Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: yaya on September 25, 2008, 01:12:38 pm
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Köln, Germany, 25 September, 2008 – Leaf, developer of advanced medium format digital camera systems, and Sinar AG, longtime provider of digital high-end camera solutions, today announced their intention to expand their strategic alliance to include bilateral sharing of digital imaging technology.
How soon before we see a manifestation of this merger? I'm interested in the s65r but I don't want buy into the system if there is going to be a new product reflecting this ideal, in which case I might hold off a little while longer to see what occurs in the next few months.
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"the new Leaf AFi-II imaging module "
Could you explain what this means exactly? Is Sinar using the wide sensor or is there more to it?
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AFiII on Sinar/Rollei camera would be a dream come through for me. Can not wait to hear more.
Andre
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"the new Leaf AFi-II imaging module "
Could you explain what this means exactly? Is Sinar using the wide sensor or is there more to it?
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Here's the press release:
[a href=\"http://www.sinarcameras.com/site/index__gast-e-2036-54-2175.html]http://www.sinarcameras.com/site/index__ga...36-54-2175.html[/url]
It sounds a bit desperate to me. They don't even say what they are going to do together...
The thing is, they have to lower their prices even more. Specially Leaf (of course Phase One too).
We heve seen a very agressive Hasselblad last year and yesterday's announcement is more of the same. I think they are leading the fight now and even if I think all this is the result of their own closed system they know very well how to put things clear on the table.
Very interesting days...
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AFiII on Sinar/Rollei camera would be a dream come through for me. Can not wait to hear more.
Andre
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Huh?
I don't get it. Didn't Leaf already have the Hy6, AFI, Rollei (whew) camera?
What's changed other than sharing costs.
And how does this effect MAC. Does Leaf O' Merica now handle Sinar?
Is there still Sinar, or Leaf or both or one or a new name.
I vote for Leanar, which works a lot better than Sleaf.
Just be sure to call the new software INPHOCUS. That's flip hasselblad out.
All kidding aside, Hasselblad does seem agressive and going after the Canon business model of buy it, use it, sell it. I guess they are in a good position since they also sell lenses so there is profit to be made if they can sell people into thier system.
Hassellblad really, really, really, needs to get an open source format that doesnt' require conversion to work in 3rd party programs.
JR
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"I vote for Leanar, which works a lot better than Sleaf."
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Partnership with LEAF is great move for both SINAR and LEAF.
However, if I was to buy Camera Hy6 today... what would be my best choice Rollei? Leaf? Sinar?
Sinar comes with probably all or most accessories that you'll/I'll ever need to buy!
They all come with a label "NONE OF THESE CAMERAS AND ACCESSORIES ARE AVAILABLE FOR RENT THOUGH!!!
Some Digital Backs come with the same label too...
So what do we/I do? What's the common sense here...
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They all come with a label "NONE OF THESE CAMERAS AND ACCESSORIES ARE AVAILABLE FOR RENT THOUGH!!!
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...maybe in your part of the world. Even I have a Hy6 rental outlet 2 hours away
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...maybe in your part of the world. Even I have a Hy6 rental outlet 2 hours away
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I'll remember that, who is your rental company?
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I'll remember that, who is your rental company?
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[a href=\"http://www.fimeko.fi/]http://www.fimeko.fi/[/url]
I've been there a few times but haven't rented from them yet.
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http://www.fimeko.fi/ (http://www.fimeko.fi/)
I've been there a few times but haven't rented from them yet.
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I just ran into a gentleman called Yair Shahar. He was so nice that I doubted he could be working for Leaf, he gave me a coke although he knew I had a Phase. And then this benevolent gentleman told me "have you seen the news ?" So I said umm - actually I had seen the stragtegic etc and wondered what it meant. So Yair explained that Sinar will now be selling Sinar backs as their high end products. I hope I haven't go it wrong, after all he did give me a free coke
Edmund
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http://www.fimeko.fi/ (http://www.fimeko.fi/)
I've been there a few times but haven't rented from them yet.
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Thank you Graham!
I'm not selling RZ67 for sure, I'll even try to keep the H2 gear because it already paid it self number of times.... My option was to stay with Hasselblad and basically upgrade only lenses!
The way Hasselblad attacks the market I wouldn't be surprised to see totally new Camera next year with 100MP and set of new lenses.... they may even start selling 35mm cameras, I heard some rumors not worth bring in up, but nothing that they'll do will surprise me anymore!
Leica is really up to no good as far as I am concerned with or without the Phase partnership. I would love to see them succeed though... but how, based on what grounds and if... when?
I think for me... Hy6 could be in a way future RZ67 in a new package.... basically you can mix and match old/new lenses and have other interesting options/etc.
I'm not talking about the Digital Backs, because what ever I say today may be half price or less tomorrow...
!!!BE AWARE!!!
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this doesn't surprise me a bit. i mentioned this on te leica s2 thread; sinar, leaf and phase are screwing themselves by putting too much into bigger better and more expensive. leica will surely do the same with the s2 (smaller, better, even more expensive), and have no chance of survival.
hasselblad is the only mfdb company that realizes that an aggresive price point is the key.
it makes no difference if you have a 100mp swiveling 4x5 inch sensor. you have to compete with the 1ds mk III if you want a share of the market - and that is what hasselblad are doing, the top end is marketing fluff, the bottom end aggresive competition aimed at high end dslr photographers wanting a little more.
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There is certainly "a bit more" to that explanation, but yes, Yair is a nice guy: he offered Sushi to Rainer and me!
Thierry
So Yair explained that Sinar will now be selling Sinar backs as their high end products.
Edmund
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There is certainly "a bit more" to that explanation, but yes, Yair is a nice guy: he offered Sushi to Rainer and me!
Thierry
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Sorry, I need to correct my previous statement. No, I don't mean to retract my statement that Yair is a nice guy, I just want to explain that if I understand rightly Sinar is somehow shoehorning the top-end Leaf backs into the Sinar product line. Complete with rotating sensor and fold-out screen.
Edmund
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Among others, Edmund. Here what the press release says:
"... Leaf, developer of advanced medium format digital camera systems, and Sinar AG, longtime provider of digital high-end camera solutions, today announced their intention to expand their strategic alliance to include bilateral sharing of digital imaging technology ..."
Extract from press release dated today Thursday, September 25th:
http://www.sinarcameras.com/site/index__ga...s-rand-534.html (http://www.sinarcameras.com/site/index__gast-e-1473-23-1563-urlvars-rand-534.html)
I guess more will be announced within the next days or weeks.
Thierry
Sorry, I need to correct my previous statement. No, I don't mean to retract my statement that Yair is a nice guy, I just want to explain that if I understand rightly Sinar is somehow shoehorning the top-end Leaf backs into the Sinar product line. Complete with rotating sensor and fold-out screen.
Edmund
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Among others, Edmund. Here what the press release says:
"...today announced their intention to expand their strategic alliance to include bilateral sharing of digital imaging technology ..."
I'm assuming Sinar will share SW code rights to LC11?
David
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As Thierry already commented, more information and details will be available soon and we believe that both companies as well as the photographers will benefit from this agreement.
Yair
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As Thierry already commented, more information and details will be available soon and we believe that both companies as well as the photographers will benefit from this agreement.
I don't dispute that at all. My only problem is I have a bank draft to my dealer for $31,000US (and change) to purchase a AFi II 7 this weekend. Should I wait for Sinar to cut a better deal? Maybe include the 80mm glass, 3-year warranty, and 45 degree finder?
David
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As Thierry already commented, more information and details will be available soon and we believe that both companies as well as the photographers will benefit from this agreement.
Yair
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Sounds interesting--I think this could be a very good thing.
The AFi-II 10 (aside from the unweildly name) is really compelling. I'll be glad to see more tilt-screen and possibly internally rotating sensor-based offerings on the market.
Looking forward to seeing the fruits of this effort!
-Brad
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Huh?
I don't get it. Didn't Leaf already have the Hy6, AFI, Rollei (whew) camera?
What's changed other than sharing costs.
JR
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James
This whole upgrade and alliances is very confusing.
When I wrote my comment I was under the impression that quoting Yair I will be able to upgrade A75s to AptusII7 for $7000,
and then just buy a Rollei/Sinar camera body and put the back on it.
I am not intending to spend another 30K upgrade for camera/Db that does not offer any better sensor nor improved ISO nor faster shooting nor real wi-fi. All the improvements are too minor to justify this kind of money. Beside next year there will be another Leaf upgrade for a mere 30K for AFi3 that will offer 3 point focusing. I reached the end of the line with Leaf. I am seriously looking at Hasselblad as it seem that they seriously want me as a client.
Andre
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Sounds interesting--I think this could be a very good thing.
-Brad
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I don't think it's a bad thing, or a good thing. Other than I find it somewhat intersting. It really is kind of like reading Toyota will sell GM some motors in a joint owned factory . . . except at least when GM and Toyota write a press release they're fairly clear on what they are going to do.
Once again, I just don't understand medium format and their marketing. It's confusing at best and for a segment that seems to be fighting for market share, I think before i would add anything that even got close to confusion I would make sure the deal is signed, dotted, passed through legal and then distributed to the potential customers with how it will exactly effect and benifit them.
I know I joke about the medium format guys meeting in some undisclosed location to plan the future of photography but at some point I guess they do, other than the location is Cologne.
Still, I guess it makes no difference what logo is on the front of the camera as long as it works, but I thoght photokina was suppose to be a place to show new euqipment, not just pdfs.
Maybe it's both.
The really strange thing is one month ago it seemed Sinar and Leaf were diehard competitors both fighting turf wars, now I guess they're partners of some type.
Same with Leica and Phase, you would think that both offering 30mpx cameras they would be after the same market, but now they are alligned, though once again whatever that means nobody knows.
Actually the only clear message in medium format right now is Hasselblad. They list their lineup, they list their prices, they list their lenses ready to purchase and they've lowered thier prices.
Then again who knows, maybe in 2 days Hasselblad will form an alliance with Contax. After all Contax is sitll around . . . right?
JR
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Speculation 5
Sinar are great engineers - ie builders of mechanical devices - the whole digital thing never really worked for them
Leaf have no engineering skill - they are an electronics company -
Sinar backs will fade away and Leaf will get an increased R+D budget to try and keep up with blad (and phase)
Sinar of course have wierd distribution and marketing too - they need help on that front from someone vaguely competent like Leaf
SMM
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Under this diagram it looks like a perfect marriage.
They only need to hire a superb marketing agency to work it out. Nasa maybe? China Space agency?
It only took for Hassellad that Walter Schirra take it into orbit, to become the most desirable and prestigious camera on earth.
Marketing trick or maybe indeed it was purchased by Schirra's own will from a camera shop in Houston. God knows.
Eduardo
Speculation 5
Sinar are great engineers - ie builders of mechanical devices - the whole digital thing never really worked for them
Leaf have no engineering skill - they are an electronics company -
Sinar backs will fade away and Leaf will get an increased R+D budget to try and keep up with blad (and phase)
Sinar of course have wierd distribution and marketing too - they need help on that front from someone vaguely competent like Leaf
SMM
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EPd, Interesting speculation--particularly #2... (#1's interesting too-I wouldn't have thought of that).
In any case, on a rare occasion or two I am privy to some of these strategic alliances in this industry (but not this one). And from my experience I can say that because these alliances can be so broad, it can be next to impossible to guess with any certainty what each party hopes to gain, why they might want it, or what each actually gains.
As a guy who is relatively new to MF, and has been through a Hassy V, Mamiya, Hassy H and now has a Sinar (and who looked very closely at Leaf and Contax), I can say that each company definitely has its strengths.
Between Sinar and Leaf, I would say that Leaf has the superior workflow. I would also say that the Jenoptik/Sinar camp are being very responsive to their customers and innovating (for example the Hy6 project, revolving backs, arTec, Hy6-65 and so on).
One way this could play out (particularly with scenario #2 in mind) is to allow each to play to their strengths and create an even stronger whole. For example, I doubt that Sinar's 50+ Mpxl offering would have also offered a tilt screen without this agreement (not saying that it will now either, but some earlier messages seem to point toward that possibility).
Given Hasselblad's aggressive moves and the Phase/Mamiya+Phase/Leica collaboration in such a small market, I think Sinar & Leaf will benefit each other, gain efficiency and boost their competitiveness.
I'm cautiously optimistic about this one--it has a lot of interesting potential--certainly for me as a Hy6 (aka AFi aka Rolleiflex ) owner.
-Brad
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How's that called where the people see the storm coming and lash all their boats together to avoid drifting off or sinking? Mostly kidding.
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It all sounds rather silly to me. Three brands already share the same camera; Rolleiflex, Sinar and Leaf. Now the are shareing the digital end...
It would seem like the most reasonable thing to do would be to merge the companies and put all power they have into DROPPING PRICES and competing with Hasselblad.
All this strategic alliance bull does is give one the feeling that things are going in the wrong direction and these companies are grabbing straws.
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A word of reassurance: Hy6 (AFi) sells well enough to have F&H produce at their maximum capacity and they are now contracting new workers to assist. Number of Hy6 cameras that are shipped each month is about double of the best sales figures they ever had for the Rolleiflex 6008.
I'm not surprised. The Hy6 is a great camera. I have found it to work on an almost instinctive level which makes my life a lot simpler when out in the field - the ergonomics are very well thought out.
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I think this means that they're all going to send their accessories to the same factory to have their logos stamped.
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A word of reassurance: Hy6 (AFi) sells well enough to have F&H produce at their maximum capacity and they are now contracting new workers to assist. Number of Hy6 cameras that are shipped each month is about double of the best sales figures they ever had for the Rolleiflex 6008.
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It's all relative. Given that Rollei never sold on a substancial level and that F&H all but disapeared before the Hy6, I'd say it's a good thing and nice to hear. But, the question is what are they trying to achieve? I suspect a substancial portion of the professional camera market. And if so, why not end all the waisted revenue and energie and make it one camera plattform, one brand, one software, one line of digital componentents, one lens line, one marketing campaign, one world wide network of dealers and support and use the revenue they save to lower the prices. It would be a win win situation for everyone.
Just name the whole plattform Rolleiflex X1. Leaf and Sinar sell it together. Period.
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i think this marriage is very positive.
i was wondering the last days,- more so after the 5dmks and the S2 announcements,- how this mf thing will go on,- more and more player in a market who will have increasing pressure from the lower end.
i think lower prices are nice for us, as long the companies survive. digital studio and architecture shooters even really NEED the mf systems, together with cameras and lenses as you only find in the mf segment. there is no offer in the mass market, from canon and nikon ( and hasselblad? ) . from the bigger players come only compromises ( as mediocre or submediocres shift lenses ) but no hiend solutions.
phase still seem to look hand-wringing for a camera system. they couldnt join in th hy6 deal, but they knew they need urgently a camera system, as sinar/leaf and hasselblad have.
its obviously that the mamiya cooperation is not working very well, and i doubt that leica will bring the solution for phase. ( contax? sems so that kyocere still is not willed to give the brand free again,- and although its a very nice system and all who use it like it,- its not on par with a modern system either. there should have to be created a new camera as well, if the brand could be reactivated. )
sinar and leaf were working together in the beginning days of digital, so they have a longer history together. i see many fields where they could exchange their technologies and save a lot of money, than to invent the wheel separate and to compete.
both together can form a really strong company, probably the best in the market. offering cameras for studio (P, sinar m ) , architecture ( arctec ) , fashion ( hy6-afi )
and backs as the new sinar 30 mp, the afi7 and e75 and the leaf 60 mp back.
they really have all, including a big distributor network.
this cooperation can work fine, as i believe.
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Rainer/Thierry,
Rainer - I appreciate your confidence in the undefined strategic alliance, but to my thinking we have four iterations of the same tool - Hasselblad, Leaf, Sinar, Phase. Take each and you'll find advantages and disadvantages.
When price is on a relatively level plane between competitors, the purchase decision is made by the individuals ability to mold their thinking/workflow to the approach that best fits with their mindset and workplace needs.
What we now have with the new Hasselblad strategy is a SUBSTANTIAL differential in price from the new level that Hasselblad has taken the initive to establish compared to Leaf/Sinar/Phase pricing tier. Hasselblad has a distinct advantage over Leaf/Sinar/Phase at this moment.
Until Leaf, Sinar and Phase "get competitive" on price, few will base a purchase decision on "strategic alliance" issues, particularly those who are in touch with what is going on in the economy.
I would have suggested to Leaf/Sinar/Phase that a direct action be taken to meet, or if possible go beyond, the price level that Hasselblad has now set rather than tossing into the market a press release that frankly says very little for the perspective buyer to base a purchase decision on.
In todays market where all players offer "adequate" solutions, it's now going to become decisions based on economics/cost of purchase. All of the players have gear/support/marketing that is "adequate". Any good photographer has the ability to make ANY of the current system work. As Rainer' success illustrates, he's earned a handsome living "working around" the prior iterations of equipment we had to choose from. With arTec he states he no longer has to "work around", but at what cost in dollars is that worth to each of us? Some gear is better in one area but then they loose it in another - the purchase decision is all about compromise.
The current situation reminds me of the challenges I faced in the computer industry - on pushing new chip sets/hardware/software into the market when the equipments level of sophistication has reached a level that is defined by many users as "good enough to do the job". At that point it become an issue of value for the dollar, and you had better be in right budget zone of your consumer if you want to sell product!
The longer Leaf/Sinar/Phase wait to adjust their prices the more time Hasselblad has to "imprint" on the market mindset that they are the top dog who is sensitive to the buyers economic situation.
Leaf/Sinar/Phase do have the distinct advantage over the H3DII logic of digital back - use it only on a Hassie! Many of us want an open digital back to move to an Alpa, Cambo, or what every for what ever reason we may individually have. Maybe just the sensation of "freedom" to choose what front end we want to mate up with our expensive digital back component.
In short, my advice to Leaf/Sinar/Phase is to wake up and get your prices in line first, then market the hell out of having an open system. I could give a flip less about undefined strategic alliances,
Respectfully submitted for your consideration.