Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: woof75 on August 04, 2008, 04:22:22 pm
-
I have a P21 back and I do have a spare Mamiya body but I don't want to spend out on a spare back so I was thinking of getting a 5D as a backup camera. I remembered a review of Michaels saying he thought the 40D was as good as the 5D and it seems the 450D is as good as the 40D and therefore also the 5D, with regards to IQ that is. Maybe the 450D is the perfect if a little unexpected, backup camera? Am I missing something or can I get away with saving a bunch of cashola?
-
I cannot speak to the 450 or 40 but I can say that the 5D is a tremendous value and is my go to body for anything I can't shoot medium format or film. As to the other bodies, I just do not like squinting through those sub full frame viewfinders.
And as far as the 'next' model 5D people are speculating about... Well I could be very happy to shoot with the current 5D for some time to come.
-
I cannot speak to the 450 or 40 but I can say that the 5D is a tremendous value and is my go to body for anything I can't shoot medium format or film. As to the other bodies, I just do not like squinting through those sub full frame viewfinders.
And as far as the 'next' model 5D people are speculating about... Well I could be very happy to shoot with the current 5D for some time to come.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213048\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, I really like the 5D, I've rented it before but I have never used the 40D or 450D and I do tend to trust michael's reviews. Although it may not stand up to everyday use, just for a backup, matched with the 17-40mm F4 zoom it could be a good and cheap solution rather than buying another expensive back?
-
I've been using the 5D ever since it came out. It's one of the best cameras ever made. If you're shooting MFDB, you don't want to go with a 1.5 cropped sensor like in the 40D if you need to pull it out of the bag as a backup. Stick with a full-frame sensor like the 5D or the 1Ds. For the money though, the 5D is king. I've beat the hell out of mine and used it for all kinds of shoots. It's what I use as a backup although, for a big enough shoot, I'd probably rent another back just to be safe.
John
-
I've been using the 5D ever since it came out. It's one of the best cameras ever made. If you're shooting MFDB, you don't want to go with a 1.5 cropped sensor like in the 40D if you need to pull it out of the bag as a backup. Stick with a full-frame sensor like the 5D or the 1Ds. For the money though, the 5D is king. I've beat the hell out of mine and used it for all kinds of shoots. It's what I use as a backup although, for a big enough shoot, I'd probably rent another back just to be safe.
John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213050\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why wouldn't you use a cropped sensor?
-
Why wouldn't you use a cropped sensor?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213064\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The difference in sensor size between the 450D and the 5D is greater than the difference in sensor size between the 5D and the P21.
If you are using a P21 because of some perceived benefit in image quality attributable to its larger sensor (compared with 35mm), then wouldn't you be more comfortable using a 5D as a back-up? Better still, a 'hot rod' 5D with AA filter removed .
-
I've been using the 5D ever since it came out. It's one of the best cameras ever made. If you're shooting MFDB, you don't want to go with a 1.5 cropped sensor like in the 40D if you need to pull it out of the bag as a backup. Stick with a full-frame sensor like the 5D or the 1Ds. For the money though, the 5D is king. I've beat the hell out of mine and used it for all kinds of shoots. It's what I use as a backup although, for a big enough shoot, I'd probably rent another back just to be safe.
John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213050\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
+1
-
Why wouldn't you use a cropped sensor?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213064\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Think of it this way. Let's say you're shooting a subject with an 80mm lens on MF system with a 1.1 crop. You're ten feet away and you get a nice upper body shot.
If your MF system goes down and you now have to pull out your 5D, you'll probably have to stand about 15 feet away with your 85mm to get a similar shot.
On the other hand, if you have a 40D, you'll have to stand about 20 feet away to get the same shot with an 85mm. (I made these distances up. Perhaps someone can jump in with the actual differences.)
Of course, as you get farther away, your perspective changes which changes the look of your shot. Your other option is to shoot with a wider lens, but that also changes the look of shot. Since the 5D sensor size is closest to MFDB, you'll have the least amount of change if you need to switch from one to the other. Since you're using the small format as a backup, I'd think you'd want to minimize the difference between formats. Hence the 5D.
John
-
PLUS - used 5D's going for $1200USD in my area...I think a new one is only $1899...I still dont like squinting thru it's little viewfinder tho! MF spoil ya for good...
-
Your other option is to shoot with a wider lens, but that also changes the look of shot.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213081\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It shouldn't, as long as you can get the equivalent DoF. One advantage of these miniature, cropped formats like the 450D is that you can use good value, standard lenses, such as the 50/1.8 or 50/1.4, as portrait lenses.
From the same position, a 50/1.4 at F1.4 on the 450D should give you the same look as an 80mm lens on the 5D at F2.25 and a 120mm lens at F3.5 on the P21.
However, I'd be doubtful that the 50/1.4 at full aperture would be sharp enough with such a high resolving sensor as that of the 450D. A lens like the 85/1.2 at F2.25 on the 5D should give more satisfying results, I would deduce, although I've never made the comparison.
-
Think of it this way. Let's say you're shooting a subject with an 80mm lens on MF system with a 1.1 crop. You're ten feet away and you get a nice upper body shot.
If your MF system goes down and you now have to pull out your 5D, you'll probably have to stand about 15 feet away with your 85mm to get a similar shot.
On the other hand, if you have a 40D, you'll have to stand about 20 feet away to get the same shot with an 85mm. (I made these distances up. Perhaps someone can jump in with the actual differences.)
Of course, as you get farther away, your perspective changes which changes the look of your shot. Your other option is to shoot with a wider lens, but that also changes the look of shot. Since the 5D sensor size is closest to MFDB, you'll have the least amount of change if you need to switch from one to the other. Since you're using the small format as a backup, I'd think you'd want to minimize the difference between formats. Hence the 5D.
John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213081\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Here's something not everyone gets, if you're 10 feet away from your subject, it doesn't matter what lens you use the perspective is the same. A wider lens will give you more background, a longer lens less. 10 feet is 10 feet no matter what back, lens etc you use. A 39 mgp back will give you greater resolution, a 16 mgp sensor less. Not to jinx myself but for 5 years I've shot with only one MF back (primarily studio) and haven't lost a shot to equipment. I have a Mk2 that I guess would be my backup but luckily I haven't had to use it in that capacity. Jim
-
anyone got a sensible answer?
-
Here's something not everyone gets, if you're 10 feet away from your subject, it doesn't matter what lens you use the perspective is the same. A wider lens will give you more background, a longer lens less. 10 feet is 10 feet no matter what back, lens etc you use. A 39 mgp back will give you greater resolution, a 16 mgp sensor less. Not to jinx myself but for 5 years I've shot with only one MF back (primarily studio) and haven't lost a shot to equipment. I have a Mk2 that I guess would be my backup but luckily I haven't had to use it in that capacity. Jim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213090\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's all true, but the missing ingredient is DoF. In order to get the required field-of-view from a particular perspective (position), it's necessary to use a different focal length of lens in proportion to format size.
Having done that, we then have to adjust the f stop number to get the same DoF.
-
My opinion on a backup for a MF back would be another MF back. The DSLR's, for me, do not deliver the same quality of image. Jim
-
Let's say you're shooting a subject with an 80mm lens on MF system with a 1.1 crop. You're ten feet away and you get a nice upper body shot.
If your MF system goes down and you now have to pull out your 5D, you'll probably have to stand about 15 feet away with your 85mm to get a similar shot.
On the other hand, if you have a 40D, you'll have to stand about 20 feet away to get the same shot with an 85mm. (I made these distances up. Perhaps someone can jump in with the actual differences.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213081\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
One could instead work at the same distance and get the same FOV and perspective by using appropriately shorter focal lengths; in fact that is probably what most photographers would do: about 50mm with a 5D, about 35mm with a 40D.
For equal minimum DOF options, one would have to go from an 80/2.8 to a 50/2 (or faster) to a 35/1.4.
-
I'd say a 5D would be better simply for the chip size. Before I owned an MFDB I rented and used my 1ds2 as backup. To be honest, the only people who notice the difference in files are the retouchers, and you of course. I find the 5D under lights to be almost indistinguishable from the 1ds2, so a 5D will work fine.
For some perspective, I used to do all my digital shooting on a D2x/D200 combo. Last I checked the big CMYK web presses haven't increased in quality since then. So I think a 40D or whatever should be fine as well.
I have a 5D as backup as well as a propack of Portra 160 NC and a few backs.
-
Of course, there's another missing element to all this. We're all offering Woof75 advice, but we don't know what Canon lenses he owns.
If we assume that Woof75 does not want to spend the money on a second P21 purely for back-up purposes, and is looking at a cheaper alternative, then surely any decision he makes will be influenced by the Canon lenses he already owns.
-
Just got a crzay (and inexpensive) idea. How bout a very inexpensive film back and some (cough cough) film? Could serve in a pinch. Might eventually go out of date, but as a back up it's cheap insurance. Just a thougt.
Paul
-
Just got a crzay (and inexpensive) idea. How bout a very inexpensive film back and some (cough cough) film? Could serve in a pinch. Might eventually go out of date, but as a back up it's cheap insurance. Just a thougt.
Paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213119\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Now, let's be sensible. Film needs a high quality scanner. Does Woof75 possess one?
Michael's own tests have demonstrated that the 1Ds with a slightly lower pixel count than the 5D and definitely higher noise at high ISO than the 5D, is on a par with 6x7cm Velvia film.
-
I have done a few shots side by side : Canon 1Ds Mark III and Hasseblad H1+ P45 and the quality is not that far
I find the Canon a perfect camera as second MF body
-
Hi there,
I use a 450D for editorial works these days, cause I'm still waiting for a D800 or D3x to come out, or maybe just go get a D700 if I can't wait.
About myself, I shoot big assignments with rollei6008II with a dslr as digital polaroid; and for small deals I just use a dslr. I find that mostly a 450D is enough for editorial works, perfect for half page or smaller, and good enough for Full Page, if you take it really careful, I mean shoot carefully to prevent cropping too much in the post; and retouching carefully to prevent lose the details.
The positive part of using a 450d for assingments is that it's light and small, and cost less than perhaps any other choices, and good IQ most of the time, I mean good enough for the clients.
The negative part is that you just don't crop, if you want a kind of composition, shoot it that way, don't wait to crop in the post, cause it loose IQ a lot. If you crop half size of the original, it will be totally unpleasant to enlarge it to magazine full page.
I'll recomend buying a FF body anyway, since you use p21 as your primary gear. dont think about aps-c sized bodys. My experience is that a 450D is not that good as a 5D, especially when you enlarge to a size like double page magazine. In that case the 450d just doesn't work.
oh I forgot to mention, that when your clients see you 450d in your hand and ask if a 5d is good enough as a birthday present for his girlfriend, you are f***d.
I have a P21 back and I do have a spare Mamiya body but I don't want to spend out on a spare back so I was thinking of getting a 5D as a backup camera. I remembered a review of Michaels saying he thought the 40D was as good as the 5D and it seems the 450D is as good as the 40D and therefore also the 5D, with regards to IQ that is. Maybe the 450D is the perfect if a little unexpected, backup camera? Am I missing something or can I get away with saving a bunch of cashola?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213047\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
I have done a few shots side by side : Canon 1Ds Mark III and Hasseblad H1+ P45 and the quality is not that far
I find the Canon a perfect camera as second MF body
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213127\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Me too. Before you go into post the difference is negligible. But during shooting there sure is a difference. And the winnnnnnnaaaaaaaaaah is ....
As regards the 450D, I wonder how it fares with the hi-end Canon lenses? Has anyone ever put an 85/1.2 on it ?
Edmund
-
I only shoot one focal length, 28m so I just buy a 20mm f2.8 prime with the camera and I shoot F11 so DOF and angle of view and distance to model are irrelevant. I hate shooting film so thats not an option. Clients don't care what camera I use one bit. The shooting experience of any canon dslr is going to be more pleasant than a mamiya 645afd so thats not important. I did shoot a 5d recently and it was good enough. The big question is, is the 40D, as michael says, as good as the 5d and, is the 450D as good as the 40D when you?
-
I didn't realise that Michael had already done a field report of the camera, I found this statement to be pretty much sum it up: (XSi is same as 450D)
"Having said that, I find little to fault and much to like in the XSi's files. When working on them in LR while on the road in Newfoundland, alongside files from the 1Ds MKIII, the only way that I could tell them apart was by looking at the EXIF data and file size. Subsequently, in prints up to 13X19" there was little to choose between them other than the ability to crop and not lose too much resolution when working with the 1Ds MKIIIs' larger files."
-
You guys got me curious about the 450; but now I see it uses SD cards and not CF cards. Total deal killer for me. I would not want to buy and have on hand and juggle a whole new group of cards for just a back up camera.
-
You guys got me curious about the 450; but now I see it uses SD cards and not CF cards. Total deal killer for me. I would not want to buy and have to have on hand an juggle a whole new group of cards for just a back up camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213185\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There cheap as chips now you know.
-
You guys got me curious about the 450; but now I see it uses SD cards and not CF cards. Total deal killer for me. I would not want to buy and have to have on hand an juggle a whole new group of cards for just a back up camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213185\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, SD cards are like $17.99 for 2 gigs, $25.00 for 4 gigs, so it shouldn't be a deal breaker.
The viewfinder, now that's a deal breaker.
-
Cost of the SD cards is not the issue. There you are on a shoot, your main system goes down, you have to grab a back up and then go searching in your gear for a different set of entirely different type of cards. Not for me...
-
Well, SD cards are like $17.99 for 2 gigs, $25.00 for 4 gigs, so it shouldn't be a deal breaker.
The viewfinder, now that's a deal breaker.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213187\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
yea, I hear it's better than previous models but not as good as say the 5d. But for a backup camera....
It's funny a 1ds mark 1 used to be unquestionably thought of as being a great camera for professional use for 8000 and now we have something which seems like it's at least the same IQ for only 700 dollars. Thats pretty impressive.
-
yea, I hear it's better than previous models but not as good as say the 5d. But for a backup camera....
It's funny a 1ds mark 1 used to be unquestionably thought of as being a great camera for professional use for 8000 and now we have something which seems like it's at least the same IQ for only 700 dollars. Thats pretty impressive.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213190\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The 1ds is a real camera. Real viewfinder. No shutter lag. Substantial.
-
The 1ds is a real camera. Real viewfinder. No shutter lag. Substantial.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213195\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't think the 1Ds has been outdone yet. Nice look to the files. As long as you treat it as a studio camera, I'd call it a prime unit, not a backup.
Of course, it's obvious that we'll have a $700 5D clone soon. Price divides about 1/2 every 2 years.
Edmund
-
I don't think the 1Ds has been outdone yet. Nice look to the files. As long as you treat it as a studio camera, I'd call it a prime unit, not a backup.
Of course, it's obvious that we'll have a $700 5D clone soon. Price divides about 1/2 every 2 years.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213199\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hey, don't you believe michael when he says that he can't distinguish between the 1ds mark 3 and the 450D/XSi?
-
The 1ds is a real camera. Real viewfinder. No shutter lag. Substantial.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213195\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've never found shutter lag to be a problem on a dslr. Doesn't image quality count for something though? Just because a company tells you a camera is pro or amateur doesn't mean it's so.
-
It shouldn't, as long as you can get the equivalent DoF. One advantage of these miniature, cropped formats like the 450D is that you can use good value, standard lenses, such as the 50/1.8 or 50/1.4, as portrait lenses.
From the same position, a 50/1.4 at F1.4 on the 450D should give you the same look as an 80mm lens on the 5D at F2.25 and a 120mm lens at F3.5 on the P21.
It may give you the same depth of field, but it's not the same shot. The wider lenses are going to give you more background whether you like it or not.
The other thing that's important is that the longer lenses compress the scene more than the shorter lenses. That's important if you're photographing people. A 50mm in close to the subject is going to stretch noses and body parts regardless of what camera it's on. One of the big advantages to larger formats is that you can use longer lenses in closer - which is more flattering to the subject. That, to me, is the essence of "the look" of medium format that people talk about.
John
-
I've never found shutter lag to be a problem on a dslr. Doesn't image quality count for something though? Just because a company tells you a camera is pro or amateur doesn't mean it's so.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213214\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If you are uncomfortable with Canon or any manufacturer telling you how your equipment can be used, just think of it this way: Pro: well built, feature rich; Amateur: badly built, feature poor.
I have a 5D. I've shot a shit load of work with it. I've made a pant-load of money with it. It's still an amateur camera, even though it gets "pro" results. That's not Canon telling me anything about the 5D's intended use as Pro or Not. Its a piece of shit camera with a good chip and a good AF system. I was willing to live with that as a back up to a real camera, like an RZ or a 1ds2, because the IQ is so good.
I feel differently now. I'm sick of crappy cameras. I'm sick of shutter lag, huge tolerances, crappy viewfinders, mirror slap, etc. The main requirement I have of any camera is that I don't have to fight it to get an image. You don't have to fight the 5D, but it does not leave you with a warm and fuzzy while you are shooting. In fact, you don't think you have anything usable because the LCD sucks so bad (better than the Phase + backs, but the blinking highlight warning is only visable on a thumbnail of the image that also shows the retarded histogram which is taken from teh crappy JPEG preview, so you really have no idea what's going on.) The files are a little thin as well and blow highlights right quick.
One advantage the 5D has over the 450 is that it has a rear command dial, while I think the 450 has only the index finger command dial. I could be wrong, but taht's what I remember.
-
I owned a 5D for a while and I loved it, Ill also agree with a few of your points about the lcd previews and the histogram/highlight warning-it's off.
The 1 series cameras are just built so much better though, just find a babied 1ds suck it up and pay the extra couple hundred bucks. It's worth the piece of mind and it's built like a tank.
The viewfinder on the rebel cameras SUCK my friend has an xt and it gives me a headache to look through it, its much worse than the 30d/40d which are not that bad really. Besides, do you really want to walk into a shoot with plastic bodied silver camera that the clients uncle owns? Just get the 1Ds and don't sweat it.
-
Clients dont care what camera I use. I used to shoot the 1ds mark 2 which was a lovely camera to use compared to the 5d but I dont shoot for the pleasure of shooting, I do it to create images and it's the images I care about. For this (i.e. IQ) I found the 5D to be a better camera than the 1ds mark 2 and if I can get something thats as good as a 5D and hence better than a 1ds for 1000 dollars I'll do that.
-
It may give you the same depth of field, but it's not the same shot. The wider lenses are going to give you more background whether you like it or not.
...longer lenses compress the scene more than the shorter lenses ...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213216\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No. FOV and perspective ("compression of the scene") are only tied to a particular focal length when you work with the same format, not when comparing different formats. Adjusting the focal length in proportion to the format size gives the same field of view, and within that FOV, equal subject distance gives the same perspective relationships.
Also, with equal effective aperture diameter (focal length divided by aperture ratio) you get the same OOF effects(*) in every part of the scene. So same DOF, some degree of background blurring, etc.
* Not exactly, but close enough when subject distance is considerably greater than focal length, as in this example.
-
Clients dont care what camera I use. I used to shoot the 1ds mark 2 which was a lovely camera to use compared to the 5d but I dont shoot for the pleasure of shooting, I do it to create images and it's the images I care about. For this (i.e. IQ) I found the 5D to be a better camera than the 1ds mark 2 and if I can get something thats as good as a 5D and hence better than a 1ds for 1000 dollars I'll do that.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213231\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'd still shoot film as a backup.
-
It seems you know what to do, why did you post?
Maybe my 5D has been broken all these years but I got better images out of the 1ds2. Thicker, more DR. Maybe you had a bad ds2, maybe I had a really good one. Maybe its the fact that I felt emotionally connected to that camera because of how it feels in my hands, even its shutter sound is, what, inspiring?
If you really just care about IQ run some film through that Mamiya.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213237\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just seems that where IQ is concerned, which is my primary concern for a back up camera that will get me through the day if my phase went down, the Xsi is as good as or better than the 5D. I haven't heard anything to make me question that. I posted to see if anyone had anything to say to make me question that. I don't work with film. (long boring reasons why)
-
I have a 1Ds3 and after reading Michael's report, I decided to give the XSi a try. When he said he couldn't tell a difference without looking at the EXIF, it really makes me wonder how he was comparing the files. I saw a huge difference. The XSi was quicker to blow-out a sky and shadows were very gritty.
If the XSi file is taken more or less "as is" and not pushed around too much in post, it's probably okay as a back-up camera. I sold the XSi and picked up a 40D. In comparison to the XSi, the 40D doesn't have the same level of pixel sharpness, but the 40D's files are cleaner (than the XSi). High ISO looks better on the 40D too. The 40D is easier to use due to its two control dials, slightly larger viewfinder and rubberized body.
Overall, I think I agree with consensus here that the 5D would be the best choice. Assuming you find a mint condition used one for ~$1500 or so, it's pretty hard to knock it at that price point. The XSi's biggest advantage is its very compact size.
-
I have a 1Ds3 and after reading Michael's report, I decided to give the XSi a try. When he said he couldn't tell a difference without looking at the EXIF, it really makes me wonder how he was comparing the files. I saw a huge difference. The XSi was quicker to blow-out a sky and shadows were very gritty.
If the XSi file is taken more or less "as is" and not pushed around too much in post, it's probably okay as a back-up camera. I sold the XSi and picked up a 40D. In comparison to the XSi, the 40D doesn't have the same level of pixel sharpness, but the 40D's files are cleaner (than the XSi). High ISO looks better on the 40D too. The 40D is easier to use due to its two control dials, slightly larger viewfinder and rubberized body.
Overall, I think I agree with consensus here that the 5D would be the best choice. Assuming you find a mint condition used one for ~$1500 or so, it's pretty hard to knock it at that price point. The XSi's biggest advantage is its very compact size.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213282\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hmm, interesting, why would you pick the 5D over the 40D?
-
I have a P21 back and I do have a spare Mamiya body but I don't want to spend out on a spare back so I was thinking of getting a 5D as a backup camera. I remembered a review of Michaels saying he thought the 40D was as good as the 5D and it seems the 450D is as good as the 40D and therefore also the 5D, with regards to IQ that is. Maybe the 450D is the perfect if a little unexpected, backup camera? Am I missing something or can I get away with saving a bunch of cashola?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213047\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You may consider the upcoming Sony A900. 24MP and Zeiss lenses with AF
-
Hey, don't you believe michael when he says that he can't distinguish between the 1ds mark 3 and the 450D/XSi?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213213\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's a trick question
Edmund
-
Hmm, interesting, why would you pick the 5D over the 40D?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213284\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Bigger sensor, slightly larger files to work with (helpful since youll probably crop to around 4:3)
and a brighter larger viewfinder.
-
Bigger sensor, slightly larger files to work with (helpful since youll probably crop to around 4:3)
and a brighter larger viewfinder.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213323\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Bigger sensor is only useful if it creates better images and thats what I'm trying to figure out. 0.7 extra megapixels doesn't help me that much. Cropping out the edge of the frame thereby losing the worst bit of a lens does though. Brighter larger viewfinder is nice.
-
Bigger sensor is only useful if it creates better images and thats what I'm trying to figure out. 0.7 extra megapixels doesn't help me that much. Cropping out the edge of the frame thereby losing the worst bit of a lens does though. Brighter larger viewfinder is nice.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213364\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually, if you need DOF at low ISO, eg groups, I think you might benefit from one of the smaller sensors.
The 40D might be the right compromise for marriage photographers.
Edmund
-
Actually, if you need DOF at low ISO, eg groups, I think you might benefit from one of the smaller sensors.
The 40D might be the right compromise for marriage photographers.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213371\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Or the 450D?
-
I have a P21 back and I do have a spare Mamiya body but I don't want to spend out on a spare back so I was thinking of getting a 5D as a backup camera. I remembered a review of Michaels saying he thought the 40D was as good as the 5D and it seems the 450D is as good as the 40D and therefore also the 5D, with regards to IQ that is. Maybe the 450D is the perfect if a little unexpected, backup camera? Am I missing something or can I get away with saving a bunch of cashola?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213047\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Obviously the best backup for a digital back is another digital back, if your trying to match the look of sharpness and the same color response.
A lot of people won't do this for cost, or useability.
The Canons are great cameras though matching a p21 to a Canon under most circumstances takes a lot of post work. Maybe it's the AA filter but it does look different, not bad or wrong, just different.
The closest I've seen to match my phase backs is the Lecia, probably because it has a Kodak sensor and doesn't have an AA filter, though obviously it is a much different camera and it doesn't go to high iso very well as anything over 250 starts to get challanged, much like the backs.
Maybe I'm the only person that would like a higher iso back, but I believe there is a big hole in the market for the 5d of digital backs, something like a p21 that goes to 1000 iso.
Even if it's native response started at 400, you could always add nd's in a pinch, but a 400 to 1000 iso back would make that investment more than just something that sits in the case for emergencies only. It would make spending another 10 to 12k worthwhile.
Given all of this there is probably more 5D's in camera bags as backups as any camera.
JR
-
Bigger sensor is only useful if it creates better images and thats what I'm trying to figure out. 0.7 extra megapixels doesn't help me that much. Cropping out the edge of the frame thereby losing the worst bit of a lens does though. Brighter larger viewfinder is nice.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213364\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I prefer working with longer lenses. What works with 50mm on FF requires a 35mm lens on a 1.6x body. Assuming we normalize the FOV, the 35mm lens will have more DOF and less compression. So given a choice, I prefer the larger sensor and the added control over DOF.
-
How about considering just a standard P series back as a back up? A standard P20 with a one year warranty is only $6,990.00 and the P21 is $7,990.00. Take a look at our web site and you can see that even the P25 & P30 @ $12,990.00 and the P45 @ $14,990.00 are all good options for a secondary DB.
http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/promotions/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/promotions/)
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
-
How about considering just a standard P series back as a back up? A standard P20 with a one year warranty is only $6,990.00 and the P21 is $7,990.00. Take a look at our web site and you can see that even the P25 & P30 @ $12,990.00 and the P45 @ $14,990.00 are all good options for a secondary DB.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213439\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As always, helpful information comes from Atlanta.
These guys understand the problem exactly and suggest a solution.
I wonder why the DB guys don't name their Atlanta dealers marketing VPs.
But - I would suggest these guys throw in a spare old body with those deals. That would completely address the backup issue.
Edmund
-
Thanks, not really in the market for spending 8 grand on a just in case back though.
-
Thanks, not really in the market for spending 8 grand on a just in case back though.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213444\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
But then a 5D and a few decent lenses will cost that easily...
-
I prefer working with longer lenses. What works with 50mm on FF requires a 35mm lens on a 1.6x body. Assuming we normalize the FOV, the 35mm lens will have more DOF and less compression. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213419\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Once again no: with those equal FOV focal lengths, one would be working at the same subject distance, and then compression will be the same. Compression is a function of camera position (subject distance) alone.
-
How about considering just a standard P series back as a back up? A standard P20 with a one year warranty is only $6,990.00 and the P21 is $7,990.00. Take a look at our web site and you can see that even the P25 & P30 @ $12,990.00 and the P45 @ $14,990.00 are all good options for a secondary DB.
http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/promotions/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/promotions/)
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213439\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Chris,
Are these prices only for USA residents ?
Best
Pete
-
But then a 5D and a few decent lenses will cost that easily...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213503\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
450D with a 17-40mm F4 is only about 1300 dollars.
-
Compression is a function of camera position (subject distance) alone.
Perhaps, but larger sensors allow you to get closer to your subject and still get it all in. The closer you are, the more compression.
John
-
Rather than keep speculating about it here, why not just buy a 450D and see what it's like? If it's not up to snuff sell it on ebay or give it to your niece. I'm not sure I understand what all the fuss is about (unless it's to continually make a point about how little your clients care about what camera you use?).
-
Maybe we can conclude that the eos450d is a digital camera you could use in an emergancy when your back stops working. it can't be called a back-up since a back-up should have roughly the same spacs as the original. It certainly is a total different camera delivering totally different images, but at least in case of a problem you can keep on shooting.
I myself have always had more then one back: one very recent and a couple of older, 16 and even 6Mp back's. They are inexpensive but nice to use. Most packshot work on the Sinar P2 is done with a 6Mp ( sometimes in multishot). A 16Mp ixpress is backing up the H3dII.
-
Rather than keep speculating about it here, why not just buy a 450D and see what it's like? If it's not up to snuff sell it on ebay or give it to your niece. I'm not sure I understand what all the fuss is about (unless it's to continually make a point about how little your clients care about what camera you use?).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213607\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Keep making the point because people keep saying my client won't like it.
-
Obviously the best backup for a digital back is another digital back, if your trying to match the look of sharpness and the same color response.
A lot of people won't do this for cost, or useability.
The Canons are great cameras though matching a p21 to a Canon under most circumstances takes a lot of post work. Maybe it's the AA filter but it does look different, not bad or wrong, just different.
The closest I've seen to match my phase backs is the Lecia, probably because it has a Kodak sensor and doesn't have an AA filter, though obviously it is a much different camera and it doesn't go to high iso very well as anything over 250 starts to get challanged, much like the backs.
SNIP
Given all of this there is probably more 5D's in camera bags as backups as any camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213402\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well said James, and I agree 100%. Your 3rd point is why I no longer own a 5D. Your 4th point is why my current MF back-up camera is my Leica M8. Not only that, an M8 body, spare batteries, cards and three lenses only takes up two lens compartments in my MF bag!
The other item I usually have nearby is a film back and a few rolls of film...
Cheers,
-
Why wouldn't you use a cropped sensor?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213064\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The viewfinder on the 400 xti drove me crazy. Also your lens choice is more limited with the 1.6x format. Canon 5D is a much better value, better quality, better viewfinder and better lenses.
-
It is a worry, isn't it? All these camera reviews available for free on the internet, yet so much indecision as to which camera to buy for a specific purpose.
I hope I'm not responsible for sowing seeds of doubt in Woof75's mind, regarding the superiority of the P21 compared with FF 35mm.
-
It is a worry, isn't it? All these camera reviews available for free on the internet, yet so much indecision as to which camera to buy for a specific purpose.
I hope I'm not responsible for sowing seeds of doubt in Woof75's mind, regarding the superiority of the P21 compared with FF 35mm.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213673\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No doubt in my mind Ray. Simply covering my ass in case my back goes down in a place where I can't get a rental one quick.
-
No doubt in my mind Ray. Simply covering my ass in case my back goes down in a place where I can't get a rental one quick.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213675\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Good! Then you should appreciate that the reasons why the P21 is better than the FF 35mm are very similar to the reasons why FF 35mm is better than APS-C 450D, excluding the AA issue.
-
Good! Then you should appreciate that the reasons why the P21 is better than the FF 35mm are very similar to the reasons why FF 35mm is better than APS-C 450D, excluding the AA issue.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213678\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How boring. (and predictable)
-
How boring. (and predictable)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213679\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Then you are the troll.
-
If one is shooting MFDB for a living, then I would think any back-up strategy will have to be dependent on a similar platform i.e. another MFDB albeit of slightly lower resolution if cost prohibits. If the back-up system is so far off in terms of technical capability then would it not mean that the photog does not really need that MFDB in the first place?
-
If one is shooting MFDB for a living, then I would think any back-up strategy will have to be dependent on a similar platform i.e. another MFDB albeit of slightly lower resolution if cost prohibits. If the back-up system is so far off in terms of technical capability then would it not mean that the photog does not really need that MFDB in the first place?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213763\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes. I think you are right.
-
i´d get a nikon d700, it supplements the mfdb more than it replaces it. it has good high iso, fast frame rate, fast autofocus, live view, smaller and it might get 99% of the jobs done should your mfdb fail. you can have zoom lenses, fast primes and some pc lenses for it, 35mm has longer and wider lenses. it would give you more options, a mfdb is not always the right tool for every job.
-
i´d get a nikon d700, it supplements the mfdb more than it replaces it. it has good high iso, fast frame rate, fast autofocus, live view, smaller and it might get 99% of the jobs done should your mfdb fail. you can have zoom lenses, fast primes and some pc lenses for it, 35mm has longer and wider lenses. it would give you more options, a mfdb is not always the right tool for every job.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213822\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
When you see the test charts though the 450D is actually if anything a little better than the 700D at 100 ISO which is what I use. I pretty much only use a 28mm (35mm equivalent) lens so ranges of lenses arent' important, I'll just use the 17-40m F4 zoom.
With regard to having MF backup for MF, I do have a back up MF body as they do often go down but the chances of a phase back going down are miniscule, however it can happen and you need to cover yourself if it does. I have used the 5D and although I prefer the look of my DB, a client would be hard pushed to tell a difference so I would feel o.k. using one in a worst case situation.
I tell a difference but it really isn't a big one.
-
If the back-up system is so far off in terms of technical capability then would it not mean that the photog does not really need that MFDB in the first place?
I think it just means that the photog doesn't have or wish to invest an extra $15,000 to $30,000 for a complete backup system. I can think of many other similarly priced investments that offer greater ROI than a backup MF set up. It's all a matter of making things work in a world of limited resources.
Back in the not so old days, I had two MF bodies and a bunch of film backs. I bought a kit with both bodies for a couple of grand. That's a far cry from today where you practically have to spend the down payment on a house to get a MF backup. On the other hand, small format digital has come a long way and it's something I need to have regardless. Although I'd prefer to have MF as a backup, small format can and will work if I need it to.
John
-
So I got the 450D today and so begineth the trials and tribulations, starting with, (drumroll) backfocus. About 1 inch off of the correct place at a distance of 30 inches. (about that) I guess i'll get another body, another lens and compare them all and see if I can come up with a working camera And lens combo. Lucky I live close to B & H eh?