belive in owning what you shoot, and these price reductions will provide a real in for a lot of people.
-
Wrong!
With the exception of pre-release test samples, which are always promptly returned, I buy everything I use and test at retail. I receive nothing for free and wouldn't accept it if it was offered.
The only exception is printers, which I accept for long term testing, and which if not taken back by the manufacturer are then donated, usually to a school or student, because manufacturers usually don't want them back.
So please – don't assume.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225904\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The best way to learn about someone is to talk to them and though I'm sure Michael doesn't want 2000 phone calls, I can tell you from my personal experience, Michael has always been upfront and fair. In fact, though I don't know Michael as a close friend, I do believe he's as honest and straightforward as anyone I've spoken with.
I've disagreed with him in the past, both privately and publicly but that's fine . . that's what keeps life interesting and let's all remember these are just cameras, nothing that gets close to life and death decisions.
Yes, he is opinionated and stands by what he believes, who isn't and for that matter we all don't have to agree. Gawd, what a boring world if we all agreed and quite honestly I appreciate people that take a stance, whether I like it or not.
I do know that when I wrote the first draft on the Phase One ad I shot in Paris, Michael was very clear that it should not be written as a puff peace, be balanced and that it should have a warts and all direction, which I tried to give it, mostly at my expense.
As far as liking or not liking Hasselblad, I love the price cuts, never was wild about closing off the system, but that's from a consumer standpoint.
On the flip side of the coin I wouldn't want to parcel out my business where others could make as much or more profit from my work than I do, so regardless of what Hasselblad did or didn't do, in many ways I can understand it.
JR
-
Wrong!
With the exception of pre-release test samples, which are always promptly returned, I buy everything I use and test at retail. I receive nothing for free and wouldn't accept it if it was offered.
The only exception is printers, which I accept for long term testing, and which if not taken back by the manufacturer are then donated, usually to a school or student, because manufacturers usually don't want them back.
So please – don't assume.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225904\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
For the service you provide with this site and to us and the public, I did assume, and it is retracted. There would be nothing wrong with it either; your honesty in your articles / reviews has always been clear.
But my response was specifically to your statement earlier:
"And who's going to come to your studio and help out when something goes wrong, and where are you going to get a loaner when you have a raft load of expensive models..."
When you need a loaner, do you pay or get it for free? I would understand if you got one for free - my whole point was most can't. And if you have to pay for a loaner, then I misunderstood the context of your phrase "get a loaner" - and again, of course, I take it back.
Kind regards,
Derek
-
I think the prices will go even lower. Blad is a savvy company. They see the writing on the wall and are acting accordingly. Their products are really solid now. I'm not a fan of a closed system but, if the prices come down some more, you could buy an H3 AND a stand alone Blad back with an adapter plate to fit whatever other odd camera you may have. This way you would have a back up and a back that would fit that RZ or 680 in the closet. This should also kill the stupid high used prices.
Its time for some consolidation in the industry so that they can shake out the inefficiencies in their operations, take advantage of economies of scale, and turn these things into top end commodities. I think Phase will be the odd man out. I say this because they don't have a really attractive camera. The AFD3 is OK, but, and not to make any Sarah Palin reference, its like putting lipstick on a pig and charging a premium for it. Like dropping a 911 engine into a bug, or the somewhat pathetic Porsche 914. The new reality is that the focus is moving away from the Back as a discrete unit and towards the camera/back as a unified unit. Perhaps the AFD4 will be a real high end product that will attract buyers, but there is a serious let down moving from a Hy6 to an AFd3, or, to a lesser degree, from an H3D to an AFD3.
The thing about dealer service is this: If a product needs lots of support and swap outs all the time, I don't want such a product. Be it a car, a camera, an espresso maker, a printer, what ever. If the product is either unreliable, has electronic bugs, is badly engineered, prone to failure etc., it is not a professional tool. I don't think the backs fall into this category.
How many of you have had a failure? I had an old AFd crap out on me. The Leaf back worked just fine. My Phase back was rock solid, never a problem that couldn't have been worked out on my own. So where is this value in a dealer network? I'd rather have two backs at lower prices than a HOTLINE number and the promise of a FEDEX replacement the next day, if a loaner is even available.
I do believe in owning my gear, if its affordable. A value proposition must be made. I would like a Briese Focus 77 and a 220, but I don't think its worth upwards of $35k for two light modifiers. So renting makes sense. Same thing with backs that cost upwards of $40k. Renting makes sense. I am planning on picking up a used Aptus 54 or Sinar 54 when I find one real cheap. Until then, I'll rent the best and the brightest on someone else's dime.
These things should be commodities like the Canons and Nikons.
-
Competition is good. H3D price drop is good.
I notice Hasselblad accessories and lens price is increasing.
-
i don't think anyone is complaining that the prices are coming down unless this drives competition out of the market only to raise prices again afterwards....you might have heard of a little store which uses this quite a lot...walmart?
i am not comparing hasselblad to walmart and i really hope (i am assuming) that the others can follow that course...at which point the question remains: did we totally overpay for our backs 12 months ago?
the reality looks different anyway: even if a H3D31 is 15000 or 14000 or 13000....the 5DII is 3000 and shoots HD video as well....yes there is a difference BUT....
canon/nikon will come out with a larger sensor system within a year (i have no proof of that but i am just throwing that out there because everything point in that direction and it just makes sense)...they will keep the price lower then anything hasselblad can even come close to and they will provide the quality DMF has now and all the features and goodies DSLRs have now......that is the real reason hasselblad wants to get a few more customers NOW...
-
Indeed, what is all this moaning about lowering prices? As an example, the Nikon D700 started at 2700euro 2 months ago. I can now pick up one at 2100euros. This is just one example but these kind of price cuts we all take for normal.
Hasselblad still has a network of dealers. I actually got my 2nd back from a dealer. My first back was bought in the US. I recently had to have that repaired (my first failure in 6years, so yes MFDB's can break down). The repair was handled by Hasselblad directly, communication via the US and shipping directly to and from Denmark. Hasselblad is totally willing to help out their own customers with or without dealer. At least they were in my case, I assume others will receive the same kind of treatment.
I have been complaining about having to go through unnecessary dealers for years, where I believe some are only adding to the cost without adding value. Mind you that is in my case! I do carry backup backs, I don't need an overnight replacement. I don't need help with software or hardware (I used to own my own software & hardware companies), I want to have a company that takes my email when I need help, I need an adress where I can ship, hand out my CC number and get the stuff back when repaired. Hasselblad was willing to supply me with this. They did tell me right from the start I have to deal with them and could not expect a dealer to handle any problems for free. This is clear and only fair. Kudos to them is my opinion.
My 2nd back I got (actually will be getting) from a dealer. This dealer really did provide me with extra service making it interesting to me to become their client.
I am not advocating to abandon the dealer system, I want an alternative for those that don't need or want a dealer. There are too many times a dealer is simply just an obstacle, I have experienced this first hand. I can only hope other MFDB manufacturers will follow. This will also be beneficial to those dealers that are a real asset, it will separate the wheat from the chaff.
I don't believe this price cut is under cost price, I do believe Hasselblad as well as dealers will still be making a healthy margin. If not, I think this is a ridiculous move since I am sure this will win customers but I doubt it will create a monopoly by driving out the competition. Only the future will tell.
All of this is my own opinion naturally.
-
A couple of points:
There is absolutely no suggestion that Hasselblad is doing away with the VAR system, I'm not sure where that has come from. Removing the upgrade matrix means life will be a great deal less complicated/profitable for dealers and obviously cheaper for users.
Second, and unrelated to pricing, I see that "closed system" has popped up a few times yet again in this thread. Working on the stand I spent a great deal of time showing people the benefits of an integrated system, the Hasselblad DAC corrections are really quite amazing and work with the HTS, completely unique AFAIK.
Nick-T
-
There is absolutely no suggestion that Hasselblad is doing away with the VAR system, I'm not sure where that has come from. Removing the upgrade matrix means life will be a great deal less complicated/profitable for dealers and obviously cheaper for users.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225975\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I probably wasn't clear enough. I just meant that it had been possible for some time to buy a H3D through normal re-selles like B&H who are not VAR, this differs from what other MFDB do, doesn't it?
Regards,
Bernard
-
Jeff,
I accept that there is sense in what you say. But the reality is that the dealer system,( yes, the dealers in Atllanta are worth doing business with, but quite a few others are not) , lack of transparent pricing with stange upgrades, elitist attitudes, bad quality control, and refusal to keep the product cutting edge are squeezing the MF guys.
Hasselblad have taken a way out by using normal photo dealers - eg B&H in New York, having a clear pricing structure with PRICELISTS, creating a healthy used market by dropping the upgrades, and have revved their bodies at a huge rate with minor upgrades, H1, H2, H3 H3DII, while providing not ideal but workable responses to most photographer's wishes (wide 28mm, tilt/shift adapter, decent back screen).
I don't use a Hassy - now - but I'm sure all those used "obsolete" H3DII bodies are going to find good homes. And I'm sure that whatever floats in from Japan, both Hasselblad and Leica are going to survive. Hassy because they will adapt, and Leica because they have learnt how to cater to the dentists who buy most of them, while making cameras that even pros can have fun using.
Edmund
I dont chime in often, but today I feel compelled to get onto the field from the sidelines. I am neither a big fan nor a hater of Michael. But, I do appreciate his site as one of the few places on the web that provides such a wealth of information through both the LL site and these forums. Many voices are heard about the industry and I think that in the "dark" world of MFD it is very much welcomed. However, It is HIS site, and he can feel free just as the NYT or any other outlet to Call it as he sees it. Period. I hold a similar opinion to him in that I don't like what Hasselblad has done. The truth is that even with the Intro of the HY6 and the "New" Phamiya the H1/2 is still the best overall camera for a Digital back. A Leaf rep some time before Hass "closed" the H system told me that 85% of their backs were made for the H. As much as I like the H Camera (and its not without many faults) I very much Dislike their backs. Granted I haven't seen the newest toys in action, but the package of software (phocus sucks) and back are still fall far behind Phase. So for many people be they leaf, or phase etc, the thought of New lenses and bodies not working with their "H" back is disheartening. But we've gone through all of this before. No, a bigger issue is at hand. Right now MFD reminds me of the Drum Scanner market right before its demise. There was some vibrance in the Drum industry (as there is now in MFD) and then it was gone. I dont think a single drum company exist today. Imacon (Hass) came in with its Virtual Drum (CCD not real PMT drum tech) and huge flat beds invaded the market. They did more for less and where much easier to live with. Were/are they better than a drum. No. Now there are still many very old drum scanners doing their job, but they are breed that nears extinction. To me this Photokina marks the begging of the end. Lets look at the facts: Canon obsoleted its 1dsIII in LESS than a year (anybody want to buy mine?) with a camera that cost a fraction (5d2) and that THEY claim is superior in image quality. Amazing. More amazing the 1ds3 has quality if shot under the right conditions that rivals or exceeds the big boys. Is it better in IQ? No. But guess what: neither were the big flat bed scanners or virtual drums, but they killed the Drum. The 5d2 and the 1ds4 which will most likely come out next year will seal the deal, and HD video will be the icing. I promise. 3 years on from 39mp and the best we have 60mp? Sure frame rates seem great, little better hi iso (surely no match for Canon) and a little better LCD? But that is it? And, they are asking the same or more money. The P30 P21 and 45's of the world lumber on with no improvement or replacement. No innovation. Now talk of RED making the ultimate combo cam next year. I have talked with 4 owners of P45's and not one has a desire to upgrade at the going rate. These are shooters at the top of their fields. None of their demanding clients has asked for bigger files. To me the lower price is a preemptive strike on the next round of Canon and Nikon. If the rumors are even half true of what is in the pipe from Japan then the end is near for MFD unless the do more than drop prices a bit and add MP....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225845\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
It seems that people have interpreted my Hasselblad comments as criticising the company for reducing prices. Here, in part, what I wrote...
One can only guess as to the reasons for this fire sale, and I'll leave the more financially knowledgeable among readers to fathom it out for themselves. Overall though it seems to me to be an unhealthy trend for the MF industry, as lower margins (for dealers as well) combined with our current global financial crisis (which is causing credit to dry up and consumer to be wary), could well lead to a considerably constriction in the marketplace. Add to this cameras like the 25MP Sony A900 and 21MP Canon 5D MII full frame cameras at around $2,500, and one has to wonder at the economic viability of much of the medium format marketplace.
The thrust of my article was aimed at the economic viability of the medium format digital back industry, not Hasselblad's price reductions as seen from the point of view of photographers. Of course lower prices are desirable – for consumers. But, are they for manufacturers? That's the nub.
By going through box sellers, like B&H, Hasselblad over the past year or so has nicely increased their sales volume. Their sales numbers are public, so it's easy to see what's happening, and good for them!
But with inexpensive full frame DSLRs at up to 25MP now available for under $3,000 MF makers are in a bind. New larger format DSLRs such as the Leica S2 and Nikon MX will put even more pressure on MF back makers next year.
The volumes in MF are very low compared to mainstream DSLRs. The high density large chips are still very expensive. Need I also point out that the economy is in rough shape, and likely to get rougher?
All of these are factors that weigh heavily on the industry. That's what I was talking about. Not consumers – but rather the industry.
Hasselblad's price reductions aren't magical. They need higher volume, and are lowering prices to get it. (Who knows? Maybe the need to hit certain annual volumes on camera bodies and lenses to hold price points from Fuji, who are the ones actually doing the manufacturing of these items).
Yes, lower prices benefit consumers, but they may not benefit the industry. Hasselblad's competitors have already started to lower their prices in several market segments. No back maker is going to sit back and have someone eat their lunch.
But, let's remember, these are all small companies that have high costs and small sales volumes. Lower prices reduce their incomes which then means that they have less money for R&D and new product development, let alone ultimate corporate survival.
I believe that this round of price cutting, started by Hasselblad, will only mean one thing – a contraction in the number of corporate survivors. It's likely that within the next 12 months at least a couple of MF back companies will either retreat from the business or be acquired by their competitors.
Is this a good thing? I guess it is if you're one of the survivors. But I don't think it is for the consumer. Yes, prices will be lower, but also choice of MF backs and variety will be reduced.
That's the point that I was making.
Michael
-
(Who knows? Maybe the need to hit certain annual volumes on camera bodies and lenses to hold price points from Fuji, who are the ones actually doing the manufacturing of these items).
This is simply inaccurate. The bodies (including the Fuji GX) are made in Sweden. Fuji do make the lenses (but not the shutters).
If Hasselblad are, as you seem to be implying "desperate" and needing to hit certain mythical volumes why then have they just released a completely new zoom lens (requiring new tooling and unique lens construction methods) along with the HTS (5 lens elements)?
Nick-T
-
OT:
Does Hasselblad give international warranty on their products these days?
Thanks.
-
Michael,
I don't think we are seeing a fire sale, just a careful assessment of changing circumstances, and a shrewd decision to take risks to be in front. One thing I've noticed is that while H were stressing the elitist/trendy aspect of the H system before - now they are increasingly stressing the actual technical performance of their cameras in their litterature, and doing demos. The message is now "This camera takes good pictures AND you can afford it".
5 years ago, MF had a high initial investment and a high marginal (per unit) cost. Now chips are reaching maturity, bodies are stabilizing, and we have an industry with high investment but tolerable marginal costs. Such industries fare better when they commoditize their products.
The R&D on the H bodies is basically done and paid for with the H1 and H2, the AF works and keeps working, the mirror slaps and keeps on slapping, the various knobs don't corrode or fall off, the back and lens mounts are stable and above all the battery and the lens and back contacts are proven and reliable. In fact Hasselblad say the dumber the body the happier they are. Marginal costs on making a piece of metal is not going to kill them. The same is true of the existing lenses - they are done, and probably amortized now, just raking in profits as batches get made and sold.
Which leaves the backs. The marginal costs ie. component prices here have fallen - off the top of my head I'd say that the sensor itself is now well under $2K for the HD31. The real expense is the R&D which needs to be redone every time a new sensor is integrated. Which is why higher volumes are beneficial, to offset this initial investment ie. the R&D.
Also, every single Hassy sold now is a potential sale of a lens - which is all profit. Now wonder Hassy wants more bodies out there.
It seems that people have interpreted my Hasselblad comments as criticising the company for reducing prices. Here, in part, what I wrote...
One can only guess as to the reasons for this fire sale, and I'll leave the more financially knowledgeable among readers to fathom it out for themselves. Overall though it seems to me to be an unhealthy trend for the MF industry, as lower margins (for dealers as well) combined with our current global financial crisis (which is causing credit to dry up and consumer to be wary), could well lead to a considerably constriction in the marketplace. Add to this cameras like the 25MP Sony A900 and 21MP Canon 5D MII full frame cameras at around $2,500, and one has to wonder at the economic viability of much of the medium format marketplace.
The thrust of my article was aimed at the economic viability of the medium format digital back industry, not Hasselblad's price reductions as seen from the point of view of photographers. Of course lower prices are desirable – for consumers. But, are they for manufacturers? That's the nub.
By going through box sellers, like B&H, Hasselblad over the past year or so has nicely increased their sales volume. Their sales numbers are public, so it's easy to see what's happening, and good for them!
But with inexpensive full frame DSLRs at up to 25MP now available for under $3,000 MF makers are in a bind. New larger format DSLRs such as the Leica S2 and Nikon MX will put even more pressure on MF back makers next year.
The volumes in MF are very low compared to mainstream DSLRs. The high density large chips are still very expensive. Need I also point out that the economy is in rough shape, and likely to get rougher?
All of these are factors that weigh heavily on the industry. That's what I was talking about. Not consumers – but rather the industry.
Hasselblad's price reductions aren't magical. They need higher volume, and are lowering prices to get it. (Who knows? Maybe the need to hit certain annual volumes on camera bodies and lenses to hold price points from Fuji, who are the ones actually doing the manufacturing of these items).
Yes, lower prices benefit consumers, but they may not benefit the industry. Hasselblad's competitors have already started to lower their prices in several market segments. No back maker is going to sit back and have someone eat their lunch.
But, let's remember, these are all small companies that have high costs and small sales volumes. Lower prices reduce their incomes which then means that they have less money for R&D and new product development, let alone ultimate corporate survival.
I believe that this round of price cutting, started by Hasselblad, will only mean one thing – a contraction in the number of corporate survivors. It's likely that within the next 12 months at least a couple of MF back companies will either retreat from the business or be acquired by their competitors.
Is this a good thing? I guess it is if you're one of the survivors. But I don't think it is for the consumer. Yes, prices will be lower, but also choice of MF backs and variety will be reduced.
That's the point that I was making.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225981\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
[Snip]... Nikon MX will put even more pressure on MF back makers next year. [Snip]
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225981\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Are you confirming the Nikon MX rumour, Michael? Hope you're not busting any NDA agreement
-
Is this a good thing? I guess it is if you're one of the survivors. But I don't think it is for the consumer. Yes, prices will be lower, but also choice of MF backs and variety will be reduced.
That's the point that I was making.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225981\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
was it so bad when we had only fuji and kodak film to pick from? let the free market decide.
when and if someone comes up with a competitive model there will be room in the market for them.
The sad truth is that unlike the corporate world, photographers find it much more difficult to pass on the R&D and profit margins of the equipment makers and resellers to the clients.. and the fact of the matter is that a file from a 5d2 will get you the same fee as with a hy6 .. the clients really don't care..and are not going to offer up any compensation for the bigger file.. photographers have been eating it..and while we are suckers for quality, those still in business are not stupid and can't afford the continued pursuit of the mp summit offered by the old school mfdb makers.
I witnessed last month a well known fashion shooter get a very large fee job.. and he shot it all with a canon..this was a US national campaign, outdoor, instore, consumer ads..I was surprised but did the client say to him..oh, aren't you shooting this with a mfdb?? NOPE!
and here a lot of us are busting our butts trying to buy that next 50 or 60mp.. or even just upgrade to a 33mp.. and struggling to get 1500 bucks for a shoot and no comp for digital capture equip. WHY?
I think the industry needs a good shaking out.
-
This is simply inaccurate. The bodies (including the Fuji GX) are made in Sweden. Fuji do make the lenses (but not the shutters).
Nick-T
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225982\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That is not my understanding. But if shown to be correct I will retract my statement and apologize.
Michael
-
Are you confirming the Nikon MX rumour, Michael? Hope you're not busting any NDA agreement
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226035\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am not under any NDA with Nikon at this time, but the coming of the MX format from Nikon is not much of a secret within the industry.
Michael
-
Is this a good thing? I guess it is if you're one of the survivors. But I don't think it is for the consumer. Yes, prices will be lower, but also choice of MF backs and variety will be reduced.
That's the point that I was making.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225981\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
was it so bad when we had only fuji and kodak film to pick from? let the free market decide.
when and if someone comes up with a competitive model there will be room in the market for them.
The sad truth is that unlike the corporate world, photographers find it much more difficult to pass on the R&D and profit margins of the equipment makers and resellers to the clients.. and the fact of the matter is that a file from a 5d2 will get you the same fee as with a hy6 .. the clients really don't care..and are not going to offer up any compensation for the bigger file.. photographers have been eating it..and while we are suckers for quality, those still in business are not stupid and can't afford the continued pursuit of the mp summit offered by the old school mfdb makers.
I witnessed last month a well known fashion shooter get a very large fee job.. and he shot it all with a canon..this was a US national campaign, outdoor, instore, consumer ads..I was surprised but did the client say to him..oh, aren't you shooting this with a mfdb?? NOPE!
and here a lot of us are busting our butts trying to buy that next 50 or 60mp.. or even just upgrade to a 33mp.. and struggling to get 1500 bucks for a shoot and no comp for digital capture equip. WHY?
I think the industry needs a good shaking out.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226037\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
But would you get the job in the first place if the client didn't like your book, it's quite easy to see the difference between a DB and DSLR in a good 11*14 inkjet print. Not saying that a DB is better but different, for my look that I get paid to do I need a DB.
Also can someone tell me why a H3D is "better" than a Mamiya AFD 3. One of the main reason I shoot phase is because I don't like the H cameras.
-
Is this a good thing? I guess it is if you're one of the survivors. But I don't think it is for the consumer. Yes, prices will be lower, but also choice of MF backs and variety will be reduced.
That's the point that I was making.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225981\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
was it so bad when we had only fuji and kodak film to pick from? let the free market decide.
when and if someone comes up with a competitive model there will be room in the market for them.
The sad truth is that unlike the corporate world, photographers find it much more difficult to pass on the R&D and profit margins of the equipment makers and resellers to the clients.. and the fact of the matter is that a file from a 5d2 will get you the same fee as with a hy6 .. the clients really don't care..and are not going to offer up any compensation for the bigger file.. photographers have been eating it..and while we are suckers for quality, those still in business are not stupid and can't afford the continued pursuit of the mp summit offered by the old school mfdb makers.
I witnessed last month a well known fashion shooter get a very large fee job.. and he shot it all with a canon..this was a US national campaign, outdoor, instore, consumer ads..I was surprised but did the client say to him..oh, aren't you shooting this with a mfdb?? NOPE!
and here a lot of us are busting our butts trying to buy that next 50 or 60mp.. or even just upgrade to a 33mp.. and struggling to get 1500 bucks for a shoot and no comp for digital capture equip. WHY?
I think the industry needs a good shaking out.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226037\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
SORRY DOUBLE POST
-
was it so bad when we had only fuji and kodak film to pick from? let the free market decide.
Yes – actually I think it was. I miss Ansco, Ilford, 3M, Agfa and a host of others that I can't recall at the moment. Choice is good.
Michael
-
was it so bad when we had only fuji and kodak film to pick from? let the free market decide.
Yes – actually I think it was. I miss Ansco, Ilford, 3M, Agfa and a host of others that I can't recall at the moment. Choice is good.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226049\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
comeon,
we are talking about the vast majority of the commercial market.. sure having some agfa in the freezer was cool when you wanted to do something different.. meat and potatoes commercial..
or do I have the wrong forum, this isn't the fineart, cameraclub or popphoto forum is it?
kodak and fuji more than covered it all for 99% of working pros..
but the free market will and does allow choice..remember the hosemaster..live by the sword die by it..
Yes I know we all miss those small auto makers of the 20's too! Those bad guys at gm and ford drove them out of business..or maybe they just didn't have the right product for the consumer.
-
OK. Maybe you're right.
Let's just have a world with only GM and Toyota, Nikon and Canon, Fuji and Kodak, Hasselblad and Phase One.
Who needs anything else?
And, f___'em if they do!
Michael
Ps: Irony alert.
-
I witnessed last month a well known fashion shooter get a very large fee job.. and he shot it all with a canon..this was a US national campaign, outdoor, instore, consumer ads..I was surprised but did the client say to him..oh, aren't you shooting this with a mfdb?? NOPE!
and here a lot of us are busting our butts trying to buy that next 50 or 60mp.. or even just upgrade to a 33mp.. and struggling to get 1500 bucks for a shoot and no comp for digital capture equip. WHY?
I think the industry needs a good shaking out.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226037\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
But would you get the job in the first place if the client didn't like your book, it's quite easy to see the difference between a DB and DSLR in a good 11*14 inkjet print. Not saying that a DB is better but different, for my look that I get paid to do I need a DB.
Also can someone tell me why a H3D is "better" than a Mamiya AFD 3. One of the main reason I shoot phase is because I don't like the H cameras.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226046\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
you put way too much confidence in most clients ability to discern an 11x14 inkjet - sure you get the diff. but does the client...have they studied photography for 15years? I don't think so.
a crappy low megapixel camera in the hands of a good photographer is way better than a average photograher with a h3-50mp will ever be..I think we all will agree on that.
-
OK. Maybe you're right.
Let's just have a world with only GM and Toyota, Nikon and Canon, Fuji and Kodak, Hasselblad and Phase One.
Who needs anything else?
And, f___'em if they do!
Michael
Ps: Irony alert.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226055\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Where will PhaseOne put their backs then???
-
Oh, come on!
How about the Phase One camera?
How about the compatible Mamiya 645 body. How about the tens of thousands of existing Mamiya's Hasselblad H1 and H2s, Rolleis, Contaxes, etc, etc.
Let's let it drop, OK?
Michael
-
Oh, come on!
How about the Phase One camera?
How about the compatible Mamiya 645 body. How about the tens of thousands of existing Mamiya's Hasselblad H1 and H2s, Rolleis, Contaxes, etc, etc.
Let's let it drop, OK?
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226060\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Lighten up, I was humorously replying to your ironic post!
-
That is not my understanding. But if shown to be correct I will retract my statement and apologize.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226044\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I can confirm that the bodies are indeed manufactured and assembled in Sweden.
-
That is not my understanding. But if shown to be correct I will retract my statement and apologize.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226044\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have just double checked with a couple of Hasselblad employees on ichat and they confirm that my statement was correct.
Nick-T
-
Michael,
I don't think we are seeing a fire sale, just a careful assessment of changing circumstances, and a shrewd decision to take risks to be in front. One thing I've noticed is that while H were stressing the elitist/trendy aspect of the H system before - now they are increasingly stressing the actual technical performance of their cameras in their litterature, and doing demos. The message is now "This camera takes good pictures AND you can afford it".
5 years ago, MF had a high initial investment and a high marginal (per unit) cost. Now chips are reaching maturity, bodies are stabilizing, and we have an industry with high investment but tolerable marginal costs. Such industries fare better when they commoditize their products.
The R&D on the H bodies is basically done and paid for with the H1 and H2, the AF works and keeps working, the mirror slaps and keeps on slapping, the various knobs don't corrode or fall off, the back and lens mounts are stable and above all the battery and the lens and back contacts are proven and reliable. In fact Hasselblad say the dumber the body the happier they are. Marginal costs on making a piece of metal is not going to kill them. The same is true of the existing lenses - they are done, and probably amortized now, just raking in profits as batches get made and sold.
Which leaves the backs. The marginal costs ie. component prices here have fallen - off the top of my head I'd say that the sensor itself is now well under $2K for the HD31. The real expense is the R&D which needs to be redone every time a new sensor is integrated. Which is why higher volumes are beneficial, to offset this initial investment ie. the R&D.
Also, every single Hassy sold now is a potential sale of a lens - which is all profit. Now wonder Hassy wants more bodies out there.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226030\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well put, Edmund. I think your analysis is right on target.
-
Here's what a "fire sale" (to quote Michael) stand looks like:
http://panoramas.dk/photokina/2008/hasselblad/index.html (http://panoramas.dk/photokina/2008/hasselblad/index.html)
Nick-T
-
After reading this, I give this rumor 98% probability to be true.
Eduardo
I am not under any NDA with Nikon at this time, but the coming of the MX format from Nikon is not much of a secret within the industry.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226045\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
After reading this, I give this rumor 98% probability to be true.
Eduardo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226084\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In which case, Canon will go there too, and Fuji will finally buy out Shiro, put their own sensors in the Hassies and stop selling film to the Japanese and Korean wedding photographers
It will be left to Phase and Sinar to do what we do best in Europe, switch off the lights of the last factory, and put the key under the mat
Edmund
-
Here's what a "fire sale" (to quote Michael) stand looks like:
http://panoramas.dk/photokina/2008/hasselblad/index.html (http://panoramas.dk/photokina/2008/hasselblad/index.html)
Nick-T
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226075\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Definitely one of the best looking stands I've ever seen. And the fashion shoot setup is very decent too, unlike most other makers offering laughable wannabe models and set design. I think Hasselblad are without a question masters of marketing, with nice looking website, advertising, magazine, etc. As for the actual products, I'm not a fan personally but they are solid and I think the price reduction is a sensible and natural evolution. Like someone else here said; all products get better and usually somewhat cheaper as the market and technology matures.
-
We are close to the point, if we are not already there, where clients just see digital capture as it's all good and professional. Nobody usually mentions file sizes, or dr or anything like that.
Color, stability of software, lack of artifacts or moire can be mentioned, but I haven't had a conversation with a client about the file size or brand/make of a digital camera in a long long time.
I also think that we are close to the leveling of the brands.
When I bought my Phase backs, (for my style of work and workflow) I believe they were better than anything else and maybe in some areas still have advantage for me, (once again depending on what you shoot), but not having worked a new Hasselblad or Leaf or Sinar I can't say that one is actually better than the other, though from what I hear and read, they all seem pretty close.
The point of all this is I like the idea of buy it, learn it, use it, sell it if something better comes along, or buy the next one just because it has a different look in the file or the glass or the camera operation.
I see nothing about that sceanrio that limits medium format, in fact I think it will grow the format.
I have Nikons, Canons, Leica and Phase and switch between them all the time, sometimes on the same project, sometimes because each one (and the lenses) will give me a different look.
Michael does that, so do many other photographers. Nothing new about owning different systems, even in the same format.
Lower prices makes this easier to do.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225835\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree, I think the quality of the high end digital capture is reaching to a point which level of mega pixels will allow faster and more efficient post production work, it is more on how to get the best out of the digital raw than to continue to look for extra 10-20 million pixels, although certainly there are extra benefit, but may be for a common size print AD it is no longer that visible, or we are pushing the limit to the printing industries that when we output more, they cannot print more.
I use several systems, and all of them are very good - file quality wise. The workflow becomes more software oriented, which system perform more robust than another. My P45+ on Contax 645 works very stable, and my H3D39 - after Hasselblad released the new Phocus software, became easily as solid as Capture One, I shot in one assignment in a day more than 1,000 exposures and not once the software fail, which is very impressive. Sinar Hy6 and eMotion 75 is fast in real time, when tethered they are somewhat a little slower, but the file quality for beauty shot is perhaps the most pleasing skin tone and smoothness of all I have used, of course this is subjective opinion.
Me too like to grab my M8 or 1Ds MK3 in between digital backs but my only problem is that M8 only start from ISO 160 that is difficult to synchronize with the lighting set up for backs, most often at ISO 50, or 100 with Sinar.
But for all they are, certainly lower price the better, but I also believe a health operation should allow each segment of the industries to work, we expect reasonable pay from client and should also allow professional camera maker to make reasonable profit. We are too far out of the real manufacturing and operation of the camera company to snap judgement, but if bad price war lead to failing a company, I am not so sure it is a good sign.
-
I think I can tell where Phase One is going to put their backs:
I've been working on my options to upgrade my P20 for a few months now.
For about a month ago I got this email from Phase One offering a P25+ for 10,200 Euros.
Today, I got an email from my dealer telling me the price to upgrade my P20 to a P25+ is 9,200 Euros.
So if some is lost and desperate here that's Phase One.
And from a customer's point of view, after a LightPhase, an H20, a P20 and a P21, here is where my love story with Phase One comes to and end.
Actually, my feelings are now much hotter than when Hasselblad closed the H2 (that I was using then).
So I better stop writing now.
To be continued...
/Samuel
-
was it so bad when we had only fuji and kodak film to pick from? let the free market decide.
I witnessed last month a well known fashion shooter get a very large fee job.. and he shot it all with a canon..this was a US national campaign, outdoor, instore, consumer ads..I was surprised but did the client say to him..oh, aren't you shooting this with a mfdb?? NOPE!
and here a lot of us are busting our butts trying to buy that next 50 or 60mp.. or even just upgrade to a 33mp.. and struggling to get 1500 bucks for a shoot and no comp for digital capture equip. WHY?
I think the industry needs a good shaking out.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226037\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
just re-read what you wrote and look at the contradiction....
let the market decide!
you sound like a republican leader 3 weeks ago....
if you only let the market decide we all end up with expensive crap....
and the jobs we get have to be shot on expensive equipment for no money....
i work in LA and it hurts to see (as a still photographer) how well the movie industry has taken care of their own with the unions.....
WHY should anyone shoot a national campaign with a DMF back? there is no need for it at all! and yes, i can tell the difference between a DMF and a DSLR image (most of the time) but not from a printed page in a mag....i talk to my assistants all the time and they can't beleive how much advertising is shot with 5Ds and cheap zooms....
and just because they (the assistants) have the same equipment does not mean they could or even should get the same jobs....
20 years ago it was very common that students or assistants had the better/newer equipment then the people they worked for...no problem, this was mostly because people start out with one system and stick with it....even for 20 years, maybe add a lens or two at some point....
digital slightly changed that for a while...but the P45 was never a guarantee for getting a job....thank god...
so of course everybody is happy to see prices come down, but this is a very small market and one ripple will make waves everywhere and i am not sure how much rocking the fragile little niche can handle.....
above all i think variety (more stronger brands) will give us better product, better prices AND with that comes better VALUE which is really the most important aspect of all....
i am glad that there are companies like sinar and leica which don't always provide the lowest price, but tend to provide interesting products which in the end often represent a good value....all the bitching about the m8, its re-sale price runs circles around any other digital device i know...
if you want your book to stand out from the crowd, invest in your production value and lights....and feed your team well....
-
Competition is good. H3D price drop is good.
I notice Hasselblad accessories and lens price is increasing.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225933\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
yah - now that we have the base setup it's getting more expensive to buy the rest we need...
-
if you want your book to stand out from the crowd, invest in your production value and lights....and feed your team well....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226101\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
now theres an idea...
-
if you only let the market decide we all end up with expensive crap....
and the jobs we get have to be shot on expensive equipment for no money....
I don't really follow your logic here.. I don't think we will end up with expensive stuff if hasselblad drops the price of their camera/back, or if sinar tomorrow cuts theirs 42%.. maybe they will cut their line.. maybe if nobody buys the 50mp or the 60 mp they will get it.. and adjust to the marketplace.. or go away. I agree work on the lighting, work on the sets that is how to set yourself apart from the rest - and bill for the camera on every job!
-
I think Hasselblad is simply moving back to the traditional camera manufacturer model, and away from the MF digital --low volume / High margin -- model that came with the early digital offerings from Kodak, Imacon, PhaseOne and Leaf, which were largely independent from a traditional "camera" business.
It seems to me that the traditional model has always been about attracting the photographer to your product with an exciting feature driven body, and then selling them the lenses and accessories to go with it. That investment in lenses keeps the photographer "in your camp" (ie keeps the customer from being seduced by your competitors sexy offerings), and thus ensures a stable market share. When hasselblad "closed" its format it was highly criticized, but this was essentially the first move back towards the traditional model that is has been largely maintained by their counterparts in the 35mm segment with their own proprietary locked systems. Fast forwarding to now, we see that nearly all the other MF digital manufacturers have followed suit.
The "fire sale" is simply nothing more than an attempt to increase market share at the expense of margin on the body/back portion of the product line. There were no discounts on lenses, certainly none on that newfangled HTS 1.5. Hasselblad is redefining the MF digital segment with this move, and it will likely be followed by all the players that have developed their own MF CAMERA systems. It is likely that some will fall to the wayside, but in the end...several....3 or 4 will form the same kind of pantheon once occupied by Hasselblad, Mamiya, Bronica and Rollei. The world won't end, and they'll all be stronger, more stable companies because of it.
-
Part of the issue that some are not following here and Micheal hit on it is this. If you keep pushing the margins down on these OEM's at some point it would not be worth continuing with R&D on new product and save that investment in that because your profits are a lot smaller. So at some point they will make a basic camera for cheap because that is all they can make with no new technology or technology left out . The other side of this coin is simply this and it is a fact Hassy is a closed system that only will take Hassy lenses. They can almost give away the body and back because they simply have you by the balls with there glass. So they can charge anything they want to make up the difference. The Leica S2 will be able to do the same thing, sell the S2 at 15k than charge 3k or more for the glass. This is basically why Hassy went to a closed system in the first place. They want you to buy there lenses period. Not sure where the mystery is in that. That is there business module like it or not but that really is the bottom line. Phase owners you can buy other lenses and other bodies to go with there backs so Phase will have to sell there backs at normal prices to make there margins. They do that today and give you a free Mamiya AFD-III as the incentive. Now back to the first issue , if the price wars start than Phase will have to lower there prices and in effect they have to make up that revenue somewhere and the only place they can do that is cheapen the product, they already gave you the body and there is not much else they can do to make you buy there product except stop R&D and stop new product and sell existing technology for the market price. At some point this will kill them but worse make it not as good as it could be for the end user. Obviously a little exaggerated here but get my point at some point in time something has to give, break or bend and that is not really good for us as a industry. I would stop thinking about your personal pocket and think industry for a moment. At the end of the day this could hurt all of us. Lets not even mention the guy or gal that spent 32 k last month on a H339 and today his investment lost 10k in 30 days or more and even less. sorry folks that freaking hurts the resale on that back big time. i had a friend listing his H39 that he had 3 months for 22k and he pulled it off the market. Now he is stuck or takes a huge bath on it. nice to see lower prices i agree but not at the sake of burning your own customers and the industry. Frankly in this market today who the hell is going to bail out these MF companies when they are in trouble. Not my government i can tell you that for sure.
If you are part of the MF world you really have to think what overall is best for our market that we deal in everyday when we go buy a battery, lens or a back it is all related. I love a deal as much as the next guy but when my back is old and tired just think this direction in time what will I get to replace it as time marched on and nothing good is out there because they can't afford to build it for us. One thing to lower prices but worse to rape the industry. I have been in this industry for 35 years like many others and still have 20 years to go at some point i will need a lot more cameras if we keep cheapening the market than i will be buying technology that never got developed into a product because the OEM can't afford to make it. This is absolutely no different than us charging the proper fee's for our work than some idiot undercutting those rates and than what happens we are out there scratching our ...
-
The smartest thing to do is forget the camera and body pricing because now it is skewed with what Hassy did. What you really need to do with pricing is add up all the parts to a system say body and 4 lenses than compare the same with each company and than see what works out to best overall on the bottom line. Forget the oh cool Hassy dropped there prices but there say 150mm is 4 times higher than the other guy. Do the bottom line math and work it that way. BTW i have nothing against Hassy they build a nice product but you have to understand there business module here. Not there pricing
-
The smartest thing to do is forget the camera and body pricing because now it is skewed with what Hassy did. What you really need to do with pricing is add up all the parts to a system say body and 4 lenses than compare the same with each company and than see what works out to best overall on the bottom line. Forget the oh cool Hassy dropped there prices but there say 150mm is 4 times higher than the other guy. Do the bottom line math and work it that way. BTW i have nothing against Hassy they build a nice product but you have to understand there business module here. Not there pricing
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226138\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yeah, go to Calumet's website and price lenses for the hassy vs the Schneider lenses for the AFi.
-
If you are part of the MF world you really have to think what overall is best for our market that we deal in everyday when we go buy a battery, lens or a back it is all related. I love a deal as much as the next guy but when my back is old and tired just think this direction in time what will I get to replace it as time marched on and nothing good is out there because they can't afford to build it for us. One thing to lower prices but worse to rape the industry.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226136\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
Look, I think 5 years ago we all knew and expected that as tech. moved along stuff was going to get cheaper, I and hundreds of other photographers ponied up and paid the price for R&D, you want to buy a nikon d1 I bought for 3500 back in 2000..I didn't think so.. it was a worthwhile ride in depreciation. I kept on waiting for that to fall into place with mfdbs.. it didn't until they were threatened by canon and others making such inroads into their territory that it can't be put off any longer.. it is just overdue imho.
If there is a demand for the 50-60mp back then someone will make it, and some photographers will pay the price..period. nothing new...there are plenty of people with the means to buy the highend stuff as it rolls out of the factory, thus insuring supply.
I'm not sure Guy I get the "rape of the industry" visual..
-
"In 1995 the DCS 460 hit the market with a 6-megapixel CCD and a whopping $30,000 price tag."
Who's upset about the new Canon 5D MII at around $2,500???? Bringing the prices down has killed Canon's R&D!!!
NOT!
-
If you are part of the MF world you really have to think what overall is best for our market that we deal in everyday when we go buy a battery, lens or a back it is all related. I love a deal as much as the next guy but when my back is old and tired just think this direction in time what will I get to replace it as time marched on and nothing good is out there because they can't afford to build it for us. One thing to lower prices but worse to rape the industry.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226136\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Look, I think 5 years ago we all knew and expected that as tech. moved along stuff was going to get cheaper, I and hundreds of other photographers ponied up and paid the price for R&D, you want to buy a nikon d1 I bought for 3500 back in 2000..I didn't think so.. it was a worthwhile ride in depreciation. I kept on waiting for that to fall into place with mfdbs.. it didn't until they were threatened by canon and others making such inroads into their territory that it can't be put off any longer.. it is just overdue imho.
If there is a demand for the 50-60mp back then someone will make it, and some photographers will pay the price..period. nothing new...there are plenty of people with the means to buy the highend stuff as it rolls out of the factory, thus insuring supply.
I'm not sure Guy I get the "rape of the industry" visual..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226142\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
Paul not really saying what we will buy but what will be around at some point and who will even be a player as a OEM. If there is no money for R&D and to build new technology either they will fold, merge or blowup . What we maybe only able to buy is a product with no money in it and left the new technology out. Forget the Canons and Nikons they have more money to lose than anyone and can suck it up. Ther not the issue for us it is the small companies like Sinar, Leaf, Phase and leica not to mention Hassy that can only handle so much lose of business before something bad happens to them. Do we really want survival of the fittest here with maybe only 1 or 2 places to actually buy something from, than we leave out our options on what we want. This is a fine line and in the end we as users can pay dearly for it if everyone folds. That is raping the industry and the biggest issue is we are the smallest group of buying power is the MF world. 35mm will survive almost no matter what but will MF and those 5 companies still be in business when you take the revenue out of it and they start cutting the support feed bag because they can't afford to have a loaners in house and repair times go to months. (Leica) i have been here and done that.
-
Yeah, go to Calumet's website and price lenses for the hassy vs the Schneider lenses for the AFi.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226141\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Or, Adorama'a web site to compare the Hasselblad and latest Mamiya D lens prices for a three lens kit---28, 45-90 zoom, and 150---to go with the 80mm "kit" lens. Interesting. $11,290 for the Hasselblad lenses v. $14,182 for the Mamiya lenses. The Mamiya prices are 25% higher.
-
"In 1995 the DCS 460 hit the market with a 6-megapixel CCD and a whopping $30,000 price tag."
Who's upset about the new Canon 5D MII at around $2,500???? Bringing the prices down has killed Canon's R&D!!!
NOT!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226143\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
But Canon is selling hundreds of other product to make up for the 5DII as a loss leader. MF companies don't have that power.
For example does anyone know how small Alpa is. Answer last I heard 3 people.
-
At the end of the day this could hurt all of us. Lets not even mention the guy or gal that spent 32 k last month on a H339 and today his investment lost 10k in 30 days or more and even less. sorry folks that freaking hurts the resale on that back big time. i had a friend listing his H39 that he had 3 months for 22k and he pulled it off the market. Now he is stuck or takes a huge bath on it. nice to see lower prices i agree but not at the sake of burning your own customers and the industry.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=226136\")
Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but this is the strangest argument I have heard for keeping camera prices high.
So somebody lost 10k on a camera back.
My first Aptus 22 after 1 years use only sold for $8,000 so there was much more than a 10k loss. No big deal because none of these cameras are real investments, other than improving your business so I didn't really expect to see the Aptus appreciate in price. I used it, made money with it, sold it.
I just don't get it. People have been complaining about the price (and usability) of medium format for years and finally some maker cuts prices and now people complain about that.
Regardless, if medium format wants to worry, they shouldn't worry about Hasselblad, they should worry about Nikon or Canon.
Last Sunday I did a processing test where I was trying to get 800 or 1600 iso out of my p30+ for a gig coming up. (I'll post those results later).
Anyway, while I was doing it I thought I'd shoot the P30+ and the 1ds3 and even the little Nikon D90 at the same time. Now this is an unscientific test so none of the pixel peepers start screaming about lenses and focus points, etc.
I was just curious at full rez, 200 iso how the Nikon D90 did and while I was at it I threw in a 1ds3 shot.
Now, by all rights and measures the canon and Nikon aren't quite as good as the p30+ but even the little $900 Nikon was damn good and the Canon is 1/2 the price of the P30+, the Nikon 1/15th the price.
Imagine if Nikon comes out with the MX that is 4 times the size and twice the quality of this little camera.
(warning 16mb download).
[a href=\"http://www.ishotit.com/p_30_canon_nikon.jpg]http://www.ishotit.com/p_30_canon_nikon.jpg[/url]
Now does this mean I'm going to shoot my next gig with a N-90 . . . no. But could I . . . yea probably.
JR
-
James you have to admit losing 10k on paper is not going to make you go out and party about it. Yes they will depreciate no question and we as Pro's will make it pay for itself hopefully a hundred times over but a hobbyist that makes no money from this , it just hurts and you have to admit that.
Now the flip side here if the MF companies really start to dwindle down because of pricing falling below revenue how are they supposed to stay ahead of the Canon and Nikons with no money to invest. I'm not complaining about Hassy lowering there pricing per say and we all want to save money but do we really want to see MORE mergers within the MF community and when we want a MF back there maybe 1 or 2 companies left to do business with. All I am saying is this is a tightrope and if the pricing goes too far it hurts the industry in MF as a whole. Also if prices don't help the end user than they won't get anyone to move in either. It really is a catch 22 . i am all for saving money no question but I just don't want to see the players fold up there tents and say screw it not worth the effort.
-
Why on earth would you sell a $34,000 camera 3 months after you bought it???
-
People do it all the time. There is a Hassy for sale right now H39 for just under 13k . People change there mind or lose interest but that is a big cut for a hobbyist
-
In past I have bought brand new Porsche & right now I have 2008 X5 & couple of years older BMW 330ci. I am not a pro driver, just love my wheels, but I know if I tried to sell my 2008 X5 with under 10k miles on it, I will take a hit. That's life. When computers came out I bought $10k PC, few years later, I laughed when someone offered me $400. In the end I took it my dumpster. All these products once they are used, they drop in prices, except for my wife's Louis Vuitton %$#& bags!
-
All these products once they are used, they drop in prices, except for my wife's Louis Vuitton %$#& bags!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226162\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It cost me more to get rid of my used wife than she cost in the first place!!!
-
Guy, I dont get it. Why on earth should I give them ( Phase for example ) my money, so they can spend it on their R&D and not even address the things I and others are asking them for ( screen, Wifi,...). They use my money and burn it on MPs I don't need. The market should force all of the MFDB companies to produce stuff which makes sense, not only to me, but to a lot of the picture takers out there.
-
People do it all the time. There is a Hassy for sale right now H39 for just under 13k . People change there mind or lose interest but that is a big cut for a hobbyist
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226160\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There is also a Canon 5D on ebay right now for around 800 bucks, the initial cost of a 5D was around $3000, thats 26.6% of the original cost. the H3D39 was originally $34,000, selling it at 13,000 is 38% of the original price.
Do you really expect technology products to hold their value??
-
I can't answer for Phase why those items are not out they did use there money on R&D to come up with a P65 like it or not that is what they did. If you don't want to buy that product than that is okay there are others but if there is no revenue there may not be anyone to buy from. Companies can only afford to lower prices to a point that if there is no profit than they go out of business. If the market keeps forcing them down in price at SOME point they will say we can't take the loses and fold up there tents. The question for us is do you want these companies to be in business and survive or watch or our MF industry fold up, let's face it there are only so many MF buyers out there, we are nothing in the industry as a percentage. Like I said it is a catch 22 and you can only take so much in losses as a company.
-
There is also a Canon 5D on ebay right now for around 800 bucks, the initial cost of a 5D was around $3000, thats 26.6% of the original cost. the H3D39 was originally $34,000, selling it at 13,000 is 38% of the original price.
Do you really expect technology products to hold their value??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226169\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No and you missed the whole point. i could care less about the used market it is what it is. I just made a point about a 10 k loss on paper in a couple weeks . I am concerned about the new market and the devaluing of the products that may put companies out of business or merge with others and than no real products for us to buy.
We need to take the YOU out of the conversation and put your shoes in the MF companies looking at this and what you as the CEO of those companies would do to survive with a limited market. Cut costs is the answer. cut R&D, cut Service , cut product development, cut warranties, cut jobs, raise prices on essential parts and service.
Okay enough of my opinion on this but this is a danger area like it or not
-
Hasselblad announced and shipped a 16mp DB for the V series about 2 years ago for under $10,000, this has the same sensor and technology that used to cost over $20,000. At the same time they came out with their 39mp back for around 32,000. Now they've dropped the price of the 39 and have come out with a 60mp for 36,000.
It seems to me that the high end back is always going to be at or near the same price, but what is becoming older technology, the 39 in this instance, will drop in price.
Hasselblad has covered their R&D expenditures put into the 39 and then some, now they will use the revenue from the 50 and 60's to work on newer products.
-
It just struck me that about 1 or 2 years ago we were just mumbling that these MFDB manufacturers were using their trade-in programs to keep used backs off the second-hand market. Hence someone who has little budget just could not buy into a MFDB system. Now that Hasselblad has decided to lower prices and forego the trade-up route, why are people still complaining?
The worst thing that can happen to MFDBs is for manufacturers in China to get hold of the knowledge and technology and then make backs for 1/16 of European and US prices. That will put ALL the current makers out of business.
-
let's make a simple model:
Assume:
we need 10k NEW MFD cameras a year, the manufacturing fee for each is 5k, the R&D
for this NEW camera is 50million(for EVERY manufacturer), then:
If there are 5 manufacturers, they all share the market, then the cost for each NEW camera is (50million*5/10k)+5k=30K
If there are 2 manufacturers, they all share the market, then the cost for each NEW camera is (50million*2/10k)+5k=15K
Now do your really want to pay the double price just for having some other choices??
I still didn't mention that if the price is 30K, then you won't see a 10k-buyers-market/year, much less than that. Then the price should not be 30k either, 50k, maybe, just like P65+ or AFI10.
But Canon is selling hundreds of other product to make up for the 5DII as a loss leader. MF companies don't have that power.
For example does anyone know how small Alpa is. Answer last I heard 3 people.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226151\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
10
-
Dont worry, we have cheap labors here, not cheap R&D:)
It just struck me that about 1 or 2 years ago we were just mumbling that these MFDB manufacturers were using their trade-in programs to keep used backs off the second-hand market. Hence someone who has little budget just could not buy into a MFDB system. Now that Hasselblad has decided to lower prices and forego the trade-up route, why are people still complaining?
The worst thing that can happen to MFDBs is for manufacturers in China to get hold of the knowledge and technology and then make backs for 1/16 of European and US prices. That will put ALL the current makers out of business.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226174\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Really, I don't get Phase One at all!!! They don't make the Sensor. They have the same mount for the sensor (as the physical size is same for all sensors) for all their backs. Kodak gives them the algorithms to convert the data from the capture to the cards. The same algorithms is given to Hasselblad. There are parameters they follow, where assumption for RGB values can be assigned, as the back maker see it fit. That's why the canned colours are slightly different from different backs. The frame of the back is still the same (think like a car manufacturer), for all their fricking models. They obviously don't listen to the photographers, as few things we ask, they don't put it in the back. They don't make the LCD screen, so tell me what do they need R & D money for?
There are so..o many business that survives, while the climate is changing, so they better adopt. Look at the watch industry, Seiko & Timex were going to destroy the Patek Phillipe, Rolex, Tag Hauer.. but they still sell those expensive watches, go to your local Border's (Chapters for all those Canadian..eh) there is even magazine that just talks @ "Watches" go figure!! Only thing Phase One has achived is you can park your Jeep on the back & take pics in rain - though don't know what happens to fungus? Now they are going to be partners with $20k + Leica - good Luck!!
-
The question for us is do you want these companies to be in business and survive or watch or our MF industry fold up, let's face it there are only so many MF buyers out there, we are nothing in the industry as a percentage. Like I said it is a catch 22 and you can only take so much in losses as a company.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226170\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Guy,
Some answers:
- nobody forced Hassy's price drop, it is their own decision,
- more diversity is better, but there are thousand of companies going down everyday. Their common characteristics is their inability to produce products at a price point where people are interested in being them. It is probably sad, but it is inevitable,
- if there is 40.000 US$ value in a P65+ considering the VARs, etc... then Phaseone will keep doing good business. If there isn't, then their price point is off and I don't see what good it does to whom to keep such a high price if customers don't see the value, or the difference in value. Owning the best gear in the world might have value as a luxury item, but makes little sense for working pros if the performance gap is too small compared to the price gap (this is the difference with high end hifi),
- the fundamental problem is not the price drop of Hassy, the problem is that a HDII39 with a 39MP resolution was until a few days ago 12 times more expensive than another excellent camera with less than twice as few pixels... There are few domains of human activity where working tools with such a small gap of performance are sold at such different prices. Notice that I am not referring to them as luxury items but as working tools,
- the inflation of price of high end photographic gear in the last 5 years is also unique. Until one month ago, it was 5 times more expensive to buy a high end MF set up compared to 5 years before. The price of film of course comes into play, but high eng 35 mm digital cameras also save on film cost and are only twice more expensive that their previous film counterparts were. It could be argued that the 1ds3 was still 4 times more expensive, but that is also an anomally that is now being corrected,
- my view has always been that MF used to be a pretty large market, and that its shrinking is mostly the consequence of the late availability of suitable MFDB and their high prices. I don't believe that high prices are a consequence of a shrinking need for MF, even if the late start did indeed induce a market shrinking. Even if 35 mm digital is now much better, then are tens of thousands of photographers out there who believe that the look of MF is different. If Nikon indeed did decide to go MX, it means that they are seeing it as a growth opportunity, meaning that there is a market for MF still.
High prices are the result of some business decisions, in terms of expetced ROI timeframe,... not necesseraliy a consequence of the actual market needs. A company like Nikon has the ability to lose money for 2 years on MX, and then start to generate revenue once the market has been re-generated. I see this as the best possible thing for photographers.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Really, I don't get Phase One at all!!! They don't make the Sensor. They have the same mount for the sensor (as the physical size is same for all sensors) for all their backs. Kodak gives them the algorithms to convert the data from the capture to the cards. The same algorithms is given to Hasselblad. There are parameters they follow, where assumption for RGB values can be assigned, as the back maker see it fit. That's why the canned colours are slightly different from different backs. The frame of the back is still the same (think like a car manufacturer), for all their fricking models. They obviously don't listen to the photographers, as few things we ask, they don't put it in the back. They don't make the LCD screen, so tell me what do they need R & D money for?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226182\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yet, they manage to get 10 minutes clean exposures from that same sensor, while Hassy can hardly do 64 seconds... so there might be some R&D being done wouldn't you think?
Unfortunately, it would seem that this strenght of Phaseone will be a bit gone with the P65+.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Guy,
Some answers:
- nobody forced Hassy's price drop, it is their own decision,
- more diversity is better, but there are thousand of companies going down everyday. Their common characteristics is their inability to produce products at a price point where people are interested in being them. It is probably sad, but it is inevitable,
- if there is 40.000 US$ value in a P65+ considering the VARs, etc... then Phaseone will keep doing good business. If there isn't, then their price point is off and I don't see what good it does to whom to keep such a high price if customers don't see the value, or the difference in value. Owning the best gear in the world might have value as a luxury item, but makes little sense for working pros if the performance gap is too small compared to the price gap (this is the difference with high end hifi),
- the fundamental problem is not the price drop of Hassy, the problem is that a HDII39 with a 39MP resolution was until a few days ago 12 times more expensive than another excellent camera with less than twice as few pixels... There are few domains of human activity where working tools with such a small gap of performance are sold at such different prices. Notice that I am not referring to them as luxury items but as working tools,
- the inflation of price of high end photographic gear in the last 5 years is also unique. Until one month ago, it was 5 times more expensive to buy a high end MF set up compared to 5 years before. The price of film of course comes into play, but high eng 35 mm digital cameras also save on film cost and are only twice more expensive that their previous film counterparts were. It could be argued that the 1ds3 was still 4 times mor
e expensive, but that is also an anomally that is now being corrected,
- my view has always been that MF used to be a pretty large market, and that its shrinking is mostly the consequence of the late availability of suitable MFDB and their high prices. I don't believe that high prices are a consequence of a shrinking need for MF, even if the late start did indeed induce a market shrinking. Even if 35 mm digital is now much better, then are tens of thousands of photographers out there who believe that the look of MF is different. If Nikon indeed did decide to go MX, it means that they are seeing it as a growth opportunity, meaning that there is a market for MF still.
High prices are the result of some business decisions, in terms of expetced ROI timeframe,... not necesseraliy a consequence of the actual market needs. A company like Nikon has the ability to lose money for 2 years on MX, and then start to generate revenue once the market has been re-generated. I see this as the best possible thing for photographers.
Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226185\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Good points Bernard , i guess i just don't want to wake up one day and see 3 mergers , 2 companies folding and nothing really great to buy from the companies we do business with today. Hate that sink or swim stuff but it is reality. And yes I agree Nikon and/or Canon can sneak in here real easy with there large revenue and try and corner this market also. I guess just a few too many question marks hanging around that bug me. Have a good night. Oops it maybe morning for you . LOL
-
Good points Bernard , i guess i just don't want to wake up one day and see 3 mergers , 2 companies folding and nothing really great to buy from the companies we do business with today. Hate that sink or swim stuff but it is reality. And yes I agree Nikon and/or Canon can sneak in here real easy with there large revenue and try and corner this market also. I guess just a few too many question marks hanging around that bug me. Have a good night. Oops it maybe morning for you . LOL
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226190\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Good night to you Guy, it is already morning already around here.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Yet, they manage to get 10 minutes clean exposures from that same sensor, while Hassy can hardly do 64 seconds... so there might be some R&D being done wouldn't you think? .....
Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226187\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
touche'
-
I think the price drop is great and I don't care why they did it. However, I do believe that MFDBs and cameras are still very expensive. Correct me if I am wrong but
the price of a film MF workhorse (Mamiya RZ, Hasselblad 500series) was, with a lens, about $3400 while a 35mm workhorse, like EOS1 VHS or Nikon F5/F6 is about $2,000. So, you are looking at a bit over 50% price differential. That I would like to see with the MFDB. With 1DsMkIII being aroung $8K, I would like to see the start base of MFDB cameras to start around $12K. That would make sense. With the base being at $18K, I still feel that they are overpriced (I am excluding the P20+ and P21+ which offer resolution less that what a 35mm offers. I believe that they are very overpriced at $14.5K for P21+ with the PhaseOne camera and I am also excluding the also overpriced Hasselblad CFV back on the 503C).
Just my thoughts.
-
If you don't want to buy that product than that is okay there are others but if there is no revenue there may not be anyone to buy from. Companies can only afford to lower prices to a point that if there is no profit than they go out of business. If the market keeps forcing them down in price at SOME point they will say we can't take the loses and fold up there tents. The question for us is do you want these companies to be in business and survive or watch or our MF industry fold up, let's face it there are only so many MF buyers out there, we are nothing in the industry as a percentage. Like I said it is a catch 22 and you can only take so much in losses as a company.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226170\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As an Aptus 75S user I have more allegiance to Leaf than to anybody, but every Digital Back maker has tried to sell me a new back in the last year and I've told them all the same thing:
"If you want to survive you're going to have to lower - not raise - your prices."
I'm actually surprised as hell that Hasselblad was the company that listened, but good for them.
If the others go out of business it's because they didn't listen to their customers.
That's Business 101.
-
As an Aptus 75S owner I have more allegiance to Leaf than to anybody, but every Digital Back maker has tried to sell me a new back in the last year and I've told them all the same thing:
"If you want to survive you're going to have to lower - not raise - your prices."
I'm actually surprised as hell that Hasselblad was the company that listened, but good for them.
If the others go out of business it's because they didn't listen to their customers.
That's Business 101.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226212\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Word up on this. I'm not going to donate money to Phase or any other MFDB maker to ensure that they can gauge me on the next model they introduce that has almost nothing I'm interested in or need. I've said the same thing you said to them: lower pries, be a high end commodity, like a BMW or Porsche. The logic being proposed here is lunacy for a business owner.
-
Good points Bernard , i guess i just don't want to wake up one day and see 3 mergers , 2 companies folding and nothing really great to buy from the companies we do business with today. Hate that sink or swim stuff but it is reality. And yes I agree Nikon and/or Canon can sneak in here real easy with there large revenue and try and corner this market also. I guess just a few too many question marks hanging around that bug me. Have a good night. Oops it maybe morning for you . LOL
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226190\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Man, you don't, I don't nobody that doesn't own these companies controls anything, mergers, growth, strategic alliances, lower prices, or trick non/trick technology.
They can do what they want and we can buy them or not. 65mpx . . . don't understand it, even for 30 grand but 45, I'd put my money in Bank Stocks first and that will happen when . . . well I think we all know when that will happen.
Still I am amazed after 5 years we're talking the same ol stuff. Waiting for an lcd as good as a point and shoot, iso that will match a camera that cost 1/10 of the price and software that comes out on time.
If any of them wants my money, give me something I can't do without, or do what Hasselblad did, sell it for less.
JR
-
i just don't think that the one company that will be left after pricing everybody out of the market will listen more to its customers then the 4 that are around now....
so i guess regardless, we will never get clean high iso and a useable screen with DMF....
-
i just don't think that the one company that will be left after pricing everybody out of the market will listen more to its customers then the 4 that are around now....
so i guess regardless, we will never get clean high iso and a useable screen with DMF....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226245\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually I have a different view - Hasselblad chose to lower price but someone else may feel that they do not want to lower price in order to compete and so they may just listen to this board and give us better LCDs, better noise at higher ISOs, better battery life, lighter backs, better reliability, better software, faster delivery of software updates etc purely to compete with Hasselblad. May not be a bad deal having more pressure on manufacturers to get them to improve. Look at Phaseone, they take ages to put C1 V4 out and where is C1 Pro V4?
-
It is interesting to read all these opinions. Does anybody really know what the profit margin for each of the Hasselblad and Phase products? I mean how much does it really cost to make each camera (including cost of the sensor) and lens. Of course some of the profit margin goes to R&D but I would really like to know the bottom line.
I for one am glad there is competition and more reasonable pricing. Mark
-
Or, Adorama'a web site to compare the Hasselblad and latest Mamiya D lens prices for a three lens kit---28, 45-90 zoom, and 150---to go with the 80mm "kit" lens. Interesting. $11,290 for the Hasselblad lenses v. $14,182 for the Mamiya lenses. The Mamiya prices are 25% higher.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226147\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sure, if you deliberately choose lenses of differing spec. The Mamiya lens is in each case better here (f/2.8 vs f.4, zoom wider on the wide end, etc.). However, if you do this fairly, spec-for-spec, then the story is different:
35/3.5: H: 3440 M: 1379
120/4: H: 3615 M: 2044
210/4: H: 3280 M: 1599
Totals: Hasselblad: 10335 Mamiya: 5022
So if you don't deliberately go looking for Mamiya lenses which are uncharacteristically expensive to match weaker-spec Hasselblad lenses, you come up with the fact that Hasselblad is twice as expensive.
-
This comparison is just not right, don't forget hassi lenses are leaf shutter ones... so maybe you should wait for mamiya to get their's out. Hm, might take a while...
Anyway, I like the price drops, but I also know a couple of peole who already have the P65s on order, and I guess every good tech has to and will buy some of those.
-
Hi
Here is my 2cents worth. Yes Hasselblad drops the price on the basic kit, good for them!
But, why would you come out with a $7000.00 USD lens ( 35-90 ) that is designed for up to the H3D11-50. Will it work for the H3D-60? Will be cropped in the camera? This just confuses me, why would you design a new lens that is not designed for the latest & greatest?
Are you committed to the latest chip size or the previous 36x48mm?
Denis
-
This comparison is just not right, don't forget hassi lenses are leaf shutter ones... so maybe you should wait for mamiya to get their's out. Hm, might take a while...
Anyway, I like the price drops, but I also know a couple of peole who already have the P65s on order, and I guess every good tech has to and will buy some of those.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226263\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Right, if you need leaf shutter lenses, then there is no point in the comparison at all. I am not sure that there is in any case, but the original comparison was quite flawed.
-
The best of the day!
It cost me more to get rid of my used wife than she cost in the first place!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226165\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
And what about the difference between a digital lens and an analogic lens? Remember that all the H series lenses are digital lenses, made for a digital sensor. Mamiya has few lenses made for digital and are more expensive than Hasselblad ones...
-
Do you remember the Pentax 645D? I think it was an error to stop that camera project. Maybe the 645 format is too large for moderate prices, but a MF system that complements the APS-C based cameras of Pentax is a good idea.
http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/P...First-Look-.htm (http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Pentax-Digital-645-Prototype-A-First-Look-.htm)
.
-
Do you remember the Pentax 645D? I think it was an error to stop that camera project. Maybe the 645 format is too large for moderate prices, but a MF system that complements the APS-C based cameras of Pentax is a good idea.
http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/P...First-Look-.htm (http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Pentax-Digital-645-Prototype-A-First-Look-.htm)
.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=226281\")
From a Photokina roundup by Thom:
"Apparently there will be no FX Pentax; the K20D and K200D will get generational changes in mid-2009, and the 645D is back on the development board (what's with the "everyone wants to be in MF trend?")."
Whole article is an interesting read: [a href=\"http://www.bythom.com/photokina2008.htm]http://www.bythom.com/photokina2008.htm[/url]
Especially the part about the economy and how camera companies can survive the recession...with regards to Hasselblad even more interesting read
-
Thanks!!!!
Really interesting !!!!!
R.
-
From a Photokina roundup by Thom:
"Apparently there will be no FX Pentax; the K20D and K200D will get generational changes in mid-2009, and the 645D is back on the development board (what's with the "everyone wants to be in MF trend?")."
Whole article is an interesting read: http://www.bythom.com/photokina2008.htm (http://www.bythom.com/photokina2008.htm)
Especially the part about the economy and how camera companies can survive the recession...with regards to Hasselblad even more interesting read
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226284\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think Hasselblad's price cuts are because they see the future. Don't think that Pentax, Nikon or Canon don't see a tough economy as the right time to use their investment dollars to move into other territory and now with the complete acceptance of digital it makes sense to see an easy to use $10,000 medium format camera. (maybe even less than $10,000).
I believe had there been an under $10,000 digital back that worked as well as a 1ds a lot of those RZ's and V's that are sitting on shelves would have gotten a more use, but nobody except Kodak attempted to come out with a really affordable medium format back and Kodak being Kodak stopped development before they really got it right.
I guess Mamiya made a stab at it with the ZD but it seemed to be too little too late.
Anyway, a medium format back that is as well thought out as a Canon or Nikon dslr and has a lower price point will open up a whole new market and knowing the Japanese, by the time they introduce it, it will probably also shoot video and self levitate.
And don't think the Japanese will worry about having to place these cameras in only specialty dealers to sell them. They'll be right there sitting next to their dlsrs in every camera store in the world.
If the current medium format makers on going to compete, they're either going to have to drop prices or offer much, much, much more usability. Probably a little bit of both.
JR
-
And don't think the Japanese will worry about having to place these cameras in only specialty dealers to sell them. They'll be right there sitting next to their dlsrs in every camera store in the world.
If the current medium format makers on going to compete, they're either going to have to drop prices or offer much, much, much more usability. Probably a little bit of both.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226332\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That is what I like about Hasselbald's new approach, and what Leica are saying: Their stuff will be off-the-shelf, available in any major camera shop. Which also means forget about al the backup issues, anything that fails daytime in any major city can just be replaced from stock.
Edmund
-
I
I believe had there been an under $10,000 digital back that worked as well as a 1ds a lot of those RZ's and V's that are sitting on shelves would have gotten a more use, but nobody except Kodak attempted to come out with a really affordable medium format back and Kodak being Kodak stopped development before they really got it right.
Absolutely right...
-
That is what I like about Hasselbald's new approach, and what Leica are saying: Their stuff will be off-the-shelf, available in any major camera shop. Which also means forget about al the backup issues, anything that fails daytime in any major city can just be replaced from stock.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226334\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Producing and shooting good photography, especially for commerce is difficult. Shooting very good photography is more than difficult and great photography is either luck or divine intervention.
Buying and using professional cameras should be easy. Actually, given the price it should be the easiest thing we do and in the 35mm world it is. For 6 years Canon has offered a professional camera that worked as easy, if not easier than a film camera. The 1ds was ground breaking. It took Nikon 6 years just to get to an even field.
I like quality products and the europeans give a tactile feel to their goods that the Japanese sometimes don't. I like specialty products that are different than what the consumer uses.
I love the look and feel of my Contax, only I wished it worked as easily as the Canons or Nikons, had high iso and a great lcd.
Then again when it comes to making photographs, it really is all about the photograph, not the camera and though the p30 gives better image quality, by the time an image goes through a lot of post production it's very hard to tell what image was shot with what camera. High iso is the great leveler and at 800, 1600 iso medium format starts to go backwards. Having a good lcd, even if you work tethered 90% of the time has more usability than anyone can know.
Try pointing most of the current medium format camera lcd's at a client and ask them if they would bet a few hundred thousand dollars that the photo they see on those lcd's are correct, the highlghts don't blow, the detail is sharp?
I find a lot of this talk and complaint about lower prices interesting, same with the brand loyalty that runs through all the blogs. It's nice that someone likes their camera and is proud of the purchase. It's nice to have new things, but as a working professional I have to look at these as tools more than luxury items.
Regardless, the moment the Japanese really get into medium format, you know things will definitely change. Medium format from that point on will become a no excuse format. You know the lcd's will be detailed, the in camera image processing fast, the build quality rock solid and the iso will be as adaptable as Tom Hanks.
And also at that point I bet the discussion becomes more about photography and less about megpaixels.
I don't see anything lately, including the Hasselblad price cuts as negative towards the industry, at least from my side of the industry. In fact I see this level of competition good, because in my profession I compete on a minute by minute basis and I know that drives me and others to be better, so given the world I compete in I find it hard to pull out the violins and start playing a sad song for the medium format makers, just because one of them lowered their prices. I'd feel different if the current backs gave me more of what I needed.
I'd feel different if the current medium format cameras were more impressive to my clients or the new ones were offering something I couldn't live without. No client knows the name, HY6, AFI or Phase. They do know Hasselbad, Nikon, Leica, Rollei and Canon.
Sure, somebody will buy a 60mpx back, probably the rental houses and use those numbers as the fear buy for their non digital savvy clients, saying you must use the largest, you must use the best, though I believe those days are coming to an end. Does anybody believe a client leaves the studio remembering that the camera had 60 or 39, 33 or 31 or 22 million pixels?
To me Leica, has the chance to fill a void between the Japanese cameras and the current medium format offerings, because they have the bling factor and are known to make great glass.
The problem is they announced something a year before they made it and you can buy it. In a year, everything can and will change, look at the Canon 5d2 and how it effected the Red Scarlet. In a year the Leica could be a full year behind and if they run the same medium format business model as what we're use to, they will be 6 months later than that.
In the film days, Kodak was large and to put it polite arrogant. Any question about price, or issues was responded to by saying, "you pros are just a small market with little profit for us". Then Fuji came in and the world changed and Kodak lost business hand over fist and never recovered the domination they once had.
Current medium format makers would do themselves a service and take note. Sure they aren't going to like having to lower prices and give real needed innovation but as a photographer most of us don't like carrying 350 lbs of computer carts, backups, drives and the fact we've become our own processing labs. The market dictated those changes and we had to evolve.
Same with the camera makers.
JR
-
i just don't think that the one company that will be left after pricing everybody out of the market will listen more to its customers then the 4 that are around now....
so i guess regardless, we will never get clean high iso and a useable screen with DMF....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226245\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You know I wouldn't bet on that. Nikon might just do it, and soon too. At one time they didn't listen to their customers and they paid the price. Now they do and are producing the goods.
Maybe that's why Hasselblad lowered their prices, they know what's coming around the bend. I've said many times before that all the MFDB makers should have sold their old backs real cheap to get customers hooked into their systems. What did they do ? They controlled the supply of their used backs to keep their prices high.
I suppose the market will decide the fate of the MFDB makers.
-
Hi
Here is my 2cents worth. Yes Hasselblad drops the price on the basic kit, good for them!
But, why would you come out with a $7000.00 USD lens ( 35-90 ) that is designed for up to the H3D11-50. Will it work for the H3D-60? Will be cropped in the camera? This just confuses me, why would you design a new lens that is not designed for the latest & greatest?
Are you committed to the latest chip size or the previous 36x48mm?
Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226264\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Interesting question. For now, it seems like Hasselblad is committed to both. So, just like you now have the choice of sensor size between the 31mp sensor and the 39mp sensor, you will have a choice of 31, 39mp, 50 and 60mp sensors in the same body. I see no reason why the availability of the 60mp full frame chip makes the 31, 39 and 50 mp chips suddenly unattractive. To the contrary, at $22K new for the H3DII-39, I think that is the sweet spot in the lineup with plenty of resolution for most applications and considerably less expensive than the H3DII-60.
I have no idea whether the 28mm HCD lens and the new HCD 35-90 zoom can be used with the 60mp chip, and if so, with what effect. Anyone know?
-
Interesting question. For now, it seems like Hasselblad is committed to both. So, just like you now have the choice of sensor size between the 31mp sensor and the 39mp sensor, you will have a choice of 31, 39mp, 50 and 60mp sensors in the same body. I see no reason why the availability of the 60mp full frame chip makes the 31, 39 and 50 mp chips suddenly unattractive. To the contrary, at $22K new for the H3DII-39, I think that is the sweet spot in the lineup with plenty of resolution for most applications and considerably less expensive than the H3DII-60.
I have no idea whether the 28mm HCD lens and the new HCD 35-90 zoom can be used with the 60mp chip, and if so, with what effect. Anyone know?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226413\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I supose the sensor will be cropped. I bit less resolution.
-
this is just incredible:
The H3DII-60 will feature a 60 megapixel sensor that provides 94% full-frame, 645 coverage. We feel that it’s important to emphasize the 94% coverage, because, although we hear the phrase 'full-frame' being used quite frequently, no manufacturer has yet achieved true medium format full-frame.”
(from the hasselblad photokina page)
And this from the camera-maker that marketed 48mm chips to be full-frame.
-
this is just incredible:
The H3DII-60 will feature a 60 megapixel sensor that provides 94% full-frame, 645 coverage. We feel that it’s important to emphasize the 94% coverage, because, although we hear the phrase 'full-frame' being used quite frequently, no manufacturer has yet achieved true medium format full-frame.”
(from the hasselblad photokina page)
And this from the camera-maker that marketed 48mm chips to be full-frame.
It looks like a new marketing VP is on board...
Cheers,
Bernard
-
It looks like a new marketing VP is on board...
Cheers,
Bernard
In all fairness Hasselblad is not the only company to use the "full frame" quote for 36x48mm. Leaf did it for a while, probably every dealer said something to that effect so in regards to film formats, only three current companies make (and sell now) real film full frame single shot cameras and that is Nikon, Canon and Sony.
All of this talk is rather silly, on another thread somebody is talking about Hasselblad's 28mm lens is actually 28point something, something something.
Just step back two feet and your good.
I'm sure the Leica will be "full frame" super 35 or whatever marketing thinks resonates. I don't get it, there are about 2 dozen reasons to buy a camera but an extra 8mm on a sensor or .8999 on a lens really isn't that important.
This is just marketing speak to get us to buy something new and who can keep track. In medium format what do we have now . . . very nearly full frame, nearly full frame, super wide full frame except for the top part, close to full frame, less than full frame, square but much smaller than full frame?
Nearly all have the same iso, close to the same characteristics, bit depth and mount on versions of old or reworked legacy film cameras with a price differential of $40,000 to $10,000 for the camera back.
Actually it's all pretty funny.
JR
-
All of this talk is rather silly, on another thread somebody is talking about Hasselblad's 28mm lens is actually 28point something, something something.
JR
That must be my post you are talking about James ... and I thought I put enough numbers behind the 28point (I used "Hasselblad 28.8967856 mm") so that it would clearly be seen as ironic. In fact I was trying to make the same point as you - referring to someone who mentioned that the 28mm actually is a 29mm ... but I failed obviously
/Frank
-
That must be my post you are talking about James ... and I thought I put enough numbers behind the 28point (I used "Hasselblad 28.8967856 mm") so that it would clearly be seen as ironic. In fact I was trying to make the same point as you - referring to someone who mentioned that the 28mm actually is a 29mm ... but I failed obviously
/Frank
I agreed with you.
What you were doing was funny. Can you imagine walking into the store and saying I want to buy a 28.897856 mm lens for my 1.16 crop, 645 camera?
JR
-
I agreed with you.
What you were doing was funny. Can you imagine walking into the store and saying I want to buy a 28.897856 mm lens for my 1.16 crop, 645 camera?
JR
I will rather call Hasselblad and complain about them using the word "full" in the same fashion others use "maverick"
FR
-
I will rather call Hasselblad and complain about them using the word "full" in the same fashion others use "maverick"
FR
or the use of word "experience", like Borat uses.
-
The people who answer the phone at Hasselblad are way too polite and politically correct to answer you appropriately. However, if they were not, we could speculate as to what they would say. I can think of a number of possibilities and I am in hysterics thinking of them.
-
Hi
Here is my 2cents worth. Yes Hasselblad drops the price on the basic kit, good for them!
But, why would you come out with a $7000.00 USD lens ( 35-90 ) that is designed for up to the H3D11-50. Will it work for the H3D-60? Will be cropped in the camera? This just confuses me, why would you design a new lens that is not designed for the latest & greatest?
Are you committed to the latest chip size or the previous 36x48mm?
Denis
Maybe because it is very good lens ... I think that H3DII 50 is latest & greatest right now
Anyway, not everybody need H3DII 60 ( you have a lot of choice : 31,39, 50 Mpix)
If you need H3DII 60, you must wait till Q2 2009, it's a lot of time. Who knows what BIG "H" will show next year. Maybe another great lens for your New H3DII 60
We have similar situation in Nikon. So, don't worry.
Freak
-
I will rather call Hasselblad and complain about them using the word "full" in the same fashion others use "maverick"
FR
Call phase as well while your at it, they use crop as well and nobody answers their ....phones!
-
Is the MF market is no longer growing?
Is Nikon about to enter it?
If yes to both of the above, what is Hasselblad’s best strategic move?
Are driving down margins and/or cutting product cycle times the most effective ways for Haselblad to kill the smaller players and consolidate share before Nikon and Canon come to the party?
-
I spent most of my time showing the HTS and Phocus 1.1.
The HTS is a very nice piece of kit (the one we were shooting with still has a few tweaks to be made) and 'Blad are expecting to ship in January (hopefully to me first:)).
The amazing thing (to me) about the HTS is that the movements (tilt/swing, rise/fall/shift and rotation) are read by sensors in the HTS and embedded in the files meta data so that Phocus can preform lens corrections. The distortion correction is particularly impressive. The corrections work with any (of the 5 supported) lenses and or extension tube combinations.
Its also worth noting that the HTS works mechanically on any H body and digital back but without the significant benefit of Lens Corrections.
Nick-T
Thanks to Nick for helping us out.
For those who are interested then here is an example of what you would see on the H LCD and the Info window in Phocus. My screen captures are from two different sessions to that's why the figures don't match. ;-)
This allows us to perform lens corrections as Nick describes above. Becomes very complex when the lens and image plane are no longer parallel.