Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: amsp on June 30, 2008, 05:09:26 am
-
Thanks Michael, I enjoyed reading your review, although I was left wondering a bit about some critical improvements. How was the AF? compared to the AFDII, and the competition. Was the selectable AF-points useful or useless? Has the shutter lag been dealt with? Maybe you could elaborate a little in this thread or update your review.
Cheers
-
Hi,
On my blog www.doorhof.nl/blog I have a small review on the AFD/III comparing it to the AFD/II.
Greetings,
Frank
-
Hi,
On my blog www.doorhof.nl/blog I have a small review on the AFD/III comparing it to the AFD/II.
Greetings,
Frank
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204496\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yepp, read it thanks.
-
Here is a link to the review:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/.../phase645.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/phase645.shtml)
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
877-217-9870 | National Atlanta/Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
-
Hi,
On my blog www.doorhof.nl/blog I have a small review on the AFD/III comparing it to the AFD/II.
Greetings,
Frank
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204496\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
By the way, I was surprised to see in your review that the AF is noisier, I thought it was supposed to be more quiet according to the info from P1?
-
Here is a link to the review:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/.../phase645.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/phase645.shtml)
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
877-217-9870 | National Atlanta/Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204510\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
We were told form the beginning that the "new" leaf shutter lens WOULD work on the AFDII..
Now it sounds as if they are going back on that..
The review clearly states that even on the new AFDIII they will have to be sent back to mamiya for firmware upgrade...?
What about the AFDII?
Thanks for any correction on this, if there is any...:+}
Snook
-
By the way, I was surprised to see in your review that the AF is noisier, I thought it was supposed to be more quiet according to the info from P1?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204517\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
From Michael's review:
"The camera I used was the first off the assembly line with final production firmware, and was provided for testing by Kevin Raber, Phase One's Marketing VP for North America. (I am told that pre-production cameras that were circulated during May and early June did not have final firmware, and any testing of them done should therefore be discounted. The production cameras are apparently much faster responding and smoother). "
-
The new cameras will definately have to go in for updating to support leaf lenses when they start to appear. The interface design is not yet final.
I do not believe that AFDII's will be able to use the new leaf lenses. Apparently one of the big changes to the AFDIII brought about by Phase One's involvement in the project, is that the camera is now to a large extent firmware driven rather than using dedicated circuitry. This would appear to make upgrading the previous AFDII problematic.
Michael
We were told form the beginning that the "new" leaf shutter lens WOULD work on the AFDII..
Now it sounds as if they are going back on that..
The review clearly states that even on the new AFDIII they will have to be sent back to mamiya for firmware upgrade...?
What about the AFDII?
Thanks for any correction on this, if there is any...:+}
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204518\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
The new cameras will definately have to go in for updating to support leaf lenses when they start to appear. The interface design is not yet final.
I do not believe that AFDII's will be able to use the new leaf lenses. Apparently one of the big changes to the AFDIII brought about by Phase One's involvement in the project, is that the camera is now to a large extent firmware driven rather than using dedicated circuitry. This would appear to make upgrading the previous AFDII problematic.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204530\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks for the extra information Michael..
I hope your wrong...:+} JK
Looks like a new body and one of the leafs are going to be back up in the 8-12,000 range just for body and one lens again...?
Bummer....
The latest Mamiya lens was well over 4,000 , I can only imagine leaf shutter (German Company)
new glass "D" to be pretty Costly...
Is a Zoom Leaf shutter possible..?
would hate to have to buy more than one lens at those prices.
That might help those 35 vs. MFDB threads in Favor of 35mm (Unfortunately) For me.
In any case thank you for the review and the Post..
Snook
-
Thanks for the extra information Michael..
I hope your wrong...:+} JK
Looks like a new body and one of the leafs are going to be back up in the 8-12,000 range just for body and one lens again...?
Bummer....
The latest Mamiya lens was well over 4,000 , I can only imagine leaf shutter (German Company)
new glass "D" to be pretty Costly...
Is a Zoom Leaf shutter possible..?
would hate to have to buy more than one lens at those prices.
That might help those 35 vs. MFDB threads in Favor of 35mm (Unfortunately) For me.
In any case thank you for the review and the Post..
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204532\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Phase 645 is too expensive. With a three year warranty its as much as a Hy6 and 80mm. Since price is out of the equation Mamiya/Phase are competing on quality and brand perception alone. While I like the AFD3/Phase 645 more than the H series (mostly), new comers hear "Hasselblad" and they get all warm and fuzzy because "'blad is the best!" and there is all the market hype and the (good) marketing etc. They buy the blad instead of the Phamiya, because who the hell has heard of Mamiya outside of professional photographers and a few ADs? I think that Mamiya/Phase should save a price increase for their next camera that is something truly new, from the ground up.
I wonder what street prices are going to be? At $2k, maybe $2.5k (body only) I'd bite. The AF is better, the feel is tighter. Its a nice camera. But for $7,999 I could buy a Sony EX-1 xdcam and go to Paris for a few days to meet with photo editors. Or I could get a 1ds3. In any case, as a business person, $8k could be invested into something else that would expand my capabilities. Faster AF and the "opportunity" to buy really, really expensive new lenses, leaf shutter or not, is NOT worth $8k.
-
The Phase 645 is too expensive. With a three year warranty its as much as a Hy6 and 80mm. Since price is out of the equation Mamiya/Phase are competing on quality and brand perception alone. While I like the AFD3/Phase 645 more than the H series (mostly), new comers hear "Hasselblad" and they get all warm and fuzzy because "'blad is the best!" and there is all the market hype and the (good) marketing etc. They buy the blad instead of the Phamiya, because who the hell has heard of Mamiya outside of professional photographers and a few ADs? I think that Mamiya/Phase should save a price increase for their next camera that is something truly new, from the ground up.
I wonder what street prices are going to be? At $2k, maybe $2.5k (body only) I'd bite. The AF is better, the feel is tighter. Its a nice camera. But for $7,999 I could buy a Sony EX-1 xdcam and go to Paris for a few days to meet with photo editors. Or I could get a 1ds3. In any case, as a business person, $8k could be invested into something else that would expand my capabilities. Faster AF and the "opportunity" to buy really, really expensive new lenses, leaf shutter or not, is NOT worth $8k.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204543\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Buy a Phase back and it is free with a 80mm lens. Free is kind of nice. Waiting for mine to arrive just recently bought the P25 plus. Buy a leaf back and it is also Free when the Mamiya version comes out. 7,999.00 is not going to be the selling price for it alone, more like 5k from what I saw. Chris can give you a more accurate number on the body alone
-
What I know is that the Dutch price will be in the 2500-2700 euro range.
That's including 19% VAT.
For the body.
I think for a MF body with the specs and handling of the 645AFD/III that is NOT expensive.
The Afi is of course a great system but the 645AFD/III is smaller to travel with and to do street style shooting.
-
MSRP on the Mamiya 645 AFD II is US$3,499.00 for the camera body alone at B&H. I'd be happy if the camera body were in that price range. I don't think the market would bear much more than that absent some really spectacular improvements over the current body.
-
Buy a Phase back and it is free with a 80mm lens. Free is kind of nice. Waiting for mine to arrive just recently bought the P25 plus. Buy a leaf back and it is also Free when the Mamiya version comes out. 7,999.00 is not going to be the selling price for it alone, more like 5k from what I saw. Chris can give you a more accurate number on the body alone
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204557\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Is that $5k with the VA warranty? I just want the body, so perhaps the body is in teh $2k range? I'll ask Lance when I get the chance.
T
-
MSRP on the Mamiya 645 AFD II is US$3,499.00 for the camera body alone at B&H. I'd be happy if the camera body were in that price range. I don't think the market would bear much more than that absent some really spectacular improvements over the current body.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204569\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I guess I'm spoiled buying used. I bought an extra AFd for $450 and all of my AFd lenses for under $2,000. I think I really want an RZ Pro2D but I'd like to skip the Mamiya serial communications protocol and just use a one shot cable. Its the communications protocol that introduces the shutter lag. Its just slow slow. I notoced while checking out the AFd3/Phase cam that the delay is still there, but less noticable.
-
Great review as usual Michael!
One very minor point on MLU with the AFD-II, and not that it matters since the AFD-3 is totally different, but for posterity: if you set the AF to the rear thumb button (using CF functions) then you can have AF and MLU together without having to physically switch to manual focus for MLU.
-
We were told form the beginning that the "new" leaf shutter lens WOULD work on the AFDII..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204518\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Snook, I notice that you've been torturing yourself over the upcoming leaf shutter lenses, but really there is only one lens promised by the end of this year (just look at the record of on-time deliveries and make up your own mind about that). Could be 2010 by the time you have 3 or 4 leaf shutter lenses to choose from. If you can survive that long without them, maybe you don't need them after all. And if you do need them then perhaps you could consider swapping to another platform which works today. Just my $0.02. Or am I missing something?
-
I paid about $3450 (US) for my AFD III.
Bill
MSRP on the Mamiya 645 AFD II is US$3,499.00 for the camera body alone at B&H. I'd be happy if the camera body were in that price range. I don't think the market would bear much more than that absent some really spectacular improvements over the current body.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204569\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
TMARK
That's very interesting to hear about the RZ ProII versus RZ ProII D as far as the delay from the MSC protocol. I have been toying with the idea of an RZ for my Aptus. Whether or not to get the ProII D or just a ProII with a cable.
I would like to hear more from RZ users is there is a noticeable difference between the D version with MSC plate and a back just connected to the ProII body with cable.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204582\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think with the RZ the mirror clearing takes a LONG time, so the delay would probably only be noticed when shooting mirror up. I want to go with a plate because I have two RZ Pro2's and an RZ, a 50, 65m/la, 110, 150, 180 etc. An RZ used can be had for a few hundred. Amazing lenses, all synced up to 400. Buying a pro2d for $1500 seems wasteful.
-
I paid about $3450 (US) for my AFD III.
Bill
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204622\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks for the info. I really liked the camera when I tested it.
T
-
Is that $5k with the VA warranty? I just want the body, so perhaps the body is in teh $2k range? I'll ask Lance when I get the chance.
T
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204571\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes give Lance or Chris a call on that pricing just to be sure . I thought I saw 5k for the body and lens but not sure on the warranty period
-
I paid about $3450 (US) for my AFD III.
Bill
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204622\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Okay!---and now I'm happy.
-
We were told form the beginning that the "new" leaf shutter lens WOULD work on the AFDII..
Now it sounds as if they are going back on that..
The review clearly states that even on the new AFDIII they will have to be sent back to mamiya for firmware upgrade...?
What about the AFDII?
Thanks for any correction on this, if there is any...:+}
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204518\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi
I have been following this & I never heard anything about leaf shutters on the AFDII body. That was one reason for the AFDIII or new Phase body.
-
Hi
I have been following this & I never heard anything about leaf shutters on the AFDII body. That was one reason for the AFDIII or new Phase body.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204656\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yepp, as far as I can recall they've been clear on that fact right from the beginning, the leaf shutter lenses will NOT work on the AFDII.
-
Okay!---and now I'm happy.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204652\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The U.S. MAP price for the Mamiya 645 AFD III body is $4,409. Don't expect much, if any, discount from this price as the dealer margin is small. The price that billcb in Canada quoted is several hundred dollars below U.S. dealer cost.
-
Mamiya gear has always been seriously overpriced in the US compared with the rest of the world. Bill is in Canada.
Michael
-
Lance called me a little while ago and I asked him the prices . The new Phase One body and new 80mm D lens with 1 year warranty is 4999.00 with a three year warranty it will be 7999. Oop's this is US pricing
-
Mamiya gear has always been seriously overpriced in the US compared with the rest of the world. Bill is in Canada.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204665\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And I should perhaps add that at the time of purchase I also committed to buy the 45-90mm lens, so may I have got some "package" pricing. Both camera and lens were priced for cash only.
Bill
-
Hi
I have been following this & I never heard anything about leaf shutters on the AFDII body. That was one reason for the AFDIII or new Phase body.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204656\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Oh mcfoto it sure was talked about as I asked about it several times... because I have missed the leaf shutter since the film days as I have the 55/80/150 leafshutters for the 645 and had all the Pentax 6X7 leaf shutter also..
Since the days of digital I have wanted high syncing (w/Flash) but there there have not been many option except Hassleblad but never wanted to invest all in Hassleblad...
The first 1D had sycning at 500/th but then they went back to 250/th on the canons..:+{
I never used a 1D as it's quality was not up to par for my clients in that day when they were all scared of digital..:+}
In any case yes it was mentioned and I am not going to go dig through that huge post to find it...
I am sure again b/c I posted and got response more than once..:+}
Snook
-
Thanks Michael, I enjoyed reading your review, although I was left wondering a bit about some critical improvements. How was the AF? compared to the AFDII, and the competition. Was the selectable AF-points useful or useless? Has the shutter lag been dealt with? Maybe you could elaborate a little in this thread or update your review.
Cheers
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204435\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If I may respond as an 18 month user of the AFD II and a one day user of the AFD III, I find the AF marginally faster but no quieter - though that really isn't important to me.
The selectable points are quite close together but definitely worthwhile, tho' it's probably quicker to use AF lock and re-point the camera if you're working off-tripod.
Using the Phase back with Short Latency, I was never aware of serious shutter lag and I'm still not. I do have an impression, however, that it might be a bit more "prompt" now.
The real convenience, worth the price of admission to me, is that MLU no longer requires one to move to manual focus - a real time and frustration saver. I agree with Michael's concern about the mirror re-upping if you press the shutter release for too long, but I find that much less likely to happen with the electronic cable release.
I'll add to this in days ahead as I wring the body out!
Bill
-
If I may respond as an 18 month user of the AFD II and a one day user of the AFD III, I find the AF marginally faster but no quieter - though that really isn't important to me.
The selectable points are quite close together but definitely worthwhile, tho' it's probably quicker to use AF lock and re-point the camera if you're working off-tripod.
Using the Phase back with Short Latency, I was never aware of serious shutter lag and I'm still not. I do have an impression, however, that it might be a bit more "prompt" now.
The real convenience, worth the price of admission to me, is that MLU no longer requires one to move to manual focus - a real time and frustration saver. I agree with Michael's concern about the mirror re-upping if you press the shutter release for too long, but I find that much less likely to happen with the electronic cable release.
I'll add to this in days ahead as I wring the body out!
Bill
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204675\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
re the shutter lag: What do you shoot? I never notice it until I'm shooting fashion or portraits, and then I think about the Hy6 or even the H which fire MUCH faster that the AFD series. The AFd and AFdII have the same lag. The AFd3 seems better.
Thanks!
-
The new Phase One body and new 80mm D lens with 1 year warranty is 4999.00 with a three year warranty it will be 7999.
So you're saying this basically amounts to $3K for two years of additional warranty.
Is there some other value added component that was not mentioned in the above price?
Mark
-
Mamiya gear has always been seriously overpriced in the US compared with the rest of the world. Bill is in Canada.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204665\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well hear this, the camera and 80mm lens (not even film back) with one year warranty is $6650 in Sweden. Half the price if you buy it with a DB.
-
The new Phase One body and new 80mm D lens with 1 year warranty is 4999.00 with a three year warranty it will be 7999.
So you're saying this basically amounts to $3K for two years of additional warranty.
Is there some other value added component that was not mentioned in the above price?
Mark
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
(http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=204693\")
Mark,
There is an additional component to the 3 year Value Added Warranty. It is for 300,000 activations or 3 years and lists for $7990.00. The 1 year Classic Warranty is for 1 year or 100,000 activations and lists for $4990.00 like Guy has mentioned. If you have any more questions, please feel free to give Lance or I a call / e-mail.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year[/url]
877-217-9870 | National Atlanta/ Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
-
Thanks Chris for completing the activation part to the pricing. I am really looking forward to my body coming soon I hope. The AF, Mirror , sound and speed of it , I am looking forward too.
-
$3,000 for the additional warranty time just seems outrageous.
-
I'm trying to find out if it is possible for the new line of leaf shutter lenses to work on Mamiya AFDs and AFDIIs. Please be patient, because I know that it is summer and quite a few people are on vacation currently.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
-
$3,000 for the additional warranty time just seems outrageous.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204756\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It seems like a pretty good little camera, but $7,990 is a lot of money for even a good Mamiya 645.
If I was the dealer I'd hide that $3,000 warranty information way down the page, or better still if I was Phase I'd just throw in a 2 or 3 year warranty, after all you would expect any professional camera to be good for 3 years.
Even better, I'd just offer a second body for $3,000.
In fact if I was presented with these numbers my first question would be, will the camera not make it 3 years?
Even if you take it to the far extremes you can go on KEH and buy two H-1 kits with lenses for $3,700 each, that would pretty much solve the 3 year warranty issue and give you "the assistant dropped the camera" backup for less than the Mamiya and the warranty.
The only downside to this is I don't know if the H-1 firmware works with all the different lenses or backs and I don't really know how you can tell. I guess people more involved like a dealer will know this.
I think Phase and all of medium format needs to decide where they are going on pricing and better yet how they are perceived in the professional market.
Though the H-series camera is not my cup-o-tea, it is considered the standard in medium format, if only because it's been out for a long time and you can pretty much rent one in every world market, major or minor.
So to take this one step further, if your a digital tech, what do you buy to rent to your client's?... a camera that is considered standard, or the Mamiya that is new and still waiting on lenses.
If I was introducing any new camera, my very first priority would be to get these cameras and complete lenses in the rental departments of every major store possible, even if it meant discounting them.
Get them in people's hands so they have a real connection.
My second priority would to be to find away to get these cameras "sold" as quickly as possible, even if it means lowering the price, or defering the cost in some kind of finance plan. A $3,000 warranty would seem to have the opposite effect.
My third priority would be to line the dealers shelfs with these cameras and lenses to give the impression that my new camera is the "new" standard.
I own most if not all of my equipment, but a lot of photographers don't or if they do they own just one medium format camera and some kind of dslr backup, so on the day of their biggest project they have to make sure that thier purchase is compatible and available in rental.
This forum seems to be very technically oreinted towards gear and it seems to attract people that want the latest and newest, (or at least enjoy talking about the latest and newest) but in the real world of making photos for money there are a whole lot of good photographers that produce some amazing work with some less than cutting edge equipment.
To move these photographers to purchase, there has to be a motiivation of either better price, better availability, better use, or to make it a real lock, the product should cover all three of these points the day it's introduced.
In the 5 or 6 years I've shot digital and I've noticed we've gone through a change.
Early on it was a compromised medium, where we either put up with certain workarounds. Now we're into a period where digital is pretty much the standard so whatever is offered really has to be reliable, available and be a no excuse system.
I hope all of these cameras have success as it is a sign of a healthy industry.
JR
-
It seems like a pretty good little camera, but $7,990 is a lot of money for even a good Mamiya 645.
If I was the dealer I'd hide that $3,000 warranty information way down the page, or better still if I was Phase I'd just throw in a 2 or 3 year warranty, after all you would expect any professional camera to be good for 3 years.
Even better, I'd just offer a second body for $3,000.
In fact if I was presented with these numbers my first question would be, will the camera not make it 3 years?
Even if you take it to the far extremes you can go on KEH and buy two H-1 kits with lenses for $3,700 each, that would pretty much solve the 3 year warranty issue and give you "the assistant dropped the camera" backup for less than the Mamiya and the warranty.
The only downside to this is I don't know if the H-1 firmware works with all the different lenses or backs and I don't really know how you can tell. I guess people more involved like a dealer will know this.
I think Phase and all of medium format needs to decide where they are going on pricing and better yet how they are perceived in the professional market.
Though the H-series camera is not my cup-o-tea, it is considered the standard in medium format, if only because it's been out for a long time and you can pretty much rent one in every world market, major or minor.
So to take this one step further, if your a digital tech, what do you buy to rent to your client's?... a camera that is considered standard, or the Mamiya that is new and still waiting on lenses.
If I was introducing any new camera, my very first priority would be to get these cameras and complete lenses in the rental departments of every major store possible, even if it meant discounting them.
Get them in people's hands so they have a real connection.
My second priority would to be to find away to get these cameras "sold" as quickly as possible, even if it means lowering the price, or defering the cost in some kind of finance plan. A $3,000 warranty would seem to have the opposite effect.
My third priority would be to line the dealers shelfs with these cameras and lenses to give the impression that my new camera is the "new" standard.
I own most if not all of my equipment, but a lot of photographers don't or if they do they own just one medium format camera and some kind of dslr backup, so on the day of their biggest project they have to make sure that thier purchase is compatible and available in rental.
This forum seems to be very technically oreinted towards gear and it seems to attract people that want the latest and newest, (or at least enjoy talking about the latest and newest) but in the real world of making photos for money there are a whole lot of good photographers that produce some amazing work with some less than cutting edge equipment.
To move these photographers to purchase, there has to be a motiivation of either better price, better availability, better use, or to make it a real lock, the product should cover all three of these points the day it's introduced.
In the 5 or 6 years I've shot digital and I've noticed we've gone through a change.
Early on it was a compromised medium, where we either put up with certain workarounds. Now we're into a period where digital is pretty much the standard so whatever is offered really has to be reliable, available and be a no excuse system.
I hope all of these cameras have success as it is a sign of a healthy industry.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204784\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I know the price does sound high on that 3 year but not speaking for Phase here and my bet is this really has to do with there value added warranty with there kits when you buy a back which offers other benefits like switching a mount on the back for free. Kind of saying buy a back with it but if you just want the body than here is what we have to offer because it ties in with there packaging. Phase one gets this body first from Mamiya from what i understand but when Mamiya releases it under there name my bet that 3 year warranty will not be part of it and just be like any other camera in the market place. To me this is just how they have to market it because of the whole kit idea.
-
Guy,
Sinar has a standard 3-year warranty, without any additional cost, with any camera, included the Sinar Hy6, with any digital back, and with any lens or other accessory, worldwide.
Best regards,
Thierry
Phase one gets this body first from Mamiya from what i understand but when Mamiya releases it under there name my bet that 3 year warranty will not be part of it and just be like any other camera in the market place.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204789\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Thierry it is most likely built into the price of the back to begin with. Different companies handle these warranties in different ways. If Sinar wanted to offer a 1 year warranty would they not structure the price accordingly. Of course they would. OEM"s will market different and warranties will fall under that marketing blanket.
-
When will AFDII prices go down?
-
If Phase and Mamiya think they will up-price the body and lenses by means of a paint job they are making a serious mistake. You don't turn a Volkswagen into a Mercedes by moving a couple of knobs around on the dashboard.
The new pricing is unjustified. I own a P45+ and Mamiya combo, the camera works ok mostly (damages about one of 20 shots) but is clearly what you'd call a "value proposition" for people who want MF quality at the lowest possible price point with no frills. $200 or $300 used lenses can be found all over the place, some AF and most MF.
I'd say that with Phase/Mamiya rasing prices and Hassy lowering theirs, and with Hassy improving both their backs and their software, any advantages of Mamiya as a value proposition are quickly being erased. The screen on the back of the Hassy will probably seal the deal for any doubters.
There is an argument to be made for Mamiya in fashion - the lenses have a nice soft look - but it cuts the other way for landscape. I do much prefer the Mamiya viewfinder to that of the Hassy.
Edmund
-
Nope, you are wrong here Guy: it makes no sense, on a price level, to offer only 1 year of warranty and then reduce the price: what you "spare" is ridiculous, believe me.
It has always been Sinar's tradition to offer from the beginning such a warranty, as well as giving a guaranty of at least 10 years of servicing and repairs on all the Sinar products, including digital backs.
I find it somehow strange that one gets almost criticized to do so, almost making it sound like a marketing hype or making suggestions, in opposition to other approaches offering a standard 1 year warranty. I am sorry to say it, but US 3'000.- for 2 years extension seems the wrong approach to me, not the opposite. You may want to check this on different prices of different kits and systems, from the different manufacturers, but it won't give you the answer, respectively you won't be able to jump to such a conclusion by doing so, since you would need to know the export prices to do so precisely.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry it is most likely built into the price of the back to begin with. Different companies handle these warranties in different ways. If Sinar wanted to offer a 1 year warranty would they not structure the price accordingly. Of course they would. OEM"s will market different and warranties will fall under that marketing blanket.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204821\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
If Phase and Mamiya think they will up-price the body and lenses by means of a paint job they are making a serious mistake. You don't turn a Volkswagen into a Mercedes by moving a couple of knobs around on the dashboard.
The new pricing is unjustified. I own a P45+ and Mamiya combo, the camera works ok mostly (damages about one of 20 shots) but is clearly what you'd call a "value proposition" for people who want MF quality at the lowest possible price point with no frills. $200 or $300 used lenses can be found all over the place, some AF and most MF.
I'd say that with Phase/Mamiya rasing prices and Hassy lowering theirs, and with Hassy improving both their backs and their software, any advantages of Mamiya as a value proposition are quickly being erased. The screen on the back of the Hassy will probably seal the deal for any doubters.
There is an argument to be made for Mamiya in fashion - the lenses have a nice soft look - but it cuts the other way for landscape. I do much prefer the Mamiya viewfinder to that of the Hassy.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204855\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree with you mostly. I think having a camera that is as expensive as the Hy6 but not as good is a mistake. I also think running head on against Hasselblad's integrated solution and marketing machine with a camera that is more expensive than the equivelent blad is a mistake. The brand value just isn't there, although I think the quality is. I know that real prices people are paying are different, but because there is no transperancy in the MFDB world a half educated buyer sees that the Phase is more or less = to the blad, likes the blad's screen, the sync speed, the one battery, the one on/off switch, hyper focus etc. I suspect that the AFD3/Phase cam is a few years old. I suspect the next camera will be an all new deal, and may well be on par with the Hy6. That camera might be worth the $5k - $8k.
A question: What do you mean by "damaging shots"?
On Mamiya quality: The new one is really really tight like a dslr but not as fast. Looks and feels durable. AF is accurate and reasonably fast. My AFds feels old and worn, a little loose, but they still work and work (mostly) flawlessly.
Lenses: I think Edmund is wrong in his assessment of the Mamiya lenses for fashion and their comparison to H lenses. I find the 80mm 2.8 too sharp and contrasty for digital fashion/portrait/catalogue. The 150mm is also a little too sharp. The 55mm is the best lens they make, in my opinion, and on my P30+ is the normal lens. The 45mm is smoother and only sharp after F4, but it shines as a wide portrait and fashion lens.
As to the comparison to H lenses, well, the main difference is that most of the H lenses look better (read: sharper) wide open than their Mamiya counter parts. They do look different, as the H lenses seem to try and replicate the microcontrast and hard contrast of CZ lenses, of which I'm not a huge fan. Other Fujinon lenses are softer and have much better rendering for faces. The H 100 2.2 is a great lens. My favorite Mamiya lens is an 80 1.9 c lens, scratched and old. It is magic, so creamy.
That being said, I LOVE my P30+. I would say the results are in between drum scanned 6x7 and drum scanned 4x5, and yes with mamiya 645 lenses. I like the FP shutter. I use 1/4000 FAR more than I need to sync over 1/125. The new Phamiya is a step forward, and if you get it in a kit for a few grand or "free" its a great value. I know this. But the newbies who post to this forum every other day don't know anything other than the H3D2-31 has a big screen, is integrated like a DSLR, has a big viewfinder etc and is cheaper than the list price for a Phase Phamiya Cam and P30+, and the lenses are expensive, new.
-
$3,000 for the additional warranty time just seems outrageous.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204756\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
When you stop to consider the economics here, the price is definitely unreasonable, but not surprising. If something goes wrong with the camera that Phase sells, who is going to fix it? Phase? No way, they don't make cameras or fix them. They have to return the camera to Mamiya and pay Mamiya to fix it, parts and labor and a profit margin thereon. Then, Phase has to factor its own costs into the equation. And Phase has no experience with the warranty track record of the AFDIII. They don't even have a warranty track record with the AFDII. So, they have to be fairly careful with how they price the extended warranty, because Mamiya is probably only giving Phase a one year warranty on the cameras it buys from Mamiya.
BTW, isn't the 3 year warranty on Phase backs an extra $3,000?
-
Lenses: I think Edmund is wrong in his assessment of the Mamiya lenses for fashion and their comparison to H lenses. I find the 80mm 2.8 too sharp and contrasty for digital fashion/portrait/catalogue. The 150mm is also a little too sharp. The 55mm is the best lens they make, in my opinion, and on my P30+ is the normal lens. The 45mm is smoother and only sharp after F4, but it shines as a wide portrait and fashion lens.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204860\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I find the big problem to be the non-circular aperture on the 80 which leaves hard-edged flare marks over my best images. I think I see a Sinar in my future - or maybe just a Contax
Edmund
-
Edmund, you must have a really poor set of Mamiya glass, or more likely a defective body or back not in alignment.
I also shoot a P45+ on a Mamiya and have none of the issues you have. Moreover my experience mirrors TMark's as respects the 45, 55, 80 and 150. I can only add that the 210 is a laser even wide open, being almost brutal on skin. The 35 may leave a little bit to be desired, never as good as the 55 and soft-ish corners, but even using that lens for landscape I get very nice, sharp appearing prints...
Cheers,
-
Nope, you are wrong here Guy: it makes no sense, on a price level, to offer only 1 year of warranty and then reduce the price: what you "spare" is ridiculous, believe me.
It has always been Sinar's tradition to offer from the beginning such a warranty, as well as giving a guaranty of at least 10 years of servicing and repairs on all the Sinar products, including digital backs.
I find it somehow strange that one gets almost criticized to do so, almost making it sound like a marketing hype or making suggestions, in opposition to other approaches offering a standard 1 year warranty. I am sorry to say it, but US 3'000.- for 2 years extension seems the wrong approach to me, not the opposite. You may want to check this on different prices of different kits and systems, from the different manufacturers, but it won't give you the answer, respectively you won't be able to jump to such a conclusion by doing so, since you would need to know the export prices to do so precisely.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204858\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm sorry I don't believe for a second a company does not factor in the cost of a three year warranty in there pricing. BMW does it and everyone that includes long warranties does it in there product line. They would be nuts not to. If Sinar does not factor in the warranty in there overall pricing than i am surprised, they should.
-
I'm sorry I don't believe for a second a company does not factor in the cost of a three year warranty in there pricing. BMW does it and everyone that includes long warranties does it in there product line. They would be nuts not to. If Sinar does not factor in the warranty in there overall pricing than i am surprised, they should.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204871\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Since we have dealers, reps and people that have deep brand interrest, let me ask a question.
If someone was coming fresh into medium format and wanted to buy a back, camera and lenses, how much?
Let's do it this way.
Leaf P30+, Phamiya body, 35mm, 45 or 50mm, 80mm, 150mm how much?
1 year warranty_______________
3 years warranty______________
Aptus 65, AFI body, 40mm, 50mm, 80mm, 150mm (all the latest lenses), How much?
1 year warranty________________
3 years warranty________________
Sinar has to be 22mpx as there is no 31mpx, hy6 body, 40mm, 50mm, 80mm, 150mm (all the latest lenses), How much?
3 year warranty_________________
Hasselblad Hd3- 1mpx (I think that's right), 35mm, 50mm, 80mm 150 How much?
1 year warranty______________
3 year warranty______________
All U.S. prices.
________________________________________________________________________
Now one other question.
Phase V4 pro , when will it be released in full and will it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.
LC11, will it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.
Sinar Capture Shop (I think that's what it's called) is it released in full and will it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.
Phocus, when will it be released in full and it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.
This would give everybody a very good idea of what the price difference is between the systems and the effective use with their current computers.
_________________________________________________________________________
Now one more question, how long for delivery for all the above.
JR
-
If Phase and Mamiya think they will up-price the body and lenses by means of a paint job they are making a serious mistake. You don't turn a Volkswagen into a Mercedes by moving a couple of knobs around on the dashboard.
The new pricing is unjustified. I own a P45+ and Mamiya combo, the camera works ok mostly (damages about one of 20 shots) but is clearly what you'd call a "value proposition" for people who want MF quality at the lowest possible price point with no frills. $200 or $300 used lenses can be found all over the place, some AF and most MF.
I'd say that with Phase/Mamiya rasing prices and Hassy lowering theirs, and with Hassy improving both their backs and their software, any advantages of Mamiya as a value proposition are quickly being erased. The screen on the back of the Hassy will probably seal the deal for any doubters.
There is an argument to be made for Mamiya in fashion - the lenses have a nice soft look - but it cuts the other way for landscape. I do much prefer the Mamiya viewfinder to that of the Hassy.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204855\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sorry, but you're really way off the mark here eronald. Mamiya is in no way a "volkswagen", they have a reputation among pros for making high quality rock solid gear that just works and works, and this is my own experience too. As for the glass almost all are tack sharp and have a great color and contrast rendition, my 80mm is no exception there. No offense but you seem to have a lot of "unique" problems with a whole lot of your gear, and like to make blanket statements based on it.
-
Guy,
Please don't distort what I have written: I did say nowhere that we don't calculate the costs of warranty and integrated them in a way or another. Of course we do.
What I was saying is that it makes absolutely no financial sense (for us and the customer) to offer a 1-year warranty instead of our standard 3-year and reduce the price consequently. Consequently meaning here US 3'000.-
The "saved" money by doing so is FAR LESS and would be of no benefit for the enduser.
it happens that this was exactly a proposal I made myself a few years back. Very precise calculations have then been made and the conclusion was the one you have read in my previous post, that it makes absolutely no sense.
This concerns Sinar and I don't pretend to speak for others.
Best regards,
Thierry
I'm sorry I don't believe for a second a company does not factor in the cost of a three year warranty in there pricing. BMW does it and everyone that includes long warranties does it in there product line. They would be nuts not to. If Sinar does not factor in the warranty in there overall pricing than i am surprised, they should.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204871\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Since we have dealers, reps and people that have deep brand interrest, let me ask a question.
If someone was coming fresh into medium format and wanted to buy a back, camera and lenses, how much?
Let's do it this way.
Leaf P30+, Phamiya body, 35mm, 45 or 50mm, 80mm, 150mm how much?
1 year warranty_______________
3 years warranty______________
Aptus 65, AFI body, 40mm, 50mm, 80mm, 150mm (all the latest lenses), How much?
1 year warranty________________
3 years warranty________________
Sinar has to be 22mpx as there is no 31mpx, hy6 body, 40mm, 50mm, 80mm, 150mm (all the latest lenses), How much?
3 year warranty_________________
Hasselblad Hd3- 1mpx (I think that's right), 35mm, 50mm, 80mm 150 How much?
1 year warranty______________
3 year warranty______________
All U.S. prices.
________________________________________________________________________
Now one other question.
Phase V4 pro , when will it be released in full and will it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.
LC11, will it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.
Sinar Capture Shop (I think that's what it's called) is it released in full and will it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.
Phocus, when will it be released in full and it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.
This would give everybody a very good idea of what the price difference is between the systems and the effective use with their current computers.
_________________________________________________________________________
Now one more question, how long for delivery for all the above.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204877\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This would be very interesting to see stright up.. good idea..
The problem, I think, is you never really get the final price with a lot of the dealers..
They can drop quite a bit from the "retail" price... but that should not vary more than a couple thousand here or there.
Some one please post all these options , would be great to see.
Snook
-
Is this worth $ 3000?
Permit my comments on the "Value Added Warranty Kit".
* 3-Year Replacement Loaner International Warranty. Nice but free with Sinar
* 3-Year Free Platform Swap Guarantee. Great because after buying my brand new PhaseOne camera I could change my mind and switch to... ?
* Metallic Case. The pelican case is more than good.
* Capture One Pro. Just for 35mm compatibility?
* Dual-Bay battery charger (Included with standard warranty)
* Two 2500 mAh batteries (Included with standard warranty)
* Viewfinder masks (5 pcs) (Included with standard warranty)
* 4.5m Firewire Cable (Included with standard warranty)
* DigiClean kit (Included with standard warranty)
* SanDisk 2-gig Extreme IV CF card (Inexpensive)
* SanDisk Firewire 800 card reader (Inexpensive)
* Multiconnector sync cable.
* Multiconnector > Minijack adapter cable
* Manual hard-copy
* LCC calibration kit.
* 5 pcs QP greycard.
* Microfiber cloth.
...
-
Edmund, you must have a really poor set of Mamiya glass, or more likely a defective body or back not in alignment.
I also shoot a P45+ on a Mamiya and have none of the issues you have. Moreover my experience mirrors TMark's as respects the 45, 55, 80 and 150. I can only add that the 210 is a laser even wide open, being almost brutal on skin. The 35 may leave a little bit to be desired, never as good as the 55 and soft-ish corners, but even using that lens for landscape I get very nice, sharp appearing prints...
Cheers,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204869\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree. I've owned Hassy and Rollei 6008 glass and the new Mamiya lenses need take a back seat to no-one. The 75-150 and the 12O "'D" are razors. I can't wait for my 45-90 due, I'm told, in August.
Bill
-
Hi
I don't see the big deal about what Phase One is offering. For an extra two years you pay $3000.00 & its your choice. I would rather put that money into a 2nd body or buy an AFDII + a lens on eBay for that price. You can get an AFDII body on eBay for $2100.00 USD. To me a 2nd body is the best backup you can have on a shoot.
Denis
-
I agree it is a choice , I did not buy it and put the money elsewhere. I like choices and options to fill my needs. The savings pretty much bought all my lenses used and honestly I am a lens whore , these do not take a back seat to anything I have seen in MF so far and if there is a difference it is pretty slight.
-
Re the extended warranty, I agree it's nice to have the option. I did not buy it either for the simple reason I will likely upgrade within the year and would rather put the money toward the upgrade
-
Since we have dealers, reps and people that have deep brand interrest, let me ask a question.
If someone was coming fresh into medium format and wanted to buy a back, camera and lenses, how much?
Let's do it this way.
Leaf P30+, Phamiya body, 35mm, 45 or 50mm, 80mm, 150mm how much?
1 year warranty_______________
3 years warranty______________
Aptus 65, AFI body, 40mm, 50mm, 80mm, 150mm (all the latest lenses), How much?
1 year warranty________________
3 years warranty________________
Sinar has to be 22mpx as there is no 31mpx, hy6 body, 40mm, 50mm, 80mm, 150mm (all the latest lenses), How much?
3 year warranty_________________
Hasselblad Hd3- 1mpx (I think that's right), 35mm, 50mm, 80mm 150 How much?
1 year warranty______________
3 year warranty______________
All U.S. prices.
________________________________________________________________________
Now one other question.
Phase V4 pro , when will it be released in full and will it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.
LC11, will it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.
Sinar Capture Shop (I think that's what it's called) is it released in full and will it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.
Phocus, when will it be released in full and it run on the latest 24" I-mac effectively.
This would give everybody a very good idea of what the price difference is between the systems and the effective use with their current computers.
_________________________________________________________________________
Now one more question, how long for delivery for all the above.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204877\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I third this request, please post price/details here
-
I've lurked here a long time - as I someday hope to own a medium format system - for now I make do with what I have and learn what I can. With a little internet searching you can find list pricing info.
Phaseone System USA List Pricing
Source: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/)
Mamiya 645 35mm Lens - $1379
Mamiya 645 45mm Lens - $1099
Mamiya 645 55mm Lens - $989
Mamiya 645 80mm Lens (included w/ camera) n/a
Mamiya 645 150mm Lens - $1189
Total for Lenses - $4656
Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 1 year warranty - $22490
Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 3 year warranty - $26990
Total for Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 1 year warranty - with lenses - $27146
Total for Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 3 year warranty - with lenses - $31646
Leaf System USA List Pricing
Source: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/) and http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4433...er_Angulon.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4433...er_Angulon.html)
40mm - $5549
50mm - $5150
80mm - $3100
180mm - $6920
Total for Lenses - $20719
Leaf AFi 6 Camera Kit with Waist Level Finder and Aptus 65S Digital Back (doesn't spec warrenty length) - $25995
Leaf AFi 6 Camera Kit with lenses - $46714
Sinar System USA List Pricing
Sources: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/) , [url=http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/prodtech/news...t_id=1003584386][a href=\"http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/prodtech/news...t_id=1003584386\" target=\"_blank\"]http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/prodtech/news...t_id=1003584386 (http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/prodtech/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003584386)[/url][/a] and http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4433...er_Angulon.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4433...er_Angulon.html)
40mm - $5549
50mm - $5150
80mm - $3100
180mm - $6920
Total for Lenses - $20719
Sinar Hy6/Sinarback emotion 54LV - 3 year warrenty - $30500
Sinar Hy6/Sinarback emotion 54LV - 3 year warrenty - with lenses - $51219
Hasselblad Sysyem USA List Pricing
Source: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/)
35mm - $3440
50mm - $3155
80mm (included with camera) n/a
150mm - $3100
Total for Lenses - $9695
Hasselblad Hasselblad H3DII-31 with 80mm Lens (doesn't spec warrenty length) - (pricing reflects a current promotional discount of $9000) - $17995
Hasselblad Hasselblad H3DII-31 with lenses - $27690
Edited to add Sinar/Leaf 40mm pricing (thanks to Paul Jones' reply)
-
I've lurked here a long time - as I someday hope to own a medium format system - for now I make do with what I have and learn what I can. With a little internet searching you can find list pricing info.
Phaseone System USA List Pricing
Source: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/)
Mamiya 645 35mm Lens - $1379
Mamiya 645 45mm Lens - $1099
Mamiya 645 55mm Lens - $989
Mamiya 645 80mm Lens (included w/ camera) n/a
Mamiya 645 150mm Lens - $1189
Total for Lenses - $4656
Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 1 year warranty - $22490
Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 3 year warranty - $26990
Total for Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 1 year warranty - with lenses - $27146
Total for Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 3 year warranty - with lenses - $31646
Leaf System USA List Pricing
Source: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/)
40mm (couldn't find pricing)
50mm - $5150
80mm - $3100
180mm - $6920
Total for Lenses - $15170
Leaf AFi 6 Camera Kit with Waist Level Finder and Aptus 65S Digital Back (doesn't spec warrenty length) - $25995
Leaf AFi 6 Camera Kit with lenses - $41165
Sinar System USA List Pricing
Sources: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/) and http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/prodtech/news...t_id=1003584386 (http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/prodtech/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003584386)
40mm (couldn't find pricing)
50mm - $5150
80mm - $3100
180mm - $6920
Total for Lenses - $15170
Sinar Hy6/Sinarback emotion 54LV - 3 year warrenty - $30500
Sinar Hy6/Sinarback emotion 54LV - 3 year warrenty - with lenses - $45670
Hasselblad Sysyem USA List Pricing
Source: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/)
35mm - $3440
50mm - $3155
80mm (included with camera) n/a
150mm - $3100
Total for Lenses - $9695
Hasselblad Hasselblad H3DII-31 with 80mm Lens (doesn't spec warrenty length) - (pricing reflects a current promotional discount of $9000) - $17995
Hasselblad Hasselblad H3DII-31 with lenses - $27690
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205043\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Those Mamiya Lens are going to be the same if not a lot more than the other guys lens for sure..
Too some it may not matter but the price package will go up when the new lens will be out.
That is the Total package price with the newer "D" lens and "Leafshutter"lens that they have mentioned.
Maybe be better to put the new 28mm lens from mamiya which is quite spendy instead of the older style Lens 35mm?
Snook
-
Thanks Michael, I enjoyed reading your review
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204435\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I also enjoyed the review, just as I have enjoyed much of what Michael has had to say for the last several years. However, the last few years he has become much less technical in his reviews. This certainly is easier for him and it still gives his readers a sense of his experience, but at times I find it frustrating.
For example, in this particular review of the Phase One 645 Camera in the third from the last paragraph he writes a provocative statement:
"...large studio centers who switched from medium format to DSLRs a while back are now switching to MF digital again, simply because of the superior image quality which it can produce. It's not just about megapixels, because in many cases these studios are producing images that will never end up being larger than a catalog or magazine page in size. It's about image quality, pure and simple."
If the image quality is better, it should be measurably better. But no measurements are mentioned. I really question if this is (as he says) "pure and simple."
In fact, it seems from reading these forums that the issue is anything but simple and there are many who have different opinions about the merits of MF digital backs compared to 35 DSLRs.
Maybe instead of calling this a "Review" he should call it an "Impression"
-
I've lurked here a long time - as I someday hope to own a medium format system - for now I make do with what I have and learn what I can. With a little internet searching you can find list pricing info.
Phaseone System USA List Pricing
Source: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/)
Mamiya 645 35mm Lens - $1379
Mamiya 645 45mm Lens - $1099
Mamiya 645 55mm Lens - $989
Mamiya 645 80mm Lens (included w/ camera) n/a
Mamiya 645 150mm Lens - $1189
Total for Lenses - $4656
Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 1 year warranty - $22490
Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 3 year warranty - $26990
Total for Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 1 year warranty - with lenses - $27146
Total for Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 3 year warranty - with lenses - $31646
Leaf System USA List Pricing
Source: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/)
40mm (couldn't find pricing)
50mm - $5150
80mm - $3100
180mm - $6920
Total for Lenses - $15170
Leaf AFi 6 Camera Kit with Waist Level Finder and Aptus 65S Digital Back (doesn't spec warrenty length) - $25995
Leaf AFi 6 Camera Kit with lenses - $41165
Sinar System USA List Pricing
Sources: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/) and http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/prodtech/news...t_id=1003584386 (http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/prodtech/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003584386)
40mm (couldn't find pricing)
50mm - $5150
80mm - $3100
180mm - $6920
Total for Lenses - $15170
Sinar Hy6/Sinarback emotion 54LV - 3 year warrenty - $30500
Sinar Hy6/Sinarback emotion 54LV - 3 year warrenty - with lenses - $45670
Hasselblad Sysyem USA List Pricing
Source: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/)
35mm - $3440
50mm - $3155
80mm (included with camera) n/a
150mm - $3100
Total for Lenses - $9695
Hasselblad Hasselblad H3DII-31 with 80mm Lens (doesn't spec warrenty length) - (pricing reflects a current promotional discount of $9000) - $17995
Hasselblad Hasselblad H3DII-31 with lenses - $27690
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205043\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Neil,
Thank you for doing this.
If this was a standalone thread or blog titled all medium format price comparisions, it probably would be linked to 400 blogs, because this is the first time I've seen any of these prices compared almost apples-to-apples.
Yes with the new Mamiya lenses the prices probably will go up, and/or I sure some people will have issue that the Mamiya doesn't have a range of leaf shutter lenses compared to the Hy6 and the Hasselblad, but neither of those go to 4000th of a second shutter so what might be a deal breaker for some, is a positive for another photographer.
Same with the ability to put on different lenses of different makes, or even used legacy lenses.
Still, I was just thinking of the guy/girl that walks into a store and says I need a wide angle, a semi wide, a normal and a medium telephoto. How much?
What most surprises me is how quiet the dealers and reps have been on this. I would have thought they'd been all over this , especially about the software.
I get e-mails all the time about what camera to buy and usually it's from people coming from a Canon that want to improve their image quality, (wahtever that means) and so much of the conversation really comes down to price dependent, and for professionals workflow, reliability and speed of repairs.
I would really love to see this expanded to software, release dates, processing times, compatibility with other 3rd part software and which I think is very important what computers these softwares run best on, or even require to run at all.
Anyway, thank you.
JR
-
I've lurked here a long time - as I someday hope to own a medium format system - for now I make do with what I have and learn what I can. With a little internet searching you can find list pricing info.
Phaseone System USA List Pricing
Source: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/)
Mamiya 645 35mm Lens - $1379
Mamiya 645 45mm Lens - $1099
Mamiya 645 55mm Lens - $989
Mamiya 645 80mm Lens (included w/ camera) n/a
Mamiya 645 150mm Lens - $1189
Total for Lenses - $4656
Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 1 year warranty - $22490
Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 3 year warranty - $26990
Total for Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 1 year warranty - with lenses - $27146
Total for Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 3 year warranty - with lenses - $31646
Leaf System USA List Pricing
Source: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/)
40mm (couldn't find pricing)
50mm - $5150
80mm - $3100
180mm - $6920
Total for Lenses - $15170
Leaf AFi 6 Camera Kit with Waist Level Finder and Aptus 65S Digital Back (doesn't spec warrenty length) - $25995
Leaf AFi 6 Camera Kit with lenses - $41165
Sinar System USA List Pricing
Sources: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/) and http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/prodtech/news...t_id=1003584386 (http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/prodtech/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003584386)
40mm (couldn't find pricing)
50mm - $5150
80mm - $3100
180mm - $6920
Total for Lenses - $15170
Sinar Hy6/Sinarback emotion 54LV - 3 year warrenty - $30500
Sinar Hy6/Sinarback emotion 54LV - 3 year warrenty - with lenses - $45670
Hasselblad Sysyem USA List Pricing
Source: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/)
35mm - $3440
50mm - $3155
80mm (included with camera) n/a
150mm - $3100
Total for Lenses - $9695
Hasselblad Hasselblad H3DII-31 with 80mm Lens (doesn't spec warrenty length) - (pricing reflects a current promotional discount of $9000) - $17995
Hasselblad Hasselblad H3DII-31 with lenses - $27690
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=205043\")
here is the rollei 40mm you are missing (i think- im not a rollei expert)-
[a href=\"http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/44334-USA/Rollei_66119_40mm_f_3_5_Super_Angulon.html]http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4433...er_Angulon.html[/url]
$5549 usd
paul
-
Neil,
Thank you for doing this.
If this was a standalone thread or blog titled all medium format price comparisions, it probably would be linked to 400 blogs, because this is the first time I've seen any of these prices compared almost apples-to-apples.
Yes with the new Mamiya lenses the prices probably will go up, and/or I sure some people will have issue that the Mamiya doesn't have a range of leaf shutter lenses compared to the Hy6 and the Hasselblad, but neither of those go to 4000th of a second shutter so what might be a deal breaker for some, is a positive for another photographer.
Same with the ability to put on different lenses of different makes, or even used legacy lenses.
Still, I was just thinking of the guy/girl that walks into a store and says I need a wide angle, a semi wide, a normal and a medium telephoto. How much?
What most surprises me is how quiet the dealers and reps have been on this. I would have thought they'd been all over this , especially about the software.
I get e-mails all the time about what camera to buy and usually it's from people coming from a Canon that want to improve their image quality, (wahtever that means) and so much of the conversation really comes down to price dependent, and for professionals workflow, reliability and speed of repairs.
I would really love to see this expanded to software, release dates, processing times, compatibility with other 3rd part software and which I think is very important what computers these softwares run best on, or even require to run at all.
Anyway, thank you.
JR
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=205077\")
Well, I am not really ready for prime time, but I have been working on a PPR Digital website for a while now (in my spare time, which gives you an idea of how much time I have), and it is still unfinished in terms of design elements, etc, but the rough sketch is mostly agreed upon. It will be accessible through PPR's main site when it is completed.
While I have always provided a website link, I've never been happy about the link I was leaving, and so that is why I have taken matters into my own hands. My hope is to have many aspects of medium/large format digital presented in an informational manner. There will be a technical support page, software download page, up to date read-me's, etc.
For now, the pricing content is mostly complete. The links at the top are active for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar, but none of the other links are active. And please remember, this is a very rough sketch of an incomplete product.
[a href=\"http://web.mac.com/hendrixppr/PPR_Digital_Pricing/Hasselblad_Pricing.html]http://web.mac.com/hendrixppr/PPR_Digital_...ad_Pricing.html[/url]
Steve Hendrix/PPR
Dealer
-
Recommended list price for the Sinar Hy6-eMotion 54 LV is US$ 28'130.-
Total recommended prices with new Schneider AFD lenses (50/80/180) and Schneider super-Angulon 3.5/40mm HFT-PQ is US$ 49'825.-, as per June 01st '08.
And as per July 01st '08, the new recommended list price of this same Sinar Hy6 - eMotion 54LV is US$ 22'550.-
The package with the same above lenses being thus US$ 44'245.- (3-Year Warranty).
Remark: the Dalsa 22 MPx sensor can't be compared with a 31 MPx or 28 MPx sensor, neither from the price nor from the limitations.
Best regards,
Thierry
Sinar System USA List Pricing
Sources: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/) , <a href='http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/prodtech/news...t_id=1003584386' target='_blank'>http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/prodtech/news...t_id=1003584386 (http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/prodtech/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003584386)</a> and http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4433...er_Angulon.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4433...er_Angulon.html)
40mm - $5549
50mm - $5150
80mm - $3100
180mm - $6920
Total for Lenses - $20719
Sinar Hy6/Sinarback emotion 54LV - 3 year warrenty - $30500
Sinar Hy6/Sinarback emotion 54LV - 3 year warrenty - with lenses - $51219
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205043\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Recommended list price for the Sinar Hy6-eMotion 54 LV is US$ 28'130.-
Total recommended prices with new Schneider AFD lenses (50/80/180) and Schneider super-Angulon 3.5/40mm HFT-PQ is US$ 49'825.-, as per June 01st '08.
And as per July 01st '08, the new recommended list price of this same Sinar Hy6 - eMotion 54LV is US$ 22'550.-
The package with the same above lenses being thus US$ 44'245.- (3-Year Warranty).
Remark: the Dalsa 22 MPx sensor can't be compared with a 31 MPx or 28 MPx sensor, neither from the price nor from the limitations.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205243\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry:
US dealers have not received any type of pricing information yet that reflect the changes you've detailed. Is the $22,550 price for the 54LV, not the LVr? In other words is this price for the non-revolving kit or the revolving package?
Thanks,
Steve Hendrix/PPR Dealer
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
-
hi Steve,
Yes, I can imagine that you did not yet receive these new prices: the information has been given to our distributors 3 days ago.
The price indicated is for the Sinar Hy6 - eMotion 54LV ---> non-revolving
The Sinar Hy6 - eMotion 54LVr recommended price has been dropped as well, as per July 01st = US$ 23,900.-
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry:
US dealers have not received any type of pricing information yet that reflect the changes you've detailed. Is the $22,550 price for the 54LV, not the LVr? In other words is this price for the non-revolving kit or the revolving package?
Thanks,
Steve Hendrix/PPR Dealer
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205245\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Remark: the Dalsa 22 MPx sensor can't be compared with a 31 MPx or 28 MPx sensor, neither from the price nor from the limitations.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205243\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry,
When I made that list I just wanted to see a comparision of the middle of the range backs and cameras, not the very top end.
I thought a comparision with the top end backs pricing would be too scary.
From a sinar standpoint it's almost impossible to compare exactly with the other makes, because you guys offer less variety in sensor sizes than the rest of the makers.
Your right about the 22mp dalsa chip, it's different than the 31mpx kodak and I've owned both.
For the nice look of the dalsa, which can be very nice under certain conditions, and the size which helps with certain lenses, it also has it's limitations, iso being one of them.
JR
-
A really nice idea would be a chip with the same pixel density as the Dalsa, but with the ISO the current tech allows. Should be much better than the P30+.
Edmund
Thierry,
For the nice look of the dalsa, which can be very nice under certain conditions, and the size which helps with certain lenses, it also has it's limitations, iso being one of them.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205260\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Neil,
Thank you for doing this.
I would really love to see this expanded to software, release dates, processing times, compatibility with other 3rd part software and which I think is very important what computers these softwares run best on, or even require to run at all.
Anyway, thank you.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205077\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
James: I believe that there is another extremely important "feature" of these packages that should be included in any comparison, and that is the actual terms oft he warranties. What is included in the "basic" one year warranty? In particular, is it a "hot swap" warranty that provides for a 24 hour guaranteed loaner if your back goes down? How about the extended three year warranty?
I personally would not buy a back without an extended hot swap warranty. I was also favorably disposed to an H3D because both the camera and the back are Hasselblad. If there is a problem, nobody points a finger and says it's the other guy's problem. You call your Hasselblad dealer and, at least if its Steve Hendrix, you get a loaner from Hasselblad with next day delivery. For you, as a professional, a second back and body can be justified, and may be a necessity. Very difficult for most of us to afford it or be able to justify.
-
Here is the difference for Phase backs
Classic 1-Year Warranty or Value-Added 3-Year Warranty?
Phase One offers two types of warranties on its digital backs. The Classic 1-Year Warranty provides parts/service coverage for 1 year. The Value-Added 3-Year Warranty extends this warranty an additional two years, and adds extra accessories, and a replacement-unit program.
Classic Warranty Kit
1-Year Repair Only International Warranty
Black Pelican Case
Capture One DB
Single-Bay battery charger
One 2500 mAh battery
Viewfinder masks (5 pcs)
4.5m Firewire Cable
DigiClean kit
Value Added Warranty Kit
3-Year Replacement Loaner International Warranty
3-Year Free Platform Swap Guarantee
Metallic Case
Capture One Pro
Dual-Bay battery charger
Two 2500 mAh batteries
Viewfinder masks (5 pcs)
4.5m Firewire Cable
DigiClean kit
SanDisk 2-gig Extreme IV CF card
SanDisk Firewire 800 card reader
Multiconnector sync cable
Multiconnector > Minijack adapter cable
Manual hard-copy
LCC calibration kit
5 pcs QP greycard
Microfiber cloth
-
Some of this has changed slightly like the case for instance with the New Phase One body is a lot nicer. So please double check with your dealers just to make sure you have all the right updates
-
Seems strange to choose the 28MP sensor for this comparison, when Sinar doesn't have one. The larger 22MP is more expensive. As all of the manufacturers offer a 22MP back, why not compare this?
-
James: I believe that there is another extremely important "feature" of these packages that should be included in any comparison, and that is the actual terms oft he warranties. What is included in the "basic" one year warranty? In particular, is it a "hot swap" warranty that provides for a 24 hour guaranteed loaner if your back goes down? How about the extended three year warranty?
I personally would not buy a back without an extended hot swap warranty. I was also favorably disposed to an H3D because both the camera and the back are Hasselblad. If there is a problem, nobody points a finger and says it's the other guy's problem. You call your Hasselblad dealer and, at least if its Steve Hendrix, you get a loaner from Hasselblad with next day delivery. For you, as a professional, a second back and body can be justified, and may be a necessity. Very difficult for most of us to afford it or be able to justify.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205310\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I guess this depends on where you are and what you do.
For me, 24 hours might as well be 24 years.
For some, maybe it comes in handy, though I wonder if those loaners are available in all mounts.
Do they have a contax, bronica, mamiya, H, V, HY6 (oops sorry, nobody has that), or every other mount available?
For Hasselblad brand H3 series cameras, lenses and accessories the loaner should be easy because as far as they are concerned I guess there really is only one camera mount to worry about.
JR
-
Seems strange to choose the 28MP sensor for this comparison, when Sinar doesn't have one. The larger 22MP is more expensive. As all of the manufacturers offer a 22MP back, why not compare this?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=205380\")
No it doesn't.
I listed out the newest in relationship to the lowest price that 3 of the 4 db makers have, mainly because as mentioned by a lot of the dealers, given the choice of a 400 iso 22mpx sensor or a 800 iso 31/28 mpx sensor the larger pixel count sensor is the choice.
Also the 22 mpx sensors from Kodak and Dalsa are some of the older technology, I was thinking that the person that is coming from a 1ds3 probably wouldn't drop another 24k to 45k on a new medium format system for just a 1 mpx increase.
There was no plan to penalize Sinar, but if you wish, modify that list and put in 22mpx sensors with all the lenses and bodies from the 4 db makers and see where they fall.
Neil took the time, now it's your turn. All your going to see is another 2 to 3 thousand dollar increase across the board.
___________________________
From Neil's research;
Phaseone System USA List Pricing
Source: [a href=\"http://www.calumetphoto.com/]http://www.calumetphoto.com/[/url]
Mamiya 645 35mm Lens - $1379
Mamiya 645 45mm Lens - $1099
Mamiya 645 55mm Lens - $989
Mamiya 645 80mm Lens (included w/ camera) n/a
Mamiya 645 150mm Lens - $1189
Total for Lenses - $4656
Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 1 year warranty - $22490
Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 3 year warranty - $26990
Total for Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 1 year warranty - with lenses - $27146
Total for Phase P30+, Phaseone 645 body - 3 year warranty - with lenses - $31646
Leaf System USA List Pricing
Source: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/)
40mm (couldn't find pricing)
50mm - $5150
80mm - $3100
180mm - $6920
Total for Lenses - $15170
Leaf AFi 6 Camera Kit with Waist Level Finder and Aptus 65S Digital Back (doesn't spec warrenty length) - $25995
Leaf AFi 6 Camera Kit with lenses - $41165
Sinar System USA List Pricing
Sources: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/) and http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/prodtech/news...t_id=1003584386 (http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/prodtech/news...t_id=1003584386)
40mm (couldn't find pricing)
50mm - $5150
80mm - $3100
180mm - $6920
Total for Lenses - $15170
Sinar Hy6/Sinarback emotion 54LV - 3 year warrenty - $30500
Sinar Hy6/Sinarback emotion 54LV - 3 year warrenty - with lenses - $45670
Hasselblad Sysyem USA List Pricing
Source: http://www.calumetphoto.com/ (http://www.calumetphoto.com/)
35mm - $3440
50mm - $3155
80mm (included with camera) n/a
150mm - $3100
Total for Lenses - $9695
Hasselblad Hasselblad H3DII-31 with 80mm Lens (doesn't spec warrenty length) - (pricing reflects a current promotional discount of $9000) - $17995
Hasselblad Hasselblad H3DII-31 with lenses - $27690
JR
-
We agree, James.
Thanks,
Thierry
Thierry,
When I made that list I just wanted to see a comparision of the middle of the range backs and cameras, not the very top end.
I thought a comparision with the top end backs pricing would be too scary.
From a sinar standpoint it's almost impossible to compare exactly with the other makes, because you guys offer less variety in sensor sizes than the rest of the makers.
Your right about the 22mp dalsa chip, it's different than the 31mpx kodak and I've owned both.
For the nice look of the dalsa, which can be very nice under certain conditions, and the size which helps with certain lenses, it also has it's limitations, iso being one of them.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205260\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Are you that sure, James, nobody?
That's simply not true.
Best regards,
Thierry
... HY6 (oops sorry, nobody has that) ...
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205381\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Are you that sure, James, nobody!
That's simply not true.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205497\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That was a joke, but on the web, it's hard to have humor.
I guess I should have said as customer we have three grades of open platforms, open, semi open, closed.
Kind of sounds like a cable package.
(that is also a joke).
As far as the iso of a 22mpx dalsa compared to the 31mpx Kodak chips there is a full stop differnce at least in the thousands of images I have shot at those iso's with those backs.
JR
P.S. Theirry, I have a question you can probably answer. How has the open, semi open, closed thing worked out for medium format? Is Hasselblad selling like crazy, have Sinar sales improved dramatically, is Leaf busting out HY6's all over the world. Really, I'm curious if this has pushed sales up, or kept people away. Are all the makers selling more backs for their proprietary cameras or are they still selling for the V's , Contax's and older H's? Does anyone publish sales numbers?
-
James,
that may certainly be the case for some (may be a lot), but also certainly not for all. There are many others working in different fields and not needing/wishing the advantages of a 28/30 MPx sensor but rather the advantages of a 22 MPx sensor.
I listed out the newest in relationship to the lowest price that 3 of the 4 db makers have, mainly because as mentioned by a lot of the dealers, given the choice of a 400 iso 22mpx sensor or a 800 iso 31/28 mpx sensor the larger pixel count sensor is the choice.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=205419\")
I am pretty sure you didn't. But a fair (by means of the same type of sensor/pixel count) comparison would be nice to have, for the record. I have given the new prices (as per July 01st '08), with lenses, for our eMotion 54 LV 22 MPx and the standard 3-year Sinar warranty.
There was no plan to penalize Sinar, but if you wish, modify that list and put in 22mpx sensors with all the lenses and bodies from the 4 db makers and see where they fall.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205419\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As mentioned in my earlier post above, as per July 01st '08, the new recommended list price of this same Sinar Hy6 - eMotion 54LV with standard 3-Year warranty is US$ 22'550.- (not US$ 30'500.-)
The package with the same above lenses being thus US$ 44'245.- with 3-Year Warranty, and DOES INCLUDE the below mentioned 40mm lens (not US$ 45'670.- and without the 40mm).
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Sinar System USA List Pricing
Sources: [a href=\"http://www.calumetphoto.com/]http://www.calumetphoto.com/[/url] and http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/prodtech/news...t_id=1003584386 (http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/prodtech/news...t_id=1003584386)
40mm (couldn't find pricing)
50mm - $5150
80mm - $3100
180mm - $6920
Total for Lenses - $15170
Sinar Hy6/Sinarback emotion 54LV - 3 year warrenty - $30500
Sinar Hy6/Sinarback emotion 54LV - 3 year warrenty - with lenses - $45670
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205419\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
That was a joke, but on the web, it's hard to have humor.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205500\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Alright, got it. I simply can't let it stand, kind of my duty to correct what could be misunderstood. Hope you understand me as well.
As far as the iso of a 22mpx dalsa compared to the 31mpx Kodak chips there is a full stop differnce at least in the thousands of images I have shot at those iso's with those backs.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205500\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, sure enough, but then, and as said, you are in a field which is different than some others, or let's put it this way, some others are in a different field than yours, and don't need this extra stop. Not all have the same priorities. At least that is what I can hear when speaking with users.
P.S. Theirry, I have a question you can probably answer. How has the open, semi open, closed thing worked out for medium format? Is Hasselblad selling like crazy, have Sinar sales improved dramatically, is Leaf busting out HY6's all over the world. Really, I'm curious if this has pushed sales up, or kept people away. Are all the makers selling more backs for their proprietary cameras or are they still selling for the V's , Contax's and older H's? Does anyone publish sales numbers?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205500\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I certainly can answer following: I believe that the volume of sales for each manufacturer has changed from 2006 to 2007, respectively the market share of each one has changed. Understand that some have increased their market share and consequently some have decreased it. I am pretty sure of that.
As such, the open/semi-open/closed situation has certainly changed something in the market. And it has certainly not affected the total sales volume for MF, at least until now (understand 2007, since the 2008 figures are not given or estimated).
Best regards,
Thierry
-
Alright, got it. I simply can't let it stand, kind of my duty to correct what could be misunderstood. Hope you understand me as well.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=205505\")
Theirry,
Yes as I've said before, I am positive that anytime the word Sinar pops up on the internet, the ESA [a href=\"http://www.esa.int/esaTE/index.html]http://www.esa.int/esaTE/index.html[/url] tasks three satellites to your Dick Tracy watch, or Sinar branded phone so you can "Set the record straight and be clearly understood".
(This is also meant as internet humor).
JR
-
I've got it, this one, James.
Which brand are you using for your own? I found my Sinar branded one to be rather a bit over-sensitive most of the time, but I can't adjust it.
Thierry
Theirry,
Yes as I've said before, I am positive that anytime the word Sinar pops up on the internet, the ESA http://www.esa.int/esaTE/index.html (http://www.esa.int/esaTE/index.html) tasks three satellites to your Dick Tracy watch, or Sinar branded phone so you can "Set the record straight and be clearly understood".
(This is also meant as internet humor).
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205508\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Theirry,
Yes as I've said before, I am positive that anytime the word Sinar pops up on the internet, the ESA http://www.esa.int/esaTE/index.html (http://www.esa.int/esaTE/index.html) tasks three satellites to your Dick Tracy watch, or Sinar branded phone so you can "Set the record straight and be clearly understood".
(This is also meant as internet humor).
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205508\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Does anybody in here even have Sinar.. Just wondering b/c you never hear anything about them unless it is a Sells pitch from in here.
I have never seen or heard of anybody using Sinar...
The market must be really small and will get even smaller I imagine in the future.
I personally hear Sinar and I relate it with Broncolor and $$$$ expensive...:+}
Not trying to be funny but I really only hear arguments between... Hassie/Phase/Leaf
in here..
Never even seen a post about Sinar..
Snook
PS. The post is for Phase/Mamiya AFDIII review...
-
HY6 (Rollei Version)+Sinar-M+eMotion54LV+SInarback 54H
Yevgeny
Does anybody in here even have Sinar.. Just wondering b/c you never hear anything about them unless it is a Sells pitch from in here.
I have never seen or heard of anybody using Sinar....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205515\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Open your eyes, Snook, and you shall find some, by looking well.
BTW: I would be interested to know where you read some "Sells pitch"? Could you link me to it?
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
Does anybody in here even have Sinar.. Just wondering b/c you never hear anything about them unless it is a Sells pitch from in here.
I have never seen or heard of anybody using Sinar...
The market must be really small and will get even smaller I imagine in the future.
I personally hear Sinar and I relate it with Broncolor and $$$$ expensive...:+}
Not trying to be funny but I really only hear arguments between... Hassie/Phase/Leaf
in here..
Never even seen a post about Sinar..
Snook
PS. The post is for Phase/Mamiya AFDIII review...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205515\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Open your eyes, Snook, and you shall find some, by looking well.
BTW: I would be interested to know where you read some "Sells pitch"? Could you link me to it?
Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205521\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry in no way was I trying to offend anybody..
Just an observation, of mine...
I am sure your product is awesome.. just never really see it mentioned that much in the forums.. Usually people asking Leaf or Phase, and the Hassleblad guys are a breed of their own.
Hassleblad has come down a lot in pricing, b/c when I was first looking into MFDB's which was not that long ago.. I always ruled out Hassleblad b/c it was always out of the ball park in pricing, for me, and I was not sure how rugged they were/are and where I live it is a pain to send stuff back and there is 0 option to rent... That is why I eventually went with phase as they were supposed to be pretty rugged.
Whether you can park a car on them or not I really could care o less!!!
Phase and Leafs were pretty easy to find relatively cheap used or reconditioned..
Now hassle blad seems to have come down a lot or there are more used older tech on the market today...
Sorry again getting off the topic...
Again just my experience in here..
Snook
-
There are Sinars around but including me
it was the changable back that swung it for me and the inbuilt memory
generally an intelligent and quality product
But in the UK Phase and Blad appear to be the thing
it seems to me that there are a couple of UK dealers who are Phase and are rental too that really push thier products some are even located in the or really near some of the big rental (of space) studios
You are talking a replacement in 2 minutes if there is a problem when you are shooting
These dealers really turn thier product over renting them for a couple of months then flogging them to the users who are getting pissed with the rental fees and who already know the product
Sinar have failed to create that vibe in the UK at least by their esoteric choice of dealers and failure to penetrate the rental network
I tell you that I have two mates who have gone to Phase which pretty much works out of the box
There was laughter when I demontrated the Brum workflow to my Phase mate
Really Phase won by getting thier P25 distributed fast
Sinar need to chuck 50 HY6/75LVs into the london rental houses for free for six months to turn it around
S
-
I've got it, this one, James.
Which brand are you using for your own? I found my Sinar branded one to be rather a bit over-sensitive most of the time, but I can't adjust it.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205514\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thierry,
You caught me.
I gotta admit I've been working day and night to get Contax to improve their line of cameras.
We're building in faster autofocus, variable crops in cameras, wireless to the i-phone (and my mom's HP laptop), F 1.0 leaf shutter lenses and a focal plane shutter in the body.
Right now we've got the the Contex (named after my original Texas origins) coming out soon.
It will be open platform (for Contex branded backs only), have a universal mount, (as long as it is a Contex branded back) and the good news is be available to everyone (with a Contex branded back) as soon as I get somebody from Contax to answer a phone.
BTW: Since your an industry insider, would you have their phone number?
Thanks in advance.
JR
-
It will be open platform (for Contex branded backs only), have a universal mount, (as long as it is a Contex branded back) and the good news is be available to everyone (with a Contex branded back) as soon as I get somebody from Contax to answer a phone.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205528\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
PRICELESS James!!!
-
Nope, not any longer, had erased it since I handed it over to you, during our last secret conspiration meeting in Davos, CH. Don't remember?
Thierry
Thierry,
BTW: Since your an industry insider, would you have their phone number?
Thanks in advance.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205528\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Nope, not any longer, had erased it since I handed it over to you, during our last secret conspiration meeting in Davos, CH. Don't remember?
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205592\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No more opinions on this new camera?
I a thinking of upgrading as my P30 just croaked. Been offered the P30+ and the new Phamiya.
Thanks
Snook
PS. Does anybody know if my "L" bracket for the AFDII will work on the New AFDIII?
Hope so
Thanks again!!
-
No more opinions on this new camera?
I a thinking of upgrading as my P30 just croaked. Been offered the P30+ and the new Phamiya.
Thanks
Snook
PS. Does anybody know if my "L" bracket for the AFDII will work on the New AFDIII?
Hope so
Thanks again!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207955\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've heard the P30+ price will drop to match the H3DII-31 at $18000 soon.
Also there may be some major announcements (maybe a next generation P30+) it might be worth waiting until Photokina before dropping money on what might become a second generation product.
New Dalsa Chip, Variable resolution, faster capture rates (1-2fps) improved ISO, better noise ???
Just a thought
-
Snook
PS. Does anybody know if my "L" bracket for the AFDII will work on the New AFDIII?
Hope so
Thanks again!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207955\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sorry to hear about your misfortune. I’ve got a AFD II and a L bracket and in looking over the spec’s of the new III it appears that the dimensions the same – so only guessing here but I’d say the chances are better that 90% that the bracket will fit.
don
-
Snook
Sorry to hear about your misfortune. I’ve got a AFD II and a L bracket and in looking over the spec’s of the new III it appears that the dimensions the same – so only guessing here but I’d say the chances are better that 90% that the bracket will fit.
don
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207968\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Snook and Don,
Kirk's L-bracket fits AFDIII. I just got the AFDIII this weekend, upgrading from a used AFD. I have the Kirk bracket and have a www.Camdapter.com leather hand strap laying waiting for it, plan to use together with my Optech strap.
My very limited use of the AFDIII is that it has pleasant AF speed, less mirror bounce and much improved grip. It is still slower AF than my F100 was, but feels as clear improved useability over AFD.
Indeed Mamiya appear to have some quality issues glueing the rubber on the AFDIII body, the fourth AFDIII that I looked at was more acceptable than the other three, yet... I will not be surpriced if rubber will start come off eventually... poor Mamiya ... I think will add some super glue to my camera bag to improve if corners start come off!
Regards
Anders
-
BTW I have the new Phase body had it since last Friday , Jack also got his. Had limited time with it been a little sick but I really like the feel of it so far. It seems faster in all respects , AF is much quicker and more DSLR like and it handles and feels faster to me. So far very nice improvements for the shooter. I leave this week for NY and have to shoot runway and I am determined to shoot MF for this show. The Phase body will get a nice workout , me also. LOL
-
PS. Does anybody know if my "L" bracket for the AFDII will work on the New AFDIII?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207955\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sure does! I just swapped my Kirk over from my AFD2 and it fits identically
PS: A FWIW for posterity of this thread. I normally am a fan of RRS brackets, but for the AFD series body the Kirk bracket fits closer and appears more "integrated" to the body...
Cheers,
-
There are Sinars around but including me
it was the changable back that swung it for me and the inbuilt memory
generally an intelligent and quality product
But in the UK Phase and Blad appear to be the thing
it seems to me that there are a couple of UK dealers who are Phase and are rental too that really push thier products some are even located in the or really near some of the big rental (of space) studios
You are talking a replacement in 2 minutes if there is a problem when you are shooting
These dealers really turn thier product over renting them for a couple of months then flogging them to the users who are getting pissed with the rental fees and who already know the product
Sinar have failed to create that vibe in the UK at least by their esoteric choice of dealers and failure to penetrate the rental network
I tell you that I have two mates who have gone to Phase which pretty much works out of the box
There was laughter when I demontrated the Brum workflow to my Phase mate
Really Phase won by getting thier P25 distributed fast
Sinar need to chuck 50 HY6/75LVs into the london rental houses for free for six months to turn it around
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205527\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, in my experience shopping for backs in Spain, that the phase people have always made me a priority, getting whatever I need in my hands (the new camera for example) right away. I wanted to try the hy6, got a couple of calls, and then the rep kinda dropped off the face of the planet. I mean, I´ve given up going into a camera store and being able to see this stuff in person, but if that´s the reality at least take the time to make sure I can make an informed decision without having to make ten phone calls, send out 5 emails and rub my tummy and tap my head at the same time...
That for me is a big part of why phase succeeds. They know how to get cameras in the right rental houses, in the hands of the future buyers. Oh and the software. I mean, I´m spending thousands. Make my life easier.
-
There are Sinars around but including me
it was the changable back that swung it for me and the inbuilt memory
generally an intelligent and quality product
But in the UK Phase and Blad appear to be the thing
it seems to me that there are a couple of UK dealers who are Phase and are rental too that really push thier products some are even located in the or really near some of the big rental (of space) studios
You are talking a replacement in 2 minutes if there is a problem when you are shooting
These dealers really turn thier product over renting them for a couple of months then flogging them to the users who are getting pissed with the rental fees and who already know the product
Sinar have failed to create that vibe in the UK at least by their esoteric choice of dealers and failure to penetrate the rental network
I tell you that I have two mates who have gone to Phase which pretty much works out of the box
There was laughter when I demontrated the Brum workflow to my Phase mate
Really Phase won by getting thier P25 distributed fast
Sinar need to chuck 50 HY6/75LVs into the london rental houses for free for six months to turn it around
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205527\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The New York and LA market is very similar in my experience. I sent quite some time managing the EQ department for a busy digital capture company and for MFDB we did 70% Phase jobs and nearly 30% Leaf. In my 2 years there we never did a Hasselblad/imacon job, and only had 2 clients wanting to shoot Sinar. This was with doing 1-5 different MFDB jobs a day. I believe they have done 1 or two Hassy jobs since I left, but still not much in terms of percentage.
-
Does anybody in here even have Sinar.. Just wondering b/c you never hear anything about them unless it is a Sells pitch from in here.
I have never seen or heard of anybody using Sinar...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=205515\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
So you've never seen my posts and my signature?
Sinar e54LV user here.
-
Does anyone else have any hands-on information about the new Phase/Mamiya body?
Is the viewfinder magnification any bigger? Brighter?
Thanks...
-
Does anyone else have any hands-on information about the new Phase/Mamiya body?
Is the viewfinder magnification any bigger? Brighter?
Thanks...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208138\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Same size magnification (needs to be to view the new true full-frame P65+ sensor). Maybe a touch brighter, but then I found the AFD2 finder pretty bright to begin with It does take the same screens as the AFD2, I've already swapped my grid screen out of the AFD2 into the AFD3.
-
How does the auto focus on the Mamiya AFD III compare to that on an H3D II?
-
Bob have not tried against the Hassy bodies but I did play with a H3 couple weeks ago and I would say it is faster and more like a D300 or 5D . Yes it is pretty quick. Also shutter lag also seems to be faster. Af does seem to be noiser but the shutter is dampened a little better than the AFDII. So far i really like the way it feels. I will be giving it a heavy run next week, so we will see how it does under the gun in a fast paced situation like runway stuff. I will be shooting the Phase body , P25 Plus and the 300mm AF lens at high ISO's. This is pushing the system right into 35mm world, fingers crossed
-
How does the auto focus on the Mamiya AFD III compare to that on an H3D II?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Bob,
I demoed Phase One on a Hassy H2 earlier this year. Per my recollection AF speed may be similar.
The AFDIII is not super fast but to point of being an improved tool. I could better compare to Nikon F100 and D200 which I used extensively. For those I would say it is slower than 28-70 AF-S and the like, but somewhat faster than the slow 80-400 VR. Also not the focus hunting that 80-400 exhibited. Thus a tad slow to put it into SLR cathegory...
Regards
Anders
-
Hi Anders
Picking up my AFD3 later this week.
Two questions if you can help:
1. I didn't think Kirk made L plates for the AFD? They are not listed in my brochure and I don't see them on the web. Can you please let me know the serial number of the L plate you have found to work?
2. I also like the idea of a wrist strap. I checked your Camadapter suggestion and it looks good. But can you leave the wrist strap on the camera and mount it on a tripod at the same time? From the web photos it looks as if the Camadapter base plate will interfere with the Kirk body plate for the AFD?
Any light you can shed would be appreciated!
Thx
Olaf
Snook and Don,
Kirk's L-bracket fits AFDIII. I just got the AFDIII this weekend, upgrading from a used AFD. I have the Kirk bracket and have a www.Camdapter.com leather hand strap laying waiting for it, plan to use together with my Optech strap.
Regards
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=207979\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Hi Anders
Picking up my AFD3 later this week.
Two questions if you can help:
1. I didn't think Kirk made L plates for the AFD? They are not listed in my brochure and I don't see them on the web. Can you please let me know the serial number of the L plate you have found to work?
2. I also like the idea of a wrist strap. I checked your Camadapter suggestion and it looks good. But can you leave the wrist strap on the camera and mount it on a tripod at the same time? From the web photos it looks as if the Camadapter base plate will interfere with the Kirk body plate for the AFD?
Any light you can shed would be appreciated!
Thx
Olaf
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208354\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The Kirk BL-645AF fits the Mamiya 6.45AF and 6.45AFD and AFD2 and AFD3. I machined a slot in the bottom where it meets the body and threaded the end of my wrist strap under that, held in place with one of the plastic strap keepers (or you could use a small split-ring) while the other end attaches to the top strap lug. Works perfectly.
-
If Phase and Mamiya think they will up-price the body and lenses by means of a paint job they are making a serious mistake. You don't turn a Volkswagen into a Mercedes by moving a couple of knobs around on the dashboard.
The new pricing is unjustified. I own a P45+ and Mamiya combo, the camera works ok mostly (damages about one of 20 shots) but is clearly what you'd call a "value proposition" for people who want MF quality at the lowest possible price point with no frills. $200 or $300 used lenses can be found all over the place, some AF and most MF.
I'd say that with Phase/Mamiya rasing prices and Hassy lowering theirs, and with Hassy improving both their backs and their software, any advantages of Mamiya as a value proposition are quickly being erased. The screen on the back of the Hassy will probably seal the deal for any doubters.
There is an argument to be made for Mamiya in fashion - the lenses have a nice soft look - but it cuts the other way for landscape. I do much prefer the Mamiya viewfinder to that of the Hassy.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=204855\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In what area is the H2 "better" than the Mamiya? It's just not that simple, some prefer the H some prefer AFD, there's no way one is the Merc and the other a VW. How do you damage shots? In a 1000 frames I may have one thats out of focus and I shoot fashion hand held.
-
The Kirk BL-645AF fits the Mamiya 6.45AF and 6.45AFD and AFD2 and AFD3. I machined a slot in the bottom where it meets the body and threaded the end of my wrist strap under that, held in place with one of the plastic strap keepers (or you could use a small split-ring) while the other end attaches to the top strap lug. Works perfectly.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208372\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Olaf,
Yup, BL-645AF, look at www.kirkphoto.com under "L-brackets for other cameras". With a file you can make a small slot for the Camdapter strap to fit. No need for their tripod plate. I have not yet mounted the strap because it is somewhere in boxes here. My plan is to attach other end to the plastic buckle on my Optech neck strap. Will work
Anders
-
Thx Jack and Anders
BTW I also asked RRS why they didn't make an L plate specifically for the M645 AFD2. They are making it now - it will ship by the end of the month. It is the BM 645L. It can be found here: http://reallyrightstuff.com/rrs/Itemdesc.a...645%2DL&eq=&Tp= (http://reallyrightstuff.com/rrs/Itemdesc.asp?ic=BM645%2DL&eq=&Tp=)
Now we have 2 solutions! Thx for your help.
Olaf
Olaf,
Yup, BL-645AF, look at www.kirkphoto.com under "L-brackets for other cameras". With a file you can make a small slot for the Camdapter strap to fit. No need for their tripod plate. I have not yet mounted the strap because it is somewhere in boxes here. My plan is to attach other end to the plastic buckle on my Optech neck strap. Will work
Anders
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=208520\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
-
Bob have not tried against the Hassy bodies but I did play with a H3 couple weeks ago and I would say it is faster and more like a D300 or 5D . Yes it is pretty quick. Also shutter lag also seems to be faster. Af does seem to be noiser but the shutter is dampened a little better than the AFDII. So far i really like the way it feels. I will be giving it a heavy run next week, so we will see how it does under the gun in a fast paced situation like runway stuff. I will be shooting the Phase body , P25 Plus and the 300mm AF lens at high ISO's. This is pushing the system right into 35mm world, fingers crossed
Hi Guy
A question came up about the focus control buttons comparing the AFDII vrs the AFDIII. With the AFDII you can have the focus separate from the shutter release on the AEL or front button on the body. Can you separate the focus from the shutter release on the AFDIII?
Denis
-
Hi Guy
A question came up about the focus control buttons comparing the AFDII vrs the AFDIII. With the AFDII you can have the focus separate from the shutter release on the AEL or front button on the body. Can you separate the focus from the shutter release on the AFDIII?
Denis
Yes i seen that and I am checking that now. I used it on the II . Sending note to Doug and Phase right now. Hopefully we are overlooking something or it got taken off with II to III
-
Okay Jack is telling me it is these settings on the III. I need to confirm
From
Yes, I am pretty sure it is on the 3 too. Try CF 19-1 (there should be a 0, 1 and 2) Then pressing the rear button should AF the camera and lock as soon as focus is achieved.
-
Yes it is CF-19 number 1