Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: markowich on July 11, 2008, 07:30:47 am
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P65+ to be announce on monday by phaseone, 60.5 mpg, sensor size 53,9x40,4, pixel pitch 6x6 micron, 50-800 iso, 1 fps, no info about sensor manufacturer. EC price 26.900 euros +tax. delivery supposed to start in Q4 of 2008.
this is all i know, peter
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Yawn.....................!
D.
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Stay tuned, or if this boars you, go back to sleep. More soon.
Michael
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Stay tuned, or if this boars you, go back to sleep. More soon.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207258\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I posted in May I'd heard it was going to be 70mp, more interestingly that it could also be shot at half the pixel count, for speed and maybe noise. That would be an interesting feature if it turns out to be true.
Kevin.
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I posted in May I'd heard it was going to be 70mp, more interestingly that it could also be shot at half the pixel count, for speed and maybe noise. That would be an interesting feature if it turns out to be true.
Kevin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207262\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I would hope that it could be shot at lower resolution. 380 meg 16 bit tiff, anybody? I work with scans that big and bigger, and its a pain on my Mac Pro with 7 gigs and a 10,000 rpm drive.
the real estate is, however, good news.
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I received an e-mail from a a friend of mine, a Phase shooter, who asks simply:
"who told Phase we needed 60 megapixels?"
Well, who was it? Which one of you told Phase 60 was a great idea and what the market demands?
I am however, super-psyched about the fuller (almost full) Frame size. That is a huge positive.
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P65+ to be announce on monday by phaseone, 60.5 mpg, sensor size 53,9x40,4, pixel pitch 6x6 micron, 50-800 iso, 1 fps, no info about sensor manufacturer. EC price 26.900 euros +tax. delivery supposed to start in Q4 of 2008.
this is all i know, peter
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207256\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi
If true this will be less expensive than the H3D-50 with a larger pixel count + a larger sized chip. To me making the chip larger ( physical size ) is more important than putting more pixels in the same sized sensor. This also makes the lenses closer to 1:1. With the Mamiya AFD film magazine the actual film size is Image Size on film size is 41.5 x 56 mm. The new sensor is 53.9 x 40.4 mm, if true?
Thanks Denis
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The only trouble is I'm not sure if those older Mamiya lenses are able to resolve such details.
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The only trouble is I'm not sure if those older Mamiya lenses are able to resolve such details.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207269\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi
What do you mean by older? The new zooms look very good. Maybe the 35mm & 55-110 could have issues. I think getting MF closer to FF 35 digital is a big step. Plus there are new lenses to come from Mamiya & maybe from 3rd party manufactures to in the future.
Denis
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I know everyone moans about more pixels, I do wonder though if you were shooting with 60 mpx how many would miss the 60 if you had to go back to 30mp. 60 could possibly give better skin gradation in difficult light. I have often wondered with bayer pattern sensors how many green pixels are being used to make a blue sky or blue pixels to shoot yellow cloth etc. Just a thought from someone shooting a tiny 21 mpx on 35 mm.
Kevin.
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sorry, just heard that the price my be sightly higher (still under 30.000.- euros), peter
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sorry, just heard that the price my be sightly higher (still under 30.000.- euros), peter
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207273\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How much is a P45+ in EU at the moment?
They can be had for 30.000 US$ including the body in the US, which is less than 20.000 Euros if I am not mistaken.
Would the P65+ be 50% more expensive than the P45+, or is it another case of EU citizens being ripped off?
Regards,
Bernard
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Given the earlier multiplications I find that the new sensor has a multiplication factor of only 1.06
I think this is close enough to full frame to justify the term
It might not seem much, but the same calculation gives me a multiplication factor of 1.17 for my existing Aptus back which is more than the figure I'd heard in the past of 1.1.
An extra 10% along a dimension is fairly significant when wide angles are a little crushed.
For example, a 45mm lens on this chip would give the equivalent of a 40mm in FOV with the Aptus 75. A 55mm on this chip would be equivalent to a 47 on the Aptus 75.
There would be a fairly significant advantage to eg: a 35mm lens such as a digitar with good coverage as it would give a similar fov to a 28mm lens.
If only this didn't have too many darn pixels it would be great!
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I think that a P25 is the perfect back -- not because it is the one I have : )-- since it has the larger size -so far- with the biggest sensel
P 45 6.8 x 6.8
P 25 9 x 9
P 30 6.8 x 6.8
P 21 9 x 9
P 20 9 x 9
When you get a camera with sensel size 6, are you upgrading or downgrading (from size 9)?
Are we falling in to the consumer trap of going for the pixel count as in "more is better"?
What about diffraction problems?
At least it is probably safe to say that a P 25 will remain a "pure" digital back, and we can tell the client that he is getting one of the best IQ available on a compact file size.
On the other side, this new Kodak sensors have a lot of improvements in the way they are made, if they only had a model with 9 size sensel, full -or almost full- frame that would be what? 30MP ?
That would be the one to upgrade to...
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P45+ = 26.990.- euros + tax (20% in austria), no body included.
peter
How much is a P45+ in EU at the moment?
They can be had for 30.000 US$ including the body in the US, which is less than 20.000 Euros if I am not mistaken.
Would the P65+ be 50% more expensive than the P45+, or is it another case of EU citizens being ripped off?
Regards,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207279\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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On the other side, this new Kodak sensors have a lot of improvements in the way they are made, if they only had a model with 9 size sensel, full -or almost full- frame that would be what? 30MP ?
That would be the one to upgrade to...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207282\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Word up Leonardo.
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P45+ = 26.990.- euros + tax (20% in austria), no body included.
peter
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207285\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
if thats really the best price you can get, you guys should come over here to the US and get one for the same price in $ and save oh, about 10,000 Euros...
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I know everyone moans about more pixels, I do wonder though if you were shooting with 60 mpx how many would miss the 60 if you had to go back to 30mp. 60 could possibly give better skin gradation in difficult light. I have often wondered with bayer pattern sensors how many green pixels are being used to make a blue sky or blue pixels to shoot yellow cloth etc. Just a thought from someone shooting a tiny 21 mpx on 35 mm.
Kevin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207272\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have a P30+ and the last thing I miss when shooting a 5d is file size. Most of the shooters I know don't want or need bigger files. The qualification is that we all shoot people for magazines and other print collateral. In truth, we could all be using 5d's, for the most part. So 60 megapix seems a waste to me. Hell, 30 seems a waste. As to tones, only high end printing really shows the better tones and color. Even with the most beautiful file ever shot, some hack in a prepress department will butcher your image. Just look at this month's Lucky.
All that being said, if the pixels can be binned to 30, that's pretty cool. And for people making large prints and landscape guys, 60 will be welcome.
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I think that a P25 is the perfect back -- not because it is the one I have : )-- since it has the larger size -so far- with the biggest sensel
P 45 6.8 x 6.8
P 25 9 x 9
P 30 6.8 x 6.8
P 21 9 x 9
P 20 9 x 9
When you get a camera with sensel size 6, are you upgrading or downgrading (from size 9)?
Are we falling in to the consumer trap of going for the pixel count as in "more is better"?
What about diffraction problems?
At least it is probably safe to say that a P 25 will remain a "pure" digital back, and we can tell the client that he is getting one of the best IQ available on a compact file size.
On the other side, this new Kodak sensors have a lot of improvements in the way they are made, if they only had a model with 9 size sensel, full -or almost full- frame that would be what? 30MP ?
That would be the one to upgrade to...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207282\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
One thing you have to consider is that pixel sizes may be getting smaller, but alot of development has gone into them to make them better. If quality decreased, what would be the point of going bigger?
The Kodak 22mp (KAF22000) sensor was developed something like 5 years ago so to suggest that the only progress we have made since then is making the same pixel quality smaller i think maybe somewhat shortsighted. If you actually look at the cross section of the pixels between the 9 micron 22mp and the 6.8 micron 39mp chip you see that the the actual pixel well where the light is captured is roughly the same size. The 6.8 micron pixel has significantly less "deadspace" around each pixel well. Not to mention that it has a greater ability to produce color gamut. compare images of the same scene with a 22mp and 39mp back and you will see a real difference.
That being said the P25 really is a fantastic back and for that reason it is still on the market and doing quite well. but I do think that given the development time for sensors to improve over the last 5 years, I would certainly hope that the new CCDs from Kodak and Dalsa will do much more than just up pixel count of the same quality.
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Just wondering how significant the differences are between 22mpx multishot (in 4-shot mode) and the new 60mpx backs when it comes to resolution and colour accuracy in still-life and art-repro applications?
(Just thinking out loud)
Cheers,
J
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I would certainly hope that the new CCDs from Kodak and Dalsa will do much more than just up pixel count of the same quality.
Getting better sensor uniformity would be one important thing to me, reducing colour aberrations.
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Because "The Kodak 22mp (KAF22000) sensor was developed something like 5 years ago", could we see a new generation of 9 microns 22MP (or 30MP) CDD (for those thinking it is enough) ?
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Getting better sensor uniformity would be one important thing to me, reducing colour aberrations.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207302\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
For the work I do, medium format really needs to write some presets or change their color response.
All of digital is somewhat flaky compared to film in the way it picks up ambient color and all of digital is so tilted towards holding the highlights and shadows even the dslrs look somewhat flat, but this (and I'm not a color scientist) makes for a lot of color contamination (or better put it digital sees everything and the medium format backs see too much for what I do).
Film was different in the fact it was kind of dumb, it didn't seem to see everything. With film I was always adding fill and with digital I would rather start in black and work my way to white.
The medium format files are the most problematic. When they are on they are completely amazing and if your working with controlled lighting under the conditions they seem to be designed for they hold detail, highlights, shadows like no dslr can, but when you are working with mixed lighting, like sunlight and hmi fill, or your working with very hard direct light in studio, they cast and require a lot of post work to get skin colors to the look you remembered in film.
Little things like high key, extreme low key and back light going to flare seem to make digital go crazy.
I assume that whoever writes the software/firmware/grey balances . . . whatever, is shooting color charts and vegtables but they really need to shoot under a lot of conditions and skin tones in almost every kind of light.
Last night I was putting together some pre production materials for a project and went onto the servers and pulled down images from the 1ds1, 1ds2, A-22, p30 and p30+.
Some were amazingly on, others were almost impossible to get that great skin color without working in photoshop. Once again when the medium format was ON it was amazing, but when off it requires selecting and almost painting the skin.
The most uniform of all the cameras was the original 1ds1. It had it's issues, but is was the most consistent.
As far as 60mpx, well that's up to whoever buys it. Personally I think it's just easier and sound bites better to claim more megapixels than it does to mention stable software, or show beautiful skin tone color, but these companies will do what they want and I guess there is value in bigger is better.
Regardless, why none of these companies have not hired some kid out of Art Center, send him on a week long shoot of 5 skin tones, all types of lighting, clothes and locations and had him shoot their digital backs, next to film and compared the results is beyond me.
JR
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Hi,
Just adding that we have diminishing returns. Going from 11 MPixels to 22 the amount of information is doubled, so we can make 40% larger prints. Going from 39 to 50 Mpixels we have a 20% improvement, so we can make 10% larger prints. Do we have a visible difference? Probably not. If we can see an improvement it is probably more related to improved sensor design and improved signal processing.
Best regards
Erik
For the work I do, medium format really needs to write some presets or change their color response.
All of digital is somewhat flaky compared to film in the way it picks up ambient color and all of digital is so tilted towards holding the highlights and shadows even the dslrs look somewhat flat, but this (and I'm not a color scientist) makes for a lot of color contamination (or better put it digital sees everything and the medium format backs see too much for what I do).
Film was different in the fact it was kind of dumb, it didn't seem to see everything. With film I was always adding fill and with digital I would rather start in black and work my way to white.
The medium format files are the most problematic. When they are on they are completely amazing and if your working with controlled lighting under the conditions they seem to be designed for they hold detail, highlights, shadows like no dslr can, but when you are working with mixed lighting, like sunlight and hmi fill, or your working with very hard direct light in studio, they cast and require a lot of post work to get skin colors to the look you remembered in film.
Little things like high key, extreme low key and back light going to flare seem to make digital go crazy.
I assume that whoever writes the software/firmware/grey balances . . . whatever, is shooting color charts and vegtables but they really need to shoot under a lot of conditions and skin tones in almost every kind of light.
Last night I was putting together some pre production materials for a project and went onto the servers and pulled down images from the 1ds1, 1ds2, A-22, p30 and p30+.
Some were amazingly on, others were almost impossible to get that great skin color without working in photoshop. Once again when the medium format was ON it was amazing, but when off it requires selecting and almost painting the skin.
The most uniform of all the cameras was the original 1ds1. It had it's issues, but is was the most consistent.
As far as 60mpx, well that's up to whoever buys it. Personally I think it's just easier and sound bites better to claim more megapixels than it does to mention stable software, or show beautiful skin tone color, but these companies will do what they want and I guess there is value in bigger is better.
Regardless, why none of these companies have not hired some kid out of Art Center, send him on a week long shoot of 5 skin tones, all types of lighting, clothes and locations and had him shoot their digital backs, next to film and compared the results is beyond me.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207315\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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The most uniform of all the cameras was the original 1ds1. It had it's issues, but is was the most consistent.
Well, you are right about that, for sure. The DSLR's have the advantage of a much smaller sensor to get right.
What I was referring to was the way that at least the Dalsa MF sensors are 'printed' in sections. As a result, the chips surface is divided into a number of rectangles that appear to have slightly different characteristics. As a result, with non-retrofocal lenses you can get patches of greenish or magenta hue distributed over the picture. This is then overlaid by subtle 'italian flag' colour shifts, particularly with wide angles which are shifted.
Lets hope that the chippers manage to improve on the production process.
Only Dalsa has to reveal their hand now, presumably they have something in the works too.
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Personally I think it's just easier and sound bites better to claim more megapixels than it does to mention stable software....
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207315\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Amen to that.
As someone who cannot get ACR4 to save out TIFFs (Hasselblad 223Mb files that were first processed in Flexcolor) without constantly getting the dreaded, "There was not enough memory......" error, I can totally agree with you. I'm running Vista 64bit/8Gb RAM and one of the fastest processors available and I still get the error.
As has been suggested, landscapers might like this, but no one else needs it, IMHO.
D.
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As someone who cannot get ACR4 to save out TIFFs (Hasselblad 223Mb files that were first processed in Flexcolor) without constantly getting the dreaded, "There was not enough memory......" error, I can totally agree with you. I'm running Vista 64bit/8Gb RAM and one of the fastest processors available and I still get the error.
I think you must have something wrong in your Photoshop setup. I'm converting my P45+ files to 16-bit TIFFs (same file size as what you're working with) on a Mac Pro with 4 Gbytes of RAM and I've never seen the out of memory message. In fact, I'm stiching up to five 8-bit TIFFs (total open image size of almost 600 Mbytes, with no memory problems.
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Mort,
Just PM'ed you.
D.
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I wrote some software to calibrate a back, and did some testing around January. The difference in mixed light is incredible with my P45+. But raw converters cannot pick up the calibration info at the moment. My Matlab code is not exactly suitable for end-users like James It's possible that we could get a hacked version of dcraw to do what we need for the general public, but at the moment the only suitable version I know of is in the hands of Xrite and they have IP issues releasing it.
I proposed to the ICC DP working group that we have templates to drop the calibration info the files so that all Raw converters can see it. There is now on the agenda for the ICC Portland meeting in the fall a vote, that a request may be made via our liaisons to the TIFF/EP and DNG committees to incorporate the requested mods to their standards, at which point in a year or so things might improve for end users.
I will try to get out some end-user software myself later this year, I have some work to finish first before the Portland meeting.
Edmund
The medium format files are the most problematic. When they are on they are completely amazing and if your working with controlled lighting under the conditions they seem to be designed for they hold detail, highlights, shadows like no dslr can, but when you are working with mixed lighting, like sunlight and hmi fill, or your working with very hard direct light in studio, they cast and require a lot of post work to get skin colors to the look you remembered in film.
Regardless, why none of these companies have not hired some kid out of Art Center, send him on a week long shoot of 5 skin tones, all types of lighting, clothes and locations and had him shoot their digital backs, next to film and compared the results is beyond me.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207315\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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if thats really the best price you can get, you guys should come over here to the US and get one for the same price in $ and save oh, about 10,000 Euros...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207290\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If you do that though, Phase in EU won't want to know you. So hope you don't need support, or that it can be resolved by phone, at mutually convenient times. Phase have been quite offensive to me on this matter!
Hope this helps
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I think you must have something wrong in your Photoshop setup. I'm converting my P45+ files to 16-bit TIFFs (same file size as what you're working with) on a Mac Pro with 4 Gbytes of RAM and I've never seen the out of memory message. In fact, I'm stiching up to five 8-bit TIFFs (total open image size of almost 600 Mbytes, with no memory problems.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207328\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Interesting Mort,
I recently shifted back to OS X from XP64, because I was getting the same error with stitches of even 3 extracted P45 files (ca 200-230Mb each).
Never had the problem once in OS X - even with 6 shot stitches.
EDIT: Oh sorry, with 8Gb memory.
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Amen to that.
As someone who cannot get ACR4 to save out TIFFs (Hasselblad 223Mb files that were first processed in Flexcolor) without constantly getting the dreaded, "There was not enough memory......" error, I can totally agree with you. I'm running Vista 64bit/8Gb RAM and one of the fastest processors available and I still get the error.
As has been suggested, landscapers might like this, but no one else needs it, IMHO.
D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207326\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There is a lot of things that medium format does that is good. Tethering, detail, lack of an aa filter, the format for vertical pages and some of them have open files and stable software.
Then again there is no buzz in talking about stability or batch processing, but double the size, double the area, that's an easy one to advertise.
Most of the people I knwo that have shot digital for a period have gone through a lot of stages, from the first stage of yippeee it's finally as good as film, to the final responses when you just kind of shake your head and go on with life.
I don't know what any of these new annoucements mean, other than bigger files and for some the ability to print over a wall, but for most of us that work with these cameras under pressure, there is a whole lot of things we'd like to see addressed before the file sizes grow.
Then again, I've already pruchased and I'm probably not the exact target market.
I know the camera companies want to move product and from the dslrs to the smaller medium format companies, they are more predisposed to listen to good replies to what they offer, vs. non positive replies, (I guess that means negative).
We all want that in life, but then again if everyone keeps telling us we're great, we have little incentive to get better.
I'm curious as how these new cameras will be received. Will they be the must have addition, or just a variation on a current theme?
I don't sell cameras so I don't know, but I am positive once they hit the streets the process and the buzz (good and bad) will start all over again.
JR
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Because "The Kodak 22mp (KAF22000) sensor was developed something like 5 years ago", could we see a new generation of 9 microns 22MP (or 30MP) CDD (for those thinking it is enough) ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207307\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Pretty unlikely .....
During Hasselblads conference call this week we were told that Kodak has discontinued the 22mp chip and stock is only what is on hand ...
So I would soon expect to see just about everyone's 22mp offerings fade into history with the possible exception of Leaf since they are the only back manufacturer to use the Dalsa chip in the 22mp offering.
Matt LaPointe
Dodd Camera - Chicago
2840 W. Armitage
Chicago, IL 60647
(773) 227-3633
mlapointe@doddcamera.com
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go multi layers, do something with different plugin filters, sooner or later you'll encounter this(200m+ original files)
I think you must have something wrong in your Photoshop setup. I'm converting my P45+ files to 16-bit TIFFs (same file size as what you're working with) on a Mac Pro with 4 Gbytes of RAM and I've never seen the out of memory message. In fact, I'm stiching up to five 8-bit TIFFs (total open image size of almost 600 Mbytes, with no memory problems.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207328\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Somebody, in this or some other thread asked a very good question: "What do the product managers listen to when they come up with these products" (approximate quote). I am in the same camp of people that say 60mp is too much for most people, but could it be that the major MFDB companies are listening to what the clients want? Have any of you received a survey about what you would like to see?
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go multi layers, do something with different plugin filters, sooner or later you'll encounter this(200m+ original files)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207363\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No. It is definitely something wrong with the setup or hardware to get memory problems.
On my Powerbook G4 with 2Gig of RAM, I made the texture file that was printed onto vinyl and applied to the Honda F1 Car last year... ("Earthdreams" world map).
That was the biggest file I have ever worked on... approx 16 Gigabyte photoshop file with dozens of layers printed at 300ppi all over the car.
Yes it was slow to work with
but I didn't ever get a memory problem.
The secret was a firewire Raid Disk attached to the laptop as the photoshop scratch disk.
So believe me... a piddley little 200Mb file should never cause a problem.
All the best
Andrew
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Pretty unlikely .....
During Hasselblads conference call this week we were told that Kodak has discontinued the 22mp chip and stock is only what is on hand ...
So I would soon expect to see just about everyone's 22mp offerings fade into history with the possible exception of Leaf since they are the only back manufacturer to use the Dalsa chip in the 22mp offering.
Matt LaPointe
Dodd Camera - Chicago
2840 W. Armitage
Chicago, IL 60647
(773) 227-3633
mlapointe@doddcamera.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207345\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And don't forget Sinar - eMotion 54LV uses the Dalsa 22MP sensor....
And it also was just reduced to $17,695, which means you can pick up a 22MP Hy6 Kit (minus lens) for less than $22,000.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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"And it also was just reduced to $17,695, which means you can pick up a 22MP Hy6 Kit (minus lens) for less than $22,000.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php"
MF price war!!!! *g*
For $17,999, H3DII/31 still looks like the best deal..I'm tempted.
Steve
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I'm in the "60Mp? No thanks" camp myself. However, if you could choose to shoot at lower resolution with faster speed AND get very clean 1600 iso @ 30Mb I would consider upgrading in the future. But like many have said before me, my P25 still blows me away every time I use it so I feel no rush whatsoever.
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not total 200mb, but each layer 200mb, and I easily end up with 30-50layers, see attached file for example...
I'm not a hardware or software expert, so I really don't know which is the problem. well I guess it's the plugins, coz everytime I run out of memory I'm trying to do something with the plugins. Good info of your scratch disk secret:) I'll try that.
cheers,
dustblue
No. It is definitely something wrong with the setup or hardware to get memory problems.
On my Powerbook G4 with 2Gig of RAM, I made the texture file that was printed onto vinyl and applied to the Honda F1 Car last year... ("Earthdreams" world map).
That was the biggest file I have ever worked on... approx 16 Gigabyte photoshop file with dozens of layers printed at 300ppi all over the car.
Yes it was slow to work with
but I didn't ever get a memory problem.
The secret was a firewire Raid Disk attached to the laptop as the photoshop scratch disk.
So believe me... a piddley little 200Mb file should never cause a problem.
All the best
Andrew
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207384\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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not total 200mb, but each layer 200mb,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207409\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why is each layer 200MB? It appears that each layer covers a small percentage of the whole image area, e.g. a plane or a man. This does not result in 200MB layers if some of the layer is transparent. If you are superimposing full images on each other but masking 90% of each layer out, then you can create much smaller files by deleting most of the unused parts of each layer. Hope that makes sense.
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I guess it's the plugins, coz everytime I run out of memory I'm trying to do something with the plugins.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207409\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yep. That's probably the problem.
Unfortunately all or most filters rely on RAM to apply the effect, and then this gets saved to the
scratch disk... so a big scratch disk may not help your particular filter problem.
Good luck
A
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yes of coz, sorry I should elaborate more. the final psd file which contains the big original file generally end up with the size of 3-6G. 8bit half that size(which I have to usually do on behalf of speed...)
Why is each layer 200MB? It appears that each layer covers a small percentage of the whole image area, e.g. a plane or a man. This does not result in 200MB layers if some of the layer is transparent. If you are superimposing full images on each other but masking 90% of each layer out, then you can create much smaller files by deleting most of the unused parts of each layer. Hope that makes sense.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207410\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Why is each layer 200MB? It appears that each layer covers a small percentage of the whole image area, e.g. a plane or a man. This does not result in 200MB layers if some of the layer is transparent. If you are superimposing full images on each other but masking 90% of each layer out, then you can create much smaller files by deleting most of the unused parts of each layer. Hope that makes sense.
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Yes, that's true, but only after you have flattened the image (or merged visible) to remove all the duplicated areas on the image. I have intermediate images of around 1.5-2Gb, which (seem to) require a scratch file of some 4-5Gb (don't ask me why, but that's what I'm seeing in the scratch files sizes in the status bar). With extra layers, for pp, I've even got over the 4Gb max file size limit, and had to complete the processing, rather than saving and finishing later, even after using a compressed save algorithm. A set of 60Mpixel files would be interesting(!) to work on.
This is when using PS CS3; I have ptgui, but haven't investigated whether it might be more conservative in it's use of ram, during this sort of process.
Oh, and I'm not saying that it is *necessary* to always work with files of this size!
Hope this helps
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For the work I do, medium format really needs to write some presets or change their color response.
All of digital is somewhat flaky compared to film in the way it picks up ambient color and all of digital is so tilted towards holding the highlights and shadows even the dslrs look somewhat flat, but this (and I'm not a color scientist) makes for a lot of color contamination (or better put it digital sees everything and the medium format backs see too much for what I do).
Film was different in the fact it was kind of dumb, it didn't seem to see everything. With film I was always adding fill and with digital I would rather start in black and work my way to white.
The medium format files are the most problematic. When they are on they are completely amazing and if your working with controlled lighting under the conditions they seem to be designed for they hold detail, highlights, shadows like no dslr can, but when you are working with mixed lighting, like sunlight and hmi fill, or your working with very hard direct light in studio, they cast and require a lot of post work to get skin colors to the look you remembered in film.
Little things like high key, extreme low key and back light going to flare seem to make digital go crazy.
I assume that whoever writes the software/firmware/grey balances . . . whatever, is shooting color charts and vegtables but they really need to shoot under a lot of conditions and skin tones in almost every kind of light.
Last night I was putting together some pre production materials for a project and went onto the servers and pulled down images from the 1ds1, 1ds2, A-22, p30 and p30+.
Some were amazingly on, others were almost impossible to get that great skin color without working in photoshop. Once again when the medium format was ON it was amazing, but when off it requires selecting and almost painting the skin.
The most uniform of all the cameras was the original 1ds1. It had it's issues, but is was the most consistent.
As far as 60mpx, well that's up to whoever buys it. Personally I think it's just easier and sound bites better to claim more megapixels than it does to mention stable software, or show beautiful skin tone color, but these companies will do what they want and I guess there is value in bigger is better.
Regardless, why none of these companies have not hired some kid out of Art Center, send him on a week long shoot of 5 skin tones, all types of lighting, clothes and locations and had him shoot their digital backs, next to film and compared the results is beyond me.
JR
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I don't know about you but I was very tuned-in to my film back in the day, and I shot only a few types because I knew what I wanted and what would deliver..now if someone handed me a back or holder with something else and I shot it and got it back from the lab I would have not liked it..
my point is that it took a lot of shooting and processing to dial in the desired film look. So too do I have to shoot and tweek to get the look I need with a digital workflow.. It was my experience with film, that unless I was shooting the same stock, the same lights, and the same set, all parameters would be different.. I never did a big shoot with out running some film first.
The biggest difference now is that I know a lot more about post and prepress..I know what will print and what won't..before I'd hand them a lovely(to my eye) velvia transparency and say "have fun matching this" and know that it was't my problem..and knew as well that there were masters in the prepress industry who could tweek their system and even improve on what I gave them. It has been a lot of work to try to get up to their knowledge level as all of us need to be delivering a finished image.. not prepress ready, but damn good so it can be converted by joeblow print guy. Do I wish I could go back to dropping the film at the lab and editing on the light table.. sometimes. However, I now deliver a better, printable file than I did a sheet of film 5 years ago. Hey we were spoiled then, kodak, fuji and the lab determined everything, our curves,hue/sat, levels,iso, etc...we just shot into their predetermined conditions.
I wouldn't mind if the next back I got had a preset for astia100, then I could tweek from there if needed. However I am happy now shooting a bit flatter & processing a flat raw file and adjusting to the look I want, more work but worth it.
Regarding flakyness of digital with mixed lights..I tend to think that my small digital camera which I use in mixed light situations handles it better than transparency film ever did.
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I don't know about you but I was very tuned-in to my film back in the day, and I shot only a few types because I knew what I wanted and what would deliver..now if someone handed me a back or holder with something else and I shot it and got it back from the lab I would have not liked it..
my point is that it took a lot of shooting and processing to dial in the desired film look. So too do I have to shoot and tweek to get the look I need with a digital workflow.. It was my experience with film, that unless I was shooting the same stock, the same lights, and the same set, all parameters would be different.. I never did a big shoot with out running some film first.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207424\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
We don't prior test digital like we did film but there isn't a lot of point. It's not like your going to add 10cc of cyan over the lens, or even start gelling the lights, especially with mixed daylight, hmi.
I guess we could, but we all know it will fix in post.
The point is I do shoot a lot of different work and I see a big difference in how all of these cameras react.
Shooting a Nikon, Canon, Phase and Leica and put them in their native processor, or even a 3rd party parocessor and you will see a great deal of difference in the way they respond to colors, the the difference is not global, where adding some cyan cleans it up.
Some of these cameras just respond funky. I just shot a hmi, daylight situation and the beautiful darker toned models went magenta red on some of the cameras, fine on others (no reason to say which), but it wasn't a global red/magenta it was in the curves.
I fixed, heck we're always fixing it, but it would be easier if they started out more stable or at lease were more adjustable before it came out of camera.
JR
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We don't prior test digital like we did film but there isn't a lot of point. It's not like your going to add 10cc of cyan over the lens, or even start gelling the lights, especially with mixed daylight, hmi.
I guess we could, but we all know it will fix in post.
The point is I do shoot a lot of different work and I see a big difference in how all of these cameras react.
Shooting a Nikon, Canon, Phase and Leica and put them in their native processor, or even a 3rd party parocessor and you will see a great deal of difference in the way they respond to colors, the the difference is not global, where adding some cyan cleans it up.
Some of these cameras just respond funky. I just shot a hmi, daylight situation and the beautiful darker toned models went magenta red on some of the cameras, fine on others (no reason to say which), but it wasn't a global red/magenta it was in the curves.
I fixed, heck we're always fixing it, but it would be easier if they started out more stable or at lease were more adjustable before it came out of camera.
JR
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I guess I have simplified to the point of using one manufacture, well at least a combo of kodak/hasselblad on both my small (leica) and larger (hasselblad) cameras .. so I don't see the variety of backs you do..or skin tones! with all there was and is to learn digitally I had to keep the variables down to a minimum.. I don't even what to think about a 60mp back at this point,
unless it had much larger sensor (real estate)
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As well as Mamiya.
Other than that look at what Nikon did with the D3. They decided to stick to a low pixel count to provide optimal DR and noise... some brands seem to understand our needs better.
Cheers,
Bernard
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As well as Mamiya.
Other than that look at what Nikon did with the D3. They decided to stick to a low pixel count to provide optimal DR and noise... some brands seem to understand our needs better.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Only that phase has the option to give us a back with a larger sensor which can have both sides. More px and lower noise.
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Only that phase has the option to give us a back with a larger sensor which can have both sides. More px and lower noise.
Well, Phase gives you more and more pixels for sure; however, they are far from the noise level of the D3. Apparently their customers appretiate the pixel count higher than DR.
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Well, Phase gives you more and more pixels for sure; however, they are far from the noise level of the D3. Apparently their customers appretiate the pixel count higher than DR.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207470\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks for the snide comment regarding the wants, needs and desires of Phase owners. If you read the posts from Phase owners you will see that not many, if any, Phase customers want more pixels. We do want more DR and what we understand to be fatter pixels in a close to real full frame 645 chip. Many posts in this thread question the product managers' decision process that has led to a 60 Mpix back. It might be that the pixels can be binned for better noise performance and smaller files, which would be cool. We will all find out Monday.
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If you read the posts from Phase owners you will see that not many, if any, Phase customers want more pixels
I read them. However, I don't start out with the assumption, that Phase One's decision makers are dumb and made such a decision without having conducted a market research.
Binning is a half-solution for double price.
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We do want more DR and what we understand to be fatter pixels in a close to real full frame 645 chip. Many posts in this thread question the product managers' decision process that has led to a 60 Mpix back. It might be that the pixels can be binned for better noise performance and smaller files, which would be cool. We will all find out Monday.
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Yes - this phase shooter wants fat pixels and more real estate. I care less about how many pixels than I do about DR and color. But I don't want a 645 or a rotating back. Forget that - what I want is 6x6 and I want it to fit on either my 6008 or the new Hy6.
So I guess we have some overlap but not all of us want exactly the same set of features. I'll bet there are a few shooters that at least think they want 60 mpix. The big question I have is will it work with smaller apertures than f/8 or will you just be getting 30mpix worth of detail with a 60mpix back at that point?
Whose to say that they don't have any more new products in the works? I sure hope they have something that will go to like ISO 3200 in the pipeline.
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I read them. However, I don't start out with the assumption, that Phase One's decision makers are dumb and made such a decision without having conducted a market research.
Binning is a half-solution for double price.
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I don't think big megapix are aimed at current owners. Lureing people from canon and competeing with blad for those canon shooters is probably the target market. I asked about twenty people I know who own or regularly shoot mfdb about 60 megapix. No one wants it and no one was asked by Phase if they wanted 60.
I work for ad agencies. I take part in the process of selling things to people. I know what is the result of good market research and I can tell you only blad has a real idea and vision. So assuming that Phase did not do market research is a reasonable assumption.
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If there was a 33Megapixel upgrade to a nearly full frame crop, I'd be very keen on it. If it requires a huge expense and double the pixels, I'd might not do it. My workflow is good right now in terms of the processors handling 33Mp files, the storage requirements and so on.
A days shoot for me can already be 24-30Gb for the 33 megapixel camera. I really don't want to see that go up to 50Gb a day. And I don't want to sit at my computer for 30% longer watching the spinning ball while they are processed.
Image quality is pretty fantastic already, its the usability I'd like to see improved (live view improvements, screen improvements, speed) and higher ISO.
I can understand that for marketing purposes, the vendors probably all need 'the high end' 60Mp etc as their flagship. But realistically, isn't that a toy for a rich amateur rather than a person who shoots several days a week?
When I need to I can stitch a 55-60Mp file easily enough. I can think of maybe 2-3 jobs where I could have used this. But last year when I shot images used for this billboard campaign (http://www.prwfreeman.co.uk/prwfreeman/wp/?p=14), some of the other source images were shot on DSLR's and my files were much bigger than everyone expected. So even for billboards of a massive size, I might have got away with the 1DsII if I'd wanted.
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were the images for the billboard campain shot with a view camera or with medium format reflex?
peter
If there was a 33Megapixel upgrade to a nearly full frame crop, I'd be very keen on it. If it requires a huge expense and double the pixels, I'd might not do it. My workflow is good right now in terms of the processors handling 33Mp files, the storage requirements and so on.
A days shoot for me can already be 24-30Gb for the 33 megapixel camera. I really don't want to see that go up to 50Gb a day. And I don't want to sit at my computer for 30% longer watching the spinning ball while they are processed.
Image quality is pretty fantastic already, its the usability I'd like to see improved (live view improvements, screen improvements, speed) and higher ISO.
I can understand that for marketing purposes, the vendors probably all need 'the high end' 60Mp etc as their flagship. But realistically, isn't that a toy for a rich amateur rather than a person who shoots several days a week?
When I need to I can stitch a 55-60Mp file easily enough. I can think of maybe 2-3 jobs where I could have used this. But last year when I shot images used for this billboard campaign (http://www.prwfreeman.co.uk/prwfreeman/wp/?p=14), some of the other source images were shot on DSLR's and my files were much bigger than everyone expected. So even for billboards of a massive size, I might have got away with the 1DsII if I'd wanted.
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Thanks for the snide comment regarding the wants, needs and desires of Phase owners. If you read the posts from Phase owners you will see that not many, if any, Phase customers want more pixels. We do want more DR and what we understand to be fatter pixels in a close to real full frame 645 chip. Many posts in this thread question the product managers' decision process that has led to a 60 Mpix back. It might be that the pixels can be binned for better noise performance and smaller files, which would be cool. We will all find out Monday.
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calm down there!
it's simple - there's lots of different Phase owners out there with different needs, just like there are different photographers some using Leicas, some MF, some prefer a wooden 4x5", some an 8x10 view camera. So... Phase make a range of backs for different needs - there's faster 31Mp ones and slower but higher res higher res ones too. hurrah!
I'm a Phase owner (my 3rd back now) and welcome the 60Mp, and will upgrade almost certainly - its not too big for my needs. However I respect that for others it may not be their first choice, and expect another sensor with faster shoot rates and higher ISO is in the pipes - CHOICE is good, choice is welcome, we've been starved of it in the pro digital market, so be happy!
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were the images for the billboard campain shot with a view camera or with medium format reflex?
peter
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Mamiya 645 for the skyline with the eye and the longer of the zooms. Battersea power station was with the Cambo Wide handheld 72mm Schneider lens. Thames pano is a crop of a single shot with the Cambo Wide and Schneider 35mm lens.
Plenty of pixels, and if you use the zoomify, even with the Mamiya zoom shot there is tons of detail.
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I dont get it. They are entering the 60MP zone without real improvements of the pixels, DR, LCD, colors or speed.
There should be more reps reading this forum so they would know what photographers realy want at the moment.
Just give us around 40 MPs with big pixels, real fullframe, 5D type LCD, more DR and more usable iso. That should be possible within a heartbeat with todays technology. Look at RED.
Damn, so we will have to wait another 18 month till some real improved stuff is coming.
When will they ever learn.
Tim
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If 60MP is too many, you could always downsize your files to 30MP, with the attendant improvements in DR, tonality, noise, and color accuracy...
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yes, the resolution is very good, in particular i am surprised about the mamiya. but as you know very well, 'better' is the biggest enemy of 'good'. that is why
i shall be happy about more pixels for my landscapes and large prints. isn't it great that we get one more choice? surely i agree agree that other issues with digipacks are pressing, like DR, lack of live view (phase, leaf and the likes, please check with nikon...CCD or not), view camera compatibility..
peter
Mamiya 645 for the skyline with the eye and the longer of the zooms. Battersea power station was with the Cambo Wide handheld 72mm Schneider lens. Thames pano is a crop of a single shot with the Cambo Wide and Schneider 35mm lens.
Plenty of pixels, and if you use the zoomify, even with the Mamiya zoom shot there is tons of detail.
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I dont get it. They are entering the 60MP zone without real improvements of the pixels, DR, LCD, colors or speed.
There should be more reps reading this forum so they would know what photographers realy want at the moment.
Just give us around 40 MPs with big pixels, real fullframe, 5D type LCD, more DR and more usable iso. That should be possible within a heartbeat with todays technology. Look at RED.
Damn, so we will have to wait another 18 month till some real improved stuff is coming.
When will they ever learn.
Tim
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It will probably turn out that you are right, but it is premature to conclude they have not been listening. Phase, Leaf and Sinar have not yet revealed their new products for Photokina(and Hasselblad may not be done). Rumour has it that full frame 645 chips will appear. Maybe the new chips will have improved DR and better color, not just more mp. As for larger, high quality LCDs, I would be flabbergasted if we did not see them from Phase, Sinar and Leaf. We will have a clear picture after Photokina when these new products actually get into the hands of photographers who can test them and report(and who hopefully do not view the exercise as a form of tribal warfare---my tribe, e.g., Sinar, v. the other tribes).
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It will probably turn out that you are right, but it is premature to conclude they have not been listening. Phase, Leaf and Sinar have not yet revealed their new products for Photokina(and Hasselblad may not be done). Rumour has it that full frame 645 chips will appear. Maybe the new chips will have improved DR and better color, not just more mp. As for larger, high quality LCDs, I would be flabbergasted if we did not see them from Phase, Sinar and Leaf. We will have a clear picture after Photokina when these new products actually get into the hands of photographers who can test them and report(and who hopefully do not view the exercise as a form of tribal warfare---my tribe, e.g., Sinar, v. the other tribes).
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Hi hcubell
your are right, we shouldn't jump to conclusion. But Hasseblad didn't "brag" about their new bigger and sharper LCD in their new product information. They didn't mention DR in one word.
They would have, if they had improved it. Usualy they mention every little shitty new thing they put in to their cams and backs. So this doesn't look to good to me.
Kinda sad.
All DB makers should get their act togheter and put some bigtime products out or they might be out very very soon. The canons and nikons are not at sleep.
Dont get me wrong here. I love the look and feel of MF. The files turn out way better and are much better for colorgrading. But the gap between the new canon and the MF offerings are getting closer and closer.
A Hassy setup will cost around 50K. A canon Mark3 setup will cost around 22K.
So is the MF kit twice as good? Is it realy worth it.
For my kind of work it should be. I love the MF framing, DOF etc. But the MF kits should offer way more than just a few MPs more than the canons. The sooner the DB makers get it the longer they will stay in the business. Give me more than just MPs and a ok price and I will buy a new cam in a minute and so will a lot of other guys too, I think.
It's crazy what RED accomplished in just 2 years. They built a digital cinemacamera from scratch.
As an owner I'm still stoked how good this cam is. The DB makers are in the exact same price range and they are sleeping. They just try to optimise their profits etc and not the products.
Just my thoughts
Tim
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Hi hcubell
your are right, we shouldn't jump to conclusion. But Hasseblad didn't "brag" about their new bigger and sharper LCD in their new product information. ...............................................
It's crazy what RED accomplished in just 2 years. They built a digital cinemacamera from scratch.
As an owner I'm still stoked how good this cam is. The DB makers are in the exact same price range and they are sleeping. They just try to optimise their profits etc and not the products.
Just my thoughts
Tim
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I'm there on the Red and it makess you think.
Just clicking through the base setup for a Red on their website puts it in at around 30k U.S. before lenses.
Amazing.
Honestly I am surprised that we're not way further down the line with stills.
More megapixels, ok . . . 20% better lcds . . . hmm . . . complete systems based on old film camera designs . . . hmm.
At this point I would have thought there would be a still camera that was the red equivelent.
Something that wasn't medium format or 35mm, just a professional digital camera systems with a variable format.
A system that would take nearly any lens with a mount change and that the frame size was not specifically related to any format, 35mm or medium format.
I am amazed when I look at a top of the line medium format camera and back and the Red and realize they are the same price.
JR
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The big question is: did Kodak or Dalsa do any marketing research? It is very likely that they didn't and that the new sensors are a result of technological R&D,[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207598\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Surely they do market research alright
There is a market for putting these chips in sattelites, spyplanes, medical gear or whatever
I dont think a few cameras nuts who want to make wall size prints is really where there market is at for them at all
The back makers are then left trying to keep going from what is available to them from the spare part bin of these lucrative markets
Initially it was a really good idea to get the chip out of a microscope and stuff it into a box that had a Vmount fitting
Now it would appear that such products are possibly irrelevant to many photographic applications
I, for one, am in no way excited by any of the recent MF chip announcements
The limit of my MF photographic resolution is limited by three factors - my wobbling hands, my wobbling models and 1980s AF technology
Now - 2 D3 chips lashed together - I would be at the front of the queue
22mp 3200 ISO fullframe 645 would rock - Leaf pahse etc need to raid a different set of spare parts bins for thier new products - nikons
S
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This stuff really needs to step into the future.
Turn it over to 20th Century Fox and Bruckheimer.
Let's get infinate resoltuion machines that allow you to take a 7-11 video grab from a $12 camera and read the fine detail of the perps face on a 48" monitor.
Better yet, let's get past all of this 2d stuff and get to real 3d
(http://www.wetanz.com/images/rightcolumn/manmelter_118w.jpg)
Forget about wi-fi'ing a Jpeg to your client, heck, let's just beem the models straight to the magazine.
A device like this would be well worth the 50k it takes to shoot medium format and have multiple uses.
You know, those pesky account executives that say things like, "the client wants a blue background" . . . whack . . . beam them off the set to . . . well you get the idea.
That'll quiet the set down.
Also think about the traffic on La Cienega when your trying to get to location. Pull out your manmelter and zip, road clear, or when the spouse says you spend too much time on the computer?
Come on, Leaf, Phase, Sinar and Imablad.
Give Hollywood a call and while your on it, let's get some renaming of the products.
What's a P21 have to do with 18 mpx, or a P65+ to 60? A 54S? Really.
Let's put some real names on these things (see manmelter for example).
Let's have some gizmos that really wow the clients. Think about it, pulling out a manmelter will draw some attention, especially if you do one of those Klinko harnesses so you can work hands free.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2265/1523919507_b8136362c2.jpg)
We're waiting for inspiration.
JR
Surely they do market research alright
S
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The big question is: did Kodak or Dalsa do any marketing research? It is very likely that they didn't and that the new sensors are a result of technological R&D, rather than what the end users may want. For the back makers their choice can only be as good as what the sensor makers offer to them.
Sensor makers have traditionally been focused on jamming more pixels in a less space, instead of making sensors bigger and leave the pixel count for what it is. We are clearly in a transformation period now, where the demand for more pixels is fading away and the emphasis on better performance of these pixels and a larger taking surface is growing. The MFDB market is at the forefront of ultimate imaging quality. It is a small market by nature and so people using this equipment are what you could call "early adopters" or even "inventors" in marketing terms. They will constantly be challenged by the limitations of the technology which is barely ready to be used outside the lab.
We as photographers already know where we want to be, but the sensor makers don't have much of a clue yet, apart from the fact that they are simply walking on their toes in a technological sense anyway. If you have ever talked to the people at the Dalsa lab (I have) you would know that these are mostly scientists, with very little understanding of the real world environment in which their sensors are being used. Their research is not photography driven (unlike Canon's or Sony's). They think of the use in space telescopes and sattelites, rather than existing photo cameras. Did I try to paint these Dalsa guys a different picture? You bet I did! (Not sure it made much of a difference, but then again: simply pulling the lever in one scientists head may be enough to make a big difference in such a small company. Let's hope for the best.)
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I think you are absolutely correct in that Dalsa and Kodak are the prime movers here. They are thinking more in terms of the needs of NASA, the ESA, the NSA, EADS and other industrial buyers. This is a troubling thought and does not bode well for the MFDB companies if they cannot have input in the design and specs of the main component of their products.
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The following is not aimed at any manufacturer. It is all my opinion, from a people shooter in a major market. Full disclosure: I have a P30+ on an AFd and I love the image quality. My dealer has been fantastic.
The new product announcements from Phase and Blad are symptomatic of the problem with the MFDB and photography industries in general. The reality is this, at least for most people shooters: Rates are down, clients want more services for less money, clients want tethered, most clients don't care or want to know about file size or what you are shooting (they care more about catering), and the investment in equipment has gone up and up, and you must reinvest every three to four years. On top of that, there is less and less need for high quality print collateral. Demand is still there, but you really need max of 30 meg 8 bit CMYK tiffs for most mags, and yes, those bus stop ads from a 1ds look just fine.
In this market, with these realities, we get more expensive backs that give us bigger files? Do any photographers look at ROI? Anyone? Bueller? I know I do. The ROI on an MFDB sucks. No really, it does. Its worse than it was even a year ago because even on editorial shoots they are balking at paying me to rent my own back or they have an arrangement with a rental house, or they want film. Compare this to buying a Sony EX1 for $6500. Complete kit with extra batteries and a few PCI-X 16 gig cards is $10k, that's right, less than a P30+, about on par with a P21+. Just showing up with this cam and pulling focus for 8 hours nets you over $2,000. That's not even directing etc., which, for a one day shoot and some simple motion graphics for a department store's in-store display, gets you $15k. My point is that even mundane jobs with video provide a much, much higher revenue than stills, and gets there with a quarter of the investment. This is why buying two 5D's or used 1ds/1ds2's and a few lenses for less than $10k, renting an MFDB when needed, is the SMART move.
This predicament is, I think, the result of how photographers work versus the way our motion picture bretheren work. Stills require less collaboration on the whole, so stills shooters work in a vacuum. Most studios of most photographers consist of the shooter and a studio manager, perhaps a first assistant. None of these actors are really equiped by education or training to run a business, and they have little contact with other studios regarding rates, practices, etc because we all compete with each other. Motion guys and gals must work with large groups of people because of the complexity of a motion picture shoot. There are also production companies and very sharp business types who have little to do with the technical and artistic side of movie making. These people make the business decisions. With stills, its one guy wears all the hats, and he can't be good at all of functions of running a business. This results in less than optimal business decisions regarding equipment purchases, not to mention getting raped on rates by clients.
Could you imagine if stills guys unionized? The motion guys have been unionized forever. We can't even get the ASMP to respond intelligently to legislation that could take away part of what's left of our IP rights. We can't even stop eachother from undercutting eachother on rates.
This has veered around, but this is the reality of the market these new backs are being pushed into. A situation like this cannot last. There will be a market correction. The question is who or what will be the change agent? I think maybe Red. A new camera that is for the future and that is priced to give a healthy ROI given the fading print market. Then who will be left? the market will be over saturated with manufacturers of pro cameras. Nikon and Canon, Sinar because of their technical/view camera expertise and surprising forsight in making a camera like the ArcTec, and maybe Blad because of their marketing prowess. That being said, they need to get prices down to expand the market. And if they can't because they won't make any money if they charge less, well, that might be end of some companies, or maybe a consolidation.
One question: who really owns Mamiya? Is it really Cosmos? I've heard it was not Cosmos, but rather some other more interesting player. Anyone? Thierry?
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Fortunately there is some hope also: Jenoptik is a rather big player in these industrial uses of CCD's. They also make optical systems for sattelites. If they are smart (and I believe they are) they will combine their specifications into something that their digital back division can also profit from. They did after all acquire Sinar and they paid F&H to make a camera for them. It is unlikely that they made the investment without a selling goal. Their shareholders might have some tough questions otherwise.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207676\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sinar seems really well put together from a business standpoint, although their marketing in the US is REALLY bad. They are really a Mittel Europa company in many ways, which is their strength and their weakness.
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Sinar seems really well put together from a business standpoint, although their marketing in . . .
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=207689\")
[a href=\"http://www.srphotography.co.uk/srphotography-forum/showthread.php?t=735]http://www.srphotography.co.uk/srphotograp...hread.php?t=735[/url]
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http://www.srphotography.co.uk/srphotograp...hread.php?t=735 (http://www.srphotography.co.uk/srphotography-forum/showthread.php?t=735)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207694\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if they ask Donald Trump to use Hy6 exclusively!!!
Perhaps that's the only one left Trump didn't do.....
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http://www.srphotography.co.uk/srphotograp...hread.php?t=735 (http://www.srphotography.co.uk/srphotography-forum/showthread.php?t=735)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207694\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Sinar Hy6: Now in Leopard.
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Sorry for mixing music in here too but today, I was upgrading my ProTools/Avid system to the last 7.4.2 version. This thing is amazing. Working with these tools really make you feel in the future. The software does whatever you can imagine. The hardware is 10+, based on analog technology but redesigned from ground for digital. The workflow is just like a breeze of good feelings. The integration between their programs and support and value of older hardware. The hundreds of plugins from other manufacturers that are compatible. The information on their website. You can buy whatever you need right there in a n instant... And I could go on forever...
Digidesign is a very little company part of Avid but kind of the nr.1 in audio production and video integration. I'm always amazed by their products and their rock solid ultra-modern technology.
They have done everything the last years to put a Protools system in almost every music studio and semiprofessional home-made music room.
And they have done it, with a very transparent marketing and offering options for every wallet. From the great production suites to the entry-level products.
Wish the photography business was at the same stage as music...
At least they could learn how to make an amazing Product Presentation. (http://www.digidesign.com/xtras/console/dcommandes.cfm?langid=151)
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Sorry for mixing music in here too but today, I was upgrading my ProTools/Avid system to the last 7.4.2 version. This thing is amazing. Working with these tools really make you feel in the future. The software does whatever you can imagine. The hardware is 10+, based on analog technology but redesigned from ground for digital. The workflow is just like a breeze of good feelings. The integration between their programs and support and value of older hardware. The hundreds of plugins from other manufacturers that are compatible. The information on their website. You can buy whatever you need right there in a n instant... And I could go on forever...
Digidesign is a very little company part of Avid but kind of the nr.1 in audio production and video integration. I'm always amazed by their products and their rock solid ultra-modern technology.
They have done everything the last years to put a Protools system in almost every music studio and semiprofessional home-made music room.
And they have done it, with a very transparent marketing and offering options for every wallet. From the great production suites to the entry-level products.
Wish the photography business was at the same stage as music...
At least they could learn how to make an amazing Product Presentation. (http://www.digidesign.com/xtras/console/dcommandes.cfm?langid=151)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207708\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I find it so odd that video and music do all of this so much better.
These were taken at Sound on Sound/Right Track in New York in 2005. All Pro Tools, nice board at $500k! I refused to hang a light over it. Oh yeah, a Nikon D200 of all things.
[attachment=7432:attachment][attachment=7433:attachment]
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Exactly James. The RED makes me think also.
It puts the DB makers in a whole new light. It's funny that cinematograhpy changed my way of
thinking about photography. One cam changed my whole mindset about what cams could be and what they should or can cost.
The technology is here to create a total new kind of stillcam.
They should think more out of the box as the RED team does.
I cant believe that the new backs and cams have no new inventions to it.
They just go on with MPs. I dont want to end up with a railgun like Klinko, tough I like his pics ; )
Ah yeah, great post TMARK (the long one). It is crazy, that rates realy go down but the cams realy cost more than before.
Crazy times.
Tim
Here a pic of my 50K monster. You could shoot a Hollywood A Movie with it.
Soderbergh and Matt Damon are doing so right now.
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I find it so odd that video and music do all of this so much better.
These were taken at Sound on Sound/Right Track in New York in 2005. All Pro Tools, nice board at $500k! I refused to hang a light over it. Oh yeah, a Nikon D200 of all things.
[attachment=7432:attachment][attachment=7433:attachment]
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=207709\")
When you see this, you almost see how far behind still photography is next to the world of moving imagery.
[a href=\"https://www.swiftpage7.com/rnakada.rnakada/C080712164900/speasapage.aspx?addr=5158]https://www.swiftpage7.com/rnakada.rnakada/....aspx?addr=5158[/url]
JR
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When you see this, you almost see how far behind still photography is next to the world of moving imagery.
https://www.swiftpage7.com/rnakada.rnakada/....aspx?addr=5158 (https://www.swiftpage7.com/rnakada.rnakada/C080712164900/speasapage.aspx?addr=5158)
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207712\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Looking forward too see "Che". Entirely done with a Red camera I think...
And Avid is involved too of course...
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I find it so odd that video and music do all of this so much better.
The music industry is suffering just as much as photography if not far more.
Digidesign business practices suffer extremely bad press. Locking out basic features
in cheaper systems that are standard in equivalent apps for the same price point.
Digidesign is like Apple. A hardware company that happens to have great software.
Their software is locked down in terms of what hardware can be used which is how
they make their money, but their convertors are middle of the road at best.
Analog to digital conversion is an important step in both photography and music
recording but ultimately the 'driver' has much more say in the final result.
I've seen/heard stellar results produced on very average equipment.
For disclosure, i use and own an HD2 accel system from Digidesign.
I love the software but have added alternative hardware for conversion.
Which is very common.
Sorry for being off-topic.
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All Pro Tools, nice board at $500
I'm sure the software is PT, but that 'nice board' is an SSL, i'll bet they have neve and a bunch
of other pre amps to compliment and i suspect that they have different convertors as well.
Just trying to illustrate here that the conversation is about photography HARDWARE, people are not
discussing photoshop which is really what pro tools is to the recording industry world.
Despite trying to have a strangle hold on hardware.
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Then who will be left? the market will be over saturated with manufacturers of pro cameras. Nikon and Canon, Sinar because of their technical/view camera expertise and surprising forsight in making a camera like the ArcTec, and maybe Blad because of their marketing prowess. That being said, they need to get prices down to expand the market. And if they can't because they won't make any money if they charge less, well, that might be end of some companies, or maybe a consolidation.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207688\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My view is that the business model of MF is dead.
Small series at high prices just don't work in the digital world. They don't provide the sheer investement capability required to push the enveloppe technologically.
In 3 years from now 35mm sensors will probably be RGB, the lenses are already way better and the higher pixel count of MF will not result anymore in any real world advantage.
The only hope for MF is to cut the prices in half and multiply the volume by 4. Kodak, or whatever company providing the sensor, should follow and lower their prices also if long term sustainability is a goal of theirs.
Cheers,
Bernard
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What we need is a 'View Camera' approach to all of this. My Sinar F2 is also a C, and a P2. I can put on any lens I want, any format/type of film from 645 to 4x5. I can use lenses and film backs from Hasselblad or Mamiya.The lens doesn't have a shutter? No problem - I can use a Sinar shutter, or ye olde lens cap, if it's a long enough exposure.
If only someone could come up with a digital MF version of this....
Kumar
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I'm sure the software is PT, but that 'nice board' is an SSL, i'll bet they have neve and a bunch
of other pre amps to compliment and i suspect that they have different convertors as well.
Just trying to illustrate here that the conversation is about photography HARDWARE, people are not
discussing photoshop which is really what pro tools is to the recording industry world.
Despite trying to have a strangle hold on hardware.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207721\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks for the clarification re: ProTools. The studio is pretty incredible. The guy in the pics is a producer/engineer.
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What we need is a 'View Camera' approach to all of this. My Sinar F2 is also a C, and a P2. I can put on any lens I want, any format/type of film from 645 to 4x5. I can use lenses and film backs from Hasselblad or Mamiya.The lens doesn't have a shutter? No problem - I can use a Sinar shutter, or ye olde lens cap, if it's a long enough exposure.
If only someone could come up with a digital MF version of this....
Kumar
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207739\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If anytjing, MF is getting less and less open everyday.
Cheers,
Bernard
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P65+ to be announce on monday by phaseone, 60.5 mpg, sensor size 53,9x40,4, pixel pitch 6x6 micron, 50-800 iso, 1 fps, no info about sensor manufacturer. EC price 26.900 euros +tax. delivery supposed to start in Q4 of 2008.
this is all i know, peter
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207256\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, think about the difraction of lenses... for almost everything printed you need a 50mb 8bit tiff file. Now you can get an almost 200mb file, it means that you can take pictures framing just in the center of the sensor having a total depth of field with f/5.6 ( so beautiful sharpness), than crop the image and still have a very usable file. Of course you need a lot of hard disk for the storage, but guys, as we say in Italy, you can't have the wife drunk and the cask full...
(my apoligise for my english...)
michele
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Excuse me, but I just fell in my swimming pool laughing and am drying off after reading MR's description of the new P65. After two years of listening to the sanctimonius cries of foul by Phase about Hasselblad turning its back on the medium format community by closing the H3D, I learn that Phase has contracted to obtain EXCLUSIVE rights to the latest Dalsa chip! That's right, Leaf and Sinar cannot obtain the latest chip technology from the long term supplier that they have supported and relied on in recent years.
However, I do like the news. The best result would be 4 chip makers supplying chips to MFDB makers, because then we would really have 4 choices to pick among. Me too chips is less than ideal. I fully expect Hasselblad, Leaf and Sinar to respond with their own version of a full frame 645 chip.
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Excuse me, but I just fell in my swimming pool laughing and am drying off after reading MR's description of the new P65. After two years of listening to the sanctimonius cries of foul by Phase about Hasselblad turning its back on the medium format community by closing the H3D, I learn that Phase has contracted to obtain EXCLUSIVE rights to the latest Dalsa chip! That's right, Leaf and Sinar cannot obtain the latest chip technology from the long term supplier that they have supported and relied on in recent years.
However, I do like the news. The best result would be 4 chip makers supplying chips to MFDB makers, because then we would really have 4 choices to pick among. Me too chips is less than ideal. I fully expect Hasselblad, Leaf and Sinar to respond with their own version of a full frame 645 chip.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207882\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
lets see how the chip will behave in terms of centerfold. as far i know till this moment stefan is the only person who was able to write a code for removing it on the fly. i am waiting to see ( ) how the new dalsa will act ....
and i would not be surprised if leaf ( at least ) and maybe also sinar have seen enough of this unresolved and heavy issue ( because it should have been solved by dalsa not by software from the back manufactors ) would not to be sad to leave the dalsa platform for a while.
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I learn that Phase has contracted to obtain EXCLUSIVE rights to the latest Dalsa chip! That's right, Leaf and Sinar cannot obtain the latest chip technology from the long term supplier that they have supported and relied on in recent years.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207882\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If that's the case I think it's great. It will make Hasselblad, Sinar and Leaf think about whatt they have been doing. Not that I like closed systems, I hate the idea, but this is just the result of starting a war. Prepare to fight.... Boring, but that's the way they wanted to have it.
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The music industry is suffering just as much as photography if not far more.
Digidesign business practices suffer extremely bad press. Locking out basic features
in cheaper systems that are standard in equivalent apps for the same price point.
Digidesign is like Apple. A hardware company that happens to have great software.
Their software is locked down in terms of what hardware can be used which is how
they make their money, but their convertors are middle of the road at best.
Analog to digital conversion is an important step in both photography and music
recording but ultimately the 'driver' has much more say in the final result.
I've seen/heard stellar results produced on very average equipment.
For disclosure, i use and own an HD2 accel system from Digidesign.
I love the software but have added alternative hardware for conversion.
Which is very common.
Sorry for being off-topic.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207717\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You can use Protools with other soundcards like M-Audio (PT M-Powered). Protools hardware can be used with any software. And you can connect protools hardware to whatever you want.
When you buy from Digidesign you buy hardware, and you get the best software in the market for free. I don't see that as a locked down system.
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I learn that Phase has contracted to obtain EXCLUSIVE rights to the latest Dalsa chip!
Well, one could interpret it that way, except that it would simply be wrong.
This is not a new chip from Dalsa that Phase One has obtained exclusive rights to, as you incorrectly state. It is a chip designed by Phase One in cooperation with Dalsa, using Phase One technology and patents, which is then being fabricated for Phase One by Dalsa.
There is quite a difference between this and what you have stated, and to my mind little if any similarity to Hasselblad's closing of their once open camera system to competing backs.
Michael
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Well, one could interpret it that way, except that it would simply be wrong.
This is not a new chip from Dalsa that Phase One has obtained exclusive rights to, as you incorrectly state. It is a chip designed by Phase One in cooperation with Dalsa, and which is then being fabricated for Phase One by Dalsa.
There is quite a difference between this and what you have stated, and to my mind little if any similarity to Hasselblad's closing of their once open camera system to competing backs.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207906\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In which case, I want one, even if I have to part exchange body parts to do so.
Quentin
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it sounds great, but... OUCH - that price US$40,000 !!!
any word on what the trade up from a P45+ is going to be Michael?
its a whole new world at that level - we all grumbled at the $28-30k level for 39mp, but now its a new paradigm of pricing. I suspect its also got something to do with harmonising the dollar and euro prices, as they had got too far out of whack with Europeans paying 10,000 Euros more than US photogs for the same back. I expect its a lot closer at this level, and the US price hike to $40k is maybe not such a price hike to Europeans.
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Well, one could interpret it that way, except that it would simply be wrong.
This is not a new chip from Dalsa that Phase One has obtained exclusive rights to, as you incorrectly state. It is a chip designed by Phase One in cooperation with Dalsa, using Phase One technology and patents, which is then being fabricated for Phase One by Dalsa.
There is quite a difference between this and what you have stated, and to my mind little if any similarity to Hasselblad's closing of their once open camera system to competing backs.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207906\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree this is a different situation than Hassy way of doing business. I think this will actually if anything open a lot of doors for Phase in further development of backs for them.
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Well, one could interpret it that way, except that it would simply be wrong.
This is not a new chip from Dalsa that Phase One has obtained exclusive rights to, as you incorrectly state. It is a chip designed by Phase One in cooperation with Dalsa, using Phase One technology and patents, which is then being fabricated for Phase One by Dalsa.
There is quite a difference between this and what you have stated, and to my mind little if any similarity to Hasselblad's closing of their once open camera system to competing backs.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207906\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes - it appears similar to what Sinar and Kodak did with the 22MP chip. This Kodak chip was co-developed with Sinar and Sinar did hold exclusivity for a period of time.
But if we're being precise here, I also would have to question the interpretation of Hasselblad's camera system as "once open, now closed (paraphrasing)". It's true that Hasselblad has not made the 28mm HCD lens available for whatever reason to non-Hasselblad digital backs. But Hasselblad does still produce open platform cameras for 3rd party digital back makers with the 503CW and H2F series cameras.
The HxD camera was never an open camera system from the start with the H1D, and in fact, it is designed to be an integrated digital camera with a matching Hasselblad digital back. This in no way has any affect on whether you can put a 3rd party digital back on a Hasselblad H camera - either H1/H2 or H2F. And this continues with new technology like the HTS 1.5 adapter, which is backwards compatible with all H1/H2/H2F and HxD cameras, regardless of the digital back component.
So, I would question the term "once open camera system".
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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I agree this is a different situation than Hassy way of doing business. I think this will actually if anything open a lot of doors for Phase in further development of backs for them.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207910\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Also it's nice to see that it will work on all camera bodies currently supported.
Lance
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Of course this new information that Phase was involved or even driving the design of the sensor in their new back clears both Kodak and Dalsa from any fault or blame in misunderstanding the needs of MFDB shooters or from failing to do proper market research. Now it can all rest on the shoulders of Phase One - let's hope they deliver!
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after reading michaels announcment i think it sounds great what will do this back.
i agree that one of the best features is the pixel binning, lets see which image quality it will make in the 30mp mode, i expect great things here. for now i wait if leaf and/ or sinar will bring similar improved backs.
but - as i wrote above - i will wait with any opinion till i see if the new backs ( doesnt matter from whom ) will work without any heavy drawbacks, as happened too often in the past with new products. i dont have any tolerance about bringing out products before they are ready for serial productions, wasting a lot of money and time of photographers meanwhile using them as beta testers.
but maybe the back makers have learned from the past, although i seriously doubt it.
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Please correct me if I'm wrong Steve, but I don't believe that one can put a Leaf, Sinar or Phase One back on an H3F with functionality similar to what existed on an H1 or H2? I thought that the F stood for Film, and that's what Hasselblad's web site and literature infers.
Michael
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Hi,
Is there a small typo in P65 preview description stating the shipping time of H3DII-50 to be early 2009? This was extensively discussed (with some humor ) less than week ago here that it's scheduled for delivery in October 2008.
Game on!
J
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Also it's nice to see that it will work on a bodies currently supported.
Lance
Exactly. If Phase had made the P65+ only available on their new camera body I along with everyone else would scream bloody murder, because it would be cynically closing the system. Fortunately, the new back will be available for all currently supported cameras, including those from Phase One, Mamiya, Contax, Hasselblad V and in Hasselblad H1 and H2 configurations.
Michael
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Hi,
Is there a small typo in P65 preview description stating the shipping time of H3DII-50 to be early 2009? This was extensively discussed (with some humor ) less than week ago here that it's scheduled for delivery in October 2008.
Game on!
J
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207918\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My mistake. I've now corrected the article. My understanding of early 2009 was based on an interview I had about 10 days ago with a senior representative from Kodak's sensor division in which I was told that the chip was in sampling now but wouldn't be delivered in quantity till the end of the year.
If Hasselblad is saying delivery in October then I accept that at face value.
Michael
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it sounds great, but... OUCH - that price US$40,000 !!!
any word on what the trade up from a P45+ is going to be Michael?
its a whole new world at that level - we all grumbled at the $28-30k level for 39mp, but now its a new paradigm of pricing. I suspect its also got something to do with harmonising the dollar and euro prices, as they had got too far out of whack with Europeans paying 10,000 Euros more than US photogs for the same back. I expect its a lot closer at this level, and the US price hike to $40k is maybe not such a price hike to Europeans.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207908\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You are right, $4000 in Europe is less than the actual european price for a P45+ kit.
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Will there come a time when due to larger and higher resolution sensors people start to seriously question the quality of their mf-wa-lenses except for a couple of very expensive view-camera lenses? Or are the problems only in the superwide category like 28mm?
Cheers,
J
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Please correct me if I'm wrong Steve, but I don't believe that one can put a Leaf, Sinar or Phase One back on an H3F with functionality similar to what existed on an H1 or H2? I thought that the F stood for Film, and that's what Hasselblad's web site and literature infers.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207917\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have to admit I have not yet put a Leaf Aptus or Sinar eMotion on an H2F (I'm waiting on a test unit from Hasselblad), but it's my understanding you can indeed do that. It may be necessary to utilize a flash sync cable, and that would certainly constitute some step backard for 3rd party users. If that is indeed the case, then we might have to agree on a grey area that while not closed, it is to some degree not as fully functional as the H1/H2 series with 3rd party backs.
I can provide a more complete picture soon.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Well, one could interpret it that way, except that it would simply be wrong.
This is not a new chip from Dalsa that Phase One has obtained exclusive rights to, as you incorrectly state. It is a chip designed by Phase One in cooperation with Dalsa, using Phase One technology and patents, which is then being fabricated for Phase One by Dalsa.
There is quite a difference between this and what you have stated, and to my mind little if any similarity to Hasselblad's closing of their once open camera system to competing backs.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207906\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I did not know Phase was in the business of chip R&D and fabrication. Does Dalsa have another 60mp chip for Leaf and Sinar? Have any of the other state of the art chips in recent years been exclusively available to one MFDB maker?
Interesting questions, but as I said, ultimately irrelevant to me. What is relevant is when all is said and done and all the players have actually delivered their new full frame chips, do any of these new chips advance the state of the art in IQ. A marginal increase in resolution would make zero difference in the quality of my work. It would really be interesting if Hasselblad or Sinar or Leaf came out with a new full frame 645 chip from......Fuji or Sony or CANON, chip makers with a photographic rather than spy satellite background. Hmmmm.
BTW, I would trade the step-up from 39 to full frame 60mp for an LCD like Nikon's in a heartbeat.
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One other thing this does is also maybe help us in the wide angles the 28mm from Mamiya and Hassy are very expensive and giving us FF now across the broad may help some of us just staying with the 35mm lenses. With this thought I maybe finding less need to run out and get a 28mm to a certain point. Not sure my math is even close but my guess now a 28mm would equal maybe a 19mm Full Frame which yes there is a need but some of use maybe able to squeeze by with a 35mm lens that will be more like a 24mm FF 35mm lens. My math maybe wrong
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One other thing this does is also maybe help us in the wide angles the 28mm from Mamiya and Hassy are very expensive and giving us FF now across the broad may help some of us just staying with the 35mm lenses. With this thought I maybe finding less need to run out and get a 28mm to a certain point. Not sure my math is even close but my guess now a 28mm would equal maybe a 19mm Full Frame which yes there is a need but some of use maybe able to squeeze by with a 35mm lens that will be more like a 24mm FF 35mm lens. My math maybe wrong
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207936\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The cost of a 28mm Hasselblad lens is around $4K. The cost of a trade-up from an H3D-39 to a H3DII-50 will be around $28,000! To a full frame H3DII-60, who knows.
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If the photo of the P65+ as shown in Michael's preview article is of an actual production model, then I am quite disappointed with Phase One's continued use of the small LCD monitor screen. I would have hoped for bigger and better (and brighter?) on a $40,000 digital back!
Joe Bossuyt
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If the photo of the P65+ as shown in Michael's preview article is of an actual production model, then I am quite disappointed with Phase One's continued use of the small LCD monitor screen. I would have hoped for bigger and better (and brighter?) on a $40,000 digital back!
Joe Bossuyt
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207938\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Me too!
Michael
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If the photo of the P65+ as shown in Michael's preview article is of an actual production model, then I am quite disappointed with Phase One's continued use of the small LCD monitor screen. I would have hoped for bigger and better (and brighter?) on a $40,000 digital back!
Joe Bossuyt
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207938\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There is enough money on the price tag to include Bigger Screen. I wouldn't worry about it at all, just wait and you'll see it in time for Photokina
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The cost of a 28mm Hasselblad lens is around $4K. The cost of a trade-up from an H3D-39 to a H3DII-50 will be around $28,000! To a full frame H3DII-60, who knows.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207937\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Wow so $28,000 + $33,995 list of H3dII39 = about $62k for a camera system!?!? Upgrade prices have not been announced by Phase , but that seems very steep for being a valued user.
BTW H3DII-60??? Have not heard that announcement.
Lance
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The following is not aimed at any manufacturer. It is all my opinion, from a people shooter in a major market. Full disclosure: I have a P30+ on an AFd and I love the image quality. My dealer has been fantastic.
The new product announcements from Phase and Blad are symptomatic of the problem with the MFDB and photography industries in general. The reality is this, at least for most people shooters: Rates are down, clients want more services for less money, clients want tethered, most clients don't care or want to know about file size or what you are shooting (they care more about catering), and the investment in equipment has gone up and up, and you must reinvest every three to four years. On top of that, there is less and less need for high quality print collateral. Demand is still there, but you really need max of 30 meg 8 bit CMYK tiffs for most mags, and yes, those bus stop ads from a 1ds look just fine.
In this market, with these realities, we get more expensive backs that give us bigger files? Do any photographers look at ROI? Anyone? Bueller? I know I do. The ROI on an MFDB sucks. No really, it does. Its worse than it was even a year ago because even on editorial shoots they are balking at paying me to rent my own back or they have an arrangement with a rental house, or they want film. Compare this to buying a Sony EX1 for $6500. Complete kit with extra batteries and a few PCI-X 16 gig cards is $10k, that's right, less than a P30+, about on par with a P21+. Just showing up with this cam and pulling focus for 8 hours nets you over $2,000. That's not even directing etc., which, for a one day shoot and some simple motion graphics for a department store's in-store display, gets you $15k. My point is that even mundane jobs with video provide a much, much higher revenue than stills, and gets there with a quarter of the investment. This is why buying two 5D's or used 1ds/1ds2's and a few lenses for less than $10k, renting an MFDB when needed, is the SMART move.
This predicament is, I think, the result of how photographers work versus the way our motion picture bretheren work. Stills require less collaboration on the whole, so stills shooters work in a vacuum. Most studios of most photographers consist of the shooter and a studio manager, perhaps a first assistant. None of these actors are really equiped by education or training to run a business, and they have little contact with other studios regarding rates, practices, etc because we all compete with each other. Motion guys and gals must work with large groups of people because of the complexity of a motion picture shoot. There are also production companies and very sharp business types who have little to do with the technical and artistic side of movie making. These people make the business decisions. With stills, its one guy wears all the hats, and he can't be good at all of functions of running a business. This results in less than optimal business decisions regarding equipment purchases, not to mention getting raped on rates by clients.
Could you imagine if stills guys unionized? The motion guys have been unionized forever. We can't even get the ASMP to respond intelligently to legislation that could take away part of what's left of our IP rights. We can't even stop eachother from undercutting eachother on rates.
This has veered around, but this is the reality of the market these new backs are being pushed into. A situation like this cannot last. There will be a market correction. The question is who or what will be the change agent? I think maybe Red. A new camera that is for the future and that is priced to give a healthy ROI given the fading print market. Then who will be left? the market will be over saturated with manufacturers of pro cameras. Nikon and Canon, Sinar because of their technical/view camera expertise and surprising forsight in making a camera like the ArcTec, and maybe Blad because of their marketing prowess. That being said, they need to get prices down to expand the market. And if they can't because they won't make any money if they charge less, well, that might be end of some companies, or maybe a consolidation.
One question: who really owns Mamiya? Is it really Cosmos? I've heard it was not Cosmos, but rather some other more interesting player. Anyone? Thierry?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207688\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just hooked into this thread...
TMARK, you have your head screwed on right, there's a lot of wisdom in this post. ROI on MFDBs does indeed suck.
Will 60Mp earn you more money - or do you just want one? That's the question. No doubt taxi drivers would like to use a BMW M5 for work - same thing really, 4 doors, wheels etc. but for ROI, probably not a good idea.
I'm with the 'more useful features' not the 'bigger is better' camp.
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Wow so $28,000 + $33,995 list of H3dII39 = about $62k for a camera system!?!? Upgrade prices have not been announced by Phase , but that seems very steep for being a valued user.
BTW H3DII-60??? Have not heard that announcement.
Lance
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207947\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think I am off by about six thousand. If he new camera goes for $40K and Hasselblad allows a trad value of $18K for an H3D-39, the delta will be $22K. What do you think Phase will allow for a P45(not Plus) against a P65?
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The only hope for MF is to cut the prices in half and multiply the volume by 4. Kodak, or whatever company providing the sensor, should follow and lower their prices also if long term sustainability is a goal of theirs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207722\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It would seem that Phase thinks different...
40.000 US$ for a P65+... these guys are crazy. Make it 20.000 US$ and I'll buy one.
The second hand P45 and P45+ in the 15.000 - 23.000 US$ range will sell like hot cakes.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I did not know Phase was in the business of chip R&D and fabrication. Does Dalsa have another 60mp chip for Leaf and Sinar? Have any of the other state of the art chips in recent years been exclusively available to one MFDB maker?
There's a world of difference between sensor design and fabrication. A fab costs billions - literally, and therefore there are few of them, especially for CCD devices of the size we're talking about.
Many camera makers have proprietary relationships with chip fabricators. Look at Nikon and Sony, as but one example.
Michael
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Will 60Mp earn you more money - or do you just want one? That's the question.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207949\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, we all invest in our business, usually without a client specifically asking. I've never had a client ask if I had a nicer studio or more luxurious coffee bar, but I have to assume they notice investment and it's appreciated.
Will they notice 60mpx? I don't know.
As far as this camera goes, there is a lot we've been asking for a long time that now seems to be coming. Adjustable iso, faster shooting and a real 645 without a cardboard mask.
For me I kind of wish it didn't come with 60mpx just to get the iso and the frame size, but I guess that's progress.
I would like to know more, such as the lcd, in camera previews, in camera processing, or even in camera color, tone, wb, settings, but since I don't think this is mentioned, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Same with how the variable file size works. Does 1600 iso give you 30mpx, but no moire, or less moire, or more moire?
Is the ISO really true, or is it just a number, because from all the cameras I use I can assure you all ISO is not created equal.
Since I assume this sensor has no microlenses, will it actually have the same sensitivity as the microlense sensors on the P30+ and the P21+?
I do know that the lcd preview of that headshot on Michael's article, doesn't look like the lcd preview I now see on any medium format back (well excepty for the blown out area around the hair).
Actually, I would like to see this moveable iso or pixel binnning or whatever it's called get retro fitted to the other phase backs. I know they had it at one time and it wasn't mentioned much, but I assume it's a firmware/software change more than just a hardware difference.
I wouldn't mind 15.5mpx on my p30+ if it meant a true clean 800 ISO speed.
The most interesting thing about this, from the timing on how it was announced to how the annoucement is not yet complete and detailed, medium format companies seen to spend a lot of time thinking about and reacting to each other.
I would think Canon would be Phase's target, much more than hasselblad, because if Michael's numbers are correct and medium format only sells 6,000 backs a year vs. Canon's 6,000 cameras a day, I know the market I'd target and during the time Dalsa is making these new chips, I'd be over a B+H buying box loads of Fuji point and shoots to rip the lcd's off of them.
Let's be realistic. Medium format in the film days didn't die, or wasn't replaced by 35mm. Medium format was knocked down in the transition to digital because there wasn't anything that mounted on those medium format cameras that came anywhere close to Canons in ease and price.
I know a lot of photographers that shelved thier RZ's, V's, Contax's, Bronica, (even their new H-1's) and bought a few Canons.
If I made or sold cameras I would think of how I could reclaim some of that lost market.
Regardless, this is the PR stage of camera annoucements and though Phase has a good record of putting it on the shelf working and stable, there is a lot of questions to be answered before any money really changes hands.
I must admit my Contaxs would really benefit from a full frame viewfinder and if the iso thing is true and really clean high iso, that could keep the Canons in the bag.
Then again if the adjustable iso thing only gives you up to a clean 800 (real not numbers), then it depends on how much the upgrade costs is.
JR
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Wow so $28,000 + $33,995 list of H3dII39 = about $62k for a camera system!?!? Upgrade prices have not been announced by Phase , but that seems very steep for being a valued user.
BTW H3DII-60??? Have not heard that announcement.
Lance
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207947\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Um, no Lance.
Existing H2D-39/H3D-39/H3DII-39 owners receive approximately $16,500 credit on their system towards an H3DII-50, which leaves a net purchase amount of roughly $23,500.
Hasselblad has also announced a 645 sized sensor, but the details, such as megapixel count, etc, have not yet been disclosed.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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If the P65 has a raft of usability updates I'll be excited. 30 megapix full 645 really would be excellent, especially if it means a faster frame rate. I'm happy with the P30+ ISO for the most part, but improvements are always welcome.
But not for $40k. No way no how. As someone said above: lower price, more volume. This strategy will be a transformative for the MFDB industry. The player that grabs that ring will eat into Canon's market and reap the rewards. Fortune favors the bold, no?
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Fortune favors the bold, no?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=207978\")
[a href=\"http://www.red.com/]http://www.red.com/[/url]
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I think I am off by about six thousand. If he new camera goes for $40K and Hasselblad allows a trad value of $18K for an H3D-39, the delta will be $22K. What do you think Phase will allow for a P45(not Plus) against a P65?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207952\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Where's Lance????
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http://www.red.com/ (http://www.red.com/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207980\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Get 100% of the purchase price of a Red One credited when you upgrade to the Epic. Wow.
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Um, no Lance.
Existing H2D-39/H3D-39/H3DII-39 owners receive approximately $16,500 credit on their system towards an H3DII-50, which leaves a net purchase amount of roughly $23,500.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207975\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not a knock on blad, just in still photography in general. From a 1 year old system to a new system with 20% . . . 25% more detail at that price it's just . . . staggering.
JR
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If the photo of the P65+ as shown in Michael's preview article is of an actual production model, then I am quite disappointed with Phase One's continued use of the small LCD monitor screen. I would have hoped for bigger and better (and brighter?) on a $40,000 digital back!
Joe Bossuyt
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=207938\")
Listen to these interviews and see how important a really proper preview lcd image is.
[a href=\"http://www.red.com/interviews]http://www.red.com/interviews[/url]
No difference in cinema or stills.
As the artist we have to see what we are shooting, adjust, correct, shoot again, reload and whether it's in a tent holding a field monitor, or a still digital tech with a computer, those types of tethered previews takes all the energy away from the scene and distance us from our subjects.
I'd pay $5,000 for a decent preview on my digital backs. Actually (I know this will never happen) I'd suggest the camera companies just make better ones and change them out at costs with a note that said, "uh sorry, we made a mistake, here's the correct lcd".
JR
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the more I think about it, the more it seems the $40,000 price looks like a correction to the US price, to bring it into line with the price in Euros that was set years ago. when the currencies were more equally pegged - but... with current exchange rates it couldnt stay that low for US customers, as it warped the global price field. so Phase seem to have taken the chance on this, their new ultimate sensor, to upgrade this US$ price to a new higher point. I imagine in the Euro zone the increase will be far less than the 33% (P45 new price c.f. P65 new list price) for US buyers. Anyone know the euro price level - is it 33% above what it was, or not?
I guess this means that existing US$ P45+ customers have a good deal as they have a back that was sold too low $ relative to European pricing - and it should hold its value pretty well considering the new offerings price.
Of course whether other MF manufacturers play along with this gambit is another question, but Hasselblads 50mp pricing seems to indicate they are also hoping to reset to a higher point for the newest sensors.
Pretty brave gamble in the middle of a recession to do this to the worlds biggest market, but lets see!
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deleted...
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the more I think about it, the more it seems the $40,000 price looks like a correction to the US price, to bring it into line with the price in Euros that was set years ago. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207995\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Interesing, knowing that the sensor - supposed to be by far the most expensive part - is bought from a Canadian supplier that should not be impacted much by the strong Euro...
Either Phaseone is being ripped by Dalsa, or we are being ripped by Phase.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Please correct me if I'm wrong Steve, but I don't believe that one can put a Leaf, Sinar or Phase One back on an H3F with functionality similar to what existed on an H1 or H2? I thought that the F stood for Film, and that's what Hasselblad's web site and literature infers.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207917\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The drawback was that a digital back of a 3rd party needs a sync cable however a Hasselblad CF back had full functionality. This is a sign that it is possible to use the H2F with a digital back with full functionality.
A 3rd party vendor could make that to work. Kind of like the situation that Leaf & Sinar are pointing out that the Hy6/Afi is open and that Phase could be making a mount for themselves if they would want to.
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Capture Integration will be posting further details and background to our website early tomorrow morning. I'm sure Lance, Chris, or Dave will post a link as soon as it is live.
Stay tuned...
Doug Peterson
Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer (http://www.captureintegration.com)
Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)
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No need to do the math yourself. Just use our handy focal length equivalency calculator. (http://www.captureintegration.com/tools/our-tools/). I've just updated it with the P65+ sensor size.
28mm lens used with a P65+ is the same as an 18mm lens used with full-frame 35mm body (e.g. 1Ds Mark III)
35mm lens used with a P65+ is the same as a 22mm lens used with full-frame 35mm body (e.g. 1Ds Mark III)
Doug
One other thing this does is also maybe help us in the wide angles the 28mm from Mamiya and Hassy are very expensive and giving us FF now across the broad may help some of us just staying with the 35mm lenses. With this thought I maybe finding less need to run out and get a 28mm to a certain point. Not sure my math is even close but my guess now a 28mm would equal maybe a 19mm Full Frame which yes there is a need but some of use maybe able to squeeze by with a 35mm lens that will be more like a 24mm FF 35mm lens. My math maybe wrong
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207936\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Hi
With the P 65+ having a larger sensor & there association with Mamiya this will be good news for the RZ 67 camera users.
Denis
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Hi
With the P 65+ having a larger sensor & there association with Mamiya this will be good news for the RZ 67 camera users.
Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208018\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yeah, kind of, but why do you say this now?
The RZ67 is, and has been, one of THE BEST systems to use a digital back with because of the high quality lenses, the focusing, viewfinder, flash sync speed, rotating back, and interchangeable viewfinders.
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What about the new LCDs? Do they still suck?
As a RED owner I cant believe this anymore.
My RED LCD is around 1700 bucks and it kicks ass big time.
I thought about mounting it on my stillcam that would be killer.
At least the DB makers could provide some plugs to put our own LCDs in.
As James mentioned, I also would pay up to 5000 bucks to get a nice LCD for a DB.
Those 5000$ would be wise spent. How can RED do it, but all the DB makers can't.
RED sells about 3500 cams this year. Dont tell me about volume. There are lots of tricks to get your LCDs cheap if you need them. Ever heard about group buy?
Let's write a letter to all DB makers and tell them to buy their LCDs in a group buy with the other makers.
Maybe then we will get some great LCDs on our backs. Damn.
Tim
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http://www.phaseone.com/ (http://www.phaseone.com/)
it's official now
what are "upgradeable CCD functions,"?
Lens+ Focus+ Sensor+...money+??
The usual marketing talk i guess
maybe the screen IS better? and they forgot to mention.
They really can't put larger screens in there, without re-designing the back. The 4 button design is easy and everthing, but it came with the original P20/P25 and i was quite sure that it would be redesigned this time. It's probably not an easy task: where to put a large sensor, a large screen, a battery, (for some) an internal memory, some buttons, in a back that can't be larger than a 645 film cassette.
Lets' be positive, maybe the Dalsa chip finally allows us shifting and tilting without CC correction, something P1 should have mentioned in their marketing talk.
Tom
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What about the new LCDs? Do they still suck?
As a RED owner I cant believe this anymore.
My RED LCD is around 1700 bucks and it kicks ass big time.
I thought about mounting it on my stillcam that would be killer.
At least the DB makers could provide some plugs to put our own LCDs in.
As James mentioned, I also would pay up to 5000 bucks to get a nice LCD for a DB.
Those 5000$ would be wise spent. How can RED do it, but all the DB makers can't.
RED sells about 3500 cams this year. Dont tell me about volume. There are lots of tricks to get your LCDs cheap if you need them. Ever heard about group buy?
Let's write a letter to all DB makers and tell them to buy their LCDs in a group buy with the other makers.
Maybe then we will get some great LCDs on our backs. Damn.
Tim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208025\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
why just add av out? ive been using a small 8 inch lcd attached to the side of my canon when its in rigs that i cant get access to. its not a bad picture, and its large.
phase could sell a seperate back sized screen to click onto the back.
paul
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Interesing, knowing that the sensor - supposed to be by far the most expensive part - is bought from a Canadian supplier that should not be impacted much by the strong Euro...
Either Phaseone is being ripped by Dalsa, or we are being ripped by Phase.
Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208002\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Bernard, we europeans has been ripped of for a long time now. The price of the new P65 is almost the same (actually cheaper) as a new P45+ kit. That means they are actually lowering their prices. From our eyes of course....
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Gidday,
All ready talking to the Phase rep in New Zealand.
Hope I get a good trade in on my Aptus 75.
Simon
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why just add av out? ive been using a small 8 inch lcd attached to the side of my canon when its in rigs that i cant get access to. its not a bad picture, and its large.
phase could sell a seperate back sized screen to click onto the back.
paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208032\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Great idea Paul. That's what I ment. They sould provide us with an av out that gives a high resolution picture out of the cam.
The RED gives you a full hd out even with 120fps. Razor sharp. So this shouldn't be a problem for a DB. Now that would be a great on set control monitor for our stillcams.
Tim
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Great idea Paul. That's what I ment. They sould provide us with an av out that gives a high resolution picture out of the cam.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208042\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So why not just shoot tethered? That brings other advantages with it.
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I've been bitching and moaning about the poor screen on the P backs for years. The new screens on the Plus backs were a minor improvement at best.
Whenever I've raised the issue with Phase management or engineers what I'm told is that the problem is both heat and battery life. The larger and brighter the screen the more heat it generates and the greater its effect on image quality. Also, the larger and brighter the screen the more battery drain, and Phase backs are already battery vampires.
It would seem to me that the new OLED screens would address both issues, but who knows? There may be sourcing and supply issues, or technical ones which we are not aware of.
Speaking more generally, it amazes me when people think that camera companies are not aware of what their customers are saying. Maybe in the case of the Japanese companies they are a bit more insular, but I know that their European and American management make sure regularly that the factories know what their customers are saying.
In the case of companies like Phase One, and the others like Sinar and Leaf and Hasselblad, their management is VERY aware of what is being said by their dealers and customers, as well as on forums such as this.
But knowing that you have a shitty screen isn't enough. You then have to solve the supply, manufacturing and technical issues. Sometimes there are factors involved which we as simple users are not aware of. In previous lives I've run medium to large high-tech companies (two of them public) and am well aware of the push / pull that these factors exert on management and engineering. Things aren't always the way that they appear from the outside.
And as for the pricing issue, which Bernard has been harping on, all I can say is that Phase One is owned and run by its management team. There's no outside board, and no mega-corporation behind the scenes and who might have other agendas calling the shots. One can only assume that Phase, like other management owned and run companies, are driven by the desire to succeed, which means making the best products that they can and subsequently making the most money that they can for their shareholders (themselves). If that means selling a product at a price which seems to high to some, then there obviously is a reason for this. Spreadsheet jockeying is easy. One can make assumptions about sales volumes, material and manufacturing costs and decide how best to price a product.
As potential consumers we can then decide whether or not the price / value relationship works for us or not. But to assume that the people that make these decisions are stupid is to miss the point. They're not. The just have taken the factors available to them and made certain (hard) decisions.
Sometimes they're right, and sometimes they're wrong. It's as easy as that, or as hard as that, because sometimes making what turns out to be the best decision isn't always easy. A good case in point is one that I've harped on for the past two years in which a certain camera company made a product / marketing decision which I found at fault, and I've said so publicly on more than one occasion. Am I right and their management wrong? We don't know yet. But in any event, if they're right or wrong their jobs and livelihoods depend on it, not to mention their shareholders interests. If I turn out to be right or wrong I simply smile, or say mea culpa, depending on the result.
Being a pundit vs being a manager is a bit like the situation at the breakfast table for the pig and the chicken.
The chicken is involved. The pig is committed. In this case we're the chickens – interested, but not as commited as the pigs.
Michael
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No need to do the math yourself. Just use our handy focal length equivalency calculator. (http://www.captureintegration.com/tools/our-tools/). I've just updated it with the P65+ sensor size.
28mm lens used with a P65+ is the same as an 18mm lens used with full-frame 35mm body (e.g. 1Ds Mark III)
35mm lens used with a P65+ is the same as a 22mm lens used with full-frame 35mm body (e.g. 1Ds Mark III)
Doug
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208016\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Doug i was somewhat close but those new focal lengths are pretty powerful. I forgot I had that calculator myself in my office.
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I've been bitching and moaning about the poor screen on the P backs for years. The new screens on the Plus backs were a minor improvement at best.
Whenever I've raised the issue with Phase management or engineers what I'm told is that the problem is both heat and battery life. The larger and brighter the screen the more heat it generates and the greater its effect on image quality. Also, the larger and brighter the screen the more battery drain, and Phase backs are already battery vampires.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208045\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
one of the best screens i have seen is on my little fuji f30. its 3", very bright and sharp and ....
the little battery in this camera is by far the most longlife battery i ever saw. you can make holidays with one battery without recharging it.
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mobility.
one thing I hate about assignments is they all ask me to shoot tethered, I hate the hassle of wires. IF mfdb makers could provide something like canon WFT-E2, it will be great, you know they dont have to use the military wifi technology, just 802.11g/n is enough for jpeg preview transmition. And for me this is even a better choice than a good large built-in LCD
So why not just shoot tethered? That brings other advantages with it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208043\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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mobility.
one thing I hate about assignments is they all ask me to shoot tethered, I hate the hassle of wires. IF mfdb makers could provide something like canon WFT-E2, it will be great, you know they dont have to use the military wifi technology, just 802.11g/n is enough for jpeg preview transmition. And for me this is even a better choice than a good large built-in LCD
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208054\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I also dislike wires, but it seems that people here are willing to spend $5000 on an external LCD screen for the back, but why not just add a laptop for a lot less? I don't see the logic.
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So why not just shoot tethered? That brings other advantages with it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208043\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The real thing is that we see so many options in dslrs, red cams, etc. and wonder why the medium format previews suck. A real lcd brings all kinds of advantages (and a video out can be really handy for using medium sized battery powered lcds). Sure, shooting tethered is great, especially when starting out a shoot to really get the light dialed in, but I really like to unplug after i get the look nailed (if an art director doesn´t need to see every shot). Mobility is really important for some people. For example, I just did an editorial in an area in madrid where even just a tall model, my team and my camera was attention getting enough. A laptop would have made it a nightmare. (think edge of city, falling down buildings and gypsies yelling Guapa! and offering their house for the shoot in exchange for money...)
I shoot with an h2 and p30 a bit, but I find myself having to resort to my 1dsmkII for lots of things because its iso 400 and 800 are cleaner, I look at the lcd and see what I´m getting amongst other things.
If this p65+ can get me a fairly clean iso 800 (I don´t mind some texture, that can look really great) a 1fps if not more and has a REAL PREVIEW, i´ll be much more likely to rent it and consider it as permanent tool in my arsenal.
Oh and being an emerging photographer and making sure every purchase makes sense (fiscal responsibility is everything for me right now) will make or break me. I need to have thousands in the bank and on the card to be able to rent whatever I require for a shoot. 40k just seems crazy to me for another still camera when my clients are extremely happy with 1dsmkII files or p30+ files. give me a real reason phase to want your camera and back. Warmed over updates won´t do this day and age. Editorial pays less and less and recession means tightened budgets on commercial shoots. Its not that well established shooters aren´t getting their rates, its the emerging shooters that really struggle in these times, and access to great tools shouldn´t be so prohibitive.
I look around at all the shooters I know and maybe 1/4 shoot medium format digital for more than 50% of their work, not because its quality, but because of price and usability. Don´t make me pay more and make my work harder. I just see in some ways medium format kind of glazing over the emerging shooters needs and budgets. I mean 40k will get me a couple of great productions for my book, promotion, and a flight to nyc to show it around. Compel me phase, make me want your product, make me NEED your product. And then put it at a price that makes some sense. (I´m talking paying for what you get).
My clients want me to listen to them, and appreciate it when I pay attention to the little details. I guess, I just want Phase to listen to me and answer why the lcds have to suck so badly at the price that backs come out at. I mean, a 30 inch eizo, 30 INCHES and what does that cost? I´m just asking for 2 inches (3 would be amazing). Digital is all about instant feedback, make that work. Please?
And micheal, I´m sure there are lots of factors that go into the developing, manufacturing, etc that we´ll never know. You make some great points. But still, when you come out with a new product, make it a real upgrade. I just hope this one is.
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Gidday,
All ready talking to the Phase rep in New Zealand.
Hope I get a good trade in on my Aptus 75.
Simon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208037\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If you do, tell me how you did it. I couldn't even get an offer from phaseone for my Leaf back. Maybe it's just the German dealers who aren't interested...
good luck!
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Where's Lance????
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207983\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ok it's Monday morning and I am back (sorry it was Sunday )
Here is some of the information that was presented to us on Friday
•P65+ back,
• Price adjustments on Refurbished Backs will post separate
•T/S lens
• Enhancements to CaptureOne Pro 4.1 for Hasselblad V and H series lenses.
New P65+ digital back specs/features :
It features a Dalsa sensor that has been developed with close cooperation from Phase One and includes many Phase One patents. This chip is exclusive to Phase One.
The dimensions are 53.9mmx40.4mm @ 6x6 micron – 60.5 MP CCD.
Lens magnification is 1.0x ! 20% larger image area then the 36x49mm CCD.
180MB TIF file in 8-bit RGB
Raw IIQL file size – 60MB
Raw IIQS file size – 40MB
(keep in mind the H25 which was 22MP in RAW 3.0 format had a RAW file size of about 43MB)
Capture Rates as fast as 1 frame/sec
ISO range 50-800
12.5 f-stops DR
Optimized for T&S and Wide Angle (less lens cast calibration required)
Exposure range 1/4000 to 1 min
Available in P/M645AFD , V, H and Contax Mount
Performance of CCD can be upgraded with new features as they become available with Phase One Sensor+ technology. Here are a few bullet points they mentioned that over time they will be able to provide:
Scalable pixel/file size
Higher Sensitivity and larger dynamic range
Increased flexibility for operation and capture
Improved capture rates
Showing at Photokina 2008 and Shipping will start in Q4/2008
P65+ Classic - $39,990
P65+ VA - $42,990
P65+ Classic bundle w/ PhaseOne 645AF system $41,990
P65+ VA bundle w/ PhaseOne 645AF system $45,990
If you order a P65+ today you may pay for a P45+ and then pay the difference when your P65+ is ready to be shippied.
Upgrade pricing has not been announced yet . We will follow up with it as soon as it does.
New T/S lens
This is a new lens that PhaseOne is bringing to market that has a focal length of 45mm (eqiv. To 24mm for 35mm camera). It is manual focus, and has an aperture range of 3.5-22 . Starting to ship in July for $3990. It is for the PhaseOne/Mamiya 645AF mount.
CaptureOne 4.1x
Enhancements for other lenses with Focus+ and Lens+
Being released next month a FREE plug in will be available for using the Lens+ and Focus+ tools to: Remove lens artifacts, correct for color aberration and fringing and provide improvements of image sharpness and resolution. This is for all Hasselblad H and V series lenses
As we get more information we will post it.
Always if you have any questions please contact myself, Chris, Dave or Doug here at Capture Integration.
Also more information up on our website
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
877-217-7870
Capture Integration
lance@captureintegration.com
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Ah man , anyone want to buy a piece of my house. LOL
Lance some really great news for the industry there. That T/S I WANT. July you mean like now it is available.
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It features a Dalsa sensor that has been developed with close cooperation from Phase One and includes many Phase One patents. This chip is exclusive to Phase One.
Oh, interesting.
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Bernard, we europeans has been ripped of for a long time now. The price of the new P65 is almost the same (actually cheaper) as a new P45+ kit. That means they are actually lowering their prices. From our eyes of course....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208033\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
well that settles it then if the new P65+ back is nearly the same price as a P45+ in Europe, but leaps from $30K to $40k in USA ($43k with 3 year value added...!) it's clearly to reset their US prices, and align them to Euro-zone and other territories.
Fair enough I guess if you are a European company who has seen your revenues seriously decline as the American Peso devalues thanks to George W's total mis-management of the economy.
I imagine P45+ is going to hold its value quite well under the new pricing, so thats good for current owners.
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on another note - if this is a Dalsa sensor, does that mean it doesn't need the 'wake up' time +cord, that Phase backs needed with Alpa cameras etc, and their Kodak sensors.
Up till now Alpa / View camera usage was slightly easier with Leaf/Dalsa because it was 'instant on', whereas Phase needed to be primed, now however.... that could be fixed? It is some kind of trade for the loss of super-long exposures, I guess.
any word if this is so Chris/ Michael?
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on another note - if this is a Dalsa sensor, does that mean it doesn't need the 'wake up' time +cord, that Phase backs needed with Alpa cameras etc, and their Kodak sensors.
Up till now Alpa / View camera usage was slightly easier with Leaf/Dalsa because it was 'instant on', whereas Phase needed to be primed, now however.... that could be fixed? It is some kind of trade for the loss of super-long exposures, I guess.
any word if this is so Chris/ Michael?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208073\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I cant imagine that would be the case. wake-up architecture is not a sensor dependent issue to my knowledge, but rather a back operation architecture. To have "instant on" you have to have the CCD on at all time and therefore require active cooling with a fan. Phase One's system was designed to keep the CCD cool without a fan.
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Speaking more generally, it amazes me when people think that camera companies are not aware of what their customers are saying. Maybe in the case of the Japanese companies they are a bit more insular, but I know that their European and American management make sure regularly that the factories know what their customers are saying.
In the case of companies like Phase One, and the others like Sinar and Leaf and Hasselblad, their management is VERY aware of what is being said by their dealers and customers, as well as on forums such as this.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208045\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I know they are aware of the lcd, semi aware of the previews, not that aware of in camera processing and defineable settings and nowhere near aware of skin tone rendering, in different lighting situations.
At least not with the people I talk to. (Phase is not singled out on that statement).
Phase is committed, hell all of us are committed, but the real test is to shoot an image on a medium format back, point the lcd at the medium format back maker and ask this question . . .
Would you bet $100,000 of your own money that this photograph is correct?
The thing is at $40,000 the camera makers are in real professional territory where the compromises should be very small. After all they are now at 5 times the price of a Canon or Nikon.
Whew . . . 5 times.
LCD preview, post processing, color rendering, (especially in ambient subdued light) should be perfect. Multiple monitors, video out, should be a standard. Additional battery packs, real professional battery chargers that don't look they came from Casio should be a given and most importantly direct manufacturer repsonse should be 24-7. None of this call a dealer and start a case thing.
The cameras should also be no compromise. It just amazes me that not one new medium format camera has a right angle grip. Even Nikon's $2,000 dslr has one.
As far as ISO, I hope with the pixel binning thing that a clean 1000 iso and I hope that means 30mpx rather than 15mpx to get there.
Remember there is a simple 22mpx $8,000 upgrade to get to a clean 800 iso and that's called a 1ds3.
Then again the Dalsa chipped camera I used before was very overly optomistic on their ISO settings, where 400 was really 200, 200 was 100 etc. etc.
Consequently 400 iso on the P30+ really matches my 400 iso on the Canons (if the Canons are a benchmark).
Regardless of how this sounds, I'm not down on this camera, because it's not in the market yet and until you drive it like you stole it, it really doesn't matter what they put in PR releases.
Also knowing Phase I'm sure when they deliver it it will be stable and sturdy.
I still know that if Phase, or Leaf, or Hasselblad had a system that was ONLY professional like the Red, with no consumer bits, well thought out previews, a huge accessory line and a system that looked like it could continue on for decades, that $40,000 investment would be a lot easier check to write.
When you put $40,000 on the sticks you want the room to go wow, not oh yea, a lot of people have those.
Then again, if medium format doesn't hit all the buttons and make their products ground breaking and you want to save 20 or 30 thousand there is always my sticker upgrade package.
(http://ishotit.com/upgrade_package.jpg)
JR
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I also dislike wires, but it seems that people here are willing to spend $5000 on an external LCD screen for the back, but why not just add a laptop for a lot less? I don't see the logic.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208057\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's not the money, or the computers. Hell we carry 4 computers to set.
It's that depending on the room, sometimes you don't want to show the image to the world, sometimes you want to show the image to all the world.
Look . . . the previews in medium format are just awful. We have all put up with it, all worked around it, all talked about it, all tried various ways to improve it and at $20,000 it's hard to take that the preview is that bad, but at $40,000, no way can it be accepted and the excuses are getting as little thin.
There has to be another option rather than putting a blackout tent on location and running over every few frames to make sure you have the shot.
Also don't you find it a little silly that polaroid has been replaced by 500 lbs of comptuer, cart, generators and montiors?
Listen to those Red interviews. to a person every one of thos acclaimed directors and cinematographers mentions how great it is NOT to have a tech running around behind the camera or to be hooked to a wire.
When I shoot tethered it's a fight for the project not to get flat flooted. You can feel the wire, you can hear the comments and see all the buzz going to the computer rather than to the camera and the set.
I want the creative's involved, but sometimes I don't want everyone in the room making comments, because it is just an energy drain.
There should be options from Ipod type devices, all the way to huge plasma displays, but for 40 grand, there should be options.
It really isn't about the camera, we don't walk into the room because of the camera, we walk in the room to make the photograph.
The camera should be adaptable for any scenario and most importantly not get in the way.
I get a kick out of these conversations because everytime there is a new annoucement, HY6, Mamiya, Phase, Hasselblad, it's like the second coming, but when you boil it all down, you have to step back and say will this $40,000 make my photos better.
Graham, will an Hy6 make your photos better? Will it make you more money?
And if it will when you going to buy a few?
JR
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The cameras should also be no compromise. It just amazes me that not one new medium format camera has a right angle grip. Even Nikon's $2,000 dslr has one.
Do you mean something like a battery grip? Why should the Hy6 have one? The camera never needs to be rotated, which is even better than Canikon.
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I still know that if Phase, or Leaf, or Hasselblad had a system that was ONLY professional like the Red, with no consumer bits, well thought out previews, a huge accessory line and a system that looked like it could continue on for decades, that $40,000 investment would be a lot easier check to write
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This and the details at http://www.phaseone.com/Content/p1digitalb...troduction.aspx (http://www.phaseone.com/Content/p1digitalbacks/P65plus/Introduction.aspx) seem to confirm what a number of us have been saying:
binning (and even downsamping in raw conversion) can give a lower pixel count with improvement in both dynamic range and noise level "per pixel", through partial cancellation of the noise (signal fluctuations) from adjacent photosites.
Scalable pixel/file size
* Higher Sensitivity and larger dynamic range *
Increased flexibility for operation and capture
Improved capture rates
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208062\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The improved capture rates suggests that this works by the sensor itself outputting fewer pixels. I recall a Dalsa presentation a year or so ago on new technology for binning on color sensors.
Then again, Kodak is also doing color binning in at least on one interline CCD. So we might soon see 30MP and 15MP lower noise, higher frame rate options in 60MP 645 format sensors from both Kodak and Dalsa.
Such binned output should have lees moiré than sensors of those lower photosite counts.
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New T/S lens
This is a new lens that PhaseOne is bringing to market that has a focal length of 45mm (eqiv. To 24mm for 35mm camera). It is manual focus, and has an aperture range of 3.5-22 . Starting to ship in July for $3990. It is for the PhaseOne/Mamiya 645AF mount.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208062\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Please tell me they're not going to charge 3990$ for a reworked Hartblei 45mm f/3.5 Super-Rotator
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The Machines will win this one...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208085\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Will they have a better screen, that is the question.
I tend to agree with everything James R said so succinctly. In this day & age with recession upon us, LCD is not that difficult to give to the buyers of $40k back - [span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\']the fastest devaluing hardware on the planet[/span]. LCD getting hot don't fly with me, as one can put LCD on a swingout arm, like Red & all other camcorders do. Instead of exulting the patent pending virtues of brand new 645, Spend R&D money on things customers WANT.
Based on Phase misleading higher ISOs, I have qualms @ their D.R specs. It seems strange that newer better model can shoot up to only ONE MINUTE compared to older +models to hours. I am surprised. There goes landscaping (H2O motion) & Architectural market.
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New T/S lens
This is a new lens that PhaseOne is bringing to market that has a focal length of 45mm (eqiv. To 24mm for 35mm camera). It is manual focus, and has an aperture range of 3.5-22 . Starting to ship in July for $3990. It is for the PhaseOne/Mamiya 645AF mount.
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
877-217-7870
Capture Integration
lance@captureintegration.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208062\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Lance: Who makes the 45 mm T/S lens?
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on another note - if this is a Dalsa sensor, does that mean it doesn't need the 'wake up' time +cord, that Phase backs needed with Alpa cameras etc, and their Kodak sensors.
Up till now Alpa / View camera usage was slightly easier with Leaf/Dalsa because it was 'instant on', whereas Phase needed to be primed, now however.... that could be fixed? It is some kind of trade for the loss of super-long exposures, I guess.
any word if this is so Chris/ Michael?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=208073\")
It is a Dalsa sensor. I'm not sure about the need for a wake up cable yet, but will post as soon as I know if it is needed or not. The exposures will be shorter that what you are used to on the P+ backs. Currently the P+ backs can do 1 hr. + exposures, but I was told the P65+ will only handle 1 minute exposures at this point.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year[/url]
877-217-9870 | National
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Instead of exulting the patent pending virtues of brand new 645, Spend R&D money on things customers WANT.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208089\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Two things medium format must do before I or anyone I know will write a bigger check.
1. Give me something I can't do without. Make is so what I presently own would be embarassing on a large project.
2. Don't send out 1/2 detailed press repeases and pdf's. Get to the facts about iso, lcds, speed, battery life, computer requirements etc. etc. etc. etc.
We all see the pdf's and all of them are a lot of sizzle withhout a lot of steak.
I know that medium format seems to be in this arms race of who is bigger and better, but we're professionals so just give us the facts man.
JR
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In the days of the IBM mainframe, whenever they caught wind that a competitor was bringing out a new model IBM would issue a releases about THEIR new model with equivalent or better features. The fact that no such product yet existed didn't matter, it was all about creating fear and doubt in the minds of their customers.
Enough said.
Michael
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In the days of the IBM mainframe, whenever they caught wind that a competitor was bringing out a new model IBM would issue a releases about THEIR new model with equivalent or better features. The fact that no such product yet existed didn't matter, it was all about creating fear and doubt in the minds of their customers.
Enough said.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208100\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The point? I think the crescendo of disappointment that has appeared here in response to the Phase and Hasselblad announcements is not due to the fact that they have made premature announcements. It's over the fact that there is so little to be excited over in what thay have announced. I only wish that one of the MFDB makers would prematurely announce a new 3-4" LCD with the quality of the Nikon D3 or better.
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In the days of the IBM mainframe, whenever they caught wind that a competitor was bringing out a new model IBM would issue a releases about THEIR new model with equivalent or better features. The fact that no such product yet existed didn't matter, it was all about creating fear and doubt in the minds of their customers.
Enough said.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208100\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
We all know they do this and we all get sucked into it. After all this thread will probably hit 10,000 reads before it's done.
The thing is I believe it takes validty away from the maker, as much as add a positive buzz.
Michael, you talk to the makers of this equipment a lot more than me, but in the conversations I've had with all of them asking a quesiton, like FF or lcd's, gets a response like they are giving away goverment security secrets, when it reality it's just a simple question like, "is there a way to put an external port on this camera to plug in a better lcd?".
I work in a world where I have to give direct answers, sometimes not to my benefit.
If a client asks me where a location is I have to answer Miami, not "well, you see, somewhere in the Southeast United States, though if you will write the P.O. I'll tell you.".
All of the makers suffer from a form of clairty. It's funny, medium format does a lot of things really well, but putting out real information is not one of them.
Real world use of cameras and backs has been boiled down to sound bites of megapixels and frame size which is somewhat of a shame because there is reasons to buy certain cameras, but rarely do those reasons get advertised or published.
JR
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That T/S I WANT. July you mean like now it is available.
Is this lens a new design from Mamiya?
I have heard that it is a Hartblei product but haven't heard whether it is a new design
or whether it is a rebranded version of their Super-Rotator 45mm that Michael reviewed
a few years back.
Since that review discussed a pricepoint of around $1K the new $3K+ would hopefully
involve some improvements
MT
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I think the future is so bright we can't see it...even with shades on. I doubt seriously that professional photography has decades left in it. Like the dude in The Matrix said when the train was coming to run down Neo..."Hear that sound Mr Anderson? That's the sound of inevitability" No use planning for decades when you can hardly see to the next couple years. Technology is advancing so quickly that I feel we're will no longer be needed. CAD and the such will do us in.
The Machines will win this one...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208085\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You said it brother. The big picture questions have been haunting me the last year or so. I live in NYC and have a kid. I don't want to live extravegantly. My wife is an MUA and sometimes makes good money, most of the time she stays home with baby. I don't have enough patience to fake it for too long, so shooting flat lit Verizen ads all year would kill me, even though the cash is appreciated. I pay health insurance for a family. I need about $200k before taxes to support this life style. With this in mind, I started thinking, honestly, about the future.
Can I make $200k a year for the next 30 years as a stills shooter? No way. All of the banal questions of bit depth and chip size is inconsequential when you think about where things are going: CAD will take over for products, video will consume much of commercial work, magazines will all but retreat online, leaving only the bottom (celebrity) and really high end mags ($25 bucks an issue, well printed, thick and full of words and pictures). What's left for stills shooters? The "Fine Art" market of Alec Soth wanna bes? The high end mags?, which, if todays model is followed, will not pay for editorial? Some stills for the web, shot adjunct to video? Penny stock? Crowd sourced shit pics? Where will the money come from, in 2018, to support a $40,000 ($60k with bodies/lenses) still camera?
The entire stills market is imploding, and what is dropped into this cauldron are more and more really expensive pieces of hardware. These backs really are magnificent, and I'm sure there will be a small number of photographers using them in 2018, but its a dead end for most of us, no?
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It's not the money, or the computers. Hell we carry 4 computers to set.
It's that depending on the room, sometimes you don't want to show the image to the world, sometimes you want to show the image to all the world.
Look . . . the previews in medium format are just awful. We have all put up with it, all worked around it, all talked about it, all tried various ways to improve it and at $20,000 it's hard to take that the preview is that bad, but at $40,000, no way can it be accepted and the excuses are getting as little thin.
There has to be another option rather than putting a blackout tent on location and running over every few frames to make sure you have the shot.
Also don't you find it a little silly that polaroid has been replaced by 500 lbs of comptuer, cart, generators and montiors?
Listen to those Red interviews. to a person every one of thos acclaimed directors and cinematographers mentions how great it is NOT to have a tech running around behind the camera or to be hooked to a wire.
When I shoot tethered it's a fight for the project not to get flat flooted. You can feel the wire, you can hear the comments and see all the buzz going to the computer rather than to the camera and the set.
I want the creative's involved, but sometimes I don't want everyone in the room making comments, because it is just an energy drain.
There should be options from Ipod type devices, all the way to huge plasma displays, but for 40 grand, there should be options.
It really isn't about the camera, we don't walk into the room because of the camera, we walk in the room to make the photograph.
The camera should be adaptable for any scenario and most importantly not get in the way.
I get a kick out of these conversations because everytime there is a new annoucement, HY6, Mamiya, Phase, Hasselblad, it's like the second coming, but when you boil it all down, you have to step back and say will this $40,000 make my photos better.
Graham, will an Hy6 make your photos better? Will it make you more money?
And if it will when you going to buy a few?
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208083\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm in total agreement with your point of view.
But these days design is driven by marketing strategies - not necessarily the 'dream camera' that we all hope will appear with the next upgrade.
They all give us just enough with every upgrade to (almost) justify putting our hands deeper into our pockets. They also know that in a commercial environment if we don't buy a new camera now and again.... we give the money to the tax man.
I think they could give you that screen right now.... but why should they play all the wild cards when we'll probably buy the product anyway?
For many commercial photographers $40000 is a big chunk of cash to find or finance. With the present economic climate I think the MF market is going to have to find much more tempting solutions and play those 'wild cards' to tempt us into investing.... might be a nice big clear screen on that full frame Phase after all.
And lets face it, the majority of commercial photography is done to fuel similar money extorting marketing strategies ....the irony of it.
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All of the makers suffer from a form of clairty. It's funny, medium format does a lot of things really well, but putting out real information is not one of them.
Real world use of cameras and backs has been boiled down to sound bites of megapixels and frame size which is somewhat of a shame because there is reasons to buy certain cameras, but rarely do those reasons get advertised or published.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208105\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
James,
This is where your dealer comes in.
Not that I want to start yet another discussion on this, because I'll be lambasted yet again but....
Earlier in this thread (or a similarly titled thread) someone mentioned the "fast, good or cheap" analogy. It seems that too many people want all three, knowing its not possible and then complain when they don't get it.
I'm not going to speak for other dealers here (although I suspect Lance will agree with me) but what everyone needs to do is find a dealer, hopefully a local one, that will take the time to answer questions, do a proper demo, provide a rental for testing and be there for support when you inevitably need it. All this does not come free, but in the long run gets you to the right decision.
I can't count the number of times I've gotten calls from owners of equipment they bought elsewhere (seems my price was a few dollars too high) in a panic because they can't figure something out or need software help, or have run into a hardware glitch in the middle of a shoot. Do I help? yes, do I do it multiple times? probably not.
If collecting facts figures, specs and test results from manufacturer sites and forums is a hobby for you, great. I wish I had the time. If you're a working pro and need straight answers and a support network (and you know very well that all working pros need one) then find that professional dealer and establish a relationship with them.
I'm probably preaching to the converted with you, but I had to get that off my chest.
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Gidday,
All ready talking to the Phase rep in New Zealand.
Hope I get a good trade in on my Aptus 75.
Simon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208037\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Simon, say hi to Dean and while at it, invite him to compare the Live View on your Aptus 75 to his offering.
Would love to hear your opinion after that.
Thanks
Yair
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............................
The entire stills market is imploding, and what is dropped into this cauldron are more and more really expensive pieces of hardware. These backs really are magnificent, and I'm sure there will be a small number of photographers using them in 2018, but its a dead end for most of us, no?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208108\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not wanting to regurgitate the obvious, but deep down I believe we are hitching a ride with dinosaurs. I strongly believe Hasselblad announcement of their (Kodak) 645 & Phase (Dalsa) 645 is last ditch effort to grab, as much back buyers before D3X & Canon's 1DsMk....announcement this fall of 20MP & ...? with better ISO, better DR. While we still begging for better LCD, that's the carrot on the stick.
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Not that I want to start yet another discussion on this, because I'll be lambasted yet again but....
.....I'm not going to speak for other dealers here (although I suspect Lance will agree with me) but what everyone needs to do is find a dealer, ........All this does not come free, but in the long run gets you to the right decision.....
I can't count the number of times I've gotten calls from owners of equipment they bought elsewhere (seems my price was a few dollars too high) in a panic because they can't figure something out or need software help, or have run into a hardware glitch in the middle of a shoot. Do I help? yes, do I do it multiple times? probably not.
If collecting facts figures, specs and test results from manufacturer sites and forums is a hobby for you, great. I wish I had the time. If you're a working pro and need straight answers and a support network (and you know very well that all working pros need one) then find that professional dealer and establish a relationship with them.
I'm probably preaching to the converted with you, but I had to get that off my chest.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208111\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In other words if I buy from you Mr. Behar all my problems of LCD, DR, high ISO & longer duration will magically disappear... WOW, where do I sign up.
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Is some of the future here already?
Made without cameras or lights.
http://code.google.com/creative/radiohead/ (http://code.google.com/creative/radiohead/)
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I cant imagine that would be the case. wake-up architecture is not a sensor dependent issue to my knowledge, but rather a back operation architecture. To have "instant on" you have to have the CCD on at all time and therefore require active cooling with a fan. Phase One's system was designed to keep the CCD cool without a fan.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208076\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Jordan,
You should know that Dalsa sensors don't need to "stay on" to avoid wake up architecture. It is just that they can go from OFF to ON very quickly with instant reset.
The new 50MP Kodak utilises a similar mechanism BTW.
The wake-up system is what it is...a wake up system to get the sensor flushed in ready in time for the next frame
Yair
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The point? I think the crescendo of disappointment that has appeared here in response to the Phase and Hasselblad announcements is not due to the fact that they have made premature announcements. It's over the fact that there is so little to be excited over in what thay have announced. I only wish that one of the MFDB makers would prematurely announce a new 3-4" LCD with the quality of the Nikon D3 or better.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208103\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
what "crescendo of disappointment" ?!
I'm very excited about the new backs and their new technology and FF size, just sad about the price!
hopefully the upgrade price won't be so painful - Phase have always rewarded their customers for brand loyalty, and fingers crossed they will keep that policy here. It would be crazy to expect people to upgrade at $18,000, something like $8-9,000 might just fly, otherwise a lot of people will be sticking with their P45's.
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James,
This is where your dealer comes in.
Not that I want to start yet another discussion on this, because I'll be lambasted yet again but....
Earlier in this thread (or a similarly titled thread) someone mentioned the "fast, good or cheap" analogy. It seems that too many people want all three, knowing its not possible and then complain when they don't get it.
I'm not going to speak for other dealers here (although I suspect Lance will agree with me) but what everyone needs to do is find a dealer, hopefully a local one, that will take the time to answer questions, do a proper demo, provide a rental for testing and be there for support when you inevitably need it. All this does not come free, but in the long run gets you to the right decision.
I can't count the number of times I've gotten calls from owners of equipment they bought elsewhere (seems my price was a few dollars too high) in a panic because they can't figure something out or need software help, or have run into a hardware glitch in the middle of a shoot. Do I help? yes, do I do it multiple times? probably not.
If collecting facts figures, specs and test results from manufacturer sites and forums is a hobby for you, great. I wish I had the time. If you're a working pro and need straight answers and a support network (and you know very well that all working pros need one) then find that professional dealer and establish a relationship with them.
I'm probably preaching to the converted with you, but I had to get that off my chest.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208111\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't think anyone is complaining about the dealers or any brand of back in particular. Lance and Doug at Capture Integration have been great. My local dealers are not so great, which is why I went with Lance. So I don't really understand your post.
The problem with a dealer network is that not all dealers are created equal.
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machine can not replace imagination and creativity IMHO.
a kind of look(say jim fiscus, platon etc.) is always easy to make, and sooner or later that wont be secrets to anybody. but the creativity is not. I can imagine one day the mfdb is even affordble to the photo amateurs, and 3ds max replaced the cars and architecture photographers, but nothing can replace imagination and creativity. so I think we better keep going further, what we should be able to do is not just take the picture.
I think the future is so bright we can't see it...even with shades on. I doubt seriously that professional photography has decades left in it. Like the dude in The Matrix said when the train was coming to run down Neo..."Hear that sound Mr Anderson? That's the sound of inevitability" No use planning for decades when you can hardly see to the next couple years. Technology is advancing so quickly that I feel we're will no longer be needed. CAD and the such will do us in.
The Machines will win this one...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208085\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Is some of the future here already?
Made without cameras or lights.
http://code.google.com/creative/radiohead/ (http://code.google.com/creative/radiohead/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208118\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It may be happening faster than we thought possible. Its moving forward exponentially.
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In other words if I buy from you Mr. Behar all my problems of LCD, DR, high ISO & longer duration will magically disappear... WOW, where do I sign up.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208117\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
SeanBk,
That is NOT what I said. I specifically quoted only part of Mr. Russel's post and replied to that only.
Obviously, we, as dealers cannot control what is manufactured. What we can do is give you as a potential client the insights into products that are quite often "hidden" in literature and user guides. We support you with technical knowledge, backup equipment and workflow suggestions that will help you get the most out of your digital back. All that directly translates into getting the job done more quickly and quite often, better.
Having a relationship with a reputable dealer means you get honest answers and ways to deal with some of the shortcomings that every piece of equipment has.
Whether you choose to deal with me, another dealer or no dealer at all, all I can assure you of is that you'll get exactly what you put into it.
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machine can not replace imagination and creativity IMHO.
a kind of look(say jim fiscus, platon etc.) is always easy to make, and sooner or later that wont be secrets to anybody. but the creativity is not. I can imagine one day the mfdb is even affordble to the photo amateurs, and 3ds max replaced the cars and architecture photographers, but nothing can replace imagination and creativity. so I think we better keep going further, what we should be able to do is not just take the picture.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208126\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree with you but people are running these machines, people who are really illustrators who are creative and have imagination. The promo's you have posted in the MFDB Recent Works thread are much like photoillustration, but instead of photographs layered together they could be CGI created pictoral elements. A designer could pluck people images from RF or penny stock, even animate it for motion with all the layers.
I don't think that high end still photography will disapear, there will just be less of it, and most will be for web consumption. In any case, the market will be much smaller than it is right now.
By the way, Platon's "look" is all lighting, as is Gill Greenberg's work. They both shoot film, scan, and adjust some in PS, but not much.
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I don't think anyone is complaining about the dealers or any brand of back in particular. Lance and Doug at Capture Integration have been great. My local dealers are not so great, which is why I went with Lance. So I don't really understand your post.
The problem with a dealer network is that not all dealers are created equal.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208124\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
TMARK,
The only point I was trying to make was that the information you and many others are trying to find is available. Its available through dealers such as Lance and myself. I consider it my responsibility to not only sell the right goods to my clients but also to make sure they have made an educated decision.
You're absolutely right, not all dealers are equal, but you as the consumer have the ability to force them to do the right thing by excercising your "wallet rights"
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Thanks TMark. About the recent works, I am just trying to do something interesting, and honestly those are my first attempt. I do that because my personal works are not enough for the portfolio, I just graduated from college for one year, and my major was physics, so I really need to work harder.
Image, illustration or photography, I don't care, I just need something to show the AD, I wish those will help.
here are some of my personal works, and really I would like to shoot this kind of thing all day, if this kind of work can feed me:)
http://dejablue.blogbus.com/logs/11794062.html (http://dejablue.blogbus.com/logs/11794062.html)
about platon I guess your right, plus the use of WA lenses. I mean technics, lightning, ps, whatever, is learnable, and though are easy to be down by machines. Maybe oneday photography is like cinema, you can find every technic in some kind of data sources.
sorry for my terrible English.
regards,
dustblue
I agree with you but people are running these machines, people who are really illustrators who are creative and have imagination. The promo's you have posted in the MFDB Recent Works thread are much like photoillustration, but instead of photographs layered together they could be CGI created pictoral elements. A designer could pluck people images from RF or penny stock, even animate it for motion with all the layers.
I don't think that high end still photography will disapear, there will just be less of it, and most will be for web consumption. In any case, the market will be much smaller than it is right now.
By the way, Platon's "look" is all lighting, as is Gill Greenberg's work. They both shoot film, scan, and adjust some in PS, but not much.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208131\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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i am amazed by the bitching that is going on here.....after reading (and complaining myself) for years about what the next back should and should not have, i think this one pretty much answers all questions...
full frame 645....check
12.5 stops DR....check
50-800....check
60mpix...yep
AND the best part: for all of us who don't WANT 60mpix AND want 1600....
it seems like we might get: 30mpix at 1fps (or aybe even faster) at 1600 AND ever higher DR....at full frame 645....that is insane...
i don't care if the thing has a 1,2,3,4,5 or 15 inch screen...you won't be able to judge it from that size....not possible.....
40000.-? thank all your friends who voted republican and did so again.....euro-dollar from 1:1 to 1:1.6 within a couple of years and that is not the end of it.....
either way i am not sure how this one can be topped anyway....for years these are the specs everybody in this forum has been screaming for...claiming to sign a check right NOW.....well, put your money where your mouth is......btw: it comes in contax mount....
i honestly don't see why i would ever need another back....no matter what anybody says...this one does 4x5 quality.....and it looks like it will do 35 speed and low noise AS AN OPTION!
so for 40000, i get to shoot 4x5 at 1fps for the rest of my life...all day long....not a bad deal at all....
my only problem with this announcement is that i guess i will never get to see this chip on the Hy6.....which means i will never get to use schneider with it....and i just don't wee where this leaves the Hy6 as a system.....and really this would be the system for this chip......
or leaf....i am not sure how that will work....dalsa working with phase on their flagship chip and leaving leaf....behind?
another note....i got flooded with emails from hasselblad and dealers with the H3D50 announcement....i have never owned a H hasselblad....
i have owned 2 phase backs and bought C1 to use with my canons.....nothing so far....
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i am amazed by the bitching that is going on here.....after reading (and complaining myself) for years about what the next back should and should not have, i think this one pretty much answers all questions...
full frame 645....check
12.5 stops DR....check
50-800....check
60mpix...yep
AND the best part: for all of us who don't WANT 60mpix AND want 1600....
it seems like we might get: 30mpix at 1fps (or aybe even faster) at 1600 AND ever higher DR....at full frame 645....that is insane...
i don't care if the thing has a 1,2,3,4,5 or 15 inch screen...you won't be able to judge it from that size....not possible.....
40000.-? thank all your friends who voted republican and did so again.....euro-dollar from 1:1 to 1:1.6 within a couple of years and that is not the end of it.....
either way i am not sure how this one can be topped anyway....for years these are the specs everybody in this forum has been screaming for...claiming to sign a check right NOW.....well, put your money where your mouth is......btw: it comes in contax mount....
i honestly don't see why i would ever need another back....no matter what anybody says...this one does 4x5 quality.....and it looks like it will do 35 speed and low noise AS AN OPTION!
so for 40000, i get to shoot 4x5 at 1fps for the rest of my life...all day long....not a bad deal at all....
my only problem with this announcement is that i guess i will never get to see this chip on the Hy6.....which means i will never get to use schneider with it....and i just don't wee where this leaves the Hy6 as a system.....and really this would be the system for this chip......
or leaf....i am not sure how that will work....dalsa working with phase on their flagship chip and leaving leaf....behind?
another note....i got flooded with emails from hasselblad and dealers with the H3D50 announcement....i have never owned a H hasselblad....
i have owned 2 phase backs and bought C1 to use with my canons.....nothing so far....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208161\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i agree completely. this is one very cool back, i wish i could afford it! at least i might be able to afford a refurb p45 now.
paul
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another note....i got flooded with emails from hasselblad and dealers with the H3D50 announcement....i have never owned a H hasselblad....
i have owned 2 phase backs and bought C1 to use with my canons.....nothing so far....
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=208161\")
Post your budget and your email address and I'm sure all of us dealers will be happy to flood you with announcements :-).
Kidding! ...sort of.
Doug Peterson
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer[/url]
Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)
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Is some of the future here already?
Made without cameras or lights.
http://code.google.com/creative/radiohead/ (http://code.google.com/creative/radiohead/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208118\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Amazing!
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Post your budget and your email address and I'm sure all of us dealers will be happy to flood you with announcements :-).
Kidding! ...sort of.
Doug Peterson
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer (http://www.captureintegration.com)
Personal Portfolio (http://www.doug-peterson.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208164\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
my website gives you my email, studio and cell phone and complete address.....
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Just an FYI we just went live with in-depth information on the new PhaseOne announcements. (thanks doug)
http://captureintegration.com/ (http://captureintegration.com/)
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
Direct: 305-534-5701 x1 | Cell: 305-394-3196
Toll Free: 877-217-9870
Capture Integration (http://www.captureintegration.com)
()
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i am amazed by the bitching that is going on here.....after reading (and complaining myself) for years about what the next back should and should not have, i think this one pretty much answers all questions...
full frame 645....check
12.5 stops DR....check
50-800....check
60mpix...yep
AND the best part: for all of us who don't WANT 60mpix AND want 1600....
it seems like we might get: 30mpix at 1fps (or aybe even faster) at 1600 AND ever higher DR....at full frame 645....that is insane...
If this pixel binning and ISO speed happen then this will be a great piece of gear
I've shot 60Mp stitches in the past and I think they have higher resolution than 5x4. I think that at this size, it will be hard for anyone to claim that the resolution is not better than 5x4.
The full frame aspect is an important one I think, because so many compromises have to be made for wide angle lenses. This buys one step in focal length (theoretically)
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Simon, say hi to Dean and while at it, invite him to compare the Live View on your Aptus 75 to his offering.
Would love to hear your opinion after that.
Thanks
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208112\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Yair,
Just read that it only can do one minute.
That has take a bit of the shine of it all ready.
Thanks
Simon
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Is this lens a new design from Mamiya?
I have heard that it is a Hartblei product but haven't heard whether it is a new design
or whether it is a rebranded version of their Super-Rotator 45mm that Michael reviewed
a few years back.
Since that review discussed a pricepoint of around $1K the new $3K+ would hopefully
involve some improvements
MT
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208107\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Certainly sounds like the Hartblei from the specs. The silence suggests it is as well.
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Thanks TMark. About the recent works, I am just trying to do something interesting, and honestly those are my first attempt. I do that because my personal works are not enough for the portfolio, I just graduated from college for one year, and my major was physics, so I really need to work harder.
Image, illustration or photography, I don't care, I just need something to show the AD, I wish those will help.
here are some of my personal works, and really I would like to shoot this kind of thing all day, if this kind of work can feed me:)
http://dejablue.blogbus.com/logs/11794062.html (http://dejablue.blogbus.com/logs/11794062.html)
about platon I guess your right, plus the use of WA lenses. I mean technics, lightning, ps, whatever, is learnable, and though are easy to be down by machines. Maybe oneday photography is like cinema, you can find every technic in some kind of data sources.
sorry for my terrible English.
regards,
dustblue
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208140\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Nice stuff dustblue. Keep it up.
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Is this lens a new design from Mamiya?
I have heard that it is a Hartblei product but haven't heard whether it is a new design
or whether it is a rebranded version of their Super-Rotator 45mm that Michael reviewed
a few years back.
Since that review discussed a pricepoint of around $1K the new $3K+ would hopefully
involve some improvements
MT
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208107\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I saw this lens at the Brisbane PMA Show in June. The importer (Bruce Pottinger, L+P Photographic) told me it's the Hartblei lens, re-badged. Don't know if it's an improved version but it sure looked like the one from MR's review.
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I saw this lens at the Brisbane PMA Show in June. The importer (Bruce Pottinger, L+P Photographic) told me it's the Hartblei lens, re-badged. Don't know if it's an improved version but it sure looked like the one from MR's review.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208203\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've heard it's the Hartblei mount with new internal elements made by Zeiss...
The two Hartblei 45's I tested were fine as long as you didn't shift them -- the minute you added more than about 3mm of shift, the corners started to degrade. So let's hope it's not just a rebadged Hartblei
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There are two T/S lenses coming from Phase, I've been told. One is a reengineered Hartblei and the other is a new Mamiya / Phase design.
Michael
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I've heard it's the Hartblei mount with new internal elements made by Zeiss...
The two Hartblei 45's I tested were fine as long as you didn't shift them -- the minute you added more than about 3mm of shift, the corners started to degrade. So let's hope it's not just a rebadged Hartblei
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208205\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Note the "Out of Stock" notice...
AFAIK most Hartbleis are based on old Zeiss calculations and some were made by Zeiss in Jena.
Yair
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Some lucky bastards will claim getting 5X7 quality
Eduardo
so for 40000, i get to shoot 4x5 at 1fps for the rest of my life...all day long....not a bad deal at all....
....nothing so far....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208161\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I saw this lens at the Brisbane PMA Show in June. The importer (Bruce Pottinger, L+P Photographic) told me it's the Hartblei lens, re-badged. Don't know if it's an improved version but it sure looked like the one from MR's review.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208203\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Nick
Yes I saw the same lens & talked to the Phase rep about it. From what I could understand it will be new version of this same lens reworked. The new Phase SW will also support this 45 T/s lens.
Thanks Denis
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With all my bitching about ROI and MFDB I missed the Phase refurb specials. $14,000 for the new camera, new 80mm lens and either a P30 or P25, gets an acceptable ROI. Still not as good a ROI as a Sony EX1, but good nonetheless.
This is where the new gear should be priced. If Phase were to market their new intro models at this price (which I suppose these "refurb" backs are), and market them to the Canon crowd, they could seize sales volume. All of the back makers should target Canon in this way. This would be transformative for the industry and might get us a good LCD and some of the other goodies within the feature set of the Rebel xsi.
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Just an FYI we just went live with in-depth information on the new PhaseOne announcements. (thanks doug)
http://captureintegration.com/ (http://captureintegration.com/)
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
Direct: 305-534-5701 x1 | Cell: 305-394-3196
Toll Free: 877-217-9870
Capture Integration (http://www.captureintegration.com)
()
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208187\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Lance,
From your website;
ISO
As with the P25+ and P45+, the P65+ will operate from ISO 50-800. Exclusive to the P65+ is the ability to upgrade in 2009 to higher and cleaner ISOs. Phase One’s continued cooperation with Dalsa will lead to this and other continued image quality advances.
How do you upgrade the ISO?
Is it hardware, software, firmware?
If it's not hardware, does this mean the other legacy backs can also "upgrade" the iso?
JR
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absolutely,
I just hope this happens sooner.
With all my bitching about ROI and MFDB I missed the Phase refurb specials. $14,000 for the new camera, new 80mm lens and either a P30 or P25, gets an acceptable ROI. Still not as good a ROI as a Sony EX1, but good nonetheless.
This is where the new gear should be priced. If Phase were to market their new intro models at this price (which I suppose these "refurb" backs are), and market them to the Canon crowd, they could seize sales volume. All of the back makers should target Canon in this way. This would be transformative for the industry and might get us a good LCD and some of the other goodies within the feature set of the Rebel xsi.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208271\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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my only problem with this announcement is that i guess i will never get to see this chip on the Hy6.....which means i will never get to use schneider with it....and i just don't wee where this leaves the Hy6 as a system.....and really this would be the system for this chip......
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208161\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, that sensor would be great on a Hy6 but let's wait and see what Sinar announces. A cheaper and lower resolution 645 size back would be even better, no? I'm dreaming of a 30MP 645 sensor which does 2fps and iso 1600
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Yes, that sensor would be great on a Hy6 but let's wait and see what Sinar announces. A cheaper and lower resolution 645 size back would be even better, no? I'm dreaming of a 30MP 645 sensor which does 2fps and iso 1600
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208303\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How about a 30MP 645 sensor with 1 frame every 4 seconds, super-clean ISO 800 and exposures of upto 1 hour, specially for us architecture guys? I don't even want an LCD screen! Should be much cheaper, no?
Cheers,
Kumar
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Yes, that sensor would be great on a Hy6 but let's wait and see what Sinar announces. A cheaper and lower resolution 645 size back would be even better, no? I'm dreaming of a 30MP 645 sensor which does 2fps and iso 1600
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208303\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Exactly!
Go Graham!
N.B Love the Hy6 BTW!
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This stuff really needs to step into the future.
Turn it over to 20th Century Fox and Bruckheimer.
Let's get infinate resoltuion machines that allow you to take a 7-11 video grab from a $12 camera and read the fine detail of the perps face on a 48" monitor.
Better yet, let's get past all of this 2d stuff and get to real 3d
(http://www.wetanz.com/images/rightcolumn/manmelter_118w.jpg)
Forget about wi-fi'ing a Jpeg to your client, heck, let's just beem the models straight to the magazine.
A device like this would be well worth the 50k it takes to shoot medium format and have multiple uses.
You know, those pesky account executives that say things like, "the client wants a blue background" . . . whack . . . beam them off the set to . . . well you get the idea.
That'll quiet the set down.
Also think about the traffic on La Cienega when your trying to get to location. Pull out your manmelter and zip, road clear, or when the spouse says you spend too much time on the computer?
Come on, Leaf, Phase, Sinar and Imablad.
Give Hollywood a call and while your on it, let's get some renaming of the products.
What's a P21 have to do with 18 mpx, or a P65+ to 60? A 54S? Really.
Let's put some real names on these things (see manmelter for example).
Let's have some gizmos that really wow the clients. Think about it, pulling out a manmelter will draw some attention, especially if you do one of those Klinko harnesses so you can work hands free.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2265/1523919507_b8136362c2.jpg)
We're waiting for inspiration.
JR
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=207672\")
you could use the extra resolution to do plenoptics, which would get you close to that 3D camera you want. it'll allow you to change focus, depth of field, and perspective in post.
[a href=\"http://graphics.stanford.edu/papers/lfcamera/lfcamera-150dpi.pdf]http://graphics.stanford.edu/papers/lfcame...mera-150dpi.pdf[/url]
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meanwhile on the P65+ thread...
WHAT are the upgrade prices?
seems to be a deafening silence on this so far...
anyone?
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meanwhile on the P65+ thread...
WHAT are the upgrade prices?
seems to be a deafening silence on this so far...
anyone?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208339\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Phase One has informed dealers that upgrade pricing should be set within the next week.
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Phase One has informed dealers that upgrade pricing should be set within the next week.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208340\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Do you recall what the upgrade pricing was from P45 to P45+?
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Do you recall what the upgrade pricing was from P45 to P45+?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=208341\")
Currently the upgrade price for a P45 to a P45+ is $7,990.00 to go from a Classic (1 yr) warranty to a Classic (1 yr) warranty. If the P45 has a Value Added warranty (3 yr) it is $9,490.00.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year[/url]
877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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meanwhile on the P65+ thread...
WHAT are the upgrade prices?
seems to be a deafening silence on this so far...
anyone?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208339\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
$1,000,000
(http://russellrutherfordgroup.com/Dr_Evil.jpg)
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$1,000,000
Priceless!!
I do like your sense of humour.
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Do you recall what the upgrade pricing was from P45 to P45+?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=208341\")
Howard there was an early adopter program for first six months after the announcements of the P to P+ upgrades that was $5990 then after that they were adjusted the prices that Chris has mentioned in his post.
Remember that with this upgrade it was all hardware, you got a brand new back and the warranty starts at day one of whatever warranty you had. One more important thing, no down time, these units are swapped out. No need to send in and wait weeks for your upgrade.
I suspect Phase One to do this as well with this round of upgrades.
Also Phase One said we should have the upgrade numbers this week.
Howard I will also check to see if there is a competitive upgrade from an H3D if you would like .
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
Direct: 305-534-5701 x1 | Cell: 305-394-3196
Toll Free: 877-217-9870
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration [/url]
()
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if P45+ > P65+ is same as the new price difference (~$15-18,000) then Phase have lost my goodwill and custom.
if its in the region of the last upgrade ($6000 early adopters, $9000 later) then I'll huff and puff but probably do it.
Loyal customers deserve looking after
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Howard there was an early adopter program for first six months
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208356\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I love the way you guys name this stuff.
Early adopter program?
Sounds like I'm buying laminate flooring.
Why don't you guys just do the right thing, not ship the equipment until it's ready (including the iso "upgrade) and stick to a price?
JR
P.S. What is an ISO upgrade? Is it like the Hasselblad one that took two years and only works in their software?
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James R,
Just got the current issue of the "Studio Photography" magazine. On the back cover is an ad that you shot for Phase One's software. Nice image - me like it.
Sean
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Howard there was an early adopter program for first six months after the announcements of the P to P+ upgrades that was $5990 then after that they were adjusted the prices that Chris has mentioned in his post.
Remember that with this upgrade it was all hardware, you got a brand new back and the warranty starts at day one of whatever warranty you had. One more important thing, no down time, these units are swapped out. No need to send in and wait weeks for your upgrade.
I suspect Phase One to do this as well with this round of upgrades.
Also Phase One said we should have the upgrade numbers this week.
Howard I will also check to see if there is a competitive upgrade from an H3D if you would like .
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
Direct: 305-534-5701 x1 | Cell: 305-394-3196
Toll Free: 877-217-9870
Capture Integration (http://www.captureintegration.com)
()
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208356\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Lance:
I am available at the right price, but first Phase has to do something about the LCD. [G] And when they do, Capture Integration would be the only place I would go. You guys do a great job with Phase. Just like PPR with Hasselblad.
Best.
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James R,
Just got the current issue of the "Studio Photography" magazine. On the back cover is an ad that you shot for Phase One's software. Nice image - me like it.
Sean
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208366\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thank you.
JR
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Why don't you guys just do the right thing, not ship the equipment until it's ready (including the iso "upgrade) and stick to a price?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208364\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In any market driven economy, you sell what a customer wants... And if you have customers wanting to throw money at you for a product that isn't ready to ship, you let them And if you want to "do the right thing," you reward them by offering them a slightly lower "early adopter" price...
What I find interesting is the only people who seem to have an issue with that are the folks that want an even lower price and/or don't want to pay in advance for the privilege of being the first to get it. Invariably these are the same folks that cry foul when the vendor fulfills it's early adopter obligations and raises prices... And any vendor that has the biggest and best of anything is always going to be the one driving the upper end of the pricing scale.
Cheers,
-
In any market driven economy, you sell what a customer wants... And if you have customers wanting to throw money at you for a product that isn't ready to ship, you let them And if you want to "do the right thing," you reward them by offering them a slightly lower "early adopter" price...
What I find interesting is the only people who seem to have an issue with that are the folks that want an even lower price and/or don't want to pay in advance for the privilege of being the first to get it. Invariably these are the same folks that cry foul when the vendor fulfills it's early adopter obligations and raises prices... And any vendor that has the biggest and best of anything is always going to be the one driving the upper end of the pricing scale.
Cheers,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208370\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I can only equate to how I do business and honestly I don't sell on the fact it's less if you buy early, with the promise I will make it good later.
Sure my prices move, usually depending on the project, the budget, the bottom line, my schedule and the economy, but the delivery is all the same, as promised and on time.
I also know that the entry price for all luxury goods is higher early on and at 60mpx, that is what this camera is . . . a luxury product.
Still, nobody's crying "foul" it's just seems like a less than professional way to present a product when I start hearing quotes like "early adopter".
I still think the photography/camera business is really gotten goofy with digital and I find a lot of it not that pleasent.
Buying in as an Early Adopter in the digital world usually means paing to be a beta tester and I don't know what your business model is, but I'm not hired to test equipment.
I also know all the medium format companies have to make a profit and to do this have to introduce new product.
I'm good with that and that's not new in the world of commerce, but since most photographers are only as good as our last job, it's damn hard to walk out with a beta test camera and take a chance.
Now, the flip side is Phase usually ships reliable equipment, though they haven't hit all of their own deadlines in the past, so as far as this camera goes, until the high iso upgrade is a reality I'll personally hold off.
If I shot landscapes and 60 billion pixels (or is that million, I get confused) is more important to me than the iso then maybe I'd feel different, though I would really like some word on what the lcd looks like.
JR
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I can only equate to how I do business and honestly I don't sell on the fact it's less if you buy early, with the promise I will make it good later.
Sure my prices move, usually depending on the project, the budget, the bottom line, my schedule and the economy, but the delivery is all the same, as promised and on time.
I also know that the entry price for all luxury goods is higher early on and at 60mpx, that is what this camera is . . . a luxury product.
Still, nobody's crying "foul" it's just seems like a less than professional way to present a product when I start hearing quotes like "early adopter".
I still think the photography/camera business is really gotten goofy with digital and I find a lot of it not that pleasent.
Buying in as an Early Adopter in the digital world usually means paing to be a beta tester and I don't know what your business model is, but I'm not hired to test equipment.
I also know all the medium format companies have to make a profit and to do this have to introduce new product.
I'm good with that and that's not new in the world of commerce, but since most photographers are only as good as our last job, it's damn hard to walk out with a beta test camera and take a chance.
Now, the flip side is Phase usually ships reliable equipment, though they haven't hit all of their own deadlines in the past, so as far as this camera goes, until the high iso upgrade is a reality I'll personally hold off.
If I shot landscapes and 60 billion pixels (or is that million, I get confused) is more important to me than the iso then maybe I'd feel different, though I would really like some word on what the lcd looks like.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208377\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I shot yesterday with a P45 b/c my P30 has died pretty much, and I would not even want a P45 if they gave it to me for the same price...(jk) but really. It ate up my Hard drives so fast it was amazing.
Also I noticed that the images would a lot less sharp than my P30.. is that possible?
I also noticed yesterday that by Adaptor for my P30 to RZIIPD has a little tiny space between it and the camera...
Doesn't it effect the image if that is even slightly off? I noticed if I pushed a little the space was smaller.
Wouldn't that effect if the image is in focus or not? sorry for the maybe stupid questions, but Seems that with digital those mm's might effect the sharpness of an image or no?
That P65+ has to be for people shooting cars are products where they take very little shots.
With the P45 and about 50 somehting shots the folder was already 9 gigs!
No thanks I stick with my P30...:+}
Snook
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Buying in as an Early Adopter in the digital world usually means paing to be a beta tester and I don't know what your business model is, but I'm not hired to test equipment.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208377\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Then don't! Nobody is forcing you. Let others who are willing to do so go ahead of you. You have the option to wait until it is a perfectly functioning product before you enter, but of course you may pay a bit more by doing so.
My point is you seem to be blaming a company for a business practice that its customers want. Sure, you can disagree with the folks participating, but it's not a company's fault they're offering a service that fills a demand...
,
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Also I noticed that the images would a lot less sharp than my P30.. is that possible?
It is if the new back isn't aligned properly with your body.
Doesn't it effect the image if that is even slightly off? I noticed if I pushed a little the space was smaller.
Wouldn't that effect if the image is in focus or not? sorry for the maybe stupid questions, but Seems that with digital those mm's might effect the sharpness of an image or no?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208385\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yep, and probably why you have the sharpness issue...
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Then don't! Nobody is forcing you. Let others who are willing to do so go ahead of you. You have the option to wait until it is a perfectly functioning product before you enter, but of course you may pay a bit more by doing so.
My point is you seem to be blaming a company for a business practice that its customers want. Sure, you can disagree with the folks participating, but it's not a company's fault they're offering a service that fills a demand...
,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208388\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Whoa. There's no blame.
Don't take what I write that seriously . . . I don't.
But as far as the paying more part, naw, that's not usually the rule, not when you factor in time.
Anyway, are you buying?
JR
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Anyway, are you buying?
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208392\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Nope, at least not initially. (I'm still feeling the financial pain from my last back purchase!)
,
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It is if the new back isn't aligned properly with your body.
Yep, and probably why you have the sharpness issue...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208390\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Jack any suggestions?
Sorry but where I live there is no option sending body and back off.
And the Local Phase dealer does nothing like that.
Is there any home made options..:+}
Also it seem like the Images had like slight image shake.. like when I do jumping stuff and the flash I have does not have short duration the images especially the eye look blurred slightly.
But I was shooting completely still portrait shots. even when they were in focus they some how looked stranger less in focus than my P30.. maybe it was maxing out the lens or something?
Any case I'd appreciate any suggestions on the shimming..:+]
Snokk
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Jack any suggestions?
Sorry but where I live there is no option sending body and back off.
And the Local Phase dealer does nothing like that.
Is there any home made options..:+}
Also it seem like the Images had like slight image shake.. like when I do jumping stuff and the flash I have does not have short duration the images especially the eye look blurred slightly.
But I was shooting completely still portrait shots. even when they were in focus they some how looked stranger less in focus than my P30.. maybe it was maxing out the lens or something?
Any case I'd appreciate any suggestions on the shimming..:+]
Snokk
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208402\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
(http://www.80stees.com/images/products/Thor_Hammer_Costume.jpg)*
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Snook,
What lens and by any chance are you shooting with the camera in the portrait position? I get this same effect you are describing where the images seem shaken. It's like the camera was bumped up. Everything will have a slight shadow above the real subject.
I tend to get it the most with the 35mm, on tripod, at slower shutter speeds even with the remote release. It always seems to be with the camera in the portrait position.
Paul C
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To the following comments, let me say that there is almost no cost reduction associated with makiing a sensor of the same size but lower pixel count; higher frame rates and lower storage needs are the only demonstrated advantage of having fewer, bigger pixels on the same sized sensor. If higher pixel counts in the same format command higher prices, this is evidence of market demand: the greater desirability of the higher resolution for at least some customers.
In fact if anything, designing and tooling up to make two sensors of the same size instead of a single one will increase costs.
Combining this with the fact that the feared IQ disadvantage of having more, smaller pixels on the same size of sensor can be mostly eliminated by binning, downsampling, or even just the dithering effect of printing at the same size and so at higher PPI, and there is very little downside to increasing pixel counts except memory needs and frame rates.
Which is why every sensor maker keeps reducing pixel size in every format, even if the higher pixel counts offer little gain in IQ for many customers.
I have only seen one demonstrated image related advantage of fewer, bigger photosites: higher frame rates within given limits on processing power. The Nikon D1H, D2H, D3 and the Canon 1D models and 5D all fit this model. In the case of the 5D, achieving even its modest 3fps limited it to about 13MP as it shares a processor with the 20D and 30D, and that processor is capable of only about 40 MP per second.
A cheaper and lower resolution 645 size back ...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208303\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How about a 30MP 645 sensor with 1 frame every 4 seconds, super-clean ISO 800 and exposures of up to 1 hour, specially for us architecture guys? I don't even want an LCD screen! Should be much cheaper, no?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208304\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Jack any suggestions?
Sorry but where I live there is no option sending body and back off.
And the Local Phase dealer does nothing like that.
Is there any home made options..:+}
Also it seem like the Images had like slight image shake.. like when I do jumping stuff and the flash I have does not have short duration the images especially the eye look blurred slightly.
But I was shooting completely still portrait shots. even when they were in focus they some how looked stranger less in focus than my P30.. maybe it was maxing out the lens or something?
Any case I'd appreciate any suggestions on the shimming..:+]
Snokk
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=208402\")
What was the focal length and shutter speed that you were using? We have found that sometimes when people have been using these high resolution sensors the shutter speed comes into play quite a bit. Our rule of thumb is that you use twice your focal length.
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
Direct: 305-534-5701 x1 | Cell: 305-394-3196
Toll Free: 877-217-9870
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration [/url]
()
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Snook,
What lens and by any chance are you shooting with the camera in the portrait position? I get this same effect you are describing where the images seem shaken. It's like the camera was bumped up. Everything will have a slight shadow above the real subject.
I tend to get it the most with the 35mm, on tripod, at slower shutter speeds even with the remote release. It always seems to be with the camera in the portrait position.
Paul C
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208409\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hey Paul... Haven't noticed if it happens in both but I am sure it does..
This was mostly with the P45 they lent me. But I had the same thing happens a lot with my Canons and the Profoto acutes..I think it was the Flash as the Duration stinks on the smaller line of Profoto packs.
Also when I sharpen the basic setting in C-1 setting there would show up like little jaggies real quick. I will have to put some Contrast Sharpening on all the images to make them appear sharper......
I have another big shoot friday with the P45 again and will try some landscape positions to check.
I was using either the 65mm or the 180mm both had the same effect.
Tripod of course, and was shooting 250th at F11 more or less. Profoto 7a 2400.
James I did not get the Thor post...?
Sorry I had a look again and I get it, I think.. Brute Force? :+}
Let me try and upload a 100 crop......
Snook
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Jack any suggestions?
Sorry but where I live there is no option sending body and back off.
And the Local Phase dealer does nothing like that.
Is there any home made options..:+}
Also it seem like the Images had like slight image shake.. like when I do jumping stuff and the flash I have does not have short duration the images especially the eye look blurred slightly.
But I was shooting completely still portrait shots. even when they were in focus they some how looked stranger less in focus than my P30.. maybe it was maxing out the lens or something?
Any case I'd appreciate any suggestions on the shimming..:+]
Snokk
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208402\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think you want the back pressed tighter to the body, not shimmed away from it, so for temporary, maybe some Gaffer tape to hold it tighter to the body? At least worth a test...
On the double image -- this is really interesting to hear... Just yesterday I had another P45 user ask me to look at some of his files that exhibit that same trait, but only when he shoots in the vertical or portrait orientation(!) He is sending me a DVD full of samples and as soon as I see those, I'll comment back here.
I am suspecting it is a loose back issue allowing a slight vibration during capture -- and we know mirror slap on the RZ is pretty significant A slightly loose back might explain why some people who have posted are complaining about "blurry" P45 images on Mamiya AFD when others of us using the same gear don't have the issue...
Cheers,
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Snook,
What lens and by any chance are you shooting with the camera in the portrait position? I get this same effect you are describing where the images seem shaken. It's like the camera was bumped up. Everything will have a slight shadow above the real subject.
I tend to get it the most with the 35mm, on tripod, at slower shutter speeds even with the remote release. It always seems to be with the camera in the portrait position.
Paul C
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208409\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Paul:
Is the back fitting snug to the body or is there possibly a little bit of "slop" or "wiggle" ?
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Whoa. There's no blame.
Don't take what I write that seriously . . . I don't.
But as far as the paying more part, naw, that's not usually the rule, not when you factor in time.
Anyway, are you buying?
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208392\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hey James,
You're like a breath of fresh air in this crazy world of MFDB photography. Man you make me laugh, keep it coming! A perfect antidote to all this pixel peeping.
Quite honestly I think the price of all this new gear is putting more people off MF digital than encouraging them to start. When you pay a high price for a back one month and the very next it's on a promotion with a camera attached and for a much lower price doesn't encourage one to dip one's toe in the water does it ? Once again I ask why all the older backs are not sold cheaply to get people started and hooked into MF digital. You rarely see them advertised anywhere.
The way things are going the prices of this gear will rise even higher as the numbers sold get even lower. A very dangerous game to play in my opinion.
My two cents,
Pete
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Nope, at least not initially. (I'm still feeling the financial pain from my last back purchase!)
,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208395\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Maybe I should start taking bets on how soon you (and Guy) succumb.
Cheers,
Kumar
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Hello Jack,
The back is tight, I went back and checked it. I can't move it with the camera in either landscape or portrait orientation.
I found an interesting series:
I took 3 in the horizontal orientation, all is fine. With the lens still in the same focus settng and set to manual, I rotated it, (with a Kirk L bracket) and I see the strange jumping of the solid objects, rocks. I am wondering if the camera has some inheritent instability in the vertical mode?
Thanks
Paul
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I posted in May I'd heard it was going to be 70mp, more interestingly that it could also be shot at half the pixel count, for speed and maybe noise. That would be an interesting feature if it turns out to be true.
Kevin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207262\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Bugger I should of done the lottery.
Kevin.
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With the lens still in the same focus settng and set to manual, I rotated it, (with a Kirk L bracket) and I see the strange jumping of the solid objects, rocks.
(thinking the l-bracket might not be rigid enough in vert mode ...),
try leaving the cam/bracket in a horizontal position and adjust
the head to vert orientation, instead, (... if the head supports
such an adjustment).
I am wondering if the camera has some inheritent instability in the vertical mode?
if the above doesn't address the vibration issue, engage the
the mirror lock up (... if available).
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Hello Jack,
The back is tight, I went back and checked it. I can't move it with the camera in either landscape or portrait orientation.
I found an interesting series:
I took 3 in the horizontal orientation, all is fine. With the lens still in the same focus settng and set to manual, I rotated it, (with a Kirk L bracket) and I see the strange jumping of the solid objects, rocks. I am wondering if the camera has some inheritent instability in the vertical mode?
Thanks
Paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208443\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Are you using mirror lock up? (Maybe mirror damping is better in horizontal?)
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Maybe I should start taking bets on how soon you (and Guy) succumb.
Cheers,
Kumar
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208440\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Smart money will be on Guy jumping LONG before me
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I'm very happy with my little piece of crap 22mpx P25 Plus against you big boys. Not to say someone knocks on my door and offers me a P45 plus for 15 k than all bets are off.
Seriously I am really happy with this back , sure maybe more is better overall but I love the files so far. The big deal to me is i am in MF land and anywhere you step is a major improvement and if you need the new P65 than you need the P65 . I welcome this with open arms, technology from this will just filter down into other backs and improvements will be made be it tomorrow or a year from now we want these companies to grow and improve and frankly whining this don't fit your needs is crap. So what it may fit someone's else's needs better. If anyone owns a Nikon are the camera's specifically being made for you. No there are more bells and whistles to fit everyones needs and what you don't want just turn off in the menu. I use maybe 30 percent of that camera but we can't expect a small industry like the MF world to completely make something specific to our needs. I think some of us are a little unrealistic of what can be made for the MF backs.
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Smart money will be on Guy jumping LONG before me
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208454\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hell who has any money left to bet. LOL
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Jack,
Yes, mirror lock up was used, before each shot.
The Kirk L bracket is definately not loose or allowing the camera to move. It's very snug. I am going back over the tripod to see if the head is slipping when vertical?
Paul
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hi TMARK,
I doubt it is up to me to tell who owes Mamiya. I guess the information can be found easily in Tokyo, where anybody can ask detailled information about any company, for a little fee.
Best regards,
Thierry
One question: who really owns Mamiya? Is it really Cosmos? I've heard it was not Cosmos, but rather some other more interesting player. Anyone? Thierry?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207688\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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hi TMARK,
I doubt it is up to me to tell who owes Mamiya. I guess the information can be found easily in Tokyo, where anybody can ask detailled information about any company, for a little fee.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208498\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry,
Your right, because the owner of all the world's camera companies is Yair, (yaya to this group). Yair is actually, Shari Arison the richest person in Israel. (Yes Yair is a woman).
(http://images.forbes.com/media/lists/81/2006/QSGK.jpg)
He/She uses the title of Leaf European Representative just to throw us off.
He/She is actually posting from his/her private ship, (the Carnival Princess) in the Mediterranean and every time He/She posts they have to task a satellite to the ship.
Just thought you guys would like to know.
So Theirry good answer because Yair is your boss. Actually Yair is the boss of all of us.
So let's watch out dissing Leaf . . . OK?
JR
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Thierry,
Your right, because the owner of all the world's camera companies is Yair, (yaya to this group). Yair is actually, Shari Arison the richest person in Israel. (Yes Yair is a woman).
i always felt it somehow.
damn.
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The Dalsa sensors for stills cameras are made in The Netherlands, also known as Holland. Very much Europe.
EPd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208512\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sorry but your information is about 6 years out of date. Philips used to own this technology but it was acquired by Dalsa, which is located in Kitchener, Ontario. The fabrication plant is in Quebec.
Michael
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Yes, there's an ongoing relationship, but Dalsa is a Canadian company headquartered in Canada, not that it really matters one way or the other.
Michael
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hi TMARK,
I doubt it is up to me to tell who owes Mamiya. I guess the information can be found easily in Tokyo, where anybody can ask detailled information about any company, for a little fee.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208498\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, I did a little snooping. OK, much snooping. Without paying for reports, from what I can tell, Cosmos is part of Tokyo Cosmos Electric Co. Cosmos may have an IT arm, but they are mainly a manufacturer of integrated circuits for, among other things, camera systems. The Kieretsu to which Cosmos belongs is the one with Mitsubishi at its head, which includes, among other companies, Nikon. Cosmos Scientific, the company that purchased Mamiya, does not appear to be a publicly traded company. To cut to the chase, I think Nikon is behind Mamiya, but in a very Japanese conglomerate kind of way.
I may be completely wrong. Can anyone comment?
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Thierry,
Your right, because the owner of all the world's camera companies is Yair, (yaya to this group). Yair is actually, Shari Arison the richest person in Israel. (Yes Yair is a woman).
(http://images.forbes.com/media/lists/81/2006/QSGK.jpg)
He/She uses the title of Leaf European Representative just to throw us off.
He/She is actually posting from his/her private ship, (the Carnival Princess) in the Mediterranean and every time He/She posts they have to task a satellite to the ship.
Just thought you guys would like to know.
So Theirry good answer because Yair is your boss. Actually Yair is the boss of all of us.
So let's watch out dissing Leaf . . . OK?
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208507\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's a fig leaf...
Kumar
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Yes, James, that's the reason why I don't dare to tell the truth. With such a boss it can turn out to be dangerous to speak.
Thierry
Thierry,
Your right, because the owner of all the world's camera companies is Yair, (yaya to this group). Yair is actually, Shari Arison the richest person in Israel. (Yes Yair is a woman).
(http://images.forbes.com/media/lists/81/2006/QSGK.jpg)
He/She uses the title of Leaf European Representative just to throw us off.
He/She is actually posting from his/her private ship, (the Carnival Princess) in the Mediterranean and every time He/She posts they have to task a satellite to the ship.
Just thought you guys would like to know.
So Theirry good answer because Yair is your boss. Actually Yair is the boss of all of us.
So let's watch out dissing Leaf . . . OK?
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208507\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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http://www.srphotography.co.uk/srphotograp...hread.php?t=735 (http://www.srphotography.co.uk/srphotography-forum/showthread.php?t=735)
Uhmm well, even in Europe Sinar is not known for its bright marketing skills (to put it mildly). Their products are their best promotion (which is in itself a very good thing). Since Jenoptik took over they installed a new general manager that formerly worked at Jenoptik headquarters. Since then I have already seen some movement that was not old-school Sinar. Hopefully that is good too. Still, the Klinko-Indrani contract seems a typical misunderstanding of what the US market place needs, IMHO.
Does everyone realize this press release is one year old,
and the part about use of the Hy6 and Sinarbacks never came to fruition?
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any word on those upgrade price yet?
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any word on those upgrade price yet?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209127\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I just got upgrade pricing on the p65+ from digital transitions. Excuse the post if this has already been discussed.
Yikes and and I was told the LCD is no better than the p45+ LCD (deal breaker for me)
p45 -> p65+ / 20,990
p45+ -> p65+ / 15,990
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I just got upgrade pricing on the p65+ from digital transitions. Excuse the post if this has already been discussed.
Yikes and and I was told the LCD is no better than the p45+ LCD (deal breaker for me)
p45 -> p65+ / 20,990
p45+ -> p65+ / 15,990
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=209958\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
significantly higher than I hoped.
it seems Phase are not rewarding US customers for their loyalty, and have decided to upgrade the P45+'s bought at $ prices to match euro prices today. They should have done an early adopters price of under $10,000 for a couple of months to get it rolling, but I cant see so many people upgrading at this level (or is that what they want?)
be interesting to hear what the prices are to upgrade in Euro-zone or UK - anyone?
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I just got upgrade pricing on the p65+ from digital transitions. Excuse the post if this has already been discussed.
Yikes and and I was told the LCD is no better than the p45+ LCD (deal breaker for me)
p45 -> p65+ / 20,990
p45+ -> p65+ / 15,990
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=209958\")
Don't forget that those are both for 1 year warranty upgrades. Here is a full list of upgrades for the P45 / P45+ to the P65+. These are Phase One's suggested prices, so I would suggest getting an estimate from the dealer that you work with to see what kind of deal they can make for you.
P45+ 1 Year Classic Warranty Upgrade to P65+ $15,990.00
P45+ 3 Year Value Added Warranty Upgrade to P65+ $17,490.00
P45 1 Year Classic Warranty Upgrade to P65+ $20,990.00
P45 3 Year Value Added Warranty Upgrade to P65+ $22,490.00
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year[/url]
877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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even if your dealer gives you, oh 20% off, its still far too high.
Phase have took a real hit in my opinion for playing it this way. They always promoted themselves as giving favorable upgrade terms to look after their loyal customers, but - it seems no more.
agreed that if you already own a P45 or P45+, then the money can be better spent, especially in this climate.
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The current situation where us dollar is weak compared to euro punishes both the european companies and US customers. I have no idea what's the price of the new sensor but if it's something like 5000,-euro (8000,-$) then it's no wonder that the new back costs what it costs. P1 needs to adjust their prices to the european level anyway because if the us dollar continues to weaken then european companies start losing money with every product they sell in to US. Seems like a pretty critical situation at the moment.
Cheers,
J
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In an upgrade situation they get a P45/P45+ back in exchange, which is worth quite a bit to them, and can be sold for a good sum. in the US P45+'s seem to be holding at ~23k, secondhand. To expect someone to add $17.5k onto that is asking full list price, which is zero discount to loyal customers.
Its pitched far too high - they can't punish old US Phase owners for buying into their company many years ago with astronomical upgrade prices. If European prices are (as a previous poster stated): old P45+ price = new P65+ price, then an upgrade should cost what it did to go from a P25 to P45 (same scenario - new chip, new electronics, but same screen/package) allowing for inflation, maybe this should be $8 or $9k, but $17,500 is off the chart. People who bought a P45/P45+ in the US when the $:Euro was at a better rate did well, but that's their good fortune, not for Phase to claw back now, which quite frankly it seems they are trying to do here.
agree with above - they badly need to do an early adopters program to get it rolling, many people are going to balk in the US at this level. I am fortunate enough to be able to access these funds, but would rather buy an Alpa Max or Cambo and pay $10k off my mortgage than this. which is probably what I will do!
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My initial reaction to the Hasselblad price of around $22K to upgrade from an H3D-39 to the H3DII-50 was that it was way over the top and did nothing to reward Hasselblad owners that they could not do for themselves by selling their H3D on e-bay. I still feel that way, but it now appears that Phase is doing just as little for its customers. The upgrade price for the P45 to the P65+ is close to $22K. However, at least Hasselblad is throwing in a brand new H series camera for the $22K. Phase is just upgrading the back.
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I agree that it is a large delta for even a P45+ owner to make the jump. Too big for me for sure, but clearly there is the wealthier segment of digital imaging pros that will no doubt be early adopters -------- Prolly more than one or two from this very site...
,
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My initial reaction to the Hasselblad price of around $22K to upgrade from an H3D-39 to the H3DII-50 was that it was way over the top and did nothing to reward Hasselblad owners that they could not do for themselves by selling their H3D on e-bay. I still feel that way, but it now appears that Phase is doing just as little for its customers. The upgrade price for the P45 to the P65+ is close to $22K. However, at least Hasselblad is throwing in a brand new H series camera for the $22K. Phase is just upgrading the back.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210015\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
All of this information comes out in little dribbles. Probably to gauge reaction and then modify the numbers from there. As my Dad always said, no harm in asking.
JR
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I believe we have become victims of the weak dollar with all the new pricing and upgrade incremental cost.
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I think with these upgrade numbers the market for MFDB will only become smaller. I noticed someone mentioning the P65+ will only be bought by wealthy amateurs. It seems that will become the case.
I cannot commercially justify the upgrade price towards the Hasselblad 50 (taking into consideration there also would be a CFII50). I would towards the MS versions but just the added pixels and sensor size?
Maybe James is right, you can always ask. This does implicate there is no sound reasoning to set those prices other than how much clients are willing to put up with... euhh.... down I meant
The biggest compition for the 50/60MP backs probably will be their own 40MP backs, the manufacturers have just eliminated the 2nd hand market for 40MP's with their discounts on the 30/28MP backs and the upgrade path towards 50/60MP is less than favourable so it seems.
I predict many 40MP back owners will hold on to their backs. I wonder how many new-comers there will be.
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With prices like these, I can see the major 35mm manufacturers wetting their lips in anticipation of an increased market share coming their way as they up their own pixel counts. I was initially enthusiastic about the P65+ but reality hit home after speaking to a few pro photographer friends, one doing high end work for major UK entities, who simply laughed at the idea they would pay that kind of money for a back. Phase have to sell to more than a group of wealthy dilettantes to survive.
Quentin
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They might sell more 45+ backs, because of their 65+ prices. They look rather affordable in comparison!
I know some wedding photographers who never sell their most expensive package and as soon as they would, they´d think of a more expensive, über-luxurious package. Just to show people they made a rational choice by not getting the most expensive one...
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With prices like these, I can see the major 35mm manufacturers wetting their lips in anticipation of an increased market share coming their way as they up their own pixel counts.
Quentin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210122\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Except that I think that Canon are at, or near, the top of their game with 21Mp on a 35mm sized chip. Light gathering, dynamic range, shadow detail etc..are all very much in play now.
Secondly, I think that these are two very different markets at the business end. There is very little overlap. No Pro who *needs* 35mm sized cameras (sports, press, wedding(?) etc..) wants to lug around a MFDB. Similarly, anyone working for an ad agency expecting MFDB has to have the right gear.
My tuppence worth.....
D.
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Except that I think that Canon are at, or near, the top of their game with 21Mp on a 35mm sized chip. Light gathering, dynamic range, shadow detail etc..are all very much in play now.
My tuppence worth.....
D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210133\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think we'll get to 40mp in 35mm, probably pushed by Sony who have to make an impact to get noticed. I heard rumours - possibly wrong, as with all rumours - that Sony already has plans to get to 40mp over the next couple of years. They will have their 24mp camera out by the end of the year, as will Nikon. We should be able to get D300 type noise performance from a 40mp 35mm size chip with a little more development, maybe even less. Who, after all, would have predicted the sensational low D3 noise performance just a couple of years back?
I'm not against high pixel counts with MFDB, but the pricing needs adjustment otherwise the number of backs they sell will reduce. After all, how many photographers need 60.5mp? If they are happy the existing kit, who other than a handful of enthusiasts and the like will bother to upgrade? Is the market at these prices big enough to survive during the present economic downturn?
Quentin
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I'm not against high pixel counts with MFDB, but the pricing needs adjustment otherwise the number of backs they sell will reduce. After all, how many photographers need 60.5mp? If they are happy the existing kit, who other than a handful of enthusiasts and the like will bother to upgrade?
Quentin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210139\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I totally agree.
I have a 1DsMk3 and a Hasselblad 39Mp Multi-Shot. The Canon is wonderful to use, the Hassie is extraordinary. I don't need more pixels. I need better software. There is also the issue of depth of field with big sensors. Not really an issue if you're shooting landscape and you want shed loads of pixels, but very relevant in a studio.
D.
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agree Phase have somewhat shot themselves in the foot on this one.
they've made their 45-series the sweet spot, so the uptake on the new back is going to be far lower, at least in the worlds biggest market - the US. Considering their investment in creating this sensor, thats doesn't seem a great move.
I was all gung-ho about upgrading, and prepared to spend maybe $8-9k, but now will hang on to P45+. There's much better things to spend $17k on.
European prices P45+ > P65+
1 yr 10,000 Euros = $15,700
3 yr 11,000 Euros = $17,300
almost identical to US.
obviously they've set the prices in Euros, and it falls where it may in whatever currency.
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"When you purchase a new Phase One Digital Back it eliminates the chance of your equipment becoming obsolete by providing exceptional and affordable Upgrade Paths to the latest models in the future."
ha ha
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"When you purchase a new Phase One Digital Back it eliminates the chance of your equipment becoming obsolete by providing exceptional and affordable Upgrade Paths to the latest models in the future."
ha ha
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Maybe I'm missing something here...
What are the current prices of the P45+ back new and the P65+ back new?
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With Value add warranty 32K-33K P45+
From what I have read so far 42K P65+ with value add
Paul C
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With prices like these, I can see the major 35mm manufacturers wetting their lips in anticipation of an increased market share coming their way as they up their own pixel counts. I was initially enthusiastic about the P65+ but reality hit home after speaking to a few pro photographer friends, one doing high end work for major UK entities, who simply laughed at the idea they would pay that kind of money for a back. Phase have to sell to more than a group of wealthy dilettantes to survive.
Quentin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210122\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
the question is how long can canon and nikon afford to sell their cameras cheaper in the us then anywhere else? canon raised the lens prices a couple of % earlier this year but it just seems strange to me (from a consumer standpoint) that the same camera sells for 8000euros in the EU and for 8000dollars in the US....right now canon is "eating" that difference, for how long though?
this is really the same for all non us goods...cars, clothes, speakers, watches.....yes the us still is the largest market in the world but things are changing.....
porsche is taking over VW right now and in the press they are talking about how well VW is doing...mentioned are india, china, ex-ussr countries (ukraine and such) but not the US (and afaik they are doing well here as well).....realy these companies don't HAVE to be big in the US anymore to survive.....
a client of mine in near shutting down because he can no longer make up for the difference in the euro-dollar exchange....he can't just raise prices, the public would not pay it.....
there is a reason why opec wanted to start trading oil in euros years ago....yes gas is expensive here now, but a BIG part of that is that a barrel of oil is 130?140? dollars, which BTW is 80-90 euros...very near the same price (in euros) it was 5-6 years ago....
the good part is that european companies can produce ads and commercials really cheap in the US right now....they always liked to come to LA and miami and now it is dirt cheap for them to come here....
and the best is of course working for european companies and getting paid in euros:)....
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The main cost issue with the P65+ is its 26% larger sensor size compared to 48x36mm, not pixel count.
Prices about 30% higher than 48x36mm format are no worse than I would expect given that
- The 26% increase in sensor area leads to more than a 26% increases in production cost (due to higher defect rates and possibly needing to stitch more pieces), and
- this will combine with other factors to reduce sales volume, and thus force unit markups to be higher.
Such is the cost of wanting full frame 645 digital, not of 60MP.
Those for whom the price is too high should perhaps seek or hope for the alternative of a somewhat smaller format, with a good quality lens system well adapted to that format, and I suspect that many current MF users will. Whether the most successful alternative will be 48x36mm, 44x33mm, 36x24mm or even smaller, I do not know. Lens systems of sufficient quality and flexibility to match what 645 systems offer do not seem to exist for any smaller format, so far. But maybe I am selling the best of the Nikon or Canon 35mm format lens systems short on quality?
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I totally agree that the price seems hard to justify depending on what business you are in.
For me, shooting landscapes, I will continue to do some stitching when required. I just finished a picture that started out as 16 overlapped shots from a Leaf 75. I suspect the quality would not be improved much by going to the larger chip. But, we will have to wait and see. Once you are stitching, whether you stitch 9 or 16 or ---, it is about the same.
It will be interesting to see a side by side picture when they come out.
Just my 2 cents.
I think I will set this out until I here about better final picture quality...
Dave
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The exchange rate issue should not be too big a deal. Large exporters hedge against currency swings such that any Euro appreciation is partially offset by by the hedge programs.
Who knows, maybe Phase doesn't do this. I know Canon and Nikon do, and most every company anywhere on the planet that sells internationally does the same.
After owning an MFDB for about 6 months, I think I'm going to get a 1ds3. I shot a print collateral job for a vintage glasses boutique on the Lower East Side. Everything from cards to in store displays. I rented a 1ds3 as backup to my P30+/afd, ended up shooting half the job with it. Its just easy, convenient, the color is MUCH better than the ds2, files are plenty big, AF is AWESOME and the VF is, well, like a throwback to Nikon F4 and F5 days, meaning its bright and big, which makes the experience very comfortable. The camera doesn't fight you.
What gives me pause about the MFDB industry is that the cost to upgrade to the P65+ from a P30+ is (presumably) more than a 5 Series BMW, or a year of private school tuition, or a Red 1 with plenty of accessories. This is the direction the MFDB insustry is headed, when the stone masons are already chisiling the commercial still photo industry's epiteth on a large granite tombstone?
Its more than Euro to Dollar FX rates. Its a lack of vision, or if there is a vision, a lack of communication of that vision.
I think I'll drop $7k on a 1ds3 and figure out how to mount my P30 to my RZ.
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Don´t for a moment think it´s all wine and roses in Euroland!
In the last few months we have lost 17% in value importing UK pounds to Spain; we had a new set of wheels on order - getting the figures from the bank here (Spain) and making the exchange and bank %age calculations over that weekend resulted in cancellation ; Mr Ford lost another sale.
Car sales in Spain have fallen by about a third, month on month, and the housing industry is on its knees. The second largest Spanish building company collapsed last week. Banks are becoming less safe than the underside of your mattress. Everywhere you hear complaints about the high €; the Sunday Times this week told the tale of a village in France which has started to accept the French Franc again - they have a further year or so where they can be exchanged for Euros - and the locals there were far from happy with the € either: they claimed to have lost their identity through it. Too true.
The trouble with the € is that it is a bastard currency dreamed up by politicians seeking the ultimate power trip: to be Mr PRESIDENT within a new United States of Europe, something which flew in the face of all the individual nationalities but was fudged, time after time, by most politicos denying their people a referendum on such matters. The people of Ireland, allowed such a vote recently, said NO!; so what now? So now, Mr Bloody France (Mr Carla Bruni), is pressuring them again to vote again UNTIL THEY GET IT RIGHT!
That´s why your dollar sucks, why the quid isn´t worth squat. Oil prices? Our masters (UK) make 70% out of taxes on each sale. Not a fixed price per litre, oh no, a percentage, so they can milk you for suckers as the oil producers and, worse, the futures speculators who don´t even own a pump, play games with your future and mine.
Don´t blame Phase, don´t blame any manufacturer - they are all hostage to the madness of politicians on ego trips.
And it isn´t anything new. I can remember during the rule of our old friend Harold Wilson, making estimates for the production of company calendars. Every quotation had to be protected by a line saying that final price on delivery would depend on rate of inflation at that time. Imagine trying to sell that package to a client in February for delivery in December! I had to.
Rob C
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The people of Ireland, allowed such a vote recently, said NO!; so what now? So now, Mr Bloody France (Mr Carla Bruni), is pressuring them again to vote again UNTIL THEY GET IT RIGHT!
Ahh Rob, we meet again.
Nothing to do with photography but I agree entirely with your comments upon the ego trips of politicos. BTW, Monsieur S. of France now denies ever saying such a thing as Ireland must vote again, good lord perish the thought that he would do such a thing, non non non! However, it is becoming increasingly clear that a 'solution' will be found probably by some perversion of democracy in getting the Dail to vote it through without another referendum on the grounds that it's all far too complicated for us simple souls to understand so we best let our TD's (MP's) do the thinking for us. The Lisbon treaty is a frightening thing, powered not just by the ego's of politicians but the by the big money of global corporations, especially arms manufacturers. Did you realise that it will allow, even encourage, Europe to take 'pre-emptive military action' to safeguard Europe's interests? Pure Bush speak at it's worse and that's before it demands a greater role for private companies in things like health and education.
Justin.
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Ahh Rob, we meet again.
Nothing to do with photography but I agree entirely with your comments upon the ego trips of politicos. BTW, Monsieur S. of France now denies ever saying such a thing as Ireland must vote again, good lord perish the thought that he would do such a thing, non non non! However, it is becoming increasingly clear that a 'solution' will be found probably by some perversion of democracy in getting the Dail to vote it through without another referendum on the grounds that it's all far too complicated for us simple souls to understand so we best let our TD's (MP's) do the thinking for us. The Lisbon treaty is a frightening thing, powered not just by the ego's of politicians but the by the big money of global corporations, especially arms manufacturers. Did you realise that it will allow, even encourage, Europe to take 'pre-emptive military action' to safeguard Europe's interests? Pure Bush speak at it's worse and that's before it demands a greater role for private companies in things like health and education.
Justin.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210260\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Over here the government just past the treaty without second referendum because according to them the treaty was really different now. No longer a constitution but a treaty. The name has changed so it is different and can be passed without the people voting for it.
The world seems to be turning into a really frightening place where we are all turned into 'ant-workers' at best.
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I agree that it is a large delta for even a P45+ owner to make the jump. Too big for me for sure, but clearly there is the wealthier segment of digital imaging pros that will no doubt be early adopters -------- Prolly more than one or two from this very site...
,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210019\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I actually chuckle at the terms upgrade and "value added". I can't tell you how much I'd love to see those terms disappear from my world.
I would like to see more emphasis on the front end of the equipment than the back end.
JR
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I actually chuckle at the terms upgrade and "value added". I can't tell you how much I'd love to see those terms disappear from my world.
I would like to see more emphasis on the front end of the equipment than the back end.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210430\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't know why you edit out some of your best material.
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I don't know why you edit out some of your best material.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210471\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Most of what I write is when I'm either estimating, invoicing or uploading images.
As much as I love the photograph I really don't take the digital stuff too seriously and try to keep a sense of humor about it.
Sometimes it isn't taken that way, hence I edit myself.
Anyway, what I wrote and edited was since medium format designations really have nothing to do with megapixels or even variations of a theme, I suggested they name them by the costs.
JR
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I actually chuckle at the terms upgrade and "value added". I can't tell you how much I'd love to see those terms disappear from my world.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210430\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Value added - isn't that what you're asked at McDonalds?
don
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I think McDonalds is Super Size Me. maybe that would work for the P-65
Value added - isn't that what you're asked at McDonalds?
don
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210505\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I think McDonalds is Super Size Me. maybe that would work for the P-65
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=210519\")
At Wendy's it is called Biggie! I think that would be fitting for the P65+!
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year[/url]
877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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At Wendy's it is called Biggy! I think that would be fitting for the P65+!
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210607\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The funny thing is this is almost the way medium format is marketed. The biggie, the almost biggie, the medium biggie.
That latest Phase newsletter is a great example. Who is going to park a truck on a $40,000 back, or cover a back in ice? If it was meant to be funny it might work, but once again I keep waiting for Mike Myers to pop into the frame.
On the other hand there are positive things in the redesign of the Harteblei lens, that isn't put in public. Same with the redesign of the Phase camera and it's not just phase that seems to get their message skewed.
Look at the Hy6 and AFI. Why is it called those names, it's a Rolliflex . . . right?
What about Rolliflex for Sinar, or Rolliflex for Leaf. That carries some weight. Why throw away the Rolliflex brand name?
Every manufacturer pretty much markets the same way. The same over lit strobe shot that has 200 hours of post production.
I'd get these cameras into the hands of good photographers and have them shoot a personal project.
I'd wouldn't demo just an AFI with one lens in some white walled studio setting, I'd hand somebody a case of lenses, a camera a back and tell them to shoot something from the heart, something that would highlight the lens range Rollei has of that camera,with all those F2's.
It's the image that turns a photographer on, that and real information that allows us to make a decision.
It seems like they either try to sell these things as scientific instruments or cars.
They even price them like cars, with all those add ons.
Sell them as expensive precious works of art that are designed for making expensive precious works of art.
JR
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The funny thing is this is almost the way medium format is marketed. The biggie, the almost biggie, the medium biggie.
That latest Phase newsletter is a great example. Who is going to park a truck on a $40,000 back, or cover a back in ice? If it was meant to be funny it might work, but once again I keep waiting for Mike Myers to pop into the frame.
On the other hand there are positive things in the redesign of the Harteblei lens, that isn't put in public. Same with the redesign of the Phase camera and it's not just phase that seems to get their message skewed.
Look at the Hy6 and AFI. Why is it called those names, it's a Rolliflex . . . right?
What about Rolliflex for Sinar, or Rolliflex for Leaf. That carries some weight. Why throw away the Rolliflex brand name?
Every manufacturer pretty much markets the same way. The same over lit strobe shot that has 200 hours of post production.
I'd get these cameras into the hands of good photographers and have them shoot a personal project.
I'd wouldn't demo just an AFI with one lens in some white walled studio setting, I'd hand somebody a case of lenses, a camera a back and tell them to shoot something from the heart, something that would highlight the lens range Rollei has of that camera,with all those F2's.
It's the image that turns a photographer on, that and real information that allows us to make a decision.
It seems like they either try to sell these things as scientific instruments or cars.
They even price them like cars, with all those add ons.
Sell them as expensive precious works of art that are designed for making expensive precious works of art.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210612\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I also have my doubts that those backs work after a a couple months....
Sure it may turn on after being frozen but will it work a week from now?
Also who is in the market for a P65+ and I ask that seriuosly.
What customers are they looking for.
Where I live it seems the clients are getting cheaper everyday and almost anything goes espeicall for builboards where the quality is iffy at best anyways.
Lot turd here with 5D's charging the same and getting jobs also.
who is going to demand shoots with a P65+?
I ask that seriuosly... is it the car advert guys, that are all going 3D anyways, or who?
Thanks for some insight
Snook
Also Russel you keep mentioning the Rhed camera.. is there a chance that with in the next 5 years your theaory will come true.. I think you mentioned you could shoot video and take the clips from the video for print?
How close to reality is that?
That can change someones future interest quite dramtically.
Sure seems practical but how true could it be.
Would be great to shoot a shoot with video and then take clips from it and print them?
I know nothing about video so any info would be great!
Thanks
Snook
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On the other hand there are positive things in the redesign of the Harteblei lens, that isn't put in public.
Which ones? New lens-design?
Also who is in the market for a P65+ and I ask that seriuosly.
What customers are they looking for.
The same as the P45+ customers, no?
If you already have a P45 there's maybe no need to upgrade. But if you would start with MFDB now... would you prefer e.g. the LCD-display of the H3D e.g. over the possibility to upgrade the chip capabilities of the P65+ in the future? Or over the flexibility that an open system offers?
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Also Russel you keep mentioning the Rhed camera.. is there a chance that with in the next 5 years your theaory will come true.. I think you mentioned you could shoot video and take the clips from the video for print?
How close to reality is that?
That can change someones future interest quite dramtically.
Sure seems practical but how true could it be.
Would be great to shoot a shoot with video and then take clips from it and print them?
I know nothing about video so any info would be great!
Thanks
Snook
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=210617\")
Snook
[a href=\"http://www.red.com/]Red[/url] is out - look at their web site
don
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Snook
Red (http://www.red.com/) is out - look at their web site
don
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210631\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks...
I know red is out but it is not there yet?
I remember Russel commenting in a thread that the future could very well be shooting Video with a camera like the red one and taking stills for print. But HIGH quality print.
That would Kill many people for obvious reasons. No photographer in Commercial shootings.. we'll just use the Clips from the Commercial...?
That is what comes to my mind..
I just turned 40 and have seen a lot in the photography world. Been in the fashion business since I was 16 where I was picked up on the beaches by Bruce Weber and shot Several Big campaigns with him as a model and I cannot begin to explain to you how my fashion life went from then on out...:+}
In any case That would be a major news story if that were true, But the way Russel described it, it is already there here or somewhere getting there fast...?
Again I know very little about video and still do not understand why they can shoot in such low light with out problems an we cannot...:+}
Thanks
Snook
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Plus My head hurts thinking about the post in video and space it uses etc... I am almost overwhelmed at times with space etc.. with digital photography...:+}
Having to learn all that stuff again...argggggg:+{
I hope I can make a living shooting until I die or retire, which ever comes first.
Sorry hit post instead of edit...:+{
Snook
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From what I've seen of Red published stuff, you could use a Red today if you have enough light available. Someone on this forum has a Red, care to comment ?
I've just spent the afternoon doing still-life images at 3s/frame and obviously you won't make those with a Red - but getting a pretty girl to do her moves, swinging her hair and her skirt is more fun than still-life images
Edmund
Also Russel you keep mentioning the Rhed camera.. is there a chance that with in the next 5 years your theaory will come true.. I think you mentioned you could shoot video and take the clips from the video for print?
How close to reality is that?
That can change someones future interest quite dramtically.
Sure seems practical but how true could it be.
Would be great to shoot a shoot with video and then take clips from it and print them?
I know nothing about video so any info would be great!
Thanks
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210617\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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From what I've seen of Red published stuff, you could use a Red today if you have enough light available. Someone on this forum has a Red, care to comment ?
I've just spent the afternoon doing still-life images at 3s/frame and obviously you won't make those with a Red - but getting a pretty girl to do her moves, swinging her hair and her skirt is more fun than still-life images
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210644\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I never meant to imply that the Red will replace still photography, though I do believe moving imagery will marginalize print photography in commerce and editorial.
I do think the Red could probably be turned into a combination still and cinema camera, but I doubt if still imagery is high on the Red's list of priorities.
I think what the Red does illustrate is how a 2 year camera from scratch can rock the market and stands a chance to dominate, espeially since the system is so well thought out, from capture to viewing, to post.
We've seen nothing like that in still photograpy, at least not in one cohesive system.
Then again I continue to believe that some of the issue with medium format in general is the marketing.
I firmly believe if medium format had bmw and Lexus make them some cars, they would insist on changing their names to Tree and Magnum.
JR
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I never meant to imply that the Red will replace still photography, though I do believe moving imagery will marginalize print photography in commerce and editorial.
True, to take the topic even further, in the future print itself might be in big trouble because internet is taking over. I think many marketeers will start to hop on the "video is better than still" mentality. Why put a picture online if you can post a moving image? It's a much richer experience in many cases...
I do think the Red could probably be turned into a combination still and cinema camera, but I doubt if still imagery is high on the Red's list of priorities.
Well, Jim Jannard is an avid photographer as well, so who knows...
I never expected the guy to start building film-gear either.
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Plus My head hurts thinking about the post in video and space it uses etc... I am almost overwhelmed at times with space etc.. with digital photography...:+}
Having to learn all that stuff again...argggggg:+{
I hope I can make a living shooting until I die or retire, which ever comes first.
Sorry hit post instead of edit...:+{
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210637\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Besides really high end print, I think there is less than a decade left in the commercial stills market, at leat in LA and New York. There will be some sort of convergence, but the real story is how advertising and editorial will be displayed. Print will be mostly dead in a decade. The stuff we shoot will be displayed electronicaly (web, large and cheap LCD's), which lends itself to video.
So sell all those strobes and buy some HMI's, learn FCP, and learn to work with large crews in a collaborative environment. I'm actually starting a production company with some people where stills are a part of the whole, but its mainly video.
And yes, I dusted off my Arri 650s and 1ks, and am looking to buy some used K5600 or Bron 575 and 1200 HMIs. Just bought two Arri 125 pocket pars. I figure the basic HMI kit is a better investment than an upgrade to a P65+.
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The feature (silver-based) film crowd seem to be upgrading as well - read below:
http://www.studiodaily.com/filmandvideo/cu...issue/9703.html (http://www.studiodaily.com/filmandvideo/currentissue/9703.html)
What is frightening is not that they have 100TB of data, it's that they ONLY have 100TB of data from a full-length IMAX feature movie.
Edmund
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Hi guys, it's me that has a RED-One digital cam.
I have to say that you can print a nice A3 still frame from it any time.
I did a test with an ad-agency to show the client that we could use the RED for film and print.
We couldn't believe it. The A3 print was very nice. You can pull a 40mb tiff still file from it.
As I said it in an other thread, it wont take too long and we will be able to film and take pictures with just one cam on a high-end level. Since I have the RED I realy think so.
RED is realy pushing it. Jim Jannard the owner and founder of RED is also a big photography fan like all of us. He hasn't even started yet, but the film indusrty is almost up side down because of the new cams.
If only the DB makers would be as open and inovativ as RED.
The big gamechanger will be coming earlier than we think or would love it.
Just stay open minded and see it as a chance and not as threat.
Tim
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Thank you Tim...
And yes your scaring me...:+}
Snook
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Hi guys, it's me that has a RED-One digital cam.
I have to say that you can print a nice A3 still frame from it any time.
I did a test with an ad-agency to show the client that we could use the RED for film and print.
We couldn't believe it. The A3 print was very nice. You can pull a 40mb tiff still file from it.
As I said it in an other thread, it wont take too long and we will be able to film and take pictures with just one cam on a high-end level. Since I have the RED I realy think so.
RED is realy pushing it. Jim Jannard the owner and founder of RED is also a big photography fan like all of us. He hasn't even started yet, but the film indusrty is almost up side down because of the new cams.
If only the DB makers would be as open and inovativ as RED.
The big gamechanger will be coming earlier than we think or would love it.
Just stay open minded and see it as a chance and not as threat.
Tim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210691\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Could you post a still frame (or two) at 100%? I'm really curious to see for myself, and I bet others are too.
Snook, change is for the best, hang in there :-)
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Could you post a still frame (or two) at 100%? I'm really curious to see for myself, and I bet others are too.
Snook, change is for the best, hang in there :-)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210700\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
yes even a 50% crop would be nice..:+}
Anything would be nice..
Snook
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Ok guys give me a day. I'm not at the office at the week end.
But I'll post something.
Remember, the RED has a 12 MP chip in it. So it's 5D land.
Good night.
Tim
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Ok guys give me a day. I'm not at the office at the week end.
But I'll post something.
Remember, the RED has a 12 MP chip in it. So it's 5D land.
Good night.
Tim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210717\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Please do...
That 12 mp is you could take out an image from any frame of the red and it will be 12 mp quality.
In theory I could shoot a girl jumping once or swinging around her hair and just grab the best frame in the sequence and print it at 12 mp quality?
Snook
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Please do...
That 12 mp is you could take out an image from any frame of the red and it will be 12 mp quality.
In theory I could shoot a girl jumping once or swinging around her hair and just grab the best frame in the sequence and print it at 12 mp quality?
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210719\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes this is where its going. 12mp raw 30 frames per second. You could just move the camera around and then stitch all the images together to make huge panorama prints or still photos.
The only problem is storage and processing times.
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The thing is, the frame will be 16:9 ratio, which is wide, and then you crop to 4:3 and you're left with what? Plus the sensor is Super 35mm size, which is MUCH smaller than a full-frame 35mm still camera frame size, so the DOF is quite different from even a 5D (it'll be more like a 20D), and way different than Medium Format digital, especially now, with the full-frame P65+.
Don't get me wrong. It's nice that you can capture an amazing looking 12MP frame from a video camera. The RED cinema 4K and 4.5K cameras are a dream for motion capture and filmmaking, but I honestly wouldn't want to use it for capturing stills. There's much better tools out there for doing that right now, IMO.
The main thing I think is significant is the company itself. RED is one of a kind. I like this line on the specs for the new 5K camera:
"FULLY UPGRADABLE SENSOR, BODY, BOARDS AND MOUNT."
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There is truth to this, but think of the possibilities for online editorials and advertising.
The IQ will no doubt suffice, there's no need for seperate still and motion production, and if print loses its footing (which it will) we'll all be staring at a 16:9ratio all the live long day anyway.
for print, I agree. Might be to little in terms of possibilities. Depends on what you need though...
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The thing is, the frame will be 16:9 ratio, which is wide, and then you crop to 4:3 and you're left with what? Plus the sensor is Super 35mm size, which is MUCH smaller than a full-frame 35mm still camera frame size, so the DOF is quite different from even a 5D (it'll be more like a 20D), and way different than Medium Format digital, especially now, with the full-frame P65+.
Don't get me wrong. It's nice that you can capture an amazing looking 12MP frame from a video camera. The RED cinema 4K and 4.5K cameras are a dream for motion capture and filmmaking, but I honestly wouldn't want to use it for capturing stills. There's much better tools out there for doing that right now, IMO.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210723\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think the point is, this is the direction photography is heading. Of course there are better still imaging devices then the Red One camera, but it is a really impressive, innovative tool and at a great price to boot. It was a huge leap from the video camera's of the past to the Red One. This company seems to be doing things a bit smarter then the MFDB manufacturers, but what do I know, maybe the manufacturing and R&D costs are very different between the two.
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Yes, I'm just talking about present time, but no doubt, this is where everything is headed in the future (maybe less than 5 years?). Eh, we'll have to wait and see.
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maybe the manufacturing and R&D costs are very different between the two.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210726\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Maybe . . . it depends on who you talk to .
I hear things like distribution channels, sensor costs, dealer markup/incentives, etc. and depending on who you are talking to, the dealers, the makers, the competition, all have a different story.
I'm not sure what the RED's availability is, but I do know I can go on their site, click on what I want to buy and get a total of everything it takes to go to work. The front lens mount is interchangeable, the file format is already worked to go into NLE's and most of all the camera looks like it is worth the money.
If RED made a still camera with this type of system, they'd impact the market.
JR
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Hi James
If you order a RED today, you wont get it this year. The demand is that high.
I have waited about a year from the day I ordered to when I finaly got it.
I was one of the early birds.
They ramped up their production but it still takes about half a year. But they get faster and faster.
Just some figures:
Sony sold about 5000 high-end HDCAMS over the last 5 years. RED sold about 2200 in just 10 months and has about 3000 more on order. The DB makers should think about those numbers. That happens, when you bring out something realy great or revolutionary.
It could be so easy. Build a great cam at a good pricepoint and people will go crazy.
Tim
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Can I buy shares in that company?
It might make me more $ than photography LOL
Regards,
WR
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maximum 60 seconds exposure , they can keep it and I keep my P45
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Hi James
If you order a RED today, you wont get it this year. The demand is that high.
I have waited about a year from the day I ordered to when I finaly got it.
I was one of the early birds.
They ramped up their production but it still takes about half a year. But they get faster and faster.
Just some figures:
Sony sold about 5000 high-end HDCAMS over the last 5 years. RED sold about 2200 in just 10 months and has about 3000 more on order. The DB makers should think about those numbers. That happens, when you bring out something realy great or revolutionary.
It could be so easy. Build a great cam at a good pricepoint and people will go crazy.
Tim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=210899\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Tim,
The situation with Sony may change. The EX1 is as good as the 9000 series HDcams, is smaller, lighter, and 1/3 the price. They are selling lots and lots, at least until the new Red comes out!
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Hi Mark
you are right, the EX-1 is a killer cam.
I worked with it several times and I love it.
The IC is superb compared to the sony high-end machines.
If Sony could develop a better codec that is as thik as the RED RAW then they
would have the cam of all cams.
It's like with DB and the 35mm canons. The DBs are a joy to colorgrade where the normal 35mm options brake apart to early.
As I said it before, Sony could build a RED killer any minute. But they would hurt their own high-end line-up.
They should build an EX-4 with RAW format. That would be great.
Tim
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Hi Mark
you are right, the EX-1 is a killer cam.
I worked with it several times and I love it.
The IC is superb compared to the sony high-end machines.
If Sony could develop a better codec that is as thik as the RED RAW then they
would have the cam of all cams.
It's like with DB and the 35mm canons. The DBs are a joy to colorgrade where the normal 35mm options brake apart to early.
As I said it before, Sony could build a RED killer any minute. But they would hurt their own high-end line-up.
They should build an EX-4 with RAW format. That would be great.
Tim
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211134\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think the team that came up with the EX1 would love to build a cam targeting the Red, but that's not how Sony works. A Red killer is not within the brief of the EX1 team. It was hard for them to get the EX3 made, what with interchangable lenses, PL mounts, etc etc competes a little too hard with their "higher end" cams. They might be able to make a RAW shooter, as adding this functionality may be under the radar.
I like that you can trade in the Red One for an Epic when they are released for full credit towards the Epic purchase. Nice touch.
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would you guys mind starting a separate thread for the RED/Video discussion?
this one is about Phase P65+ back, and its best to keep it on topic for all concerned, and the broader health of the forum.
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would you guys mind starting a separate thread for the RED/Video discussion?
this one is about Phase P65+ back, and its best to keep it on topic for all concerned, and the broader health of the forum.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211377\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Discussing the Red and the new Sony xdcams is germane to the thread, as this thread evolved into a discussion of what the hell the MFDB manufacturers are thinking, and comparisons to the manufacturers of high end video, which has some overlap. That being said, this is probably not the place to discuss the RED RAW format, Sont battery usage, SyS PCI-X cards, etc.
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Discussing the Red and the new Sony xdcams is germane to the thread, as this thread evolved into a discussion of what the hell
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211397\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You don't have to be clairvoyant to see where stills can and probably will go.
If you've seen the FX trailer of The Shield, where the lead actor is shot like a still that moves, ramps, and changes to particle dust, you can see the power of the "15 second" still.
After all, we are now viewing 15 second stills on the computer and in some way are moving them, from a mouse click or a page turn.
Everybody I know talks about the viability of print, computers, video, film, etc. etc., and all the conversation about cross over.
To me cross over is not just limited to the type of camera, or the traditional thought of shooting for cinema, or broadcast or print, but the fact that the skill set and talent for shooting a beautiful still can translate into a beautiful moving image, even if the movement is subtle or small.
Let's face it the whole idea of art, either for commerce, editorial, personal or fine art is to grab the viewers attention.
I am not suggesting the end the still photography, but more the beginning of a combined and new medium.
Once again if you want to sell me a camera, give me something I can't obviously do with my present cameras and the mention of the RED probably does fit into the discussion of medium format backs, considering that the costs and complexity, even workflow are comparable.
JR
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It is a little-known fact that the development of the P65+ back (and the Red camera) was financed by a consortium of both Apple XServe RAID Subgroup and LaCie RAID Subgroup. As they say on TV murder plots, "Follow the money. Who's got the most to gain here?"
On those new 32 gig cards, you can fit a whole 12 action-packed P65+ images on a card. They're trying to give you that vintage feeling of an A12 Hassie back.
Two steps forward, and three steps backward.
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It is a little-known fact that the development of the P65+ back (and the Red camera) was financed by a consortium of both Apple XServe RAID Subgroup and LaCie RAID Subgroup. As they say on TV murder plots, "Follow the money. Who's got the most to gain here?"
On those new 32 gig cards, you can fit a whole 12 action-packed P65+ images on a card. They're trying to give you that vintage feeling of an A12 Hassie back.
Two steps forward, and three steps backward.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211416\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The difference between motion and stills is, with the motion industry by the time the RED gets into even moderate play, there will be a professional system for storage, on line and off. (And a line item on the invoice for said storage).
Us lowly still guys are still stuck digging around the back of the apple store, buying lacies, G drives and Maxtor Books to backup our 60mb files.
Follow the money? If medium format really wanted to make some money, they'd come out with their own storage systems.
JR
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To me cross over is not just limited to the type of camera, or the traditional thought of shooting for cinema, or broadcast or print, but the fact that the skill set and talent for shooting a beautiful still can translate into a beautiful moving image, even if the movement is subtle or small.
. . .
Once again if you want to sell me a camera, give me something I can't obviously do with my present cameras and the mention of the RED probably does fit into the discussion of medium format backs, considering that the costs and complexity, even workflow are comparable.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211406\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is what is giving me a wedgie about the new backs and the MFDB market: its the fact that the studio/fashion shooter has the same skill set and similar workflow as videographers, but we make less money per shoot and take on more responsibility and have a harder time with our gear. There is no reason the guy who produces the Apple iPod dancing silhuette commercials should make $300k per commercial (all in, with usage) while a comperable stills shoot pulls in $75k - $100k, and did I mention the equipment to shoot the Apple commercial is identical, but for the camera systems? And guess which camera system costs more? Which is integrated and reliable?
Here is another example of why the stills market place is bassakwards: When I work as a gaffer I make $2,000 a day. When people have asked me to light commercial stills they want to pay me like an assistant, maybe $700 a day. Same skill set. Almost the same lights.
It just seems insane for the MFDB industry to push these mega expensive backs on the market, when what is needed are lower costs to match market reality, and good camera systems to hang these backs on.
All that being said, I bet the P65 will be a really nice piece of equipment. I wonder what people will think of it in 5 years? Will it be seen as a blunder or the beggining of a brave new world?
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All that being said, I bet the P65 will be a really nice piece of equipment. I wonder what people will think of it in 5 years? Will it be seen as a blunder or the beggining of a brave new world?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211440\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As a former user of MF equipment for 38 years, who
has now switched to full frame digital I need to add my 2 cents worth.
The rise of the Canon 1dS and its full frame digital progeny decimated the MF
camera world. The bulk of the MF market was not composed of big time fashion pros likes James Russell. It was the average wedding and portrait shooter who made Hasselblad, Mamiya, Pentax and the like.
If the MF makers don't come out with a sub $10,000 back, which works well,
the whole MF industry will still remain a small niche market. The Mamiya ZD was an attempt at this which has failed due to its low quality.
The average shooter doesn't need a 60 megapixel back that is $40,000. A 30 megapixel, affordable back, that works at ISO 400 would increase MF digital sales by about 1000%.
It can be done, it just takes the desire and $ to do it.
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The average shooter doesn't need a 60 megapixel back that is $40,000. A 30 megapixel, affordable back, that works at ISO 400 would increase MF digital sales by about 1000%.
It can be done, it just takes the desire and $ to do it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211446\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That basically means - as many of us have been thinking anyway - that if only the Mamiya ZD back had been done right, that would have been just the thing and Mamiya would now hold the number 1 spot in terms of backs sold...
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If the MF makers don't come out with a sub $10,000 back, which works well,
the whole MF industry will still remain a small niche market. The Mamiya ZD was an attempt at this which has failed due to its low quality.
The average shooter doesn't need a 60 megapixel back that is $40,000. A 30 megapixel, affordable back, that works at ISO 400 would increase MF digital sales by about 1000%.
It can be done, it just takes the desire and $ to do it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211446\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is very true, and is something the market understands.
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That basically means - as many of us have been thinking anyway - that if only the Mamiya ZD back had been done right, that would have been just the thing and Mamiya would now hold the number 1 spot in terms of backs sold...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211447\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
While the ZD makes a nice file, you have to fight to get there. That is assuming you get one that works in the first place. I demoed three different ZD backs and all of them had some sort of problem. Now that Phase is on board, do you think there will be a ZD II that works? Probably not. If it did, who would buy a P21 or even a P30, much less a P25?
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If the MF makers don't come out with a sub $10,000 back, which works well,
the whole MF industry will still remain a small niche market. The Mamiya ZD was an attempt at this which has failed due to its low quality.
The average shooter doesn't need a 60 megapixel back that is $40,000. A 30 megapixel, affordable back, that works at ISO 400 would increase MF digital sales by about 1000%.
It can be done, it just takes the desire and $ to do it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211446\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Brand new P20+ $10,499
Brand new P21+ $11,499
Refurbs at substantially lower prices and if you buy it with a Phase One camera the savings get bigger. As an example, refurb P30 with a brand new Phase ONe 645 AF and new 80mm lens, full 1 year warrany $14,499. Have you shot with a P30 at ISO 400?
These are NOT street prices.
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The average shooter doesn't need a 60 megapixel back that is $40,000. A 30 megapixel, affordable back, that works at ISO 400 would increase MF digital sales by about 1000%.
It can be done, it just takes the desire and $ to do it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211446\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Agreed, but please put blame for the cost where it belongs: on sensor size, not pixel count.
My guess is that what is needed for the "weddings and portraits" market is the pairing of a good quality lens system for some format to a sufficiently affordable sensor in that format. I doubt that full 645 format sensors will never reach that price range and maybe not 48x36mm either. Former "affordable MF" favorite Pentax seemed to be aiming at 44x33mm with its now frozen plans for an integrated 44x33mm sensor body and matching 55mm normal lens. Maybe 44x33 will rise again (with some new lenses), maybe 48x36 will get the new lenses and price cuts it needs, but for now it seems more likely that maybe 35mm will continue its takeover of most of this market. The Nikon D700 seems to be exciting some wedding pros.
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Brand new P20+ $10,499
Brand new P21+ $11,499
These are NOT street prices.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211461\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why do we have to have street prices versus list? This frustrates me to no end. I know several people who would like to shoot MFDB but say, "I can't/won't spend $20,000/$30,000 on a back. That's just stupid." Well, they could spend under $10k and get a back, but they don't know that. Since they don't know it and clients don't need MFDB, they happily shoot their 1ds3's and 120 film. People are used to seeing that a 1ds3 is $7,800 on the B&H website, and the camera actually sells for $7,800.
I read on another forum where a guy got a Sinar Hy6/54LV for a little over $17,500. I personally, when looking at this cam last year at Fotocare, before the price drop to $22k list, was quoted $28,500. But people are getting them for $17.5 now?
Tell you the truth, I don't even know what value I should schedule my P30+ on my insurance. The $19,900 list? The purchase price? The price I think it would fetch in ebay? What JR paid for his? What Mark Tucker got for his when he soild all his MFDB stuff?
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Why do we have to have street prices versus list? This frustrates me to no end. I know several people who would like to shoot MFDB but say, "I can't/won't spend $20,000/$30,000 on a back. That's just stupid." [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211477\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
TMARK,
I agree to an extent. We take the approach that there is more to buying a system than just the price. I know alot of people will disagree with me but....
I think you'll agree that our industry is not the only one that takes this approach. How many here remeber the "call for best price" note in photo magazines or looking at the sticker price on a car and knowing that you'll buy for less most times, or negotiating the purchase of a home, or negotiating with a private seller for photo goods?
The point I was trying to make is that MFDB's are affordable and accessible.
By the way, I think you should insure your P30+ for replacement value, assuming you will get no discount on the price. I would also suggest that you review the insurance value of your equipment regularly. If the price has dropped you should drop your insurance accordingly and save a few bucks.
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TMARK,
I agree to an extent. We take the approach that there is more to buying a system than just the price. I know alot of people will disagree with me but....
I think you'll agree that our industry is not the only one that takes this approach. How many here remeber the "call for best price" note in photo magazines or looking at the sticker price on a car and knowing that you'll buy for less most times, or negotiating the purchase of a home, or negotiating with a private seller for photo goods?
The point I was trying to make is that MFDB's are affordable and accessible.
By the way, I think you should insure your P30+ for replacement value, assuming you will get no discount on the price. I would also suggest that you review the insurance value of your equipment regularly. If the price has dropped you should drop your insurance accordingly and save a few bucks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211480\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I hate the "call for best price" approach.
I much prefer the B&H way of doing things, I hate bargaining.
Good marketing tactic is to sell things with minimal effort on the consumer's part. Canon knows this.
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Why do we have to have street prices versus list? This frustrates me to no end. I know several people who would like to shoot MFDB but say, "I can't/won't spend $20,000/$30,000 on a back. That's just stupid." Well, they could spend under $10k and get a back, but they don't know that. Since they don't know it and clients don't need MFDB, they happily shoot their 1ds3's and 120 film. People are used to seeing that a 1ds3 is $7,800 on the B&H website, and the camera actually sells for $7,800.
I read on another forum where a guy got a Sinar Hy6/54LV for a little over $17,500. I personally, when looking at this cam last year at Fotocare, before the price drop to $22k list, was quoted $28,500. But people are getting them for $17.5 now?
Tell you the truth, I don't even know what value I should schedule my P30+ on my insurance. The $19,900 list? The purchase price? The price I think it would fetch in ebay? What JR paid for his? What Mark Tucker got for his when he soild all his MFDB stuff?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211477\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Are you kidding people are buying the Hy6 for $17,500 ? I wonder what the guys who paid full price think about that ? When will the MFDB makers stop treating their products like the car manufacturers do ? This sort of pricing behaviour is insane and leaves a bitter taste.
Pete
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Are you kidding people are buying the Hy6 for $17,500 ? I wonder what the guys who paid full price think about that ? When will the MFDB makers stop treating their products like the car manufacturers do ? This sort of pricing behaviour is insane and leaves a bitter taste.
Pete
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211505\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A guy says he bought a hy6 camera only and then was offered a 54lv for 10k that was bought and traded in immediatly for a 75lv.
The market for MFDB is small because the manufacturers make it small, knowingly or not.
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The point I was trying to make is that MFDB's are affordable and accessible.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211480\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
All the examples of "affordable" MFDB's in this discussion have two-generation old sensors with 9 micron cell size giving pixel counts the same as or less than 35mm DSLR's now offer, and the P20+ and P21+ in particular also impose heavy crops on lenses, with their 37x37mm 16MP and 33x44mm 18MP sensors respectively.
And Mamiya ZD back pricing seems to be a matter of the new owners clearing out stocks of a bulk sensor purchase to minimize losses, not an example of a price level at which a MFDB can be profitably offered.
End-of-life prices on backs with sensors that will probably soon be discontinued are probably not a good indicator of what is possible in pricing of new models, or even of viable average price over a MFDB's life-time.
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I have been hearing the death of print for ten years.
Print will go nowhere web will be a supplement to print or eventually print will be a supplement to web. When they can get battery life figured out then we can talk about the death of print. eBooks and all the digital content is great. But nothing like a physical thing you can flip through and toss in your bag whether local about town or traveling internationally.
I would be the first one to buy a full color eBook that I could plug into the net via ethernet or obviously aircard and download all my magazines and books for the month. Download behind the scenes video of photo shoots, behind the scenes interviews, etc..
But the reality, is that print is going nowhere until you can put a battery together that will give you 48 hours of continuous use. I mean 48 hours of ON time while you are moving between files and magazines, videos, etc.. Come on my iPhone can barely give me two hours of continuous use.
Who ever can design, produce and patent a new battery technology will be the next Rockerfeller, Gates, etc..
Something that is no more than an inch thick and 8x10 in format and full color screen like a macbook air.
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On those new 32 gig cards, you can fit a whole 12 action-packed P65+ images on a card. They're trying to give you that vintage feeling of an A12 Hassie back.
Two steps forward, and three steps backward.
Don't know what you mean here. Care to explain?
So what you're saying is that a single P65+ RAW file = 2.6GB?
Right...
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BTW,
There is a huge editorial shooter here in NYC that was just shooting at Sun the other day with me in the other room. During a break we were chatting in the Cappuccino bar. Here I am with my P25, P30 and P45 and he is still shooting with his Valeo on a Contax from five years ago that he bought new.
Loves it and says it has his quirks, but he gets through it. When he does catalog he is on his ORIGINAL 11mp 1Ds and for editorial and advertising he is on his Valeo 22. He says he has rented an Aptus for a couple of shoots because the art director thought he knew what he was talking about.
Shot with both cameras and the final selects were done with the Aptus. I was laughing when we were at the coffee bar. That is the great thing about people that aren't scared about oooohh am I going to be laughed at. He could give a shit!
This is a guy who shoots every day for every major Conde Nast publication and Hachette publication. As well as major beauty campaigns. it is funny how every one here chases their tale and this guy just shoots.
All I know is that I won't be buying anything for many years to come. The only thing on my horizon will be the Nikon D700 next week and Nikon's next full frame D3x in January.
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BTW,
There is a huge editorial shooter here in NYC that was just shooting at Sun the other day with me in the other room. During a break we were chatting in the Cappuccino bar. Here I am with my P25, P30 and P45 and he is still shooting with his Valeo on a Contax from five years ago that he bought new.
Loves it and says it has his quirks, but he gets through it. When he does catalog he is on his ORIGINAL 11mp 1Ds and for editorial and advertising he is on his Valeo 22. He says he has rented an Aptus for a couple of shoots because the art director thought he knew what he was talking about.
Shot with both cameras and the final selects were done with the Aptus. I was laughing when we were at the coffee bar. That is the great thing about people that aren't scared about oooohh am I going to be laughed at. He could give a shit!
This is a guy who shoots every day for every major Conde Nast publication and Hachette publication. As well as major beauty campaigns. it is funny how every one here chases their tale and this guy just shoots.
All I know is that I won't be buying anything for many years to come. The only thing on my horizon will be the Nikon D700 next week and Nikon's next full frame D3x in January.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211563\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
EXACTLY! It was good enough then, it's good enough now. All of this is just keeping up with the Joneses.......buy it when you neeeeeeeed it....I mean really need it. Otherwise you're just throwing money into the wind...I never really understood people complaining about shit changing all the time...yeah, there's something new out there but, doesn't mean you have to go out and get it and waste your money and time on it......do your research. buy once and use the shit out of until it doesn't go anymore.
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Brand new P20+ $10,499
Brand new P21+ $11,499
Refurbs at substantially lower prices and if you buy it with a Phase One camera the savings get bigger. As an example, refurb P30 with a brand new Phase ONe 645 AF and new 80mm lens, full 1 year warrany $14,499. Have you shot with a P30 at ISO 400?
These are NOT street prices.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211461\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If Phase would price the P21+ with a Phase 645 Kit (including the 80mm lens) for $9,999 USD, I think they could really get somewhere. It's not full-frame (loosely speaking), but it's a decent size. At $2k above a 1Ds3 price point - it's a viable alternative and I think most people thinking of a 1Ds3 purchase could stretch their budget to cover $9999. With the 80mm kit lens included, it's almost apples to apples if the Canon budget included $1200 for the 50L F1.2.
The new Phase, Hass & Leaf are $40k systems barring whatever discount is applied. That's so above and beyond a high end dSLR, that it's not even a remotely feasible alternative / choice. As for Phase's $10,490 for the P20+ kit. The P20 with a 645AFDII kit was $8,990 18-24 months ago. Actually, I think the medium format makers have zero interest in courting the sub-$20k market. Their prices just keep going up and now we're supposed to think $30k-$35k is an okay price point.
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Their prices just keep going up and now we're supposed to think $30k-$35k is an okay price point.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=211861\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is the first time that a new back/camera anouncement may mean the worth of my P30+ and P21+ might have gone up rather than down.
If they keep this up my Contax is going to be worth 10 grand.
JR