Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: thsinar on September 25, 2008, 05:55:01 pm
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First of all my apologies for not being able to report daily and with details: times are very busy and I have found time only this evening to get online.
For those interested, here some snapshots taken during the first 3 days at our booth at the Photokina in Cologne, DE.
- general views of the Sinar booth
- details of the new Digaron 5.6/23mm and the new Schneider 150mm AF PQS
- new 90° prism finder on Sinar Hy6 65
Thierry
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First of all my apologies for not being able to report daily and with details: times are very busy and I have found time only this evening to get online.
For those interested, here some snapshots taken during the first 3 days at our booth at the Photokina in Cologne, DE.
- general views of the Sinar booth
- details of the new Digaron 5.6/23mm and the new Schneider 150mm AF PQS
- new 90° prism finder on Sinar Hy6 65
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224392\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry, you owe me a beer. I plan to come and collect. Soon. Very soon.
Edmund
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I never forget a promise!
Tomorrow would be fine for me.
in the meantime: cheers!
Thierry
Thierry, you owe me a beer. I plan to come and collect. Soon. Very soon.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224396\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I never forget a promise!
Tomorrow would be fine for me.
in the meantime: cheers!
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224397\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Nice camera .. BUT those Briese Parabolic Umbrellas hanging around everywhere make me drewl!!!!!:+}
Nice!! and the camera looks ok too..
Snook
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Thanks for posting, but... where are the Swiss gnomes? I was imagining something more like this:
(http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/gnome.jpg)
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First of all my apologies for not being able to report daily and with details: times are very busy and I have found time only this evening to get online.
For those interested, here some snapshots taken during the first 3 days at our booth at the Photokina in Cologne, DE.
- general views of the Sinar booth
- details of the new Digaron 5.6/23mm and the new Schneider 150mm AF PQS
- new 90° prism finder on Sinar Hy6 65
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224392\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How much for that AF 150/4 PQS?? I can't find one of those anywhere!
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you imagine right, but that happens only in the local beerstubs here in Cologne, in the evenings (nights) after the exhibition!
Thierry
Thanks for posting, but... where are the Swiss gnomes? I was imagining something more like this:
(http://forums.rennlist.com/upload/gnome.jpg)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224422\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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you imagine right, but that happens only in the local beerstubs here in Cologne, in the evenings (nights) after the exhibition!
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224849\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry, where's your mug shot in the pictures you posted above? nice to see who we're talking to
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I can't help but notice the irony of Sinar using the Briese Focus Reflector , considering the Sinar-Broncolor relationship and the Briese-Broncolor fracas.
What gives?
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I never forget a promise!
Tomorrow would be fine for me.
in the meantime: cheers!
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224397\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry,
Coffee or soft drinks only at the Sinar booth ? I am deeply disappointed.
Edmund
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The stand of Sinar at the Photokina what so little that it was nothing to see, excepts the new models. No 4/5 or 8/10, no Sinar m HR28..., no DB shutters, no film holders, no CMV, CAB or Sinaron digital lenses to see anyway.
A very poor and strange demonstration.
But there was - of course - an asiatic model to make a very conventional show. Like Hasselblad, or Canon, Nikon, Olympus, etc... Like an autoshow in Tokyo. A very good period for the asiatic look.
For me, the Photokina should be the best place to see all the professional products, because local dealers (when they exist) can't have this products in stock.
My deception is deep.
PdF
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There was a HR 28 on Sinar m ! Sorry.
But, where was all the rest ?
PdF
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There was a HR 28 on Sinar m ! Sorry.
But, where was all the rest ?
PdF
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224897\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
havent you seen the artec, the 23mm lens, exposure with white shading , the hy accessories, new lenses, the spirit back, ME , and so on?
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havent you seen the artec, the 23mm lens, exposure with white shading , the hy accessories, new lenses, the spirit back, ME , and so on?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224899\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Of course I did, and with happyness !
But some absences (blackouts ?) are unbelievable...
PdF
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Philippe,
There was (and still is) following products displayed and shown in live situations:
- Sinar arTec with eMotion 75 back and VHR 5.6/23mm
- Sinar arTec with eMotion 75 back and Sinaron Digital 70mm
- Sinar m with Sinaron Digital HR 28mm
- Sinar p3 with Schneider shutter and lens, LC-shutter, sliding adapter and multishot back eVolution 75 H
- Sinar Hy6 65 camera system with 180 AFD lens and 90° prism finder
- Sinar Hy6 with Sinarback eSprit 65, 80mm AFD lens and waist level finder
- Sinar Hy6 with Sinarback eMotion 75 LV, 150mm AF lens and 45° finder
- Sinar Hy6 with Sinarback eSprit 65 in LIVE-SHOOTING with all Hy6 lenses and accessories
- Sinar calibrated DNG Workflow, from shooting to print
- 2 stations with Sinar eXposure 6.1 capture software for Mac
- 1 station with Sinar eXposure 6.1 capture software for Windows
Where is the problem?!
Best regards,
Thierry
There was a HR 28 on Sinar m ! Sorry.
But, where was all the rest ?
PdF
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224897\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I would not to be involved in controversy.
I prefer to stop my interventions in this topic, because I would'nt be sarcastic.
Please excuse me, Thierry, when I'm too vindictive.
"Qui aime bien, châtie bien !"
PdF
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as you say, EPd, your opinion. And actually only a question of taste nothing worse to be argued and discussed, IMO.
I would rather like to argue your ""Sinar had a very limited selection of lenses for the Hy6": you must be joking (or blind). We had all the available (new) selection of lenses for the Hy6 (AF, non-AF, AFD) on display, behind the setups. The lenses selected for the setups were the newest AFD's and the new 150 AF, and it was possible to ask the demonstrators to test another focal length.
As for accessories, they were all on the cameras, including the 90° finder.
A pity that you have not introduced yourself to me or ask to meet me. It would have been a plaisure to show you around.
Best regards,
Thierry
I was a bit disappointed with the Sinar presentation as well. Not so much because of "missing" equipment, but the design of the playground did not "embrace" me at all. Especially the closed "office" in the back, with the darkened windows gave a rather "unheimisch" feeling. Like you had to climb up to a dark castle which wasn't going to open its gates. The lighting of the entire place was very poor too (dim and yellow), especially that Hy6 corner with the miniature boat. And speaking Hy6: Leaf had all available lenses for the AFi and a lot of accessories on display, whereas Sinar only had a (very) limited selection. Not inviting at all. The arTec corner was a bit better though, with a good setup to have a look at the camera and getting explanation at the same time. The only thing I was missing there was a good opportunity to get to see the camera from the front before you got there. It would have been nice to place one high up behind the demonstrators as well. Just my personal opinion of course.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225228\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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EPd,
sorry about that and for not having been available: you should/could have asked for me.
You are right, concerning the booth and improvements: we actually collect all remarks, internal or from visitors, and discuss them for the next exhibition. But so far we have got a majority of positive response to the atmosphere part of it. So that's why I say it's a question of taste, not to sy that I don't bother about other tastes.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
I have been hanging around there for quite some time, but you were in deep conversation with someone, so I moved on after having seen ALL that there was to see. Yes, I saw the lenses in the back displays too, but did you see what Leaf had in their booth? Bellows, macro rings, more lenses (also older types). My impressions of the athmosphere are about taste, naturally, but when I go to see a movie in a theatre and I don't like it, does the film maker have to say: "that's his problem"? Or could he perhaps give it a second thought and try to analyse what could have been improved to his film? For the next time, maybe.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225593\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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EPd,
sorry about that and for not having been available: you should/could have asked for me.
You are right, concerning the booth and improvements: we actually collect all remarks, internal or from visitors, and discuss them for the next exhibition. But so far we have got a majority of positive response to the atmosphere part of it. So that's why I say it's a question of taste, not to sy that I don't bother about other tastes.
Best regards,
Thierry
Hello, Thierry! If you do not mind I have some questions:
I do not see the Evolution back in your listing. Did Sinar not have shown that one? Maybe because it is still not working properly and they still did not manage to establish Exposure support for the 75H??
Best regards
Nico, Berlin
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Hi all,
I think that Sinar booth was nice. I saw everything that i want to see. I don;t hear all the time " PERFECTLY " for answer to my questions. On Phase booth i hear it all the time. Another thing, they show me everything what i want to see and tell me about everything. Big P like PRO. ( I was working on Hasselblad booth during fairs) Leaf and Phase guys don't want to talk about theirs product. It was a little bit strange. On Sinar booth you could also met and talk with Mr. Briese about theirs lamps. And of corse see this nice equipment in action. So it was very nice place, where we could see everything and be informed about everything.
Freak
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Work hard and be nice to people
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There was the eVolution 75h on the p3. The camera was instaled on a very nice Foba motorized stand,operated from the CatureShop. (both , the stand and the 75h).
Yevgeny
p[quo name='Nicolas Flamel' date='Oct 8 2008, 12:57 AM' post='227534']
Hello, Thierry! If you do not mind I have some questions:
I do not see the Evolution back in your listing. Did Sinar not have shown that one? Maybe because it is still not working properly and they still did not manage to establish Exposure support for the 75H??
Best regards
Nico, Berlin
[/quote]
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Dear Nico,
I did forget to list the station with the eVolution 75 H Sinarback: it WAS displayed. It was mounted on a Sinar p3 camera, together with the Schneider shutter, on a setup.
The eVolution 75 H is integrated and supported by Sinar eXposure 6.1.
Best regards,
Thierry
Hello, Thierry! If you do not mind I have some questions:
I do not see the Evolution back in your listing. Did Sinar not have shown that one? Maybe because it is still not working properly and they still did not manage to establish Exposure support for the 75H??
Best regards
Nico, Berlin
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Dear Nico,
I did forget to list the station with the eVolution 75 H Sinarback: it WAS displayed. It was mounted on a Sinar p3 camera, together with the Schneider shutter, on a setup.
The eVolution 75 H is integrated and supported by Sinar eXposure 6.1.
Best regards,
Thierry
Sorry, Thierry, I missed that one. I am a bit annoyed bebause Exposure is still not available for the Evolution amd my 54M. And Capture Shop is still not working properly sometimes (Shortcuts do not work, crashdown when quitting...)
I am still waiting for the centerfold problem with the 75H which occasionally occurs to be solved. And I wait for more than one year now! What I do see is that Sinar celebrate themselves and their new products whilst the old ones not all work as they should.
Best regards
Nico
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Too many products. Maybe Sinar should just concentrate on revving the Hy6 body, get a royalty from Leaf, design and market lenses, provide after sales service for the mechanics, and get out of the back business where everyone redesigns electronics and software around the same sensors.
Edmund
Sorry, Thierry, I missed that one. I am a bit annoyed bebause Exposure is still not available for the Evolution amd my 54M. And Capture Shop is still not working properly sometimes (Shortcuts do not work, crashdown when quitting...)
I am still waiting for the centerfold problem with the 75H which occasionally occurs to be solved. And I wait for more than one year now! What I do see is that Sinar celebrate themselves and their new products whilst the old ones not all work as they should.
Best regards
Nico
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Too many products. Maybe Sinar should just concentrate on revving the Hy6 body, get a royalty from Leaf, design and market lenses, provide after sales service for the mechanics, and get out of the back business where everyone redesigns electronics and software around the same sensors.
Edmund
If Nikon and Canon release their version of MF Camera late this or next year, it will be
hard to deal with current/available MF market based on what's left on the table....
Hasselblad and Phase hold the edge so far obviously because they're available on every corner
of the world at any time...
However, Hy6 is an excellent camera and I would make it available everywhere and to everyone.....
but to do that and not only reach every corner of the World.... to survive, Hy6 needs boost and PHASEONE could come handy!!!
Nothing against Leaf or Sinar since I own number of their systems too!!!
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Dear Nico,
I am not sure what Sinar did celebrate or is celebrating.
Coming to your questions:
- I have informed that we have decided to release eXposure in 3 weeks, end of October: we wish to release BOTH Mac AND PC eXposure version 6.1 at the same time and all configurations have to be tested.
- as said, eXposure 6.1 does support the eVolution 75H.
Best regards,
Thierry
Sorry, Thierry, I missed that one. I am a bit annoyed bebause Exposure is still not available for the Evolution amd my 54M. And Capture Shop is still not working properly sometimes (Shortcuts do not work, crashdown when quitting...)
I am still waiting for the centerfold problem with the 75H which occasionally occurs to be solved. And I wait for more than one year now! What I do see is that Sinar celebrate themselves and their new products whilst the old ones not all work as they should.
Best regards
Nico
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Too many products. Maybe Sinar should just concentrate on revving the Hy6 body, get a royalty from Leaf, design and market lenses, provide after sales service for the mechanics, and get out of the back business where everyone redesigns electronics and software around the same sensors.
Edmund
I don't agree with you, Edmund.
People like to use the same material for a long time. Then could it be valuable for some works. It's impossible to buy new platforms every year.
The Hy6 is a very good material (I've tried it), but unusable for my job. I only work with a tecnical camera in 4 (or 16) shots mode. I would appreciate a best return of Sinar for this kind of material.
Sinar promised, two years ago, versions of eXposure for 54H and 43H backs. Whe are still waiting... They said they are too busy with the H6 !
PdF
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Too many products. Maybe Sinar should just concentrate on revving the Hy6 body, get a royalty from Leaf, design and market lenses, provide after sales service for the mechanics, and get out of the back business where everyone redesigns electronics and software around the same sensors.
A marriage made in Heaven:
1. Using CaptureOne software (the best).
2. Using Hy6 camera (very good).
3. Using Phase backs (with better LCD?).
4. USA presence (needed by Sinar).
I would welcome that.
I just don't see it happening, in this radically shrinking economy. Not enough volume. Like it or not, it's quickly becoming a 5DII world out there. I even heard my Dentist talking about the Canon recently. You KNOW it's bad when talk turns from Leica/Sinar to Canon. But with Universal Health Care coming soon, the Dentists will be back in business. Trust me, the entire country of Denmark and Sweden are banking on Obama.
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A marriage made in Heaven:
1. Using CaptureOne software (the best).
2. Using Hy6 camera (very good).
3. Using Phase backs (with better LCD?).
4. USA presence (needed by Sinar).
I would welcome that.
I just don't see it happening, in this radically shrinking economy. Not enough volume. Like it or not, it's quickly becoming a 5DII world out there. I even heard my Dentist talking about the Canon recently. You KNOW it's bad when talk turns from Leica/Sinar to Canon. But with Universal Health Care coming soon, the Dentists will be back in business. Trust me, the entire country of Denmark and Sweden are banking on Obama.
Be careful. every time someone mentions a 5d, these forums go into catatonic fits about the loss of quality, the loss of standards, the low professionalism that the photography industry has sunk to.
Of course most of the people that soap box this aren't shooting large projects with millions of dollars, euros and pounds on the line in production and media.
Of course every professional photographer in the world will probably have a 5d Mark II in their bag in 3 months and if Nikon or Canon makes a medium format camera you can bet those will also sell off the shelf in record numbers.
Like it or not if you go into most studios in NY today, if medium format is being used it's probably on a Hasselblad camera with a Phase back, maybe a 1/3 to 1/4 using a Leaf or Hasselblad back. You would have to search very hard to find someone using a Sinar and even further still to find someone using a mamiya 645, regardless if it's versions I, II, or III.
Once they go outside it usually with a Hasselblad camera or a Canon.
These are the photographers that use the rental system and they really don't care or know anything about digital other than what the rental tech hands them. Also these are the photographers that are producing the best work in the world, but even the best work in the world is getting hit hard on budget today.
Look at the background videos of every Vogue, Vanity Fare or Elle production and all you see are Canon and Hasselblad cameras. No wonder Hasselblad wants part of that camera back business and if they keep dropping their prices, they're going to get it.
I don't look for medium format to die, but I do know that if the prices keep going up and projects become more limited, or budget restricted, then that goes all the way down the line to the tech who will also have to find ways to lower their overhead. If Mamiya thinks any digital tech house is going to scrap their H1's and H2's and pay $4,000 for Mamiya lenses, or double that for Leica lenses, then somebody is reading the wrong tea leaves.
Maybe not their backs, but Hasselblad cameras are the standard in the medium format world. Now, Hasselblad has addressed costs, everybody else hasn't. The only thing Hasselblad hasn't done is give a digital tech a reason to throw away their phase backs, because Hasselblad still has the same low iso, same sensors, even worse software than Phase one, so why change until the Phase backs wear out.
We can make all the wish lists we want, phase software, HY6 cameras, Hasselblad prices, but until any of this equipment is in the rental houses and digital tech firms it's all irrelevant.
Until Sinar has their software working, gets more presence in the rental world and finds a way not to take 2 years to make a cable release that camera will also be irrelevant.
Unless Phase wakes up and realizes that $41,000 digital backs, even with a free Mamiya won't fly in the new world economy, then they are trying very hard to make that brand irrelevant also.
Leaf and Sinar can make all the back room deals they want but rather than offer Sinar a deal on the new Leaf back, Leaf would be a lot better off offering the customer the same discount.
The whole hy6 system being limited to two brands of backs is just insane. Prior to digital, nobody would have ever made an expensive film camera that only worked with Ilford and Agfa film.
That would have never cleared committee.
These forums are full of self interest. Hasselblad lovers, Hasselblad haters, dealers, techs, manufacturer reps, seminar givers, lighting instructors and all of them want us to absolutely believe we can't make a photograph without spending another $15,000 for a new camera upgrade that doesn't do anything that much different than the previous model.
Today, it's all about money and getting the job done in the most efficient way possible.
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Dear bcooter,
With all due respect, let me correct some points:
Until Sinar has their software working, gets more presence in the rental world and finds a way not to take 2 years to make a cable release that camera will also be irrelevant.
The software (eXposure) IS working and out: not all backs are integrated, but nevertheless you should try it out before bashing it down.
Leaf and Sinar can make all the back room deals they want but rather than offer Sinar a deal on the new Leaf back, Leaf would be a lot better off offering the customer the same discount.
Sinar DOES AS WELL have something to offer in this cooperation: read the press release carefully.
The whole hy6 system being limited to two brands of backs is just insane. Prior to digital, nobody would have ever made an expensive film camera that only worked with Ilford and Agfa film.
I doubt the fault can be given to Sinar (understand Jenoptik) on this one.
These forums are full of self interest. Hasselblad lovers, Hasselblad haters, dealers, techs, manufacturer reps, seminar givers, lighting instructors and all of them want us to absolutely believe we can't make a photograph without spending another $15,000 for a new camera upgrade that doesn't do anything that much different than the previous model.
Today, it's all about money and getting the job done in the most efficient way possible.
Your own opinion ("... manufacturer reps ... want us to believe ...") , I have heard different ones: as for myself, if I would have to act like this, I would not spend one minute on any forum, but rather go out, demonstrate and sell.
Best regards,
Thierry
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I don't agree with you, Edmund.
People like to use the same material for a long time. Then could it be valuable for some works. It's impossible to buy new platforms every year.
The Hy6 is a very good material (I've tried it), but unusable for my job. I only work with a tecnical camera in 4 (or 16) shots mode. I would appreciate a best return of Sinar for this kind of material.
Sinar promised, two years ago, versions of eXposure for 54H and 43H backs. Whe are still waiting... They said they are too busy with the H6 !
PdF
I'm sorry PDF - I meant they should drop the back side of things, stop releasing new backs. It simply doesn't make sense anymore to have different back models if more R&D s required for each.
Edmund
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A marriage made in Heaven:
1. Using CaptureOne software (the best).
2. Using Hy6 camera (very good).
3. Using Phase backs (with better LCD?).
4. USA presence (needed by Sinar).
I would welcome that.
I just don't see it happening, in this radically shrinking economy. Not enough volume. Like it or not, it's quickly becoming a 5DII world out there. I even heard my Dentist talking about the Canon recently. You KNOW it's bad when talk turns from Leica/Sinar to Canon. But with Universal Health Care coming soon, the Dentists will be back in business. Trust me, the entire country of Denmark and Sweden are banking on Obama.
I don't know about Denmark or Sweden, but when President Bush took office the world had a functioning economy and no major war. Now he's leaving office, there are two major wars, one in Afghanistan and one in Irak, with US airstrikes in a third country, Pakistan, on an everyday basis. Turkey, a NATO member, is now fighting an insurgency based in Iraqi Kurdistan but attacking inside Turkey, and armed with US weapons, which the US claims are misappropriated. America is frightened of terror attacks and with occasional reports of torture by US soldiers and contractors in black holes like Guantanamo, America has lost the moral high ground it could unreservedly claim in the year 2000. And the economy is in tatters, with high oil prices, major bank failures and house foreclosures by the hundreds of thousands. No one can say that Mr. Bush is responsible, but he sure has been unlucky. No wonder that observers in foreign countries hope that a new president, any new president, be it Obama or McCain will bring better management and better luck to a most deserving country. And better economic circumstances to the rest of the world. No politics involved - the guy has done a really bad job let's just hope he can be replaced before the damage gets too bad.
Edmund
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Of course most of the people that soap box this aren't shooting large projects with millions of dollars, euros and pounds on the line in production and media.
Big Cooter,
Hall of Fame post. You live in the real world.
Yet, of course, Thierry fights every word you say.
That's why Sinar is where they're at.
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gwhift,
Yet, of course, Thierry fights every word you say.
Am not in war, even less fighting, simply spending my time to correct some either purposely or by mistake wrong information (about Sinar).
That's why Sinar is where they're at.
And where is Sinar?
Best regards,
Thierry
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Too many products. Maybe Sinar should just concentrate on revving the Hy6 body, get a royalty from Leaf, design and market lenses, provide after sales service for the mechanics, and get out of the back business where everyone redesigns electronics and software around the same sensors.
Edmund
Why on earth would they do that? The latest eSprit 65 back is the most advanced medium format back yet made. If that is a sign of things to come from Sinar, maybe some of the other players should hang up their gloves. The fact that they don't have the biggest market share now is no indication of what could happen in the future, or the quality of their products now.
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If Nikon and Canon release their version of MF Camera late this or next year, it will be
hard to deal with current/available MF market based on what's left on the table....
Why on earth do people keep assuming that Canikon will be able to take over the MF market just like that? Unlike all the other platforms, they will have no exisiting lenses, so they would need to launch a new platform with at least 5 or 6 lenses to begin with, and everything would have to be bought new (this is the problem Leica has with the S2). This already puts them at a massive disadvantage compared to the existing players. Then there is the issue of lens quality - how many people out there would trust Canon to make a wide angle lens that is sharp from corner to corner on a large sensor? You must be kidding. (Leica glass, on the other hand, will be taken very seriously). Or the 'per pixel' quality? They've never made a sensor to match the sheer IQ of even a 3 year old MFDB. They have a LOT to prove. If they feel that the whole industry will move to larger sensors then perhaps they will do it but I doubt the system will be anything to get excited about, and it won't be cheap. Not for many years at least.
Hasselblad and Phase hold the edge so far obviously because they're available on every corner of the world at any time...
Hmmm, there isn't a Hasselblad dealer or a Phase dealer in this country at all. Not all the world is like NY! Why does a dealer have to be next door anyway? I got my back couriered overnight from Germany. No big deal.
to survive, Hy6 needs boost and PHASEONE could come handy!!!
I doubt the Hy6 needs Phase at all. Look at the recent poll of which platform people would buy into if given the choice today, and the Hy6 leads the poll. Hasselblad and Phase got an early lead with past products (deservedly so), but they haven't done anything interesting lately if you ask me.
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Everyone should read bcooter's post quoted below. Everyone thinking that a new back or camera system will better their photography should read the post. Take everything you read on the web with a grain of salt. You have people on this board and all the other gear forums pushing their agenda one way or the other, which is different than sharing an opinion. Its marketing, even if they don't work for a company. They tell you how shitty the Canons are, how unworkable 1/125 sync is, how good photography can't be produced without a leaf shutter and at the minimum 31 megapixels. When you see the work they produce with all this gear its technicaly good but really midling stuff. Don't spend the money on a back if your book is lacking or you don't know how to light. The difference between a 5D and a P30 aint that much. If you need the quality of an MFDB for a job, rent. If the budget doesn't allow for a big rental, well, the 5D2/5D/1ds/1ds2/1ds3/D1x etc will have to do. And guess what? If you shoot well and have a certain level of taste, your work will be well received. A back and the whole system soaks up too much working capital. Spend the money on something that will improve your book.
Be careful. every time someone mentions a 5d, these forums go into catatonic fits about the loss of quality, the loss of standards, the low professionalism that the photography industry has sunk to.
Of course most of the people that soap box this aren't shooting large projects with millions of dollars, euros and pounds on the line in production and media.
Of course every professional photographer in the world will probably have a 5d Mark II in their bag in 3 months and if Nikon or Canon makes a medium format camera you can bet those will also sell off the shelf in record numbers.
Like it or not if you go into most studios in NY today, if medium format is being used it's probably on a Hasselblad camera with a Phase back, maybe a 1/3 to 1/4 using a Leaf or Hasselblad back. You would have to search very hard to find someone using a Sinar and even further still to find someone using a mamiya 645, regardless if it's versions I, II, or III.
Once they go outside it usually with a Hasselblad camera or a Canon.
These are the photographers that use the rental system and they really don't care or know anything about digital other than what the rental tech hands them. Also these are the photographers that are producing the best work in the world, but even the best work in the world is getting hit hard on budget today.
Look at the background videos of every Vogue, Vanity Fare or Elle production and all you see are Canon and Hasselblad cameras. No wonder Hasselblad wants part of that camera back business and if they keep dropping their prices, they're going to get it.
I don't look for medium format to die, but I do know that if the prices keep going up and projects become more limited, or budget restricted, then that goes all the way down the line to the tech who will also have to find ways to lower their overhead. If Mamiya thinks any digital tech house is going to scrap their H1's and H2's and pay $4,000 for Mamiya lenses, or double that for Leica lenses, then somebody is reading the wrong tea leaves.
Maybe not their backs, but Hasselblad cameras are the standard in the medium format world. Now, Hasselblad has addressed costs, everybody else hasn't. The only thing Hasselblad hasn't done is give a digital tech a reason to throw away their phase backs, because Hasselblad still has the same low iso, same sensors, even worse software than Phase one, so why change until the Phase backs wear out.
We can make all the wish lists we want, phase software, HY6 cameras, Hasselblad prices, but until any of this equipment is in the rental houses and digital tech firms it's all irrelevant.
Until Sinar has their software working, gets more presence in the rental world and finds a way not to take 2 years to make a cable release that camera will also be irrelevant.
Unless Phase wakes up and realizes that $41,000 digital backs, even with a free Mamiya won't fly in the new world economy, then they are trying very hard to make that brand irrelevant also.
Leaf and Sinar can make all the back room deals they want but rather than offer Sinar a deal on the new Leaf back, Leaf would be a lot better off offering the customer the same discount.
The whole hy6 system being limited to two brands of backs is just insane. Prior to digital, nobody would have ever made an expensive film camera that only worked with Ilford and Agfa film.
That would have never cleared committee.
These forums are full of self interest. Hasselblad lovers, Hasselblad haters, dealers, techs, manufacturer reps, seminar givers, lighting instructors and all of them want us to absolutely believe we can't make a photograph without spending another $15,000 for a new camera upgrade that doesn't do anything that much different than the previous model.
Today, it's all about money and getting the job done in the most efficient way possible.
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Maybe not their backs, but Hasselblad cameras are the standard in the medium format world.
Standards can change, and quickly. It wasn't so long ago that the Hass H platform didn't even exist.
We can make all the wish lists we want, phase software, HY6 cameras, Hasselblad prices, but until any of this equipment is in the rental houses and digital tech firms it's all irrelevant.
A very US-centric point of view. I have yet to meet a photographer in Europe who rents his camera. They might exist but they are an insignificant minority. NY might be different, but even in the US not every city has a pro rental shop with MFDBs.
Until Sinar has their software working, gets more presence in the rental world and finds a way not to take 2 years to make a cable release that camera will also be irrelevant.
Sinar Exposure works fine, thanks. I used Capture One for years too, and I shave no preference for either. They both just work.
The cable release was up to F&H to produce, not Sinar.
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If you need the quality of an MFDB for a job, rent.
Rentals are not easy to find in most parts of the world, but more importantly I think a photographer has no hope of getting the most out of a MFDB without spending quite some time with it, experimenting with the files and workflow, and testing the capabilities. Who wants to be playing around with an unfamiliar back on an important job?
I see it here time and time again - people try out a demo MFDB for a few hours and have all sorts of problems with processing the files. MFDBs are not made that way - they need lots of user input and in return you get the highest quality and flexibility. If you want an 'auto everything' camera, MFDB is not for you.
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I don't know about Denmark or Sweden, but when President Bush took office the world had a functioning economy and no major war. Now he's leaving office, there are two major wars, one in Afghanistan and one in Irak, with US airstrikes in a third country, Pakistan, on an everyday basis. Turkey, a NATO member, is now fighting an insurgency based in Iraqi Kurdistan but attacking inside Turkey, and armed with US weapons, which the US claims are misappropriated. America is frightened of terror attacks and with occasional reports of torture by US soldiers and contractors in black holes like Guantanamo, America has lost the moral high ground it could unreservedly claim in the year 2000. And the economy is in tatters, with high oil prices, major bank failures and house foreclosures by the hundreds of thousands. No one can say that Mr. Bush is responsible, but he sure has been unlucky. No wonder that observers in foreign countries hope that a new president, any new president, be it Obama or McCain will bring better management and better luck to a most deserving country. And better economic circumstances to the rest of the world. No politics involved - the guy has done a really bad job let's just hope he can be replaced before the damage gets too bad.
Edmund
hey dr. R.. thanks for the world analysis but who asked?? I will spare you my thoughts on the French and their moral terra firma on which they stand and you try to not pontificate..
I realize that Europeans have things so buttoned-up and civilized so I know I am asking a lot to just sit back and watch us flounder.. but do try to contain your vast knowledge and insight, stick to what this forum is about.
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Rentals are not easy to find in most parts of the world, but more importantly I think a photographer has no hope of getting the most out of a MFDB without spending quite some time with it, experimenting with the files and workflow, and testing the capabilities. Who wants to be playing around with an unfamiliar back on an important job?
I see it here time and time again - people try out a demo MFDB for a few hours and have all sorts of problems with processing the files. MFDBs are not made that way - they need lots of user input and in return you get the highest quality and flexibility. If you want an 'auto everything' camera, MFDB is not for you.
Edited to add: This applies to fashion. I know that other genres are different.
There is a benefit to owning, surely, but the type of production that requires and MFDB should have a budget for a tech and a retoucher. The tech will tell you how to get the shot you want, while you can work with a retoucher who will develope the file to the look you want. I'm not against ownership of a MFDB, I just want people to know its not important to making a good photograph, and more importantly, can actually be detrimental to acheiving a great photograph due to handling/iso/flexability issues. An MFDB threatens a career as well, in that all that working calital is tied up in a back rather than in front of the camera. You would do much better to produce some high end photography and shoot it with an RZ on Fuji 160C or a 5D/1ds/1ds2/1ds3/d2x and travel, go on look sees on another continent, shoot editorials on another continent. That work will get you commercial jobs that pay more in three days than you made in your entire 20's. Then buy a back, maybe. It still doesn't make business sense to own.
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I'm sorry PDF - I meant they should drop the back side of things, stop releasing new backs. It simply doesn't make sense anymore to have different back models if more R&D s required for each.
Edmund
Thank you for this answer, Edmund : I totaly agree with your opinion.
PdF
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hey dr. R.. thanks for the world analysis but who asked?? I will spare you my thoughts on the French and their moral terra firma on which they stand and you try to not pontificate..
I realize that Europeans have things so buttoned-up and civilized so I know I am asking a lot to just sit back and watch us flounder.. but do try to contain your vast knowledge and insight, stick to what this forum is about.
Paul
you are right about this forum not being another huffingtonpost.com - still you might agree that whenever something important happens in the US it ultimately has a strong effect on the rest of the world (Fannie / Freddie / Irak ...). So you may understand that Europeans have a hard time "sitting back"
Never mind
Frank
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Everyone should read bcooter's post quoted below. Everyone thinking that a new back or camera system will better their photography should read the post. Take everything you read on the web with a grain of salt. You have people on this board and all the other gear forums pushing their agenda one way or the other, which is different than sharing an opinion. Its marketing, even if they don't work for a company. They tell you how shitty the Canons are, how unworkable 1/125 sync is, how good photography can't be produced without a leaf shutter and at the minimum 31 megapixels. When you see the work they produce with all this gear its technicaly good but really midling stuff. Don't spend the money on a back if your book is lacking or you don't know how to light. The difference between a 5D and a P30 aint that much. If you need the quality of an MFDB for a job, rent. If the budget doesn't allow for a big rental, well, the 5D2/5D/1ds/1ds2/1ds3/D1x etc will have to do. And guess what? If you shoot well and have a certain level of taste, your work will be well received. A back and the whole system soaks up too much working capital. Spend the money on something that will improve your book.
TMARK & Bcooter - well said.
/Frank
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I seem to remember that until now, all Sinar backs were adaptable to other camera manufacturers, and still are. Im no Phase or Hasselblad expert so correct me if i'm wrong but aren't or weren't they dedicated backs?
With reference to most of what you are saying, it boils down to Quality vs Money. I remember that most photographers bought their equipment based on the quality the equipment would produce and this is what created revenue, largely because people knew what quality was. now there is so much sacrifice in the digital market that everyone is debating about which camera system is better, when in fact it seems to be a justification of thier own equipment. My understanding is as it is the case where I'm from is that the client is uneducated or has a preference. Please dont get me wrong here, I am not slandering anyone but just saying the way i see it.
I live in South Africa where Photography and media is so minuscule compared to the US and Europe and we have a really small studio in comparison to other professional photographers in our city, yet the clients that leave us for photographers with a better name (through referrals and marketing), the client comes straight back because the other photographers could not give them the quality. We make our money! With regards to software, the Sinar software is probably the easiest to use because it is not an image manipulation tool in the sense that it does not allow you to add effects as you would in Photoshop. what would be the use of Photoshop then. Captureshop an eXposure allows the photographer to capture what the camera sees not what the photographer knows the client wants to see. If we are comparing film to digital here, since when did Ilford or Agfa allow you to decide whether to export your image with a preset!
Bottom line is that it boils down to quality, people can still see quality even if they are ignorant. Us as informed photographers know when software is compensating for camera shortfalls and lastly we all have our own preference of out-put.
The whole hy6 system being limited to two brands of backs is just insane. Prior to digital, nobody would have ever made an expensive film camera that only worked with Ilford and Agfa film.
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Paul
you are right about this forum not being another huffingtonpost.com - still you might agree that whenever something important happens in the US it ultimately has a strong effect on the rest of the world (Fannie / Freddie / Irak ...). So you may understand that Europeans have a hard time "sitting back"
Never mind
Frank
yes we are all connected on some levels..and on that note, some good news for the americans.. the dollar getting stronger against the euro - should make it a small bit easier for me get that euro equipment I know I shouldn't want.. but do.
I had 2.5 of the last 3 years in europe and all the while I just sat there and listened to all the anti american dribble that gets put out there.. cause I was in their country, I would just let them spew..I guess now being back in the states, I don't have the stomach for it.
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yes we are all connected on some levels..and on that note, some good news for the americans.. the dollar getting stronger against the euro - should make it a small bit easier for me get that euro equipment I know I shouldn't want.. but do.
I had 2.5 of the last 3 years in europe and all the while I just sat there and listened to all the anti american dribble that gets put out there.. cause I was in their country, I would just let them spew..I guess now being back in the states, I don't have the stomach for it.
No worries Paul,
not every European is anti american as well as not every american behaves as if they do not care about the rest of the planet
cheers
F.
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... and I like your "Urban Landscape" portfolio
/F
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but the type of production that requires and MFDB should have a budget for a tech and a retoucher.
Wow, not in my world. I wish
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Rentals are not easy to find in most parts of the world, but more importantly I think a photographer has no hope of getting the most out of a MFDB without spending quite some time with it, experimenting with the files and workflow, and testing the capabilities. Who wants to be playing around with an unfamiliar back on an important job?
I see it here time and time again - people try out a demo MFDB for a few hours and have all sorts of problems with processing the files. MFDBs are not made that way - they need lots of user input and in return you get the highest quality and flexibility. If you want an 'auto everything' camera, MFDB is not for you.
What you say is true and works for you, but I doubt if your Sinar's intended market, given that you are shopping for used lenses and still use a 6008. If Sinar relies on your money they will go broke.
There is nothing wrong with your process and you should be commended if your making the photographs you want.
There is nothing wrong with buying any camera, lens, or digital back if you can afford it and it makes you feel good, but don't think a Sinar, Hasselblad, Phase, or Leaf is going to make anyone a better photographer.
There is nothing wrong with Sinar other than they are nowhere in the world of New York advertising and editorial and that may rub Theirry the wrong way, but Theirry needs to walk through the Piers and stick his nose into all of the studios and see how big a presence Sinar has.
As far as where money is allocated Theirry should talk to the digital lab or the box and just see how much they charge to work an image. Then I think a lot of people here would understand where the real pixels meet the paper and it's not from the sensor, or the "pure" nature of capture shop. It's from a team of three people working 8 hours each in photoshop for one image.
What gwhfithw (whatever) says makes sense in that he attempted to talk to someone at Sinar and buy a camera. He sees it at Photokina and he wants to talk about buying it.
Then, all of a sudden it makes no sense because the camera can't be purchased now so it's off his radar. All the makers should think about that the next time they start constructing displays for Photokina.
Strike when the iron is hot.
Before you say that this comment is only U.S. centric, it's not, it's New York centric and like it or not New York is the capital of all advertising and editorial. In all truth, I am sure there are more non U.S. born photographers trolling the streets than there are natives. New York in the world of photography is the largest melting pot of anywhere on the planet and I don't think New York really believes that it is connected to anything but New York.
What I wrote is not to sabotage Sinar or medium format. I wrote this to sound the wake up call. It is also not to say anything bad about the Hy6 it looks like a good camera but I know if the real truth be told F+H would jump through hoops to have a Phase One mount for their camera. We all know they would sell many more cameras, lenses and accessories and with more resource, that cable release would probably only take two months instead of two years.
Out of this years Photokina the only real announcements that is relevant to what you can buy today is Hasselblad's price cuts. Think about that for a moment and tell me who has the head start in the brave new world.
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Strike when the iron is hot.
Big Old Cooter speaks the truth.
B.O.C. lives in the world of advertising and money-making and demanding clients.
B.O.C. is not a Weekend Warrior.
By the time that Hy6 and 65 back are shipping in volume, there'll already be someone else, on the next streetcorner, waving THEIR flag, saying "We've got something new; it'll be here in four months!"
On and on and on; moving on to the next Shell Game.
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Big Old Cooter speaks the truth.
B.O.C. lives in the world of advertising and money-making and demanding clients.
B.O.C. is not a Weekend Warrior.
By the time that Hy6 and 65 back are shipping in volume, there'll already be someone else, on the next streetcorner, waving THEIR flag, saying "We've got something new; it'll be here in four months!"
On and on and on; moving on to the next Shell Game.
Other than Lehman Bros. nobody could dream up the world of medium format.
A small and contracting market that keeps raising prices and limiting options, because they keep raising prices and limiting options.
Right now everybody's e-mail box is filing up with announcements of buy a p65+ today and receive a p45+ until you get your new P65+. Now if this works, Lehman Bros. missed the boat because think about that idea. Buy some stock today for full price, but less value than they are worth and we will give your better stocks sometime later, at a time of our choosing and to top it off we hope the new stocks are as good as the old ones.
Why not just buy a used P45, save yourself 20 grand and shoot some photos. No client will know the difference and with that extra 20,000 you can shoot something really amazing.
Better still, why not just spend 41,000 on your portfolio (photography, not stock) and get some big paying jobs.
Hasselblad gets it, at least they get some of it. Canon really gets it. They give you a camera for 1/2 the price of the previous one and throw in video. Yes I know, photographers don't care about video. Of course we all know that will change when the client says, either give us video or we get someone else. Then that 3,000 dollar 5d2 will not only look like a good idea, it will pay for itself in the first 30 minutes of use.
And I almost forgot. Real photographers don't care about little cameras. It takes an RZ with some kind of adpapter to shoot a good photograph, that is until the rz jams or the previews turn green then out comes the Canon to finish the job.
Sure it takes a big camera, but someone needs to ask the world's most famous living photographer, Ms. Leibowitz what she works with and ask her assistants how many times she has tossed a big digital camera across the room.
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Out of this years Photokina the only real announcements that is relevant to what you can buy today is Hasselblad's price cuts. Think about that for a moment and tell me who has the head start in the brave new world.
Question: WHo has the headstart ?
Answer: Canon, Nikon.
Proof Derivation: The $2.5K needed to buy a 5D MarkII or a D700 or the $1.5K for a Mark1 can be charged to an average credit card.
Edmund
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Hasselblad and Phase got an early lead with past products (deservedly so), but they haven't done anything interesting lately if you ask me.
As far as I followed what have been said here on the forum especially by high volume photographers Sinar adressed a lot of demands (...here on the forum).
So the package really seems to be very, very well equipped.
But honestly I can't see any invention DB wise. In camera DNG and JPEG is probably extremely useful for a lot of photographers and this is obviously a good step in usability.
But basically the other players can/could provide this by a free firmware update.
LCD... yes, if one really needs it and decides to switch the plattform for the LCD of Sinars DB that's certainly a vaild reason.
And I do not doubt at all that IQ is phenomenal.
And the Hy6... actually the Hy6 is the attraction from my point of view. If I would have enough money to spend in photo stuff I'd buy it just because of the 45° finder... because of the finder at all.
But the "inventions" - from my point of view - are Hasselblads integrated lens correction (a: great tool, b: great time saver) and the binning of the P65+ (though limited in use by now).
I believe we will hear a lot more about binnging. The new Sony A900 provides binning as well and can shoot at a quarter of the generic resolution.
And as improvements on this level are upgradable by firmware... you don't have to buy a new back for an increase in speed, ISO, dynamic range or other chip related features.
Basically you can have different speeds, ISO and file sizes all in one DB and upgrades will be made by updates.
I don't know whether the P65+ really has the capability to do that yet (and if not it's more than ever too expensive). But I think that's what will happen in the near future.
In the long term - even with regard to costs - by all means I think this is something interessing.
At least more interessting than in camera DNG (but to be honest ... someone first must clear up for me what the advantage of DNG really is).
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bcooter,
let me first make a "disclaimer", for you and some others who may feel that I am taking it too seriously:
- I am not at all feeling rubbed the wrong way, nor do I take it personally, or am I mad/angry/upset/heated up when one thinks differently then myself and express it.
- I am too much enjoying my daughters and family since back from 2 stressful weeks at Photokina for knowing very well what is important and what is less.
- I do however claim for the right of answer when my name or Sinar's name is cited, like a person/company has the right of answer when being cited in a newspaper, for whatever reason.
- My opinion(s) on a subject do(es) engage only myself and are by no means intended to convince anybody that I am right.
- I am able to change my mind, when I am confronted with the truth and/or given the right arguments: it's long ago that I was 20 with the mindset to change the world.
There is nothing wrong with Sinar other than they are nowhere in the world of New York advertising and editorial and that may rub Theirry the wrong way, but Theirry needs to walk through the Piers and stick his nose into all of the studios and see how big a presence Sinar has.
I would not say the contrary, just repeat that we are trying to improve things and that things have changed already to a certain extend. In any case, you won't see me walking through the "Piers" in NYC. I am sticking my nose in enough studios in other parts of the world. I leave this job to others responsible for it. All I can (and do), is to forward such "suggestions".
As far as where money is allocated Theirry should talk to the digital lab or the box and just see how much they charge to work an image. Then I think a lot of people here would understand where the real pixels meet the paper and it's not from the sensor, or the "pure" nature of capture shop. It's from a team of three people working 8 hours each in photoshop for one image.
Quality of the data provided to the digital lab does have a significant influence on the retouching hours.
What gwhfithw (whatever) says makes sense in that he attempted to talk to someone at Sinar and buy a camera. He sees it at Photokina and he wants to talk about buying it.
Then, all of a sudden it makes no sense because the camera can't be purchased now so it's off his radar. All the makers should think about that the next time they start constructing displays for Photokina.
Strike when the iron is hot.
In which way(s) is it a shame to show a product which is 2 or 3 weeks away from being delivered? I can't understand this argument. The camera system in question could be demonstrated and tested at Photokina and even ordered, if one really wanted (though I would as always suggest to make testings elsewhere than at the booth of an exhibition).
Before you say that this comment is only U.S. centric, it's not, it's New York centric and like it or not New York is the capital of all advertising and editorial. In all truth, I am sure there are more non U.S. born photographers trolling the streets than there are natives. New York in the world of photography is the largest melting pot of anywhere on the planet and I don't think New York really believes that it is connected to anything but New York.
It is somehow "US centric", and don't take it wrong, but yes, there is another world outside the US and NYC, however the USA/NYC an important place are.
What I wrote is not to sabotage Sinar or medium format. I wrote this to sound the wake up call. It is also not to say anything bad about the Hy6 it looks like a good camera but I know if the real truth be told F+H would jump through hoops to have a Phase One mount for their camera. We all know they would sell many more cameras, lenses and accessories and with more resource, that cable release would probably only take two months instead of two years.
F&H does not owe the camera, are only manufacturers of it and do not have the word to tell which mount the camera can have. If more would be sold is possibly true, but still pure speculation for other reasons than market share.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Dear tho_mas,
But basically the other players can/could provide this by a free firmware update.
Not so, it needs a little more than just a firmware update: an internal QuadCore image processor for on-board processing of the files, among others.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Dear tho_mas,
Not so, it needs a little more than just a firmware update: an internal QuadCore image processor for on-board processing of the files, among others.
Best regards,
Thierry
funny if some people think that the mf market persists only ( or by majority ) from fashion photographers,
furter even mostly from US fashion photographers and finally only from US/ NY fashion photographers.
somehow egocentric. could it be?
that some NY guys think that there is no world outside NY and there is no world outside fashion
doesnt mean that the rest of the world agrees.
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funny if some people think that the mf market persists only ( or by majority ) from fashion photographers,
furter even mostly from US fashion photographers and finally only from US/ NY fashion photographers.
somehow egocentric. could it be?
that some NY guys think that there is no world outside NY and there is no world outside fashion
doesnt mean that the rest of the world agrees.
Actually the Japanese marriage photography market is probably large enough by itself to support at least one MF body.
But at the moment film is still hanging on by its fingernails, and with it the MF film processing chain, and only when everybody has agreed that Fuji has sucked the last drop of blood out of that market will the Japanese camera manufacturers provide an alternative technology. That point will have arrived when Fuji start to market an own-branded DIGITAL MF solution in Japan.
Edmund
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Not so, it needs a little more than just a firmware update: an internal QuadCore image processor for on-board processing of the files, among others.
Ah okay?! So I was wrong with it. Thank you!
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Why on earth do people keep assuming that Canikon will be able to take over the MF market just like that?
Obviously both (Nikon/Canon) have Worldwide Network that could put in shame any MF company including Hasselblad,
so don't tell me they don't deserve at least the benefit of the doubt...
Unlike all the other platforms, they will have no exisiting lenses,
Why would they have existing lenses, I hope hat's not the law?
so they would need to launch a new platform with at least 5 or 6 lenses to begin with, and everything would have to be bought new
I thought all this time we are talking about the new platform that Nikon/Canon are and if they are about to release.... therefore, of course
at the beginning everything would have to be purchased new... but the price of the new equipment will probably be equal or less to second
hand Rollei, Hassy even some future old Mamiya lenses....
Is the quality going to be there? Both of us based on our expirience/trust with Canon at least can probably agree and say no or not sure....
However there should be some hope left...
(this is the problem Leica has with the S2).
You can't compare Leica to Nikon/Canon business wise for the obvious reasons!!!
Leica has other problems not publicly known (don't ask).... However if they do succeed, I'll be there to show my support and buy few...
This already puts them at a massive disadvantage compared to the existing players.
Not true as far as I'm concerned, but of course time will tell!!!
Then there is the issue of lens quality - how many people out there would trust Canon to make a wide angle lens that is sharp from corner to corner on a large sensor? You must be kidding.
You know my answer on this one already.... Listen, don't be loud with Canon and silent with Nikon who is an excelent WA performer
as I said give them the benefit of the doubt....
(Leica glass, on the other hand, will be taken very seriously).
If you mean as far as the quality of their lenses? Yes I agree, everything else... I can only hope for!!!
Or the 'per pixel' quality? They've never made a sensor to match the sheer IQ of even a 3 year old MFDB. They have a LOT to prove. If they feel that the whole industry will move to larger sensors then perhaps they will do it but I doubt the system will be anything to get excited about, and it won't be cheap. Not for many years at least.
True... yet I own Leaf, Sinar, Hassy and Phase and still use them!!!
I don't personally expect any excitement in better quality although I hope they would come up with smaller size... even smaller lenses, something like Mamiya 7!!!
How cheap it will be, not sure... but probably cheaper than than any MF or Leica for sure!!!
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Hmmm, there isn't a Hasselblad dealer
Perhaps you didn't know but in case you/others are interested:
Contact: Mr. Romet
HASSELBLAD represented by Olympus Estonia in Talinn
+372 65 49 541
Phase dealer in this country at all.
Apparently, Estonia is such a small market that the guy from Sweden is covering sales and he is willing to travel
if you need test or need one!!!
I doubt the Hy6 needs Phase at all. Look at the recent poll of which platform people would buy into if given the choice today, and the Hy6 leads the poll. Hasselblad and Phase got an early lead with past products (deservedly so), but they haven't done anything interesting lately if you ask me.
You can doubt as much as you want, my point is..... it won't hurt and that's commerce!!!
As far as Edmunds Poll is concerned..... No disrespect to Michael but you don't believe these companies:
Deloitte
Baron & Baron
BBDO Worldwide
D'Arcy, Masius, Benton & Bowles
DDB Worldwide
Dentsu Group
Hakuhodo
Harrison & Star
JWT
Leo Burnett
McCann Erickson Worldwide
Publicis
TBWA Worldwide
Young and Rubicam
would base their strategy on this particular Poll or any similar one!!!
Cheers
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funny if some people think that the mf market persists only ( or by majority ) from fashion photographers,
furter even mostly from US fashion photographers and finally only from US/ NY fashion photographers.
somehow egocentric. could it be?
that some NY guys think that there is no world outside NY and there is no world outside fashion
doesnt mean that the rest of the world agrees.
it's not about fashion and it's not about the U.S.
It's about what cameras are readily available for professional photographers and New York is the mecca for world advertising, editorial and money.
Thousands of photographers from everywhere go to New York to shoot on the day, a week or a lifetime and even if they never shoot one frame in Manhattan most photographers of almost any level try to do something in New York.
They get representation and shop their portfolios up and down madison avenue.
If you removed the out of town, or foreign born photographers the city would be empty.
And it is also about who the new cameras are marketed to. I doubt if the Sinar 65, the Leica, or the Hy6 is marketed to architectural or still life photographers in any part of the world. They are obviously not marketed to the wedding photographer so that leaves editorial, advertising and fashion.
This board seems to have a great deal of anti american sentiment so anytime the U.S. is mentioned it's considered egotistical, but the truth is a huge proportion of the world's advertising photography production revolves around New York and the second truth is a lot if not most of that is shot by non U.S. photographers.
You can live anywhere you want, but if your good you will somehow end up with some association to New York.
You can travel the world, talk to photographers, assistants and models and almost to a person the goal is to make it somehow to and in New York.
So what sense does it make if an expensive camera brand does not have an overwhelming presence there?
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Perhaps you didn't know but in case you/others are interested:
Contact: Mr. Romet
HASSELBLAD represented by Olympus Estonia in Talinn
+372 65 49 541
I don't know what that relationship is, but as far as I know I'm the only MFDB user in the country, regardless of brand. If there is a Hass dealer here, I don't think he has sold a single unit. Perhapss Hasselblad has signed up some dormant partners just to be able to say they are available in X countries?
As far as Edmunds Poll is concerned..... No disrespect to Michael but you don't believe these companies:
...
What does this mean? I'm not following you.
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Why on earth do people keep assuming that Canikon will be able to take over the MF market just like that? Unlike all the other platforms, they will have no exisiting lenses, so they would need to ...............................
I doubt the Hy6 needs Phase at all. Look at the recent poll of which platform people would buy into if given the choice today, and the Hy6 leads the poll. Hasselblad and Phase got an early lead with past products (deservedly so), but they haven't done anything interesting lately if you ask me.
If you think the goal of any manufacturer is to get you to buy used lenses, or for that matter make it easy to use your existing lenses, then you must have skipped business 101.
The goal is to get you to buy everything new and as much as possible and if that isn't the goal any manufacturer will be in deep trouble.
The difference between Canon and Nikon vs. the standard medium format model is even if they start from scratch with new lenses they will be a lot less money than any of the competition from Europe.
You may or may not like the quality difference, but thousands of potential buyers will take advantage of the price difference and don't forget the dealer network. Canons and Nikons are sold everywhere. Shelf space has a lot to do with retail sales regardless of the industry.
In regards to the HY6 being interesting, yes it is to some extent, but don't kid yourself, whoever makes and sells the HY6 would be as happy as can be to have even 1/2 of the Hasselblad H series sales and market penetration.
As far as the Hy6 needing Phase, you should call F+H and ask them that question. I think you would be surprised at the answer and if truth be told a lot of people that really do know the camera business will tell you what a mistake it was not to have Phase signed on at the start.
You may be a Sinar user but if the market for the HY6 would double then your camera options would be better, your prices would probably be lower.
Phase has sold more digital backs than anyone and they are not going to go away overnight. I would make a bet that in the long run Phase sells more Phamiyas than Sinar and Leaf will sell HY6's.
Look how fast Phase has turned around that brand. New body, new lenses, new grip and now an association with Leica for even more lens options. Phase has some muscle behind them and for medium format a huge user base. They also seem quite happy to let the Mamiya stay an open platform for every back maker which will only increase the market for the Mamiya brand.
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If you think the goal of any manufacturer is to get you to buy used lenses, or for that matter make it easy to use your existing lenses, then you must have skipped business 101.
Why would I think that? I certainly never said it. I was making the point about customers voting with their wallets. Were you awake for that lecture in Business 101?
Mamiya wouldn't be selling anything any more if it weren't for the cheap used lenses luring people into the system. Nuff said.
The difference between Canon and Nikon vs. the standard medium format model is even if they start from scratch with new lenses they will be a lot less money than any of the competition from Europe.
And you know this for a fact because.... ?
Canon specialises in mass producing so-so lenses in large volumes. What makes you think they can make a killer 645-compatible 28mm wide angle lens for the same money as their consumer rubbish? Sorry but I think you're dreaming. High quality, low volume means expensive.
Canons and Nikons are sold everywhere. Shelf space has a lot to do with retail sales regardless of the industry.
Probably true for consumers at the really cheap end. I doubt many pros base their camera platform choice on a dealer being a few miles closer than another!
Look how fast Phase has turned around that brand. New body, new lenses, new grip and now an association with Leica for even more lens options.
The new body was a minor revision with a new sticker. I'll take your word that there is a new lens or two - I must have missed them. As for the Leica rumour, care to point to just one reliable source?
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New body, new lenses, new grip and now an association with Leica for even more lens options. Phase has some muscle behind them and for medium format a huge user base.
I'm not sure that the Mamiya-PhaseOne lenses could be compatible with the new Leica. I think you are dreaming.
PdF
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I'm not sure that the Mamiya-PhaseOne lenses could be compatible with the new Leica. I think you are dreaming.
At Photokina someone of Phase One told me Leica is going to built 5 Lenses for the Phase One camera.
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At Photokina someone of Phase One told me Leica is going to built 5 Lenses for the Phase One camera.
...and someone else reported that Sinar would stop making digital backs (which was absolutely false). So let's wait for an official statement!
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So let's wait for an official statement!
True.
The same person told me the T/S is made with new glass. And I am going to believe that only then when someone shows me images at 12mm shift sharp at the edges.
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I don't know what that relationship is, but as far as I know I'm the only MFDB user in the country, regardless of brand. If there is a Hass dealer here, I don't think he has sold a single unit. Perhapss Hasselblad has signed up some dormant partners just to be able to say they are available in X countries?
In that case disregard the contact or simply use it to your liking, obviously makes no difference to me!!!
What does this mean?
In general/short words means business...
I'm not following you.
You decided to quote excerpt/partially my answer "As far as Edmunds Poll is concerned..... No disrespect to Michael but you don't believe these companies: ..."
therefore as such, I'm not to be surprised if you don't follow!!!
In any case.... read it again or simply do the usual (keep your opinion) again.... makes no difference to me!!!
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This board seems to have a great deal of anti american sentiment so anytime the U.S. is mentioned it's considered egotistical, but the truth is a huge proportion of the world's advertising photography production revolves around New York and the second truth is a lot if not most of that is shot by non U.S. photographers.
You can live anywhere you want, but if your good you will somehow end up with some association to New York.
You can travel the world, talk to photographers, assistants and models and almost to a person the goal is to make it somehow to and in New York.
Hey B Cooter,
As much as I mostly agree with what you say I think you must belong to the Flat Earth Society. There's a big World out there, the horizon extends beyond New York. There are plenty of really excellent photographers earning a good living that have never set foot in New York, and never wish to. Just because you work in the Big Apple doesn't mean you're at the top of the tree....
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Hey B Cooter,
As much as I mostly agree with what you say I think you must belong to the Flat Earth Society. There's a big World out there, the horizon extends beyond New York. There are plenty of really excellent photographers earning a good living that have never set foot in New York, and never wish to. Just because you work in the Big Apple doesn't mean you're at the top of the tree....
I'm in New York, and I've been around. Well, at least to Europe. My impression is that for commercial and editorial fashion, New York is king. In terms of volume and dollars. Next is London, followed by Paris, but Paris seems more of an editorial town than a commercial fashion town. The rest of Europe doesn't seem to have the volume of work or a cutting edge. These are generalizations, and there are exceptions, and again are my impressions. I wonder what the numbers are.
I have no idea what life style, products, archetechtual markets are like.