Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: woof75 on May 07, 2008, 10:49:17 am
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There's a day at Digital Transitions in NY today (the 7th) where they are doing a demo on it, I won't be able to make it. It sounds quite interesting, it seems that they have come up with lens optimization in capture one. It could be interesting, anyone know anything about it? I think Hasselblad already have this function in there software right, does it work well for them?
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There's a day at Digital Transitions in NY today (the 7th) where they are doing a demo on it, I won't be able to make it. It sounds quite interesting, it seems that they have come up with lens optimization in capture one. It could be interesting, anyone know anything about it? I think Hasselblad already have this function in there software right, does it work well for them?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=194130\")
The Phase One User Forum has lots of info.
[a href=\"http://forum.phaseone.com/viewforum.php?f=22]http://forum.phaseone.com/viewforum.php?f=22[/url]
Bill
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Here is a link to show you some of the dates and cities that Capture Integration will be having seminars at:
http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/05/...r-may-seminars/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/05/05/rsvp-for-may-seminars/)
We will be showing the new Phase One 645 Camera and demonstrating C1 4.1.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
877-217-9870 | National
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Here is a link to show you some of the dates and cities that Capture Integration will be having seminars at:
http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/05/...r-may-seminars/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/05/05/rsvp-for-may-seminars/)
We will be showing the new Phase One 645 Camera and demonstrating C1 4.1.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year (http://www.captureintegration.com)
877-217-9870 | National
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194270\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yeh.. And where are the freak'n Leafshutter lens's.
I am SURE I am not the only one wanting those.
Snook
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Yeh.. And where are the freak'n Leafshutter lens's.
I am SURE I am not the only one wanting those.
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194277\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Patience is a virtue.....
Good things are worth waiting for....
Any more platitudes, just ask,
Bill
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Hi Chris,
Have you had a chance to try it out yet?
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Woof, the seminar is tomorrow. So you might be able to make it after all. I am going to the one at 6PM. Should be fun and informative.
There's a day at Digital Transitions in NY today (the 7th) where they are doing a demo on it, I won't be able to make it. It sounds quite interesting, it seems that they have come up with lens optimization in capture one. It could be interesting, anyone know anything about it? I think Hasselblad already have this function in there software right, does it work well for them?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194130\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Hi Chris,
Have you had a chance to try it out yet?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=194291\")
Not yet. We will be able to get our mitts on ours next week. I'll post my findings soon.
Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year[/url]
877-217-9870 | National
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter (http://visitor.constantcontact.com/email.jsp?m=1101868815210&p=oi) | Read Our Latest Newsletter (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Great seminar, lots of fun, nice presentation and they gave us a lot of time for hands on use of the phase one body and the phase one 80mm f/2.8. I brought my CF card and Hassy 50. Will post some photos and thoughts tonight or tomorrow.
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If possible a couple of questions.
Did you find the AF motor both faster and smoother in operation?
How did the new style shutter work?
AF points, there are supposed to be (3) you can now assign, are they widely spaced across the viewfinder?
Thanks
Paul C
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The Af is definitely faster. Comparing it to an H2, the focus is faster and hunts less. It has a bright red Af assist light and focus is quick and accurate with center point focus. BUT, when using the side focus points, it hunts even on a well-lit object. Also, the selectable Af points do not light up in the viewfinder, you need to look at the lcd to determine which point is selected.
The Af points are spaced thusly:
[_______xXx_______]
PS - New lenses were announced, the whole lens line is being refurbished to higher specs. New Mamiya 150 f/2.8 D announced as well as some others I don't remember. Apparently their new 120 Makro D exceeds the 120 Zeiss in resolution and CA control, based on their tests...
If possible a couple of questions.
Did you find the AF motor both faster and smoother in operation?
How did the new style shutter work?
AF points, there are supposed to be (3) you can now assign, are they widely spaced across the viewfinder?
Thanks
Paul C
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194569\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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thanks for the info. I had hoped that they would give you all three points visible in the viewfinder.
I also meant to ask, did they have any info on the 45-90, either day of release or sug. retail?
Paul C
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The 45-90 f/4.5 D - They said Q3 '08 as of now.
The af points are almost on top of each other, not sure who would even use the side points.
thanks for the info. I had hoped that they would give you all three points visible in the viewfinder.
I also meant to ask, did they have any info on the 45-90, either day of release or sug. retail?
Paul C
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194621\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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The 45-90 f/4.5 D - They said Q3 '08 as of now.
The af points are almost on top of each other, not sure who would even use the side points.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194625\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's so funny how they can get these things so wrong sometimes. It's great to hear that the AF is good and accurate though, thats really good news.
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Thanks for the report. Did you notice if the shutter lag was improved over the previous models?
T
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The 45-90 f/4.5 D - They said Q3 '08 as of now.
The af points are almost on top of each other, not sure who would even use the side points.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194625\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It's glass, glass, glass.
I know most people want better AF, ok, and leaf shutters, ok, but fill the line with fast glass.
Mamiya previously 45mm 2.8's, 80mm 1.9's, 110 2.8's and make sure they are sharp wide open
110 is the hole in most of these lines especially since all of the sensors have a crop factor.
Everytime I even have a whsiper of a thought of changing cameras, I look at the lens lines and few are as fast as my old Contax's so I just don't bother.
For me it's the glass, no mirror slap and sharp wide open.
I may not shoot that much at F2.2 at a 60th but when I do it's a lifesaver.
JR
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Shutter lag has improved, the whole handling has improved, little details like a rubberized grip just make it "feel" better as opposed to hard plastic.
Coming from 35mm, 645 bodies are positively Flinstonian in their handling, but this new Phasone body is the nicest one yet. I just don't understand why they can't space out the AF points more. They don't even function well which is disappointing, worse than the outermost non-cross sensors of the 1DS2. Also, it's very awkward to change AF points, you have to hold down a tiny button and use the scroll wheel next to the top panel. Forget it if you have short sausage fingers. Also the 1/125 flash sync is an improvement over some bodies, but still, I was blowing out when using their profotos dialed down. Seems like these little things could make the body MUCH more usable, still, kudos for the various improvements.
Thanks for the report. Did you notice if the shutter lag was improved over the previous models?
T
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194636\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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From the mouth of the reps, they are dedicated to providing new glass, and glass that is optimized to provide resolution for up coming high pixel pitch backs.
I have to say the 150 f/2.8 D looks really enticing. And some of the photos from the new 28mm were stunning. No CA (I think they processed it through Capture 4.1 tho, not sure, should have asked)
It's glass, glass, glass.
I know most people want better AF, ok, and leaf shutters, ok, but fill the line with fast glass.
Mamiya previously 45mm 2.8's, 80mm 1.9's, 110 2.8's and make sure they are sharp wide open
110 is the hole in most of these lines especially since all of the sensors have a crop factor.
Everytime I even have a whsiper of a thought of changing cameras, I look at the lens lines and few are as fast as my old Contax's so I just don't bother.
For me it's the glass, no mirror slap and sharp wide open.
I may not shoot that much at F2.2 at a 60th but when I do it's a lifesaver.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194637\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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From the mouth of the reps, they are dedicated to providing new glass, and glass that is optimized to provide resolution for up coming high pixel pitch backs.
I have to say the 150 f/2.8 D looks really enticing. And some of the photos from the new 28mm were stunning. No CA (I think they processed it through Capture 4.1 tho, not sure, should have asked)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194647\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A 150 2.8 is fine, but way long on 1.16 and 1.26 cropped sensors. 140mm should be the max for that style of lens in digital and nothing is more useable than something in the 110 to 100mm range.
When you say upcoming high pixel pitched backs, it makes my stomach hurt. I can't imagine anyhtng needed over 30mpx and quite honestly hope I never see it. The only way I would accept a 40mpx back is if the chip was 6x7 and then I doubt it.
There is so many things medium format should address, faster glass, better previews, better lcd's easy hand holdable previewing and rocket fast software that the thought of going to 40 or 50mpx backs will completely insure I stay with my current cameras for a long time.
JR
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I agree with you, mpx count is fine, they need to focus on other things. The LCD on the 45+ back was shockingly primitive, pixelated and small. No live preview for checking focus, and the back got super warm. My CF card was borderline hot after shooting. (Although I was informed the back has live preview support when tethered.) I was truly impressed by was the incredible acuity of the images. Sharp, crystalline pixels that are wow. The Pebble Place blogs put it best with John's review of dMF.
A 150 2.8 is fine, but way long on 1.16 and 1.26 cropped sensors. 140mm should be the max for that style of lens in digital and nothing is more useable than something in the 110 to 100mm range.
When you say upcoming high pixel pitched backs, it makes my stomach hurt. I can't imagine anyhtng needed over 30mpx and quite honestly hope I never see it. The only way I would accept a 40mpx back is if the chip was 6x7 and then I doubt it.
There is so many things medium format should address, faster glass, better previews, better lcd's easy hand holdable previewing and rocket fast software that the thought of going to 40 or 50mpx backs will completely insure I stay with my current cameras for a long time.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194657\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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There is so many things medium format should address, faster glass, better previews, better lcd's easy hand holdable previewing and rocket fast software that the thought of going to 40 or 50mpx backs will completely insure I stay with my current cameras for a long time.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194657\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree, sometimes when I look at the Winder CW attached to my 503, I wonder if it would be possible that the first version was made of stone.
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It's so funny how they can get these things so wrong sometimes. It's great to hear that the AF is good and accurate though, thats really good news.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194630\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You can thank the marketing geniuses. You can bet they will be talking a lot about how this camera has three AF points compared to the competition's one. Even if the feature seems effectively useless.
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You can thank the marketing geniuses. You can bet they will be talking a lot about how this camera has three AF points compared to the competition's one. Even if the feature seems effectively useless.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194694\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Your may be under the false impression that these companies have large marketing departments, or for that matter have any marketing past one or two people.
Also don't think that anybody in these marketing "departments" tries to lie or even gets close to fibbing. They advertise the best attributes of their cameras and hope it goes noticed.
In fact if you've talked to any of the medium format companies R+D people you will find the same passion for improving the product that most of us have for improving our photography.
We all want more use from a camera, we all want more information, but it's easy (I've done this also) to complain about medium format without knowing the realities of the size of these companies.
Let's get real, medium format may be expensive, but it does exist and for that I'm glad, actually amazed.
Really, it's not that expensive. When you think each time you push a button you get a drum scanned image, it's quite amazing.
Photographers can be (to put it kindly) "thrifty" and especially "thrifty" when it comes to the buy in on equipment. It also fascinates me to see someone drive a $55,000 car, but owns no lights, not cameras, no grip and then complains about the costs.
Still, there is an effort from Mamiya, Hasselblad and Sinar and I appreciate it and don't for a moment think that if Mamiya and Phase can add more lenses, more features and keep the price below both of the compeitors H cameras then that will be good for our industry including Leaf and Sinar.
You have to also recognize that this is the only new camera that has a focal plane shutter which allows for a lot of different glass, and I like focal plane shutters.
Not to defend the Phase/Mamiya, because I haven't seen one yet, but even if the focus points are clustered close, 3 AF points are better than one. Heck if the Nikon D3 which has great autofocusing has most of the focusing points clustered in the center of the frame.
JR
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Your may be under the false impression that these companies have large marketing departments, or for that matter have any marketing past one or two people.
Also don't think that anybody in these marketing "departments" tries to lie or even gets close to fibbing. They advertise the best attributes of their cameras and hope it goes noticed.
In fact if you've talked to any of the medium format companies R+D people you will find the same passion for improving the product that most of us have for improving our photography.
We all want more use from a camera, we all want more information, but it's easy (I've done this also) to complain about medium format without knowing the realities of the size of these companies.
Let's get real, medium format may be expensive, but it does exist and for that I'm glad, actually amazed.
Really, it's not that expensive. When you think each time you push a button you get a drum scanned image, it's quite amazing.
Photographers can be (to put it kindly) "thrifty" and especially "thrifty" when it comes to the buy in on equipment. It also fascinates me to see someone drive a $55,000 car, but owns no lights, not cameras, no grip and then complains about the costs.
Still, there is an effort from Mamiya, Hasselblad and Sinar and I appreciate it and don't for a moment think that if Mamiya and Phase can add more lenses, more features and keep the price below both of the compeitors H cameras then that will be good for our industry including Leaf and Sinar.
You have to also recognize that this is the only new camera that has a focal plane shutter which allows for a lot of different glass, and I like focal plane shutters.
Not to defend the Phase/Mamiya, because I haven't seen one yet, but even if the focus points are clustered close, 3 AF points are better than one. Heck if the Nikon D3 which has great autofocusing has most of the focusing points clustered in the center of the frame.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194709\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why do you like focal plane shutters?
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Your may be under the false impression that these companies have large marketing departments, or for that matter have any marketing past one or two people.
Also don't think that anybody in these marketing "departments" tries to lie or even gets close to fibbing. They advertise the best attributes of their cameras and hope it goes noticed.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194709\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It only takes one marketing person to come up with this strategy. As for misleading marketing, I don't really want to open up the old Hasselblad 'full frame' debate but that was a prime example. But let's not go there...
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I think the shortcomings of the AFDIII come from the fact (OK, not fact but my supposition) that it was developed a long ago (pre-Cosmos), perhaps in 2003, and shelved due to cash flow concerns. All these new products (ZD back, AFDIII, 28mm) were probably developed or begun pre Cosmos, and were since revived.
I wonder who they bought the AF module from? If they could develop their own or get someone to OEM an AF system with AF points where they are needed, I would be excited. I mean REAL excited. I mean drive out to Melville and kiss Ulf on the mouth excited, and I'm straight.
Any word on pricing?
James:
I'm with you on the 100 - 110 lens range. My 150mm is useless with the P30+, even the Macro is too long. I almost went H for the 100 2.2.
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thanks for the info. I had hoped that they would give you all three points visible in the viewfinder.
I also meant to ask, did they have any info on the 45-90, either day of release or sug. retail?
Paul C
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194621\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have it on very good authority that the retail for the 45-90 will be in the $4300-4400 range. I'm told late June release, at the earliest.
Bill
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I have it on very good authority that the retail for the 45-90 will be in the $4300-4400 range. I'm told late June release, at the earliest.
Bill
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194747\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Wow.. Not Cheap by any means..
Where are the Leaf shutter lens...:+} Any news on those?
Snook
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As an information:
The Sinar Hy6 DOES NOT have a single AF point, BUT a "Cross Sensor Multi-Zone", which is quite different.
Thierry
Not to defend the Phase/Mamiya, because I haven't seen one yet, but even if the focus points are clustered close, 3 AF points are better than one.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194709\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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As an information:
The Sinar Hy6 DOES NOT have a single AF point, BUT a "Cross Sensor Multi-Zone", which is quite different.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194763\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What does that mean . . . One af sensor that moves around?
JR
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Why do you like focal plane shutters?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194711\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Because you can use almost any lens. We all know the look of the glass is more than sharpness, or the widest F stop. The Pentax 105 2.4 looks much different than the Hasselblad 110 F2 and mostly in transitonal areas rather than just pure falloff.
You can buy a lot of these lenses in the $200 to $600 range and a few Pentax lenses on the Contax pretty much gives you the look of an RZ.
JR
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Any word on pricing?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194743\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If you mean the Phase One camera, it will be ~ 4300 € before taxes in Sweden. That will include body with prisma (of course) and 80mm lens (no film magazine).
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How's the viewfinder? Is the magnification/brightness any better?
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Because you can use almost any lens. We all know the look of the glass is more than sharpness, or the widest F stop. The Pentax 105 2.4 looks much different than the Hasselblad 110 F2 and mostly in transitonal areas rather than just pure falloff.
You can buy a lot of these lenses in the $200 to $600 range and a few Pentax lenses on the Contax pretty much gives you the look of an RZ.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194849\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Do you use the Pentax lenses in stopped down mode?
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How's the viewfinder? Is the magnification/brightness any better?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194853\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not having side by side comparison, I can only say that it did not seem brighter. It was really hard to focus with the Hassy 50 f/2.8 and nail focus. Had to bracket 5-6 shots, especially since the dof is so narrow and the focusing ring has such a long throw and allows for so much precision. I don't know how you guys do it.
Regarding the three AF points, honestly, they are so super close together, I'm really not seeing the benefit. Combined with increased hunting, that unless improved by firmware, makes them useless. Also, there's no actual "point" just a large mask that looks sort of like this:
|_______
There is a circle in the middle and two brackets attached to the circle. I am assuming the focus point is in the middle of the circle? Or it's the entire circle? And the two other focus points are in the middle of the bracket? Or they are the entire bracket? I should have asked the rep more questions but other people were more aggressive with being able to insert themselves in conversation and I didn't want to interrupt.
On the positive side, the center AF point worked really well. I don't mean to take anything away from the progress they made on the camera.
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Not having side by side comparison, I can only say that it did not seem brighter. It was really hard to focus with the Hassy 50 f/2.8 and nail focus. Had to bracket 5-6 shots, especially since the dof is so narrow and the focusing ring has such a long throw and allows for so much precision. I don't know how you guys do it.
Regarding the three AF points, honestly, they are so super close together, I'm really not seeing the benefit. Combined with increased hunting, that unless improved by firmware, makes them useless. Also, there's no actual "point" just a large mask that looks sort of like this:
|_______
There is a circle in the middle and two brackets attached to the circle. I am assuming the focus point is in the middle of the circle? Or it's the entire circle? And the two other focus points are in the middle of the bracket? Or they are the entire bracket? I should have asked the rep more questions but other people were more aggressive with being able to insert themselves in conversation and I didn't want to interrupt.
On the positive side, the center AF point worked really well. I don't mean to take anything away from the progress they made on the camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194861\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
One good one is the most important thing for me. It's not like I use a camera like this when I'm running around or the model is doing so. I like to use the af to get focus and then when I have focus I turn the af off so it stays put so recomposing after finding focus is fine for me. Do you think the central af point is better than previous models?
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Unequivocably yes. That's why I didn't want to seem like I was disparaging the camera. The center point focused really well, even on dark objects, low contrast. I had problems with the H2 and zhurrr zhuurrr zhurrr, hunting.
One good one is the most important thing for me. It's not like I use a camera like this when I'm running around or the model is doing so. I like to use the af to get focus and then when I have focus I turn the af off so it stays put so recomposing after finding focus is fine for me. Do you think the central af point is better than previous models?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=194870\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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The circle in the middle with the two brackets also describes the current version. It sounds like there is no visible change.
Paul C