Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: John MacLean on August 04, 2008, 02:57:03 PM

Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: John MacLean on August 04, 2008, 02:57:03 PM
The Eizo (http://www.eizo.com/products/graphics/cg222w/index.asp) is 4" smaller than the NEC (http://www.necdisplay.com/Products/Product/?Product=LCD2690WUXi-BK), but is the display better?

Thanks,
John
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: John MacLean on August 12, 2008, 06:43:40 PM
anyone?
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: tho_mas on August 12, 2008, 07:44:13 PM
Quote
anyone?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214681\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Don't know which version of the NEC is available in the USA... you should check if the NEC can do hardware calibration. If not the Eizo would be the better choice.
Too, there are reports the NEC can't adjust a luminance level less than 140cd/qm. If that is too bright for you... the Eizo would be the better choice.
Beside this both are quite good displays.
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: dkeyes on August 13, 2008, 03:41:10 PM
Quote
Don't know which version of the NEC is available in the USA... you should check if the NEC can do hardware calibration. If not the Eizo would be the better choice.
Too, there are reports the NEC can't adjust a luminance level less than 140cd/qm. If that is too bright for you... the Eizo would be the better choice.
Beside this both are quite good displays.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214688\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have the 2690 and after calibrating with brightness turned all the way down, I was able to get the luminance to 120 (according to my Eye1 stats). I haven't compared it directly with an Eizo but I'm very happy with the performance of this monitor after switching from my Lacie Electron22 IV crt.
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: John MacLean on August 13, 2008, 06:20:31 PM
Thanks so far.

I have a friend with the NEC, SV software, and an Eye One. It looks good, but I was wondering if any of the guru's like Jeff, Andrew or Michael have any side by side experience?

John
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Morris Taub on August 13, 2008, 06:54:28 PM
Quote
Thanks so far.

I have a friend with the NEC, SV software, and an Eye One. It looks good, but I was wondering if any of the guru's like Jeff, Andrew or Michael have any side by side experience?

John
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214880\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just reading...interested in this thread...wish i could be of some help John...I need to buy a monitor soon and was leaning toward the eizo here in france for 1269 euros...I can't buy the NEC 2490wuxi here, it isn't available...if it was I might purchase that...aahhh, decisions...

M

hmmm, one thing i read, of course this doesn't compare the monitor images...for the NEC you need the spectraview software/hardware package to adjust it fully, i think that means adjusting the hardware of the screen itself...LUT's?...(i'm not clear on this exactly)...the Eizo cg222w doesn't force you to buy the whole package...you can have your own puck say and software and it should do what the spectraview ll stuff does...at least from my reading on it I think this is the case...someone correct me if i'm wrong, please...
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: John MacLean on August 13, 2008, 07:04:56 PM
Quote
Just reading...interested in this thread...wish i could be of some help John...I need to buy a monitor soon and was leaning toward the eizo here in france for 1269 euros...I can't buy the NEC 2490wuxi here, it isn't available...if it was I might purchase that...aahhh, decisions...

M

hmmm, one thing i read, of course this doesn't compare the monitor images...for the NEC you need the spectraview software/hardware package to adjust it fully, i think that means adjusting the hardware of the screen itself...LUT's?...(i'm not clear on this exactly)...the Eizo cg222w doesn't force you to buy the whole package...you can have your own puck say and software and it should do what the spectraview ll stuff does...at least from my reading on it I think this is the case...someone correct me if i'm wrong, please...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214887\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I have an Eye One Photo/spectrophotometer so if I got the NEC and SV software I'm good to go. If I got the Eizo I could just use Eye One Match software.

According to Andrew Rodney the SV software provides a higher quality calibration than i1 Match. But that isn't too shabby either!
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: tho_mas on August 13, 2008, 09:28:54 PM
Quote
If I got the Eizo I could just use Eye One Match software.
no. Eizos Color Navigator 5.1 is included and supports your probe. The software is really very good.
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: dkeyes on August 14, 2008, 01:59:09 PM
Quote
I have an Eye One Photo/spectrophotometer so if I got the NEC and SV software I'm good to go. If I got the Eizo I could just use Eye One Match software.

According to Andrew Rodney the SV software provides a higher quality calibration than i1 Match. But that isn't too shabby either!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214891\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have an Eye One Display2 and hit my specs exactly (gamma, luminance, etc) without the SV software. Don't know how the SV software can add anything quality wise. All it does is make the calibration easier by not having to do any hardware adjustments (ie. turning down brightness, etc.)
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Morris Taub on August 14, 2008, 06:08:30 PM
Quote
no. Eizos Color Navigator 5.1 is included and supports your probe. The software is really very good.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=214920\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

yes, that's what I read...I can use my eye one puck with eizo's software and it'll do what the spectra stuff does for NEC monitors...still doin' some reading, research, but these days i'm leaning toward this CG222W from Eizo...still read good things about the apple 23" displays despite their age and some criticism here and there about quality control problems...

I just won't spend the bucks here for the 2690 and spectraview ll package (there's also the sean ried piece on wide gamut monitors and karl lang's advice against them right now)...list price for the NEC monitor alone is 1,126 euros...it's 1,559 euros with spectraview ll...over four hundred euros...no thanks...it's even more obscene for the 2190uxi with and without spectraview...814 without and a whopping 1,513 with sv ll...just ridiculous...NEC france, just nuts...

Doesn't seem like there's anyone around here with CG222w monitor experience...

M
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: tho_mas on August 14, 2008, 06:21:03 PM
Quote
Doesn't seem like there's anyone around here with CG222w monitor experience...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215072\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've got the CG241W and as they both have the same panels I think the 24'' is just bigger. So I can tell you a lot about this display... but not that much about the NEC.


Quote
there's also ... karl lang's advice against them right now
But you know that the CG222W has a wide gamut, too?! But I do not share his opion about that topic. Everything works quite perfect with wide gamut displays in a color managed workflow.
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: peteh on August 15, 2008, 06:03:21 PM
Quote
I've got the CG241W and as they both have the same panels I think the 24'' is just bigger. So I can tell you a lot about this display... but not that much about the NEC.
 But you know that the CG222W has a wide gamut, too?! But I do not share his opion about that topic. Everything works quite perfect with wide gamut displays in a color managed workflow.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215073\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm VERY happy with my 2690 and spectraview and eye one.Why spend that much more for the EIZO?
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Morris Taub on August 15, 2008, 06:23:53 PM
Quote
I've got the CG241W and as they both have the same panels I think the 24'' is just bigger. So I can tell you a lot about this display... but not that much about the NEC.
 But you know that the CG222W has a wide gamut, too?! But I do not share his opion about that topic. Everything works quite perfect with wide gamut displays in a color managed workflow.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215073\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

yes, the cg222w is also wide gamut, why i'm hesitant...i can't really argue with you or anyone about the facts pro and con about why wide gamut is not the best choice today...i'm just reading and quoting...but karl lang's an authority so i'm paying attention...I think sean reid also knows what he's talkin' about...

if i had some hands on experience maybe i could agree or not...workin' blind here...sad to say...buying an expensive monitor for color work, b&w work, and choosing based on other peoples language/logic/feel...it isn't making me happy...but sometimes I find myself making a decision without the best info at hand...it's life...

now, if only someone would open a monitor shop near my home and display all these monitors and i could walk in with some of my work and compare it on three or four different monitors i'd be a happy camper...

M
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: tho_mas on August 15, 2008, 06:33:17 PM
Quote
...[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215345\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Isn't there any printing or design company nearby? So that you can take a look?
The key arguments were - if I remember correctly (read K. Langs article one year ago... do not remember everything) - that the steps in tonalvalues are too big so that you cannot adjust very smooth transitions. Is that right? And is that one of the arguments you are afraid of?
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Morris Taub on August 15, 2008, 06:33:34 PM
Quote
I'm VERY happy with my 2690 and spectraview and eye one.Why spend that much more for the EIZO?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215340\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

here in France the NEC with spectraview ll is like between 1750 and 1860 euros with tax included, the eizo is 1232 (checked the prices today here in France) and I don't need to buy software, I already have an eye one puck...so i'm good to go...yes, the eizo is smaller but i was happy with my old monitor and this eizo would be somewhat bigger, 22" would do me good...i personally don't need 26"...maybe in a few years when they come down in price and i have more desk space  

M
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Morris Taub on August 16, 2008, 01:14:03 PM
Quote
The Eizo (http://www.eizo.com/products/graphics/cg222w/index.asp) is 4" smaller than the NEC (http://www.necdisplay.com/Products/Product/?Product=LCD2690WUXi-BK), but is the display better?

Thanks,
John
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=213033\")

John, I found this site today via a thread on the Fred Miranda site, never heard of them before, but this guy talks about the NEC and the CG222W...thought you might find this interesting...

also, I found conflicting info on the panel for the cg222w...one german site says it's pva another says it's s-ips...now I wonder...

kind regards...

M

[a href=\"http://www.shootsmarter.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=286&acat=16]http://www.shootsmarter.com/index.php?opti...&id=286&acat=16[/url]shootsmarter monitor suggestions (http://www.shootsmarter.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=286&acat=16)
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Morris Taub on August 16, 2008, 01:22:18 PM
Quote
Isn't there any printing or design company nearby? So that you can take a look?
The key arguments were - if I remember correctly (read K. Langs article one year ago... do not remember everything) - that the steps in tonalvalues are too big so that you cannot adjust very smooth transitions. Is that right? And is that one of the arguments you are afraid of?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215346\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi tho_mas...you know, that's exactly what my wife suggested...go to a design studio around here, see what they're using...but right now it's mid august, the south of france, everyone is on vacation...there is a small design studio near here, i'll try and to them, see what they use...but i'll have to wait a week or so...seems like france just shuts down in august and everyone goes on vacation...

and then, who knows what the hell they're using...maybe sony artisans or something...

I'll go through the article again, but if i remember right it's the difference between what the wide gamut monitors work with, 10, 12 bit...and the reality of the pipeline...photoshop, video card, printers...all 8 bit...i've got to check this again...

but in reading i got the feel that the two were not jiving in terms of real world 4 color press print and inkjet printers...like what i'd see on the screen of a wide gamut monitor would detail more shadow, color etc, but it wouldn't be representative of what the final product would be...

more later...

M
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: tho_mas on August 16, 2008, 06:48:19 PM
Quote
I'll go through the article again, but if i remember right it's the difference between what the wide gamut monitors work with, 10, 12 bit...and the reality of the pipeline...photoshop, video card, printers...all 8 bit...i've got to check this again...[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215502\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The DVI connection is 8bit, right. But the display (the CG222W) has internal 16bit processing.
If you create a smooth gradation from black to white in 16bit in Photoshop in a gamma different from that of the display (say the display is set to gamma 2.2 and the gradation is made in gamma 1.8) you may not see any banding. If you switch the gradation to 8bit you suddenly see more banding. Why that? How can the display can take notice of the 8bit switch in Photoshop when the image is sent through the 8bit DVI chanel? The display re-calculates all the colors. I'm no technician I don't how it works but it works fine. As the CG222W has 12bit LUT and 16bit processing that will be fine.

Quote
but in reading i got the feel that the two were not jiving in terms of real world 4 color press print and inkjet printers...like what i'd see on the screen of a wide gamut monitor would detail more shadow, color etc, but it wouldn't be representative of what the final product would be...
Actually it's the opposite. Printer gamuts are bigger than sRGB. And Wide Gamut Displays can show much more of the printable colors.
When I eye up prints in a lightbox under D50 lighting conditions side by side to the display... the results are dead on match. Luminance, contrast/gradation, colors... it's just fine. No problem here. Not as long as I use photographic or coated papers.

On the other hand: there is a difference to a sRGB display in adjustments. Smaller image adjustments lead to heftier differences. But I think this is just because the display is accurate linearised and especially the dark tonalvalues are displayed much better as on a CRT. Too, on a display with smaller gamut (sRGB) a big part of the modulation in colors is clipped as sRGB is simply not able to show them. And the wide gamut display will show these modulations.
So you use to get used to it. But you will.

Quote
and then, who knows what the hell they're using...maybe sony artisans or something...
as long as someone has a wide gamut display this will give you a good impression.
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: mbalensiefer on August 17, 2008, 12:18:17 AM
I just wrote Eizo to see when their next upgrade cycle is, and I specifically mentioned the failure of the many (new LED) displays that use this tech to calibrate correctly.

I think that the new calibration devices should also have an "LED" setting, as the flourescent tube displays don't calibrate the same as these.
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Morris Taub on August 17, 2008, 01:45:49 AM
Quote
Isn't there any printing or design company nearby? So that you can take a look?
The key arguments were - if I remember correctly (read K. Langs article one year ago... do not remember everything) - that the steps in tonalvalues are too big so that you cannot adjust very smooth transitions. Is that right? And is that one of the arguments you are afraid of?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=215346\")

here ya go tho_mas...found this on the betterlight forum, but it says it was actually taken from the luminous-landscape forum  

and so yes, harder to make color corrections with these tone values, the bigger steps, or the difference between the monitor and the pipeline used...

this dates back to 2006 but in terms of pipeline for bits the info is still true today, at least that's what Sean Reid says in his recent article on the NEC 2490wuxi...


"1) A wide gamut LCD display is not a good thing for most (95%) of high
end users. The data that leaves your graphic card and travels over the
DVI cable is 8 bit per component. You can't change this. The OS, ICC
CMMs, the graphic card, the DVI spec, and Photoshop will all have to be
upgraded before this will change and that's going to take a while. What
does this mean to you? It means that when you send RGB data to a wide
gamut display the colorimetric distance between any two colors is much
larger. As an example, lets say you have two adjacent color patches one
is 230,240,200 and the patch next to it is 230,241,200. On a standard
LCD or CRT those two colors may be around .8 Delta E apart. On an Adobe
RGB display those colors might be 2 Delta E apart on an ECI RGB display
this could be as high as 4 delta E.

It's very nice to be able to display all kinds of saturated colors you
may never use in your photographs, however if the smallest visible
adjustment you can make to a skin tone is 4 delta E you will become
very frustrated very quickly.

2) More bits in the display does not fix this problem. 10 bit LUTs, 14
Bit 3D LUTs, 10 bit column drivers, time-domain bits, none of these
technologies will solve problem 1. Until the path from photoshop to the
pixel is at least 10 bits the whole way, I advise sticking to a display
with something close to ColorMatch or sRGB.

3) Unless the display has "TRUE 10 bit or greater 1D LUTs that are
8-10-10" user front panel controls for color temp, blacklevel and gamma
are useless for calibration and can in fact make things worse. An
8-10-8 3D LUT will not hurt things and can help achieve a fixed
contrast ratio which is a good thing.

Only Mitsubishi/NEC displays with "GammaComp" have 8-10-8 3D LUTs at
this time. Some Samsung displays may have this I don't test many of
their panels as the performance in other areas has been lacking.

Only the Eizo 210, 220 and NEC2180WG have 8-10-10 paths. If you really
want to know... the path in the Eizo is "8-14bit3D-8-10bit1D-10" go
figure that one out ;-) The 2180WG has an actual 10 bit DVI interface
with a 10-10-10 path but nothing supports it so you can't use it yet -
but for $6500 your ready when it does ;-)

4) The testing methodology for the seybold report article was very
poor. It demonstrates the authors complete lack of understanding with
regards to LCD calibration. At some point I may write a full rebuttal.
As an example the fact that Apple's display has no controls other than
backlight is actually a very good thing for an 8-8-8 LCD if your going
to use calibration. Apple optimizes the factory LUTs so as to provide
the most individual colors. smooth greyscale and the least loss. Then
the calibration is done in the graphic card LUT. As these are all 8 bit
it's best if the user does not mess with the display LUTs at all.
Overall Lab to Lab Delta E of 23 patches is a very poor metric to
evaluate a display. It completely leaves out many areas of color space
(the tool they used is designed to make the colorimeter look good so
tuff patches are not included) contrast ratio, stability, aging,
greyscale performance and other important considerations.

Many people ask for my recommendations. I am not happy with anything we
have right now. That said I can evaluate what there is.

Price performance wise the great bargain is the NEC 1980SXI BK the
price/vs colorimetric performance of this display can't be beat. The
2180ux Is a great display at a reasonable but high end price.

In the mid-high wide screen I like the Apple and the SONY. Reject the
display if uniformity is bad and make sure whomever you buy it from
will exchange it.

The Eizo 210 is great if you can justify the current cost. Give it two
years and most high-end displays should perform at this level. 220 is a
great display but suffers from all the downfalls of any wide gamut
display.

There is no reason to buy the La Cie 321 it's just an NEC with their
label on it and an extra $400.

The Monaco Optix XR is the best colorimeter for LCDs at this time.

These are my personal opinions.

Karl Lang"
End quote

The Seybold report that Karl Lang is referring to:
[a href=\"http://www.lb-ag.ch/news/digital/Quato/Intelliproof/seyboldreport.pdf]http://www.lb-ag.ch/news/digital/Quato/Int...yboldreport.pdf[/url]

Reply by Andrew Rodney:
"When Karl talks displays, best to listen. He's the father of both the original PressView, ColorMatch RGB and the Artisan."
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: tho_mas on August 17, 2008, 06:12:40 AM
Quote
here ya go tho_mas...found this on the betterlight forum, but it says it was actually taken from the luminous-landscape forum  [{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=215605\")
this one? -> [a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=9613]http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=9613[/url]

Quote
and so yes, harder to make color corrections with these tone values, the bigger steps, or the difference between the monitor and the pipeline used...

Quote
As an example, lets say you have two adjacent color patches one
is 230,240,200 and the patch next to it is 230,241,200. On a standard
LCD or CRT those two colors may be around .8 Delta E apart. On an Adobe
RGB display those colors might be 2 Delta E apart on an ECI RGB display
this could be as high as 4 delta E.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215605\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
4 DeltaE?. DeltaE in these two cases is less than 2 and only as Lab values are based on integer values. Too, I can not see any difference on the display in this example neither in ECI RGB (V2) nor in AdobeRGB nor in my MonitorRGB. I think the irritating thing here is that he's only referring to RGB values of the image. But the RGB values of the image are not the trigger values for the display - in a color managed workflow the RGB values will not be sent direct to display. They will be transformed before (namely relative colormetric).
Beside this... what is the better choice? To adjust wide gamut images on a sRGB display and being blind for the out of gamut colors? Or to adjust the images on a display that covers the entire (at least a huge part of the) printer profile?

If you are afraid of too crass steps in tonalvalues... make the adjsutments on layers and set opacity of the layers to 50% or something :-) ... but again, this is not going to happen.
Thomas
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: mbalensiefer on August 17, 2008, 11:51:45 PM
Ha! I KNEW that Monaco had the better calibrator...
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: David Mantripp on August 18, 2008, 02:44:53 PM
If I could just chip in on this discussion, which I've been following closely, since I'm also monitor shopping, with this question -

Is there any difference apart from pixel pitch between the Nec 2490 & 2690 ?  I currently have a 1st generation Apple Cinema Display, which has larger pixels than, say, the current Apple monitors. Personally I prefer this, and have got a Samsung 26" LCD for general work.

I've read some opinion that finer pitch is better for evaluating sharpness, but I can't really see that myself.  Finer pitch just means you need to have your face closer to the screen....
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Morris Taub on August 18, 2008, 04:52:42 PM
Quote
John, I found this site today via a thread on the Fred Miranda site, never heard of them before, but this guy talks about the NEC and the CG222W...thought you might find this interesting...

also, I found conflicting info on the panel for the cg222w...one german site says it's pva another says it's s-ips...now I wonder...

kind regards...

M

http://www.shootsmarter.com/index.php?opti...&id=286&acat=16 (http://www.shootsmarter.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=286&acat=16)shootsmarter monitor suggestions (http://www.shootsmarter.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=286&acat=16)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215499\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

ok, so I'm replying to myself which kind of makes me feel neurotic...but i wrote to eizo and here's the response :

"It is an S-PVA type. This panel has large color space, really accurate additive color mixture, and more. Viewing angle is not its strongest suit, but it is very popular with photographers thus far. It may be restrictive for collaborative viewing with multiple  color critical users.
However,
See this great review for more details!"

he's referring to the shootsmarter article...then i mentioned how until now I've always read that ips was better overall quality than pva, and he responded...

"A year ago, I was still touting the S-IPS monitors as the best in the world. The CG19, 211, and 221 still have the best general performance of all Eizo panels. However,
 In the past year we have seen the beginning of a transformation. The companies who traditionally make IPS (NEC, Mitsubishi, Hitachi, LG) have no progressive roadmap for the future. It Is my opinion the LG quality is that strong either. The improvement is coming from S-PVA as is  the technical roadmap. So, the new PVA units we have excel in several categories. I have been quoted as saying the PVAs while from some perspective are not my very best monitor, but they are my best package-all things considered. Eizos choice seems to be PVA as we go forward (with a few exceptions), and I am fully behind this choice given the panels that are out there. It will be hard to find IPS from major quality manufacturers like Hitachi in the future."

So, I'm gonna do a bit more research/reading...i mean i have to admit, the color, detail, overall quality of the LaCie 324 I saw a few weeks ago was very nice and it has a pva panel...

M
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Czornyj on August 18, 2008, 05:34:12 PM
Quote
See this great review for more details!"

he's referring to the shootsmarter article...
OMG...

Quote
In the past year we have seen the beginning of a transformation (blah, blah, blah) So, the new PVA units we have excel in several categories.
I bet they excel in price category.
In the beginning, IPS panels disappeared from the notebooks. Now it seems they start to disappear from the graphics monitors. If there's a trend here, I don't like it....
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: digitaldog on August 18, 2008, 05:41:20 PM
The best advise I can give about any hardware review (well at least color management and displays) on Smartshooter is to ignore it. Its absolute crap.
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Morris Taub on August 18, 2008, 05:49:04 PM
Quote
OMG...
I bet they excel in price category.
In the beginning, IPS panels disappeared from the notebooks. Now it seems they start to disappear from the graphics monitors. If there's a trend here, I don't like it....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215868\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

ok, a salesman hawking his wares...maybe the photographer who writes the great review is his cousin, I don't know...

did laptops really have ips panels?...you pullin' my leg?...

so...czornyj...enlighten us please...are pva panels poopoo?...

i admit i'm skeptical of pva panels after all i've read...makes me want to just put my money down on the old apple monitor, buy it close to home, if there's a problem I walk it in, no fuss, no muss and be done with it, i'm tired of the research,...i've heard people on both sides about Apple monitors, happy, not happy...jeff schewe, in the recent lightroom video says he uses two 30" apples, i think he said that...plus a wide gamut nec...maybe he has a cousin related to steve?...

M
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Morris Taub on August 18, 2008, 05:54:51 PM
Quote
The best advise I can give about any hardware review (well at least color management and displays) on Smartshooter is to ignore it. Its absolute crap.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215870\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Andrew...would you say the same about pva panels?...stay away if i'm doin' graphic design (4 color presses), photography, (mix of inkjet and 4c press)?...

It does seem that reputable people are saying s-ips panel monitors are the way to go...

However I still kinda like that LaCie 324 I saw...it had this good neutral quality to it, but it was compared to a 24" imac, glossy screen, in an Apple store so the lighting was quite bright, not my studio lighting...

I'm starting to feel a little confused...maybe too much info, oversaturated...maybe i just need some sleep...

M

ps. I am still considering a 2190uxi (no spectraview because they want like 700 euros extra for it here in France) and just calibrating with my eye one display two software/puck...can get this monitor for around 900 euros off amazon.fr...
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: tho_mas on August 18, 2008, 06:02:51 PM
Quote
ok, so I'm replying to myself
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215856\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Accidentally skipped the question IPS vs. S-PVA... sorry.
The panels are... close! From my point of view. S-PVA is faster (Video) and basically has lower black.
Viewing angle of S-PVA might be slightly better with regard to contrast while IPS is better with regard to colors. That is what I have seen by now.
Recently did a private workshop and the guy has the CG221 and the NEC 21SV Reference. Both IPS. These monsters have a bloody perfect homogenity.
But the viewing angle... to be honest this would not be the argument pro or con IPS for me personally. The CG221 might be slightly better in this case as the CG241W. The NEC is not - if you move your head 20 centimeters white becomes yellowish.
That's all perfect! But as perfect as it can be as there are always some limitations.
I would not worry about that too much.
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Czornyj on August 18, 2008, 06:42:39 PM
Quote
did laptops really have ips panels?...you pullin' my leg?...
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/TFT_display (http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/TFT_display)

Quote
Viewing angle of S-PVA might be slightly better with regard to contrast while IPS is better with regard to colors. That is what I have seen by now.

I multiplied monitor calibration chart from that page:
http://www.aim-dtp.net/aim/evaluation/gamma_space/index.htm (http://www.aim-dtp.net/aim/evaluation/gamma_space/index.htm)

21" IPS panel:
(http://members.chello.pl/m.kaluza/ips1.jpg)
(http://members.chello.pl/m.kaluza/ips2.jpg)

21" PVA panel:
(http://members.chello.pl/m.kaluza/pva1.jpg)
(http://members.chello.pl/m.kaluza/pva2.jpg)
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: tho_mas on August 18, 2008, 06:47:16 PM
Quote
I multiplied monitor calibration chart from that page
And what do  the photos show from your point of view??
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Czornyj on August 18, 2008, 06:49:02 PM
Quote
And what do  the photos show from your point of view??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215885\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

They show the change of contrast in the function of angle on a PVA panel
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: tho_mas on August 18, 2008, 06:51:15 PM
Quote
They show the change of contrast in the function of angle on a PVA panel
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215886\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
ah, okay. Makes sense.
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Morris Taub on August 18, 2008, 07:15:41 PM
Quote
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/TFT_display (http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/TFT_display)
I multiplied monitor calibration chart from that page:
http://www.aim-dtp.net/aim/evaluation/gamma_space/index.htm (http://www.aim-dtp.net/aim/evaluation/gamma_space/index.htm)

21" IPS panel:
(http://members.chello.pl/m.kaluza/ips1.jpg)
(http://members.chello.pl/m.kaluza/ips2.jpg)

21" PVA panel:
(http://members.chello.pl/m.kaluza/pva1.jpg)
(http://members.chello.pl/m.kaluza/pva2.jpg)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215883\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

thanks czornyj...even the head on image shows color weirdness, color bars/panels, in the pva panel...can i ask, what monitors are these images on please?...
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: tho_mas on August 18, 2008, 07:25:16 PM
Quote
thanks czornyj...even the head on image shows color weirdness, color bars/panels, in the pva panel...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215890\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
no. The fist image just shows that the display is not matched to the right gamma curve.
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Morris Taub on August 18, 2008, 07:33:26 PM
Quote
no. The fist image just shows that the display is not matched to the right gamma curve.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215891\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

alright, I don't understand...what are you showing here?...I mean it seems like a point about ips and pva panels where the pva panel is not showing smooth gradations head on or at an angle...is this wrong?...

I mean you say they show change of contrast in function of angle on the pva...i see it...but I guess i don't understand your point...if the pva monitor had a correct gamma curve would it be as smooth as the ips example?...

also, didn't know about the thinkpad panels...thanks for the link...
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: tho_mas on August 18, 2008, 07:57:23 PM
Quote
alright, I don't understand...what are you showing here?...I mean it seems like a point about ips and pva panels where the pva panel is not showing smooth gradations head on or at an angle...is this wrong?...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215893\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think in the straight picture you should not see any color effects or something if the display is calibrated good enough.
The next question is how much of these effects you will see in a side angle.
I don't know. I don't look that much on test charts. After calibration I check some black to white gradtions in Photoshop just to see if there is any issue with calibration curve and that's it. I see some issues on S-PVA but I do see others on IPS. There is no display that is perfect.
Above all: we are talking about deviations in a range that are smaller as if you look at the picture on the display with the left or the right eye. Much more essential ist that the calibration is good - and it is never good out of the box - and the viewing conditions are as good as possible. After all these things ... you can think about a certain color shift in a viewing angle you never would sit in front of the display. I have no clients next beside me. So I sit in the middle of the display and that's fine.
When I decided to buy a new display I worried much about these things, too. So I understand what it is all about for you. But I asked some experienced people and none of them - none! - said take IPS or take S-PVA. They always were talking about a particular display with a particular panel and particular issues. You can buy a CG221... do you think it's "perfect"? Far from it. You have to get used to the details this one is doing maybe not as good as a certain other panel. But the other panel is better in something else. And than... the price. If I would invest around 1.000 I would of course take the display with hardware calibration. Either way if it is IPS or S-PVA. That's how I see things.
But I know this make things not that much easier for you ... sorry ;-)
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Morris Taub on August 18, 2008, 08:14:14 PM
Quote
I think in the straight picture you should not see any color effects or something if the display is calibrated good enough.
The next question is how much of these effects you will see in a side angle.
I don't know. I don't look that much on test charts. After calibration I check some black to white gradtions in Photoshop just to see if there is any issue with calibration curve and that's it. I see some issues on S-PVA but I do see others on IPS. There is no display that is perfect.
Above all: we are talking about deviations in a range that are smaller as if you look at the picture on the display with the left or the right eye. Much more essential ist that the calibration is good - and it is never good out of the box - and the viewing conditions are as good as possible. After all these things ... you can think about a certain color shift in a viewing angle you never would sit in front of the display. I have no clients next beside me. So I sit in the middle of the display and that's fine.
When I decided to buy a new display I worried much about these things, too. So I understand what it is all about for you. But I asked some experienced people and none of them - none! - said take IPS or take S-PVA. They always were talking about a particular display with a particular panel and particular issues. You can buy a CG221... do you think it's "perfect"? Far from it. You have to get used to the details this one is doing maybe not as good as a certain other panel. But the other panel is better in something else. And than... the price. If I would invest around 1.000 I would of course take the display with hardware calibration. Either way if it is IPS or S-PVA. That's how I see things.
But I know this make things not that much easier for you ... sorry ;-)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215899\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

thanks tho_mas
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: tho_mas on August 18, 2008, 08:18:16 PM
Quote
thanks tho_mas
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215900\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
De rien. Bon courage!
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: mbalensiefer on August 19, 2008, 01:20:54 AM
Michael,

This is difficult to answer for several reasons.  One is , that this is really non-disclosure information. Eizo does have a LED backlit on the slate for mid 2009. I predict it will be somewhat expensive, but it is impossible to tell now. I make this prediction because of what we know about LED now. Short lifespan, not in volume production, and the blue channel is the first to go, leaving a significant gamut shift.

So, I am assuming Eizo will get a low production backlight system and will fix the problems- and give our usual good warranty. But as a whole, I am not really too excited about LED. IT will be the backlight source for all LCDs sometime, but there are some problems to fix. You will see it in TV and consumer before it is in high end graphics displays. The unit we have will be a 24. I will release another 24 in Jan. It will not be a significant upgrade the one we have now except for one feature that I cannot discuss. Lets say this will be most important if you are a motion picture professional.

If this goes any further, I would need to know specific info (what size you want, what you applications you use).  Or, drop me a call if you have a minute.


Thanks!
Tom

Tom Gadbois
Color Graphics Specialist
Eizo Nanao Technologies, Inc.

Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 8:27 PM
To: Gadbois, Thomas
Subject:
 

Hello!

 I am about to purchase an Eizo monitor, but would like to know when Eizo next has their new upgrade cycle...specifically, the new LED displays currently on the market do not calibrate well with current calibration devices, so I would need to wait until both monitor and calibrator are upgraded.
 

 Does Eizo have plans to use LEDs soon?

Thank you!
Mike B
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Czornyj on August 19, 2008, 05:25:49 AM
Quote
no. The fist image just shows that the display is not matched to the right gamma curve.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215891\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It was matched, but I didn't take the photograph from the perfect straight angle. PVA shows a small contrast variations on the side of the panel, that is beeing observed at an angle - it's not really very problematic on a small screen, but when the screen is larger - 24" - 27" - 30" it's getting worse and may become annoying.

This is not a big issue, and neither IPS panels are perfect - for example PVA has lower (better) black point, and do not exhibit "black leaking". But for some reason IPS are still preferable in most high-end graphic LCDs - like Eizo CG211, CG221, Quato IntelliProof/IntelliProof Excellence series, and Nec Spectraview series.

Quote
what monitors are these images on please?...

It was SA-SFT based Nec 2190UXi and S-PVA based Samsung 214T:
(http://members.chello.pl/m.kaluza/nec3.jpg)
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: tho_mas on August 19, 2008, 06:02:17 AM
Quote
But for some reason IPS are still preferable in most high-end graphic LCDs - like Eizo CG211, CG221, Quato IntelliProof/IntelliProof Excellence series, and Nec Spectraview series.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215948\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
True. If the price would not matter me I would go for one of the Quatos as the calibration software is great and has correction curves for each Quato panel. Too, Quato's support is extremely good.
But the displays discussed here are in a price range you have to make compromises. And the strongest argument - from my point of view - is hardware calibration (and Color Navigator 5.1 contains correction curves for the displays of the CG series, too).
In addition... I think the CGs play in a different league than the Samsung 214T. Eizo does more than just put Eizo-stickers on the panels. The panel surface, the backlight, the internal technology... is made by Eizo. So even if Eizo uses Samsung panels there is a difference.
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Czornyj on August 19, 2008, 06:27:30 AM
Quote
True. If the price would not matter me I would go for one of the Quatos as the calibration software is great and has correction curves for each Quato panel. Too, Quato's support is extremely good.
But the displays discussed here are in a price range you have to make compromises. And the strongest argument - from my point of view - is hardware calibration (and Color Navigator 5.1 contains correction curves for the displays of the CG series, too).
In addition... I think the CGs play in a different league than the Samsung 214T. Eizo does more than just put Eizo-stickers on the panels. The panel surface, the backlight, the internal technology... is made by Eizo. So even if Eizo uses Samsung panels there is a difference.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=215952\")

My 2190UXi has 12 bit hardware calibration and IPS type panel  

Samsung 214T definietly plays in a different legue. But even Eizo can't make a miracle with S-PVA panel type, see for yourself:
[a href=\"http://members.chello.pl/m.kaluza/lcd_butcher.png]http://members.chello.pl/m.kaluza/lcd_butcher.png[/url]
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: tho_mas on August 19, 2008, 06:30:30 AM
Quote
My 2190UXi has 12 bit hardware calibration and IPS type panel  
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215958\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If 21'' is big enough this is certainly a very good choice!
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Czornyj on August 19, 2008, 06:47:26 AM
Quote
If 21'' is big enough this is certainly a very good choice!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215960\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

A larger 2690WUXi is not that bad, either. I calibrated 2 units of my friends and they seemed to be very nice.
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Morris Taub on August 19, 2008, 07:00:41 AM
Quote
A larger 2690WUXi is not that bad, either. I calibrated 2 units of my friends and they seemed to be very nice.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215964\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i guess both of these, the 2190 and the 2690 are spectraview models?...

the spectraview models here in france are really overpriced...but not too bad for the models without about 900 and 1150...

just an example, at Graphic Reseau the 2190 sv is 1673 euros and the 2690 sv is 1864 euros...

is it possible to get good calibration results using an eye one display two puck and the software if the monitor i buy isn't the spectraview ll model?...

thanks...

M
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Czornyj on August 19, 2008, 07:07:40 AM
Quote
i guess both of these, the 2190 and the 2690 are spectraview models?...

Not at all - I bought Spectraview II in US, and it calibrates any 2190UXi/2690WUXi, no matter what version it is. In panels with older firmware it's also posible to switch 2190UXi/2690WUXi to Spectraview mode, then it works with basICColor Display 4.1.8, (aka Spectraview Display, that is attached to each european Nec Spectraview).
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Morris Taub on August 19, 2008, 07:38:38 AM
Quote
Not at all - I bought Spectraview II in US, and it calibrates any 2190UXi/2690WUXi, no matter what version it is. In panels with older firmware it's also posible to switch 2190UXi/2690WUXi to Spectraview mode, then it works with basICColor Display 4.1.8, (aka Spectraview Display, that is attached to each european Nec Spectraview).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215969\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hmmm, thanks for this info czornyj...i may just buy one of these, see how it goes with my ione display two puck and software...if i'm not content maybe pick up the nec software next time i'm in the states or have it shipped to a relative/friend and have them send it here to me in france...

shame though, i've read the nec software and puck are xrite like i have...maybe the software has some specific nec functions to calibrate the hardware lut?...i've read something like this...

thanks again...

M
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Czornyj on August 19, 2008, 07:59:43 AM
Quote
hmmm, thanks for this info czornyj...i may just buy one of these, see how it goes with my ione display two puck and software...if i'm not content maybe pick up the nec software next time i'm in the states or have it shipped to a relative/friend and have them send it here to me in france...

shame though, i've read the nec software and puck are xrite like i have...maybe the software has some specific nec functions to calibrate the hardware lut?...i've read something like this...

thanks again...

M
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=215974\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


If you alredy have i1, then you don't have to buy the Spectraview II + colorimeter kit, just get the SV II profiler alone - it costs 99$ and it works with any i1 colorimeter. Certainly, it has specific Nec functions, and it utilizes the internal 12bit LUT of the Nec, so the calibration process is 100% automatic and more precise.

After you'll get your Nec, enter the advanced menu, go to tag "E", and press "select" and "down" button simultaneously. If you'll enter the "secret" spectraview mode menu, you don't necessarly need to buy Spectraview II in US - you can buy basICColor display (99 Euro), and it will support hardware calibration in Nec (with Spectraview mode on).
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: digitaldog on August 19, 2008, 08:51:41 AM
Quote
This is difficult to answer for several reasons.  One is , that this is really non-disclosure information. Eizo does have a LED backlit on the slate for mid 2009. I predict it will be somewhat expensive,

Seems all Eizo's products are expensive and one wonders why they refuse to supply someone like Karl Lang of Lumetia units for outside, independent testing (as NEC has) and how they can continue to ask these prices without supporting evidence of the cost to performance  benefit.

By the time this so called LED is out, who knows the availability and price of the new Dreamcolor unit from HP which is being heavily discussed now on the ColorSync user list. Here's the original post by someone who knows a thing or two about display technology:

Quote
Hi to all,

The HP 2480zx is a 24 inch display, not thirty.  It has a gamut that exceeds the primaries for Adobe RGB and normally meets the Digital Cinema P3 gamut, but that may be just missed due to LED variability so it is labeled P3 emulation.  The display has a radically different numeric pipeline.  It has a complete matrix shaper look up table capability. The display can accept dual link multi-byte 10 bit image data and the pipeline works to 12 bits.  The LCD module has a true 10 bit interface.  This means that full 10 bit data is being passed to the display module which is very unusual.  The LUTS are 12 bit deep.  The matrix multiplier allows the display to change color spaces instantly.  The display has an LED backlight and that is used to control luminance and white point.  This display has been designed to work at lower luminances.  It can be adjusted from 45 to 250 NITS.  This lower range is needed in the Motion Picture Market.  The Contrast Ratio is 1000:1 or greater.  The display is aimed primarily in the video and motion picture market place, where they have a number of color space standards based upon media and content delivery. The "shift on the fly" color space emulation is very suited to color evaluation in these markets.    For the photographic and Graphic arts community, the display's gamut and it's ability to handle greyscale ramps without banding artifacts should be appreciated.   I have never seen gray ramp performance as good as this on an LCD.  It will take a while  for the average graphics card to catch up with the interface capibility of this display. I wish HP lots of luck with this design.  It is a radical departure from typical displays and it hits a price point that is well below most of the professional displays in the video and motion picture market.

Regards,
Tom L.
Director Video and Motion Picture Technology
X-Rite.

Oh, you wanted both a wide gamut and sRGB (among other) units? Here you go. OK Eizo, your call.
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: digitaldog on August 19, 2008, 08:59:33 AM
Quote
I make this prediction because of what we know about LED now. Short lifespan...

That's absolutely untrue! LED's lifespan is far longer then CCFL by a double factor. (25K versus 50K hours for the NEC: http://www.ppmag.com/reviews/200602_neclcddisplay.pdf) (http://www.ppmag.com/reviews/200602_neclcddisplay.pdf))

Maybe he's saying the lifespan for LED's as a backlight in displays is short, to be replaced by some other technology? IF so, his comment about a  Eizo LED coming makes no sense.
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Morris Taub on August 19, 2008, 11:55:48 AM
Quote
If you alredy have i1, then you don't have to buy the Spectraview II + colorimeter kit, just get the SV II profiler alone - it costs 99$ and it works with any i1 colorimeter. Certainly, it has specific Nec functions, and it utilizes the internal 12bit LUT of the Nec, so the calibration process is 100% automatic and more precise.

After you'll get your Nec, enter the advanced menu, go to tag "E", and press "select" and "down" button simultaneously. If you'll enter the "secret" spectraview mode menu, you don't necessarly need to buy Spectraview II in US - you can buy basICColor display (99 Euro), and it will support hardware calibration in Nec (with Spectraview mode on).
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=215977\")

I read today on the 'open photography forum' that NEC, beginning with their 2008 spectraview monitors, changed them so that this 'workaround' is no longer an option...i wonder if your 2190 or your friends 2690's are 2008 models...

Now, I just read this, not sure it's true, or not...I sent off an email to basiCColor to ask them about it, no word yet...here's the link to the discussion if you're interested...it's quite long...it's sorta what we've been talking about...

[a href=\"http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5716]http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forum...read.php?t=5716[/url]

check out a few posts by Michael Fontana, they start near the bottom of the second page...he seems to have talked with NEC in europe and starting in 2008 he says...

 "I found out, that NEC has disabled in the 2008 (years) version of the 2690 WUXI the option to hardware-calibrate.

So this is different from the 2007-modell! With the 2007 one, it still was possible to get these options.

So basically NEC sells in Europe a hardware-calibratable display, but cripples it down to software-calibrating, only!! In the US, everbody gets the hardware-calibratable ones..

.....geeez; I better don't write, what I think about this company. Messing up with not less than 8 different names for a similar product, whithout specifying it."

NEC europe seems incredibly...ignorant...not sure that's the right word...

M
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Czornyj on August 19, 2008, 12:05:56 PM
Quote
I read today on the 'open photography forum' that NEC, beginning with their 2008 spectraview monitors, changed them so that this 'workaround' is no longer an option...i wonder if your 2190 or your friends 2690's are 2008 models...

Now, I just read this, not sure it's true, or not...I sent off an email to basiCColor to ask them about it, no word yet...here's the link to the discussion if you're interested...it's quite long...it's sorta what we've been talking about...

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forum...read.php?t=5716 (http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5716)

check out a few posts by Michael Fontana, they start near the bottom of the second page...he seems to have talked with NEC in europe and starting in 2008 he says...

 "I found out, that NEC has disabled in the 2008 (years) version of the 2690 WUXI the option to hardware-calibrate.

So this is different from the 2007-modell! With the 2007 one, it still was possible to get these options.

So basically NEC sells in Europe a hardware-calibratable display, but cripples it down to software-calibrating, only!! In the US, everbody gets the hardware-calibratable ones..

.....geeez; I better don't write, what I think about this company. Messing up with not less than 8 different names for a similar product, whithout specifying it."

NEC europe seems incredibly...ignorant...not sure that's the right word...

M
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=216035\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My 2190UXi is that new version, with "workaround" blocked (or rather changed) in the firmware, so I can't use basICColor display profiler (nor Spectraview display). But US Spectraview II works flawlessly, so it's really not a big problem.

Don't even ask basICColor, they'll never admit, that hardware calibration in non-Spectraview Nec is possible.
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Morris Taub on August 19, 2008, 12:18:16 PM
Quote
My 2190UXi is that new version, with "workaround" blocked (or rather changed) in the firmware, so I can't use basICColor display profiler (nor Spectraview display). But US Spectraview II works flawlessly, so it's really not a big problem.

Don't even ask basICColor, they'll never admit, that hardware calibration in non-Spectraview Nec is possible.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=216041\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, I think you're right...I'm not expecting help from basiccolor...

but it does sound like nec europe disables their version of the 2190uxi if you don't get the spectraview ll model...like they disable the ability to do a hardware calibration...

I tell you honest, i wouldn't mind paying for it if they weren't taking such a high premium for it here in france...it's just outrageous...

i wonder if i could live with the 2190uxi, software calibration, no hardware access?...

I'm still gonna try in the next two or three weeks to check out some design studios in my area, see what they're using, who knows, maybe i'll come across a NEC or Eizo so I can take a look for myself...

thanks again...

M
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Czornyj on August 19, 2008, 12:39:48 PM
Quote
I tell you honest, i wouldn't mind paying for it if they weren't taking such a high premium for it here in france...it's just outrageous...

I agree - this is sick, not only in France.
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: msbc on August 19, 2008, 09:23:52 PM
Same thing happens in Australia. I sent this enquiry to NEC Australia:

I already own the 2690 MultiSync version. How do I purchase the
SpectarView II profile software for use with this monitor?

They replied:

SpectraView 11 is only available in the US not in Australia, and has
nothing to do with NEC Australia.

To which I replied:

The NEC Australia web site page for the 2690 MultiSync states "Supports
an internal programmable 12-bit lookup table (LUT) for calibration". So,
my question is what calibration software can calibrate this LUT?

And they replied:

The LCD2690WUXi-BK does have a Programmable LUT, this means if you turn
the screen off and then turn on by pressing the on button and the input
button at the same time and then pressing the down arrow, it will bring
up another menu which will allow you to go in and adjust the LUT
manually. This is an inbuilt feature. Actually programming the LUT using
a calibration software, you need to purchase the SpectraView 2690.

To put this in context - the MSRP for the MultiSync 2690 is $2140 while the SpectraView version is $3315!
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: mbalensiefer on August 20, 2008, 01:39:16 AM
The HP 2480zx...

 Where can I find this online?
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: John77 on August 27, 2008, 03:46:28 PM
Hello,

About s-pva vs h-ips, the following issue, among other things, made me choose a Nec 2690 (1019, Cyberport.de). Unfortunatelly not an SV as the price in Europe does not meet my rather amateur status...

The issue I want to stress here is the shadow detail that blend to black when you are looking right in front of the s-pva screen.  Details appear as soon as your looking sideways. Not really usefull, I think.

Here, you will see an example. I found these images on DPreview (yes, I know...). Unfortunately, I cannot credit them as I do not rebember from which thread I downloaded them. I was able to see exactly the same issue on a Lacie 324 (the only s-pva Lacie).

As said, the only experience about s-pva is the Lacie 324, I don't known if Eizo s-pva have the same problem or with such magnitude.

s-pva (left: perpendicular shot, right: shot sideways)
(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/148465261-O.jpg)

Nec h-ips
(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/148465186-O.jpg)
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Etienne Cassar on September 01, 2008, 08:06:29 AM
Quote
Yes, I think you're right...I'm not expecting help from basiccolor...

but it does sound like nec europe disables their version of the 2190uxi if you don't get the spectraview ll model...like they disable the ability to do a hardware calibration...

I tell you honest, i wouldn't mind paying for it if they weren't taking such a high premium for it here in france...it's just outrageous...

i wonder if i could live with the 2190uxi, software calibration, no hardware access?...

I'm still gonna try in the next two or three weeks to check out some design studios in my area, see what they're using, who knows, maybe i'll come across a NEC or Eizo so I can take a look for myself...

thanks again...

M
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=216042\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am thinking of buying a new monitor too and like you couldn't believe that NEC make such a difference in price for the same monitor just because one is capable of harware calibration, while the other is not.  So I decided to ask for help at the shop where I am planning to buy it, and the reason I was given was that the 2 key differences between the Multisync and Spectraview monitors are the firmware that controls the monitor and, that each Spectraview is individually selected and tested in the factory for colour accuracy and uniformity. Only then is it certified a Spectraview level monitor.  The Spectraview also come with a hood and the profiler software to automatically set up the screen with a suitable monitor calibrator.  The software is only available with the Spectraview level monitors. To profile a Multisync you will have to use the Eye-One Match software or similar and configure the monitor settings by hand.
So probably I'll go for the Spectraview model.

Etienne.
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: MarkF on September 02, 2008, 01:44:02 AM
Quote
I am thinking of buying a new monitor too and like you couldn't believe that NEC make such a difference in price for the same monitor just because one is capable of harware calibration, while the other is not.  So I decided to ask for help at the shop where I am planning to buy it, and the reason I was given was that the 2 key differences between the Multisync and Spectraview monitors are the firmware that controls the monitor and, that each Spectraview is individually selected and tested in the factory for colour accuracy and uniformity. Only then is it certified a Spectraview level monitor.  The Spectraview also come with a hood and the profiler software to automatically set up the screen with a suitable monitor calibrator.  The software is only available with the Spectraview level monitors. To profile a Multisync you will have to use the Eye-One Match software or similar and configure the monitor settings by hand.
So probably I'll go for the Spectraview model.

Etienne.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=218665\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

 The MultiSync calibrates perfectly with the Spectraview2 software with the eye one. The trouble is buying it if you're not in the US. I have a new 2690 (2 weeks old) and the "secret menu" states the date as January 2006, so maybe I was lucky and got an older model before they crippled the firmware? Either way, this is one outstanding display.
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: Thomas Krger on September 02, 2008, 06:06:58 AM
Supported monitors with Spectraview II:
http://www.necdisplay.com/supportcenter/mo...s/spectraview2/ (http://www.necdisplay.com/supportcenter/monitors/spectraview2/)
Title: 2690WUXi-BK or ColorEdge CG222W?
Post by: eronald on September 09, 2008, 12:02:02 AM
Quite a few of us color geeks just went for the 24" HP Dreamcolor monitor.
Wide gamut, IPS.
I've ordered one. I hope it will allow me to softproof the gamut mapping of the profiling software I'm tuning. On paper this is what people should be considering now. Frankly, if I didn't need (I do color stuff) an updated  reference display I would just get an Apple 30".

http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press_ki..._ws_lp2480z.pdf (http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press_kits/2008/connecting/ds_ws_lp2480z.pdf)

Edmund