Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Landscape & Nature Photography => Topic started by: Dan Sroka on August 18, 2003, 12:30:20 pm
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So the very fact that you are asking the question may indicate you do not have the motivation or confidence.
I disagree with this statement, quite strongly. I was told that many times while I tried to figure out the course of my life, and thank god I never listened. Lack of doubt is not a predetermining factor for artistist ability or eventual success.
There is a myth that artists are born, not made. That they are fueled by some mysterious inner fire (which if you have to ask about, you can't afford). Yet I think this myth is a bunch of hooey. A lot of it is actually from marketing, for most of the 20th century's great artists were in fact amazing marketers (Picasso, Adams, Steiglitz/O'Keefe, etc.). Yes, some artists are born, but many others are made. Some artists look like artists (wear black, live in the Village, hold 3 day jobs to buy paint), and others don't (live in suburbia, have a studio in the garage next to the SUV, and wear Gap). Avoid the stereotypes, and just try to figure out your own path.
Now to your questions. Would you turn a hobby to a profession? I have. I think Hank describes the situation well. Be prepared to loose a hobby. But you may just gain a wonderful new career.
How would I go about it? First, don't fret about equipment. Make sure you have what you need to succeed, but don't blow your safety net on gadgets. That said, don't be afraid to spend money on the consumables of this art: film, ink cartridges, paper, etc. It took me months and months to get over my fear of wasting paper and ink, and realize that I needed to print if I was going to get better.
Then, scope out some time (a year, or two), and focus on jumpstarting your photographic brain. Don't try to show it, or get in galleries, or sell it to publishers during that time -- just get comfortable with the camera, your eye, and your style. You want to learn how you work: when your peak times of the day are, how long you can work before burning out, how much down time you need between projects. This was a big lesson for me. When I first started, I couldn't get going for 6 months... everything I did I hated, and I just procrastinated. But then, suddenly, it all clicked and I worked like crazy for the next 6 months. I've now learned that this is my pattern, so I don't fret if I find myself not shooting for a day, a week, a month -- I learned that it'll come back.
Hope this helps a little.
Dan
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Joe,
My interests are first and foremost fine art landscapes. Is it possible for anyone to make a living just doing fine art?
On the practical side I find commercial photography the most appealing of the others you listed, but since we are talking about a hypothetical career move I'd like to discuss everything from a fine art standpoint. If I'm nuts please tell me so.
Incidently I have no formal training in photography, just been doing it for a long time- since dad built a darkroom in the basement when I was 7.
Hank,
I'm well aware of the importance of record keeping and the tax mans wrath ; ) having owned a succesful business in the past. Of course back then I had an accountant- if I'm going to go it alone perhaps the wife will need to take a few accounting courses! LOL
Jack
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Tony,
I come from a world of pleasing customers- that wouldn't be a difficult transition for me.
Commissions from what kind of work? Gallery?
Is your feeling that stock is a good thing or a bad thing for a new pro to consider? I personally would prefer to stay away from stock- my method of working is not condusive to producing the large volumes of good work that I would think sucessful stock would require.
Thanks for your feedback!
Jack
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Jack, (you meant Joe) I assume you meant "2003 Photographers Market" : )...
That'll teach me to respond to message before my coffee. LOL
Yes, it is, in fact, the 2003 Photographer's Market
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Jack,
<<I come from a world of pleasing customers- that wouldn't be a difficult transition for me.>>
Well that is probably the hardest hurdle already jumped.
<<Commissions from what kind of work? Gallery? >>
I live in the UK where (a) very few people buy photographs to hang on a wall and (b) precious few more buy paintings.
My wife is a painter and regularly has paintings in galleries and exhibitions. She sells a few. Some of her pals sell more. But even the more sucessful ones say that they make most of their money by being commissioned by members of the public who see their work and would like something specially painted for their home.
Yes, there are a few painters who will hold a gallery show every couple of years and totally sell out. But they are in a small minority.
My experience over here is that galleries do not commission. They hang what you present them with and take their percentage.
I have also not made the plunge to money making photographer from enthusiastic amateur. I will. And when I do I will treat the gallery and exhibition as a taster of what I can do - and expect to make the money from being asked to do it.
<<Is your feeling that stock is a good thing or a bad thing for a new pro to consider? I personally would prefer to stay away from stock- my method of working is not condusive to producing the large volumes of good work that I would think sucessful stock would require.>>
If you have an existing portfolio of saleable images I can see no harm in seeing if a stock library wanted to handle some of them. But my understanding of the stock library system is that it is not staffed by lots of inventive people saying, say, go and take us a sequence of shots of youngsters eating ice-cream and we'll use them. I've always thought that the staff are nothing more than filters who accept/reject what they think will sell when you offer it to them.
But others may have a different view on this.
Any help?
Tony
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Dave, I actually already left and have had a wonderful summer off. I took the money and ran! It's been great, I haven't done anything "productive" all summer. Now the question is how do I regain my income four and a half years from now ; ) - one thought is to pursue someething I'm passionate about like photography.
Dan, an excellent metaphor.
Jack
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> Is it possible for anyone to make a living just doing fine art?
Even Ansel Adams did everything from shooting interiors of bars to commercial advertising work. Perhaps others can be more specific about the chance of making a living directly from fine art - the story is usually that you pay the bills and learn the craft doing commerical work, trying to make it as good as you can.
One question no one has raised - how much do you need to meet those family obligations? Is it a realist amount to make from the kind of photography you want to do? This may be where the driven artist comes in. There are folks who make 20-30K doing their art and who are wonderfully happy, trading material success for satisfaction. OTOH, your family responsibilities may not allow that. You might think about changing your lifestyle right now, if necessary, to match what you will likely earn from landscape photography. Could be that your nest egg will last 20 years that way and you will not need to anything more than break even.:-)
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Hypothetical situation- All input greatly appreciated.
You've been shooting for the last 20 years (not as a pro).
You've become extremely well versed in Digital photography techniques.
You enjoy the outdoors, and in particular landscape photography.
If your typical you have another 25 years of work before you retire.
Your burned out in your current career and one day you are offered a "severence" that will last you 5+ years allowing you to enjoy your current lifestyle and beyond without any time constraint other than family.
Questions:
Would you turn your longtime hobby into a career?
If so how would you go about it?
Is 5 years of going it alone enough time to build a strong career in photography?
I know this is a very vague quandry, but thats how I feel right now being in this situation. I don't expect someone to give me the answer that works for me, I just value the input and the perspective of others.
Thanks,
Jack
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Hi Jack,
To be quite frank, people who have the passion to succeed in a given art form, rarely need to ask the question "should I?", "can I?", and "how long will it take?". The do it because they know down deep it is what they have to do.
So the very fact that you are asking the question may indicate you do not have the motivation or confidence. Or perhaps you are just seeking validation or confirmation, which obviously none of us can offer.
I rather imagine you already know the answers to your questions, so any opinions voiced here will be irrelevant. If 100 people responded "don't do it", it would not matter. If you have the passion and dedication to succeed, you would do it anyway!
Just my 2 cents.
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Thanks for the reply's one and all! This is exactly the kind of dialog I was hoping for.
Hank- Great reference story, thanks. Your thoughts are right in line with my feelings.
Joe- I appreciate your candor. I wish I could say that I had something within that would drive me to do this no matter what, but of course I still have a responsibility to my family and must do something that I know I will be able to support them with in the future. In fact, I currently don't feel that strong about any of my ideas I'm considering, but I do know whatever I decide when I decide, I will become successful. Thats just me- it's been my history.
Dan- I agree, I think self doubt is normal (possibly healthy) in any new venture. I also think you hit the head on marketing being a big part of that success. Your experience is very valuable- I'm kind of the same way and in the past have suffered the few months of frustration and that feeling of accomplishing nothing, then suddenly doing a half a years work in a couple weeks time.
You all have helped me get a bit more in touch with my own thoughts. If you have anything to add please do so!
So, what about marketing- what kind of photography has defined your success and how do you market it?
Thanks,
Jack
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First and foremost, don't overlook the imperative for good business management. Remember the rancher who won the lottery and was asked what he would do with all the money: "Well shucks, I guess I'll keep raising cows till it's all gone."
Some photographers make fine livings on modest income while others are perpetually broke with substantially more income. It all boils down to that boring choice between buying a new 1Ds and putting aside money in case something breaks on your car in three months. How's your record keeping? Taxes will eat you alive if you don't keep tabs on all your expenditures. The list goes on and on. I speak from first hand experience because I'm terrible along these lines. Fortunately for me, my wife is an outstanding book keeper and helps me be very logical about expenditures. Darn it all, anyway.
Hank
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Dan,
Checked out your website (excellent btw) and started reading your journal (almost done with year 2000). Our paths are very similar, I'd like to know how it's working out for you after 3 years.
Jack
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Sorry. Double post.
Tony
London UK
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Jack,
I realize that I am in the uncomfortable position of having asked a question, you answered it, but now I do not have a good response for you. That is largely because I don't think I have achieved a level of success that warrants me to give anyone any advice. So I certainly hope michael or some of the others will chime in with more experienced viewpoints. Having said that, let me offer my limited experience.
1. Pick up a copy of the "2003 Writer's Market" by Writer's Digest Books. It has a good bit of info on the various types of photography and how/where you might be able to sell. I'm not sure it's an authoritative reference, but it is a good overview.
2. Find some local galleries and get them interested in your work. You may get a lot of rejections, but hopefully you will get some good feedback along the way. Be prepared to encounter some very snooty people--ignore them on your way to finding the good ones. In my experience, many galleries work in small networks (or at least they seem to talk to each other). After initially getting my work in a local gallery, I got calls from 2 out of state galleries wanting to hang my work.
3. If you really feel you have the "right stuff", with a portfolio of 50-100 killer images, consider finding a "Photo Representative". These are people, much like talent managers, who get a percentage to find a market for your work. But they won't take you as a client unless they feel your stuff will sell. The book mentioned above, and perhaps the WWW are the only resources I know of information on this avenue.
4. Try to find local publishers, or anyone locally, who may be willing to pay for your type of photos. For example, farming, nature, conservancy, or tourism agencies/publications may be good outlets.
5. Depending on your location and tourism traffic, you may want to set up your own gallery. While it's more work and overhead, it does give you a direct connection with clients and you don't have to share profits/commissions.
IMHO, your approach will depend on how you feel about the business and marketing end of things, and how much time you want to spend interacting with clients/public versus actual photography. Either way you go, you may find yourself more involved in the business end of things than you would like,
Jack, please keep in mind that these are just my opinions and experiences from my own very limited perspective of the business. In the end, I have always found that sales of fine art/landscape prints and acceptance by galleries has been unpredictable at best. Generally speaking, you are putting your images out there and hoping for the best. The benefit of galleries or a photo representative are that you are extending your reach and the number of people that have an interest in selling your product.
Hope that helps!
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Doh! Meant to address that last post to Joe not myself!
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Hank is so right about the importance of business management. I now spend nearly half my time just working on the business of my business: website management, order processing, marketing, backups, etc. Sounds bad, but you have to remember: it's a lot more fun when you do this stuff for yourself.
Sounds like a lot of us are in the same stage. I just started selling my work this year, after over year spent just building up a portfolio and discovering what kind of photographer I professionally wanted to be. It's going slowly, but it is moving.
That year+ of self-discovery: I loved shooting all sorts of things as a hobby, but for a business, I decided to focus myself at the beginning, and develop a product. In my opinion, you need to have a definable product that you can create and market. I don't mean a limited number of photos, but a style and subject matter that you work in. You want people to begin to recognize your work and look forward to it. And you want something that will hold your interest for a couple years at least. (Until you begin another project.)
One thing you need to do it set realistic goals. Don't push yourself to be in 10 galleries or making $10,000 by the end of the year. That will just frustrate you. Start small but practical. Goals like: have a business plan set up. Learn how to frame. Approach 5 galleries. Learn how to market my work. Make any money. Etc. Give yourself a lot of time to go the basic grunt work -- it is amazing how much work this all can take.
Joe's got some good advice. I also recommend a book by Caroll Michels called "How to survive and prosper as an artist". While not about photography per se, she discusses galleries, marketing, PR, presentation, all in a solid non-fluffy way.
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LOL! thanks Joe I would definitely save a few spots! Thanks again for the gallery advice. Incidently I was at Borders today and they have the new "2004 Photographers Market" now in stock.
Tx
jack
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Fifteen years ago I quit my engineering job to study professional photography at Brooks Institute in California. I thought I wanted to be a photographer because I enjoyed it as a hobby.
The single most important thing I learned at Brooks was I would rather be an engineer.
After another 12 years of engineering, I learned the moral ethics of corporate America were rotting. So I retired. Now I am a photographer but without the need to earn a living. Photography can be fun, and having fun at work is important. However, "work" might take the fun out of your photography. You will likely need to photogrtahy when you don't want to, you will likely have to photograph what others want you to photograph. That's why it would be work and not play.
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You've taken a big leap!
I find myself in a similar position; early retirement possible in a couple of years, burnt-out and ready for a change. I have begun to get my feet wet in the "semi-pro" scene - a couple of jobs here and there.
My determination to retire will depend on the security of health insurance, and a regular income. I am getting some experience while still employed - no 5-year severance - and a crappy economy to take too large a risk on.
It comes down to confidence and ability. Those who are successful at the business don't have to be the most talented - they have to have the confidence and ability to market and sell what they create. While I don't look forward to the marketing, I know it will be the most important ingredient for success.
I am very interested in your success. Good luck and keep us posted.
steven b. epstein :cool:
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What does everyone think about the idea of buying an existing photo business? It would give immediate cash flow and a customer base, but am I better building my own customer base and not spending the money to aquire one?
Jack,
Earlier in this thread you said:
"My interests are first and foremost fine art landscapes. Is it possible for anyone to make a living just doing fine art?
On the practical side I find commercial photography the most appealing of the others you listed, but since we are talking about a hypothetical career move I'd like to discuss everything from a fine art standpoint. If I'm nuts please tell me so."
Since you are talking about an existing photo business, I assume you mean commercial, portrait, or wedding. But your passion is with landscape/fine art. I would be very concerned that the new business would consume you. Yes, you would have a photo business, and probably succeed at it, but you may not have any time left to pursue the aspect of photography that you really love.
But it all depends (isn't that the answer to everything), if it was a small operation that left plenty of time for your fine art interests, it could certainly help pay the bills and generate some traffic for your landscape gallery.
Just thinking out loud here...
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I thought of a little metaphor for Jack's decision. A hobby is like having a girlfriend (or boyfriend, whatever your situation). You have fun, you go out and do things, you spend money, and there is very little responsibility. Turning a hobby into a career is like getting married. You'll now be with this hobby every day, whether you are in the mood or not. You'll have more responsibilities, more planning, more compromising. But you will also have the opportunity for a deeper and more satisfying relationship.
So, if photography feels more like a feel-good fling, then don't get married to it. But if you feel that it could be "the one", then go for it.
:-)
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Steven- Good luck to you! You are doing it right by slowly stepping in, unfortunately I didn't have the time available to do that, and now I find myself in a position of "5hit or get off the pot"!
Joe, thanks for sharing your experience. Thats a great approach- wives can be incredibly clearheaded when husbands are distracted ; )
What does everyone think about the idea of buying an existing photo business? It would give immediate cash flow and a customer base, but am I better building my own customer base and not spending the money to aquire one?
Thanks,
Jack
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Joe, you have hit the concerns on the head. My fear is the (commercial) business might keep me too busy to do what I like- fine art. Perhaps it's best to go it alone and concentrate on what I enjoy.
Edward, you make a good point- how much of a lifestyle change can I afford to make. I know if I didn't have a family I'd be content with 20-30k yr. I grew up in a poor family and never really missed what I didn't have. I'd like to send my kids to college without it being too big a burden on them or me. Of course the sooner I make a replacement income the less I can afford to make as I will be able to bank more now. Hmmmm. A lot to think about.
Jack
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Long ago I loved to fish so much that I went through a couple of college degrees in fisheries, fishing all the while. Once I graduated I got a job in fisheries, and in short order I quit fishing altogether. It simply wasn't fun to work all day, then play in the same venue. It took several years to rediscover my love of fishing, and it was a long process to learn the distinction between work and fun. Now, even after a full career in fisheries, I still love fishing.
Somewhere along the way I also fell in love with photography and become a serious amateur, then part-time pro. Upon retirement from fisheries I became a full-time pro photographer. Having been through the whole cycle once already, I have not lost my love of photography while going pro, but it took my prior experience and a lot of thoughtful effort to prevent that from happening.
Whether attempting to become a pro is a good answer for you involves a lot of really personal variables, and whether or not you can do it in 5 years involves even more, including local demographics and your willingness to market yourself and your work.
If it were me I would accept the 5 years as a providential gift that would allow me to pursue a dream, but I think I would know the answers to the questions long before the time span expired. In your shoes I would give it your best, but I would also be prepared to pursue another course if it didn't work out, either financially or personally.
Frank talk, but you will have to come up with your own answers based upon a serious study of yourself and the local variables.
Hank
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So, what about marketing- what kind of photography has defined your success and how do you market it?
Jack,
Where do your photographic interests lie? Portaits, commericial, fine art, stock, nature, etc. etc. They each have their own unique marketing strategies.
For example, I do fine art and stock. Fine art fuels my creatvity and stock helps pay the bills. I do virtually no local advertising or promotion unless my work goes into a local gallery. But I have friends who are commercial and wedding photographers who spend a lot of time and money developing clients and drumming up business.
Give us an idea of where you are headed and you get much more reliable and relevant advice.
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In no intended order of importance.
Be sure you are able to enter the world where the customer is always right. For many of us it is a new world and often a very frustrating one.
Be prepared to accept that you are unlikely to sell photographs from exhibitions. Most photographers sell their services and images as the result of commissions. Selling stock shots to libraries is what most people think of first - hence there are a lot of photographers all competing for the same market.
Don't be afraid of offering your services very inexpensively to get started. Building up a portfolio of commissioned work will be your first step. When it looks impressive the next client need never know what the previous clients have paid.
Tony
London UK
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Jack, I assume you meant "2003 Photographers Market" : ) which I already have and have been studying. I appreciate all your advice! The gallery info is great and I never thought of opening my own shop in our local tourist area, but it's a very interesting idea- one I really need to look into. I probably don't have a large enough portfolio for a photo rep but perhaps this would be a good idea as I progress. As for publishing, thats another area I really need to dig into as we have several magazine and book publishers in the area.
I have no fear of the business and marketing end, my previous avocation has taught me most of what I will need. It would be nice to hear from Michael on this as I know he has changed careers many times as well.Thanks for all your input!
Thanks all!
Jack R
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One note about dealing with galleries, I have found that a personal visit is much more effective than submissions by mail. My point being that I would drive 3-4 hours to meet with a gallery owner in person rather than just sending the photos. I think there are two aspects at work here:
1. A one-on-one discussion is much more productive than email and phone calls. Plus you get a chance to visit the gallery and see what they like, and compare the quality of your work. Of course, you are also more likely to get immediate feedback, instead of waiting and wondering if you work made it to the right pile.
2. You can present your photos in the most positive manner. Often galleries will just ask for slides or 8x10 prints, but if you go in person, you can take matted full-size prints that really show off your work. Then leave a package of slides or smaller prints with them.
Again, others may have different experiences, and not every gallery allows it, but IMHO a visit is much more productive than any other type of submission. During a visit where the owner said "I like your work but it's not our style", I have even been given references to other galleries that they felt my want my work. Now I have a name and a referral when calling those galleries. That type of referral has never happened after a rejected mail-in submission.
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The gallery info is great and I never thought of opening my own shop in our local tourist area, but it's a very interesting idea- one I really need to look into.
Hi Jack,
Now when you open your new gallery, I hope you're going to save a little space for some of your old pals (wink wink) here in the LL forum, right?
But seriously, if you live in a tourist area, you might want to consider providing space for other selected photographers. The commissions on sales could help defray your expenses. Or, all though I have never heard of this being done, you charge rent for hanging images with a lowered commission on sales.
Just thinking out loud here.
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Your burned out in your current career and one day you are offered a "severence" that will last you 5+ years allowing you to enjoy your current lifestyle and beyond without any time constraint other than family.
Jack -
If you are burned out, you spend 40+ hours/week in a job you don't enjoy, then take the "money and run." Seriously, I know you have a family and responsibilities, but don't you think you can find another field you enjoy?
Say it takes you 1 year to find that field, then you have 4 years of base wages + wage increases + severance (less 1 year of living expenses).
You tell me:
- Would it be worth it financially? Probably, but not necessarily.
- Would you gain 40+ hours of time back that you will enjoy (either at a new job or with your family)? Probably.
- Does that mean you have to do photography as a career? Nope! That's a different obstacle.
I'd love to have that opportunity. I'd also love a 1Ds. But since I don't have either, I'll be happy for you that you have this opportunity. Good luck!
- Dave
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Hi Jack,
When reading your most recent post tonight, I realized that I was in a very similar situation about 20 years ago. I had always worked for other people and was wrestling with the idea of going into business for myself. My wife came to the rescue with some valuable advice, that for once I was smart enough to follow.
She said you just have to do it and give yourself a chance to succeed. She suggested I choose a starting date and then give myself 6 months in the new career to see if it would work. About 2 weeks later, I got up on a Monday morning and started my new career. I didn't just dabble in it to test the water, nor did I sit around and think about it. I did it. There was nothing to keep me from taking time off whenever I liked, but I did not. I had a business to run and a career to build.
The six month trial date came and went unnoticed, because I had built the business and it was working. I was happier than I had ever been and even making a little money.
So, I would suggest that you pick a date, and on that date you begin your new job as a professional photographer. Order your business cards and get down to business. I've got a suspicion that whatever trial period you set for yourself will go completely unnoticed--you will far too happy and way too busy.
Whatdaya think?