Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: woof75 on May 23, 2008, 11:46:40 am

Title: here we go again
Post by: woof75 on May 23, 2008, 11:46:40 am
Hey, it's your house Michael but I am starting to find this forum to be too agrevating for me to contribute to. After we talked about this last week and decided self moderation was the way to go a certain "contributer" has reverted back to adding nothing and simply coming on the forum to basically tell people they are full of it. Although we have seen what happens with an overly zealous moderator I think we are starting to see here what happens with no moderation, I think it's time to step in.
Title: here we go again
Post by: michael on May 23, 2008, 11:54:32 am
If you could provide me with the specific thread that you're concerned about I'll look at it. I don't read everything every day, particularly in a week such as this one when I'm traveling and shooting.

Michael
Title: here we go again
Post by: Snook on May 23, 2008, 11:56:56 am
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Hey, it's your house Michael but I am starting to find this forum to be too agrevating for me to contribute to. After we talked about this last week and decided self moderation was the way to go a certain "contributer" has reverted back to adding nothing and simply coming on the forum to basically tell people they are full of it. Although we have seen what happens with an overly zealous moderator I think we are starting to see here what happens with no moderation, I think it's time to step in.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197508\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Woof are you new to these types of forums?
I do understand your concerns but you really need to just not post or read threads that annoy you. It is really simple.
You just jumped on me calling me a troll when I was obviously being sarcastic about a picture.
Jumping in in every thread calling people trolls and such is pretty much what starts non sense post in "other" Consumer photographic Forums.
Troll? Actually sounds like it comes from a Dpreview.com type forum where the Nikon guys and Canon guys go at it...:+}
You cannot start calling people trolls and not expect conflict in other words.. right?
If you ignore the comments you do not like they will just drop off the front page and get lost.
I think the Crowd here is a little more professional.
try and be civil
Thanks
Snook
Title: here we go again
Post by: thsinar on May 23, 2008, 12:03:46 pm
Snook, I don't think Woof75 aimed at you!

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
You just jumped on me calling me a troll
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197514\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: here we go again
Post by: woof75 on May 23, 2008, 12:07:38 pm
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Woof are you new to these types of forums?
I do understand your concerns but you really need to just not post or read threads that annoy you. It is really simple.
You just jumped on me calling me a troll when I was obviously being sarcastic about a picture.
Jumping in in every thread calling people trolls and such is pretty much what starts non sense post in "other" Consumer photographic Forums.
Troll? Actually sounds like it comes from a Dpreview.com type forum where the Nikon guys and Canon guys go at it...:+}
You cannot start calling people trolls and not expect conflict in other words.. right?
If you ignore the comments you do not like they will just drop off the front page and get lost.
I think the Crowd here is a little more professional.
try and be civil
Thanks
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197514\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you look at the quote Snook I was actually calling Ray a troll. To be sarcastically insulting about someone else's picture is incredibly low. When you post work on here you are exposing yourself and it's horrendous to ridicule someone else's work through sarcasm when they have opened themselves by showing there work. Honest criticism obviously is fine but sarcastically making fun of someone elses work is terrible. Which is what Ray was doing.

Michael- the threads I am concerned about are the high ISO MFDB post which is descending into MF v DB again which was in no way the intention of the poster thereby of course making an informative post absolutely infuriating and useless and the other thread which concerns me is the one detailed above about the way someone's picture was ridiculed.
Title: here we go again
Post by: Ray on May 23, 2008, 12:18:44 pm
Well, this really is totally ridiculous. You've brought a smile to my face. Thank you.
Title: here we go again
Post by: EricWHiss on May 23, 2008, 12:24:02 pm
IMHO - Ray has added very little in terms of information, clogs up the threads with useless chaff, and for the most part gets people arguing just like above.  He doesn't read what people write, argues his own points even when its way off topic like consistently bringing in DSLR to the MF forum, and now he has even polluted the recent works thread with wanton sarcasm all the while he has no images to add. He's posting at a 1 to 1 ratio in some MF forum threads - that is 1 Ray post vs 1 post from the rest of the members.    This all adds up to TROLL.
Title: here we go again
Post by: Snook on May 23, 2008, 12:42:56 pm
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IMHO - Ray has added very little in terms of information, clogs up the threads with useless chaff, and for the most part gets people arguing just like above.  He doesn't read what people write, argues his own points even when its way off topic like consistently bringing in DSLR to the MF forum, and now he has even polluted the recent works thread with wanton sarcasm all the while he has no images to add. He's posting at a 1 to 1 ratio in some MF forum threads - that is 1 Ray post vs 1 post from the rest of the members.    This all adds up to TROLL.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197528\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
OK woof I am really sorry I thought you were calling me a troll..
You see how Wars get started....:+}
In any case No hard feelings here..
I do admit Ray like to Argue and Poke at people from My observations...
He does have 5,000 something post... seems like if he was bad Michael would have booted him a while ago.
In any case the Best medicine for guys like him is just to ignore them....they'll go away sooner or later.
Snook
Woof again sorry, I thought you were aiming it at me.
Title: here we go again
Post by: woof75 on May 23, 2008, 12:45:52 pm
Quote
OK woof I am really sorry I thought you were calling me a troll..
You see how Wars get started....:+}
In any case No hard feelings here..
I do admit Ray like to Argue and Poke at people from My observations...
He does have 5,000 something post... seems like if he was bad Michael would have booted him a while ago.
In any case the Best medicine for guys like him is just to ignore them....they'll go away sooner or later.
Snook
Woof again sorry, I thought you were aiming it at me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197535\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No problem Snook.
Title: here we go again
Post by: Mitchell Baum on May 23, 2008, 12:47:11 pm
I tend to ignore Ray, but it is indeed aggravating when good threads go bad, and now attacking someone's image with sarcasm is a new low.

Best,

Mitchell
Title: here we go again
Post by: Ray on May 23, 2008, 01:07:57 pm
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I tend to ignore Ray, but it is indeed aggravating when good threads go bad, and now attacking someone's image with sarcasm is a new low.

Best,

Mitchell
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197539\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


There's little hope in the world with such parochial attitudes. You have to accept a little sarcasm and a little cyincysm.

This forum tends to be weak on intellectual rigor, as are most other forums. Ad hominen attacks are rife, which is deplorable.

If any good thread has gone bad, that I have contributed to, then let me know so I can learn the errors of my ways.
Title: here we go again
Post by: Graham Mitchell on May 23, 2008, 01:29:19 pm
It's pretty hard to ignore the trolls when they post more than anyone else, and derail otherwise productive threads.
Title: here we go again
Post by: amsp on May 23, 2008, 01:42:32 pm
I'd have to agree that Ray seems hellbent on trying to convert every thread, no matter the subject, into a "Canon 5D is as good or better than any DB" discussion. Tiring to say the least.
Title: here we go again
Post by: James R Russell on May 23, 2008, 01:49:55 pm
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I'd have to agree that Ray seems hellbent on trying to convert every thread, no matter the subject, into a "Canon 5D is as good or better than any DB" discussion. Tiring to say the least.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197548\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


This type of stuff just kills all meaninful discussion and runs good people away.

Of that I'm 100% sure.

JR
Title: here we go again
Post by: Anthony R on May 23, 2008, 01:53:14 pm
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This type of stuff just kills all meaninful discussion and runs good people away.

Of that I'm 100% sure.

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197550\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Which is another reason to have a "Pro" section. As it is, this site treads often down the road to becoming photo.net or dpreview.
Title: here we go again
Post by: Ray on May 23, 2008, 02:11:45 pm
Dear me! Dear me! again. There's no sense here. You people are so precious, it's unbelievable. If you want a meaningful discussion, I'm the guy.
Title: here we go again
Post by: EricWHiss on May 23, 2008, 02:12:30 pm
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Which is another reason to have a "Pro" section. As it is, this site treads often down the road to becoming photo.net or dpreview.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197552\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, but we all decided not to have a Pro or member's only section just last week, plus don't forget we are really only complaining about one troll poster here.  If Ray would stop his nonsense then we wouldn't have a problem.   He's had a lot of polite requests to not interfere, and then some more stern requests, and even some really direct stuff like this whole thread for example and he just keeps posting away with wild abandon.  If you ask me I think he's gone mad and needs to be stopped. He's clearly not taking the hint.
Title: here we go again
Post by: Dale Allyn on May 23, 2008, 02:13:31 pm
I believe that the need is not for a "Pro" section, but for greater respect of forum sections (i.e. subjects appropriate to a given forum area) and a respect for the primary topic of each thread. It's not that difficult to use good forum etiquette and to respect others.

Just a thought...
Title: here we go again
Post by: mbridgers on May 23, 2008, 02:18:11 pm
If the guy bugs you so much, just ignore him.  You'll never see the posts, and I doubt you'd miss much.

Just click on his user name, then click "ignore user" in the profile screen.  Out of sight, out of mind.
Title: here we go again
Post by: DarkPenguin on May 23, 2008, 02:24:37 pm
Quote
There's little hope in the world with such parochial attitudes. You have to accept a little sarcasm and a little cyincysm.

This forum tends to be weak on intellectual rigor, as are most other forums. Ad hominen attacks are rife, which is deplorable.

If any good thread has gone bad, that I have contributed to, then let me know so I can learn the errors of my ways.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=197543\")

[a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=25541]http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=25541[/url]
Title: here we go again
Post by: Ray on May 23, 2008, 02:28:22 pm
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If the guy bugs you so much, just ignore him.  You'll never see the posts, and I doubt you'd miss much.

Just click on his user name, then click "ignore user" in the profile screen.  Out of sight, out of mind.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197559\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The guy who bugs you is the guy you should listen to. You turn him off to your own disadvantage. You don't think by ignoring me that I cringe, do you? Makes no difference to me if you ignore me.
Title: here we go again
Post by: Dansk on May 23, 2008, 02:34:57 pm
agreed this guy is annoying and is a thread wrecker
Title: here we go again
Post by: Mort54 on May 23, 2008, 02:46:42 pm
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If you want a meaningful discussion, I'm the guy.
Ray, when you preface your comment with "You people are so precious, it's unbelievable", it suggests the last thing you want is a meaningful discussion. It suggests, to me at least, that you're trying to goad or provoke.

I'm not entirely unsympathetic with some of your views. DSLR IQ is getting incredibly good, and the latest ones are certainly stiff competition for lower res MFDBs. Few here would disagree with that. But what point you are trying to make beyond that eludes me.

I shoot with both a D3 and a P45. They serve different purposes, and each in their own way excels. If I'm shooting low light stuff, or stuff that I don't plan to print all that big, I'd much rather use the D3. If I'm shooting landscapes, or architecture, I'd much rather use the P45. I would be thrilled if I could get the same image quality out of a DSLR that I get from a back, given the better ergonomics and size and weight and price of a DSLR, but sadly that isn't the case today. If that day ever comes, I'll gladly ditch the back.
Title: here we go again
Post by: Ray on May 23, 2008, 03:12:36 pm
Quote
Ray, when you preface your comment with "You people are so precious, it's unbelievable", it suggests the last thing you want is a meaningful discussion. It suggests, to me at least, that you're trying to goad or provoke.

I'm not entirely unsympathetic with some of your views. DSLR IQ is getting incredibly good, and the latest ones are certainly stiff competition for lower res MFDBs. Few here would disagree with that. But what point you are trying to make beyond that eludes me.

I shoot with both a D3 and a P45. They serve different purposes, and each in their own way excels. If I'm shooting low light stuff, or stuff that I don't plan to print all that big, I'd much rather use the D3. If I'm shooting landscapes, or architecture, I'd much rather use the P45. I would be thrilled if I could get the same image quality out of a DSLR that I get from a back, given the better ergonomics and size and weight and price of a DSLR, but sadly that isn't the case today. If that day ever comes, I'll gladly ditch the back.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197568\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mort54,
You haven't read my posts. I understand that MFDB has an image quality advantage at base ISO. It's ideal for the studio where sharp eyelashes and creamy skin texture is the goal. Photographers who use DBs don't have to bother with 'expose to the right' rules. They've got oodles of dynamic range to spare.

Nevertheless, I'd like to see some comparisons at various ISO's, just so I can get a handle on the magnitude of the difference.

Alas! This is to be denied because the consensus is, I should test this for myself even though I have no access to the equipment.
Title: here we go again
Post by: elitegroup on May 23, 2008, 03:41:31 pm
Quote
If the guy bugs you so much, just ignore him.  You'll never see the posts, and I doubt you'd miss much.

Just click on his user name, then click "ignore user" in the profile screen.  Out of sight, out of mind.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197559\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I didn't know you could do that  
Title: here we go again
Post by: marcwilson on May 23, 2008, 03:44:39 pm
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...Alas! This is to be denied because the consensus is, I should test this for myself even though I have no access to the equipment.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197574\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


err...make the effort to rent it...test it yourself for your needs...then you'll know...pretty simple really...
Title: here we go again
Post by: EricWHiss on May 23, 2008, 03:46:30 pm
I have ignored him since at least a year when he was so persistently and fervently posted off track and annoying posts on my MF silly ETTR thread awhile back.

Part of the problem with just Ignoring Ray is that so many members who are not ignoring him get sucked into the vortex and respond to this troll's inane posts and incessant challenges to prove MF is better that whatever.  Ray just keeps pulling/pushing until the thread is unraveled and people are fighting and way off track.  That's the problem - nice, polite people get caught feeding this troll.
Title: here we go again
Post by: Mort54 on May 23, 2008, 04:00:05 pm
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You haven't read my posts. I understand that MFDB has an image quality advantage at base ISO. It's ideal for the studio where sharp eyelashes and creamy skin texture is the goal. Photographers who use DBs don't have to bother with 'expose to the right' rules. They've got oodles of dynamic range to spare.
Actually, Ray, I have read your posts. I was just responding to certain parts of them that people seem to find most annoying. I didn't say (or at least I didn't mean to say) that you don't see the benefits of MFDBs. Instead, I was trying to suggest that there are a whole host of reasons why people use MFDBs. Your suggestions that people are buying them as status symbols is way too simplistic and insulting, and really, what purpose do such comments serve. Your suggestion that MFDB owners are somehow living in fear of DSLR improvements is also way too simplistic and insulting. People on this forum are, by and large, smart people. They are perfectly capable of making their own assessments of the state of technology, and what works for them. They don't need someone who isn't familiar with their business needs telling them how to think, or needling them on their choices.

Quote
Nevertheless, I'd like to see some comparisons at various ISO's, just so I can get a handle on the magnitude of the difference.

Alas! This is to be denied because the consensus is, I should test this for myself even though I have no access to the equipment.
As for ISO comparisons, I won't even bother. I accept the fact that my P45+ isn't in the same league as my D3. I personally don't shoot the P45+ over ISO 200. I typically shoot at ISO 50 or 100. I knew that limitation going in. Some people here are showing pretty good DB results up to ISO 800, but for me at least, with the smaller photo sites of the P45+, and no microlenses, I'll stay at the lower ISOs, thank you. But I guess I have to ask "What's the point of debating this?" Who's going to willingly use a MFDB system in low light, high ISO venues when a modern DSLR would be much more appropriate. People who buy MFDBs aren't buying them for their high ISO prowess. So to my mind the comparison is pointless.

Regarding resolution or accuity, I have done my own side by side comparisons between the D3 and the P45+, with different focal length lenses so that I'm compariing the same resolutions (i.e. same pixel density on the same subject). The D3 pixels (and no doubt the 5D, and 1DIII, and 1DsII pixels) are excellent, and a lot of detail can be pulled from the shadows. But even in such comparisons, the P45+ pixels are better (the P25+ or P30+ pixels may be even better still). Not hugely better, but still better. Maybe it's the lack of AA filter. Or maybe it's due to some of the more intangible advantages that people often claim for MFDBs. I only know what I see. But this is a somewhat unfare comparison. It deliberately brings the P45+ down to the D3s level. If I'm standing at the same place with both systems, and shoot the same landscape composition, there's no doubt which one is better (I realize you understand this, but I'm making the point for completeness).

So, Ray, if you want to play the gadfly on this forum, more power to you. Being a gadfly can be an honorable and thought provoking activity. But it seems to me there is a right way to do that, and a wrong way. Repeatedly making comments that seem more geared to inflame than clarify seems to me to be the wrong way. Of course, that's just my opinion. By the way, even if you don't feel that you are making inflamatory comments, you have to agree that many on this forum feel you do. So isn't that reason enough to rethink your approach.
Title: here we go again
Post by: woof75 on May 23, 2008, 04:59:56 pm
I was the one who suggested a pro forum but it was rejected by most and really thinking about it I agree, good etiquette is all that is required but when someone won't abide by that etiquette and he has been asked to do so then it is time for the moderator to step in.
I mean come on, even this thread is being diverted now, it's starting to get silly and it's pretty much from the actions of one individual.
Title: here we go again
Post by: 203 on May 23, 2008, 05:14:27 pm
Ray, here is a test which Mark Tucker (who I believe fled this board due to idiotic posts) conducted some time ago, comparing the H1 (don't remember which back - I think it was a 22 mp Phase) with the 1Ds2 and the 5D. He resized the Canons up to the Hi file size, and these are 100% crops:

http://www.pcguide.com/pers/H1_1DS2_5D_ver2.jpg (http://www.pcguide.com/pers/H1_1DS2_5D_ver2.jpg)
Title: here we go again
Post by: Wayne Fox on May 23, 2008, 06:02:56 pm
Amazing ... another thread in the MF section that has evolved to MF vs DSLR.
Title: here we go again
Post by: Fritzer on May 23, 2008, 06:57:21 pm
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Amazing ... another thread in the MF section that has evolved to MF vs DSLR.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197602\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Which suggests the OP has a valid point  .
The ignore button will only help if everyone is using it.
Title: here we go again
Post by: Moynihan on May 23, 2008, 07:09:07 pm
Wow, what a cool feature, the ignore button. Wish DPreview had one  
Thanks for pointing it out
Title: here we go again
Post by: Gigi on May 23, 2008, 07:12:21 pm
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Wow, what a cool feature, the ignore button. Wish DPreview had one.
Thanks for pointing it out
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197608\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Agreed. Great stuff. Thanks, Michael.
Title: here we go again
Post by: fpoole on May 23, 2008, 07:42:23 pm
Thank you everyone for pointing out the ignore button!!!
Didn't know it was there either.

Best,
Frank Poole
www.frankpoole.com
Title: here we go again
Post by: dilip on May 23, 2008, 07:54:09 pm
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Wow, what a cool feature, the ignore button. Wish DPreview had one   
Thanks for pointing it out
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197608\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yeah, but after ignoring everyone on DPReview who is annoying, there would be an incredibly low number of posts per day, rendering it pretty much of no use...
 
Title: here we go again
Post by: Andy M on May 24, 2008, 03:27:27 am
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The Ignore button is SWEEEEET!

The MFDB forum will rebirth from its use.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197604\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Now, if people would stop quoting him, we'll never have need to read his inane drivel again
Title: here we go again
Post by: Mort54 on May 24, 2008, 05:54:53 pm
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Now, if people would stop quoting him, we'll never have need to read his inane drivel again
He apologized in a different thread, so I say let bygones be bygones.
Title: here we go again
Post by: Andy M on May 25, 2008, 04:21:14 am
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He apologized in a different thread, so I say let bygones be bygones.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197771\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Glad to hear it, but I'm going to keep him 'blocked' as I value my sanity

Live, and let live...
Title: here we go again
Post by: CJL on May 25, 2008, 03:58:35 pm
Funny... as soon as I read the first post in this thread, I knew it was about Ray.  Thanks for the tip on the "ignore" button!  
Title: here we go again
Post by: skid00skid00 on May 25, 2008, 05:17:28 pm
This is why I have not bothered to spend much time at LL, anymore.

There's mostly just a bunch of whiny babies who think they are better than everyone else, and  are actually WORSE than the majority of posters at DPR!

There's almost zero useful info posted, just alot of 'hey, look at my expensive new equipement, aren't I wonderful!' posts.

And there's zero tolerance for opposing viewpoints, or genuine back-and-forth debates.

What a sad degeneration of what had been the second-best digital imaging site on the web.

Michael, it's time to sell, and start afresh, seriously.
Title: here we go again
Post by: samuel_js on May 25, 2008, 05:41:10 pm
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This is why I have not bothered to spend much time at LL, anymore.
What a sad degeneration of what had been the second-best digital imaging site on the web.
Michael, it's time to sell, and start afresh, seriously.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197939\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If this this kind of visceral, immature comments of yours what make forums garbage.
The LL is not only a discussion forum, is much more.
Title: here we go again
Post by: jjj on May 26, 2008, 02:11:32 pm
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Who's going to willingly use a MFDB system in low light, high ISO venues when a modern DSLR would be much more appropriate. People who buy MFDBs aren't buying them for their high ISO prowess. So to my mind the comparison is pointless.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=197585\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'd really like to have a MF DSLR that was useful at high ISOs. In fact that's the main reason why I find it difficult to pony up for one.
I hired a H339D last year for a shoot. Unfortunately the weather was particularly weird and the light levels plummeted and I had 30secs to grab shot between torrentional downpours. I had a couple of ProPhoto heads set as fill, but they ended up being the main light source and they simply weren't powerful enough for the large area in question.  I had to shoot at 400ISO and underexposed a little too. Even so I think it was only just 1/125th handheld. The results were not exactly as good as I hoped for such an expensive camera.  
So a MF camera that could perform well at high ISOs would be great for my needs, as with outdoor shoots, you can never guarantee light and it gives you greater versatility to boot. If the H3 had decent high ISO, I would have captured a much better shot. And the reason I choose that camera over my much better performing in low light 35mm DSLR, was that I wanted much better quality. Can't say I got it.

As for Ray, he may harp on a bit at times, but most of the irritations to do with him is the incessant ranting about him and the daft demands for censorship. If you do think he is a troll, then feeding him is the daftest response possible as he will wind you up even further. As this thread shows.
Personally, if someone is annoying , I just use the ignore filter in my brain. Works pretty well so far!