Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: Snook on September 16, 2008, 09:32:01 am
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Just wondering after all this medium format talk and prices how many are being affected by the "new" depression that is coming...
If the economy keeps dropping I am wondering how many people are going to be buying so many new toys this year....
I for one have already been affected by the on sight of economic depression.
About Half of my clients have decided NOT to do catalogues and advertising budgets have been raped down to nothing....
Of my other 50% Client base, they have decided to cut their productions in Half!!
I am starting to hear from many other talent in the business calling around to see if anybody is working like before.
This may not be for this forum but after reading through the post of new equipment and prices etc...
I was really wondering how much investment will be going into these new tools if we will be going through an economic crisis.
Is anybody else out there starting to feel the affects yet.
Sorry Michael if this is not for this forum but in some way it does have to do with medium format photography.
Atleast for US who Live by our trade!!!
What do you guys think and what is the plan for the future???
Thanks
Snook
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every couple days I got to the local pawn shop and ask "did anyone need meth more than a camera?"
Crew, I admit. But I have a decent day job that isn't strictly photo related and I have a contract radio engineer job on top of that that isn't going anywhere. If I were laid off, I could survive for about 2 years.
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with that said, I would like to add that my actual sales are down a lot. a few magazines/newspapers cut most of their live photos. They have been all using the same photo so you flip through 10 magazines and see the same exact poses. lame. I would say that I "lost" 3 steady magazines/newspapers and gained only 1 new one.
I've been buying my equipment and reporting a loss for the past 3 years so this year (under US tax law), I was suppose to break even. I guess I have to swallow the high cost of my gas. Since I have a fat day job, I can do this. If I didn't have a fat day job, I would be screwed.
One thing about economies like this. the people in the best positions will win out cause they have the capital to invest in a down market. They can upgrade technology at a song and then when the economy comes back they are set. If I were a big player in europe, I would have bought gear from the US already and saved 33%. Now Europe is feeling the pinch so it's probably too late for that.
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with that said, I would like to add that my actual sales are down a lot. a few magazines/newspapers cut most of their live photos. They have been all using the same photo so you flip through 10 magazines and see the same exact poses. lame. I would say that I "lost" 3 steady magazines/newspapers and gained only 1 new one.
I've been buying my equipment and reporting a loss for the past 3 years so this year (under US tax law), I was suppose to break even. I guess I have to swallow the high cost of my gas. Since I have a fat day job, I can do this. If I didn't have a fat day job, I would be screwed.
One thing about economies like this. the people in the best positions will win out cause they have the capital to invest in a down market. They can upgrade technology at a song and then when the economy comes back they are set. If I were a big player in europe, I would have bought gear from the US already and saved 33%. Now Europe is feeling the pinch so it's probably too late for that.
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We are ALL going to be affected...
I was just wondering if anybody else has started to notice it in other markets.. Like US and Europe?
Thanks for the comments
Snook
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We are ALL going to be affected...
I was just wondering if anybody else has started to notice it in other markets.. Like US and Europe?
Thanks for the comments
Snook
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It all comes in cycles and the news media always reports the end of the world scenario.
We all knew this was coming, after all 1,000 sq. ft. houses shouldn't sell for 2 million dollars anywhere so anyone that loaned on them was eventually going to take a fall.
The only thing to do in these times is to invest, work the best deals you can and keep working.
In fact this is always the best time to invest in your business because most people contract.
I've found that usually when the world looks left, if you just turn your head to the right you will find opportunity.
JR
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Actually, I think this is an excellent place to consider the economic impact - my hats off to you for bring it up.
I am one of the many who shoot landscape, am not a pro with a paying client base, and lack the sense to not invest in MFD.
I am also someone who after he retired in 1994 decided to study the workings of the stock market and the world economy. Well, I traded full time for 4 years, Day Traded. I did well, worst year was 123%ROExposure. I pulled completely out of the market three weeks before the last "pull back" in 2000 - saw it coming and did not want to play it short.
In short, I know enough to be dangerous about the stock market and the economy.
Recently I updated my analysis of the USA economic picture - scared the daylights out of me.
To review just a few of the highlights, NEVER before have we had:
1. National Debt level that is beyond repair, and growing with no capacity to control it.
2. Personal debt levels at record highs.
3. Mortgage loans outstanding with folks that should never have been given a loan in the first place (but a lot of mortgage brokers made a lot of money writing crap!)
4. I find the rouge of "FDIC insured" to be a joke. They had 40 billion sitting behind them - one bank in CA fails and they loose 25% of their reserves. When we look at the figures we see that 2% of the US banks are in serious risk of failure (that's 2% of 9,000 banks) who in their right mind can think that the FDIC can cover that risk. Feds will have to print money and that will drive inflation, and possible Hyper Inflation.
5. A society that has warped into Self Indulgence and Instant Gratification, regardless of the consequences.
I could add substantially to this list, but you should be getting the "picture".
In short, I sold my H2/P45+ about 6 weeks ago. Why, because one could see what has happened this week coming.
Will I buy back in to the MFD gear with it's high cost of entry and rapid rate of obselence/depreciation - to be decided. If I do,it will probably be by seeking out dealer demo gear or gear from a pro photographer who needs to pay his bills.
In short, I would encourage all pro photographers to keep their reserves and be demanding that what you part with will actually increase your balance sheet in forms other than debt. We have not seen the worst of it, and it will get worse IMHO.
PS: No, I'm not saying it is the "end of the world" as we know it, just a time to be very conservative with our expenditures, be we Pro or obsessed photographers.
PPS: If you think this past week was financially challenging, wait till the ship hits the sand on Credit Card debt failures! At least with the mortgage crisis, there is collateral to grab!
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I was not saying it is the end of the world but I really think we are coming upon tough times and people should be aware and it is interesting times for many.
I would rather be in my shoes than some one at Lehman Bros for example.
I have always liked being independent... that is for sure.
I have been living on photography and productions for many years now.
But...
I have seen a major change starting to come on specially in my market but also from my outside clients... mainly US and some Italian .
They are all starting to lean torwards cut backs and less spending on productions and catalogues.
I also thought it might be good conversation to see how and where we are being affected by the economy.
Like I have mentioned already, with my clients there is no extra pay or working it into my budget to cover expenses like many do. They want the the "Best" "Cheapest" guy for the job. We are not shooting trend setting stuff like the few "Real" shooters and fashion statement making photographers like Mario/Bruce/Steven/ etc....
We are and I am speaking for myself but for many others for sure, always having to try and copy these guys for our clients and art directors layouts but that might be another thread..:+}
In any case I was trying to state that I cannot put 50,000$ cameras and backs that lose their value so quickly with out eating the cost completely on my own.
Which in the current market is not going to happen as it has dropped off a lot.
And for cameras like the 1DsMIII that can be had for 7500.00 Anywhere like James mentioned .
Maybe getting off the topic but I guess it all depends on your market.
I would like to hear the opinions of others as this is a "worldly"
Forum...
Thanks for the comments so far.
Snook
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In short, I would encourage all pro photographers to keep their reserves and be demanding that what you part with will actually increase your balance sheet in forms other than debt. We have not seen the worst of it, and it will get worse IMHO.
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Agreed. The current situation will only continue its downward spiral. It seems all the big boys are counting on fed bailouts to save their butts from their own bad decisions. My photo business is down, but then it always is at this time of year. In Oct. I have two shows. How I do will tell me if it's time to be a bear and go into hibernation.
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Several of my magazine clients are feeling their clients are allocating less funds for advertising, advertorials, etc.. This meant I worked less for them this year. So, yes on that end I am noticing a downturn.
OTOH, I have dragged in a boatload of other clients that pay better than magazines. Not to be bragging but I have so much work at this moment I am almost begging for less.
I just keep on taking it because you never know when the well is starting to dry but at this moment I have been on almost 5 days shooting per week for the last 4 months. I have to process everything during the evenings & night otherwise I fall behind too much.
At this moment the dreadfullness has not come over here but it might and probably will. I plan on not to be affected by it too much. We will see if I succeed. I have kept my monthly costs low, done investments only without financing so even if I do get into a difficult period I can sing it out.
Maybe I even get a bit more time to do personal stuff...
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What goes up must come down its just the nature of the beast and this long overdue IMO. It either happens in short less radical cycles or goes like the last run of 10+ years of growth and then a nice big belly flop. Its not to be feared or admired its just something that any relatively sane individual should be prepared for. Life is a lot like a Credit card... Pay now... or pay later... WITH interest of course and we all know how ridiculous credit card interest is. Too many have lived beyond their means and this is the payback. A simple way I like to look at things is an old granny tale;
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, be happy with what you get.
Now as for my opinion on how to avoid a "disaster"? SPEND some money on things you want and not just what you need. Buy a new car perhaps? ( made where you live is the smart money ) or buy some stuff from some of your clients companies? Or another domestic product from your Countries economy? etc etc. Its really that simple the savers of the world should be spending now while prices are low and the debt ridden unfortunates are taking a bath until they get back on their feet then the prices climb and the savers start earning more income and then start saving again.
So the cycle goes. Plus not to tangent off... War aint cheap....
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Architectural photography, Southwestern US.......The slump in the housing market is hurting residential architecture magazines-assignments are down and there is some talk of renegotiating fees. In larger commercial architecture photo projects for architects the market is solid for now but because these projects take so long to get out of the ground there is a lag time in terms of an economic slowdown. It will probably be hit that hard next year. In general I would say that the high end big photo projects have been fine, but the smaller bread and butter projects that I fill in the gaps with have largely disappeared. Time to hunker down, reduce overhead and do all those projects on my house that I have been putting off for years.
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Architectural photography, Southwestern US.......The slump in the housing market is hurting residential architecture magazines-assignments are down and there is some talk of renegotiating fees. In larger commercial architecture photo projects for architects the market is solid for now but because these projects take so long to get out of the ground there is a lag time in terms of an economic slowdown. It will probably be hit that hard next year. In general I would say that the high end big photo projects have been fine, but the smaller bread and butter projects that I fill in the gaps with have largely disappeared. Time to hunker down, reduce overhead and do all those projects on my house that I have been putting off for years.
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When i was doing architectural shooting in the real estate market in Australia and there was an economic downturn, I actually saw my income going up as people had to be more competative to sell their house and wanted to use better photography to do so. In a economic downturn there are always sectors of the market that can do better, it just depend how you package yourself.
Now working in the far East it seems each year is better then the previous, but also wonder when this is going to last. For now I have so much work that i am eagerly looking out for a holiday.
The Hotel business has been very good as the projects have been on the table for years and are not going to be stopped because wall street lost 5% The amount of smaller clients in my local area is getting smaller but that is maybe because I have steadily put up my prices over the last couple of years and maybe because I am less available because of international work.
I have seen about 3-4 economic downturns in the last 30 years and always survived really well
just because i think I was open to opportunities and flexible enough to jump into them.
I think rigidity in this time is not an attribute that will help.
m*
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My main customers, the RV and Marine business here in the US is in shambles and as a result so is my workload. Just last year my 10,000 sq. ft. building felt too small, this year it looked like an open aircraft hanger. So as of this week the studio and the massive overhead is gone, replaced by cases of equipmnet and location only shooting. Maybe a blessing, who knows, but I'm going to keep a much larger percentage of the gross...
Craig v3.0
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The fine art market is suffering in all mediums.
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Well, luckily the wedding market never slumps. I'm actually picking back up after a slow summer season.
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Well...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2966049/Da...-first-day.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2966049/Damien-Hirst-sale-breaks-art-auction-record-raking-in-70.5-million-in-its-first-day.html)
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The Hirst auction will mark the end of a rather profligate era of big money art.
Personally, the only client I had, a bank, and the type of work that I was shooting (buildings, related to mortgage securitization, has completely dried up, gone, nada.
Since I don't really give a flick about commercial photography in general it is ok, I had saved some money and now can be full time in my fine art career. But I am no longer rolling in the dough, am no longer part of the great money game. It's not like I haven't done most types of photo work, from being in a lab in grad school, to travel, advertising, architecture, portraiture....
So it goes. As photographers we learn to keep on truckin and pick up new styles, clients, specialties, careers - what have you- and let the past slip away.
Make no mistake, this economy is going to change things going forward. Interesting times may yet appear!
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To stay competitive, a lot of flexibility on pricing is needed. Times are really tought! I am adjusting by staying analog and buying old equipment like Mamiya RB 67, Fuji GX 680 and Linhof LF. Without a 2nd job, I would be half starving.
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When I read the news I see that every man woman and child in the US is exepcted to contribute $2000 to "saving" the financial institutions. This seems to indicate that the guys doing the "contributing" will be broke, but the guys doing the funelling (where ?) are going to be very rich indeed.
So, those of you with commercial photo practices, eg. ready to wear fashion or real estate photos, yes I guess you'll go broke. After all, the man or woman in the street has to lay out those $2K.
High fashion and portraiture, art reproduction should still tick along. i think that vanity portraits of the trophy wives and penthouse appartments and vacation homes of the guys who "channel" the "saving of the economy" money should still be a possibility. Yacht photography as well.
This week's Paris papers are full of elogious articles about American philantropists who are financing museums, the Opera and the "arts" in general. No money problems there. It's pretty obvious that as far as these guys are concerned Wall Street has delivered exactly as it was supposed to.
Edmund
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Short answer - YES
Long answer - http://www.shadowstats.com/article/292 (http://www.shadowstats.com/article/292)
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When I read the news I see that every man woman and child in the US is exepcted to contribute $2000 to "saving" the financial institutions. This seems to indicate that the guys doing the "contributing" will be broke, but the guys doing the funelling (where ?) are going to be very rich indeed.
So, those of you with commercial photo practices, eg. ready to wear fashion or real estate photos, yes I guess you'll go broke. After all, the man or woman in the street has to lay out those $2K.
High fashion and portraiture, art reproduction should still tick along. i think that vanity portraits of the trophy wives and penthouse appartments and vacation homes of the guys who "channel" the "saving of the economy" money should still be a possibility. Yacht photography as well.
This week's Paris papers are full of elogious articles about American philantropists who are financing museums, the Opera and the "arts" in general. No money problems there. It's pretty obvious that as far as these guys are concerned Wall Street has delivered exactly as it was supposed to.
Not to worry. The USA is a democracy until our financial institutions collapse. Then we turn socialist. Ironically, Bin Laden may have stated it correctly after 9-11, when he said, "I do not need a military victory in the USA. I only need to wait for its economic collapse." The morally corrupt Republican Party has delivered on that prophecy with Iraq and now our financial institutions. Your $2K figure is a little light. Try upwards of $3,200 per man, woman, and child.
On a happier note, I've still squirreled away the cash needed for an AFi II. If my bank doesn't go under before I get there.
David
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Watched a top Princeton economist on the box the other evening saying: "This is the ultimate irony of the Bush presidency. In effect they're saying, "You're on your own........unless you owe a hundred billion dollars." "
OK, sad really.
D.
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That is a very old saying which goes something like this:
If you owe a 100K you have a problem
If you owe a a million the bank has a problem
If you owe a billion the government has a problem
This was from the 80's when I heard it first so amounts are probably inflated by now. I was shocked to see what is happening last week in the US. Even more so by the current proposed rescue plan, I feel a lot more extra problems coming from this.
Also prohibiting of short selling is questionable. I am not sure whether 'naked short selling' has been prohibited which is strange because that already was illegal. Also the fact that some companies are protected and others not (799 currently on that list compared to only a few the first time short selling was prohibited for a brief period of time). I would be very upset when I was stakeholder in a company that was not on that list, for one thing.
The UK and France are following and doing the same thing. I wonder how this can comply with the rules that prohibit government support to companies in Europe (not sure whether these things are in place in the US).
Yup, strange things are happening lately...
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Not to worry. The USA is a democracy until our financial institutions collapse. Then we turn socialist. Ironically, Bin Laden may have stated it correctly after 9-11, when he said, "I do not need a military victory in the USA. I only need to wait for its economic collapse." The morally corrupt Republican Party has delivered on that prophecy with Iraq and now our financial institutions. Your $2K figure is a little light. Try upwards of $3,200 per man, woman, and child.
On a happier note, I've still squirreled away the cash needed for an AFi II. If my bank doesn't go under before I get there.
David
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doom and gloom stuff. we saw it with the the first energy crisis, the vietnam war, the taking of hostages in iran, the savings and loan crisis, the cold war, the cuban missle crisis, nafta, 9-11, Iraq and now the melting of wall street.
companies go under, tax rates change, the economy overheats and then corrects. during every one of these end of the world scenarios after 12 months to 2 years the american economy righted itself and kept on going.
of course the political parties are playing it up big, trying to blame the other guy though remember we are in a year of regime change so all of the parties and news media is going to put out the most headline grabbing spin possible.
it is never as bad as they say, never as good as they promise.
by the way. Barney Franks a democrat is the Chair of the House Financial Services Committee
from wiki;
As Chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, Frank "sits at the center of power".[27] Thomas Mann, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, was quoted as saying, "He is one of the giants of Congress, a real legislator," in his new role.[27]
In 2003, Frank rejected Bush administration and Congressional Republican efforts for the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis.[28] Under the plan a new agency would have been created within the Treasury Department to assume supervision of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored companies that are the two largest players in the mortgage lending industry.[29] "These two entities, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, are not facing any kind of financial crisis," Frank said. He added, "The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.
also don't just blame america cause europe and asia was buyng this dept as fast as they could and spain, france, england jacked thier housing prices just like the u.s..
now they all have to blame somebody so they blame america.
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Not to worry. The USA is a democracy until our financial institutions collapse. Then we turn socialist. Ironically, Bin Laden may have stated it correctly after 9-11, when he said, "I do not need a military victory in the USA. I only need to wait for its economic collapse." The morally corrupt Republican Party has delivered on that prophecy with Iraq and now our financial institutions. Your $2K figure is a little light. Try upwards of $3,200 per man, woman, and child.
On a happier note, I've still squirreled away the cash needed for an AFi II. If my bank doesn't go under before I get there.
David
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I'll take issue with the US problems being the domain of the...how did you put it..."The morally corrupt Republican Party ". Thats quite a short sighted statement and way short on a historic basis to back it up.
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doom and gloom stuff. we saw it with the the first energy crisis, the vietnam war, the taking of hostages in iran, the savings and loan crisis, the cold war, the cuban missle crisis, nafta, 9-11, Iraq and now the melting of wall street.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=223063\")
Yep, and for the last 8 years Bushy has propogated that and had you guys go out and "Spend, Consume"
A few historical points to note
1929-39 great depression - lead to WWII
The vietnam war and the 1970s Iranian revolution caused the energy crisis
The saving and loan crisis is a drop in the bucket compared to this
The cold war - dude, its still here, but this time you can't do nothing about it
[a href=\"http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7602530.stm]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7602530.stm[/url]
The cuban missile crisis - as above
Nafta - problem yes
9-11 does not equal iraq war
Wall street - US Government over last 20yrs
The upshot - everyone will suffer, not just Americans
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US banks misused the trust of fellow (foreign) banks by selling them packages with rotten mortgages in them without informing them. There was no way these buying banks could find out how well funded the American mortgages were. Banks should be able to trust each other. This trust is now broken (by US banks) and that is the main cause of the crisis. The value of the dollar completely depends on trust too, since they dropped the gold standard. Nobody trusts the US dollar anymore, so it goes down the drain. Many US monetary policies would be considered illegal in Europe. I have no problem blaming the thieves for having stolen the goods. Why have the rest of the world pay for it?
Let's face the facts: all those houses that were built in America with all those unfunded mortgages; someone paid for the materials that they were made of. Someone made money with building them. Actual resources were used although the money that paid for the use of these resources was nothing more than printed paper, coming from the US government. The same resources could have been used so much better elsewhere in the world. Especially now that nobody really wants to pay for them. People in China, India and Pakistan are homeless due to earthquakes. And in the US all those beautiful houses are empty. We are all living in one world, but Planet USA seems to think it's in a different galaxy.
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Ah yes, lets just all blame America... Sheesh. The worldwide investors who made the purchases were quite savvy, and smart enough to understand as Reagan said..trust, but VERIFY!. If they failed in their due diligence who"s fault is that? They were greedy and they got burnt. But thats the way business works, you win some and you lose some. Even our business works that way.
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They were greedy and they got burnt. But thats the way business works, you win some and you lose some. Even our business works that way.
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Ah yes, the good old sink or swim attitude of the american free market economy and democracy hey..
Well, if your law makers hadn't made it so tempting to gamble so much money that didn't actually exist, over valuate the stock prices of these institutions, with all the deregulation over the last 8 years, some protection might have saved a bit of the nightmare to maybe just a bad dream.
Moreover, there were a bunch of people who should never have qualified for credit the way your regulators allowed them to have it. They are not to blame. One day they could not afford the American Dream and the next they were told they could. And, who were they told by - your government, by the relaxing and deregulation of the mortgage industry.
Now, whether you like it or not, your government has almost total control of your finance, mortgage, and insurance industries and has just propped up your money market (you know - to avoid the run on the banks)....well, to me thats sounds like a State Monopoly or for lack of a better term Socialism!
And as for America bashing. Well, you guys need to learn to take as good as you seem to want to give to the rest of the world....cause now the rest of the world is stuck in this mess you caused.
Interesting hey!
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The probem can be felt everywhere and it probably is just starting. I got out of debt, which my common sense tells me to do if ample work dwindles, and I restrained myself of doing huge investments in high end gear. At least for the time being. If I need it, I rent it. Let somebody else have the financial burden of the investment. If for any reason I have to lower my prices just to keep working, it will be far easier this way.
Though I agree with James Russell, it is good to be "light" business wise. To take opportunities when they arise it is important to have low overheads and have space to manouver.
When people lose faith in a currency it is probably the worst and terminal scenario for it. I got rid of all my US dollars. They lose value too fast. I guess if everybody outside of the US gets rid of them, they will all eventually fly back into the US and become worthless little green papers.
Interesting times.
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When people lose faith in a currency it is probably the worst and terminal scenario for it. I got rid of all my US dollars. They lose value too fast. I guess if everybody outside of the US gets rid of them, they will all eventually fly back into the US and become worthless little green papers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223138\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Please send those US dollars back. I still cringe thinking about buying an AFi with Euros or Pounds. Nice website by the way.
David
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Don't worry about the hicup in the economy guys, Sarah Palin's all over it. No, really, she can see a Bank of America branch from her house, so it's all going to be A-ok.
As for me, I'm just glad to be in a 100% recession-proof business, so I can keep paying my modest little mortgage while waiting for good deals on MF backs :-)
- N.
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Ah yes, the good old sink or swim attitude of the american free market economy and democracy hey..
Well, if your law makers hadn't made it so tempting to gamble so much money that didn't actually exist, over valuate the stock prices of these institutions, with all the deregulation over the last 8 years, some protection might have saved a bit of the nightmare to maybe just a bad dream.
Moreover, there were a bunch of people who should never have qualified for credit the way your regulators allowed them to have it. They are not to blame. One day they could not afford the American Dream and the next they were told they could. And, who were they told by - your government, by the relaxing and deregulation of the mortgage industry.
Now, whether you like it or not, your government has almost total control of your finance, mortgage, and insurance industries and has just propped up your money market (you know - to avoid the run on the banks)....well, to me thats sounds like a State Monopoly or for lack of a better term Socialism!
And as for America bashing. Well, you guys need to learn to take as good as you seem to want to give to the rest of the world....cause now the rest of the world is stuck in this mess you caused.
Interesting hey!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223135\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is really all beyond your ken. Please try angain next time.
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This is really all beyond your ken. Please try angain next time.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223152\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Lost ya!
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Lost ya!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223155\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Oh yes...lost...I'd say.
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Oh yes...lost...I'd say.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=223157\")
Lets do some reading together...
[a href=\"http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122202739111460721.html]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122202739111460721.html[/url]
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/leading-t...kyb.html?page=1 (http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/leading-the-world-leader-20080921-4kyb.html?page=1)
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Oi Oi Oi!
Thanks.
Ah yes, the good old sink or swim attitude of the american free market economy and democracy hey..
Well, if your law makers hadn't made it so tempting to gamble so much money that didn't actually exist, over valuate the stock prices of these institutions, with all the deregulation over the last 8 years, some protection might have saved a bit of the nightmare to maybe just a bad dream.
Moreover, there were a bunch of people who should never have qualified for credit the way your regulators allowed them to have it. They are not to blame. One day they could not afford the American Dream and the next they were told they could. And, who were they told by - your government, by the relaxing and deregulation of the mortgage industry.
Now, whether you like it or not, your government has almost total control of your finance, mortgage, and insurance industries and has just propped up your money market (you know - to avoid the run on the banks)....well, to me thats sounds like a State Monopoly or for lack of a better term Socialism!
And as for America bashing. Well, you guys need to learn to take as good as you seem to want to give to the rest of the world....cause now the rest of the world is stuck in this mess you caused.
Interesting hey!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223135\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Not to frighten the horses unnecessarily. But read this and realise that what is happening puts many of our petty quibbles into perspective.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/20/washingt...gin&oref=slogin (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/20/washington/19cnd-cong.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin)
'It was a room full of people who rarely hold their tongues. But as the Fed chairman, Ben S. Bernanke, laid out the potentially devastating ramifications of the financial crisis before congressional leaders on Thursday night, there was a stunned silence at first.
Mr. Bernanke and Treasury Secretary Henry M. Paulson Jr. had made an urgent and unusual evening visit to Capitol Hill, and they were gathered around a conference table in the offices of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.
“When you listened to him describe it you gulped," said Senator Charles E. Schumer, Democrat of New York.
As Senator Christopher J. Dodd, Democrat of Connecticut and chairman of the Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee, put it Friday morning on the ABC program “Good Morning America,” the congressional leaders were told “that we’re literally maybe days away from a complete meltdown of our financial system, with all the implications here at home and globally.”
Mr. Schumer added, “History was sort of hanging over it, like this was a moment.”'
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Judging from the way folks are falling over themselves to order the new 5D Mk2, D700, 50D-etc and string of LX3, G10, X-whatever point 'n shoots you could be forgiven for asking "crisis, what crisis?".
I'd love to know what the back order status is at a business like B&H ? . . .
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Inflation 1923-24: A woman in Germany feeds her tiled stove with money. The money was worth less than firewood.
For photo of this, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_as_an_investment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_as_an_investment)
Need one say more?
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Lets do some reading together...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122202739111460721.html (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122202739111460721.html)
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/leading-t...kyb.html?page=1 (http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/leading-the-world-leader-20080921-4kyb.html?page=1)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=223164\")
Yes, lets.. you are circling down the drain...
[a href=\"http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/09/22/ccambrose122.xml]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm...cambrose122.xml[/url]
Please get back to us when you are up to speed.
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Yes, lets.. you are circling down the drain...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm...cambrose122.xml (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/09/22/ccambrose122.xml)
Please get back to us when you are up to speed.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223224\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's a very dangerous game to believe what you read in the papers. Especially in the 'Daily Torygraph'.
Ol' GW has left a fine legacy for us all to sort out.....
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It's a very dangerous game to believe what you read in the papers. Especially in the 'Daily Torygraph'.
Ol' GW has left a fine legacy for us all to sort out.....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223260\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes it is a very dangerous game, and that was the poin tof my poist. I've been following this quite cloesly for the last two years, and I'm not going to be fooled by folks doing some quick web research in a vain attempt to score some points.
If you or anyone want to believe this is the handiwork of GWB, fine, but if you do it is at your peril, because that is really a short sighted and biased position and not supported by the facts.
We can argue this until the cows come home but I don't think any positions will be changed.
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Yes it is a very dangerous game, and that was the poin tof my poist. I've been following this quite cloesly for the last two years, and I'm not going to be fooled by folks doing some quick web research in a vain attempt to score some points.
If you or anyone want to believe this is the handiwork of GWB, fine, but if you do it is at your peril, because that is really a short sighted and biased position and not supported by the facts.
We can argue this until the cows come home but I don't think any positions will be changed.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223312\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not arguing with anybody. It's just I don't believe what I read in most newspapers.
When the ship goes down it's always the Captain who gets the blame. After all he's the one in charge, or should be anyway.
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If you take 11.3 trillion and divide by the current total pop. of the USA the debt per man, woman, child is just over $36,000 dollars.
Now that is not a realistic number as it should be divided by the number of TAXPAYERS!!
For tax year 2005, 134,372,678 individual tax returns were filed. Of those filed, 99,880,223 actually had a tax liability and actually paid taxes.
Thus, the debt load per taxpayer who is actually paying taxes is:
$113,135,510.00 per tax payer!
Now, and we must plug in somewheret the cost of the "credit card crisis" that has not been dealt with yet.
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all i could say is that all my equipment "dreams" will be put on hold. i will only purchase what i absolutely need. i don't care if another higher resolution digital back comes to market. i will make the best with the equipment i have. we are headed for difficult times. if you think otherwise, you're in denial.
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I was telling a congresswoman yesterday "If this turns out to be a disaster, at least we can be satisfied that it's our people running it." And Americans love their homeboy GWB. But seriously, the big picture isn't that complicated. We just had an overdue adjustment of $700 bn that's been carried on the books too long. The first jolt in the quake is usually the biggest - now just make sure you're not sitting in a liquefaction zone, so to speak.
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http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=new...id=aSKSoiNbnQY0 (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aSKSoiNbnQY0)
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The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
There's only one thing to do.... diversify and keep on working. Just keep on working. Hustle harder, fight for those clients, scale back "entertainment" like nights out at the bar (totally pointless really - it makes me sick to think how often I used to go out and run up a $150 tab - I'm no rockstar!), cook meals at home, and keep on working.
I'm as concerned as anybody, so I'm learning to make do with what I have, and learning to be as frugal as possible.
I'm one of the lucky ones.... cheap rent, no overhead, and no debt (other than my student loans at $200/month). I can honestly get by on $1200/month.
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"(Kevin Hassett, director of economic-policy studies at the American Enterprise Institute, is a Bloomberg News columnist. He is an adviser to Republican Senator John McCain of Arizona in the 2008 presidential election. The opinions expressed are his own.)"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223455\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
self deleted
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"Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out."
A line of the character Tiberius Claudius Drusus Nero Germanicus, in "I Claudius", a 1976 BBC Television adaptation of Robert Graves's "I, Claudius" and "Claudius the God."
Context:
“I have decided Nero should follow me so that one day the empire will revert back to the Republic, that is to some form of representative government. I have been too good an emperor, too fair and too honest. I will give Rome Nero and when he is done with Rome, Rome will be done with emperors altogether. It will be bad,
exceedingly bad…worse even than Caligula but they have to have the whole
terrible truth about just how bad it can be before they come to their senses. Let
all of the poisons that lurk in the mud, hatch out.”
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The lawmakers are about to grant generous new powers to the executive branch. Do we see a pattern here?
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Yes it is a very dangerous game, and that was the poin tof my poist. I've been following this quite cloesly for the last two years, and I'm not going to be fooled by folks doing some quick web research in a vain attempt to score some points.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223312\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This has nothing to score points fool.
Your link to "America coming to save the day" is actually still not in fact ...in place.
So, do your own research mate.
Currently your govt is debating the crisis measures as outlined by Hank Paulson. What seems to have everyone spooked is that the bill does not allow any oversight as too where he is going to spend the money. And, yes, he will be the one spending it....on the worst financial assets one could ever buy.
Here is a quant summary of what your govt is trying to do...
"Their policies manifested as a radical extension of government control over the economy without wholesale expropriation of the means of production"
now to more broadly define it....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
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There's a lot of blame for this financial crisis being directed at government policies and the lax financial regulations which allowed billions of dollars to be loaned to people who, in retrospect, were clearly not in a position to repay such loans.
The question has to be asked, 'Why does there appear to be so many Americans who seem to be so incapable of managing their own financial affairs?'.
I certainly don't need a financial institution to tell me whether or not I'm likely to be capable of repaying a loan. I can work it out for myself.
If you are going to criticise the rich executives and financial institutions for being greedy, you should also criticise those individuals who took out 100% loans on property without sufficient collateral and perhaps with little hope by all reasonable standards of ever repaying such loans for whatever reason.
If we do go into a deep depression on the scale of the 1929 crash, photographers should be in a better position than most. You don't need money to buy film. It doesn't cost you anything to press the shutter and take the shot, except for the small cost of electricity to run the computer during processing of the image.
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This has nothing to score points fool.
Your link to "America coming to save the day" is actually still not in fact ...in place.
So, do your own research mate.
Currently your govt is debating the crisis measures as outlined by Hank Paulson. What seems to have everyone spooked is that the bill does not allow any oversight as too where he is going to spend the money. And, yes, he will be the one spending it....on the worst financial assets one could ever buy.
Here is a quant summary of what your govt is trying to do...
"Their policies manifested as a radical extension of government control over the economy without wholesale expropriation of the means of production"
now to more broadly define it....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223778\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It was ALL about scoring points on your part "mate". That and being a US basher. I've no problem with that, I'm a big boy.
My research in the matter is just fine, in fact I'm living it. You on the other hand...well lets just leave it here....fool
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This thread is interesting, so I'll let it run. But please. no more personal insults!
I have also moved it to the Coffee Corner, where it belongs.
Michael
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Isn'it ironic that while the crisis is in fact mostly the result of people being unable to control their purchasing desires, the outcome most of us hope for is a renewed confidence in the economy that will... enable people to purchase things they still cannot afford...
Cheers,
Bernard
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The point of concern is being overshadowed here by squabbling on he said she said nonsense. There are no guarantees any which way how anything will play out so as matter of factly as some of us are trying to be it is mere opinion at this point and clearly we can see there are valid positions for both sides of the case based on some outside references who are doing what? Trying to be heard and sell their info and grow their careers etc etc etc. I hope that makes some sense. Everyone is trying to be the next Michael Moore these days and make a massive amount of money by exploiting fear.
The government bailout is not ideal clearly they would have rather avoided it and in fact did pretty much exactly that allowing cries of "disaster" and "we need funds" to fall on deaf ears until Lehman filed for chapter 11 and the cat and mouse game became a bit too real. So what are they supposed to do? Watch the rest of their country fail apart or try something to cushion the blow?
Bad debt aside from bailing out mortgages in your own nation I'd take that debt load in an INSTANT over trying to cover the TRILLIONS of dollars lost in a pointless outside conflict that will never be returned. This 600 billion bailout is a drop in the bucket for the feds in comparison to other expenses that dont have such a pretty ending. At least the debt bailout is a one time thing and the policy writers are drafting new rules as we speak to prevent getting bitten from the same snake next time around.
Another major point to consider here is allllllll that monely and allllllll that profit made from all those bad mortgages is where? Its right in the pockets of the filthy rich right inside of America itself so it hasnt gone anywhere they just need to spend it now. As I mentioned above for the "savers" of the economy its buy time. At this very moment there are people and companies making moves that will turn them profit of immense proportions over the next ten years.
Another point to consider for the mortgage bailout is the multiplier effect a top down currency injection creates. So long as the inflation stays manageable its in the US govt's best interest to inject as much currency as the market can handle right now.
They are not so dumb as some would like to think but at the end of the day it is up to the consumers to keep spending. If no one buys the entire thing falls to pieces.
Ahhh the invisible hand
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We are in the early stages of unwinding the biggest credit bubble in history. The Investment houses that ruled Wall Street and seemed like the masters of the universe a year ago are all gone and Wall Streets old business model is gone with them, next up commercial banks, credit card debt etc., etc., The unregulated shadow banking system that grew to a size that dwarfed the world economy is collapsing and choking those looses down while keeping the financial system functioning is gonna hurt.
What impact all this will have no one can predict with precision but in the range of best case to worst case scenarios all of them involve more pain and tougher economic times. There is a reason Paulson and Bernanke are asking for an unprecedented government intervention into the markets. They are crapping in their pants at what might happen if this crisis get's away from them.
You should do the same as every corporation is now doing: prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Cut costs, get rid of debt and accumulate as much cash as possible.
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. Everyone is trying to be the next Michael Moore these days and make a massive amount of money by exploiting fear.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=223908\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Umm, Michael Moore exploiting fear.....now i have heard it all.
You are kidding.
Look no further than your current administration.
Bills passed by a republican lead Congress without debate or concern for the consequences
1. Iraq war - world securty worse
2. Patriot Act - freedom...mmmmm
And if he has his way.
3. $700billion for an ex-GS CEO to spend at his discretion with no possible oversight or repercusion should he fuck it up
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Umm, Michael Moore exploiting fear.....now i have heard it all.
You are kidding.
Look no further than your current administration.
Bills passed by a republican lead Congress without debate or concern for the consequences
1. Iraq war - world securty worse
2. Patriot Act - freedom...mmmmm
And if he has his way.
3. $700billion for an ex-GS CEO to spend at his discretion with no possible oversight or repercusion should he fuck it up
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224048\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No I'm not kidding. I never said Michael Moore was exploiting fear I said everyone else is trying to be the next Michael Moore by exploiting fear.
Also its not "my current administration" either just my current opinion
As for points 1+2? Yeah true I agree It sucks. As for the $700 billion "no strings attached bailout"? Read todays news there has been no funds transferred yet and for good reason.
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Lets do some reading together...
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=223164\")
I'm with you. America needs to cut costs. the first cut should be military spending, with our involvement in NATO being the first, lets say to zero.
[a href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:2007_top_10_countries_by_military_expenditure_MER.svg]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:2007_to...nditure_MER.svg[/url]
if you think european taxes are heavy now, wait until europe has to defend itself.
http://www.forbes.com/2000/11/02/1102atg.html (http://www.forbes.com/2000/11/02/1102atg.html)
and you can bash all the american ceo's and corporations you want but america and japan pays the world's highest corporate tax rate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:CIT_in_..._Barry_Kent.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:CIT_in_World_Barry_Kent.png)
i'm sure wallstreet would love to see a 25% slash in taxes. it would go a long way to funding the financial mess everyone is in. if coporate america had that 25% savings for the last three decades maybe lehman bros. would still be around.
just don't call the white house when you see a russian tank in your neighborhood.
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just don't call the white house when you see a russian tank in your neighborhood.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224067\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don´t think Halliburton would agree with you...
Rob C
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i'm sure wallstreet would love to see a 25% slash in taxes. it would go a long way to funding the financial mess everyone is in. if coporate america had that 25% savings for the last three decades maybe lehman bros. would still be around.
When you are holding junk paper leveraged 1000 to 1 and getting margin calls on the Ponzi scheme you created your tax rate is irrelevant. You don't pay taxes on losses. The free market levies a much higher tax on greed and stupidity -you get wiped out.
How would a tax cut protect American business and investors from wreckless stupid decisions enabled by a government in the pocket of the financial scam artists who created this mess?
They say there are no athiests in foxholes. We are now finding out there are no free market libertarians in a financial crisis. All those 'free market conservatives' who wanted governement off their backs and an end to regulation of the markets turned into Socialists overnight begging for government intervention when it was their head and not some poor working stiffs head on the chopping block.
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No I'm not kidding. I never said Michael Moore was exploiting fear I said everyone else is trying to be the next Michael Moore by exploiting fear.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224055\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What do you mean?
- What fear is everyone trying to exploit?
- How does that relate to Michael Moore?
Cheers,
Bernard
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They say there are no athiests in foxholes. We are now finding out there are no free market libertarians in a financial crisis. All those 'free market conservatives' who wanted governement off their backs and an end to regulation of the markets turned into Socialists overnight begging for government intervention when it was their head and not some poor working stiffs head on the chopping block.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=224108\")
Could not agree more. And as i pointed out in an earlier post, this is very reminicent of an old forgotten economic policy - the "Third Way".
[a href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Position]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Position[/url]
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What do you mean?
- What fear is everyone trying to exploit?
- How does that relate to Michael Moore?
Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224143\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Michael Moore made a huge success of digging into current events/news at a whole new level that takes things far beyond news and the trends since his success seem to emulate that style more and more to the point where a mere opinion ( ironically only if its radical enough ) gets taken as fact. The fear in question here is the fear of economic collapse and goes directly to the OP's post of "Are we going into another depression"?
I stated my brief thoughts on it originally and then tried to re direct back to point and avoid personal squabble matches in hoped that this thread will survive and I could read others points of views which so far has happened and been a good read.
Speaking of good read hankg well done and good points.
On the web things can spiral out of control to the point where specualation and emotionally driven agendas can supersede cold hard facts and actually hamper progress. The HYPE I guess is what I try and steer away from if possible. Interestingly enough there has been talk of this recently and how to regulate it on the BBC
For instance when the LHC experiment was being built the "fear" of these types of reporters/experts etc ( who have zero real science credibility ) managed to create such a fuss that a good chunk of the otherwise sensible world was believing that starting the machine would create a black hole that would suck us all into it. Even though ALLLLLLL the experts involved and all the real science behind it stated otherwise fiction in popular opinion that is... started to become fact.
So thats the type of crap that is happening now about the economy and the doom and gloomers who wants either hits on their websites or viewers of their work dont seem to take the same level of journalistic responsibility as I think they should.
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Michael Moore made a huge success of digging into current events/news at a whole new level that takes things far beyond news and the trends since his success seem to emulate that style more and more to the point where a mere opinion ( ironically only if its radical enough ) gets taken as fact. The fear in question here is the fear of economic collapse and goes directly to the OP's post of "Are we going into another depression"?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224155\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's Fox news brainwashing you.
Your president is the king of fear campaigns. and um, did you here your illustrious leaders words tonight? It seems, as "He" has spoken, you are officially in the poo.
No bail out = depression....according to Bush.
So, now should i be scared. Answer, yes, but not because "he" spoke, instead because there are a bunch of people who are far more educated in these matters who have been warning of this potential for months.
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Check out where your federal tax $ go, or where they could go
Before last weeks melt down...
http://www.nationalpriorities.org/Proposed...ionary%20Budget (http://www.nationalpriorities.org/Proposed%20Discretionary%20Budget)
Current cost of the war
http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar0508 (http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar0508)
The current bail out
http://www.nationalpriorities.org/node/6885 (http://www.nationalpriorities.org/node/6885)
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No bail out = depression....according to Bush.
You believe that guy? The same guy that said that Iraq had weapons of Maaaaaaaassss godamn destruction? hype........ hmmmm
What was I saying above?
Your president is the king of fear campaigns.
I dont have a President I'm not American. I'm also done posting in this thread
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Interesting to read into a bit of history behind the existence of the Federal Reserve.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve)
Some interesting points.
"Aldrich fought for a private bank with little government influence, but conceded that the government should be represented on the Board of Directors. Most Republicans favored the Aldrich Plan,[5] but it lacked enough support in the bipartisan Congress to pass.[6] Progressive Democrats instead favored a reserve system owned and operated by the government and out of control of the "money trust", ending Wall Street's control of American currency supply.[5] Conservative Democrats fought for a privately owned, yet decentralized, reserve system, which would still be free of Wall Street's control.[5] The Federal Reserve Act passed Congress in late 1913 on a mostly partisan basis, with most Democrats in support and most Republicans against it"
"The Federal Reserve has the authority and financial resources to act as “lender of last resort” by extending credit to depository institutions or to other entities in unusual circumstances involving a national or regional emergency, where failure to obtain credit would have a severe adverse impact on the economy.[15]"
mmmmm
The Federal Reserve System is the part of government that regulates the private banks. The balance between privatization and government involvement is also seen in the structure of the system.
Preventing asset bubbles
The board of directors of each Federal Reserve Bank District also have regulatory and supervisory responsibilities. For example, a member bank (private bank) is not permitted to give out too many loans to people who cannot pay them back. This is because too many defaults on loans will lead to a bank run.
So, who is really responsible for allowing this current crisis and who is now off to clean there own mess up! THE FED
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So, who is really responsible for allowing this current crisis and who is now off to clean there own mess up! THE FED
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224186\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Who is paying the interests of the money to be loaned by the Feberal Reserve to the banks to cover the mess banks created with tacit authorization from the Federal Reserve?
Cheers,
Bernard
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This is all good argument, blame switching back and forth, but if you forget that side of the thing and consider the guy with the bank account, the one wondering whether or not there´s any money still left to call upon, then it all take on a much more personal colour.
That man, the one with his savings in the bank, has little to do with running the bank or owning it, neither does it mean he has bought shares in it. He only deposited his money there as a safe alternative to under the mattress. That sounds funny now, were it not for the fact that it is too damn true.
So, as far as I am concerned, stuff the "taxpayer" part of the argument against aid - we are all taxpayers at one level or another - let us save the banks and our monies held there on trust! If we lose that we lose everything. All of us lose everything, whether or not we even have a bank account.
But there has to be a price in the form of future control. The ugly face of capitalism was around decades ago and identified as such in Great Britain; nobody learned much from the exposure, least of all government which is meant to be there to do the best for us ALL. Yes the free market works, but there is also such a thing as excess, and controlling that for the future is no bad thing. For myself, the first people I´d crucify are those who buy oil on margin, having neither wish nor ability actually to hold it, just raising the price in order to sell on the option at top dollar, just before they would have to take delivery, making money without spending any or contributing anything positive to the world. In my book, nobody who has no actual need for the product should be allowed, INTERNATIONALLY, to buy it. Nor, of course, to pretend to be buying it as described above. As everything made has to be transported, the cost to the world of such speculation is beyond calculation.
As for the greed of banks and financial advisers pushing the poor into debt they have no ability to service, the mind boggles that there are no prosecutions of the people creating these problems - or are there?
So please, bail out the banks and create a real, tight and vigilant control so that this sort of thing never again becomes anything but a bad memory.
Rob C
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As for the greed of banks and financial advisers pushing the poor into debt they have no ability to service, the mind boggles that there are no prosecutions of the people creating these problems - or are there?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224260\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Nobody was "pushed into debt". Nobody's arm was twisted to force him to take out a loan. Greedy banks played on the aspirations of greedy people.
To view the poor who took out these loans as entirely passive and unable to comprehend the concept of repaying a loan is supremely condescending.
What criminal offence do you imagine has been committed?
Jeremy
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This is all good argument, blame switching back and forth, but if you forget that side of the thing and consider the guy with the bank account, the one wondering whether or not there´s any money still left to call upon, then it all take on a much more personal colour.
That man, the one with his savings in the bank, has little to do with running the bank or owning it, neither does it mean he has bought shares in it. He only deposited his money there as a safe alternative to under the mattress. That sounds funny now, were it not for the fact that it is too damn true.
So, as far as I am concerned, stuff the "taxpayer" part of the argument against aid - we are all taxpayers at one level or another - let us save the banks and our monies held there on trust! If we lose that we lose everything. All of us lose everything, whether or not we even have a bank account.
But there has to be a price in the form of future control. The ugly face of capitalism was around decades ago and identified as such in Great Britain; nobody learned much from the exposure, least of all government which is meant to be there to do the best for us ALL. Yes the free market works, but there is also such a thing as excess, and controlling that for the future is no bad thing. For myself, the first people I´d crucify are those who buy oil on margin, having neither wish nor ability actually to hold it, just raising the price in order to sell on the option at top dollar, just before they would have to take delivery, making money without spending any or contributing anything positive to the world. In my book, nobody who has no actual need for the product should be allowed, INTERNATIONALLY, to buy it. Nor, of course, to pretend to be buying it as described above. As everything made has to be transported, the cost to the world of such speculation is beyond calculation.
As for the greed of banks and financial advisers pushing the poor into debt they have no ability to service, the mind boggles that there are no prosecutions of the people creating these problems - or are there?
So please, bail out the banks and create a real, tight and vigilant control so that this sort of thing never again becomes anything but a bad memory.
Rob C
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=224260\")
Laws are fine and dandy, but they only matter when you use them.
If the guys doing the policing are as shady as the crooks they are watching, new laws mean nothing. For example back in 05 there was a lot of concern that fanny and freddy were out of control. The guys at the head of of the pack (Dodd and Franks among others) said, back off, everything is fine. Now they are the ones setting up the "fix" Fox guarding the henhouse?
This thing is far more than America. But it looks like the American taxpayer just might foot the bill to bail out the world. Look at AIG. They are worldwide in scope.
"But the case of AIG, the US insurer, also shows the importance of another, hidden, link across financial markets, namely massive evasion of regulatory requirements. AIG’s last annual report reveals that it had written coverage for more than $300bn of credit insurance for European banks. The comment by AIG itself on these positions was that they were “for the purpose of providing them with regulatory capital relief rather than risk mitigation in exchange for a minimum guaranteed fee”. Thus, a formal default by AIG would have exposed European banks to large increases in regulatory capital requirements, with possibly devastating effects on their ratings and market confidence. Thus, the US Treasury has saved, inter alia, the European banking system"
[a href=\"http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/41960e1c-8972-11dd-8371-0000779fd18c.html?nclick_check=1]http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/41960e1c-8972-11...?nclick_check=1[/url]
From the same article:
"The crucial problem on this side of the Atlantic is that the largest European banks have become not only too big to fail, but also too big to be saved. For example, the total liabilities of Deutsche Bank (leverage ratio over 50!) amount to about €2,000bn (more than Fannie Mae) or more than 80 per cent of the gross domestic product of Germany. This is simply too much for the Bundesbank or even the German state, given that the German budget is bound by the rules of the European Union’s stability pact and the German government cannot order (unlike the US Treasury) its central bank to issue more currency. Similarly, the total liabilities of Barclays of around £1,300bn (leverage ratio 60!) are roughly equivalent to the GDP of the UK. Fortis bank has a leverage ratio of “only” 33, but its liabilities are three times the GDP of its home country of Belgium."
Again, its not the lack of regulation, but how they are applied.
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Nobody was "pushed into debt". Nobody's arm was twisted to force him to take out a loan. Greedy banks played on the aspirations of greedy people.
To view the poor who took out these loans as entirely passive and unable to comprehend the concept of repaying a loan is supremely condescending.
What criminal offence do you imagine has been committed?
Jeremy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224286\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Precisely, exactly, the most relevant point.
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Hollywood producer Aaron Russo's take on the Federal Reserve.
http://www.freedomtofascism.com/ (http://www.freedomtofascism.com/)
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Nobody was "pushed into debt". Nobody's arm was twisted to force him to take out a loan. Greedy banks played on the aspirations of greedy people.
To view the poor who took out these loans as entirely passive and unable to comprehend the concept of repaying a loan is supremely condescending.
What criminal offence do you imagine has been committed?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=224286\")
For a different perspective, read [a href=\"http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/09/25/money.pushers/index.html?iref=mpstoryview]this[/url].
Nill
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As I see this, there was HUGE wealth transfer from one corner of society to the other. Very neatly done. I am sure the big boyz got their money offshore and in gold or some other form of safe currency. Now when everything rots they will be even more powerful than before. I think the US is going sooner or later into a fascist state. It already is in some way. They make everyone believe they are free, when actually people in the US aren't as free as they think they are. It is pretty obvious when you live somewhere else and go there for holidays or whatever.
I see the US society worshipping material wealth and the dollar like their god. My impressions were of a very poor society where everyone is full of stuff and things, but real values like family ties, sense of community and frienship are very degraded, in a general sense.
The good thing about economic crisis is that people learn to be happy without material wealth. People stop needing so much stuff and that is good for people, bad for the boyz.
Everybody wants something in exchange of nothing there. I see a society full of very good people as individuals, but sick as a whole, as a group. US government has made that all people of the world dislike the US. That is very unfair with the normal working people there. But it is true, the world doesn't like the US except for the money. Nobody sees the US a friend anymore, but as a menace.
The war in Irak and Afghanistan was not pointless as someone put it in this thread. A few people got very rich doing it. All the drug money gets laundered back into the US banking system. And war, well war, is the only way out for capitalism. That really activates some peoples economy. Has nothing to do with democracy or freedom, but with money.
And the notion of the self proclaiming "America" doesn't help either. Puts in evidence lots of arrogance. America is continent from Ushuaia, Argentina, to the Canadian Arctic. This is so put into people's unconscious that even a magazine as National Geographic, whose mission and slogan is,"for the diffusion of geographical knowledge" falls into the same big arrogant error of calling the US America. It puts into evidence the philosophy behind the minds.
This thread is very interesting. I hope nobody takes offense and nobody feels insulted, for whatever reason. The actual state of things in the US is very sad, and it isn't being easier for anybody else, no matter what corner of the world you are in. I hope people can overcome the national hatred implanted into people's mind against the russians. They are good people too.
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Hollywood producer Aaron Russo's take on the Federal Reserve.
http://www.freedomtofascism.com/ (http://www.freedomtofascism.com/)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=224316\")
Yep, and a link from within that...
[a href=\"http://www.restoretherepublic.com/economy/the-idiocy-of-wall-street-applauding-its-own-demise#comment-top]http://www.restoretherepublic.com/economy/...ise#comment-top[/url]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism)
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For a different perspective, read this (http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/09/25/money.pushers/index.html?iref=mpstoryview).
Nill
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224328\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes...but as always, its free will. Somone at the other end of the phone must say yes.
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Yes...but as always, its free will. Somone at the other end of the phone must say yes.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224374\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Issues of equal knowledge and bargaining power and full disclosure do come into play. Even the law recognizes that at some point...
Nill
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Issues of equal knowledge and bargaining power and full disclosure do come into play. Even the law recognizes that at some point...
Nill
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224475\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
But it still takes a yes. Anyone can walk away from the table. I'm surely not defending excessive tactics on the part of lenders, or merchants of any kind but the ultimate decision maker is the person saying yes.
You make choices and you live by the results. Unless of course you can get the government of bail you out. That I have a problem with......it seems high finance has now become t-ball. No one loses.
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For a different perspective, read this (http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/09/25/money.pushers/index.html?iref=mpstoryview).
Nill
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224328\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks - I've read it. It contains nothing which contradicts or in any way undermines what I wrote.
Jeremy
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Just wondering after all this medium format talk and prices how many are being affected by the "new" depression that is coming...
If the economy keeps dropping I am wondering how many people are going to be buying so many new toys this year....
I for one have already been affected by the on sight of economic depression.
About Half of my clients have decided NOT to do catalogues and advertising budgets have been raped down to nothing....
Of my other 50% Client base, they have decided to cut their productions in Half!!
I am starting to hear from many other talent in the business calling around to see if anybody is working like before.
This may not be for this forum but after reading through the post of new equipment and prices etc...
I was really wondering how much investment will be going into these new tools if we will be going through an economic crisis.
Is anybody else out there starting to feel the affects yet.
Sorry Michael if this is not for this forum but in some way it does have to do with medium format photography.
Atleast for US who Live by our trade!!!
What do you guys think and what is the plan for the future???
Thanks
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=221746\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Interesting. I am not a professional photographer and I am in Japan where the problems have not directly hit most people yet---they have me as I am very closely connected to the financial industry---but I have wondered how people in the US seem to be so ready to buy the latest camera or other equipment when the current problem is undeniably very, very serious. If things continue to go bad, it will spread worldwide and put concerns with noise, pixels, and equipment into perspective very fast.
I suppose I am overestimating the seeming lack of concern as shown on photography forums, but I would not feel confident in making any type of major purchase right now. I have lost significant money in the stock market, my wife works for what was ML, and my job depends on those types of companies. But from what I have seen and heard, I would be very conservative right now. We don't know how it will turn out, but the worst case scenario is something that we don't want to experience.
Of course, one could just assume it is all exaggerated media hype and not worry. Good luck.
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I see the US society worshipping material wealth and the dollar like their god...
... But it is true, the world doesn't like the US except for the money...
This thread is very interesting. I hope nobody takes offense and nobody feels insulted, for whatever reason.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224335\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And what does that say about the rest of the world? Is it not worshiping the US dollar?
Unfortunately, there are many who do see the US in this way, generally with no really knowledge of the country other than what they may read in the NYT---of which they will take everything simplistically and literally. It is amazing that people will say things like this and assume that it will not cause offense. The US is an easy target and always has been.
After having spent a large portion of the last 25 years overseas, I have grown used to this. It did NOT start with Bush, but I hope that Americans* realize what many people really think of us and are more realistic in our foreign, military, and trade policies.
*We can blame the US for claiming the word "American" but for better or worse when it is used in Asia it means the US.
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It is amazing that people will say things like this and assume that it will not cause offense. The US is an easy target and always has been.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224540\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You harvest what you have sown. And yes you are very right, now the weaknesses are very evident.
Now that WaMu is dead, wealth transfer is almost complete. Just one check away. There's going to be a big party somewhere if that happens, and no mortals will be invited.
Lets go back to pixels and sensors. Lets not ruin the good nature of these forums with such trivial matters as global economic meltdown. This is touchy issue for most of us, and there are other places in the web where to ventilate these fears and angsts.
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After having spent a large portion of the last 25 years overseas, I have grown used to this. It did NOT start with Bush, but I hope that Americans* realize what many people really think of us and are more realistic in our foreign, military, and trade policies.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224540\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Anti-americanism is for sure not new. I am with you in thinking that a lot of it is unfair. Many Americans are doing great and generous things.
Europe used to love the US when you guys were smoking pot and flooding us with cool cars and music. What many Europeans didn't understand back then was that 20% of Americans were involved in that while the opposite 20% were praying every night for God to save California.
What many Europeans still don't get today is that the 20% of Americans still supporting Bush on Fox are no more representative than the pot smokers were 40 years ago.
The thing though is that the very manicheism that America's marketing forces have been making more and more mainstream a perception of the World has backfired at America. Counting the innocent civilians death toll in Irak, it becomes impossible to consider America as a force for the good in a world where you have to be either with or against them.
My cynical hope is that another perceived US trait often disliked by the rest of the world - the universal love for money as the great equalizer - will help corporations convince the politicians they fund that anti-americanism is bad for business. If the world has to be America's customer for America to stay wealthy... then it might make sense to please the world. The customer is king.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Anti-americanism is for sure not new. I am with you in thinking that a lot of it is unfair. Many Americans are doing great and generous things.
Europe used to love the US when you guys were smoking pot and flooding us with cool cars and music. What many Europeans didn't understand back then was that 20% of Americans were involved in that while the opposite 20% were praying every night for God to save California.
What many Europeans still don't get today is that the 20% of Americans still supporting Bush on Fox are no more representative than the pot smokers were 40 years ago.
The thing though is that the very manicheism that America's marketing forces have been making more and more mainstream a perception of the World has backfired at America. Counting the innocent civilians death toll in Irak, it becomes impossible to consider America as a force for the good in a world where you have to be either with or against them.
My cynical hope is that another perceived US trait often disliked by the rest of the world - the universal love for money as the great equalizer - will help corporations convince the politicians they fund that anti-americanism is bad for business. If the world has to be America's customer for America to stay wealthy... then it might make sense to please the world. The customer is king.
Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224629\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm only willing to argue one point of your post. Yes the customer IS king, and the US is arguablly the king customer of the world. For good or bad, as the US goes so goes the rest of the world.
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Pat Buchanan wrote a column a few weeks ago, perhaps the only thing he ever wrote in his life that I agreed with. One of his major themes in the piece was that, as a group, we Americans seem to be uniquely incapable of seeing ourselves as others see us.
Nill
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Pat Buchanan wrote a column a few weeks ago, perhaps the only thing he ever wrote in his life that I agreed with. One of his major themes in the piece was that, as a group, we Americans seem to be uniquely incapable of seeing ourselves as others see us.
Nill
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224671\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Or is it that we just really don't care what others think?
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Post deleted
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I'm only willing to argue one point of your post. Yes the customer IS king, and the US is arguablly the king customer of the world. For good or bad, as the US goes so goes the rest of the world.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224669\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Tell Coca-cola, Oakley and Nike whether the image of the US matters to them or not...
But you are of course correct, our economies are indeed highly connected. I guess that Japan and China will be a impacted even more than Europe though.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Pat Buchanan wrote a column a few weeks ago, perhaps the only thing he ever wrote in his life that I agreed with. One of his major themes in the piece was that, as a group, we Americans seem to be uniquely incapable of seeing ourselves as others see us.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224671\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Maybe because US is a capital verson of "us"?
Cheers,
Bernard
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I'm only willing to argue one point of your post. Yes the customer IS king, and the US is arguablly the king customer of the world. For good or bad, as the US goes so goes the rest of the world.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224669\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, and as your financial system continues to fail, so the rest of us have to suffer, for we sheep seem to continually believe that the US way is the only way.
The US has lost the worlds trust regarding Foreign policy and now Monitory policy.
As a result, the US remains responsible for its actions, and as the rest of the world has abandoned the US foreign policy, i think the recent financial situation will result in the long term fundamental shift of foreign capital investment in the US.
The result will be, the US will no longer be capable to maintain itself as the King customer.
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Pat Buchanan wrote a column a few weeks ago, perhaps the only thing he ever wrote in his life that I agreed with. One of his major themes in the piece was that, as a group, we Americans seem to be uniquely incapable of seeing ourselves as others see us.
Nill
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224671\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, you can blame that on a couple of factors.
You first need to stop seeing the world as an inferior subject of your empire.
You need to avoid Fox news!
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Tell Coca-cola, Oakley and Nike whether the image of the US matters to them or not...
But you are of course correct, our economies are indeed highly connected. I guess that Japan and China will be a impacted even more than Europe though.
Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224763\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think what really matters to Coke, Oakley and Nike is what the consumers think of the product, not the location of the headquarters.
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Yes, and as your financial system continues to fail, so the rest of us have to suffer, for we sheep seem to continually believe that the US way is the only way.
The US has lost the worlds trust regarding Foreign policy and now Monitory policy.
As a result, the US remains responsible for its actions, and as the rest of the world has abandoned the US foreign policy, i think the recent financial situation will result in the long term fundamental shift of foreign capital investment in the US.
The result will be, the US will no longer be capable to maintain itself as the King customer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224800\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well sorry to burst your bubble but it's the financial system of most of the free world that is failing. You seem to want to paint yourself as some sort of poor victim, yet the truth be told, the financial giants worldwide made informed decisions and they used FREE WILL to place thier bets. Don't blame the US.
And the truth be told the US never HAD the worlds trust, so what exactly has been lost? Nothing. Oh you were more than happy for us to keep the Russian boogy man at bay with our tax dollars but trust us? NEVER.
Economics change. Things go up and things go down. Its the nature of the beast. There is no doubt that consumerism will be in decline in the US for some time. There is also no doubt that this downturn will be reflected WORLDWIDE. I think we will STILL be the king consumer...just consuming less. Of course those that provide the products will be producing and selling less as well.
BTW, exactly were are you from? Your profile is really weak on information.
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Well sorry to burst your bubble but it's the financial system of most of the free world that is failing. You seem to want to paint yourself as some sort of poor victim, yet the truth be told, the financial giants worldwide made informed decisions and they used FREE WILL to place thier bets. Don't blame the US.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224823\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Um, do your research mate (hint where i'm from).
The deregulation of the banking and finance system of your country by your administration is exactly what allowed the "free will" of the greedy to sell an un-sellable product to the greedy consumers who could never afford it.
The greedy financial firms around the world saw a way of getting in on something, via the backdoor) that in there own countries (including mine) they were not allowed to do due to regulation.
Blame the US entirely - for it is the free market economic philosophy with less regulation, less government and less oversight (just let the market control it all and allow the market to self-correct) that has you us the poo. Even your house republicans are balking at the bailout plans cause it pretty much amounts to the socialism of your financial system.
But just letting the markets sought out there own mess did not and continues to fail. WAMU today- the largest ever savings and loan failure in history. Your government came in and siezed it and then sold it off.
Dammed if you do, dammed if you dont
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Um, do your research mate (hint where i'm from).
The deregulation of the banking and finance system of your country by your administration is exactly what allowed the "free will" of the greedy to sell an un-sellable product to the greedy consumers who could never afford it.
The greedy financial firms around the world saw a way of getting in on something, via the backdoor) that in there own countries (including mine) they were not allowed to do due to regulation.
Blame the US entirely - for it is the free market economic philosophy with less regulation, less government and less oversight (just let the market control it all and allow the market to self-correct) that has you us the poo. Even your house republicans are balking at the bailout plans cause it pretty much amounts to the socialism of your financial system.
But just letting the markets sought out there own mess did not and continues to fail. WAMU today- the largest ever savings and loan failure in history. Your government came in and siezed it and then sold it off.
Dammed if you do, dammed if you dont
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224828\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why don't you explain EXACTLY what "my administration" did in regards to deregulation of the banking and financial systems. Should be an interesting post on your part.
bf sez: "exactly what allowed the "free will" of the greedy to sell an un-sellable product to the greedy consumers who could never afford it."
Gotta love this line of yours. Free will cuts both ways. If you want to sell something you need someone WILLING to buy it. And something cannot be "un-sellable" if some one purchases it. Amazing logic. No wonder the free market confuses you.
bf sez: "Blame the US entirely - for it is the free market economic philosophy with less regulation, less government and less oversight (just let the market control it all and allow the market to self-correct) that has you us the poo."
I'm more than happy to place the blame on quite a good part of America for our current troubles. But your "We are just poor victims of the evil US" crap is just that...crap. By you own admission the so called regulation you put so much faith in YOUR country did nothing, and yet you want to blame the US! Again what amazing logic! The bottom line is that the US never forced anyone to buy anything, and the financials making the purchases were quite savvy and knew the risks.
bf sez: "Even your house republicans are balking at the bailout plans cause it pretty much amounts to the socialism of your financial system."
I agree with them. Let the market sort out their own mess. Let the bad companies fail. Let those with the cash and vision swoop in a pick the carcass clean and rebuild. That’s how capitalism works. And like it or not it’s the best system in the world.
Lets just take the big hit now and rebuild, rather that the a slow death of a thousand cuts. I had hoped that the congress would have learned form the utter failure of FDR. But I guess not.
bf sez: "But just letting the markets sought out there own mess did not and continues to fail. WAMU today- the largest ever savings and loan failure in history. Your government came in and siezed it and then sold it off."
This really IS beyond your ken. The failure of WAMU IS the market working and sorting out their mess.
WAMU made bad business decisions and failed. The owners (shareholders) lost their butts as they should. Governmental regulation (you know the stuff you say we don't have) stepped in and protected the depositors moneys up the prescribed limits and a stronger company swooped in a picked the remains clean.
In other words it’s exactly how the free market works.
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WAMU made bad business decisions and failed. The owners (shareholders) lost their butts as they should. Governmental regulation (you know the stuff you say we don't have) stepped in and protected the depositors moneys up the prescribed limits and a stronger company swooped in a picked the remains clean.
In other words it’s exactly how the free market works.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=224888\")
Well, no, when the government comes in it is not the market correcting itself. Its government intervention, as you said, to protect the depositors. If they had not then the deposits are lost, panic, run other banks etc.
Its a good thing that your government came in to save the day, but that is not free market economy. WAMU had over $150billion in holdings, more than the FDIC could afford to insure it for. So, it served better to save it and save the savings. So stop proporting that the markets should self-correct, cause in the case of WAMU, they did not.
The Fed, or US govt central bank, was put in place by the US govt in the early part of the C20th to do exactly what they did with WAMU and what they are trying to do with the rest. However, that is not free market economics.
[a href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System[/url]
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Well, no, when the government comes in it is not the market correcting itself. Its government intervention, as you said, to protect the depositors. If they had not then the deposits are lost, panic, run other banks etc.
Its a good thing that your government came in to save the day, but that is not free market economy. WAMU had over $150billion in holdings, more than the FDIC could afford to insure it for. So, it served better to save it and save the savings. So stop proporting that the markets should self-correct, cause in the case of WAMU, they did not.
The Fed, or US govt central bank, was put in place by the US govt in the early part of the C20th to do exactly what they did with WAMU and what they are trying to do with the rest. However, that is not free market economics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224971\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes it is the market correcting itself. The governent did not bail out WAMU and the shareholders. The FDIC is INSURANCE...paid for by the banks. Thats what protects the depositors money up to the 100k limit. Anything beyond that you lose.
And the FED is not the government, which you would have known if you would have actually read your posted WIKI link. The government has no power to make the FED do anything other than by statute. From your link:
"As an independent institution, the Federal Reserve has the authority to act on its own without prior approval from Congress or the President."
So once again your argument fails. It IS the free market in action.
The FED brokered a deal where one for profit company purchased the deposit assets of another for profit but failing company. The GOVERNMENT had nothing to do with it. How could they? The government has no authority.
Nobody SAVED WAMU. In fact for all intents WAMU is gone. Eaten by a bigger and stronger competitor. The free market in action.
Missing from your post is your answer to this:
"Why don't you explain EXACTLY what "my administration" did in regards to deregulation of the banking and financial systems."
That appears to be the entire basis for your position. Surely you have the data at hand to back it up. Or is there no wiki entry.....
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Yes it is the market correcting itself. The governent did not bail out WAMU and the shareholders. The FDIC is INSURANCE...paid for by the banks. Thats what protects the depositors money up to the 100k limit. Anything beyond that you lose.
And the FED is not the government, which you would have known if you would have actually read your posted WIKI link. The government has no power to make the FED do anything other than by statute. From your link:
"As an independent institution, the Federal Reserve has the authority to act on its own without prior approval from Congress or the President."
So once again your argument fails. It IS the free market in action.
The FED brokered a deal where one for profit company purchased the deposit assets of another for profit but failing company. The GOVERNMENT had nothing to do with it. How could they? The government has no authority.
Nobody SAVED WAMU. In fact for all intents WAMU is gone. Eaten by a bigger and stronger competitor. The free market in action.
Missing from your post is your answer to this:
"Why don't you explain EXACTLY what "my administration" did in regards to deregulation of the banking and financial systems."
That appears to be the entire basis for your position. Surely you have the data at hand to back it up. Or is there no wiki entry.....
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=224982\")
Again, dont be so blind.
[a href=\"http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/26/markets/bondcenter/treasury_prices/index.htm]http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/26/markets/bo...rices/index.htm[/url]
I think the phrase you need to read is this.
"The announcement that JPMorgan Chase (JPM, Fortune 500) acquired the banking assets of Washington Mutual (WM, Fortune 500) late Thursday after the beleaguered thrift was seized by federal regulators sent yet another shock to already skittish lenders"
That amount to government intervention - and thus not free market.
2nd point - The Fed is a quasi-government entity that has a presedent appointed board. Its the 1st paragraph - do you not read?
and if you read a bit further you read this
"The system was designed out of a compromise between the competing philosophies of privatization and government regulation.[19] While planning the design of the system, some people wanted the system to have generally private aspects whereas others wanted more government involvement. The system that resulted ended up being a compromise between these two philosophies. In 2006 Donald L. Kohn, vice chairman of the Board of Governors, summarized the history of this compromise:[22]
Agrarian and progressive interests, led by William Jennings Bryan, favored a central bank under public, rather than banker, control. But the vast majority of the nation's bankers, concerned about government intervention in the banking business, opposed a central bank structure directed by political appointees. The legislation that Congress ultimately adopted in 1913 reflected a hard-fought battle to balance these two competing views and created the hybrid public-private, centralized-decentralized structure that we have today.
In the current system, private banks are for-profit businesses but government regulation places restrictions on what they can do. The Federal Reserve System is the part of government that regulates the private banks. The balance between privatization and government involvement is also seen in the structure of the system. Private banks elect members of the board of directors at their regional Federal Reserve Bank while the members of the Board of Governors are selected by the President of the United States and confirmed by the Senate. The private banks give input to the government officials about their economic situation and these government officials use this input in Federal Reserve policy decisions. In the end, private banking businesses are able to freely run a profitable business while the U.S. government, through the Federal Reserve System, oversees and regulates the activities of the private banks"
Moreover, if you believe that it is private how do you feel that you tax dollars are managed by a private firm? They're not, look at its mandate and control.
Finally, thought i would through this one in
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/advice-fo...pbg.html?page=1 (http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/advice-for-top-dogs-your-bus-is-coming-20080927-4pbg.html?page=1)
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All govt's, no matter what, exist at the whim of their people. The U.S. govt. does what it does by pre-dumbing its people, softening them up for the screwing they get. Look around at your neighbors. They sit on their fat behinds watching their big fat TV's, and when they leave the big fat house they take their big fat SUV. Europeans by and large rejected much of this decades ago. Americans actually went *backwards* in the past 30 years thanks in part to fascist-loving Gen-X and their fascination with Dumb-and-Dumber (Mike Myers, Beavis & Butthead et al).
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I'm an independent and was happy to vote for Obama (change vs. more of the same) but this financial debacle has changed my mind. I'm now in the 3rd party camp. The Democrats are trying to pass a $450 billion spending bill with $25 billion for Ford and GM and $7 billion of pork. And this is WHILE they're wrestling with the housing bailout. THE LAST THING WE NEED NOW IS INCREASED SPENDING. Hell, they could finance the bailout by CUTTING spending.
And this just angers me to no end....READ:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1222470154...=googlenews_wsj (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122247015469280723.html?mod=googlenews_wsj)
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We Americans are going to have to pay for our greed, and I don't think there's any escape. If you don't understand the depths of depravity of the American psyche, here's ONE tiny example: I had a Honda car in 1987 that got 62 mpg highway, and Honda continued making those until circa 1995. Nowdays you can get 45 mpg only in a hybrid with a $7,000 battery. All gas cars - 30 mpg max. So we've gone way backwards. But physical recovery isn't possible without a mental fix first, and you can see from Fox news and the other rightwing talk shows that America is still deep in denial. There's probably no hope. Remember the famous words of Rodney King: "Can't we all get along?"
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have you ever heard of the Community Re-investment Act and what is was deigned to do.
Have a read of this and you will see where it all went wrong with freddie and fannie
http://www.ffiec.gov/cra/ (http://www.ffiec.gov/cra/)
From wiki
"In 2003, the Bush Administration recommended what the NY Times called "the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago." [10] This change was to move governmental supervision of two of the primary agents guaranteeing subprime loans, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac under a new agency created within the Department of the Treasury. However, it did not alter the implicit guarantee that Washington will bail the companies out if they run into financial difficulty; that perception enabled them to issue debt at significantly lower rates than their competitors"
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There is one thing American citizens should be very careful about. Since it is also going to impact many non Americans, we should all be very concerned.
Sept 11th was used by various entities to push agendas way farther than would have been thinkable days before the attacks.
What we have here is a very similar event, and I am concerned that once more, the fear of American citizens might be used to pass various reforms that would not have had a chance to be adopted in normal times.
What needs to be understood is who exactly is paying for the proposed 700 B$ aimed at stabilizing the banking system and what will be the impact in the coming years. Among these, a key aspect is the managment of the interest of this debt. What is the interest rate, and how is this going to be funded?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Again, dont be so blind.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/26/markets/bo...rices/index.htm (http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/26/markets/bondcenter/treasury_prices/index.htm)
I think the phrase you need to read is this.
"The announcement that JPMorgan Chase (JPM, Fortune 500) acquired the banking assets of Washington Mutual (WM, Fortune 500) late Thursday after the beleaguered thrift was seized by federal regulators sent yet another shock to already skittish lenders"
That amount to government intervention - and thus not free market.
2nd point - The Fed is a quasi-government entity that has a presedent appointed board. Its the 1st paragraph - do you not read?
and if you read a bit further you read this
"The system was designed out of a compromise between the competing philosophies of privatization and government regulation.[19] While planning the design of the system, some people wanted the system to have generally private aspects whereas others wanted more government involvement. The system that resulted ended up being a compromise between these two philosophies. In 2006 Donald L. Kohn, vice chairman of the Board of Governors, summarized the history of this compromise:[22]
Agrarian and progressive interests, led by William Jennings Bryan, favored a central bank under public, rather than banker, control. But the vast majority of the nation's bankers, concerned about government intervention in the banking business, opposed a central bank structure directed by political appointees. The legislation that Congress ultimately adopted in 1913 reflected a hard-fought battle to balance these two competing views and created the hybrid public-private, centralized-decentralized structure that we have today.
In the current system, private banks are for-profit businesses but government regulation places restrictions on what they can do. The Federal Reserve System is the part of government that regulates the private banks. The balance between privatization and government involvement is also seen in the structure of the system. Private banks elect members of the board of directors at their regional Federal Reserve Bank while the members of the Board of Governors are selected by the President of the United States and confirmed by the Senate. The private banks give input to the government officials about their economic situation and these government officials use this input in Federal Reserve policy decisions. In the end, private banking businesses are able to freely run a profitable business while the U.S. government, through the Federal Reserve System, oversees and regulates the activities of the private banks"
Moreover, if you believe that it is private how do you feel that you tax dollars are managed by a private firm? They're not, look at its mandate and control.
Finally, thought i would through this one in
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/advice-fo...pbg.html?page=1 (http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/advice-for-top-dogs-your-bus-is-coming-20080927-4pbg.html?page=1)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=225007\")
Sheesh this is SO beyond you it’s NOT funny. Once more and maybe this time it will sink in.
The FED makes it OWN decisions. It has a mandate by statue (that’s a LAW in case you don't understand). The ONLY way congress (who makes the laws) can order the FED to do ANYTHING is to create a new law. The Presidents only role is one of appointment, and his appointments span many terms. He can't order the FED to do ANYTHING either. The government does not fund the FED and the actual shares of stock in the FED are MEMBER BANK owned.
So to clear this up for you once and for all (as it seems your repeated trips to wiki and Google are failing you) the "federal" regulators were actually the FED who act for themselves and not the government. The regulations (note there is a regulation and not your mythical "deregulation") require they step in to a seize a failing bank. They then brokered a PRIVATE deal between to private companies. Notice the key word here is PRIVATE. SO to review ONCE again for you. The GOVERNMENT was not involved. The FED was. You got it yet?
And for you final mistake...the FED does not "manage our tax dollars. Congress does that. Give it up. You don't have a clue.
Next time forget wiki and go to the source.
[a href=\"http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/faq/faqfrs.htm#5]http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/faq/faqfrs.htm#5[/url]
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have you ever heard of the Community Re-investment Act and what is was deigned to do.
Have a read of this and you will see where it all went wrong with freddie and fannie
http://www.ffiec.gov/cra/ (http://www.ffiec.gov/cra/)
From wiki
"In 2003, the Bush Administration recommended what the NY Times called "the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago." [10] This change was to move governmental supervision of two of the primary agents guaranteeing subprime loans, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac under a new agency created within the Department of the Treasury. However, it did not alter the implicit guarantee that Washington will bail the companies out if they run into financial difficulty; that perception enabled them to issue debt at significantly lower rates than their competitors"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225069\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
ROFLMAO! A word of advice for you BF. When you are up to your neck in a hole the best thing you can do is stop digging.
CFA was started under President CARTER. That was FOUR administations ago.
Regardless that bill was ADDITIONAL regulation on the banking industry. It was NOT deregulation.
Deregulation: "The reduction or elimination of government power in a particular industry, usually enacted to create more competition within the industry."
CFA did exactly the opposite. It was a mandate that banks and mortage companes extend credit to minority and low income communities and small business. It also based decisions about a banks growth on its actions in regard to CFA. It was added yet onemre ADDITIONAL layer of regulation, it sure did not deregulate anything.
In 03 GW Bush, along with others saw the problem with Freddy and Fanny growing out of control and he wanted to create EVEN MORE regulation to reign them in. Congress said no. We will never know if this ADDITIONAL regulation would have changed the course of history, but facts are quite clear. Your claims that DEREGULATION by "my administration"...whatever that means..was the cause of the current problems is just plain wrong.
Now if you want another shovel, I'll be glad to give you one. But given the size of hole you are in I might suggest a ladder and a nap.
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There is one thing American citizens should be very careful about. Since it is also going to impact many non Americans, we should all be very concerned.
Sept 11th was used by various entities to push agendas way farther than would have been thinkable days before the attacks.
What we have here is a very similar event, and I am concerned that once more, the fear of American citizens might be used to pass various reforms that would not have had a chance to be adopted in normal times.
What needs to be understood is who exactly is paying for the proposed 700 B$ aimed at stabilizing the banking system and what will be the impact in the coming years. Among these, a key aspect is the managment of the interest of this debt. What is the interest rate, and how is this going to be funded?
Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225079\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree. this bailout is really bad news. US history is littered with really bad laws created in the heat of hte moment of a crisis or precieved crisis without an understanding of the long term potential for problems.
US public opinion is running quite high against the bill. I just read that one congressman (I'm not sure who) wanted to make it a requirement that the entire bill be posted on the internet for at least 24 hours befire the vote so the people can read it and respond. I truly hope that happens.
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All govt's, no matter what, exist at the whim of their people. The U.S. govt. does what it does by pre-dumbing its people, softening them up for the screwing they get. Look around at your neighbors. They sit on their fat behinds watching their big fat TV's, and when they leave the big fat house they take their big fat SUV. Europeans by and large rejected much of this decades ago. Americans actually went *backwards* in the past 30 years thanks in part to fascist-loving Gen-X and their fascination with Dumb-and-Dumber (Mike Myers, Beavis & Butthead et al).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225025\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
dalethorn, you brought up these same points a few months ago on a completely different topic. I though Beavis & Butthead dried up years ago. Does 1990s slapstick entertainment prove to you that american culture has declined terribly? So back in the golden age, when all was right and true, we didn't have vaudeville, Al Jolsen and the Three Stooges I guess.
Also, please be a little careful with the "f" word. Many of us have friends who lost families in the holocaust, which was clearly not an american invention. Complain about the current administration if you wish, but political dissapointment must surely be somewhat less severe than being marched off to a gas chamber along with your children. That's authentic fascism.
And europeans "rejected" the opportunity to buy expensive wasteful thing years ago? Really? Seen the price on an Aston Martin or Ferrari lately? Then there's the Porsche Cayenne, BMW X5 and the latest Range Rovers. Last time I was in London, those kinds of things were everywhere. By and large, the really expensive, decadent stuff all comes from europe, Cuban cigars notwithstanding. Seems to me the europeans like the high life as much as much as we do, it's just that most of them can't afford as much of it as we can.
We Americans are going to have to pay for our greed, and I don't think there's any escape. If you don't understand the depths of depravity of the American psyche, here's ONE tiny example: I had a Honda car in 1987 that got 62 mpg highway, and Honda continued making those until circa 1995. Nowdays you can get 45 mpg only in a hybrid with a $7,000 battery. All gas cars - 30 mpg max. So we've gone way backwards. But physical recovery isn't possible without a mental fix first, and you can see from Fox news and the other rightwing talk shows that America is still deep in denial. There's probably no hope. Remember the famous words of Rodney King: "Can't we all get along?"
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225052\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yeah, my '67 XKE got 30 on the highway, but it had no airbags and no emissions controls equipment whatsoever. It was certain to require extremely expensive body work in even the most minor of accidents. Let's not even consider what might happen to the occupants in one of those that crashed at high speed.
Since '87, there have been a raft of pollution, repairability and safety mandates on the auto manufacturers that add lots and lots of weight and bulk to cars, which works against fuel economy. Was that an example of the evil government trying to screw the taxpayer, the greedy auto companies refusing to sell anything worthwhile, or the public just wanting to clean up their air and face better odds in collisions? Which party was more stupid? And, in case you forgot, Hondas and Toyotas are all designed in Japan.
I'm tired of being told I'm a dimwit compared to all those sophisticates elsewhere in the world. I've lived other countries for years, worked in every country in Europe and most in Asia, been to Australia, New Zealand, and most of the larger islands in the Pacific. So far, though I've met wonderful people everywhere, and seen admirable things all over the world, I'm still convinced that I prefer our way of life. Call me blind if you wish, but if you insist I must be stupid or uninformed, consider what that says about your own tolerance of others' opinions and your respect for their life experiences.
We certainly have no corner on ignorance. An associate of mine from Africa tried to convince me that he had to leave his home country because its president was posessed by four demons, all of which had names that were discussed by everyone in his country. An educated man in Cambodia, one the savage Khmer Rouge had allowed to live, told me he was sorry he could never come to the US because he knew that he'd be given a blood test on landing here, and then thrown in prison for life because he'd used marijuana in the 60s. Sure, these extreme misconceptions aren't common in Europe, but I have two words to remind you that europeans aren't completely perfect either: soccer hooligans. Ignorance, evil and stupidity know no borders, sir.
I'm not as pessimistic as you appear to be. I believe we'll get through this crisis, and the next, and the one after that. I'm not even suffering much over the oil spike; I bought a Vespa.
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US public opinion is running quite high against the bill. I just read that one congressman (I'm not sure who) wanted to make it a requirement that the entire bill be posted on the internet for at least 24 hours befire the vote so the people can read it and respond. I truly hope that happens.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225113\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I guess that what needs also to be taken into account is the impact on individuals savings, etc... so I am personnally not saying that the governement shouldn't do anything, just that there is a need to be very careful about understanding what is being proposed and the consequences.
Among these things, as I have already mentioned several times, where does the money come from? Then, by who and how will the amounts commited be paid back?...
Very few people seem to understand in the US how exactly the Federal Bank is creating/lending money and how this money is paid back. Considering the lack of liquidity of the private banks making up the Federal Reserve, there are probably 2 possibilities:
1. This money is created out of thin air without any real backing -> what are the consequences? It can only result in a further weaking of the US$ and more inflation in the country, correct?
2. This money is lend by non US banks -> what are the consequences? The actual result if basically the sell out of US assets to non US entities, among which China is probably a major player, correct?
Besides, isn't the money proposed in the end going to be used to help the banks making up the Federal Reserve itself?
I would love to hear a clear explanation on this.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I watch on from afar, but sadly the impact is travelling the distance, our retirement accounts are crashing (most have a least some exposure to the US economy).
An interesting opinion on the situation can be found here (http://paulorfaleasblog.blogspot.com/).
In case the blog is updated, it's the entry on September 23rd.
And if we go back to Paul's March 19 post (in the same blog) we find my insight-of-the-year contender: "Giving money to institutions that failed at their only job, which was to have money, may not be the best strategy."
Fergus.
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Good old Darwinian capitalism in action.
I have a feeling that a future Gibbon, writing his "Decline and Fall of the American Empire", will mark this decade's events as significant accelerants of the collapse.
Edit: I'm not US-bashing! Just sad. I love the place and the people.
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I guess that what needs also to be taken into account is the impact on individuals savings, etc... so I am personnally not saying that the governement shouldn't do anything, just that there is a need to be very careful about understanding what is being proposed and the consequences.
Among these things, as I have already mentioned several times, where does the money come from? Then, by who and how will the amounts commited be paid back?...
Very few people seem to understand in the US how exactly the Federal Bank is creating/lending money and how this money is paid back. Considering the lack of liquidity of the private banks making up the Federal Reserve, there are probably 2 possibilities:
1. This money is created out of thin air without any real backing -> what are the consequences? It can only result in a further weaking of the US$ and more inflation in the country, correct?
2. This money is lend by non US banks -> what are the consequences? The actual result if basically the sell out of US assets to non US entities, among which China is probably a major player, correct?
Besides, isn't the money proposed in the end going to be used to help the banks making up the Federal Reserve itself?
I would love to hear a clear explanation on this.
Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225134\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm afraid there is going to be an impact on the individual and its going to be bad, long term. How can it not? But that is really the crux of the current negative feelings toward this bill. It bails out the big guys who played badly and forces the little guy to pay the tab.
Of course this is mostly speculation as we really don't know what is in the bill. As of this morning (Sunday) the word is that an agreement has been reached in principal but the bill has yet to be drafted and voted upon. I'm not holding my breath that the bill is a good one and I'm not convinced it is needed. There are a bunch of competeting plans for fixing this crisis out there that don't involve a 700B (or more) bailout.
The sad but true fact is that there is going to be some real pain involved in this correction. As I stated eariler I'm living it. For the past 25 years my career and business was based on the RV, Marine and Cargo Trailer industries. It was a very good business for many years but the products were either toys or tied to the construction trades. Toys required people with good incomes and an access to credit..and cheap fuel. Construction the same. For the most part those things are gone and the industries are way way down. I've had to close my large studio and regroup. Thats life. I'm not asking anyone to fix it for me. I was fully aware of costs, risks and rewards. Thats all I expect from the guys they are trying to bail out.
I'm sorry for writing a book, but this is complicated stuff. Sadly this is a worldwide problem. EVERYONE has been living large for a long time and to borrow a phrase, the chickens are coming home to roost. I don't believe there is a quick fix and I don't think the correction will be a soft landing. I really hope I'm wrong.
Here is the best "easy" explanation of the Fed and money I have read. Of course this is an huge topic , the subject of many many books...
1. where does the money come from
What we call money in the USA is actually Federal Reserve notes (take a look at the bills in your pocket). All outstanding Federal Reserve notes are considered liabilities of the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve has to match liabilities with assets, so it can't simply "print money" when it want to increase the money supply.
However, it can buy Treasuries, either directly from the U.S. Treasury or private banks. Since Treasuries are considered assets, the Fed can pay for the treasuries with newly created Federal Reserve notes.
The Fed can also temporarily increase the money supply by borrowing securities and lending new notes for a short time. These are known as repos (repurchase agreements). The most common repos last either overnight or for two weeks. At the end of this time, the bank gives back the money, which is destroyed (since the Fed no longer holds an offsetting asset), plus a bit of interest which helps pay the Feds costs.
These increases - both from repos and treasury sales - are greatly magnified in the economy, because all of the new money is placed in a bank where it can be loaned out (less reserves). Since a bank only needs to keep 10% of its deposits on reserve, the banking system can essentially loan out each dollar 9 times over. This is called the money multiplier.
If you take a look at the Fed Balance Sheet (I'm referring to the 8/16/07 version, but the link will take you to the most current one), you'll see that the Fed is holding assets of $867 billion in Treasuries, $36 billion in repos and a few odds and ends like $11 billion in gold. Their liabilities are dominated by $812 billion in "Currency in circulation."
The effect of the money multiplier can be seen be comparing the currency in circulation with M2, the Fed's most all-encompassing published measure of all the money in the economy. The last published M2 data is for August 6, when M2 was $7.3 trillion.
2. who gets this money
First banks and the U.S. Government, then everyone through loans from banks, interest payments from the government and government spending.
3. how do they pay back
4. is there an interest they have to pay
Yes, people and businesses and banks pay interest on their loans and the government pays interest on Treasuries.
5. who is eligible to use the discount window
Banks. The window (think bank teller window) is a Fed program where banks can get overnight loans at slightly higher than market rates. Banks will normally borrow these funds from each other, but in times when more money in aggregate is being withdrawn from banks than deposited, Fed loans through the discount window help ensure there is enough money to go around.
6. is that free money
No, Fed overnight loans are fully secured and the bank does pay a premium (typically 1%) for these loans. But the discount window provides an important safeguard in a credit freeze, by allowing the bank to raise money by borrowing against collateral that might be impossible to sell in the open market.
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US public opinion is running quite high against the bill. I just read that one congressman (I'm not sure who) wanted to make it a requirement that the entire bill be posted on the internet for at least 24 hours befire the vote so the people can read it and respond. I truly hope that happens.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225113\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
US public opinion is funny. A very tiny percentage of people understand anything about these issues. The US public is enamored with sound bites and thinks that what they see on TV is news rather than opinion.
We're happy as long as our jobs and lives aren't threatened. Its easy to be outraged with the executives and corporate boards who seem responsible for this mess. Who doesn't love a scapegoat? Its harder to see the hundreds of thousands or millions of people who are or will be deeply impacted by the current economic crisis.
Everyone is a free market capitalist until it backfires and causes them pain. Be careful what you ask for. You may actually get it.
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.......I though Beavis & Butthead dried up years ago.......
.......Also, please be a little careful with the "f" word.......
.......That's authentic fascism.......
.......Seen the price on an Aston Martin or Ferrari lately?.......
The point of B&B is the longterm effect on culture, which is beyond you. Real fascism is corporate rule, which is why we invested so much in Hitler (Bush, Harriman et al), also beyond you. And your cars of the rich is a straw man, since I spoke of cars of the common person. Come to think of it, one of Hitler's significant legacies was the car for everyone. Kinda like his pal Henry Ford, author of anti-Jewish propaganda.
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Here is the best "easy" explanation of the Fed and money I have read. Of course this is an huge topic , the subject of many many books...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225170\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Craig,
Thanks for spending the time writing this.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Craig,
Thanks for spending the time writing this.
Cheers,
Bernard
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=225178\")
Just to be fair, and in case you missed it in my post I did not write the explanation about the fed, it came from another forum I visit and was written by a member there.
here is the link
[a href=\"http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5233&mrr=1187878088]http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic....&mrr=1187878088[/url]
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US public opinion is funny. A very tiny percentage of people understand anything about these issues. The US public is enamored with sound bites and thinks that what they see on TV is news rather than opinion.
We're happy as long as our jobs and lives aren't threatened. Its easy to be outraged with the executives and corporate boards who seem responsible for this mess. Who doesn't love a scapegoat? Its harder to see the hundreds of thousands or millions of people who are or will be deeply impacted by the current economic crisis.
Everyone is a free market capitalist until it backfires and causes them pain. Be careful what you ask for. You may actually get it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225175\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You are quite right to a degree. However I believe far more Americans are well informed that you give credit. 20 years ago, maybe, today, not so much. We have the net to thank for that.
And people don't need to look far to see the effects, foreclosed houses in most every neighborhood stand as stark reminders.
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The point of B&B is the longterm effect on culture, which is beyond you. Real fascism is corporate rule, which is why we invested so much in Hitler (Bush, Harriman et al), also beyond you. And your cars of the rich is a straw man, since I spoke of cars of the common person. Come to think of it, one of Hitler's significant legacies was the car for everyone. Kinda like his pal Henry Ford, author of anti-Jewish propaganda.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225177\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Oh, I see. Somehow B&B will have a longterm effect on culture that earlier slapstick comedies never did. As if they were especially poisonous in some miraculous way that the examples I provided were not. Or is that "beyond" you.
Sorry, I'm not buying your corporate evil argument either. Between fascism and communism, close to a hundred million people were purposely murdered by governments in europe and asia during the 20th century. Our current corporations provide products and services, but they don't force you to partake of their offerings at gunpoint, much less go about purposely trying to kill the paying customer (bad for business, you know). If you can't sense the distinction between commerce and murder, well...
Cars of the common person? The common person in this country can buy what he or she likes. That they prefer to purchase things you don't does not prove some kind of corporate malfeasance is responsible for their choices. Been to a car dealer lately? Small economy cars are flying off the lots, while SUVs and trucks just sit there, despite deep discounts. It's called supply and demand.
What would be your suggestion? Besides large manufacturing corporations, who do you suppose is going to be able to design and manufacture more efficient vehicles? Who should be the arbiter of public entertainment? You?
We can have a discussion about facts and ideas, but if you're going to resort to declaring that you have superior powers of perception that entirely negate the views of anyone who disagrees with you, then there isn't much point in chatting, is there?
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However I believe far more Americans are well informed that you give credit. 20 years ago, maybe, today, not so much. We have the net to thank for that.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225185\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Perhaps. It could also be that the net only enables more people to parrot the opinions of their favorite ideologue rather than gain a deeper insight into issues.
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Perhaps. It could also be that the net only enables more people to parrot the opinions of their favorite ideologue rather than gain a deeper insight into issues.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225251\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Anything is possible but I have more faith that people actually seek the truth and will attempt to view all sides of an issue.
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Perhaps. It could also be that the net only enables more people to parrot the opinions of their favorite ideologue rather than gain a deeper insight into issues.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225251\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Exactly right. And, to personalise the point, precisely what happened to me twice on this very LuLa! Some lame-brain plicks up on somebody else´s minor explosion of indignation, misreading, ignorance or whatever, thinks that´s the truth of the matter and raves on without any intention of checking back to basics, only to be echoed and embroidered upon by the next dolt along the line.
I mistrust the internet with a vengeance, using only sites such as this one where I do know something about the subject and can form my own, educated opinions and evaluations of what´s going down.
Rob C
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Oh, I see. Somehow B&B will have a longterm effect on culture that earlier slapstick comedies never did. As if they were especially poisonous in some miraculous way that the examples I provided were not. Or is that "beyond" you.
Sorry, I'm not buying your corporate evil argument either. Between fascism and communism, close to a hundred million people were purposely murdered by governments in europe and asia during the 20th century. Our current corporations provide products and services, but they don't force you to partake of their offerings at gunpoint, much less go about purposely trying to kill the paying customer (bad for business, you know). If you can't sense the distinction between commerce and murder, well...
Cars of the common person? The common person in this country can buy what he or she likes. That they prefer to purchase things you don't does not prove some kind of corporate malfeasance is responsible for their choices. Been to a car dealer lately? Small economy cars are flying off the lots, while SUVs and trucks just sit there, despite deep discounts. It's called supply and demand.
What would be your suggestion? Besides large manufacturing corporations, who do you suppose is going to be able to design and manufacture more efficient vehicles? Who should be the arbiter of public entertainment? You?
We can have a discussion about facts and ideas, but if you're going to resort to declaring that you have superior powers of perception that entirely negate the views of anyone who disagrees with you, then there isn't much point in chatting, is there?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225223\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Of course "they" murdered their people. We're too good to have done that. Your myopic view of history isn't surprising, probably too much Beavis & Butthead. You could try posting actual info as I have instead of useless opinion as you have.
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BTW, for the ignorant out there, when the car mfr's retooled for "more power" instead of better mileage, they couldn't just back up and start all over with efficient all-gas designs. Not a conspiracy, just a fact, for you paranoids out there.
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BTW, for the ignorant out there, when the car mfr's retooled for "more power" instead of better mileage, they couldn't just back up and start all over with efficient all-gas designs. Not a conspiracy, just a fact, for you paranoids out there.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225312\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Baloney. You could have bought a Honda Insight between 2000 and about 2006 that would easily get 65 mpg. Did you? Not very many other people did either, so they stopped selling them. Or, maybe you just have something against hybrid cars or something.
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Of course "they" murdered their people. We're too good to have done that. Your myopic view of history isn't surprising, probably too much Beavis & Butthead. You could try posting actual info as I have instead of useless opinion as you have.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225310\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
See, here's the thing. You're bemoaning the choices lots of other people make. I suppose your contention is that they've all been duped by evil corporations, but in any case, if you're really serious about changing things, you'll either need to take away their choices by force (which I presume you don't want to do), or convince them that you have better ideas. That's going to be pretty hard as long as you freely dole out condescension and insults to people who disagree with you.
I've never watched Beavis & Butthead, not even once. Apparently, not very many other people have for quite some time either, or it would still be in production. But in three or four posts, you've slid to just saying I'm stupid and and that my opinions are useless. Believe it or not, that hasn't done much to make me want to consider your point of view.
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Sheesh this is SO beyond you it’s NOT funny. Once more and maybe this time it will sink in.
The FED makes it OWN decisions. It has a mandate by statue (that’s a LAW in case you don't understand). The ONLY way congress (who makes the laws) can order the FED to do ANYTHING is to create a new law. The Presidents only role is one of appointment, and his appointments span many terms. He can't order the FED to do ANYTHING either. The government does not fund the FED and the actual shares of stock in the FED are MEMBER BANK owned.
So to clear this up for you once and for all (as it seems your repeated trips to wiki and Google are failing you) the "federal" regulators were actually the FED who act for themselves and not the government. The regulations (note there is a regulation and not your mythical "deregulation") require they step in to a seize a failing bank. They then brokered a PRIVATE deal between to private companies. Notice the key word here is PRIVATE. SO to review ONCE again for you. The GOVERNMENT was not involved. The FED was. You got it yet?
And for you final mistake...the FED does not "manage our tax dollars. Congress does that. Give it up. You don't have a clue.
Next time forget wiki and go to the source.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/faq/faqfrs.htm#5 (http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/faq/faqfrs.htm#5)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225107\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You are delusional to think the Fed and your government are mutually exclusive. Read closely my fellow freedom lover.
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Baloney. You could have bought a Honda Insight between 2000 and about 2006 that would easily get 65 mpg. Did you? Not very many other people did either, so they stopped selling them. Or, maybe you just have something against hybrid cars or something.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225316\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Don't you ever read before you post? I plainly said 62mpg with an *all gas* car, not a car with a limited warrantied seven thousand dollar battery.
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See, here's the thing. You're bemoaning the choices lots of other people make. I suppose your contention is that they've all been duped by evil corporations, but in any case, if you're really serious about changing things, you'll either need to take away their choices by force (which I presume you don't want to do), or convince them that you have better ideas. That's going to be pretty hard as long as you freely dole out condescension and insults to people who disagree with you.
I've never watched Beavis & Butthead, not even once. Apparently, not very many other people have for quite some time either, or it would still be in production. But in three or four posts, you've slid to just saying I'm stupid and and that my opinions are useless. Believe it or not, that hasn't done much to make me want to consider your point of view.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225325\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
More disinformation. You don't have reasonable choices. You can't choose the all-gas 62mpg full size car because *nobody* makes it. Why does nobody make it? Because the people are stupid, and the mfr's sold bigger, more expensive cars with a screw-the-future attitude. Do you honestly think that you can evolve from mud slime into a god who knows everything? From your posts, it appears so.
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Don't you ever read before you post? I plainly said 62mpg with an *all gas* car, not a car with a limited warrantied seven thousand dollar battery.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225336\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Right back at you. Read the last sentence of the post.
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More disinformation. You don't have reasonable choices. You can't choose the all-gas 62mpg full size car because *nobody* makes it. Why does nobody make it? Because the people are stupid, and the mfr's sold bigger, more expensive cars with a screw-the-future attitude. Do you honestly think that you can evolve from mud slime into a god who knows everything? From your posts, it appears so.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225339\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Let's see, the thrust of my last post was that you aren't going to influence very many people through insult and condescension, and you just go and lay it on a little deeper. Nice.
At least you have a simple test for others: Anyone who chooses differently than you is stupid mud slime, etc., etc. Very persuasive.
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Right back at you. Read the last sentence of the post.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225349\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm happy that you've made these posts. They are providing excellent whiteboard material for my psych group roundtable discussions.
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You are delusional to think the Fed and your government are mutually exclusive. Read closely my fellow freedom lover.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225331\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Exactly WHERE did I say they were "mutually exclusive"? In fact I was quite clear on the relationship. I'm really sorry your limited knowlege of the subject came back to bite, but thems the breaks.
Perhaps you would be wise to avail yourself of your own advice and learn to read AND comprehend before you post.
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Let's see, the thrust of my last post was that you aren't going to influence very many people through insult and condescension, and you just go and lay it on a little deeper. Nice.
At least you have a simple test for others: Anyone who chooses differently than you is stupid mud slime, etc., etc. Very persuasive.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225351\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I see that you'll regurgitate anything to not lose an argument that you're losing badly. You in your myopia may assume the god-thing is out of left field, but it's a serious challenge. Where is the evidence that you're sentient? You have a lot of anger and hostility, and repressed feelings. But you simply do retorts and knee-jerk responses, and don't provide any real info. I think it's because you've grown up on TV and your mind belongs to the PR firms that make the commercials.
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I see that you'll regurgitate anything to not lose an argument that you're losing badly. You in your myopia may assume the god-thing is out of left field, but it's a serious challenge. Where is the evidence that you're sentient? You have a lot of anger and hostility, and repressed feelings. But you simply do retorts and knee-jerk responses, and don't provide any real info. I think it's because you've grown up on TV and your mind belongs to the PR firms that make the commercials.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225380\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ok, that's it. I've challenged you repeatedly to engage in reasoned discourse, but all you do is throw around accusations and insults, some of which are quite bizarre. I was really hoping to share some ideas you might not have considered, but I can see that sort of thing isn't possible with you. Good luck. I wish you all the best.
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Exactly WHERE did I say they were "mutually exclusive"? In fact I was quite clear on the relationship. I'm really sorry your limited knowlege of the subject came back to bite, but thems the breaks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225363\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well then thats kinda the point isn't!!!
Mutually exclusive - have a look at wiki and you will see a definition moron. The relationship is exactly what it is, a government entity.
You wonder why the world thinks you are all ignorant and arrogant, cause of trolls like you.
I'm done here.
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The bottom line is that the US never forced anyone to buy anything, and the financials making the purchases were quite savvy and knew the risks.[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=224888\")
The risks were packaged up as AAA investments, certified by what had been presumed to be the most reliable sources in the industry at the time (Standard and Poor, Moody's, et al). If the risks were as transparent as you make them out to be, then why was the Secretary of Treasury blindsided and when he gave key member of congress a closed door briefing they were all shocked by the extent of the looming financial catastrophe?
In 03 GW Bush, along with others saw the problem with Freddy and Fanny growing out of control and he wanted to create EVEN MORE regulation to reign them in. Congress said no.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225111\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Congress was controlled by the Republicans at that time; both houses. They rammed plenty of legislation through over the objections of the Democrats, more than once extending the voting deadline until they had enough votes to win.
Current GOP candidate McCain is [a href=\"http://messageboards.aol.com/aol/en_us/articles.php?boardId=455943&articleId=690275&func=5&channel=News]hip deep in lobbyists[/url] who worked for this outcome.
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I live in South Africa and fully expect to feel severe fallout from this crisis. Our local banks bought a slice of the sub prime crisis and that is going to hurt. They were not forced to buy these highly leveraged complex financial instruments, they did it because they thought they would get a good return. You could say it was greed driven. In fact it was all greed driven.
I have lived in the U.S.A, England and Israel. People are the same all over. I don't buy for a moment that Europeans are less greedy and more morally responsible than Americans. It was greed that led to melamine being put in baby food in China, greed that led a well respected European country to sell millions of landmines to African warlords and greed that led to the African warlords using the mines. No country or zone or hemisphere has a patent on greed I'm afraid. It is just what people do.
What is really an indication of successful propaganda is people having a go at each other along nationalistic lines. It means that all is well and we are continuing to buy the rubbish put out by our leaders that it is some other country to blame for our woes while they continue to shaft us.
Anyway i am glad I bought a camera with lots of pixels, it might be my last chance.
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OK folks, this has gone far enough.
This site's purpose isn't political discussions, and there's developed too much personal animosity.
Topic closed.
Michael