Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: eronald on July 23, 2008, 03:58:23 pm
-
Here is an image from my P45+. This problem occurs every once and then ruining a shot here and a shot there, maybe 3 per4GB card full.
My question: Is there any MF solution which is as reliable as Canon ? That just makes a picture when one presses the shutter ? Without dark streaks, color bands, centerfolds or other artefacts ?
(http://edmundronald.googlepages.com/eiffel3.jpg)
Edmund
-
deleted
Edmund
-
I have the same thing happen o n my p45+ about 1 photo every 300 or so I get that magenta thing at the bottom. It is usually when I am shooting as fast as the camera can handle. It hasn't caused me any problems though because it is so rare.
-
I got the file before you took it down.
It has the purple in CO V4 and Lightroom.
The file info shows the camera set +3 exposure compensation. Is that correct? Curious why such a setting. What lens? A manual focus lens? No lens info.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210240\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
(http://edmundronald.googlepages.com/Eiffel4.jpg)
AFAIK the file is fairly decently exposed, it comes up in C1 with +0 exposure.
The lens is a 110mm F2 Hasselblad lens, totally manual of course, manual stop down, and the camera was set to manual exposure if I remember rightly. I was testing the lens and this happens to be the only image where the people in the frame had the expressions I wanted - argh. On the other hand it renders nicely to BW.
My Phase/Mamiya does this lateral tinting regularly but unpredictably, whatever the lens used. I think I'm going to move to Contax because this dead system seems the most solid, and lenses are affordable.
Simplify:
Yes, it seems to happen always when I'm in a hurry to catch an expression.
Edmund
-
My Aptus does a similar thing every once in a while. At least one shot in a session is completely green. It's just a thing I've decided to live with - like the cat who drags in a dead mouse once a month or my girlfriend who is completely nuts on rare occasions. It's life.
-
my girlfriend who is completely nuts on rare occasions. It's life.
The answer is simple, marry her and then she'll be nuts 24/7, or you will be given time!
Justin.
-
The answer is simple, marry her and then she'll be nuts 24/7, or you will be given time!
Justin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210253\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I get it a lot but usually the Whole frame is Purple on my P30.
Wanted to add that it has happen to me tethered and I have only used the camera once with cards.. I usually always shoot tethered.
As some one else mentioned I usually get it when I bang off many images in a row...
That is my only doubt since this whole MFDB bout I have been on..
I had Canons for many years and never had anything gowrong accept the shutter went out after well over 100,000 images...
And the occasional firewire port replacement. But I never worried on location that i would die on me unless I dropped it or something.
What stinks is another Back and body to be sure is too expensive and heavy.
I always had a 5d to back up the 1DsMII on locations.
Now it will have to be the 1DsMII or if I buy the MIII here soon for back-up.
Stinks having to take 2 differnent systems and batteries etc.. around while traveling...arg!
I wanted to add also That I am totaly happy with the P30 so far except for the recent hic-up but things happen...:+}
I hopefully will have a P30+ by december and will keep the P30 for back-up...
Just waiting to hear about those Leaf shutter lens
Snook
-
Snook -
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one on whom they (the backs) go nuts
I get it now - it's a timing-related issue. As soon as I start warming up and clicking away the frames will burn purple; if images are made in the calm of my dealer's studio they'll all be clean.
This is one of those cases where a forum discussion allows one to quickly pinpoint the circumstances where a problem occurs.
Edmund
I get it a lot but usually the Whole frame is Purple on my P30.
As some one else mentioned I usually get it when I bang off many images in a row...
That is my only doubt since this whole MFDB bout I have been on..
I had Canons for many years and never had anything gowrong accept the shutter went out after well over 100,000 images...
And the occasional firewire port replacement. But I never worried on location that i would die on me unless I dropped it or something.
What stinks is another Back and body to be sure is too expensive and heavy.
I always had a 5d to back up the 1DsMII on locations.
Now it will have to be the 1DsMII or if I buy the MIII here soon for back-up.
Stinks having to take 2 differnent systems and batteries etc.. around while traveling...arg!
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210255\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Here is an image from my P45+. This problem occurs every once and then ruining a shot here and a shot there, maybe 3 per4GB card full.
Hi Edmund. Sorry to hear about your P45+ difficulties. You've definitely been snake bit.
I have never seen the problem you are seeing, but along with the other posters that have seen this when they shoot fast, my experience might also be a clue. I use my P45+ for slow, deliberate landscape shooting. There are often 10's of seconds to minutes between my shots. Occasionally when I am shooting a series of shots for a stiched panorama, I might shoot faster, but my total shots for the stich is rarely more than four. So you have two or three data points that might correlate with fast shooting, and my data point where the problem doesn't happen in slow deliberate shooting. Pretty slim data, I agree.
I wonder if it's temperature related. Maybe when you reel of a rapid series of shots, the internal electronics heat up and exceeds some internal temp spec. You might be able to come up with some simple experiments to see if you can repeat this by hammering out a long series of shots. At least see if the purple cast becomes more repeatable in this case. If it does, you should be able to come up with various approaches to modify the back temperature a bit to see if the rate of problem occurence goes up or down. Just thinking out loud.
Good luck.
P.S. I just saw your latest post (the one right above mine), and see that you've isolated the problem. I guess the next question is whether they can do anything about it, or is this just a limitation of the back. Surely you can't be the only one shooting a series of closely spaced shots.
-
Snook -
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one on whom they (the backs) go nuts
I get it now - it's a timing-related issue. As soon as I start warming up and clicking away the frames will burn purple; if images are made in the calm of my dealer's studio they'll all be clean.
This is one of those cases where a forum discussion allows one to quickly pinpoint the circumstances where a problem occurs.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210259\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Edmund,
Man, you've had more issues with cameras, lenses and backs than anyone I know.
I would suggest spending a few days isolating the problems because I use all of my equipment like I stole it and I've had a few things go south, but nothing like the stuff your getting.
JR
-
I also believe it might be temp related. There was another post on a user with a P30 that was getting a vertical line on the images on the side of the battery. He was taking long exposures however.
The 45+ can get hot with a lot of shooting, just noticed this the other day. Also wonder if it's an issue with a particular brand of card.
I have some problems with the older Lexar cards in the 45+. They work, but sometimes I seem to get a longer than normal delay in file writes.
Paul C
-
I used to get problems like this with some brands of memory cards,but not with Sandisk.
Could it be card related ? Has anyone had this problem with Sandisk ?
-
Edmund,
Man, you've had more issues with cameras, lenses and backs than anyone I know.
I would suggest spending a few days isolating the problems because I use all of my equipment like I stole it and I've had a few things go south, but nothing like the stuff your getting.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210274\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Mamiya issues seem to be biting me more now, but then I wasn't using my back fast up to now because I hadn't got the hang of it, while now I'm moving into the production phase. One thing I did notice from the beginning was that often the first shot after switching the camera on was wrecked - overexposed.
Another interesting quirk of the Mamiya is shutter speed reset. I was doing night exposures on the Empire State and in the space of a session the Mamiya must have reset about ten times to 30 sec. Very unpleasant. At the Eiffel tower it reset a couple of times too, but not so catastrophically. I think both the Empire State and the Eiffel Tower have especially strong EMI, as they are radio towers. I know that even my Canon pictures of the Empire State have stripes al over them !
Edmund
-
I have not had any problems like that with my 45+, either tethered or to the card and I have been shooting as fast as I can sometimes. I am using an H1. I wonder if the card speed has anything to do with it. I think they are optimized for the Extreme IV sandisk
Or I wonder if that could be a shutter issue?
-
Here is an image from my P45+. This problem occurs every once and then ruining a shot here and a shot there, maybe 3 per4GB card full.
My question: Is there any MF solution which is as reliable as Canon ? That just makes a picture when one presses the shutter ? Without dark streaks, color bands, centerfolds or other artefacts ?
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210229\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Have you contacted Phase?
Is it a shutter lag issue?
Does it happen with different M645 bodies?
Your comment about the MFDB's performance in the heat-of-battle vs. the calm of a dealer's showroom is interesting.
-rm
-
Mamiya has a funky button, in my estimation, that plays havoc with the Leaf. The "auto exposure", if held down for a couple seconds will make all subsequent exposures vastly overexposed...to the point that they are unusable. In the heat of the battle often times you don't know you've hit the button until looking down at the screen and realizing the past ten shots are toast. You have to turn off the camera to reset it back to normal.
You can move that button to the front of the camera but it functions in the same way. I eventually had had enough and fashioned a little plastic cap over the button so it can not be accessed and problem solved.
-
For what it's worth I have used the P45 and currently the P45+ with the AFD II and III. I've never had any sort of problem like this even when shooting 20-30 images as fast as I can. I do use Sandisk Extreme IV cards.
Bill
-
For what its worth my P30+ has been rock solid. Never a problem shooting fast to Extreme III and IV cards, as well as Ultra II cards.
-
I´ve seen the exact same thing shooting a p30 on an H2. It happened every 100 shots or so. Pretty annoying. Oh and we were shooting pretty quickly.
-
I have had no problems at all shooting P45+ on Mamiya AFD into SanDisk Ultra and Estreme cards.
-
Sorry to hear you're having more issues, Edmund.
I had no such issues either, with my P45+, on Hassy V or Hassy H.
If you can reproduce the problem, and if I were in your shoes, I would push for (another) repair or replacement. You shouldn't have to worry about how quickly you're shooting when you are taking photographs--either the back should take the shot or it shouldn't, IMHO.
-Brad
-
eronald,
You may want to try shooting tethered. Shoot as fast as you can and for say 100 frames. I think you won't get that purple streak.
-
Seems to me it could be a CF card issue. I got weird colors like that every once in a while when I was testing a Phase back. The culprit was a particular brand of CF cards. I never had a problem with my speedy Lexar cards.
John
-
eronald,
You may want to try shooting tethered. Shoot as fast as you can and for say 100 frames. I think you won't get that purple streak.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210326\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No the magenta streak will still be there. I get it regularly with a p30+ H1 shooting tethered and very quickly. Actually I usually get a few every shoot. Though yesterday seemed to be an exception to that.
-
I've had a file like that once but green instead of red and it turned out to be a loose firewire cable. Only did it a few times but never after I discovered the problem. My Phase P20 is really solid. I'll bet its something like your card not being in all the way or something that is exasperated by your gripping the camera harder when excited. I've had similar problems with 1Ds and when you talk about cameras don't forget all the problems people had with the 1DsII's and loosing files. Bottom line, you have to test out your stuff, try different combinations of things from cards to lenses, to really know your gear.
-
That there is a shutter synchro error. Your lens is not communicating effectively with the back during that capture which is a result of shooting too fast, as you guys have pointed out throughout this thread. I see it most with the RZ, rarely with the H1. You'll have to slow down a tad bit to avoid it or as others have said, just live with it. However the problem can occasionally "stick" and end up screwing up a whole slew of shots. So pay attention to the screen on the back if the error actually even appears on there... or shoot tethered.
It is not an issue of Heat or bad cf cards as others mentioned. Just plain old camera electronics. Just be happy that you aren't using the RZ, it gets bad. Magenta AND GREEN, overlayed.double exp, type stuff. very artistic!
-
That there is a shutter synchro error. Your lens is not communicating effectively with the back during that capture which is a result of shooting too fast, as you guys have pointed out throughout this thread. I see it most with the RZ, rarely with the H1. You'll have to slow down a tad bit to avoid it or as others have said, just live with it. However the problem can occasionally "stick" and end up screwing up a whole slew of shots. So pay attention to the screen on the back if the error actually even appears on there... or shoot tethered.
It is not an issue of Heat or bad cf cards as others mentioned. Just plain old camera electronics. Just be happy that you aren't using the RZ, it gets bad. Magenta AND GREEN, overlayed.double exp, type stuff. very artistic!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210361\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If I had a camera and back that did this on a routine basis I would return every bit of it, or I would throw it off the roof. I'm serious.
Nothing would be as bad as have a pink and green frame of that one amazing moment and I'm sure that would the exact frame it would happen to.
I have to say out of a lot of frames with the p30 and the Contax I've had about a dozen half black frames, about 4 with a green line in them, but nothing routine, and that's out of a lot of frames.
On the P21, regardless of how fast I shoot I've never seen a bad frame.
Then again, Edmund have you cleaned and polished every contact from the lenses to the back and then gone into the dealer with the exact equipment and mixed and matched until you can isolate if it's your lens, your back, your body or jus the way the system is designed.
If it's a design flaw then the answer is to move on to other equipment, if it's just a mechanical issue the answer is to fix it.
Though I'm sure you know that.
JR
-
(http://edmundronald.googlepages.com/Eiffel4.jpg)
I was testing the lens and this happens to be the only image where the people in the frame had the expressions I wanted - argh. On the other hand it renders nicely to BW.
Simplify:
Yes, it seems to happen always when I'm in a hurry to catch an expression.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210242\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just put the faces on one of the other exposures that is correct. Bummer these things.
I have had them happen with my CF & Aptus but only with cameras that were totally manual, sync cords, older shutters, etc.. In most cases these are sync problems between back & shutter.
Symptoms with me were: My aptus delivered green halves of images & casts, the CF delivers magenta halves, fuzzy images & magenta streaks.
-
Just put the faces on one of the other exposures that is correct. Bummer these things.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210370\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Indeed. In the case of this shot it converts well to B&W so I can save it. Phew. Best street shot of the afternoon.
I think that based on what people have said on this thread, this intermittent stripe problem isn't limited to me, I'm just better at complaining first while others work around the issues silently.
I'm shooting Phase/Sandisk Extreme IV. People have seen this with H, has anyone seen the same issues with Contax ?
I'm going to spend some time cleaning and testing as James suggested.
Edmund
-
That there is a shutter synchro error. Your lens is not communicating effectively with the back during that capture which is a result of shooting too fast, as you guys have pointed out throughout this thread. I see it most with the RZ, rarely with the H1. You'll have to slow down a tad bit to avoid it or as others have said, just live with it. However the problem can occasionally "stick" and end up screwing up a whole slew of shots. So pay attention to the screen on the back if the error actually even appears on there... or shoot tethered.
It is not an issue of Heat or bad cf cards as others mentioned. Just plain old camera electronics. Just be happy that you aren't using the RZ, it gets bad. Magenta AND GREEN, overlayed.double exp, type stuff. very artistic!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210361\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I get the magenta and green split right down the centre from time to time
was told it was a CF card problem but then got it in tethered mode also
looks like it's a common electronic problem.
what a pain.
-
Here is an image from my P45+. This problem occurs every once and then ruining a shot here and a shot there, maybe 3 per4GB card full.
My question: Is there any MF solution which is as reliable as Canon ? That just makes a picture when one presses the shutter ? Without dark streaks, color bands, centerfolds or other artefacts ?
(http://edmundronald.googlepages.com/eiffel3.jpg)
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210229\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I too have seen this happen and I do believe P1 will tell you it appears that the camera is being shot to quickly and the buffer is being over run.
You should not ever see that with AF cameras and AF coupled lenses because it was explained to me by P1 Tech that the camera will not allow you to shot too quickly on a AF style camera body because it will not release the shutter. I demo and install these cameras everyday and I do not see this with AF cameras.
My experience has been when I had several P backs at a fashion shooter studio several years ago and he started seeing these. He was shooting V system 500 CM and ELM We really couldnot explain the issue or solve it. Later I was told that if we had a 555 ELD I would not see this. A week later I asked if we could bring a system back and show him we had solved the problems. We took a 555 and let him shoot and he could never out run the buffer because the camera would not release until the P1 back was ready. This is why sometimes you shoot and the camera will not release until the buffer frees up space.
We had the same problem at a demo with Nasa. They wanted to shoot as fast as the spec, so they set the camera to shoot as fast as the Hasselblad would allow. As it got to the 12 image, it over runs the buffer and you start to see corrupted images like these. They also had old ELM and EL cameras that fired remotely.
And we never see this with P21 or P21 Plus. We see photographers skip flashes all the time because they shoot faster than the pack is recycling.
Plus backs should not do this as often as non Plus backs because the buffer is twice as large.
I think you may want to try to isolate this with AF lens and then try the Hasselblad 110mm with adapter. This would also explain why the meta data is not there because this is a manual lens. I would bet that the problem could be only when using the manual lens on this AF camera.
I am going to try this later this morning with 2 Phase One 645 with P45+ and manual Hasselblad lens attached using Mamiya AF/Hasselblad lens adapter.
Also FYI, when I was at Phase One headquarters several years ago when the P45 was first being built, one of the engineers at P1 stated that all P1 P backs had been developed around the Sandisk technology. That is why P1 ships with Sandisk and the reason I always use and recommend these. I have seen many cards work fine too and I have never been able to determine that a bad card caused this.
But for anyone that experiences this with manual Hasselblad V system, 555 ELD or shooting slower after you have heard the ready confirmation beep will solve this issue.
Good luck Edmound, I know you will solve this as you are the most scientific member of this board. I will report my findings later today.
Chris Snipes
President
Image Productions,Inc
Phase One Expert
Phase One Test Studio Florida
Phase One Digital Command Center
www.imageproduction.com
chris@imageproduction.com
813-335-2473 Anytime
-
My Aptus does a similar thing every once in a while. At least one shot in a session is completely green. It's just a thing I've decided to live with - like the cat who drags in a dead mouse once a month or my girlfriend who is completely nuts on rare occasions. It's life.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210245\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Same here. My A65 on an RZ.
As you say, it happens once every now and again, teathered. No issues on CF's so far.
I just accept that any kind of digital/computer hardware will always have the odd furball, as it were.
-
Here is an image from my P45+. This problem occurs every once and then ruining a shot here and a shot there, maybe 3 per4GB card full.
My question: Is there any MF solution which is as reliable as Canon ? That just makes a picture when one presses the shutter ? Without dark streaks, color bands, centerfolds or other artefacts ?
(http://edmundronald.googlepages.com/eiffel3.jpg)
Edmund
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=210229\")
Edmund,
I have Doug Peterson, our tech, taking a look at your issue. He will be talking with Phase One to see what we can do to help you solve your problem. We will post our findings ASAP.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year[/url]
877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
-
Chris,
Thank you - somehow the news out of Atlanta always seems good
Edmund
Edmund,
I have Doug Peterson, our tech, taking a look at your issue. He will be talking with Phase One to see what we can do to help you solve your problem. We will post our findings ASAP.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210399\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Chris,
Thank you - somehow the news out of Atlanta always seems good
Edmund
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=210405\")
Well, don't thank anyone until you get an answer which solves your problem. I'll get back to you soon.
By the way, I'm out of the Miami Beach office. The news is often good out of here as well, but the news I'm thinking of concerns the bright sun and beautiful women.
Stay tuned...
Doug Peterson
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer[/url]
Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)
-
Edmund,
This is the result of a sticking/lagging shutter* and indicates a body which would need servicing if the current failure rate is unacceptable or if the rate increases. With film this would result in a slight over exposure. With a digital back the sticking/lagging shutter allows light to hit the sensor during the data-read-out, which for any Kodak-chip** MFDB will create a strong rectangular color cast in the area exposed (which will be the side of the sensor last covered by the moving shutter) and is also possible with camera systems which use a leaf shutter (in particular with XX year old Hasselblad V lenses which have never been serviced). This is not to be confused (as it appears it might have been in previous answers) with any number of similar (and equally rare) image errors involving green/magenta lines/bands.
This is one reason I think the evolution of the AFD II to the Phase One 645 was more important than most people give it credit for. A lot of the changes were not glitzy, but were to boost consistency and reliability. The P1 645 comes with a three year 300,000 shot warranty (when purchased with a Value Added kit), so they buffed up the shutter and improved the internal electronics. This warranty is a big piece of mind.
I can tell you from hundreds of tech support cases that intermittent problems are usually not caused by the digital back and are usually mechanical/physical in nature. Problems with the digital back, which are very rare (see how rugged they are (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/durability-videos/)), generally cause symptoms that are persistent/consistent problems. This is a very general statement and of course there are plenty of exceptions to the rule but they hold true for most of my support cases.
Finally I would note in defense of Phase One as well as the other brands that forums are a very difficult place to determine consistency/reliability. Responses will be biased towards those with negative experiences and towards the brands/models which are more often used, and tainted by those using the system incorrectly. I have no problem discussing the problems that can arise in a public forum because if you take a fair and wide sample you will find that Phase is a very solid platform.
Doug Peterson
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer (http://www.captureintegration.com)
Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)
*For other readers: the Hasselblad-V-lens-to-Mamiya/Phase-Body adapter disables the function of the shutter in the lens in favor of using the body shutter.
**I have no knowledge either way if this is true of Dalsa chips, but I suppose I will when the P65+ comes out!
-
Finally I would note in defense of Phase One as well as the other brands that forums are a very difficult place to determine consistency/reliability. Responses will be biased towards those with negative experiences and towards the brands/models which are more often used, and tainted by those using the system incorrectly. I have no problem discussing the problems that can arise in a public forum because if you take a fair and wide sample you will find that Phase is a very solid platform.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210428\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Doug, to some extent your correct. Most come onto a forum with an issue looking for a resolve.
Then again you come at this from a much different viewpoint.
As photographers we make our money, showing, promoting and shooting our photographs, as a dealer your make your money selling equipment.
When something goes wrong with my camera, I just want it to work. I don't really want to be that involved, because I'm not paid to be that involved. In fact I paid money NOT to be involved.
In my case the p30 was solid, the p30+ a less solid with the half black frames. I did due dilligence and sent the images, raw and processed, screen shots etc. etc. to the dealer (your company) who sent them on to Phase, but after the phone calls, the uploads, the e-mails, it still came down to the fact that there really wasn't an answer.
Now luckily in my case it didn't happen that often so I just blew it off and went on with my life, mainly because finding issues with a camera and identifying them isn't my job.
JR
-
Edmund,
This is the result of a sticking/lagging shutter* and indicates a body which would need servicing if the current failure rate is unacceptable or if the rate increases. With film this would result in a slight over exposure. With a digital back the sticking/lagging shutter allows light to hit the sensor during the data-read-out, which for any Kodak-chip** MFDB will create a strong rectangular color cast in the area exposed (which will be the side of the sensor last covered by the moving shutter) and is also possible with camera systems which use a leaf shutter (in particular with XX year old Hasselblad V lenses which have never been serviced). This is not to be confused (as it appears it might have been in previous answers) with any number of similar (and equally rare) image errors involving green/magenta lines/bands.
Isn't this the same thing as a sync problem between shutter & back as some of us indicated? (though described slightly different).
I agree that backs are extremely rugged. Of all problems I have had over the years (which were numerous because of all different contraptions I have tried) none of those were due to the backs I used. I all cases it turned out to be the 'other hardware' or photographers stupidity.
-
Isn't this the same thing as a sync problem between shutter & back as some of us indicated? (though described slightly different).
I agree that backs are extremely rugged. Of all problems I have had over the years (which were numerous because of all different contraptions I have tried) none of those were due to the backs I used. I all cases it turned out to be the 'other hardware' or photographers stupidity.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=210451\")
Dustbak: I owe you an apology. In reading your explanation of the problem I think your phrasing just threw me off a bit. When I think of "sync" I think of the initial trigger pulse. In this case the initial trigger pulse is spot on, but the shutter that remains open longer than requested by the body. Absolutely this could be described as the shutter/body/back being out of "sync."
Doug
Doug Peterson
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer[/url]
Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)
-
Doug,
Thank you for this extensive reply. I will try and see whether it is possible to get my camera body serviced here in Paris. I have a VA warranty on the back, but clearly this does not cover the body.
IMHO the good point about the Phase name on the new body is that Phase is forced to guarantee that body service is available.
Edmund
Edmund,
This is the result of a sticking/lagging shutter* and indicates a body which would need servicing if the current failure rate is unacceptable or if the rate increases. With film this would result in a slight over exposure. With a digital back the sticking/lagging shutter allows light to hit the sensor during the data-read-out, which for any Kodak-chip** MFDB will create a strong rectangular color cast in the area exposed (which will be the side of the sensor last covered by the moving shutter) and is also possible with camera systems which use a leaf shutter (in particular with XX year old Hasselblad V lenses which have never been serviced). This is not to be confused (as it appears it might have been in previous answers) with any number of similar (and equally rare) image errors involving green/magenta lines/bands.
This is one reason I think the evolution of the AFD II to the Phase One 645 was more important than most people give it credit for. A lot of the changes were not glitzy, but were to boost consistency and reliability. The P1 645 comes with a three year 300,000 shot warranty (when purchased with a Value Added kit), so they buffed up the shutter and improved the internal electronics. This warranty is a big piece of mind.
I can tell you from hundreds of tech support cases that intermittent problems are usually not caused by the digital back and are usually mechanical/physical in nature. Problems with the digital back, which are very rare (see how rugged they are (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/durability-videos/)), generally cause symptoms that are persistent/consistent problems. This is a very general statement and of course there are plenty of exceptions to the rule but they hold true for most of my support cases.
Finally I would note in defense of Phase One as well as the other brands that forums are a very difficult place to determine consistency/reliability. Responses will be biased towards those with negative experiences and towards the brands/models which are more often used, and tainted by those using the system incorrectly. I have no problem discussing the problems that can arise in a public forum because if you take a fair and wide sample you will find that Phase is a very solid platform.
Doug Peterson
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer (http://www.captureintegration.com)
Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)
*For other readers: the Hasselblad-V-lens-to-Mamiya/Phase-Body adapter disables the function of the shutter in the lens in favor of using the body shutter.
**I have no knowledge either way if this is true of Dalsa chips, but I suppose I will when the P65+ comes out!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210428\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
If I had a camera and back that did this on a routine basis I would return every bit of it, or I would throw it off the roof. I'm serious.
Nothing would be as bad as have a pink and green frame of that one amazing moment and I'm sure that would the exact frame it would happen to.
I have to say out of a lot of frames with the p30 and the Contax I've had about a dozen half black frames, about 4 with a green line in them, but nothing routine, and that's out of a lot of frames.
On the P21, regardless of how fast I shoot I've never seen a bad frame.
Then again, Edmund have you cleaned and polished every contact from the lenses to the back and then gone into the dealer with the exact equipment and mixed and matched until you can isolate if it's your lens, your back, your body or jus the way the system is designed.
If it's a design flaw then the answer is to move on to other equipment, if it's just a mechanical issue the answer is to fix it.
Though I'm sure you know that.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210369\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
With the RZ, its the nature of the beast, really. Most of the time all the pieces are rental items. But we have found a few systems from private rental companies that work really well. Still though, there is always something on every shoot. Usually we have to reconnect the cables or switch out cables. Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of moving on. I have to use what the client wants and I troubleshoot it, make sure there are plenty of cables and backup equipment and make sure that the system stays up and running.
With the H2, I don't see these kind of issues often. Nonetheless, any camera system, regardless of what it is does not come without its list of issues that are most prevalent in real world situations on set. Its great that you don't have those issues with the P21. Unfortunately that system is a bit too small. Typically if I want speed without issues I use Leaf.
-
Doug,
Thank you for this extensive reply. I will try and see whether it is possible to get my camera body serviced here in Paris. I have a VA warranty on the back, but clearly this does not cover the body.
IMHO the good point about the Phase name on the new body is that Phase is forced to guarantee that body service is available.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210454\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
With all that said it should be very easy for you to simply take a different Mamiya AFDII body or PhaseOne 645 body and prove to yourself that this does not effect your captures any longer.
Of course the Phase One backs are built rock solid and that is why they are so widely used around the world. No one here ever questioned that. We are just simply trying to gather others experience ofthese artifacts and come to some conclusion of what may have happened during his exposures.
And James is correct in that we gather all the requested information when issues arise but is it sometimes more difficlut to fully understand where the problem is.
I would have assumed that someone would have already tried a second body to trouble shoot this issue.
Good Luck
Chris Snipes
Image Productions, Inc
-
Edmund:
Have you sent your AFD/AFD2 body in for the digital back firmware upgrade? (I'm probably way behind, but I only learned about it yesterday myself...)
See: http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-promotio...d-upgrades.html (http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-promotions-and-upgrades.html)
Jack
-
Edmund:
Have you sent your AFD/AFD2 body in for the digital back firmware upgrade? (I'm probably way behind, but I only learned about it yesterday myself...)
See: http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-promotio...d-upgrades.html (http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-promotions-and-upgrades.html)
Jack
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210594\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, I took the back off the body for the first time since the dealer mounted it, the sensor looked clean (!), and I saw a piece of plastic foil around the contacts which I removed. I think this might help with focus. I also cleaned the contacts as James suggested - I seem to be incapable of giving myself the advice which I'd give to others, which is a good reason for coming here.
I'm going to run some tests. If the problem persists, I'm going to find a cheap AFD to buy and then send the AFDII in for service -my dealer says body repairs are sent to Japan and take 3 weeks.
Thing is, I know it may sound weird to people who read me here, as I come across as a techie, but 6 months after the move to MF I've just now nailed down my working configuration with the body and back and software and printer, and have only now started to make "production" images so I don't want to stop. It's now image time rather than tech time.
Edmund
-
Does anyone know how long this update takes
I don't usually shoot fast so I don't often experience the magenta frame problem. However I shot an editorial job today with the P45+ and experienced this magenta frame problem on 2 images out of 266. It would be nice if it didn't happen. It hasn't ruined a valuable image yet, but it has the potential. Wow I learned a lot of tricks shooting an editorial story with the p45+, it was a challenge.
[attachment=7672:attachment]
Edmund:
Have you sent your AFD/AFD2 body in for the digital back firmware upgrade? (I'm probably way behind, but I only learned about it yesterday myself...)
See: http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-promotio...d-upgrades.html (http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-promotions-and-upgrades.html)
Jack
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210594\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Thing is, I know it may sound weird to people who read me here, as I come across as a techie, but 6 months after the move to MF I've just now nailed down my working configuration with the body and back and software and printer, and have only now started to make "production" images so I don't want to stop. It's now image time rather than tech time.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210648\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I was relieved to see you say that, Edmund, because I have just had a similar experience. I moved back to MF (H3D 39) 6 months ago and am only now beginning to take the sort of shots I'm pleased with. I also moved from PC to Mac at the same time and that complicated things a bit but even so, I was beginning to wonder if I was a 35mm person at heart and should recognise my limitations (no disrespect for 35mm shooters - I'm still one). For years I used MF film, owned every system made (bit cheaper to change in those days!), until the Canon 1Ds appeared then sold everything and went fully digital. That was an easy change to make because although we had to learn a few new technical tricks, the actual shooting suddenly became freer, quicker, and for me gave better results. But I longed for the higher quality (better colour, more headroom to process files, more resolution for bigger prints, etc) of MF. Fortunately I had the work coming in so I bought the gear.
Maybe I'm unlearning the habits of years of 35mm digital and recalling (slowly!) the different requirements of MF shooting. Following your posts often, I feel you want to use your MF gear in a 35mm way. I think I want that also so maybe that's part of what's happening. Yes, we have to learn how to get the best out of constantly changing software, which I find much more complicated than darkroom technique, but for me it's recognising and adjusting to the different ways of MF shooting that's the biggest challenge. I still have days when I just don't get the shots I want with MF and know that I would have got them with my 1Ds (now a mk3). But there's something about working with MF that I just can't resist. Maybe it's the challenge of trying to master a format that so far has mastered me. Whatever, hopefully it delays the onset of senility just a little. (Sorry if this post was rambling but your comment triggered these thoughts.)
-
Yes, we have to learn how to get the best out of constantly changing software, which I find much more complicated than darkroom technique,
Amen to that!
Kind of takes me back to my original thoughts when digital first impacted on my brain those years ago: is it/was it really a solution looking for a problem?
Rob C
-
P21 with normal AFD, not a single bad frame yet after a year and last job of 1000 frames not a single out of focus frame either. And thats fashion shot handheld.
-
P21 with normal AFD, not a single bad frame yet after a year and last job of 1000 frames not a single out of focus frame either. And thats fashion shot handheld.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211395\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I find that I have to manually focus for an 80% hit rate. With AF it always seems to lock on the wrong thing, such as the bridge of the nose instead of eyes.
-
I find that I have to manually focus for an 80% hit rate. With AF it always seems to lock on the wrong thing, such as the bridge of the nose instead of eyes.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211422\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I shoot F11 with a wide lens so it isn't that critical.
-
I shoot F11 with a wide lens so it isn't that critical.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211448\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's what I've been doing lately as well, with the 45mm. Still manual focusing. The 45 sings at F11.
-
Wow! If I had a single shot like this one I would be a raving lunatic. Almost looks like you have light leaking in around the back or something.
Any chance you have occasional focus problems too?
I use a P30+ with AFDII and never seen anything remotely similar to this.
I occasional have problems with metering on manual glass but assumed I got confused on the stop down.
-
Wow! If I had a single shot like this one I would be a raving lunatic. Almost looks like you have light leaking in around the back or something.
Any chance you have occasional focus problems too?
I use a P30+ with AFDII and never seen anything remotely similar to this.
I occasional have problems with metering on manual glass but assumed I got confused on the stop down.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=212160\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think the camera is focusing at the right spot, but the back itself hasn't been sharp in the past somehow. A replacement P45 back I had for a while seemed much sharper somehow.
When I had this magenta issue, however, I separated the back from the camera and found a piece of plastic foil over the contact-guard. I removed this, and cleaned the contacts (JR's recommended therapy), haven't had a bad shot since, and sharpness seems improved.
Before buying a back, I did some tests with a Mamiya and P30, and it seemed sharper than my P45+s have been.
I enjoy using the Mamiya as a super-SLR; it would be easier to do if it had the ZD form factor. However, in a few years with live-view we'll probably be able to use the Alpa with back-screen composition and focus. Schneider-MF-compacts, that's what we really need
Edmund