Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: uaiomex on July 29, 2008, 03:34:28 pm

Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: uaiomex on July 29, 2008, 03:34:28 pm
Or Dalsa as well. This format truly excentric. it would be great for landscape photography, full lenght fashion and pens.

I love the built-in rotating sensor. I propossed that a long time ago. One thing,  I wasn't sure a true 645 sensor would clear the physical boundaries of the back's carcass while rotating.

So, this aproach makes me wonder if they came with a thinner sensor just to be able to rotate it without increasing the outer side of the back.

Don't raise the bridge, lower the river!!  Yeeeeah!

Eduardo
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: gwhitf on July 29, 2008, 05:28:37 pm
Quote
I just don't get why people think landscape photography is a justifiable genre for $40K+ equipment.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=211554\")

[a href=\"http://www.RetiredDentists.com]http://www.RetiredDentists.com[/url]
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: flashfredrikson on July 29, 2008, 06:10:09 pm
LOL!!! pens and retired dentists, too good to be true.
Please Phase, just get a deal sorted out with rollei so i can use a hy6 with a nice back. please.
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: narikin on July 29, 2008, 06:36:33 pm
must be Mont-Blanc sponsored, surely?

good thinking about the rotating back-format constrictions, too - hmm...

agreed this is mucho-bizarre format.
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: bryanyc on July 29, 2008, 07:05:48 pm
Quote
must be Mont-Blanc sponsored, surely?

good thinking about the rotating back-format constrictions, too - hmm...

agreed this is mucho-bizarre format.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211581\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So bizarre that it was a standard in 35mm and remains standard in top of the line "35" digital that so many pros shoot with.      maybe its not so bizarre after all  
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: Graham Mitchell on July 29, 2008, 07:22:00 pm
Quote
Please Phase, just get a deal sorted out with rollei so i can use a hy6 with a nice back. please.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211571\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Have you even compared the Phase and Sinar backs? I've used both and seen the raw files from both and would love to know what advantage you see in the Phase backs that would stop you from just getting the Hy6 today.
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: uaiomex on July 29, 2008, 07:33:46 pm
I agree with you. 2:3 ratio it's been the standard for 35 film and digital for 80 years or so, but not with the more "pro" bigger formats.Since I can't afford a digital back yet, I've been shooting with digital 35 for all kind of things. with the exception of shooting pj, I always wish my Canon was a 3:4 ratio or even better 4:5 ratio.
Someone here suggested that this world its becoming more and more panoramic "as in TV and monitors". Why would someone buy a 40K usd back to see "slides" on his/her latest top  lcd tv?

A 56mp dback (imho) should be targeted for the fashion, portrait, product market. If I could choose, I'd grab a 4:5 ratio camera over the others.

Bizarre is the intention (of course, we don't know Dalsa/Leaf intentions whatsoever). Perhaps there's a secret agreement among back makers to segment the formats and specialize on each.

One more thing. Since Leaf is not spending money on designing a revolving back, maybe they already have plans for the first 56X56mm sensor on the market. Now, that doesn't sound too bizarre!

Eduardo

Quote
So bizarre that it was a standard in 35mm and remains standard in top of the line "35" digital that so many pros shoot with.      maybe its not so bizarre after all 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211585\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: free1000 on July 29, 2008, 07:34:36 pm
This thread is too funny...  

Pens...  Dentists...

Splitting my sides.
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: bryanyc on July 29, 2008, 08:13:13 pm
Eduardo
And I agree with you that I would probably prefer the plain 6 x 4.5 proportions.
maybe it is a price issue?
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: Brady on July 29, 2008, 08:31:07 pm
whatever....buy your p65+ or hassy 645 when they come out and then you can just crop the top and bottom of your horizontal frames and you get the same pano as you do from this new leaf.......hassy and phase made it optional! isn't everyone on here always screaming about choices.
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: EricWHiss on July 30, 2008, 12:53:53 am
Quote
Have you even compared the Phase and Sinar backs? I've used both and seen the raw files from both and would love to know what advantage you see in the Phase backs that would stop you from just getting the Hy6 today.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211588\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Graham,
You didn't direct this question to me, but you could since I'm a likely candidate to upgrade my 6008/P20 to either the AFi or Hy6 with leaf or sinar backs but have been reluctant so far.  

The big advantage of the sinar backs is of course the modularity being able to easily switch between camera platforms but a 2nd strong point is the great ISO 800 files.   However, I've been put off from Sinar backs because of what appears to be a cumbersome 2 step workflow with the files.  A second reason not confirmed or scientific is that the Sinar files people have shared all seem to have a green yellow undertone to them that makes them unappealing to me especially for images with skin (IMHO) - You're welcome to try and show me otherwise because everytime I have tried to demo a Sinar back, the closest dealer seems to forget the batteries or otherwise put me off so I haven't a chance to shoot it myself. It appears that even with Brumbaer tools they have a bit less DR than the phase files I am working with.   I don't know if there is anything to the color issues sensor wise as I haven't seen this problem with the leaf files so suspect its software?   Leaf files seem to open natively in a whole lot more apps so the workflow could be easier but I find the UI of the Leaf backs a put off.  I'd like something I can do easily with one hand, even not looking at the screen.  Dunno - I guess if you get used to it?    Well who knows maybe if they were all taken to a lab and studied the differences in quality would be a wash, but it sure seems like there are differences in color and tone between the Kodak chipped backs and the Dalsa chipped backs at least for the last generations.   I'm looking forward to seeing files from the new dalsa sensors.
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: Graham Mitchell on July 30, 2008, 04:44:48 am
Quote
Leaf files seem to open natively in a whole lot more apps
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211654\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sinar now uses the DNG format for the widest possible compatibility. Pity that you haven't had a chance to use these backs yourself and do a proper white balance. I can send you a DNG raw file to play with.
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: flashfredrikson on July 30, 2008, 04:46:48 am
Quote
Have you even compared the Phase and Sinar backs? I've used both and seen the raw files from both and would love to know what advantage you see in the Phase backs that would stop you from just getting the Hy6 today.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211588\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Good morning Graham an all,
what I like about the Sinarbacks is that they fit on any camera, that is really nice, I hate the phase one concept. Together with the rotating adaptor it almost sounds perfect. But I would never buy a back for that alone. What puts me off is the software. I must admitt I never shot one in a real working situation but I used it on a demo of the Hy6 and talked about it with the photog who was hired to present it to the public. The Software was so chunky, hard to use, maybe you could get into it, but why that effort when there is something that works? And after 200 shots in one folder it crashes... I like C1 3.7 for tethering, and I always tether. It just works. I won't take the risk to hustle around with the sinar software on a real shoot.
Then avalability is another point which keeps me off buying into the sinar system. I have never seen a sinarback in any rental place on this planet, never. It is phase all the way. And I am in Germany, but nowhere around here you can rent one to really check it out, let alone you need backup because the one you own crashes... You can't even look at one in a store...
I can not commend on the files or their quality and frankly, I do not really care, because I think the differences in IQ are so small and with the right workflow, input profiles and post, what you see printed on paper won't be that different after all. I mean in a lot of situations even a well done 1DS MKIII file can keep up with that. But I like to shoot MF, for the ratio, the slower pace and all those things.
But if sinar willl make a nice 30MP superfullframe645true back, maybe even with microlenses P30 style, working in C1 for tethering or maybe just something like eos utility + input icc profiles which let's me use LR, with a decent display, capable of 1 fps and throws in some new AF lenses like 100 2.0, gets the whole system into the rental places in all major markets, I will get one.

As I never see that happen, please phase and rollei, get together like you did before.

cheers,
martin
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: Graham Mitchell on July 30, 2008, 04:56:24 am
Quote
What puts me off is the software. I must admitt I never shot one in a real working situation but I used it on a demo of the Hy6 and talked about it with the photog who was hired to present it to the public. The Software was so chunky, hard to use, maybe you could get into it, but why that effort when there is something that works?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211686\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't see the problem. I used C1 for years before I got my Sinar and both softwares do the job and are easy to use. You also have the option of using third party software with the DNG files so there's really no issue.
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: peegeenyc on July 30, 2008, 08:25:15 am
Quote
So bizarre that it was a standard in 35mm and remains standard in top of the line "35" digital that so many pros shoot with.      maybe its not so bizarre after all 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211585\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Errr - did you read the thread opening post properly?

yes 2:3 is a 35mm standard, but this back is not 2:3
its 2:3.1

i.e. even longer.
very odd, must have been some free space on the production wafer, and they thought 'why not?'
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: James R Russell on July 30, 2008, 09:42:00 am
History repeats itself

(http://mysite.verizon.net/fowler/photo/images/bronica135/01.jpg)
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: bradleygibson on July 30, 2008, 10:59:04 am
Quote
Have you even compared the Phase and Sinar backs? I've used both and seen the raw files from both and would love to know what advantage you see in the Phase backs that would stop you from just getting the Hy6 today.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211588\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi, Graham,

Assuming your question is not rhetorical, I can help here--as you may know, I had a P45 and a P45+ for about a year before switching over to a Sinar e75LV, which I am using now.  The P45+ had a number of advantages for me as a nature photographer (no particular order):

* Lower noise at low ISO
* Multi-channel histogram
* Battery life
* Superior user interface (eg. one menu button)
* A unified file format (the Sinarback does not produce .DNGs, but rather .WR's, .BR's & .IA's, which must be combined by software to create .DNGs)--allowing one to go direct from camera to your choice of developing software, without having to create .dngs post-shoot.
* More mature software--Sinar eXposure has a number of limitations preventing a serious comparison to Capture One at this time, but Sinar is working on it.  Anything from accessing content copied to a portable hard drive to disabling renaming so that the .DNG filenames correspond to the original camera-generated raw files and several other features are not yet ready.
* ~6% more resolution
* Able to shoot to card when tethered
* Custom WB when shooting to card
* Long exposure capabilities

This is not to say that the Sinar doesn't have its own set of advantages:
* Top-notch high ISO performance
* Excellent shadow detail rendering
* Interchangeable mount for near-universal compatibility
* Internal battery is secure
* Single-push CF card eject button
* Innovative internal memory feature
* eXposure produces a superior .TIFF develop from a e75LV .dng than does either Capture One or Adobe Lightroom 1.41 or 2.0

but it shouldn't be too hard to imagine why someone would see advantages in another brand.  My point isn't that any one brand is the best (there is no such thing), it's that every brand has both advantages over and compromises relative to every other brand.  Depending on how you work, the various advantages and disadvantages might amount to something significant, or they might not.

Best regards,
Brad
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: bradleygibson on July 30, 2008, 11:03:51 am
Quote
...a green yellow undertone to them that makes them unappealing to me especially for images with skin (IMHO) - You're welcome to try and show me otherwise because everytime I have tried to demo a Sinar back, the closest dealer seems to forget the batteries or otherwise put me off so I haven't a chance to shoot it myself.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211654\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi, Eric,

Files I've shared with you should not contain this cast--let me know if you'd like raw's to play with yourself.  But for the record, I've not had any color cast issues with my Sinar e75LV.
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: Graham Mitchell on July 30, 2008, 11:59:19 am
Quote
* Lower noise at low ISO

I see no noise at base ISO with the Sinar back. Happy to post a sample.

Quote
* Multi-channel histogram

True, you don't get this on the back. I don't miss it personally. It is multi channel in Exposure.

Quote
* Superior user interface (eg. one menu button)

Matter of taste. I think they could both be improved, to be honest.

Quote
* A unified file format (the Sinarback does not produce .DNGs, but rather .WR's, .BR's & .IA's, which must be combined by software to create .DNGs)--allowing one to go direct from camera to your choice of developing software, without having to create .dngs post-shoot.

If you shoot tethered, or import images from a CF card, the images are stored immediately as DNG files. There is no intermediate step.

Quote
* Able to shoot to card when tethered

Not sure I see the point in this feature

Quote
* Custom WB when shooting to card

Again, not sure I see the benefit. You can pick your own white balance for all images with one click or one manual setting in Exposure.

 
Quote
* Long exposure capabilities

That's a valid point for those who need it.

I still don't see aything that would stop you getting a Hy6

I have posted many images in the 'recent work' thread. Please show me an example of the yellow cast you mentioned.
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: jimgolden on July 30, 2008, 12:14:02 pm
maybe they pull a 1-2 and announce the other half - ie 56x56 $100k sensor!?!?
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: bradleygibson on July 30, 2008, 02:52:01 pm
Quote
I see no noise at base ISO with the Sinar back. Happy to post a sample.
True, you don't get this on the back. I don't miss it personally. It is multi channel in Exposure.
Matter of taste. I think they could both be improved, to be honest.
If you shoot tethered, or import images from a CF card, the images are stored immediately as DNG files. There is no intermediate step.
Not sure I see the point in this feature
Again, not sure I see the benefit. You can pick your own white balance for all images with one click or one manual setting in Exposure.

 

That's a valid point for those who need it.

I still don't see aything that would stop you getting a Hy6

I have posted many images in the 'recent work' thread. Please show me an example of the yellow cast you mentioned.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211784\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As I read this, I think you're helping to prove my point.  In your situation, many of these points are non-issues.  For others, some of these may be issues.

My point is simply that no back will meet everyone's needs perfectly--some will suit each of us better than others.  I think we can all agree on that.

That being said, I do have a Hy6, and all in all, am enjoying it very much!

Best regards,
-Brad
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: EricWHiss on July 30, 2008, 04:20:24 pm
Hi Brad,
Color cast might not be the correct term - but yes I was including your sample images in the formulation of my thoughts.  I dunno what it is exactly but the colors are different from the p20. Is this a Kodak vs Dalsa / bayer RGB filters thing or  differences in color sensitivity of each sensor?  
Do we know anything about color accuracy of each type of sensor?   Maybe it can all come out in the wash with proper profiles and adjustments?
 
But why does it take like 80 points of Tint adjustment in camera raw for a Sinar file and none for Phase?  What's going on?   They definitely give different color looks just as canon has its own look.

Regards,
Eric
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: klane on July 30, 2008, 05:38:54 pm
Quote
Hi Brad,
Color cast might not be the correct term - but yes I was including your sample images in the formulation of my thoughts.  I dunno what it is exactly but the colors are different from the p20. Is this a Kodak vs Dalsa / bayer RGB filters thing or  differences in color sensitivity of each sensor? 
Do we know anything about color accuracy of each type of sensor?   Maybe it can all come out in the wash with proper profiles and adjustments?
 
But why does it take like 80 points of Tint adjustment in camera raw for a Sinar file and none for Phase?  What's going on?   They definitely give different color looks just as canon has its own look.

Regards,
Eric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211841\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I totally agree, it seems that these sensors are "cooking"  or tweaking the colors somewhere in the mix, actually its probably the software...but I really could go for some standardization some sort.

I think that's one thing the industry needs is universal color management tool for ALL files, its probably near impossible and the fab 4 have entered into the megapixel race (well maybe not sinar) and they dont seem to concerned about the things that matter...
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: rainer_v on July 30, 2008, 07:45:19 pm
Quote
Hi Brad,

But why does it take like 80 points of Tint adjustment in camera raw for a Sinar file and none for Phase?  What's going on?   They definitely give different color looks just as canon has its own look.

Regards,
Eric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211841\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

this has nothing to do with the back, but with the software and what embedded color temperature is transferred to adobe or other dng compatible software.
sinar has to work on this urgently i.m.o.

its just and only a question of "interpretation" of the embedded color curve.
you can similate it by giving a "wrong" color temperature to the color calibrations you make in brumbaer tools, before saving it. if you save the same calibration with different color temperatures each time its interpretated at another point from adobe, although the file reamins all the time exactly the same. the default zero ( grey )  point of adobe raw moves, and so the slider have to be set to absurde points.
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: James R Russell on July 30, 2008, 08:55:43 pm
Quote
I have posted many images in the 'recent work' thread. Please show me an example of the yellow cast you mentioned.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211784\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It may be an artistic choice and I don't follow every image posted, but your examples to me look like pink skin.

Once again if that was your artistic goal then your there, but I saw the same pink in the Dalsa sensored camera I owned as its zero daylight balance was yellow green and sometimes it was a one click fix and sometimes it was a completed repaint in photoshop.

All the backs are good, but the point of spending money on the HY6, especially if you start from scratch and don't come into it with a Leaf or Sinar back is your scrapping many tens of thousands of digital equipment just to use the camera.

If you started with a Sinar and have a lot of legacy glass your fine, If you didn't  your probably rich or dig searching the net for used lens bargains.

Regardless, I have nothing against Sinar, but I wouldn't dive into one.  Their marketing is very poor, the ability to find a sinar back with any camera in rental in the U.S. is almost unheard of and last but not least, the software from every report seems to be less than 100% stable.

You bleed Sinar Blue and that's fine, nothing like Brand loyalty if your into that, but for anyone to compete in the professional market with Phase and Leaf they MUST get their equipment into rental and they MUST have dead on, rock solid software without excuse and extra steps.

Personally I think the backs and camera looks like a Euro medical device in that grey/blue paint scheme, but once again, to each his own.

(http://sinarbron.com/sinar/digital/1376_0_sinar-hy6_unten.jpg)

I don't care what anyone uses and don't make a penny from the proceeds of camera sales and fully recognize that what I need is and can be different than anyone else.

(end of disclaimer).

JR
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: Natasa Stojsic on July 30, 2008, 10:03:24 pm
Guys, just think about how many of Hy6 Rollei/Sinar/Leaf would be sold already if Phase announced ....
yes from today you can mount Phase P30+/P45+/P65+ on Hy6....

That announcement alone would drastically change our options and for sure increase the price of the second hand glass etc....

So I think we better buy glass now.... before it happens
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: bradleygibson on July 30, 2008, 10:14:54 pm
Quote
Hi Brad,
Color cast might not be the correct term - but yes I was including your sample images in the formulation of my thoughts.  I dunno what it is exactly but the colors are different from the p20. Is this a Kodak vs Dalsa / bayer RGB filters thing or  differences in color sensitivity of each sensor? 
Do we know anything about color accuracy of each type of sensor?   Maybe it can all come out in the wash with proper profiles and adjustments?
 
But why does it take like 80 points of Tint adjustment in camera raw for a Sinar file and none for Phase?  What's going on?   They definitely give different color looks just as canon has its own look.

Regards,
Eric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211841\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Don't be fooled by the software settings--As Rainier points out, each type of file that is processed is effectively being run through it's own processing pipeline.  Under the hood, you can bet there is different code processing different raw files.

Sometimes companies help each other out for various reasons and that's why some companies' Lightroom conversions are better than others.  I can't (won't) go into any specifics, but the fact that it "takes 80 points of Tint to get the color right" just means that Sinar and Adobe haven't sat down to make the file look better "out of the box" while others may have.

It will be interesting to see if Adobe is able to successfully tame the color beast with their new Adobe Profiles strategy.  Like Leaf skin tones and want that kind of color on your Phase?  It's probably only a matter of time...

James, well put, as usual...

Natasa, I'd love to see that if for no other reason than the improvements resulting from more competition for us as photographers.

-Brad
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: flashfredrikson on July 31, 2008, 03:32:41 am
Attention Attention Rumor!!!

Just the other day the local Phase One dealer told that Phase One anf the Hy6 people are negotiating a solution (I guess the amount of money phase hast to put on the table) to get phase one backs on the hy6. Ok, the exact same dealer said the exact same thing already half a year ago and in the way of ah, I can't tell you something specific but...

End of rumor...


I think this is too funny, the same blabla over and over. But I would really love to see that happen, because the Hy6 is just a wonderful piece of engeniering (except for it's design, as it is really ugly as hell imho).


cheers,
martin
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: ynp on July 31, 2008, 05:19:37 am
Quote
A second reason not confirmed or scientific is that the Sinar files people have shared all seem to have a green yellow undertone to them that makes them unappealing to me especially for images with skin (IMHO) -.......   I don't know if there is anything to the color issues sensor wise as I haven't seen this problem with the leaf files so suspect its software? 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211654\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am surprised that so many people on a number of forums are reporting the problems with Sinar's color interpretation. I have been using eMotion 22 and 54LV for more than 3 years and I briefly owned the eMotion 75, and IMO it is an urban myth. Two years before it was "Green files", now it is "yellowish tint". It is just a wrong workflow.  I think that correct use of white balance (shooting a grey card in Custom WB in untethered  mode) is something that is omitted, even by dealers. Unfortunately the current line of eMotion backs does not support the auto WB and does not utilise the RGB sensor of the Hy6 camera.
I shoot flat art for catalogues and reproduction and for me the correct color is very important. In my experience the Color Calibration in CaptureShop (with the ColorChecker) works fine and I have very good results after I have made several calibrations for my shooting conditions. The Brumbaer DNG converter has a similar   procedure and one can make as many color matrixes as needed. The Brumbaer color matrixes are interpreted correctly in Iridient Raw Developer. I have problems mostly with LR and I had to save a lot of pre-sets and they are not 100% correct with color. I tend not to use the eXposure 6 for critical color work because IMO it is not a finished product yes (as far as color calibration is concerned).
In my personal experience my eMotion 54LV does not allow correct interpretation of Color under tungsten light (2200-3400K) even after the calibration and I have no such problems with my Sinarback 54H; so I think that is something to do with Dalsa or my ignorance or my incompetence.

I'd like Sinar to introduce AUTO WB as soon as possible; we rent my Sinar-M with the e54LV occasionally and I have to hear a lot of complains after the shoot; even experienced photographers forgot how to use a grey card in field!  We (my daughter)  have to process their files for them free of charge if they complain too much about WB. People who rent want to have "nice" files out of the camera!
Sorry for the long post,
Yevgeny
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: rainer_v on July 31, 2008, 05:50:50 am
i have exactly the same experiences with all three backs( 54m, e22/54 ,e75 ) than ynp is describing.
except that i like lightroom for the conversion of the brumbaer dng files too.
it depends a lot on the custom color calibration  in the tools. i described it several times here before.
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: ynp on July 31, 2008, 06:00:18 am
Quote
i have exactly the same experiences with all three backs( 54m, e22/54 ,e75 ) than ynp is describing.
except that i like lightroom for the conversion of the brumbaer dng files too.
it depends a lot on the custom color calibration  in the tools. i described it several times here before.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211985\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Rainer
Thank you!
A lot of my workflow is based on you advice on the LL Forum!
BTW, my best color from Brumbaer Tools is when I use one 6700K matrix
Kind regards,
Yevgeny
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: rainer_v on July 31, 2008, 06:02:30 am
Quote
Rainer
Thank you!
A lot of my workflow is based on you advice on the LL Forum!
BTW, my best color from Brumbaer Tools is when I use one 6700K matrix
Kind regards,
Yevgeny
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211989\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
yes i often use as well a matrix at 6500k, shot under cloudy sky or in shadow.
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: woof75 on July 31, 2008, 09:50:55 am
It's funny this Hy6 business, it's a super high end professional tool that no pro is going to use because of the lack of availability of it in rental houses, I have no idea how they manage to sell them and who are they selling them too? (if anyone) Plus, I don't like the H2 but what does it have that the H2 doesn't have?
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: thsinar on July 31, 2008, 10:01:21 am
hi Eric,

- I don't know and understand where you have seen or who told you about a greenish/yellowish cast or undertone: I can assure you that this is not the case. As Graham suggests it above, make sure to have a right "white balance".

- 2-step workflow: that's not the case with eXposure and its DNG workflow (as mentioned by Graham as well).

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
However, I've been put off from Sinar backs because of what appears to be a cumbersome 2 step workflow with the files.  A second reason not confirmed or scientific is that the Sinar files people have shared all seem to have a green yellow undertone to them that makes them unappealing to me especially for images with skin (IMHO) -
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211654\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: thsinar on July 31, 2008, 10:04:26 am
hi Martin,

I guess you have not tried eXposure: please give it a try.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Good morning Graham an all,
what I like about the Sinarbacks is that they fit on any camera, that is really nice, I hate the phase one concept. Together with the rotating adaptor it almost sounds perfect. But I would never buy a back for that alone. What puts me off is the software. I must admitt I never shot one in a real working situation but I used it on a demo of the Hy6 and talked about it with the photog who was hired to present it to the public. The Software was so chunky, hard to use, maybe you could get into it, but why that effort when there is something that works?
martin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211686\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: gwhitf on July 31, 2008, 10:13:53 am
Quote
It's funny this Hy6 business, it's a super high end professional tool that no pro is going to use because of the lack of availability of it in rental houses, I have no idea how they manage to sell them and who are they selling them too? (if anyone).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212030\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

For the record, to the non-USA photographers here -- there is simply a fear of Sinar in the USA. A fear of no support. A fear of long wait times, if something breaks. ("Sorry, we are in the Alps on Holiday, for next four weeks, please call back. Sanks you".)

We never see Sinar digital cameras on the shelves here; we never see Sinar digital cameras in rental houses. It's simply way too much of an expensive RISK to invest in Sinar.

Is this good? No. But it is the way it is. Does anyone at Sinar seems to be altering this perception? Absolutely not.

Thus, it continues.

The ball is in Sinar's court. You want the perception to change -- then change your business.

PS. For the record, I'm sure Sinar digital system is a fine tool, just like I used to own their 4x5 film view cameras. But the dollar signs are much different now, especially if you need a backup system too.
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: flashfredrikson on July 31, 2008, 06:30:14 pm
Quote
hi Martin,

I guess you have not tried eXposure: please give it a try.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212037\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Thierry,
the software that crashed a couple of times on that demo indeed wasn't the new exposure, but the old one. Just yesterday i downloaded exposure to play around a little and I must admit it looks quite good from the gui and everything. unfortunately I don't have any sinar dngs to learn it's functions and none are offered to download at sinar's website either and other dngs don't seem to work. as there are no sinar dealers in munich anymore i can't even rent or just try a hy6 in my city, and munich is a major market in germany... bummer.
and reading here about all those workarounds with a bear involved, needig to shoot a grey card all the time and matrixes scares me off big time. but that isn't the case with exposure anymore, right?


cheers,
martin
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: mmurph on July 31, 2008, 07:05:53 pm
Quote
For the record, to the non-USA photographers here -- there is simply a fear of Sinar in the USA. A fear of no support.

I am not a Sinar user, so I will not disagree.

I can say that I have received the best support I have ever received from any vendor, in any field, from Sinar/Bron Regional Reps and the high-end Bron retailers, such as Dodd Camera in Cleveland and Chicago.

Both represent absoultely the best in personal, professional service that I can imagine.  I can clearly recall chatting with Matt LaPointe (then at Sinar/Bron, now at Dodd) via e-mail while he was on vacation with his daughter in Florida.

The cell phone numbers of the regional reps are on the Sinar/Bron front page. If you are a customer, most of the reps nationwide will come to know you and be available at any time.  

Again, I haven't had the chance to work with Sinar yet. I have friends that have though. I'll let others chime in on that.

Best,
Michael
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: ynp on July 31, 2008, 07:33:16 pm
Quote
and reading here about all those workarounds with a bear involved, needig to shoot a grey card all the time and matrixes scares me off big time. but that isn't the case with exposure anymore, right?
cheers,
martin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212163\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am so sorry! It looks I have scared you with my talk about critical color and matrixes. I am pretty sure that you can get very good color from CaptureShop and eXposure without messing with color calibrations and matrixes. I was just responding to the claim that  the Sinar files look yellow!
In my experience eMotion backs are capable to give very pleasant skin tones out of box (with the WB set) with eXposure , fast and simple.
I feel bad for having  disturbed the landscape and people shooters with unnecessary technicalities.
Yevgeny
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: David K on July 31, 2008, 11:51:47 pm
I'll add my vote to the outstanding support offered by Sinar.  I've been shooting with the Hy6 kit for several months now and had a few learning curve issues that I brought to Thierry's attention.  I had immediate and competent support and, as I've gotten to know some of these guys... Colin King and Dave McRitchie, have found them also to be very nice folks.  I've never had better support from any company I've dealt with.  If it's not right, they'll get it fixed.  As far as the gear goes, couldn't be happier shooting the Rollei glass and, on occasion, switching adapter plates and reminding myself about how much I like the Contax 645 and Zeiss lenses.
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: Prakash Patel on August 01, 2008, 12:47:39 am
Quote from: gwhitf,Jul 31 2008, 10:13 AM
For the record, to the non-USA photographers here -- there is simply a fear of Sinar in the USA. A fear of no support. A fear of long wait times, if something breaks. ("Sorry, we are in the Alps on Holiday, for next four weeks, please call back. Sanks you".)



Mr./Ms. gwhitf

I don't know your geographic location, but there may be a Calumet nearby or in the southeast
there is PPR in Atlanta.........I am sure they have Sinar products to handle or rent.

I don't think it is indicative of anything that a rental house does not have this product, other than a simple business decision of financial investment for the product and training.

I recently started using the Sinar backs (almost a year) and have used both Leaf and Phase backs as well. Sorry, I am not up on all the various tiers warranties that are currently offered by other backs.

I think there should be only one type of warranty in this price point...please send me a unit that is working the next day, while the manufacturer investigates the issue

From the normal channels of business support: I have experienced  excellent support for my back  from my distributor rep (Jack Strobel @ Calumet), Dave McRitchie (my regional Sinar rep), and Colin King (US Sinar Product manager).

I had a back that was behaving erratically when trying to turn it on....there was a loose component or something. The back was usable but not performing properly, I made one phone call to Jack, Colin called me to go over the issue..... I had a replacement back the next morning. That is the kind of professional support I like and expect. Simple.........its not working properly, Sinar will have you working next day

I don't want to be bothered or bored by making several calls, getting  case numbers, exchanging emails, and return your  back first......... I just want to be able to shoot the next day.

This normal channel will also address user issues and questions.

There is also the "other"channel; the users of this forum , both shooters and reps ( both sales and manufacturer ..Thierry and Steve Hendrix as well as others). Its like having support for questions/issues 24/7
There are plenty of examples of this on this forum.........

Lucky for us here in the US that SinarBron will take care of any issue while the Swiss are on
holiday for a month.

Of course the best warranty is to have 2 backs if you don't want to lose 1.5 to 2 days
while the replacement is being shipped to you.

Looking at some of the warranty extensions or value adds to the base warranties, it actually
makes more sense to invest in a second back (previous generation) than to buy a future "insurance"...........this is the only way to insure "no fear of support".

My one  particular warranty issue was very minor and I was able to do a test run on the particular procedures............It was very simple process that was handled professionally and efficiently.

Everybody has there own views and tastes when selecting a back to their shooting subject/style but popularity/market penetration is not necessarily indicative of performance of the back or the service provided post purchase.

BTW: I enjoyed the cart of rocks anology,  funny its the same as the wild west when the carriage was the dark room carted around by horses....... And how did the poloroid get replaced with a cart of rocks or cart of pebbles(powerbook)?

 http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=208737 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26607&view=findpost&p=208737)
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: EricWHiss on August 01, 2008, 12:58:03 am
Quote
hi Eric,

- I don't know and understand where you have seen or who told you about a greenish/yellowish cast or undertone: I can assure you that this is not the case. As Graham suggests it above, make sure to have a right "white balance".

- 2-step workflow: that's not the case with eXposure and its DNG workflow (as mentioned by Graham as well).

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212034\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Thierry,
Thanks for chiming in and I knew you would have something to say.  But I can put a phase or leaf file straight into Lightroom or other apps if I want. Am I wrong that the sinar files can not go straight in but need to be converted first?   Also I understand from users that they are using brumbaer first then into other  apps. Anyhow it it can't go straight into most DAM software before first being handled by BT or CS then to me this is seems like two steps.  

Also I dunno what to say about color - certainly cast was the wrong word, but I just don't like it whatever it is and I did download your RAW sample and have been given other RAW samples by others.   I have not processed them in Brumbaer or Capture shop, however I've seen plenty that were handled by people familiar with the tools and to me the sinar files have a signature look.  I'm not saying that accurate colors can't be achieved, but I think that's going to be true of any back out there.  I'd love to be proven wrong but so far that's my opinion and only just an opinion. As I mentioned I haven't made any scientific studies.  Am I really the only one that sees a difference in the colors between backs and cameras.  Not better or worse, just different looks -It's like with films, no?  And with digital its always just a starting point, but how much work do you have to do to make it look like mom's home cooking? That's the question.  
Regards,
Eric
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: TMARK on August 01, 2008, 01:20:52 am
Quote
For the record, to the non-USA photographers here -- there is simply a fear of Sinar in the USA. A fear of no support. A fear of long wait times, if something breaks. ("Sorry, we are in the Alps on Holiday, for next four weeks, please call back. Sanks you".)

We never see Sinar digital cameras on the shelves here; we never see Sinar digital cameras in rental houses. It's simply way too much of an expensive RISK to invest in Sinar.

Is this good? No. But it is the way it is. Does anyone at Sinar seems to be altering this perception? Absolutely not.

Thus, it continues.

The ball is in Sinar's court. You want the perception to change -- then change your business.

PS. For the record, I'm sure Sinar digital system is a fine tool, just like I used to own their 4x5 film view cameras. But the dollar signs are much different now, especially if you need a backup system too.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212043\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is my impression as well.  Maybe as some say after sales support is great, but I'll never know because SinarBron USA is invisable.  One problem is that in NYC Fotocare is the main dealer and the sales guys are, and I'm being very charitable in the following assessment, a bunch of dicks.  The rental people are pretty cool, but the sales guys are, well, dicks.  One guy also works at Duggal and is a dick there as well.

I remember sending e-mail to SinarBron and never receiving a response.  Maybe if I buy they become my best friend, I don't know because I can't get to the buy stage because it seems like a risk or they don't want to sell to me.

The marketing is bizarre. Who is the guy in Atlanta who shoots the PDN ads and is in the Youtube video?  Why is he using a ring on camera and the Bron copy of the Briese Focus 220 as a sort of key?  The images are just not great, just badly art directed.  I guess they wanted to squeeze in Bron's sexiest products but man, shadows = drama and using the two broadest light sources in Bron's arsenal, in tandem, destroys all shadows and modeling, and muddles the unique charachter of both of those sources. That's what I see when I look at the ads, not the fact that they were shot with the Hy6 and 75lv.  I can't help but think that the ads could have been shot with a 20d, which makes me question the wisdom of shooting MFDB in the first place.

I was looking to look at a refurb E22 or 54lv when I was looking for a DB.  No one had one or no one was interested in selling me one.  I was even intersted in a 54m and no one was really psyched about selling me or demoing one.  Calumet showed me a Hy6/75lv.  It was cool but too expensive.  A Hy6/54lv was quoted at $28k, and they didn't have a 54lv for me to check out.  I would have paid $20k for a Hy6/54lv if I could have seen one, handled it, and I wasn't quoted $28,000.  So I bought a Phase, which is great and trouble free, and it just works with the Mamiya, and the dealers are great etc. Now, seven months later, I read about guys getting into a Hy6/54lv system for $17k or so. This sours things yet again.  

What is really bothersome is that I think Sinar has the best camera systems, and is really interested in what goes in front of ther MFDB. The ArTec is fantastic.  The fact that they listen to and work with Rainer V. is a testament to Sinar's interest in cameras, which is where my interst is.  So is the Sinar M and the P3.  I have a P and a P2, the P was my dad's.  Must be 30 years old, still tight.  

This isn't really a critique of Sinar, but of the insane way that MFDB are sold.  No wonder people just buy the Canon.
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: TMARK on August 01, 2008, 01:36:41 am
Quote from: Prakash Patel,Jul 31 2008, 11:47 PM
Quote from: gwhitf,Jul 31 2008, 10:13 AM
For the record, to the non-USA photographers here -- there is simply a fear of Sinar in the USA. A fear of no support. A fear of long wait times, if something breaks. ("Sorry, we are in the Alps on Holiday, for next four weeks, please call back. Sanks you".)
Mr./Ms. gwhitf

I don't know your geographic location, but there may be a Calumet nearby or in the southeast
there is PPR in Atlanta.........I am sure they have Sinar products to handle or rent.

I don't think it is indicative of anything that a rental house does not have this product, other than a simple business decision of financial investment for the product and training.

I recently started using the Sinar backs (almost a year) and have used both Leaf and Phase backs as well. Sorry, I am not up on all the various tiers warranties that are currently offered by other backs.

I think there should be only one type of warranty in this price point...please send me a unit that is working the next day, while the manufacturer investigates the issue

From the normal channels of business support: I have experienced  excellent support for my back  from my distributor rep (Jack Strobel @ Calumet), Dave McRitchie (my regional Sinar rep), and Colin King (US Sinar Product manager).

I had a back that was behaving erratically when trying to turn it on....there was a loose component or something. The back was usable but not performing properly, I made one phone call to Jack, Colin called me to go over the issue..... I had a replacement back the next morning. That is the kind of professional support I like and expect. Simple.........its not working properly, Sinar will have you working next day

I don't want to be bothered or bored by making several calls, getting  case numbers, exchanging emails, and return your  back first......... I just want to be able to shoot the next day.

This normal channel will also address user issues and questions.

There is also the "other"channel; the users of this forum , both shooters and reps ( both sales and manufacturer ..Thierry and Steve Hendrix as well as others). Its like having support for questions/issues 24/7
There are plenty of examples of this on this forum.........

Lucky for us here in the US that SinarBron will take care of any issue while the Swiss are on
holiday for a month.

Of course the best warranty is to have 2 backs if you don't want to lose 1.5 to 2 days
while the replacement is being shipped to you.

Looking at some of the warranty extensions or value adds to the base warranties, it actually
makes more sense to invest in a second back (previous generation) than to buy a future "insurance"...........this is the only way to insure "no fear of support".

My one  particular warranty issue was very minor and I was able to do a test run on the particular procedures............It was very simple process that was handled professionally and efficiently.

Everybody has there own views and tastes when selecting a back to their shooting subject/style but popularity/market penetration is not necessarily indicative of performance of the back or the service provided post purchase.

BTW: I enjoyed the cart of rocks anology,  funny its the same as the wild west when the carriage was the dark room carted around by horses....... And how did the poloroid get replaced with a cart of rocks or cart of pebbles(powerbook)?

 http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=208737 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26607&view=findpost&p=208737)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212240\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It sounds like their support is great, if we can judge by the two people on this forum that say they had great support.  That is good news.  But the perception is that SinarBron USA is invisable pre purchase.  

And market penetration is important.  Every tech I know, every assistant I know, knows C1 and Leaf Capture, along with LR.  Only the best, such as BJNY on this forum, have taken the time to learn the Sinar workflow.  Tech also know how to set up and handle, trouble shoot Phase and Leaf backs.
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: Prakash Patel on August 01, 2008, 03:35:23 am
Quote
It sounds like their support is great, if we can judge by the two people on this forum that say they had great support.  That is good news.  But the perception is that SinarBron USA is invisable pre purchase. 

And market penetration is important.  Every tech I know, every assistant I know, knows C1 and Leaf Capture, along with LR.  Only the best, such as BJNY on this forum, have taken the time to learn the Sinar workflow.  Tech also know how to set up and handle, trouble shoot Phase and Leaf backs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212250\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

TMARK

I am naive to the whole concept of a digital tech ( and I am not being a smart ass)...being an architectural shooter, I have a different work flow.  It basically me and an assistant or two ( to assist me with making the photograph). I handle the camera, the digital back , and a computer if i am  shooting interiors and need to see 8x10 poloroid. If a client is present sometimes I review the composition on a laptop.........I don't bother with gray balance or applying profiles to simulate
to the client what the image might look like. Once the composition is set I shoot untethered 2-5 exposures and I am  done with that shot.

I can see if you shoot fashion or studio shots a tech would provide a value in producing some previews onsite for the client....I am sure Digital techs  provide other value ( I mean paying $1500/day to pull Gwhitf's cart of rocks and make previews?.......in many markets that is the photographers creative fee)

So I guess I don't understand how market penetration, a tech or an assistant has anything to
with the decision of what back to purchase.

It would seem to me that image quality, workflow to the specific kinds of shootings , and product support and service would be more critical than whether my assistant or digital tech knows the product I am shooting. ( I am sure if you are working with high production value shoots all the time , it makes sense to purchase based on knowledge base of assistants and techs as they can be the second set of eyes you can trust)

You are probably right about Sinar pre-purchase presence and representation being somewhat invisible.

I think they make nice products with very good support
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: thsinar on August 01, 2008, 07:04:13 am
No harm, Eric.

Yes, Sinar files can go directly and straight into LR: I remind that eXposure is using a DNG workflow. Those DNGs can be handled by all DNG compatible applications.

About colour with different backs of different brands: I can assure you that, to the contrary of what you feel, the Sinar files have been recognized by many as being the most "neutral" and close to reality, but I don't want to enter here in a war like thi. May be it is this neutral look which you don't like. If there is a colour cast, then I can also assure you that it is either a white calibration issue or some wrong handling of the files. In any case, you can perform your own colour calibrations at will, any time and for any light situation (and save it for further use and make them your default calibration), and thus give you the personal look you like to have: it is all a question of being used and practice a little with the possibilities. This is the normal learning curve of any digital back or equipment, and I personally don't think it needs any longer to master the back and the software than any other maker.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Hi Thierry,
Thanks for chiming in and I knew you would have something to say.  But I can put a phase or leaf file straight into Lightroom or other apps if I want. Am I wrong that the sinar files can not go straight in but need to be converted first?   Also I understand from users that they are using brumbaer first then into other  apps. Anyhow it it can't go straight into most DAM software before first being handled by BT or CS then to me this is seems like two steps. 

Also I dunno what to say about color - certainly cast was the wrong word, but I just don't like it whatever it is and I did download your RAW sample and have been given other RAW samples by others.   I have not processed them in Brumbaer or Capture shop, however I've seen plenty that were handled by people familiar with the tools and to me the sinar files have a signature look.  I'm not saying that accurate colors can't be achieved, but I think that's going to be true of any back out there.  I'd love to be proven wrong but so far that's my opinion and only just an opinion. As I mentioned I haven't made any scientific studies.  Am I really the only one that sees a difference in the colors between backs and cameras.  Not better or worse, just different looks -It's like with films, no?  And with digital its always just a starting point, but how much work do you have to do to make it look like mom's home cooking? That's the question. 
Regards,
Eric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212243\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: thsinar on August 01, 2008, 07:08:03 am
just for the record and to put it straight:

- there is NOT such a "the swiss are in holidays for a month".

I don't know where this idea comes from, but Sinar is always open, there is always somebody (actually 2 or 3 persons) doing the tech support, 365 days a year.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Lucky for us here in the US that SinarBron will take care of any issue while the Swiss are on
holiday for a month.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212240\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: thsinar on August 01, 2008, 07:12:59 am
So it is.

The additional "Colour matrices" and other "colour calibration" are simply features of a system which we believe we have to offer to the photographer.

Thierry

Quote
In my experience eMotion backs are capable to give very pleasant skin tones out of box (with the WB set) with eXposure , fast and simple.

Yevgeny
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212177\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: thsinar on August 01, 2008, 07:15:58 am
Martin,

First of all and about DNG files samples: If you don't find any I can send you a couple of them for your use, like I have sent them to others. But I guess that there are a few here that would be ready to provide such files to you.

Then, yes, eXposure can produce files which are accurate in terms of colours "out-of-the-box", naturally and obviously.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Hi Thierry,
but that isn't the case with exposure anymore, right?
cheers,
martin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212163\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: rainer_v on August 01, 2008, 07:23:42 am
hoi thierry,
i want to jump in here about the service question and about the dng colors.
about service:
i started to work with sinar 2,5 years ago, my first contact was in asia with thierry, who even came to location and assistet me in my first sessions. maybe my position with sinar was somehow extraordinary from the beginning ( for the advertisement they made at that time with me and for the brumbaer tools ) , so i cant speak about a "normal" user experience, but what reported here prakash and the others does not sound so different.
i was in close contact with the tech department in swiss from the beginning when i started to use the e22. i realised that  the guys in swiss have been as opened and allways did all they could to help me out. many ideas about sinar products i could discuss there with them directly. it came till the point we have now with the artec. i dont know about the other companies, but i havent heard here a similar story from one of these .....

about the colors:
there seems to be still an issue with the correct color interpretation in third party software, not in exposure directly. you see it in the already described extreme tint setting if you open the exposure dngs in adobe raw. MG said to me that it will be corrected.
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: gwhitf on August 01, 2008, 08:33:43 am
Quote
just for the record and to put it straight:

- there is NOT such a "the swiss are in holidays for a month".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212272\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm sorry, Mr. Hagenauer, it was a joke. Relax. And it was a mistake too -- actually it's six weeks instead of four weeks.

But welcome back, where've you been for so long?

In addition, I agree with Mr TMARK there on many points -- to me, at this point, Sinar/Leaf/Rollei/whatever make the best camera, on the front end, whatever it's called. To be able to, soon, slap on a 6x6 film back and shoot square film, and then five seconds later, slap on a digital back, well, that's a great approach, at least to me. Even with the PocketWizard sticking out the left side of the body, just asking to be ripped off by your left hand as you go to focus, it's still a great camera.

As for the warranty, that 24 loaner is of no interest to me. If you buy one, you buy two and have a back up ready. What if Back One goes down at 9:01am, and there is talent, crew, and support standing around all day, being paid, (now, by me), while I tap my foot at the Fedex Store, waiting for a replacement? No way. You're either a pro, or you're not.

I agree about the Tech too -- how many Techs, even in Manhattan, would know the Sinar workflow inside and out? I suspect very few.

My complaint is a masked invitation to Sinar to invade America. Invade it with force. Invade it with intention. Yank Thierry off the beach and send him to 22nd Street in Manhattan, and let Sinar have a FACE and a VOICE, and begin to retire that Lab Coat Scientist reputation that they have here, and bring a little humanity to the brand. That Thierry guy has done more for Sinar's brand than any ads that they could run in PDN.

With $50-60k on the line, who's going to take a risk, when we all know how well CaptureOne tethers, and how rock solid it is, and we could list ten Techs that know it like the back of their hand?

The CAMERA is the star with the Sinar line; the digital back and the software are the scary part.
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: TMARK on August 01, 2008, 11:35:34 am
Quote
I'm sorry, Mr. Hagenauer, it was a joke. Relax. And it was a mistake too -- actually it's six weeks instead of four weeks.

But welcome back, where've you been for so long?

In addition, I agree with Mr TMARK there on many points -- to me, at this point, Sinar/Leaf/Rollei/whatever make the best camera, on the front end, whatever it's called. To be able to, soon, slap on a 6x6 film back and shoot square film, and then five seconds later, slap on a digital back, well, that's a great approach, at least to me. Even with the PocketWizard sticking out the left side of the body, just asking to be ripped off by your left hand as you go to focus, it's still a great camera.

As for the warranty, that 24 loaner is of no interest to me. If you buy one, you buy two and have a back up ready. What if Back One goes down at 9:01am, and there is talent, crew, and support standing around all day, being paid, (now, by me), while I tap my foot at the Fedex Store, waiting for a replacement? No way. You're either a pro, or you're not.

I agree about the Tech too -- how many Techs, even in Manhattan, would know the Sinar workflow inside and out? I suspect very few.

My complaint is a masked invitation to Sinar to invade America. Invade it with force. Invade it with intention. Yank Thierry off the beach and send him to 22nd Street in Manhattan, and let Sinar have a FACE and a VOICE, and begin to retire that Lab Coat Scientist reputation that they have here, and bring a little humanity to the brand. That Thierry guy has done more for Sinar's brand than any ads that they could run in PDN.

With $50-60k on the line, who's going to take a risk, when we all know how well CaptureOne tethers, and how rock solid it is, and we could list ten Techs that know it like the back of their hand?

The CAMERA is the star with the Sinar line; the digital back and the software are the scary part.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212284\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes!  

Dear Sinar:

Gruss Gott an meine Freunde bei Sinar!  Please invade the USA.  With the way the Swiss Franc-Dollar exchannge rate is going, Thierry could live at Cipriani with P-Diddy as his neighbor.  

Sinar should hire McCann or Goodby and launch a real marketing campaign in the US and get people exposed to the Sinar DBs.  Just look at Blad's marketing as a guide!

Thierry is an amazing, amazing asset for Sinar.  Please give him a raise and a new assignment in New York or LA.
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: eronald on August 01, 2008, 03:22:02 pm
I spend a lot of time with camera geeks. And yet I still haven't been able to hold a fully functional Sinar/Leaf in my hands. Please, Sinar, the tech stuff is done, it's time to name our extroverted friendly and vocal Thierry as marketing director and get him out there showing off the product to as many as possible!

Edmund

Quote
Yes! 

Dear Sinar:

Gruss Gott an meine Freunde bei Sinar!  Please invade the USA.  With the way the Swiss Franc-Dollar exchannge rate is going, Thierry could live at Cipriani with P-Diddy as his neighbor. 

Sinar should hire McCann or Goodby and launch a real marketing campaign in the US and get people exposed to the Sinar DBs.  Just look at Blad's marketing as a guide!

Thierry is an amazing, amazing asset for Sinar.  Please give him a raise and a new assignment in New York or LA.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212322\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: thsinar on August 01, 2008, 03:49:42 pm
I am not taking it too seriously, but I can't let even a "joke" stand on a public forum: there are many reading and thus inclined to believe what is written.
Therefore I beg for your understanding when I wish to correct such statements, even if meant as a joke.

I have been nowhere special, just in a place with no internet connection for a few days. I am actually in holidays, but still here daily, even if not "visible".

I am afraid that you won't see me in the "States" before long. I am responsible for the other half of the earth, not the western part. Still, you can find me here and on some other fotums and get my attention or help for any request.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

PS: forget about Mr., it makes me feel too old! Thierry is just fine

Quote
I'm sorry, Mr. Hagenauer, it was a joke. Relax. And it was a mistake too -- actually it's six weeks instead of four weeks.

But welcome back, where've you been for so long?

In addition, I agree with Mr TMARK there on many points -- to me, at this point, Sinar/Leaf/Rollei/whatever make the best camera, on the front end, whatever it's called. To be able to, soon, slap on a 6x6 film back and shoot square film, and then five seconds later, slap on a digital back, well, that's a great approach, at least to me. Even with the PocketWizard sticking out the left side of the body, just asking to be ripped off by your left hand as you go to focus, it's still a great camera.

As for the warranty, that 24 loaner is of no interest to me. If you buy one, you buy two and have a back up ready. What if Back One goes down at 9:01am, and there is talent, crew, and support standing around all day, being paid, (now, by me), while I tap my foot at the Fedex Store, waiting for a replacement? No way. You're either a pro, or you're not.

I agree about the Tech too -- how many Techs, even in Manhattan, would know the Sinar workflow inside and out? I suspect very few.

My complaint is a masked invitation to Sinar to invade America. Invade it with force. Invade it with intention. Yank Thierry off the beach and send him to 22nd Street in Manhattan, and let Sinar have a FACE and a VOICE, and begin to retire that Lab Coat Scientist reputation that they have here, and bring a little humanity to the brand. That Thierry guy has done more for Sinar's brand than any ads that they could run in PDN.

With $50-60k on the line, who's going to take a risk, when we all know how well CaptureOne tethers, and how rock solid it is, and we could list ten Techs that know it like the back of their hand?

The CAMERA is the star with the Sinar line; the digital back and the software are the scary part.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212284\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: Natasa Stojsic on August 01, 2008, 04:37:20 pm
Quote
Thierry is an amazing, amazing asset for Sinar.  Please give him a raise and a new assignment in New York or LA.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212322\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I second that
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: EricWHiss on August 01, 2008, 04:47:00 pm
Yeah, maybe if Thierry came to the US, I'd actually be able to test a sinar back.  So far all my efforts have been futile as the only one dealer nearby, Calumet San Francisco, just seems to not care about Sinar.  Even when I have made appointments weeks in advance specifically to view and test the Sinar Hy6, they have not managed to have it there or ready, or have "forgotten" to charge the batteries.  But they always seem to be ready with the Leaf or Phase backs and even willing to let me take one to my studio for a day or two.  Why does Sinar get the cold shoulder?  Thierry I know you would fix this were you here!
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 02, 2008, 11:17:29 am
As a sinar owner I would comment..

Sinar are invisible in london too

They need to GIVE or LOAN 50 rigs to the rental shops - to get out there properly

(nikon seem to be loaning free D3s to every canon user I know)

The software

Exposure must be used to import and create DNGs - you dont just drag DNGs off the card

You do shoot DNGs when tethered with Exposure

In terms of using other software (C1) is my choice - (easy contact sheets) I dont know if many settings are passed though especially the color calibration or white correction (they dont even seem to pass ISO or aperture or lens choice)

I do my adjustments in C1 because I find Exposure unstable (maybe more RAM required) and becuase in C1 I can do both my Sinar and my nikon D3

So IMO there is an extra step

ps on the upside - It has been very stable reliable and takes nice images at base ISO so the actual user experience is positive

SMM
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: Morgan_Moore on August 02, 2008, 11:18:41 am
 double post
Title: More elongated than 2:3 ratio?
Post by: bradleygibson on August 02, 2008, 12:59:01 pm
Quote
I second that
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212402\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And I'll third it.