Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: SeanBK on September 24, 2008, 10:50:17 am
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I just received an e-mail from Hasselblad @ their new pricing structure. Dropping their prices up to 40%. It is a little confusing, but I am not sure whether H3DII-31 still remains at $17,999. & what other products prices now are, with new discounts?
Anybody including the dealers have a grasp on the new pricing structure?
Thanks
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> H3DII-50 (Kodak) : 17.995 € HT
> H3DII-60 - (Dalsa 40,2x53,7 / 60,1Mp) : 22.995 €HT (Q1/2009)
> ZOOM HCD 4-5.6 / 35-90mm (for H3 only) : 4.990 €HT (january 09)
> H3DII31 + 2.8/80 HC : 11.995 €HT
> H3DII39 + 2.8/80 HC : 14.990 €HT
> H3DII39-MS : 19.995 €HT
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I received the same email.
What does this mean?
"Secondly, by significantly lowering the retail price we are able to remove the necessity of a trade-up program..."
Also if what FrançoisTT posted is the new pricing, Ummmm....is that lower???
- Rudy
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I just got a post card in the mail that offers the H3DII-31 for $15,995 and goes on to say that if you buy it now you can get 12 months interest free and no payments for 12 months. (guess its body only?)
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Hhhhhmmmmmmmmmm...........
Glad I haggled over the price as much as I did when I bought earlier this year!
D.
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I do applaud this new strategy since it will open up not only the primary market for MFDB but probably will also fuel the 2nd hand market.
Glad I agreed upon upgrading a couple of weeks ago
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I had post the new (French) hasselblad Prices I had received today by mail from my dealer in Paris.
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François do you know the price of H3DII39 (not MS) body only ?
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I don't.
I understand they sold it now with the 80mm like for the 31mp promotion.
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thanks !
I could play at Photokina with the 35-90 and it is really a wonderful lens
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Would someone post a link to the new 35-90 zoom, please?
Is it huge?
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here (http://www.ephotozine.com/article/Hasselblad-HCD-4-5635-90mm-Aspherical-zoom-lens)
in the hands it looks like the HC 35mm
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Has no-one else noticed that Hasselblad has apparently announced a new king-of-the-hill model (for resolution and sensor size) in the most amazingly understated way, an emailed price list:
> H3DII-60 - (Dalsa 40,2x53,7 / 60,1Mp) : 22.995 €HT (Q1/2009)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=223954\")
And at king-of-the-hill affordability for that sensor size, too!
If this is for real, it sounds like the same "Full Frame 645 format" sensor as in the Phase One P65+ back --- making the talk of Phase One having an exclusive on that sensor, and of it being a Phase One-Dalsa collaboration seem a bit of an "exaggeration".
P.S. I just found official confirmation for this news:
[a href=\"http://www.hasselblad.se/news/hasselblad-announces-new-products-new-technology-and-new-directions.aspx]http://www.hasselblad.se/news/hasselblad-a...directions.aspx[/url]
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Let the price wars begin.
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Ha, Hasselblad's marketing guys are just too funny, calling it full frame 2 years ago (the viewfinder was FF actually) and now not being happy with P1 calling their sensor FF. Anyway...
Interesting times if these prices are true.
Went to a french shop to check € prices:
http://www.lemoyenformat.com/Neuf/MFnu.htm (http://www.lemoyenformat.com/Neuf/MFnu.htm) (in french)
Funny thing, they are "inspired" by this forum, James, scroll down to the P21 ad to find a screenshot of your comment over here.
If Hassy bring down the prices, the others will have to follow. Maybe this will be at the same time the end of the upgrade system.
Tom-
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"To achieve its compact form, the light projection of the lens has been designed for the ‘48mm full format’ sensor of the H3DII-39 and H3DII-50. At the wide-angle setting, in particular, Hasselblad’s designers have balanced improvements in lens performance with a slightly greater distortion and vignetting as these are eliminated by Hasselblad’s Digital APO Correction (DAC) without any compromise on quality. The outcome is a powerful tool that zooms from an impressive 83 degree, wide-angle to just beyond the fringes of a normal lens."
What happens to the 28mm and this lens when the new sensor 60mp H3D comes out? Isn't the sensor larger on that one?
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"To achieve its compact form, the light projection of the lens has been designed for the ‘48mm full format’ sensor of the H3DII-39 and H3DII-50. At the wide-angle setting, in particular, Hasselblad’s designers have balanced improvements in lens performance with a slightly greater distortion and vignetting as these are eliminated by Hasselblad’s Digital APO Correction (DAC) without any compromise on quality. The outcome is a powerful tool that zooms from an impressive 83 degree, wide-angle to just beyond the fringes of a normal lens."
What happens to the 28mm and this lens when the new sensor 60mp H3D comes out? Isn't the sensor larger on that one?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224012\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well if Mamiya/ Phase don't get their stupid Leaf shutter lens they have been promise out into the market before the end of the year.. I would certainly consider going with Hassleblad considering the price drop...:+}
Of Course a nice new 5DII will come before that....:+}
I think the medium format guys have gauged us enough and now it is time for them to suffer!!
Bring on the Competition...
Snook
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BJL wrote, "Has no-one else noticed that Hasselblad has apparently announced a new king-of-the-hill model (for resolution and sensor size) in the most amazingly understated way, an emailed price list:
FrançoisTT quote, "H3DII-60 - (Dalsa 40,2x53,7 / 60,1Mp) : 22.995 €HT (Q1/2009)"
And at king-of-the-hill affordability for that sensor size, too!
If this is for real, it sounds like the same "Full Frame 645 format" sensor as in the Phase One P65+ back --- making the talk of Phase One having an exclusive on that sensor, and of it being a Phase One-Dalsa collaboration seem a bit of an "exaggeration".
P.S. I just found official confirmation for this news:
http://www.hasselblad.se/news/hasselblad-a...directions.aspx (http://www.hasselblad.se/news/hasselblad-announces-new-products-new-technology-and-new-directions.aspx)"
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Looks like Hasselblad is attempting to flex some muscle and lay waste to Phase One, Leaf, and Sinar profit margins, and especially newcomer Leica with its new S2.
A very interesting strategy on Hasselblad's part to make a "poison pen" announcement of their upcoming 60MP sensor (Q1/2009) at a price point of around $33,724.33 USD (direct conversion of Euros to USD) undercutting the potential volume of sales of Phase One's P65+ first to market "645 MFDB" (Q4/ 2008) and its initial price point of approx $39,413.00 USD.
And that the Hasselblad price will include the HD3II camera and 80mm lens as well as the 60MP Back!
There is a very serious marketing battle in progress!
Will Phase One respond and adjust their pricing structure to be more competitive?
Is the Leica S2 product announcement providing fuel to Hasselblad's price reduction too? And will Leica have to adjust their "stratospheric" pricing on their new S-System camera and lenses before they even get out of the gate?
Will Nikon join in this crazy fray with their rumored MX product? And what of Canon?
Folks, don't turn that dial; stay tuned for the next exciting episode!
Joe Bossuyt
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Synopsis of pricing is; (Remember this includes the camera, viewfinder & 80mm lens)
H3DII-31 $17,995
H3DII-39 $21,995
H3DII-50 $27,995
H3DII-60 $35,995
H3DII-39MS $30,995 (Multi-shot)
CFII-39 $19,995
CFII-39MS $28,995 (Multi shot)
Nice.....puts Phase one in a pickle, answer is quite easy, don't make CEO profit off hard working photographers - EVERYTIME ONE back is sold.
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Synopsis of pricing is; (Remember this includes the camera, viewfinder & 80mm lens)
H3DII-31 $17,995
H3DII-39 $21,995
H3DII-50 $27,995
H3DII-60 $35,995
H3DII-39MS $30,995 (Multi-shot)
CFII-39 $19,995
CFII-39MS $28,995 (Multi shot)
Nice.....puts Phase one in a pickle, answer is quite easy, don't make CEO profit off hard working photographers - EVERTIME a back is sold.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224060\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Plus Hasselblad has a full lens line up! I don't understand why anyone would wait for other manufacturers to get their but in gear? How many years have we been waiting for new MF digital cameras? It's been like watching paint dry. Good move Hasselblad!
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While the new pricing is exciting the fact that they discontinued the upgrade program is not good for existing customers. Having reset the used values by quite a bit working out the cost to upgrade after selling the older gear and recapturing the depreciation, it is going to cost more than the old-upgrade plan would have. I am surprised they did not offer anything to the existing base.
Competition is a good thing however!
Anyone have speculation on the fate of the HCD lenses with the eventual move to "near full frame" sensors? HCD lenses are looking like they may share the ultimate fate of Nikon DX and Canon EF-S (of course those manufacturers are going to continue to build crop sensors for some time). I really like the HCD 28 and i am looking forward to trying out the new HCD wide zoom. the decision to upgrade to near full frame is now more difficult.
Is there any other differences between the 39 and 50 megapixel backs beside density? I am wondering if the 50 is a big enough jump in density to be that significant, especially with near full frame 60 megapixel backs next year?
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Would you upgrade from an 8MP DSLR to a 10MP if EVEYTHING is identical except the megapixel count? It's a tough sell for existing 39MP owners, but an easier sell for owners of smaller file size backs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224094\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Moving from 39mp to 50mp doesn't make sense for me, especially with the amazing quality / results that I get from Flexcolor / Phocus. 60mp or more, perhaps, but 39mp is enough to last me for a long time.
You are right, it's an easier sell for lower pixel back users.
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Exactly, maybe i was being too kind in my question, unless there is some major other advantage like less noise, better dynamic range, better bayer filter. Rumors were there would be some substantive advantages but i certainly have not read about any. With the new pricing if someone was about to up for a H3DII-39 now the can obviously have a H3DII-50 as you point out.
On the upgrade issue I was told I could upgrade to the H3DII-60 for the price difference, which at the time was estimated to be about $5,500 more than the old H3DII-39, now it is going to be much more depending on your resale and depreciation circumstances so i am not sure i agree with Paulsen that the new pricing makes an upgrade plan unnecessary. It certainly would have been desirable
Has anyone seen a H-series GPS module yet?
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Has anyone seen a H-series GPS module yet?
yes I have tried it in PhotoKina, it is very small and easy to use , but indoor it was not working
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Am I right in thinking that these Hassleblad backs can only be used on the Hassy camera?
ie: You can't mount the back on a Cambo or an Alpa or a view camera.
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Fascinating, it looks like the medium format market is finally starting to move...
To my eyes, this is a validation of the Nikon MX rumor, since I don't see anything else that could have set things in motion this way. The Leica S2 cannot be the reason, it is one year away and its price has not been confirmed yet...
Phaseone will have a very hard time selling P65+ backs at 40.000 US$ IMHO. You can find like new H3D39II at less than 20.000 US$ now on ebay.
Either way, it looks like waiting a few more months is probably the best thing to do.
Cheers,
Bernard
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If this is for real, it sounds like the same "Full Frame 645 format" sensor as in the Phase One P65+ back --- making the talk of Phase One having an exclusive on that sensor, and of it being a Phase One-Dalsa collaboration seem a bit of an "exaggeration".
P.S. I just found official confirmation for this news:
http://www.hasselblad.se/news/hasselblad-a...directions.aspx (http://www.hasselblad.se/news/hasselblad-announces-new-products-new-technology-and-new-directions.aspx)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
From the posted link: "Nevertheless, to show that we’re not going to rest on our laurels, we’re also announcing the forthcoming H3DII-60, an even higher end camera that we’ll launch in 2009. The H3DII-60 will feature a 60 megapixel sensor that provides 94% full-frame, 645 coverage. We feel that it’s important to emphasize the 94% coverage, because, although we hear the phrase 'full-frame' being used quite frequently, no manufacturer has yet achieved true medium format full-frame.”"
Hasselblad CEO Mr. Poulsen says that even we hear the phrase 'full-frame' it's important to emphasize the 94% coverage. WHAT? You have a short memory mr. Poulsen but let me refreshen it. It was you who launched the 'full frame' just 2 years ago. H3D the worlds first full frame dslr!
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While the new pricing is exciting the fact that they discontinued the upgrade program is not good for existing customers. Having reset the used values by quite a bit working out the cost to upgrade after selling the older gear and recapturing the depreciation, it is going to cost more than the old-upgrade plan would have. I am surprised they did not offer anything to the existing base.
Competition is a good thing however!
Anyone have speculation on the fate of the HCD lenses with the eventual move to "near full frame" sensors? HCD lenses are looking like they may share the ultimate fate of Nikon DX and Canon EF-S (of course those manufacturers are going to continue to build crop sensors for some time). I really like the HCD 28 and i am looking forward to trying out the new HCD wide zoom. the decision to upgrade to near full frame is now more difficult.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224091\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Don't you find it strange that Hasselblad would develop a HCD zoom lens when they fully well know that they have a larger sensor in development? I would like to hear what hasselblad is thinking with regards to this
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Moving from 39mp to 50mp doesn't make sense for me, especially with the amazing quality / results that I get from Flexcolor / Phocus. 60mp or more, perhaps, but 39mp is enough to last me for a long time.
You are right, it's an easier sell for lower pixel back users.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224098\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Indeed! And as for 39Mp multi-shot.......don't start me!
D.
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Two comments to above posts.
1. In partial defense of Hasselblad, it always said "48MM Full Frame", carefully not claiming to fill the full 645 film frame. So now Hasselblad is splitting hairs over a 1.08x crop factor in order to accuse Phase One of exaggeration, which seems like sour grapes over Phase One beating it to announcement of "645 format digital". (I wonder if Kodak is promissing Hasselblad a full 645 format 56x41.5mm sensor in a year or two, in response to Dalsa's size jump?)
2. The 44x33mm and 48x36mm formats are alive and well at Hasselblad, and offer options far less expensive than the new "near 645", so the 28mm and the brand new 35-90/4-5.6 HCD lenses still have a healthy role. In fact the decision to produce that new HCD zoom now to me confirms Hasselblad's intention to sustain two or more sensor size options for the sake of catering to different price ranges. (That zoom also fills the main FOV choice gaps that have been complained about with sub-645 sensors, but only at smaller maximum apertures than some would like.)
Six years after Canon launched its 35mm full frame line there is still a substantial market for Canon EF-S lenses, including the high end ones, for use with cameras like the new 50D. Likewise the Nikon D300 suggests that good quality DX format gear is still going strong, sustaining a market for good quality DX lenses. Likewise for the HCD lenses, I expect: the price premium for substantially larger sensors will probably never be reduced to a negligible level.
Rumors of the death of good quality lenses and bodies in formats smaller than the traditional film formats are greatly exaggerated.
(Especially when 44x33 and 48x36 are instead larger than the dominant film format!)
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1. In partial defense of Hasselblad, it always said "48MM Full Frame", carefully not claiming to fill the full 645 film frame. So now Hasselblad is splitting hairs over a 1.08x crop factor in order to accuse Phase One of exaggeration,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224275\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Medium format has finally done it, they produced too many pdfs, claiming what is full frame, what is not, why one size is better than the other, (and they all at one time or another called something that wasn't full frame full frame), so no finger pointing at Hasselblad . . . they all have done it.
They even make up new formats, True Wide, 48mm Full Frame, real 645 full frame, now we have the Hasselblad HCD crop. Cool.
So I wouldn't worry if you bought a 28mm hasselblad lens and the next sensor is larger than full frame full frame, there will just be a pdf produced that explaings it, which is a whole lot easier than actually making a new lens.
Now with Leica we have a traditional 35mm, (hey their words not mine) shape in a medium format camera. Well, I guess I should say a medium format prototype camera and if they decide to change the frame shape tomorrow, no problem, just write another pdf. But Leica can be forgiven for making a big 35mm camera because it will have the best image quality in the world, (once again their words, not mine) though I'm sure their strategic partners might take a little issue with that last statement.
I Can't wait until I'm at the next dinner party and somebody asks me what type of camera I use.
I'm goiing to say, well right now I'm using a 1.26 crop medium format but am looking forward to the 48mm HCD crop which I plan on replacing with either the true wide or the -8mm Full Frame 645 crop. I'm just waiting for the PDF's to tell me I can go pick it up.
JR
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uh - 40% off that 35-90 would be killler...no such luck tho...
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Now that the prices are below stratospheric, I have a few questions about the H3. Does it tether and stay tethered all day without connectivity issues?
If it gets disconnected can you reconnect without restarting the computer or the like?
How long does the battery last?
Where can I find some good large sample files? (Preferably fashion shot with daylight)
Looking at their site, I am not sure why they would compare their file to a Canon (1Ds2 I think), when the Canon file looks just as good, even at ridiculous zoom levels (see below)
Probably a pipe dream, but does anyone know if these price reductions spill over to the *lenses*?
Also, does anyone know whether there is a definitive test somewhere on the web showing d.r. differences between the current backs and the Canon 1ds3? I know there is lots of hearsay, but what I am looking for is *evidence*. The pixels seem to be about the same size, no?
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Synopsis of pricing is; (Remember this includes the camera, viewfinder & 80mm lens)
H3DII-31 $17,995
H3DII-39 $21,995
H3DII-50 $27,995
H3DII-60 $35,995
H3DII-39MS $30,995 (Multi-shot)
CFII-39 $19,995
CFII-39MS $28,995 (Multi shot)
Nice.....puts Phase one in a pickle, answer is quite easy, don't make CEO profit off hard working photographers - EVERYTIME ONE back is sold.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=224060\")
What about the h3dII-22? Is it going away or just not included in the new pricing scheme. I'm a 35mm shooter looking to slow down next season and shoot more high-end portraiture... so mf is an option I'm considering. But I don't need 30-something megapixels...
... I just want the lenses and the lack of an aa filter and the high sync speed.
Been looking at other mf systems, but the new prices on the blads make for a compelling argument.
Until then, it'll be 5dII
Shelby
[a href=\"http://www.shelbylewis.com]shelbylewis.com[/url]
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Been looking at other mf systems, but the new prices on the blads make for a compelling argument.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224350\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'll be surprised if all the prices aren't aligned again pretty soon. No point in getting the system you didn't want rather than waiting a month. It's worth asking anyway.
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Hi Lisa,
Check this:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/back-testing.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/back-testing.shtml)
Regarding lenses I don't really expect prices to go down. Large format, large elements, big lens, big money.
That said, Mamiya make realtively affordable lenses.
Erik
Now that the prices are below stratospheric, I have a few questions about the H3. Does it tether and stay tethered all day without connectivity issues?
If it gets disconnected can you reconnect without restarting the computer or the like?
How long does the battery last?
Where can I find some good large sample files? (Preferably fashion shot with daylight)
Looking at their site, I am not sure why they would compare their file to a Canon (1Ds2 I think), when the Canon file looks just as good, even at ridiculous zoom levels (see below)
Probably a pipe dream, but does anyone know if these price reductions spill over to the *lenses*?
Also, does anyone know whether there is a definitive test somewhere on the web showing d.r. differences between the current backs and the Canon 1ds3? I know there is lots of hearsay, but what I am looking for is *evidence*. The pixels seem to be about the same size, no?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224346\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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James,
The PDF I read told me about a bigger 35 mm format. Or was it a full 30x45 format or may be a reduced 6x6?
I still think that natural format is something larger than reduced 35 mm but smaller than reduced 8x12". What do you think?
Erik
Two comments to above posts.
1. In partial defense of Hasselblad, it always said "48MM Full Frame", carefully not claiming to fill the full 645 film frame. So now Hasselblad is splitting hairs over a 1.08x crop factor in order to accuse Phase One of exaggeration, which seems like sour grapes over Phase One beating it to announcement of "645 format digital". (I wonder if Kodak is promissing Hasselblad a full 645 format 56x41.5mm sensor in a year or two, in response to Dalsa's size jump?)
2. The 44x33mm and 48x36mm formats are alive and well at Hasselblad, and offer options far less expensive than the new "near 645", so the 28mm and the brand new 35-90/4-5.6 HCD lenses still have a healthy role. In fact the decision to produce that new HCD zoom now to me confirms Hasselblad's intention to sustain two or more sensor size options for the sake of catering to different price ranges. (That zoom also fills the main FOV choice gaps that have been complained about with sub-645 sensors, but only at smaller maximum apertures than some would like.)
Six years after Canon launched its 35mm full frame line there is still a substantial market for Canon EF-S lenses, including the high end ones, for use with cameras like the new 50D. Likewise the Nikon D300 suggests that good quality DX format gear is still going strong, sustaining a market for good quality DX lenses. Likewise for the HCD lenses, I expect: the price premium for substantially larger sensors will probably never be reduced to a negligible level.
Rumors of the death of good quality lenses and bodies in formats smaller than the traditional film formats are greatly exaggerated.
(Especially when 44x33 and 48x36 are instead larger than the dominant film format!)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224275\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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What about the h3dII-22? Is it going away or just not included in the new pricing scheme.
Since Kodak has discontinued the 22 MP chip, I guess all 22 MP backs are going away, including Phase One P25+.
Thorbjørn.
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Thank Erik,
While I had seen that page some time ago, I just checked it out again.
It goes on at length about resolving detail in dollar bills, but what I am most interested in is *dynamic range*. Is there someone who has tested this where the results are on the web someplace?
I am not too concerned with detail, as all modern high end cameras seem to out-resolve the paper that the images are printed on! I mean, I can not tell which camera was used by looking at a print in a gallery or a magazine or…
As such, the only thing that would really compel me to invest in MF would be DR, as the rest seems about equal when it comes to looking at prints.
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Hi,
I have seen some tests in a Swedish periodical for professional about a year ago. They photographed "stouffer edges" and arrived at about one stop advantage for medium format.
There are lots of discussion of dynamic range on these forums. I guess that "Panopeeper" or "Gluijk" will have a lot of input.
Best regards
Erik
Thank Erik,
While I had seen that page some time ago, I just checked it out again.
It goes on at length about resolving detail in dollar bills, but what I am most interested in is *dynamic range*.
I am not too concerned with detail, as all modern high end cameras seem to out-resolve the paper that the images are printed on! I mean, I can not tell which camera was used by looking at a print or a magazine or…
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224369\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Lisa,
your conclusion is kind of true.....but
The extended dynamic range of MF (mostly due to 16bits vs 14bits for the mk3 and soon the 5dmk2) will show slightly more gradation in the highlights and shadows, although I must say that it is visually very subtle.
It does make a difference when processing a 16bit Analog to digital converted file.. For me the best simple example that I have seen is just taking a MF sample file and up-res it, it is kind of incredible what you can do with the file, and as someone stated on this forum recently, they are almost elastic...
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Hi,
I have seen some tests in a Swedish periodical for professional about a year ago. They photographed "stouffer edges" and arrived at about one stop advantage for medium format.
There are lots of discussion of dynamic range on these forums. I guess that "Panopeeper" or "Gluijk" will have a lot of input.
Best regards
Erik
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224372\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
About the magazine test, do you remember which cameras they were using?
Also, I have read some of the panopeeper and gluijk stuff and it seems to be mostly NOT based on head to head tests with *recent* cameras.
To be clear, I am not looking for dense tech talk. What I am interested in is real world tests
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Lisa,
your conclusion is kind of true.....but
The extended dynamic range of MF (mostly due to 16bits vs 14bits for the mk3 and soon the 5dmk2) will show slightly more gradation in the highlights and shadows, although I must say that it is visually very subtle.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224377\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks for the response Raphael. About the bits, I have read numerous times that the extra two bits are empety - i.e., no useful info there. Anyway bits and d.r. are not directly linked, right? Who knows, and it's easy to start down the tech talk path, which is why I just want to SEE what others have found, if it's available. In my experience shooting 1Ds3 and Phase 31mp and 39mp backs, I have not seen the difference in D.R. Even when pushing the files in post.
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Sorry, I'm on a tript so I have no oppurtunity to check. I'd suggest that post a question on this forum. Lot's of users here who own both DSLs and MF backs.
Erik
About the magazine test, do you remember which cameras they were using?
Also, I have read some of the panopeeper and gluijk stuff and it seems to be mostly NOT based on head to head tests with *recent* cameras.
To be clear, I am not looking for dense tech talk. What I am interested in is real world tests
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224378\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Hi,
As far as I understand dynamic range is dependent on the size of the pixel, the larger the pixel the more electrons it can hold, but also on the noise level. Canon DSLRs have very little noise in special. MFDB:s have probably more noise.
If you don't see an advantage in dynamic range in MFDB:s just be happy, you just saved a quite a few kilobox.
Something that surprises me is that there is a lot of talk about dynamic range but very little about lens flare, which in my view also affects dynamic range.
Erik
Thanks for the response Raphael. About the bits, I have read numerous times that the extra two bits are empety - i.e., no useful info there. Anyway bits and d.r. are not directly linked, right? Who knows, and it's easy to start down the tech talk path, which is why I just want to SEE what others have found, if it's available. In my experience shooting 1Ds3 and Phase 31mp and 39mp backs, I have not seen the difference in D.R. Even when pushing the files in post.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224382\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thanks for the response Raphael. About the bits, I have read numerous times that the extra two bits are empety - i.e., no useful info there. Anyway bits and d.r. are not directly linked, right? Who knows, and it's easy to start down the tech talk path, which is why I just want to SEE what others have found, if it's available. In my experience shooting 1Ds3 and Phase 31mp and 39mp backs, I have not seen the difference in D.R. Even when pushing the files in post.
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Lisa,
I'll give you my real world assessment, based on Aptus 22 and Phase P30+ files versus the new breed of 14 bit 35mm digital (1ds3, D3, soon to be 5DII). For stills I shoot for magazines. Glossy mags. I'm shooting portraits, fashion and beauty.
For editorial work, it doesn't matter. A 5D or P30+, whatever, it all looks the same when compressed into a dynamic range of a web press printed magazine page. Its a fact. The only reason to shoot MFDB on an editorial is for the look of medium format. I sold my P30+ for many reasons, although I loved the back. One was that I couldn't justify the cost for editorial, which what I mainly shoot. I usually work with an OK budget. I can rent a back, mark it up, or even better, just shoot some 400nc or 160c, cut out much of the post work.
For commercial work, I can rent whatever I want with a tech. I just don't shoot enough where an MFDB is required, such as cosmetics and hair, to justify carrying the cost.
Another consideration is that shooting with MFDB is a pain. From ISO limitations to the Frankencamera problems with sync, shutter lag, lock ups, etc, its just not a fluid process, although the Phase backs are as good as it gets. Shooting film is easier. Shooting 35mm digital is even easier. Less pain more pictures.
To get specific w/r/t your question regarding dynamic range, well, the P30+ is a little better than the 1ds3. The Dalsa backs (Sinar and Leaf) are a little better than the P30+. The MFDB files still show cleaner shadows, sort of. They are more pliable in post, and for this your retoucher will thank you. Color is better with the MFDB. It almost matches well scanned film.
We just ordered, or pre-ordered, four 5dmkII cameras. The files I've seen show the same smoothness that you see in the P30 files, and I've just seen full size jpgs. All that being said, I plan on picking up a used P21+ real cheap in a year or so, because I do really like the look of MFDB files. Now that MFDB are coming down in price and appear to be going after usability to a degree, they are headed in the right direction.
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They even make up new formats, True Wide, 48mm Full Frame, real 645 full frame, now we have the Hasselblad HCD crop. Cool.
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And my personal favorite obfuscation, Canon's use of "APS-H" for the format of the 1D series (never mind that APS-H is a failed 16:9 film format whose dimensions almost nobody knows.)
Let me take up Michael's idea of eschewing film-think. Stop describing sensor formats in terms of vaguely similar film formats and just call a spade a spade: 13x17.3mm, 15x22.5mm, 16x24mm, 19x29mm, 24x36mm, 30x45mm, 33x44mm, 36x48mm, 40x54mm, 36x56mm, etc.
SLR users can deal with one or two numbers.
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I am on the fence. I have a Mamiya AFDII and was considering getting a MFD back.
I shoot fashion and beauty.
Am I better off: A ) Shooting film and getting good quality scans
B ) Getting a MFD back like a +P21
C ) Getting a Canon 5D MKII
???
All that matters is the image quality. I can deal with everything else.
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To get specific w/r/t your question regarding dynamic range, well, the P30+ is a little better than the 1ds3. The Dalsa backs (Sinar and Leaf) are a little better than the P30+. The MFDB files still show cleaner shadows, sort of. They are more pliable in post, and for this your retoucher will thank you. Color is better with the MFDB. It almost matches well scanned film.
We just ordered, or pre-ordered, four 5dmkII cameras. The files I've seen show the same smoothness that you see in the P30 files, and I've just seen full size jpgs. All that being said, I plan on picking up a used P21+ real cheap in a year or so, because I do really like the look of MFDB files. Now that MFDB are coming down in price and appear to be going after usability to a degree, they are headed in the right direction.
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I'd be VERY VERY CAREFUL here.
- I have a P45+, and shot the 1Ds3 for comparison and agree with what you say.
- But my 1Ds2 had catastrophic skin tone and was unusable for fashion/portrait.
- The 5DMarkII samples from Canon look a lot like the old 1Ds2. In which case no one with a serious fashion/beauty application should go anywhere near it. Concrete testing is advised before a buy. I repeat, the 1Ds3 is clearly ok.
Edmund
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I have both the Canon 1DsMk3 and the Hasselblad 39Mp multi shot.
Canon is like an extension of my hand. I love it.
Hassie is strictly tripod - though 99% of what I do is tripod anyway.
I shoot a lot for museums and galleries. Colour-wise the Hasselblad via Flexcolor has no equal that I've ever seen, particularly in multi-shot mode.
Canon is a great camera. Colour needs a bit more work, but it has its uses. I have differing price structures for both cameras, so there's a use for the two.
Dynamic range of the Hassie is noticably greater. This is most obvious when shooting interiors. The Canon will fail to hold shadow and highlight extremes that the Hassie will.
To use a film analogy, the Hassie is like a 4x5 tranny, where the Canon is more colour negative - though not quite - in terms of its dynamic range.
D.
ps. If you can, shoot the exact same scene with a Canon and an MFDB, cropping to match, and just compare the histograms in CS3. You'll be amazed at what is registering on the MFDB that isn't on the Canon.
pps. If the truth be told, my most favourite camera is my beloved G9. The large Jpegs are phenomenal! And it has the best screen of the three of them!
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I'd be VERY VERY CAREFUL here.
- I have a P45+, and shot the 1Ds3 for comparison and agree with what you say.
- But my 1Ds2 had catastrophic skin tone and was unusable for fashion/portrait.
- The 5DMarkII samples from Canon look a lot like the old 1Ds2. In which case no one with a serious fashion/beauty application should go anywhere near it. Concrete testing is advised before a buy. I repeat, the 1Ds3 is clearly ok.
Edmund
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Probably the most interesting statement I heard about the 5DMkII until now.
Somewhere else in this forum I read Canon used paler colors in the Bayer-matrix to get higher ISO speed, but this was a compromise and doesn´t result in optimal colors.
Bernd
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Probably the most interesting statement I heard about the 5DMkII until now.
Somewhere else in this forum I read Canon used paler colors in the Bayer-matrix to get higher ISO speed, but this was a compromise and doesn´t result in optimal colors.
Bernd
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This is based on looking at web jpegs?
I am not too concerned about it I guess, seeing as the 5D2 usese the same amazing chip that the 1Ds3 uses, but with larger microlenses, etc. Time will tell I guess...
Dinarius and TMARK, et al., thanks for the info.
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This is based on looking at web jpegs?
I am not too concerned about it I guess, seeing as the 5D2 usese the same amazing chip that the 1Ds3 uses, but with larger microlenses, etc. Time will tell I guess...
Dinarius and TMARK, et al., thanks for the info.
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Yes, the sources are yet questionable. Let´s wait until there are some real experiences.
Bernd
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I'd be VERY VERY CAREFUL here.
- I have a P45+, and shot the 1Ds3 for comparison and agree with what you say.
- But my 1Ds2 had catastrophic skin tone and was unusable for fashion/portrait.
- The 5DMarkII samples from Canon look a lot like the old 1Ds2. In which case no one with a serious fashion/beauty application should go anywhere near it. Concrete testing is advised before a buy. I repeat, the 1Ds3 is clearly ok.
Edmund
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As I actually shoot beauty I can assure you that the 1ds2 had great skin tones for beauty as long as you light correctly and work the file in post. What I did not like about the ds2 (and all 35mm digital of that generation) was how the high lights blew out and how quickly you ran out of head room. I had to light much flatter than I did for film. I also did not like how flat the color could be and how muddy the shadows could be. Lighting and post fixed all of these issues, but it was a pain. The DB's shine in these areas. The ds3 is real real nice, solving most of these problems, getting 95% of what an MFDB can get you in an easier to use package.
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Lisa,
The sample photo from blad comparing to a "35mm alternative" is hilarious! Are they really just trying to drive people to Canon?
Now that the prices are below stratospheric, I have a few questions about the H3. Does it tether and stay tethered all day without connectivity issues?
If it gets disconnected can you reconnect without restarting the computer or the like?
How long does the battery last?
Where can I find some good large sample files? (Preferably fashion shot with daylight)
Looking at their site, I am not sure why they would compare their file to a Canon (1Ds2 I think), when the Canon file looks just as good, even at ridiculous zoom levels (see below)
Probably a pipe dream, but does anyone know if these price reductions spill over to the *lenses*?
Also, does anyone know whether there is a definitive test somewhere on the web showing d.r. differences between the current backs and the Canon 1ds3? I know there is lots of hearsay, but what I am looking for is *evidence*. The pixels seem to be about the same size, no?
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Don't get too bent out of whack over the 5DII's colors yet. Like the 1Ds3, the 5DII has the ability to upload custom ICC profiles into the camera which are then stored with the CR2 file and baked into the JPEGs. Everybody dismisses color styles as a kindergarten feature, but in truth it's the same feature as C1 Pro's color editor. And the cool part is - this can uploaded into the camera. No waiting to get back to your computer to test out a new style. OF course, once at your computer the color style can be changed (except on JPEGs of course). So, comparing the colors from a 1Ds2 v 1Ds3 v 5DII is a moving target and will vary based upon which ICC profile is loaded into the 1Ds3 and 5DII. The 1Ds2 did NOT have this functionality in-camera. Here are some Canon color preset color styles - including ones optimized for portrait type work -
http://www.canon.co.jp/imaging/picturestyle/index.html (http://www.canon.co.jp/imaging/picturestyle/index.html)
To use the color styles, DPP is required. Other raw format imaging software dismisses the info.
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Don't get too bent out of whack over the 5DII's colors yet. Like the 1Ds3, the 5DII has the ability to
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The Canons make great skin tones. Early on the 1ds2 had a lot of red, but you can adjust it and work it down. The 1ds3 is much easier as you can make your own tones.
But as far as faces and beauty the Canons are fine with the 3 being much better than the 2
This image was from the 1ds2 and I prefer the Canon L's especially the 85 for beauty because it's slightly softer and less brittle on faces.
[attachment=8528:attachment]
In fact under a lot of situations I find the mfdbs to be too color sensitve and pick up ambient bounce of color. Under direct light you don't see it but soft light or shade it really comes in.
Regardless of brand or format my suggestion is before spending ANY money to find the camera, back or dslr you like and rent it, or have the dealer loan in and shoot it EXACTLY the way you work, with lighting, style, number of files, workflow, etc. etc.
If the dealer can't do this, then find another dealer. If the camera or back combination is not available for testing, go to another brand, but don't buy a ________ on a Mamiya, hoping it works well with your RZ or anythign else.
Test it exactly and try to find the previous model, becuase it probably will give the same exact image quality and usabiliity for 1/2 the costs.
JR
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.
.
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In fact under a lot of situations I find the mfdbs to be too color sensitve and pick up ambient bounce of color. Under direct light you don't see it but soft light or shade it really comes in.
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.
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I've noticed this too in my phase files and thought that at first it was somehow over emphasizing the reflected colors but when I really opened my eyes to see what was really there I had to realize that the phase was doing a really good job of capturing reality. It just looks strange to see it on a screen since our minds process out stuff like color in the shadows. After having checked this out, my view is these are the subtle things that MFDB's can do that add realism and palpability to the images.
On a digression, maybe over time all the new digital media is changing the way we accept and process information?
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I've noticed this too in my phase files and thought that at first it was somehow over emphasizing the reflected colors but when I really opened my eyes to see what was really there I had to realize that the phase was doing a really good job of capturing reality. It just looks strange to see it on a screen since our minds process out stuff like color in the shadows. After having checked this out, my view is these are the subtle things that MFDB's can do that add realism and palpability to the images.
On a digression, maybe over time all the new digital media is changing the way we accept and process information?
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It really depends on what you shoot, where you shoot it.
Under shade or soft ambient light the db's are very color sensitive and if the subject has light translucent skin it can look very grey. Darker skin tones obviously photograph with a healtier look.
The DB's are good, but they just see everything and sometimes seeing everything is not that great.
Regardless whatever you use, use it in the conditions you work in.
JR
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It's an interesting subject because sometimes we don't really see what's there - our eyes/brain just has its own filters and processing. Maybe how we see has to do with what we want to see and how we think as individuals too. The skin may look grey in some light but we wouldn't see it that way or want to. But when its in print we see it differently and are more critical? This seems to be true with DOF and DR as well. In real vision we see only some things in focus and part of the DR but as we scan the vista our brain assembles the information for us like Helicon focus and bracketeer would do. I think we interpret images in print differently so that causes the disconnect. My sense is the average person filters out or downplays shadows and reflections to a large degree. I'm sort of interested to see the truth and have in a way marveled at the differences between what I thought I saw and what I got in capture. That being said, were I doing more ad work I'd need to work harder at learning what people want to see.
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It's an interesting subject because sometimes we don't really see what's there - our eyes/brain just has its own filters and processing. Maybe how we see has to do with what we want to see and how we think as individuals too. The skin may look grey in some light but we wouldn't see it that way or want to. But when its in print we see it differently and are more critical? This seems to be true with DOF and DR as well. In real vision we see only some things in focus and part of the DR but as we scan the vista our brain assembles the information for us like Helicon focus and bracketeer would do. I think we interpret images in print differently so that causes the disconnect.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=224683\")
I'm not to sure about what your saying, but bottom line is this.
If you take 12 subjects of varying skin tones light translucent to warm brown and photograph them in controlled conditions in the studio, the db's will be so specific in color that the light skin tones go almost grey the warm skin tones have more life in them.
Consequenlty do this with the 1ds3 and the skin tones have more of a continuous look and more pleasing.
NOW. I'm saying the db's are bad, in some many instances they are very, very good, but I do believe they need to work on some of thier color response and offer some more options in software for viewing and post processing.
One thing the db's do well is under tungsten light. They have less orange cast and seem to resonate better at lower kelvin.
This is a p30 shot with tungsten.
(http://russellrutherford.com/fashion/pictures/rr_fashion_0040.jpg)
This also doesn't mean that a Canon is actually better than a db, but I have multiple instance where I shoot different cameras and more than once a client has looked at a db preview and a Canon preview and requested the Canon.
Still, it doesn't mean that we can't get great skin tones out of a db because I and others do, though sometimes it is more work, sometimes not, that is why I always say test these things in your own lighting and style before writing the check.
Look at this hasselblad page and you tell me which base image is more pleasing.
[a href=\"http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/virtual-demo-overview/hasselblad-image-quality/natural-color.aspx]http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/virt...ural-color.aspx[/url]
Not that the visual content of the photographs are that good, but Idon't think I'd leave this demo up if I was Hasselblad.
JR
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This is a p30 shot with tungsten.
(http://russellrutherford.com/fashion/pictures/rr_fashion_0040.jpg)
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/virt...ural-color.aspx (http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/virtual-demo-overview/hasselblad-image-quality/natural-color.aspx)
Not that the visual content of the photographs are that good, but Idon't think I'd leave this demo up if I was Hasselblad.
JR
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This tungsten shot looks like great color James. What was the light source?
I posted that hassy page because it makes the Canon look better to my eye. And the boxing shot James posted once again makes the Canon looks a lot better there too. And this is an old Canon. Sheesh. They are creating their own bad press.
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I posted that hassy page because it makes the Canon look better to my eye. And the boxing shot James posted once again makes the Canon looks a lot better there too. And this is an old Canon. Sheesh. They are creating their own bad press.
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No offense to the guys who created this PR for Hasselblad...but...THEY ARE IDIOTS.
They do their product a great disservice.
Before you buy a $30,000 digital back or for that matter a $3,000 DSLR, try it out.
Do a head to head test in a situation representative of what you shoot with the camera you're using now or whatever else you're considering.
Then go back and work the hell out of the files to see for yourself.
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It's an interesting subject because sometimes we don't really see what's there - our eyes/brain just has its own filters and processing. Maybe how we see has to do with what we want to see and how we think as individuals too. The skin may look grey in some light but we wouldn't see it that way or want to. But when its in print we see it differently and are more critical? This seems to be true with DOF and DR as well. In real vision we see only some things in focus and part of the DR but as we scan the vista our brain assembles the information for us like Helicon focus and bracketeer would do. I think we interpret images in print differently so that causes the disconnect. My sense is the average person filters out or downplays shadows and reflections to a large degree. I'm sort of interested to see the truth and have in a way marveled at the differences between what I thought I saw and what I got in capture. That being said, were I doing more ad work I'd need to work harder at learning what people want to see.
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I do get what you are saying Eric. The way we see or assemble a visual impression of a scene is very different to how it can be photographically represented. It's not all about sharpness and contrast, it is actually about how you value what you are looking at. And, if you did ad work you have to learn to represent other people's values, visual and otherwise.
Back on technical topics, I do think it is great advice to work with the rig you are considering shooting with before buying. I'll have to take that advice myself when I can afford it. I just have to make do with my lowly Rolliflex, Arcas, and Alpa, while I use the 1dsmk2 and 5d for whatever is required.
To be honest, in a camera, you want a good companion that is going to help you out. Not be perfect and yet make up for it in some big way like image quality or elegance of use or just sheer durability.
Currently I find the iPhone camera to produce quite nice color and image although it does go haywire in some cases. It appears to be quite wide angle, similar to a 28 I would hazard. 2 mp right?
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Don't get too bent out of whack over the 5DII's colors yet. Like the 1Ds3, the 5DII has the ability to upload custom ICC profiles into the camera which are then stored with the CR2 file and baked into the JPEGs. Everybody dismisses color styles as a kindergarten feature, but in truth it's the same feature as C1 Pro's color editor. And the cool part is - this can uploaded into the camera. No waiting to get back to your computer to test out a new style. OF course, once at your computer the color style can be changed (except on JPEGs of course). So, comparing the colors from a 1Ds2 v 1Ds3 v 5DII is a moving target and will vary based upon which ICC profile is loaded into the 1Ds3 and 5DII. The 1Ds2 did NOT have this functionality in-camera. Here are some Canon color preset color styles - including ones optimized for portrait type work -
http://www.canon.co.jp/imaging/picturestyle/index.html (http://www.canon.co.jp/imaging/picturestyle/index.html)
To use the color styles, DPP is required. Other raw format imaging software dismisses the info.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224648\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Are these scene-referred or output-referred profiles ?
Edmund
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Does anyone know where I can find full-size samples from recent Hasselblad backs on the web?
Or RAW files?
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Does anyone know where I can find full-size samples from recent Hasselblad backs on the web?
Or RAW files?
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I really do not understand all the BS of color when it all comes down to how the people at the printers are going to screw it all up anyways.
Most magzines and just about every company has their own way of printing and their profiles to boot.
I cannot tell you how may times I get everything the way I like it and when it comes out in the magazine it loos lie shit.rom one page to the other it changes the color depending what was printing o the back of it or front of it etc..
I beleive all the Color hype is BS.
What james says it correct b/c it is the basis.
My favorite color was from the 1Ds original. it has the most "film" like look to me.
Apparently the MII has gotten that back a little.
I find the Phase files WAY overly saturated.
I tend to like the desaturated/muted look of the Canons. I can get close with my p30 but prefer the Canon beleive it or not.
I will be buying a 5DII and the 85 1.2 for sure....
Snook
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A lot of the Canon 'color' interpretation (love it or leave it) is due to the lenses used. Be it the coatings on Canon glass and/or firmware tweaks done in camera when the camera reads the ROM info to boost saturation, contrast or what have you.
Shoot a scene with a given handful of L lenses and a 5D, 1D_, then shoot the same scene on the same body with a Leica or Zeiss or CV SL lens via adapter and you get dramatically (IMHO) better color. More 'as remembered, no reddish casts (some 5Ds were guilty of same), no over-the-top reds or yellowy greens. Zeiss will typically also have more contrast than Leica or CV and a more cooler WB.
Some key aspects of color delivery will always come down to CCD vs CMOS, sensor used and unknown firmware tweaks conducted in camera, but a LOT comes down to glass used as well.
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Once you could go online and review prices from around the world, things started changing for "camera" stores. (At least in the U.S.)
Customers would walk into their local store and say, I can get a Nikon for $200 less if I buy it at B+H.
At first the dealers, even the large west coast dealers, resisted. Some dealers went under, some adapted and now most reputable dealers have very close to the same prices.
I think this Hasselblad announcement will have the same effect. You will see potential db buyers walk into their Phase, Leaf or Sinar is that now Leanar, (sorry Theirry I couldn't resist) dealer and throw down the Hasselblad prices.
It will be interesting what the response is.
JR
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Sorry James, I couldn't resist either:
No, it's Sinar for the next couple of ....., and my guess is that it's Leaf for the next couple of ... as well.
Best regards,
Thierry
... or Sinar is that now Leanar, (sorry Theirry I couldn't resist) ...
JR
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I've owned the Hasselblad H1 & H2 with P45+ on it, and tested at length the Phase/Mamiya with P45+ and I'm currently testing the Leaf AFI 7 - 33MP.
Some of MY candid impressions:
Hasselblad:
Hands down the best camera/user definable controls - in camera user definable attributes.
Camera body - fit me great and carried well on a strap when hiking.
Lenses: Decent glass but not up to what I was used to with Schneider/Rodenstock on my 4x5 or even as good as I was getting with CFi lenses on my 503cw with P45, but close.
Sensor - can't say as I only used Phase P45 and P45+ on H1 & H2 respectively - need to check it out in the future but inability to put back on a Technical camera will probably preclude need to test it.
RAW software - used ACR for all of my work so I can't say about Hasselblads RAW developer.
Back is not oriented to being used on a Technical camera. Saw a ridiculous contraption that allowed it but it was more of a joke than useful for anyone doing field work.
Pricing: Best for the buck at the moment.
Why would I buy: Great camera, but closed system would deter me. Wish when they dropped prices they had said system will be opened up again. If they had, I'd have a hard time saying no.
Phase:
Camera user definable controls - not impressed at all. Hasselblad way ahead on this one.
Camera body - do not like - nothing in the right place for my size hands and the placement of the camera straps require that the camera/lens be carried in a horizontal format when on your shoulder. No hot shoe, etc.
Lenses: Adequate, but not overly impressed. In testing the new WA, I found the corners too soft for my taste, or the price they ask for it. The 150 tests were excellent.
RAW software - as good as it gets! Extremely well designed compared to competitions.
Back can be used on Technical Camera - a real plus!
Pricing: Needs to catch up to Hasselblad.
Would I buy: Great support, excellent array, wrong camera body to my taste and Leaf glass is frankly better in all of the tests I've run to date - will be running more this week.
Leaf:
Camera user definable controls: Not impressed.
Schneider glass - test are blowing away the Phase/Mamiya glass. Considering it's a 33MP array, it's more than making up for the lack of MP in the quality of images from the lens!
Camera body - feels as good as the Hasselblad H, which is perfect for me. Some concern that the AE and AF settings button could be moved inadvertently. Needs far more user definable controls and presets.
RAW software - they should be embarrassed.
Back can be used on a Technical Camera - a real plus!
Pricing: Needs to catch up to Hasselblad and get in line with, or beat Phase.
Would I buy: Love the glass, like the camera body, software is beyond poor, open system - will depend on rest of this weeks testing results AND what Leaf does to get their pricing in line with Hasselblad/Phase. Currently you can buy a Phase with body, lens and 39MP back for considerable less than the Leaf with 33MP back. This is not even considering what Hasselblad did at Photokina on pricing!
Thus, the ideal camera for me and my landscape work is the Hasselblad camera body, Leaf Schneider lenses, Phase RAW processor. As to back, need more testing to define Phase or Leaf - right now leaning to Leaf - greens on foliage look real good and would probably look a lot better if I could develop in Phase's Capture 4 software!
Offerred in the spirit of sharing. Please remember, I do landscape work, not studio, portraits, products, etc. These areas of need could dramatically alter the above, but their needs are not my concern in my evaluations.
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Lust4Life,
Landscape shooter too; I have to agree with much of your post. I went from Canon film to H2 film to H3DII39; I seriously considered Phase versus H3DII39 but the II series impressed me (besides the 3" LCD, the notion of a complete system interested me). Obviously I have no issue with this "closed" system concept (I do understand it if you have lots of backs from different manufacturers--I don't); I also wish I could attach a film back to the H3DII39 - because without it I'm limited now to 32 second (soon to be 64 second) exposure. This was a huge issue. 64 seconds is still too fast, but for most of my artwork, 64 seconds will be sufficient. I'll probably end up getting an H2F body if necessary (I have the film back and viewfinder, not a huge investment compared to the overall system cost).
When I switched to MF from 35mm, the H1/H2 was the best MF body out there (by far) and I think it still is. I think the viewfinder (very bright) is the best as well. It's well designed and works well for me.
I've been working on the PC version of Phocus for a week or two now and I think you'd like it (if you're PC - if you're Mac, Phocus has been out for about 6 months already). Huge improvement over Flexcolor. I think they are working hard on it, it looks near ready to be released. My experience with several people at Hasselblad has been that they really care about the success of their product line and company--just don't try to write the president--you'll never hear back.
I also look forward to the new tilt-shift adapter that is soon to be released. I hear there are some other add-ons but I think Hasselblad needs to do some better marketing about their add-on information. I have no information about what they are other than rumors I read on forums.
If I were to consider an MF system today, I'd do Hasselblad again, even though it was high priced, but now, with these new prices, it seems to be a no-brainer.
Kind regards,
Derek Jecxz
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I'm really glad that the pricing is being reviewed by all the MF makers.
I will return to MF if the prices ALL come into alignment.
At Photokina;
I looked at the Sinar Hy6 took a few shots of nothing just for the feel.
It felt right, like a 500 series Hasselblad, the weight, the lens focusing ring everything about perfect if you are used to a 500 series. In the end if all the controls are in the right place, the mechanics work as expected this makes it a familiar friend. I just can't get used to a H series Hasselblad, Nor will I buy into their closed system>ever.
I looked at the new Leaf rotating back which is perfect. In fact better than the Sinar as it is internal. Leaf's pricing on things like adapter plates are many times less than the exaggerated prices form Sinar. If you are planning on switching accessories or bodies, look into the pricing before getting in.
If Sinar has aligned the pricing of accessories for the Hy6 to that of the very good pricing of the camera/backs then all the better.
I didn't get to see the Phase Mamiya set ups though. I wouldn't say that I would find the 645 style back to be easy to get used considering I bought my first 500 CM in 1980.
The Phase backs though , I'll have to try before getting into the MF digital system.
With the new Nikons, Canon 5D II they are priced so low that they can be the other tool when needed which the MF cannot handle.
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Derek,
One area that must be a differentiator between us is my need/desire to move the respective digital back to a Technical camera. My logic is using say a Leaf AFI with Leaf back and the great Schneider lenses for my street work and misc. landscape work.
When I'm going for the grand landscape shot, I want to at least have the option open to me of moving the DB to a Cambo WRS or Alpa 12, again with the Schneider/Rodenstock lenses.
Thus, that is why I'm ruling out the Hasselblad closed system, along with fact that if I'm going to get married to a company, I'll make the decision out of loyalty to their support and quality, not because they told me I have to accept them only. I would have upgraded to the H3 and stayed with Hasselblad IF they had not dictated me into a closed system. I want the Freedom to choose!
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Derek,
One area that must be a differentiator between us is my need/desire to move the respective digital back to a Technical camera. My logic is using say a Leaf AFI with Leaf back and the great Schneider lenses for my street work and misc. landscape work.
When I'm going for the grand landscape shot, I want to at least have the option open to me of moving the DB to a Cambo WRS or Alpa 12, again with the Schneider/Rodenstock lenses.
Thus, that is why I'm ruling out the Hasselblad closed system, along with fact that if I'm going to get married to a company, I'll make the decision out of loyalty to their support and quality, not because they told me I have to accept them only. I would have upgraded to the H3 and stayed with Hasselblad IF they had not dictated me into a closed system. I want the Freedom to choose!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225221\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What you say makes sense. I don't do any technical camera work - I'd like to in the future, and you are right, it's not quite clear from Hasselblad how you can adapt an H3DII to a view camera - they say you can - this is an example of product information marketing that I mentioned. I also understand powering the H3DII back on a view camera is an issue since the power comes from the grip.
Please also don't mistake my post about Hasselblad as my having loyalty towards them, I'm not a spokesperson for Hasselblad. But I don't see them as "dictating" a "closed system" any more than Canon or Nikon does.
I think the case can be made either way: they closed it to conserve on development and limit the amount of programming and support or they did it to keep more of the profits. Perhaps the cost/amount/time of software development invested into the H system makes it in their interests to keep more of the profits--which makes complete sense to me, but yes, unfortunate for you, I do see that.
Be well.
Kind regards,
Derek
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Derek,
One area that must be a differentiator between us is my need/desire to move the respective digital back to a Technical camera. My logic is using say a Leaf AFI with Leaf back and the great Schneider lenses for my street work and misc. landscape work.
When I'm going for the grand landscape shot, I want to at least have the option open to me of moving the DB to a Cambo WRS or Alpa 12, again with the Schneider/Rodenstock lenses.
Thus, that is why I'm ruling out the Hasselblad closed system, along with fact that if I'm going to get married to a company, I'll make the decision out of loyalty to their support and quality, not because they told me I have to accept them only. I would have upgraded to the H3 and stayed with Hasselblad IF they had not dictated me into a closed system. I want the Freedom to choose!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225221\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The H3DII series, in fact all the hasselblad back, can be removed from the body and used on a technical or view camera.
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The H3DII series, in fact all the hasselblad back, can be removed from the body and used on a technical or view camera.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=225259\")
This thread made me go and confirm this. You are correct and here is the link to the Hasselblad View Camera PDF:
[a href=\"http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1342814/uk_hvc_datasheet_v2.pdf]http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1342814...atasheet_v2.pdf[/url]
I found this document at:
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/downloads/dat...s/h-system.aspx (http://www.hasselbladusa.com/downloads/datasheets/h-system.aspx)
It took me a few minutes to find because it's labeled as "Technical info - HVC" with a description of "Technical information about the HVC" - which does not say "View Camera" to me - but I found it nonetheless. Does HVC mean View Camera?
I have not read the entire document yet, but there is a power adapter for the back.
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This thread made me go and confirm this. You are correct and here is the link to the Hasselblad View Camera PDF:
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1342814...atasheet_v2.pdf (http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1342814/uk_hvc_datasheet_v2.pdf)
I found this document at:
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/downloads/dat...s/h-system.aspx (http://www.hasselbladusa.com/downloads/datasheets/h-system.aspx)
It took me a few minutes to find because it's labeled as "Technical info - HVC" with a description of "Technical information about the HVC" - which does not say "View Camera" to me - but I found it nonetheless. Does HVC mean View Camera?
I have not read the entire document yet, but there is a power adapter for the back.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225264\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Derek,
The HVC is the Hasselblad View Camera mounting system, it goes on a Linhof Sliding Back and allows you to power the back with an H series battery, and also allows you to use the 90 degree or waist level view finder and H ground glass ont he system, it is extremely bright for composing and focusing.
i was talking to the Alpa rep the other day, he uses an H3DII39 back on his Alpa with the image bank, a really great solution!
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i was talking to the Alpa rep the other day, he uses an H3DII39 back on his Alpa with the image bank, a really great solution!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225268\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Great solution indeed more space for images. To my knowledge you cannot use H3DII39 back on Alpa without image banks and I wonder why? is this going to change in near future because the prices are good and I would love to get in to MF.
Anyone using Flextight X5 or X1?
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Great solution indeed more space for images. To my knowledge you cannot use H3DII39 back on Alpa without image banks and I wonder why? is this going to change in near future because the prices are good and I would love to get in to MF.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225272\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That is correct, you do need the image bank, or be tethered to a computer to power the H3D back when on a view camera, etc.
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There is a very serious marketing battle in progress!
Will Phase One respond and adjust their pricing structure to be more competitive?
Joe Bossuyt
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224047\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
They won't if they marry Leica aka Madame Bovary,
but if they want to stay on the top of the game obviously they have to!!!
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As I said in my post, Hasselblad contraption to mount their back on a Tech camera is everything but elegant compared to slapping a P45+ onto the back of a Cambo or Alpa.
Find me an elegant, simple solution from Hasselblad for my restricted space in my already too heavy back pack and I'll buy it.
That is correct, you do need the image bank, or be tethered to a computer to power the H3D back when on a view camera, etc.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225273\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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As I said in my post, Hasselblad contraption to mount their back on a Tech camera is everything but elegant compared to slapping a P45+ onto the back of a Cambo or Alpa.
Find me an elegant, simple solution from Hasselblad for my restricted space in my already too heavy back pack and I'll buy it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225334\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Isn't there a "Power per Firewire" solution for this problem??? Some device? From China?
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As I said in my post, Hasselblad contraption to mount their back on a Tech camera is everything but elegant compared to slapping a P45+ onto the back of a Cambo or Alpa.
Find me an elegant, simple solution from Hasselblad for my restricted space in my already too heavy back pack and I'll buy it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225334\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Get a CF back. Small and very versatile Hasselblad back that uses adapterplates to mount on all sorts of camera bodies. Fits on your Cambo or Alpa without the need of anything but a battery and CF card (or tethered) when fitted with the proper adapterplate. It also comes in a multishot version.
Why is everybody only looking at the H3 ?
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The upcoming partial solution from Hasselblad is the HTS adapter (actually, a huge plus to their system as far as I'm concerned). Most of a view camera in a 1.5 lb unit that fits on the front of an H3D body! Expensive, but cheaper than a view camera and a separate set of lenses. I would agree that buying an H3D for the back if you don't want the SLR is dumb, but for those who want an SLR and a view camera, the HTS certainly offers an interesting option...
-Dan
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Get a CF back. Small and very versatile Hasselblad back that uses adapterplates to mount on all sorts of camera bodies. Fits on your Cambo or Alpa without the need of anything but a battery and CF card (or tethered) when fitted with the proper adapterplate. It also comes in a multishot version.
Why is everybody only looking at the H3 ?
Does the CF39 fit Hasselblad V series?
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Does the CF39 fit Hasselblad V series?
Yes.
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Nick,
Can the digital back that comes with the the H1D be used on a view/technical camera?
Thanks,
Kumar
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Yes.
Thank you Nick. I had always had the impression that only CFV fits the V series and hence did not look further.
Henry
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Thank you Nick. I had always had the impression that only CFV fits the V series and hence did not look further.
Henry
The CFV is a different back. The CFV is specifically designed for the V. A 16MP square sensor.
The CF comes as either a 22 (discontinued now) or a 39. They come in multishot versions as well. The CF uses adapterplates, these are available for Contax, Mamiya, V, H & Rollei (generally speaking).
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I confirmed that I could use the H3DII 39 back on my Cambo, which has the H adapter plate IF I purchase the Hasselblad Image Bank II and a Sony L type battery. Use Firewire 800/800 cable and transfers should be quick.
Now, it's a fairly simple solution for field work as long as I don't strangle myself with the cable. Would probably find a way to Velcro the Image Bank II(IB) to the tripod leg.
Cost of the IB seems rather high though - $2000.00 for the II version with a 160GB HD. Nice mark up Hasselblad, and it doesn't even come with the needed battery???!!
But it would get me the camera body that I like the best for my street work and yet still be able to use the back on the Cambo.
No, not as simple as moving the self powered back of a Leaf/Phase to the Cambo, but I don't like the Phase camera body and the Leaf prices are substantially higher for the body/back - at least I've not heard of their dropping their prices to get competitive with Hasselblad.
Difficult decision, but with an acceptable solution to the Hassie back on Cambo, price will now rule my decision, and at the moment Hassie is ahead in that arena.
Derek,
The HVC is the Hasselblad View Camera mounting system, it goes on a Linhof Sliding Back and allows you to power the back with an H series battery, and also allows you to use the 90 degree or waist level view finder and H ground glass ont he system, it is extremely bright for composing and focusing.
i was talking to the Alpa rep the other day, he uses an H3DII39 back on his Alpa with the image bank, a really great solution!
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No, not as simple as moving the self powered back of a Leaf/Phase to the Cambo, but I don't like the Phase camera body and the Leaf prices are substantially higher for the body/back - at least I've not heard of their dropping their prices to get competitive with Hasselblad.
My guess is that there are war-meetings at all the major MF companies/dealers to figure out how to deal with the Hasselblad price-drop, and that there will be some sort of reaction from each of the companies. It is not clear how long it will take to bubble down to the users though.
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Great solution indeed more space for images. To my knowledge you cannot use H3DII39 back on Alpa without image banks and I wonder why? is this going to change in near future because the prices are good and I would love to get in to MF.
Anyone using Flextight X5 or X1?
I have FT646 and X5, as H3DII-39.
Scaners are very very good. X5 is very fast, quality is like in drum killers ($100000)
You must test it . But I tell you, be careful!! If you try it, every scanner will be only a toy.
Freak
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It's also possible that some of the MF companies are thinking of merging or exiting. Between Leaf, Sinar, Hasselblad, Phase, Mamiya, and now to some extent Leica and rumored Nikon I'd say that the market is pretty crowded, and economic conditions out there are bloody.
Edmund
My guess is that there are war-meetings at all the major MF companies/dealers to figure out how to deal with the Hasselblad price-drop, and that there will be some sort of reaction from each of the companies. It is not clear how long it will take to bubble down to the users though.
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It's also possible that some of the MF companies are thinking of merging or exiting. Between Leaf, Sinar, Hasselblad, Phase, Mamiya, and now to some extent Leica and rumored Nikon I'd say that the market is pretty crowded, and economic conditions out there are bloody.
Edmund
I think more than pricing, the meetings are probably addressing the current business/sales/marketing/upgrade process.
If Hasselblad's annoucement had any real change in direction it seems to me the most important element was they desire to get away from the 2 year trade up process.
To me this moves hasselblad into the same sales model as Canon and the other professional dslrs and like the term or not, most of the new medium format offerings are dslrs, just dslrs with bigger frame sizes.
Actually I don't find the Hasselblad prices that revolutionary. For two years I've owned a 31mpx medium format system for under $17,000 with the P30+ and the Contax, with overall prices for lenses and accessories even more economical in price than Hasselblad, so if I can do this, obviously Phase, Leaf, Sinar can also hit the same numbers.
They might have to rethink where they place their marketing investment, towards the higher end systems or the lower entry level systems, but as far as price, with a little creative thought I think they can match Hasselblad.
It's the trade in/trade up system that makes the real difference in the base business model.
It's interesting, for years Hasselblad has recognized that their real competition is Canon and maybe Nikon, not Phase, Leaf or Sinar.
Now I assume this will move the other three makers to respond to Hasselblad.
Obviously Leica sees Hasselblad as competition as every Leica video I've seen from annoucekina mentioned Hasselblad.
JR
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It's also possible that some of the MF companies are thinking of merging or exiting. Between Leaf, Sinar, Hasselblad, Phase, Mamiya, and now to some extent Leica and rumored Nikon I'd say that the market is pretty crowded, and economic conditions out there are bloody.
...on the other hand, the market is moving upwards, more and more people pick up DSLRs, and it is getting harder to differentiate oneself. There is a possibility that the coming price-war in the MF segment will actually democratize the segment and bring it back to life, with more high-end pros moving up the scale to be able to offer something more than Joe Garage with his 1Ds3 and off-the-shelf 85L.
Time will show
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...on the other hand, the market is moving upwards, more and more people pick up DSLRs, and it is getting harder to differentiate oneself. There is a possibility that the coming price-war in the MF segment will actually democratize the segment and bring it back to life, with more high-end pros moving up the scale to be able to offer something more than Joe Garage with his 1Ds3 and off-the-shelf 85L.
Time will show
I just noticed, but Hasselblad updated their site. They are emphasing $21995. for H3DII-39 (39MP) with viewfinder & 80mm lens. I think that is the sweet spot. Once they get you in @ $17995 for 31MP system, them why not 39MP @ $22k. Interesting times indeed, with stock market & shortage of short term business loans, I am not sure the climate for magazines survival.
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I think more than pricing, the meetings are probably addressing the current business/sales/marketing/upgrade process.
If Hasselblad's annoucement had any real change in direction it seems to me the most important element was they desire to get away from the 2 year trade up process.
To me this moves hasselblad into the same sales model as Canon and the other professional dslrs and like the term or not, most of the new medium format offerings are dslrs, just dslrs with bigger frame sizes.
Actually I don't find the Hasselblad prices that revolutionary. For two years I've owned a 31mpx medium format system for under $17,000 with the P30+ and the Contax, with overall prices for lenses and accessories even more economical in price than Hasselblad, so if I can do this, obviously Phase, Leaf, Sinar can also hit the same numbers.
They might have to rethink where they place their marketing investment, towards the higher end systems or the lower entry level systems, but as far as price, with a little creative thought I think they can match Hasselblad.
It's the trade in/trade up system that makes the real difference in the base business model.
It's interesting, for years Hasselblad has recognized that their real competition is Canon and maybe Nikon, not Phase, Leaf or Sinar.
Now I assume this will move the other three makers to respond to Hasselblad.
Obviously Leica sees Hasselblad as competition as every Leica video I've seen from annoucekina mentioned Hasselblad.
JR
As you see James. It;s not so easy to understand for normal people how to do the business. Let;s give it to people who knows.
Numbers can;t cheat, If you want to buy Phase P45+ you must spent about 27 000 Euro +VAT ( EUROPE) + body it's a lot of money. Hasselblad H3DII 39 with 80mm lens you can buy for 15000 Euro +VAT. You don;t realy see a revolutionary prices? You must be blind. If you are happy with quallity of your contax and P30+ and your clients too. You are very lucky man.
Why Hasselblad recognized that their real competition is Canon or Nikon? Maybe that Phase users don;t see anything else only their exelent equipment. It was easier to get some new customer who want to join into MF. But right now Phase must see competition in Hasselblad.
German people are very smart. So they see competition in Hasselblad, because they see that Hasselblad is a leader. It's simple.
But i Think that we should do someting more interesting... maybe shooting
Freak
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Work hard and be nice to people
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I use a Haseblad H3D11-39 on Alpa. The reason you need the hardrive form Hasselblad is that the back is powered by the H body battery or the drive if connected to an Alpa or a view camera. Leaving initial cost aside - I thought that the hardrive would be a real hassle in use. I have found much to my surprise that the Hardrive is very easy to put in a pocket and forget about - with the added bonus of delivering a huge number of files in store capability as well as fast transfer to computer.
A lot of people 'spray' misinformation based on no user based knowledge or experience in these 'forums'. When they get corrected - they dont disappear into the ether but usually pop up in some other thread 'espousing BS' and confusing people yet again.
I prefer Hasselblad on Apa to Leaf - because when I was shooting with LEaf - the fact thathe battery hangs below the back makes it a real pain in the posterior for ptripod mounting. Regarding pricing - unfortunately I paid a full price for my Hasselblad back - a few months BEFORE their new pricing was announced - after getting a bit miffed for a week or so-I am now over it. I agree that other makers will have to drop their prices in due course - which is good news for everyone in the longer term.
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I prefer Hasselblad on Apa to Leaf - because when I was shooting with LEaf - the fact thathe battery hangs below the back makes it a real pain in the posterior for ptripod mounting. Regarding pricing - unfortunately I paid a full price for my Hasselblad back - a few months BEFORE their new pricing was announced - after getting a bit miffed for a week or so-I am now over it. I agree that other makers will have to drop their prices in due course - which is good news for everyone in the longer term.
I actually think that you can power the Leaf with a firewire800 power solution
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A lot of people 'spray' misinformation based on no user based knowledge or experience in these 'forums'. When they get corrected - they dont disappear into the ether but usually pop up in some other thread 'espousing BS' and confusing people yet again.
Good point!
These are Mini-Michaels... ignore them.
Note: Michael has still neither "retracted" nor "apologized" for incorrectly stating that the H bodies are made in Japan and not in Sweden (from this post: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....8295&st=60) (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28295&st=60)).
If you're looking for a Hasselblad forum: http://www.hasselbladdigitalforum.com/index.php (http://www.hasselbladdigitalforum.com/index.php)
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François do you know the price of H3DII39 (not MS) body only ?
Hi F
The price of the H3D-body 2600 EUR.
O R
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The Hasselblad new pricing seems great - I think!
Why you may ask?
- Its a lot of money if you already got a digital back? Maybe not!
I.e.
Buy the Hasselblad H3D-II 39 + free 80 mm lens for = 14.995 EUR (40% off!).
You can keep your old digital back, which can be used for back-up purposes or you can sell it off to a colleague. In the old days you needed to ship this back to the back manufacturer.
When paying only 14,995 EUR you do not pay for the upgrade cost as you needed to do before and which you do today with Leaf and Phase One. Moreover, when you buy a new Hasselblad you get a whole new system not an upgraded one. Therefore new system with new warranty.
Conclusion:
Hasselblads new pricing will mean that photographers can actually purchase a new camera for more or less the same amount that they would have previously spent on an upgrade. But still they can the old one.
O. R.
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Not entirely. The current prices are a little less attractive than the upgrade prices were. For people entering the MFDB market this is good news for people wanting to upgrade it is not always as advantageous.
Sure if you want to buy a new one and keep your old back as backup it is good, this is like entering the MFDB market. But if you already have a backup and you just want to get rid of the oldest one because you don't need 3 or more backs it was more lucrative to upgrade.
Now a decent 2nd hand market place needs to be installed, people buying 2nd hand backs need to be sure their backs will receive support (paid naturally) if needed. Otherwise a giant market of expensive bricks will be the result and people will stop buying new backs after they own several because they cannot sell their worthless older equipment.
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If i can choose between spent 14000 euro for upgrade or buy new camera for 15000 euro. Of course i will buy new camera. Old camera I can sell for 4000 euro. For me it;s clear. I think that commercial photographer can buy new camera ones for two years, and it is not like buying a jet - it;s only a tool, like car for a taxi driver.
Freak
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Work hard and be nice to people
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Not entirely. The current prices are a little less attractive than the upgrade prices were. For people entering the MFDB market this is good news for people wanting to upgrade it is not always as advantageous.
Sure if you want to buy a new one and keep your old back as backup it is good, this is like entering the MFDB market. But if you already have a backup and you just want to get rid of the oldest one because you don't need 3 or more backs it was more lucrative to upgrade.
Now a decent 2nd hand market place needs to be installed, people buying 2nd hand backs need to be sure their backs will receive support (paid naturally) if needed. Otherwise a giant market of expensive bricks will be the result and people will stop buying new backs after they own several because they cannot sell their worthless older equipment.
Is it not true and correct me if i am wrong that with the H3 series the back and camera are as one and really can't take that back and put it on another H3 camera since they are tuned to each other at least that is the way i understand this system. In my case i can put my Phase Back on any Mamiya body that is AFD, AFDII or AFD III/Phase One .
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i still don't really get it.....i mean it is great that i could now buy a H339 for 22000 if i wanted to....to me the H331 would make much more sense and there are leaf and phase products available in the same price range now....
there are so many more factors to consider then price alone and after the whole system is priced out the small difference is easily made up by lenses and such....
i personally would never consider buying any H because i have learned to dislike the camera (by using it), so no price break in the world would make me buy it....
i mostly agree that every system can get pretty similar results (in terms of file quality) some have slightly different features (longer exposures, in lens shutters,....) and workflow is a major factor with many people......
i really feel that this is one more of hasselblads pr ideas.....along with the first FF (no need to discuss that anymore, they just shot themselves in the other leg by making that absolutely moronic new format statement), the new lenses (which cover this but not that, that but not this format and might or might not cover the next....oh and never mind about making them right from the start we can fix that later....i even hate when shooters say that..."we can fix that in post, it'll look very different").....the "magic T/S thing (what? for how much? any other back can be mounted on a viewcamera to get much better and FF results, for less money)....so now we are dropping prices by 40% and people will come running.......and judging from the overwhelming response from all the people here they actually do.....
reminds me of the simple fact that shoppers will save 1cent in the aisle to buy the 98cent coke over 99cent pepsi in the 2 liter bottle (although they actually prefer pepsi) and get a 12oz can out of the machine on the way out for 1dollar.....and enjoy their cold coke on the way home feeling they have saved money.....
someone here actually wrote that someone else here is lucky because his clients did not ask for 39mpix files.....now i am not sure who these clients are but i find that statement just idiotic....like someone actually trying to convince themselves that by getting the 39mpix back they will automatically get put into a different category of photographer?
there are a LOT of rich kids out of (expensive) photoschool who already have the 39mpix back, they bought it at full price and they still can't shoot or get jobs....and there are quite a few ad shooters running around with their canons and nikons making more each day shooting then the P65 will cost.....
rant end, i hope everybody will enjoy their new H system, please enlighten us with all your amazing images that you just could not have taken on any other system and especially not on a much cheaper one.....that is not 40% off right now....
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i really feel that this is one more of hasselblads pr ideas.....along with the first FF (no need to discuss that anymore, they just shot themselves in the other leg by making that absolutely moronic new format statement), the new lenses (which cover this but not that, that but not this format and might or might not cover the next....oh and never mind about making them right from the start we can fix that later....i even hate when shooters say that..."we can fix that in post, it'll look very different").....the "magic T/S thing (what? for how much? any other back can be mounted on a viewcamera to get much better and FF results, for less money)....so now we are dropping prices by 40% and people will come running.......and judging from the overwhelming response from all the people here they actually do.....
Got to love such a well thought out and reasoned post.
I'd love to see the comparisons you have made between the Hasselblad Tilt/Shift and a view camera where you got "much better" results.
Nick-T
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For a long time I was a believer and propeller of an idea that the newest digital camera is the only way to go where is fact it takes very little thinking to realize that my 12 months old $30K A75s is worth only $15K or my two years old A75 is worth less than 10K on Ebay, even less for my ex P25, H20 etc.
When I bought my first LightPhase it was a state of an art DB and all pros sweared that it was as good as MF. Today it is worth few hundred dollars.
My point here is not about money however. I look at my portfolio and see lots of images that I shot digitally over the last ten years with cameras ranging from 6MP to 39MP.
If 6MP, 16MP, 25MP was good than what makes it not good now. The new AFiII will be an old technology camera next year. Why would you even shoot portfolio images with it now and not wait indefinately for the next better camera to make the keepers.
Buy what you can afford now and shoot. They are all great.
Andre
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Got to love such a well thought out and reasoned post.
I'd love to see the comparisons you have made between the Hasselblad Tilt/Shift and a view camera where you got "much better" results.
Nick-T
Hi Nick,
But can the Hasselblad Tilt/Shift swing?
Simon
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So true, Andre.
I would even say "Buy what you can afford/need and shoot".
Thierry
Buy what you can afford now and shoot.
Andre
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Thierry,
It struck me few months ago while sitting with my wife one Sunday and looking through our collection of Vogues , V, W, and other fine fashion magazines. The magazines range in age from current to 7 years ago. It was easy to assume that lots of this great add campaigns were shot digitally in times were H20 or H25 was the absolute top of the line back.
Absolutely fine, stunning images.
For those in LL on the budget please remember that used backs function exactly the same as when they were new, There is no moving parts, there is no limit in number of actuation to be taken. Get one and shoot now, make the big money and then upgrade to whatever your heart desire. There is no excuse not to shoot DBMF when A75 with the same sensor as AFi7II sells on eBay under 10K.
Andre
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Andre,
You hit the nail exactly where it should be hit: shoot today the images with the material that does fit your needs. This material was fitting the needs of all some 15 years ago (and I remember here the astonishing result with the 2x2k = 4 MPx Loral sensor), it still does and it still can be found for nearly nothing. Your portfolio proves it well.
Thierry
Thierry,
It struck me few months ago while sitting with my wife one Sunday and looking through our collection of Vogues , V, W, and other fine fashion magazines. The magazines range in age from current to 7 years ago. It was easy to assume that lots of this great add campaigns were shot digitally in times were H20 or H25 was the absolute top of the line back.
Absolutely fine, stunning images.
For those in LL on the budget please remember that used backs function exactly the same as when they were new, There is no moving parts, there is no limit in number of actuation to be taken. Get one and shoot now, make the big money and then upgrade to whatever your heart desire. There is no excuse not to shoot DBMF when A75 with the same sensor as AFi7II sells on eBay under 10K.
Andre
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Thierry,
It struck me few months ago while sitting with my wife one Sunday and looking through our collection of Vogues , V, W, and other fine fashion magazines. The magazines range in age from current to 7 years ago. It was easy to assume that lots of this great add campaigns were shot digitally in times were H20 or H25 was the absolute top of the line back.
Absolutely fine, stunning images.
For those in LL on the budget please remember that used backs function exactly the same as when they were new, There is no moving parts, there is no limit in number of actuation to be taken. Get one and shoot now, make the big money and then upgrade to whatever your heart desire. There is no excuse not to shoot DBMF when A75 with the same sensor as AFi7II sells on eBay under 10K.
Andre
If your looking through 5 to 7 year old W's, Vogues, Elles, etc. your most likely looking at images from film. Three years ago Gilles Bensimon tried digital and went back to film during most of his tenure as creative director of Elle. Unless you are looking at images from Melvin Sokolsky who was shooting digital for Vogue and Wallpaper with a 4mp Canon 1d. Melvin was ground breaking in his use of digital for editorial fahsion.
http://www.sokolsky.com/main.php (http://www.sokolsky.com/main.php)
(look at the Wallpaper spread under fashion).
You might be surprised at the number of high end fashion and editorial images that are still shot with film.
http://www.art-dept.com/artists/roy/ (http://www.art-dept.com/artists/roy/)
There is even a small resurgence to gong back to film when the produciton allows it. A lot of people are digital overwhelmed.
I do agree to use what works and put your money in front of the lens, not the black box behind it.
In the reference to 10,000 dollar a75's I don't see them for that price on e-bay, I see them at twice that price, though we all know they will come down and in todays economy most likely come down quickly.
But speaking of film, if you are not working high volume, or high commerce, film cameras are now the deal of the century and easy to image as the lab does it for you.
And the best part about film cameras is there is no firmware updates or waiting for new models. No waiting for buffer or slow shoot rates. No proprietary imaging sensors that only mate to certain cameras, no proprietary labs and wide angles that are wide.
They are what they are and that is it.
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Is it not true and correct me if i am wrong that with the H3 series the back and camera are as one and really can't take that back and put it on another H3 camera since they are tuned to each other at least that is the way i understand this system. In my case i can put my Phase Back on any Mamiya body that is AFD, AFDII or AFD III/Phase One .
I don't use H3 so I can't tell for sure but I believe this is the case. I use the CF which I can put on all sorts of stuff and if I have focus problems I can shim until perfection (which I had to do with one of my Digiflex bodies but in general this isn't really necessary).
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Apologies for going off topic, but this is driving me nuts!
In My Controls/Email Settings/Board Preferences, I have the first two ticked, but NOT "Enable Email Notification by default..."/.
Yet, I am receiving one email for every! post to this thread.
Also, at the bottom of this reply window it says, "You are currently receiving email notification of replies."
I just want ONE email notifying me of a new reply and no more.
What can I do to stop this?
Thanks.
D.
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- But my 1Ds2 had catastrophic skin tone and was unusable for fashion/portrait.
- The 5DMarkII samples from Canon look a lot like the old 1Ds2. In which case no one with a serious fashion/beauty application should go anywhere near it. Concrete testing is advised before a buy. I repeat, the 1Ds3 is clearly ok.
Edmund
Thats just a false statement. I use one with no issues.
But i shoot RAW. Lets start with a RAW work flow, which allows any number of combinations and permutations. Each to there own here i think.
And the 5DII samples are jpegs - from RAW or jpegs???
Supprising coming from a color management blogger.
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Thats just a false statement. I use one with no issues.
But i shoot RAW. Lets start with a RAW work flow, which allows any number of combinations and permutations. Each to there own here i think.
And the 5DII samples are jpegs - from RAW or jpegs???
Supprising coming from a color management blogger.
100% correct. The 1ds2 had fine skin tones, as long as you light and expose carefully. In fact, I made a satchel full of money shooting fashion and beauty with a 1ds2. I've never understood Edmund's issues. I saw some 5d2 jpegs shgot with the 85 1.8. All 5d2 images are camera jpegs because their is no RAW converter available. In any case, the files I saw were really silky smooth, very similar to the 1ds3. Really nice. Can't wait to get mine.
T
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Guys,
Subject is: Hasselblad new pricing - up to 40% off. It's into Medium Format Digital Backs and Photography. And you write about Canon 5D Mark II.... don;t you think that you write not in the right forum?
If we i will think (virtual) that Canon 5D Mark II give us the same quality like MFDB, sombody can said that why use canon, if my cellphone have camera too.
Freak
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Work hard and be nice to people
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Guys,
Subject is: Hasselblad new pricing - up to 40% off. It's into Medium Format Digital Backs and Photography. And you write about Canon 5D Mark II.... don;t you think that you write not in the right forum?
If we i will think (virtual) that Canon 5D Mark II give us the same quality like MFDB, sombody can said that why use canon, if my cellphone have camera too.
Freak
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Work hard and be nice to people
----------------------------------------
Is it maybe because of the reason Hasselblad are discounting 40%? - I don't think it's the new 5D incarnation specifically, I think it's just the quality of the technologies converging.
I use 35mm and MFDB. I make my living from both. I like both. But they are both simply a means to an end and they are related.
If you believe your cellphone is as good as a Canon maybe you should speak to your optician. (virtual)
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Is it maybe because of the reason Hasselblad are discounting 40%? - I don't think it's the new 5D incarnation specifically, I think it's just the quality of the technologies converging.
I use 35mm and MFDB. I make my living from both. I like both. But they are both simply a means to an end and they are related.
If you believe your cellphone is as good as a Canon maybe you should speak to your optician. (virtual)
It was irony ...
Freak
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Work hard and be nice to people
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- But my 1Ds2 had catastrophic skin tone and was unusable for fashion/portrait.
Edmund
But,you've also had borderline 'catastrophic' failures with your M8 and P45 in recent years.
Perhaps, the problem lies not so much with the equipment but, rather, bad karma.
Mark
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You hit the nail exactly where it should be hit: shoot today the images with the material that does fit your needs. This material was fitting the needs of all some 15 years ago (and I remember here the astonishing result with the 2x2k = 4 MPx Loral sensor), it still does and it still can be found for nearly nothing. Your portfolio proves it well.
I don't intend to beat a dead horse, and I am fully aware that this forum is about medium fomat photography, but if those 5 years old backs are enough for high quality production work, isn't the real question whether current top of the range DSLR (including a D3 for that matter) would not be good enough also?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Perhaps, the problem lies not so much with the equipment but, rather, bad karma.
Mark
Well, I shot the 1Ds2 side by side several times with the old 1Ds. The clients picked the 1Ds files every time. Must be bad karma.
I prefer to go with the clients, they're female so they know good fashion color when they see it.
BTW, I did try the 1Ds3 and was very impressed with the file quality. However the focus of both cameras I tested was less than precise.
Edmund
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Guys,
Subject is: Hasselblad new pricing - up to 40% off. It's into Medium Format Digital Backs and Photography. And you write about Canon 5D Mark II.... don;t you think that you write not in the right forum?
If we i will think (virtual) that Canon 5D Mark II give us the same quality like MFDB, sombody can said that why use canon, if my cellphone have camera too.
Freak
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Work hard and be nice to people
----------------------------------------
the reason the canons keep coming up in this MF forum is simply that the jobs that used to require MF cameras are now easily handled by the canons......
IMO a file from a P21 is better then a file from a DSIII (both at 100asa) but without the direct comparison this difference is not so obvious and in reality there is nothing lacking from the canon file.....
just like a 4x5 piece of film will be an improvement over something shot with MF film....does not make the MF film bad at all......
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Well, I shot the 1Ds2 side by side several times with the old 1Ds. The clients picked the 1Ds files every time. Must be bad karma.
I prefer to go with the clients, they're female so they know good fashion color when they see it.
BTW, I did try the 1Ds3 and was very impressed with the file quality. However the focus of both cameras I tested was less than precise.
Edmund
i agree with edmund....the 1dsII made me give up DSLR for a while....i did not even give the dsIII a chance because of that....i really think the dsIII is what the dsII should have been....i never liked the files from the dsII....i mean they are great but everything about them was just a little too much below the DMF backs in terms of file quality....skintones, (tones in general) gradations, highlights....
i really think the dsIII fixed all this.....
i am not sure why any of these problems wold come up again with the 5D...just does not make any sense to me....i am pretty sure i will get one.....my only concern is that the files will be a little too much like the nikonD3, which is great but seems to be optimized for pure high asa shooting.....i like a clean 1200asa just like the next guy but i really need a nice 100asa.......
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i agree with edmund....the 1dsII made me give up DSLR for a while....i did not even give the dsIII a chance because of that....i really think the dsIII is what the dsII should have been....i never liked the files from the dsII....i mean they are great but everything about them was just a little too much below the DMF backs in terms of file quality....skintones, (tones in general) gradations, highlights....
i really think the dsIII fixed all this.....
i am not sure why any of these problems wold come up again with the 5D...just does not make any sense to me....i am pretty sure i will get one.....my only concern is that the files will be a little too much like the nikonD3, which is great but seems to be optimized for pure high asa shooting.....i like a clean 1200asa just like the next guy but i really need a nice 100asa.......
Sorry but I can't resist the temptation to continue our foray into the DSLR off-subject discussion. I have been planning on selling my 1Ds Mk1 to clear space in my camera case for the 5D Mk2. I never used the 1Ds Mk2 or 3. It seems a lot of shooters really liked the 1Ds Mk1. Is this accurate and why like it over the Mk2 or 3? Frankly I don't shoot it a lot as I have my Phase One back I use all the time commercially. I also have some fashion spreads I shot with the original 20D that look wonderful. By the way, I just took my 4x5 camera out of the case after 3 years and shot some Velvia. That felt great! Still love looking through that big tranny!!!