Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: dlew308 on July 29, 2008, 10:43:27 am

Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: dlew308 on July 29, 2008, 10:43:27 am
yaya posted this on another forum:

http://www.leaf-photography.com/afi10 (http://www.leaf-photography.com/afi10)
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: shutay on July 29, 2008, 11:02:22 am
Wow, I think I'm going to just keel over from the shock of it. I'm so used to medium format manufacturers making an announcement once every few years, now there are so many new announcements this year, I can't handle it!  

1. PhaseOne 645 Camera.
2. Hasselblad H3DII-50
3. Hasselblad HTS 1.5
4. Hasselblad View Camera Adapter
5. PhaseOne P65+
6. (expected Hasselblad 645 full frame announcement at PhotoKina)
7. Now the Leaf AFi 10!

What about #8 - next one to drop the other shoe is Sinar maybe?
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: Boris_Epix on July 29, 2008, 11:02:31 am
2:3 ratio on a MFDB.

Isn't that an answer to a question that was never asked?  :-)

The internal sensor vertical/horizontal switching hower seems nice if it's reliable over time and can take some abuse. And certainly the viewfinder mask would need to automatically display the active cropping area (think Mamiya RZ67) which I assume it does not.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: yaya on July 29, 2008, 11:28:04 am
Quote
It's kind of funny how Dalsa has developed special sensors for Phase and now for Leaf. I wonder what differently shaped or sized sensor they will have for Sinar.

Wouldn't costs on the sensor fab and hence MFDBs come down if they just made one sensor version and made a lot of them for all the back makers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211428\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There's more to sensor's design than just "how you cut the cake"....
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: hubell on July 29, 2008, 12:02:24 pm
Very innovative. I also have a hunch that the new Leaf back will have a new, high resolution LCD.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: yaya on July 29, 2008, 12:32:40 pm
Quote
2:3 ratio on a MFDB.

Isn't that an answer to a question that was never asked?  :-)

The answer to that might be the Golden Ratio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio)...with all the recent talk about the RED, 14:9 is going to give new visuals...

Quote
The internal sensor vertical/horizontal switching hower seems nice if it's reliable over time and can take some abuse.
We've had this technology since 1998 without any known issues. I've tried the new mechanism and it is rock solid

Quote
And certainly the viewfinder mask would need to automatically display the active cropping area (think Mamiya RZ67) which I assume it does not.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211424\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There's an orientation icon displayed in the viewfinder plus a marker on the mount itself.

Yair
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: bryanyc on July 29, 2008, 12:35:18 pm
Well, this is very interesting and I have been waiting for Leaf's reply to Phase.  Now we know why Leaf didn't come out with a rotating back like Sinar.

I wonder how durable and accurate this swiveling mechanism is.

Still only 1 minute exposures.  Why is Phase able to pull such longer exposures out: is it a software thing- or what??  The leaf has active cooling.

I wonder why they dribble out the info: they must know the entire specs by now.  I wish they would produce a dng file, that would be so smart.  Not to mention a jpg alongside the raw.  Oh well, I must be crazy for wanting such things, and thinking how useful they would be for workflow and being future proof.

Here's hoping the screen is better (another crazy desire!)
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: TMARK on July 29, 2008, 12:36:14 pm
Quote
The answer to that might be the Golden Ratio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio)...with all the recent talk about the RED, 14:9 is going to give new visuals...
We've had this technology since 1998 without any known issues. I've tried the new mechanism and it is rock solid
There's an orientation icon displayed in the viewfinder plus a marker on the mount itself.

Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211452\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It looks awesome . . .

How about the LCD?  And how about the . . . GULP . . . price, in USD?
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: Christopher on July 29, 2008, 12:38:56 pm
Quote
It looks awesome . . .

How about the LCD?  And how about the . . . GULP . . . price, in USD?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211455\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Now get us a price closer to the 30k than phase and you will win a lot of customers ;-)
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: jimgolden on July 29, 2008, 12:39:38 pm
Quote
What about #8 - next one to drop the other shoe is Sinar maybe?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211423\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


what about Sinar arTec? also alpa max, cambo RS, acra XXX, etc, etc...

funny how very few of these machines are solving the core problems we all talk about. ISO range, stability, LCD, pricing, etc...
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: jimgolden on July 29, 2008, 12:48:23 pm
altho - AFi 10 is solving 2 big ones in my mind - sensor rotation and ISO range (sorta) 50-800!?!
however, @ the price of 6x6 pixels and 3:2 is a little weird for MFDB...hmm
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: gwhitf on July 29, 2008, 12:52:34 pm
I can't imagine that Canon and Nikon have overlooked that "Golden Ratio" marketing approach, with their 2x3 proportions. Shame on them. I guess the landscape guys will love the Leaf proportion; as for the vertical people guys, well, again they get left out in the cold.

Everyone thought Leaf would be the first to bring out a square sensor; instead they head toward the Canon shape. Wow.

Let's hope that everyone remembers to look up and check that icon in the viewfinder for every frame -- there's nothing like shooting a full-page vertical job with the back set on horizontal. I know -- I've done it with the Fuji 680, before the version III viewfinder actually used metal blades to change the viewfinder.

Still, I hope it works for you, Yair. Good luck.

All this time, I always thought GoldenRatio was 4x5 proportions.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: bryanyc on July 29, 2008, 12:55:22 pm
Quote
I can't imagine that Canon and Nikon have overlooked that "Golden Ratio" marketing approach, with their 2x3 proportions. Shame on them. I guess the landscape guys will love the Leaf proportion; as for the vertical people guys, well, again they get left out in the cold.

Everyone thought Leaf would be the first to bring out a square sensor; instead they head toward the Canon shape. Wow.

Let's hope that everyone remembers to look up and check that icon in the viewfinder for every frame -- there's nothing like shooting a full-page vertical job with the back set on horizontal. I know -- I've done it with the Fuji 680, before the version III viewfinder actually used metal blades to change the viewfinder.

Still, I hope it works for you, Yair. Good luck.

All this time, I always thought GoldenRatio was 4x5 proportions.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211468\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

there is that slight difference in that you can see the image orientation on the back  
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: Tomcat on July 29, 2008, 01:11:37 pm
Quote
Now get us a price closer to the 30k than phase and you will win a lot of customers ;-)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211457\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My Leaf rep told me that the Afi 10 will be $40k with the camera body, but no lens.  He said they will have trade-in prices for my old back, but those have not been set yet.

He also told me there will be an Aptus 10 too.  That one will be $35k.  No lens, but I already have those!
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: jimgolden on July 29, 2008, 01:23:39 pm
Quote
My Leaf rep told me that the Afi 10 will be $40k with the camera body, but no lens.  He said they will have trade-in prices for my old back, but those have not been set yet.

He also told me there will be an Aptus 10 too.  That one will be $35k.  No lens, but I already have those!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211474\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

these prices are insane....
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: Czornyj on July 29, 2008, 01:27:39 pm
Quote
I can't imagine that Canon and Nikon have overlooked that "Golden Ratio" marketing approach, with their 2x3 proportions. Shame on them.

Maybe becouse it's not really a golden ratio, and maybe becouse golden ratio absolutely doesn't matter in case of frame proportion
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: flashfredrikson on July 29, 2008, 01:35:15 pm
Nice idea with the rotating chip, really. But TrueWideFormat, WTF??? Ok I see, Leaf doesn't want us fashion shooters, the editorial guys and every body else who mainly does not shoot wide... A pitty as I really like the Hy6. But as there still is some time until photokina I'll keep my fingers crossed for a nice 30 MP fullframe back (TrueFull645SuperFrame!)

cheers,
martin
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: ivokwee on July 29, 2008, 01:48:37 pm
Quote
It's kind of funny how Dalsa has developed special sensors for Phase and now for Leaf. I wonder what differently shaped or sized sensor they will have for Sinar.

Wouldn't costs on the sensor fab and hence MFDBs come down if they just made one sensor version and made a lot of them for all the back makers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211428\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

wasn't Leaf bought up by Kodak? Why don't they use Kodak sensors then?
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: Quentin on July 29, 2008, 02:06:27 pm
Quote
My Leaf rep told me that the Afi 10 will be $40k with the camera body, but no lens.  He said they will have trade-in prices for my old back, but those have not been set yet.

He also told me there will be an Aptus 10 too.  That one will be $35k.  No lens, but I already have those!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211474\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Just say "no".  May the first MF back manufacturer to get a grip and price sensibly clean up.

Quentin
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: E_Edwards on July 29, 2008, 02:23:25 pm
Well, this format should help with double page spreads and I think that little by little we are all heading towards a more panoramic view of the world, most screens are now becoming wide, the Internet is therefore seen on wider shaped windows, then there is the video related work, also wide. I do like the wide format, it gives images a different and sometimes more important dimension, though like everything, it could be a fad that will last a few years.

In the meantime, why not capitalise on it.

I am interested, and would consider buying one, so long as other things have been sorted out, like fast and sharp live view, not too noisy high ISO, fast tethering, etc, etc. Chip size is no longer as important as it used to be.

I like the idea of the internal rotation of the chip a lot!.

To me, the ideal chip would be 6x7 on a camera like the RZ but with full front and rear movements.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: Khun_K on July 29, 2008, 02:44:50 pm
Quote
Well, this format should help with double page spreads and I think that little by little we are all heading towards a more panoramic view of the world, most screens are now becoming wide, the Internet is therefore seen on wider shaped windows, then there is the video related work, also wide. I do like the wide format, it gives images a different and sometimes more important dimension, though like everything, it could be a fad that will last a few years.

In the meantime, why not capitalise on it.

I am interested, and would consider buying one, so long as other things have been sorted out, like fast and sharp live view, not too noisy high ISO, fast tethering, etc, etc. Chip size is no longer as important as it used to be.

I like the idea of the internal rotation of the chip a lot!.

To me, the ideal chip would be 6x7 on a camera like the RZ but with full front and rear movements.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211501\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Agreed.  Photography should be creative control, not limited to the format of sensor.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: BJL on July 29, 2008, 02:55:09 pm
Some very interesting facts here

1. Dalsa is now making two "exclusive" custom variants on the same basic design (same 6 micron cell), probably doable on the same production line so that there is little extra cost over a single sensor model.

2. The larger, square 56x56mm format camera has a sensor of slightly smaller area and far less square shape! And the shape woudl fit withing teh 645 fomrat frame. In most of the common larger print shapes like 10x8, 14x11 and the ISO A paper sizes, the final crop gives a slightly smaller image than the 54x40mm P65+ sensor, the same size as one would get by cropping from a 36x48mm sensor. So apparently this sensor has a big focus on full double page spreads and panoramic landscapes. I use the adjective "panoramic" to fight the dogma that most or all landscapes are in wide aspect ratios: Check out the landscapes of Ansel Adams for example (some are even verticals!)


Also, the rumored 48x48mm Dalsa sensor seems to be off the table. Or maybe Dalsa will make a square sensor exclusively for the Rollei branded version of the Hy6 body, for traditionalists?!

Seriously, this seems to confirm what I have been saying for years (and Mamiya long before me!): rotating backs can eliminate most needs for square film formats and square sensors, even if square viewfinders still have their place.


P.S. I doubt that MF backs are designed to fit the needs of video or display on computer screens. The shape choices of still and moving images are somewhat different.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: RobertJ on July 29, 2008, 02:58:08 pm
Hmm.  I like this idea.  I think wide is the future.  

But only 20 more mm on the short end, and we could've had 56x56mm, and it only would've cost, like, $120,000 dollars!  Come on DALSA!  Get your act in gear!

But seriously, let's take a look at the numbers here:

The new "10" back gives you a 3:2 20x30 inch print at 300dpi right out of the camera.  Daddy likes.

Cropped to 4:3, you get a 20x25 inch print at 300dpi.
Compared to a P65+, at native file size, which is already at 4:3 to begin with, you get approx 22x30 inch print at 300dpi.  Not a huge difference to me.

I'm guessing the Aptus and Sinar backs will be identical?  Or does Sinar choose to not go with the wide chip, and use something like what Phase is using?
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: klane on July 29, 2008, 02:58:10 pm
Awesome that leaf brought back the turning sensor!

But why why whyyyyyyyy a 3:2 sensor???  im open minded about sensor shape...but this seems like a bad idea.

Not too thrilled about 6x6 microns either. What happened to all that tech talk we were submitted to years ago about the advantages of large photosites?? Did the laws of physics change in the past couple of years?


Im glad to see something new out there, but it hardly seems like what people are asking for.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: James R Russell on July 29, 2008, 02:58:32 pm
Quote
yaya posted this on another forum:

http://www.leaf-photography.com/afi10 (http://www.leaf-photography.com/afi10)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211413\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I think they're missing a marketing strategy on the names.

It should be Wide True Format

JR
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: Rune Werner Molnes on July 29, 2008, 02:59:34 pm
The AFi10 looks very promising indeed.

New announcements like this one is nice to see for people like my self, who has invested in the Leaf AFi- system. It seems to promise a system wich is somewhat future- proof and alive.

Beeing a landscape photographer, I only wish that it was available at the time I bought the AFi7. The cost of upgrading will probably prohibit me from investing in the AFi10 in the forseeable future, if ever. (My whife would probably want my signature on this one  

Anyway, I think that Leaf has announced a very competitive product with the AFi10, given a reasonable pricing.

Regards,

Rune Werner Molnes
www.runemolnes.com (http://www.runemolnes.com)
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: BJL on July 29, 2008, 03:03:01 pm
Quote
wasn't Leaf bought up by Kodak? Why don't they use Kodak sensors then?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211491\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It is a strange arrangement. Apparently Kodak was after other assets of Creo, has no interest in the Leaf MF products that came in the package, and so just leaves the Leaf MF step-children locked in the attic, continuing to make backs with Dalsa sensors.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: Dustbak on July 29, 2008, 03:10:24 pm
I would consider it a fine example of keeping a daughter company at arms length  This way whatever way it swings Kodak will benefit.

Interesting announcement. the 2:3 Leaf vs the 4:3 P65+, hmmm. Why? is one of my first questions. FPS is handy but in most magazines I only see about one of those vs a lot of verticals. 3:4 I find more interesting.

It does renew my interest in getting a Leaf back again, an A65s for my Digiflex
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: hubell on July 29, 2008, 03:11:33 pm
Quote
It is a strange arrangement. Apparently Kodak was after other assets of Creo, has no interest in the Leaf MF products that came in the package, and so just leaves the Leaf MF step-children locked in the attic, continuing to make backs with Dalsa sensors.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211512\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

When you see Leaf sourcing their sensors from a competitor rather than a Kodak affiliate that makes sensors, you realize why kodak is in the finanacial condition it is.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: BJL on July 29, 2008, 03:14:42 pm
Quote
What happened to all that tech talk we were submitted to years ago about the advantages of large photosites?? Did the laws of physics change in the past couple of years?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211509\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The laws of physics and mathematics did not change: that tech. talk misinterpreted them by ignoring the core fact that
The most significant measures are "light gathered and sensor noise per unit area of the image", not per pixel.

A sensor with somewhat more, somewhat smaller cells covering the same part of the image delivered by the lens give very similar effective noise levels and dynamic range; it also gives greater resolution, at least when noise levels are low enough. So apart possibility from prices being pushed higher by demand for more pixels, having more pixels in the same format is close to a "win-draw" situation.

This has been discussed a great deal in these forums recently, with respect to the coming 50MP H3DII-50 and 60MP P65+ backs.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: gwhitf on July 29, 2008, 03:19:06 pm
Quote
Agreed.  Photography should be creative control, not limited to the format of sensor.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211504\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mr K,

I dare you -- go buy an XPan, and just see if your philosophy holds true. There's no way in hell that you CAN'T not shoot a landscape with it. Everywhere you go, you look for camels on the horizon, gurgling brooks, long wide mountainscapes -- even in the heart of Manhattan.

You look thru that long pano viewfinder, and it just says to you, "I just dare you to try to shoot a vertical".

So, I respectfully disagree. You always react and compose relative to the shape of your frame.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: peegeenyc on July 29, 2008, 03:32:18 pm
Quote
But why why whyyyyyyyy a 3:2 sensor???  im open minded about sensor shape...but this seems like a bad idea.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211509\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
agree - seems a weird move to me, and not of personal interest, (though am all for variety in the market place)
I always end up cropping my Canon 2:3 frames down and losing those expensive pixels I paid many $ for.  
a very odd move by Leaf. did they get second dibs at Dalsa?!

rotating sensor - nice, but should have been 3:4, really.

...Price?
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: canmiya on July 29, 2008, 03:40:00 pm
Quote
When you see Leaf sourcing their sensors from a competitor rather than a Kodak affiliate that makes sensors, you realize why kodak is in the finanacial condition it is.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211516\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
wasn't leaf using a dalsa sensor before the kodak purchase?
the other way of looking at it is that perhaps kodak decided that they should leave well enough alone:  "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: Khun_K on July 29, 2008, 03:45:19 pm
Quote
Mr K,

I dare you -- go buy an XPan, and just see if your philosophy holds true. There's no way in hell that you CAN'T not shoot a landscape with it. Everywhere you go, you look for camels on the horizon, gurgling brooks, long wide mountainscapes -- even in the heart of Manhattan.

You look thru that long pano viewfinder, and it just says to you, "I just dare you to try to shoot a vertical".

So, I respectfully disagree. You always react and compose relative to the shape of your frame.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211519\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No offense, I did use 2 Xpan back in the days I still shoot film, one just fitted with the 30mm and never take off, and another body use with different lenses. And I still believe what I comment is workable for me.  However, I sold my Xpan and Linhof 612PC and 617 few years ago and just work on digital now - but never say never, I still keep some film gear.  And of course, I use them often in vertical, but not as much as horizontally.  I even use them to shoot fashion.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: peegeenyc on July 29, 2008, 05:29:40 pm
just realised this is not a 2:3 ratio,
its 2:3.1  

2:3 would be 6000:9000
the sensor is 6000:9288

most odd
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: mtomalty on July 29, 2008, 06:45:28 pm
I've got a couple of billion subjects just screaming for this sensor !

Not a vertical in sight



[attachment=7676:attachment][attachment=7677:attachment][attachment=7678:attachm
ent]
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 29, 2008, 08:36:19 pm
Quote
yaya posted this on another forum:

http://www.leaf-photography.com/afi10 (http://www.leaf-photography.com/afi10)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211413\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This looks like a great option for panoramic shooting, not because the sensor is 2:3, but because it is the sensor with the highest number of pixels along the long edge.

A 4 or 5 images single row panorama would already go a long way, around 140 megapixel images in a few seconds with a relatively simple set up. Having 9000+ usable pixels on the long edge enables to do a print about 38 inch wide at 240 DPI, great way to use a 44 inch printer.

Wondering how much it is going to sell for... will they stay under 30,000 US$ or go crazy like Phaseone?

Regards,
Bernard
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 29, 2008, 08:53:35 pm
Quote
yaya posted this on another forum:

http://www.leaf-photography.com/afi10 (http://www.leaf-photography.com/afi10)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211413\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

A few questions:

- Can the back be bought standalone without the camera?
- What is the price and availability of the standalone back/full camera?-
- Can the back be used on the new Sinar architecture Arc?
- How clean are 1 minutes exposures?

Thank you.

Regards,
Bernard
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: eronald on July 29, 2008, 11:24:45 pm
Quote
A few questions:

- Can the back be bought standalone without the camera?
- What is the price and availability of the standalone back/full camera?-
- Can the back be used on the new Sinar architecture Arc?
- How clean are 1 minutes exposures?

Thank you.

Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211617\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Click. Flip. Click. Starfish !

Edmund
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 30, 2008, 12:03:39 am
Quote
Click. Flip. Click. Starfish !

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211644\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Desole, j'ai un peu de mal a te suivre la...  

a+
Bernard
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: bryanyc on July 30, 2008, 12:11:48 am
Quote
Click. Flip. Click. Starfish !

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211644\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Starfish have 5 legs.  Perhaps you are thinking of a Swiss Cross?
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: James R Russell on July 30, 2008, 12:37:14 am
Quote
Mr K,

I dare you -- go buy an XPan, and just see if your philosophy holds true. There's no way in hell that you CAN'T not shoot a landscape with it. Everywhere you go, you look for camels on the horizon, gurgling brooks, long wide mountainscapes -- even in the heart of Manhattan.

You look thru that long pano viewfinder, and it just says to you, "I just dare you to try to shoot a vertical".

So, I respectfully disagree. You always react and compose relative to the shape of your frame.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211519\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Imagine what the film world would have been like if it was invented today.  

In medium format you'd have 6 highley detailed films in 6 sizes with a lot of lattitude though a  very grainy polaroid.

The films would all be limited to 200 to 400 asa, unless your pushed them.

You'd have one Kodak film that only fit in Hasselblad cameras at less than full frame size.  You'd have one Dalsa film that worked in Mamiya cameras that was full frame, a different dalsa film size that only worked in Rollei cameras,  older Kodak films that worked in almost any camera but less than full frame, older Dalsa films that worked in most cameras but was less than full frame and you would have to know which lab processed which film.  Some films would require you to convert it first at one lab, then take it over to your standard lab, some films would work at any lab and some films would work in any lab but not look very good, unless you took the negatives to another lab and fixed them.

In 35mm you'd have one professional film,  one size that worked in any lab and  made a big smooth polaroid.




JR
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: pss on July 30, 2008, 05:24:17 pm
besides the very strange choice of format....
am i the only one who just can't believe that this compared to the the P65 offering just is an instant runner up?
no we haven't seen any files but the biggest advantage of the P65 imo is that i won't HAVE to end up with gigantic files....to me the P65 is interesting because it will be a 30mpix back with crazy DR and probably pretty clean high iso in a full frame sensor.....and all that at a format which now should be called "diamond" (4:3)....

about the 2:3 being perfect for shooting mag spreads....i had a double spread a couple of months ago shot with the 10mpix leica m8...shot as a vertical it was cropped to run as a horizontal at 10x24....in a very high quality glossy....so i don't see why i would need the extra 50mpix to do that....

that internal rotation thing is cool but a rotating back is one of the advantages of the Hy6/Afi anyway....so why add weight, mechanism and tons of possible problems (moving parts!, alignment!,....) to a back that will mostly be used on that (Afi, Hy6) system anyway?
plus it is only interesting if it works with automatic findermasking which i am positive wasn't planned into the Afi, so we probably won't see it......

very strange.....

maybe sinar will have a different sensor (also from dalsa) which will be square and will also feature internal rotation....now that would be really cool...
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: James R Russell on July 30, 2008, 05:46:44 pm
Quote
besides the very strange choice of format....
am i the only one who just can't believe that this compared to the the P65 offering just is an instant runner up?
no we haven't seen any files but the biggest advantage of the P65 imo is that i won't HAVE to end up with gigantic files....to me the P65 is interesting because it will be a 30mpix back with crazy DR and probably pretty clean high iso in a full frame sensor.....and all that at a format which now should be called "diamond" (4:3)....

about the 2:3 being perfect for shooting mag spreads....i had a double spread a couple of months ago shot with the 10mpix leica m8...shot as a vertical it was cropped to run as a horizontal at 10x24....in a very high quality glossy....so i don't see why i would need the extra 50mpix to do that....

that internal rotation thing is cool but a rotating back is one of the advantages of the Hy6/Afi anyway....so why add weight, mechanism and tons of possible problems (moving parts!, alignment!,....) to a back that will mostly be used on that (Afi, Hy6) system anyway?
plus it is only interesting if it works with automatic findermasking which i am positive wasn't planned into the Afi, so we probably won't see it......

very strange.....

maybe sinar will have a different sensor (also from dalsa) which will be square and will also feature internal rotation....now that would be really cool...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211857\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well, with all these annoucements there is a lot of headline, but not a lot of detailed body copy.  

Maybe once all the product comes out and the features are announced they will be great, though the price does stop me a bit on all the new backs.  

The thing about the Rollei (I'm going to keep calling it a Rollei until somebody starts shipping Rollei's), is it's the only camera (camera not back) that I find really interesting, especailly with all the legacy glass that's available.

The stuff I'd really like to know about the Rollei is does all the old lenses work or do they have to be calibrated to hit focus?

Does Rollei plan of making the camera available for backs other than Sinar and Leaf, or are they precluded from doing so.

(I know this has been debated forever but I've never seen anyone say that this definatley won't happen).

Next in regards to the Leaf, does the screen black out when the rotation is swtiched?

This is a big deal and working under a lot of pressure in a hurried way can make the difference from getting the shot and not.

What happens to the AFI 7, 6 and 5.   Will those backs continue and will they get some form of rotation, either with a revolving plate or an upgrade?

As far as 2:3 I don't get it and would love to hear to real, official reason. Was Dalsa precluded from selling anyone another FF 645 sensor (other than Phase), or is Leaf trying for the Super 35mm market, or is it just as someone suggested the only way to make it 56mm across?

Will there also be any kind of asa boost from the Leaf?



JR
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: eronald on July 30, 2008, 06:54:12 pm
Quote
Starfish have 5 legs.  Perhaps you are thinking of a Swiss Cross?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211648\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


right. Well, maybe a Maltese cross as Leaf is near the promised land

Edmund

PS. Bernard - I'm glad to see that you can be reached per forum
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: rainer_v on July 30, 2008, 09:10:20 pm
i dont care so much the size, although i prefer 3x4 or 4x5,
but as yaya said one allways can stitch and the resulting  resolution will be enormous.

i just hope that this time they dont go on with a thing similar as the centerfold in the a75. this time it will not be enough power to hide it so well as leaf was able to do it in the last 2 years,- to my surprise.
i really hope for them and more for the buyers that the new dalsas will not show the same stitch again, or that leaf will treat it right this time and finally get it sorted out with the right code, esp. because the afi mount will work on the artec from the beginning, so many will choose this back for it.
reg. phase i have not much doubt that they wont run in such trouble with their new dalsa, as their sw department seems to be very tough.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: David WM on July 30, 2008, 09:38:32 pm
I do not really see the trouble with a wide chip. If you crop it to 3:4 proportions you'll still have around 45 - 48 MP I guess. Just mask it off and forget that the extra is there if it bothers you. I think it would be smart to have some customised masks available so you don't have to make your own. Making the chip this proportion they satisfy the requirements of more photographers. Leaf are only maker to offer a rotating chip, which seem to me to be such a logical thing to do. Sure beats tipping the camera on its side.
David
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: Natasa Stojsic on July 30, 2008, 09:43:19 pm
I like the new AFi10 idea!!!

However, I am not good with math   but how many of you would rathe take let's say P30+/Aptus/Sinar/H3D with existing 30mp on 6x7 sensor instead of the new size 60mp sensors?

In case that Aptus asked Dalsa for let's say a model with existing 28/30mp but 6x7 sensor like their Screen... I think that would be much smarter and more viable/balanced choice on todays market and perhaps
improve on that or/and add the new AFi10 as addition and see what's a better catch.... I bet they would sell more 28/30mp with 6x7 sensor.....

Not sure if this make sense?
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: berg on July 30, 2008, 10:01:42 pm
[The interesting thing of the Hy6 is that it is so precisely produced that no individual calibration of lenses or backs to the body is needed.][/QUOTE]
EPd

Is that why i´ve seen 3 different Afi´s with 3 different callibrations. One was 5 cm off in focus.
Mine was 10 cm off and the the last one was spot on. And is it also why Alpa has made 2 different mounts for the hy6, so that they will fit the lower tollerences in the Hy6 and AFi.


[because the afi mount will work on the artec from the beginning, so many will choose this back for it.]
Quote
Rainer v

Not without shims.


[phase i have not much doubt that they wont run in such trouble with their new dalsa, as their sw department seems to be very tough]
Quote
Rainer v

Well nobody knows. maybe even double centerfold since it will be 4 readout.
All we know for sure is that Leaf had centerfoldissues with some backs and that it only showed when using lenses that neded the LC calibration anyway. So really no issue at all.
Never shoved on mirror reflex only on nonretrowidanglelenses, and in some cases only at extreeme shifts.
berg
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: pss on July 31, 2008, 12:14:56 am
Quote
I do not really see the trouble with a wide chip. If you crop it to 3:4 proportions you'll still have around 45 - 48 MP I guess. Just mask it off and forget that the extra is there if it bothers you. I think it would be smart to have some customised masks available so you don't have to make your own. Making the chip this proportion they satisfy the requirements of more photographers. Leaf are only maker to offer a rotating chip, which seem to me to be such a logical thing to do. Sure beats tipping the camera on its side.
David
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211918\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

all backs rotate on the Hy6 or Afi as do all back s that fit on the RZ....i am not sure i want moving parts in a 40000 back (which means i am less likely to have a back-up handy:)..).....i would rather just rotate the back then have the chip move with the back.....

why do they satisfy more photographers with this format?
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: David WM on July 31, 2008, 01:02:48 am
Quote
why do they satisfy more photographers with this format?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211937\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you do advertising and want to shoot A4 proportions for magazine, you have effectively approx 45 to 48 Mb chip area. If you want wide you have that also, which is probably more likely doing landscapes. To me it sounds more versatile.  When I got my first DB it was a Leaf DCB2, a square chip. A lot of people seem to love square, but in practice I found it about the least useful size, and took a lot of photos with the camera cranked over at 45 degrees to maximise file size with a long thin subject. If you want to shoot square with the new 56MP chip, you still have a 36MP area to work with. I doubt that you would find the mechanics of the rotation of the chip a problem as from what I have gathered, Leaf makes high quality products and I would be surprised if their mechanical design would be deficient. We've seen multi shot systems where the chip is nudged by precise amounts between exposures, a concept which would worry me a lot more than a  rotation of 90 degrees.  Personally I like the idea of 3:4 proportions, but I am not concerned that there is more chip area outside of that for when its wanted.  What would be really handy is the ability to crop at capture, so if you are shooting square or a small subject, you wouldn't  need to drag the whole file through processing. Anyway, maybe Leaf are planning on having more than 1 chip (shape) available.
David
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 31, 2008, 01:13:10 am
Quote
PS. Bernard - I'm glad to see that you can be reached per forum
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211876\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Edmund,

A regretable mishap for which I have no problem apologizing a second time. Any next trip to Tokyo planned?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: yaya on July 31, 2008, 02:48:45 am
Quote
If you do advertising and want to shoot A4 proportions for magazine, you have effectively approx 45 to 48 Mb chip area. If you want wide you have that also, which is probably more likely doing landscapes. To me it sounds more versatile.  When I got my first DB it was a Leaf DCB2, a square chip. A lot of people seem to love square, but in practice I found it about the least useful size, and took a lot of photos with the camera cranked over at 45 degrees to maximise file size with a long thin subject. If you want to shoot square with the new 56MP chip, you still have a 36MP area to work with. I doubt that you would find the mechanics of the rotation of the chip a problem as from what I have gathered, Leaf makes high quality products and I would be surprised if their mechanical design would be deficient. We've seen multi shot systems where the chip is nudged by precise amounts between exposures, a concept which would worry me a lot more than a  rotation of 90 degrees.  Personally I like the idea of 3:4 proportions, but I am not concerned that there is more chip area outside of that for when its wanted.  What would be really handy is the ability to crop at capture, so if you are shooting square or a small subject, you wouldn't  need to drag the whole file through processing. Anyway, maybe Leaf are planning on having more than 1 chip (shape) available.
David
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211944\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks David, here below are a few images that help in visualising the size and the achievable crops from the new sensor:

(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/56577Picture%206.jpg)

(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/90830Picture%205.jpg)

And here is a table with some popular crops (in horizontal view) and the actual sizes in pixels:

(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/31702Picture5.jpg)

I've tried the rotating mechanism and it is ingeniously simple and there are absolutely no tolerances there. I would say that it is much more robust and solid (an accurate) than an RZ rotating adapter...

(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/23024AFi-10.gif)

We've had rotating sensors since 1998, including one that was also doing "nudging" in the Cantare XY and never had sensor miss-alignment.


BR

Yair
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: rainer_v on July 31, 2008, 04:01:37 am
Quote
[
Well nobody knows. maybe even double centerfold since it will be 4 readout.
All we know for sure is that Leaf had centerfoldissues with some backs and that it only showed when using lenses that neded the LC calibration anyway. So really no issue at all.
Never shoved on mirror reflex only on nonretrowidanglelenses, and in some cases only at extreeme shifts.
berg
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211921\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
its just bs.
 i will not go in deeper, but i simply cant stand this miss information about cf. as i couldnt from the beginning. nothing changed. it was a big problem with shift lenses and it still is,- and i hope  it wont go on with the new dalsa. i personally know many users which gave back there a75 backs, some several times,  some in the last months and what a couple of  their dists where telling me about this is just horrible. but as i said: i dont want to insist once more, dont want to disturb the party.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: tho_mas on July 31, 2008, 04:14:02 am
Quote
(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/23024AFi-10.gif)
As the chip is adjustable a shiftable chip would have been a great feature. Would be 10mm in both directions. Not bad for a bulit in solution.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: Robin Balas on July 31, 2008, 07:34:27 am
Quote
...

As far as 2:3 I don't get it and would love to hear to real, official reason. Was Dalsa precluded from selling anyone another FF 645 sensor (other than Phase), or is Leaf trying for the Super 35mm market, or is it just as someone suggested the only way to make it 56mm across?

Will there also be any kind of asa boost from the Leaf?
JR
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=211862\")
First, if this post seems biased against Leaf - its not (I own and use an Aptus MFDB).

One possible explanation is the architecture behind the CCD read outs. CCD's of this kind is not read out pixel by pixel, its column by column. So adding length to the columns are almost trivial if you overlook the wafer costs and yield issues which are not trivial.
Adding columns means a major redesign of the support electronics in the back. So if you are desperate for time answering some competition, adding pixels by increasing the depth of your columns is way easier and faster than starting all over on a new back and chip. So instead of having a 48MP 645-crop back we got a 56MP 645 pano-crop back. Marketing wise I think it was a smart move. For me it was not as I tend to end up with something in-between 4:3 and 1:1. My private projects would benefit from it, but not my wallet.

So what Leaf/DALSA have done here in my opinion is a smart, easy and cost efficient increment in sensor real estate and resolution enabling LEAF to build on their existing tech instead of redesigning everything late in the cycle. A shame it isn't visible in the pricing though. You guys should check out the MFDB pricing in Norway if you want a good laugh. [a href=\"http://www.interfoto.no/aspx/prdinfo.aspx?plid=22961]P65+ basic support package[/url] 247K NOK = 48K USD , the value added package including full support is 53K USD

MHO.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: peegeenyc on July 31, 2008, 09:38:21 am
Quote
I do not really see the trouble with a wide chip. If you crop it to 3:4 proportions you'll still have around 45 - 48 MP I guess. Just mask it off and forget that the extra is there if it bothers you. 
David
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211918\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
nice try to justify it, but it really doesnt fly.
and some very carefully chosen images by Leaf to promote the back and make it look a better choice.

sorry - but masking/ cropping the back brings back in the lens crop factor we've finally gotten away from with full frame 645 3:4 sensors. Lenses are at last operating as they are meant to be, not some random reduced inner area, to save wafer production costs.  

yes you can stitch with this cigar shape sensor, and 3 vertical stitches of this back on an Alpa/Horseman/Cambo typically with 18mm horizontal movement each way, will yield 56x72, but that's zero overlap - a realistic 2mm overlap would be 56x68. However just two vertical stitches in the P65+ Phase will yield 54x76, with plenty of overlap, and be less shots, quicker + less work.

I'd prefer to stitch with the Phase, but you may do 4+ shots stitching and the permutations are endless there, so ymmv. (In fact I'd far prefer not to stitch and have a 3:4 image directly)

Leaf have thrown a weird pitch here, and nobody knows what to make of it. I appreciate some have brand loyalty, but its taking a lot of head scratching to find a broadly justifiable reason why the majority of digital pros who are only recently settled around the 3:4 format would want to change to something distinctly less useful.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: berg on July 31, 2008, 09:51:45 am
Quote
its just bs.
 i will not go in deeper, but i simply cant stand this miss information about cf. as i couldnt from the beginning. nothing changed. it was a big problem with shift lenses and it still is,- and i hope  it wont go on with the new dalsa. i personally know many users which gave back there a75 backs, some several times,  some in the last months and what a couple of  their dists where telling me about this is just horrible. but as i said: i dont want to insist once more, dont want to disturb the party.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211970\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Don´t get to hyped up about it. You can´t run away from facts. And what i cant stand is people insinuating that problems solved will reappear as if nothing had chanced, and the blindfolded belief in a company.
I would like facts and not what someone thinks.
I have owned and used Aptus 22, Aptus 75, Aptus 75s, AFi 7. I now own and use AFi 7 and Aptus 75. The Aptus 75 showing some centerfold but nothing to worry about in post. I actually like it so much that i bought it 3 weeks ago as a refurb. It will defenately be a keeper as i have not seen a bettter file from either sinar or phase.
What i am more worried about is the AFi. As i staded earlier on in another post. The build quality is somewhat lacking and i really thougt that the manual schneider linses were better than they are. Those lenses cant resolve moere than 22 MP, and are canon like to look at compared to Hasselblad H lenses wich i used for 2 years. I know that the new AFD lenses are better, they
just dont have the same guality about them. I find myself shotting alpa more and more, even whith jobs that might be more comfortable with a mirrorreflex.
And by the way i allso know tons of people who shoots Leaf and Sinar and Phase and Hasselblad,
hell i even have a friend whoes soon plays football with hasselblads CEO´s son. But that doesnt make me an expert.
best
berg
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: woof75 on July 31, 2008, 09:57:47 am
I have no idea whats wrong with a lens crop, just buy a wider lens, unless of course you want super wide. There's nothing written in stone that a 55mm say has to produce a certain angle of view on 645 format. Also your cropping out the crappy part of the lens anyway, I have a 1.3 crop factor back and it's more than fine with me.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: gwhitf on July 31, 2008, 10:05:56 am
At this point in time, I doubt there will ever be a square chip, but I'd like to make a case why square was so useful during film days. If you were a commercial photographer, shooting for clients, (clients that many times change their minds), and say you were shooting for an ad that was roughly vertical 8.5x11. Say that ad was to run in multiple publications. Say that that ad would change sizes slightly, depending on the size and format of each publication, thus forcing this ad to be "repurposed" as they say, for each publication.

So you have this one image that you shot, that will now be used in five different sized ads. And as we all know, most photographers like to fill the frame, and compose appropriately.

If you'd shot the job on a square Hassie, the AD would simply recrop the image for each magazine, and there would be TONS of extra room on the sides, to go get more image. There'd never be that dreaded phone call at 4:59pm, (before you left on another job the next day), saying, "Uh, is there any more image on the side of this frame? Uh, could you clone some?" Or, in those days, the phone call would be more like, "Uh, we had to order an expensive dye transfer print, and then hire a retoucher to build in bleed, because you shot the image so tight". And then he'd hang up, pissed.

So, with FF 645, things are relatively OK, but with this Leaf crop, (or Canon/Nikon crop), I'm all the time feeling this "squeeze" when you're shooting vertical. You fill the vertical part appropriately, but then there's not enough extra frame on the side, so then, you scoot back, and then there's this voice in your head saying, "Jesus, there's way too much dead space above the guy's head".

In short, 2x3 proportion = Bad News for a commercial photographer.

Again, who are these companies consulting with in advance? Only weekend-warrior landscape photographers?
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: James R Russell on July 31, 2008, 10:11:58 am
Yair,

Who is this camera marketed to  . . . Landscape guys or everyone?

Yes, in horizontal the 2:3 widescreen look is somewhat impressive.  It's when you go vertical that it all gets confusing.

This format thing has been argued by a lot of people for a long time.

Actually, up until today I would bet nearly everyone that sells medium format has discussed how much better a 4:3 crop vs. a 2:3 crop is for vertical page formats.  In fact I would bet the argument was quite vigorous in favor of 4:3, especially for high pixel count backs whos primary purpose in life is for large print produciton.

(http://russellrutherford.com/mf_crops.jpg)

I've shot a billion 2:3 images in vertical and unless I completely black the viewfinder and the lcd off to around 4:3, I'm always shooting too tight.

I bet I've grafted in extra sides to 2:3 images about a billion times and I can promise you it ain't no fun.

Or I shoot without a mask and just when I'm at the point of everything looks right, I then have to remember to take 6 steps backs which makes everything different, from the way the lens pullls focus (or lack of) to the way the lens just looks.

This image is the perfect example.  When you shoot it's pretty, but cropping to page size it doesn't work well, so I'm back to putting in more sides.

(http://www.russellrutherford.com/35_crops.jpg)

Now I could somewhat understand the rotating sensor, 2:3 crop thing if it was a variable crop and it automatically blacked out the viewfinder (and the lcd) but this looks like another medium format fix where I pull out black tape and make my own crops.

For 7 grand I guess I'll put black tape on the camera, but for 40 grand, that's asking a lot.

JR


Quote
Thanks David, here below are a few images that help in visualising the size and the achievable crops from the new sensor:

(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/56577Picture%206.jpg)


BR

Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211956\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: James R Russell on July 31, 2008, 10:18:50 am
Quote
At this point in time, I doubt there will ever be a square chip, but I'd like to make a case why square was so useful during film days. If you were a commercial photographer, shooting for clients, (clients that many times change their minds), and say you were shooting for an ad that was roughly vertical 8.5x11. Say that ad was to run in multiple publications. Say that that ad would change sizes slightly, depending on the size and format of each publication, thus forcing this ad to be "repurposed" as they say, for each publication.

So you have this one image that you shot, that will now be used in five different sized ads. And as we all know, most photographers like to fill the frame, and compose appropriately.

If you'd shot the job on a square Hassie, the AD would simply recrop the image for each magazine, and there would be TONS of extra room on the sides, to go get more image. There'd never be that dreaded phone call at 4:59pm, (before you left on another job the next day), saying, "Uh, is there any more image on the side of this frame? Uh, could you clone some?" Or, in those days, the phone call would be more like, "Uh, we had to order an expensive dye transfer print, and then hire a retoucher to build in bleed, because you shot the image so tight". And then he'd hang up, pissed.

So, with FF 645, things are relatively OK, but with this Leaf crop, (or Canon/Nikon crop), I'm all the time feeling this "squeeze" when you're shooting vertical. You fill the vertical part appropriately, but then there's not enough extra frame on the side, so then, you scoot back, and then there's this voice in your head saying, "Jesus, there's way too much dead space above the guy's head".

In short, 2x3 proportion = Bad News for a commercial photographer.

Again, who are these companies consulting with in advance? Only weekend-warrior landscape photographers?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212039\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I tell you one thing that really gets me about 2:3, when I look at a vertical 2:3 it looks  . . . how can I put this politely . . . well I guess I can't . . . inexpensive.

I just see all those flicker pages and all those millions of images sent to me by assistants moving to Silverlake and Brooklyn that want my opinion.

My first opinion on looking at their D40 images is, take 10 steps back, or buy a roll of black masking tape.

I am still fascinated by who asked for this?   I mean we had the 2:3 in about a billion Canons and Nikons and all for bargain basement prices.

Who is asking for a widescreen medium format back?

This either has to be a cost thing,  or some kind of secret handshake contractural arrangement where nobody gets a FF sensor for 2 years except Phase.

But we'll never really know because medium format is like the Masons (no disrespect meant to Masons), where everything is only told by word of mouth.

I promise you in the next 10 days some dealer will tell me they heard from the wife of a friend who knows the guy that parks the car for the head designer at Dalsa that the reason this is a 2:3 chip is because homeland security only allows one full frame sensor per country.

(Whatever Full Frame means)*

*end of disclaimer



JR


Edit:  Speaking of secret handshakes, the medium format companies should all get together and meet at the Holiday Inn at the Des Moines airport, (this is where Dick Cheny hides out) and make a secret pact to not release any information before 1.  The product is ready   2. The product has a suggested retail price  (not including anything "value added")  3.  All the details are in order and ready to realease.

They should then fly around the world, walk into every major rental company and "loan" them their complete kit.

That way maybe somebody could actually rent one and try it without having to sign a value added agreement.

Then they should go to Chase Manhattan and figure out a way to finance these things  (maybe ask Dick when they bump into him in Des Moines.  I'm sure he has some friends in finance.)
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: uaiomex on July 31, 2008, 01:27:41 pm
James:
All these late news seem to me like a few secret handshakes among chip and back makers.  

Eduardo
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: eronald on July 31, 2008, 03:24:50 pm
Quote
Edmund,

A regretable mishap for which I have no problem apologizing a second time. Any next trip to Tokyo planned?

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211945\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'll need to go to Tokyo again, I don't know when. I'll make an appointment by email this time

Edmund
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: eronald on July 31, 2008, 03:29:22 pm
Quote
JR
Edit:  Speaking of secret handshakes, the medium format companies should all get together and meet at the Holiday Inn at the Des Moines airport, (this is where Dick Cheny hides out) and make a secret pact to not release any information before 1.  The product is ready   2. The product has a suggested retail price  (not including anything "value added")  3.  All the details are in order and ready to realease.

Why not come out with it, straight ! The MF guys should all go hunting with Dick Cheyney.

Edmund
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: James R Russell on July 31, 2008, 03:45:07 pm
Quote
I'm not for or against that new sensor. But I would like to add something about 2:3 portraits/images:

Mona Lisa by Leonardo DaVinci is 2:3 (77x53cm)
Madonna dell Granduca by Raffael is 2:3 (84x55cm)
The Inspiration of Saint Matthew by Caravaggio is 2:3 (292x186cm)

If anyone wants I can add more.

Best,
Johannes
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212111\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Those artists are not working anymore.

And if they were they would be cropped if they ran on the front of a magazine.

Actually all the "new" Mona Lisas are cropped.

(http://www.studiolo.org/Mona/images/BookCovers/NewYorkerMonaMonica.gif)
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: woof75 on July 31, 2008, 04:15:50 pm
Juergen Teller seems to do quite well with the 35mm aspect ratio no?
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: PdF on July 31, 2008, 04:25:17 pm
3 new MFDB (Hasselblad, Leaf & PhaseOne). No news about live-video.

PdF
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: TMARK on July 31, 2008, 04:28:13 pm
Quote
Juergen Teller seems to do quite well with the 35mm aspect ratio no?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212130\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So does T-Bone but their style isn't really for beauty or portrait, and no AD is telling T-Bone or Jurgen T what to do.  

I've learned to live with it, but I do fill the frame in portrait when shooting 35, and I always forget to back off.  It has caused problems.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: Rob C on July 31, 2008, 04:59:07 pm
Quote
So does T-Bone but their style isn't really for beauty or portrait, and no AD is telling T-Bone or Jurgen T what to do. 

I've learned to live with it, but I do fill the frame in portrait when shooting 35, and I always forget to back off.  It has caused problems.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212135\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes, there is little doubt that 35mm vertical shots of heads do not work very well at all - for me, at least! - but on the other hand, the 35mm horizontals are pretty damn near perfect on head shots, again, for me. The problem is more than just the standard shape of magazine pages, it is also an aesthetic problem of the format in isolation: the dynamic doesn´t always work in both dimensions.

All things being equal, which they certainly are not, the square offers a pretty good compromise, but having said that, I expect that Mamiya replaced a lot of Haselblads just because it DID offer a taller option for heads/covers and also more reasonable pricing for similar quality.

I really was impressed by James´s comparison with digital and film - digital does indeed seem to represent a sort of mad-house of matching and not matching.

Rob C
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: rainer_v on July 31, 2008, 06:24:50 pm
Quote
Don´t get to hyped up about it. You can´t run away from facts. And what i cant stand is people insinuating that problems solved will reappear as if nothing had chanced, and the blindfolded belief in a company.
I would like facts and not what someone thinks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212031\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i am sorry to come back a last time on this, but i cannot allow you to talk about my postings as if i would be hysteric.

i think the 2:3 leaf is very tempting for wide angle work, although it might be not everybodys taste.
unfortunately the cf problem seems not to be solved with the current 33mp chips in many cases.
so i simply hope that it will not go on with this new backs, which are quite interesting otherwise.
i will be in the first line to test an afi10 as soon the first units become available in munich.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: narikin on July 31, 2008, 06:55:54 pm
Quote
(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/90830Picture%205.jpg)

I found that graphic rather confusing , so here's a version I made comparing them in another way, which shows the difference more clearly - a little on the length, but a lot on the height.

blue is Phase P65+ Red is Leaf AFi 10

(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/63510Phase%20vs%20Leaf%20v3small_.jpg)
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: narikin on July 31, 2008, 07:05:02 pm
oh and once again, to those who are posting about 2:3 being good: the new leaf is not 2:3 its 2:3.1

crop off the .1 and you are back to the phase length (see the above graphic) and may as well have that back and the extra headroom to crop as you prefer - same Mp, same image, indeed same sensor pitch from same manufacturer!
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: pss on July 31, 2008, 07:55:16 pm
Quote
Thanks David, here below are a few images that help in visualising the size and the achievable crops from the new sensor:

(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/56577Picture%206.jpg)

(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/90830Picture%205.jpg)

And here is a table with some popular crops (in horizontal view) and the actual sizes in pixels:

(http://www.imagehut.eu/images/31702Picture5.jpg)


Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211956\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

that's all great but the P65 is not 48x36 it is 54x40.4...so (as with most sensors that are 3:4) you get almost the same width but quite a bit more height.....it is much easier to just crop the top and bottom from the file to make a nice panorama.....

hey i am sure leaf did their homework and their targetgroup is not commercial photographers (who have been asking desperately to get a 3:4 DSLR or at least findercrops of some sort for years) but actual landscape shooters! who knew that market was so large.....

if this is all really for wiiiiiide shots, i wonder why the hassle of making it rotate?
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: tho_mas on July 31, 2008, 09:15:34 pm
Quote
that's all great but the P65 is not 48x36 it is 54x40.4
I think the table just shows examples of crops made with the Leaf chip and its resolution with regard to different proportions. Also there is no 35 DSLR with 54MP ;-)
The outline shows the proportions of the P65+.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: EricWHiss on August 01, 2008, 01:25:46 am
Quote
Don´t get to hyped up about it. You can´t run away from facts. And what i cant stand is people insinuating that problems solved will reappear as if nothing had chanced, and the blindfolded belief in a company.
I would like facts and not what someone thinks.
I have owned and used Aptus 22, Aptus 75, Aptus 75s, AFi 7. I now own and use AFi 7 and Aptus 75. The Aptus 75 showing some centerfold but nothing to worry about in post. I actually like it so much that i bought it 3 weeks ago as a refurb. It will defenately be a keeper as i have not seen a bettter file from either sinar or phase.
What i am more worried about is the AFi. As i staded earlier on in another post. The build quality is somewhat lacking and i really thougt that the manual schneider linses were better than they are. Those lenses cant resolve moere than 22 MP, and are canon like to look at compared to Hasselblad H lenses wich i used for 2 years. I know that the new AFD lenses are better, they
just dont have the same guality about them. I find myself shotting alpa more and more, even whith jobs that might be more comfortable with a mirrorreflex.
And by the way i allso know tons of people who shoots Leaf and Sinar and Phase and Hasselblad,
hell i even have a friend whoes soon plays football with hasselblads CEO´s son. But that doesnt make me an expert.
best
berg
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212031\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Your experience with the schneider lenses does not match up to mine but I don't have a son that plays football with anyone that works with Hasselblad let alone their CEO. Oh and I'm not "running away from that fact"  
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: berg on August 01, 2008, 11:15:04 am
Quote
Your experience with the schneider lenses does not match up to mine but I don't have a son that plays football with anyone that works with Hasselblad let alone their CEO. Oh and I'm not "running away from that fact" 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212249\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hello Eric
If you did, you would know that Hasselblad is giving them away for free, and i havent even tried their backs and probably will not in the future.  

If you can show me a Schneider 40/3.5 for AFi/hy6 without barreldistortion and CA, then i will give you a good price or ill give you mine and a beer when you are in Berlin or Copenhagen.

Facts!.............well a long time ago people thoght it was a fact that the world was flat.  
best
berg
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: BJL on August 01, 2008, 11:52:19 am
Quote
I'm not for or against that new sensor. But I would like to add something about 2:3 portraits/images:

Mona Lisa by Leonardo DaVinci is 2:3 (77x53cm)
Madonna dell Granduca by Raffael is 2:3 (84x55cm)
The Inspiration of Saint Matthew by Caravaggio is 2:3 (292x186cm)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212111\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sure, there are 3:2 portraits (and even ones beyond 2:1 for full body portraits). On the other hand there are many 5:4 and 4:3 landscapes: a lot of Ansel Adam's work for example, and he was willing and able to crop heavily in order to improve a composition.

But when I looked through large collections of art books that give painting dimensions and studied the distribution of aspect ratios:
- The great majority are between 5:4 and 3:2, with the most common shape ("mode") being about 4:3 for verticals, 7:5 for horizontals.
- Even with horizontals, the great majority of paintings in my survey were a bit less wide than 3:2, and a bit less wide than 3:2 was more common than shapes wider than 3:2.
- Outlier shapes seem more common than with photographs, running from square and 6:5 to 2:1, 3:1 and beyond: canvas shape choices are more flexible than film frame shape choices, and there are no "image circles" to work within.


Surely a good choice for a photographer working with a single camera is a shape near to that particular photographer's most common choice, or in the middle of the range of his or her common choices, to minimize percentage loss to cropping in either direction.

Those who must suffer under AD's that might wish to change an image from horizontal to vertical or vice versa probably benefit from a fairly square shape. Or otherwise, might need to learn "shape bracketing"!

With film there was an additional constraint, as there was a big cost advantage to staying with the existing 135 roll film with its 24mm emulsion width. Within that constraint, the wider 3:2 shape of 36x24mm includes as crops all less wide shapes like 5:4 (30x24mm) and 4:3 (32x24mm). Changing to a less wide frame shape could only be achieved by effectively imposing a crop at the sides of every frame compared to the 36x24mm option.

120 roll film went mostly in the opposite direction with frame shapes, but perhaps for similar reasons: even when using the 56mm roll width as the long dimension was sufficient, greater flexibility was achieved from a greater value for the other dimension, so it makes sense that sizes bottomed at 56x42mm and 4:3 (645) rather than going down to about 56x37mm for 3:2 shape.

But we are getting the last and smallest of these shapes in MF now with the Leaf/Dalsa sensor, probably due to sensor cost constraints.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: EricWHiss on August 01, 2008, 11:56:51 am
Quote
Hello Eric
If you did, you would know that Hasselblad is giving them away for free, and i havent even tried their backs and probably will not in the future.  

If you can show me a Schneider 40/3.5 for AFi/hy6 without barreldistortion and CA, then i will give you a good price or ill give you mine and a beer when you are in Berlin or Copenhagen.

Facts!.............well a long time ago people thoght it was a fact that the world was flat.  
best
berg
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212312\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Actually their backs are pretty good, and I think their distortion correction software is a good idea. btw - I shot this image with the schneider 40mm f/3.5  - sorry for the crap resize for web but still...

And yeah, I really was hoping for something more square in the newly announced sensors - the new Leaf is not for me!
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: Dustbak on August 01, 2008, 11:59:24 am
Brilliant shot to prove the lack of CA & Barrel distortion, you sure you don't work for a communication agency?  
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: EricWHiss on August 01, 2008, 12:06:13 pm
Quote
Brilliant shot to prove the lack of CA & Barrel distortion, you sure you don't work for a communication agency? 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212333\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Thanks!  I really need to move away from art and do something commercial.....
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: berg on August 01, 2008, 04:37:39 pm
Quote
Actually their backs are pretty good, and I think their distortion correction software is a good idea. btw - I shot this image with the schneider 40mm f/3.5  - sorry for the crap resize for web but still...

And yeah, I really was hoping for something more square in the newly announced sensors - the new Leaf is not for me!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212331\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



Eric nice shot, it reminds me of an artist called Kirsten Justesen.
The black and white photo is actually a Box with the photo inside, and has been exhibited in New York recently.

[attachment=7752:attachment][attachment=7753:attachment]
courtesy the artist.

and Eric, there is no beer for you.
best
berg
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: bryanyc on August 01, 2008, 06:46:39 pm
Quote
Eric nice shot, it reminds me of an artist called Kirsten Justesen.
The black and white photo is actually a Box with the photo inside, and has been exhibited in New York recently.

Ruth Bernhard did a wonderful and seminal series of the nude in a box in the early 60's which has inspired many others since.

Now just look at that wide format!  
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: eronald on August 01, 2008, 06:50:15 pm
Quote
Actually their backs are pretty good, and I think their distortion correction software is a good idea. btw - I shot this image with the schneider 40mm f/3.5  - sorry for the crap resize for web but still...

And yeah, I really was hoping for something more square in the newly announced sensors - the new Leaf is not for me!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212331\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Nice image.

Edmund
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: berg on August 01, 2008, 07:37:50 pm
Quote
Ruth Bernhard did a wonderful and seminal series of the nude in a box in the early 60's which has inspired many others since.

Now just look at that wide format!   
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212433\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Agreed, that format looks much more pleasing  
I think Ruth´s project has some very aesthetic values. She allso followed a tradition of exploring the nude, where as Kirstens box had a more political agenda. It is from the 60´s and it is the artist herself in the pictures. It´s not meant to be a beautypicture. I read it as a woman konfined in a box, like suppresion of femminen sexuality ect.
Funny how Ruth Bernhard denied any relation to sexuality in her work. But beautifull it is.
Sorry for the off topic nonsens. I think leaf has made the new square, but for now my money are on phase.
 
best
berg
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: bryanyc on August 01, 2008, 07:48:24 pm
Berg,

It's not Bernhard in the pictures herself, it is a model she often worked with.

At any rate, I was discussing the new leaf format in the owner of a camera store in NYC today and we both had the same idea about the format: that one of the determining (or limiting) issues for the proportions might be the rotation.  If the frame would be square or "squarer" it might not rotate inside the back.  
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: berg on August 01, 2008, 08:09:01 pm
Quote
Berg,

It's not Bernhard in the pictures herself, it is a model she often worked with.

At any rate, I was discussing the new leaf format in the owner of a camera store in NYC today and we both had the same idea about the format: that one of the determining (or limiting) issues for the proportions might be the rotation.  If the frame would be square or "squarer" it might not rotate inside the back.   
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212451\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Bryan i know it is not Ruth in the picture, i was referring to Kirstens work.... sorry about my english.....
You are probably right about the sensor not beeing able to rotate.....very interesting. I allso think there is some economy at play here. Leaf and Phase representetives have told me that the more square the sensor is the more expensive it is to produce. Something to do with how they cut the cake(waffer or whatever its called). The slimmer the chip is the easyer it is to get a got one from the waffer. You can probably also place more on the same space.
All of this must make it cheaper to produce.
best
berg
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: pprdigital on August 01, 2008, 09:47:20 pm
Quote
Berg,

It's not Bernhard in the pictures herself, it is a model she often worked with.

At any rate, I was discussing the new leaf format in the owner of a camera store in NYC today and we both had the same idea about the format: that one of the determining (or limiting) issues for the proportions might be the rotation.  If the frame would be square or "squarer" it might not rotate inside the back.   
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212451\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I must be missing something, but why would you need to rotate a square sensor?

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: rainer_v on August 01, 2008, 09:50:15 pm
Quote
I must be missing something, but why would you need to rotate a square sensor?

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212468\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

maybe a round sensor ....
you could rotate it during the exposure, couldnt you?
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: berg on August 01, 2008, 10:32:22 pm
Quote
I must be missing something, but why would you need to rotate a square sensor?

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212468\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



Because it wont be square but "sguarer" as Bryan writes.
best
berg
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: Fritzer on August 02, 2008, 05:30:49 pm
Quote
...., and maybe because golden ratio absolutely doesn't matter in case of frame proportion
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211483\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Which is true .

As for the upcoming Leaf 2:3 format, that's good news. It means that there is no point upgrading my A75 anytime soon  .
2:3 is just some relic from back then, when some moron decided to double the number of perforation holes used by movie cameras and made it the standard for 35mm still cameras.
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: bryanyc on August 02, 2008, 06:46:02 pm
Quote
2:3 is just some relic from back then, when some moron decided to double the number of perforation holes used by movie cameras and made it the standard for 35mm still cameras.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212633\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hey, you callin' Oscar a moron?  
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: thsinar on August 04, 2008, 05:38:18 pm
 

Quote
I must be missing something, but why would you need to rotate a square sensor?

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212468\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: bryanyc on August 06, 2008, 11:55:06 am
Alright wise guys..

My point was that the potential reason that the new sensor that leaf is using is of 2:3.1 proportions is that  the rotation of the sensor inside the back of a more square proportion would not clear the sides of the back.   And because you are so visual I drew you a picture.  Cheers.


[attachment=7805:attachment]
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: uaiomex on August 06, 2008, 03:30:46 pm
This was my comment too on July 29th just after the anouncement.
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=26907 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26907)

It immediately made me think that this new format was just a physical limitation for the rotating sensor operation. If this is so, why not to add a turntable-like round mount? It may look funny but if wisely designed, it could well look kind of cool.

Eduardo


Quote
Alright wise guys..

My point was that the potential reason that the new sensor that leaf is using is of 2:3.1 proportions is that  the rotation of the sensor inside the back of a more square proportion would not clear the sides of the back.   And because you are so visual I drew you a picture.  Cheers.
[attachment=7805:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=213420\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: 56 MP Leaf AFi10
Post by: E_Edwards on August 06, 2008, 04:16:10 pm
I think you are both quite right. This is a good argument for a square chip, 56x56mm or whatever fits inside the outer case, no need for rotation, no need for unnecessary rotating mechanisms and the freedom to crop (or not). Then they could devise electronic masking of the chip (in sync with the viewfinder), for those who want rectangular shapes. It would satisfy everybody and I guess it would be tremendously popular.


Edward