Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: MediumF on March 24, 2008, 08:21:17 am
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Hello all,
After having read so much about the Rolleiflex/Sinar/Leaf Hy6 on the net and seeing the first deliveries taking place, can anyone here give us more hands-on info? The LL Hy6 review was short and sweet, and not in depth. Would love to know more about all the nitty gritty.
The reason I want to know more is that I took the plunge and ordered an analogue Hy6 version, as my first step into MF after years of working with Leica The ability to have different backs available later when I get the cash collected also influenced me, as well as Schneider glass, my all time favorite. Hasselblad V had my interest for a long time, but I got cold feet every-time regarding cables and lens compatibility with backs. The Hy6 just seemed a perfect candidate.
Especially hands on info about the digital back/Hy6 combo would be fantastic to hear about.
Thanks to all in advance!
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Hi, Medium,
Welcome!
I haven't seen much here, but you can find Nicolas Claris' Hy6 experience postings over at http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forum...isplay.php?f=16 (http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16)
Best regards,
Brad
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Hello all,
After having read so much about the Rolleiflex/Sinar/Leaf Hy6 on the net and seeing the first deliveries taking place, can anyone here give us more hands-on info? The LL Hy6
...
Thanks to all in advance!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183897\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm working with Hy6 and e75LV since three mounths now. As I already said I didn't find another MFDB that can reach a film like look as Sinar + Blumbaer (Sinar + Capture Shop rendition is on the average with the other brands but ... ugly software!! let's hope for the upcoming Exposure).
I use it for furniture and interiors pictures so I never use AF but when I use it it doesn't seems to be great especially in low light conditions; Live video is a must for my work and it works great. It's a well built camera, probably some little adjustement have to be done in the future like the battery indicator wich is very tricky, anyway I'm very satisfied with this combo. I'm using the 40mm Super Angulon (I thought it was better about barrel distortion), the 60mm Curtagon (excellent but out of production), 80 AF (very good but not great AF) and 150mm Tele Xenar (excellent boeke but the closer distance from the subject is 1,4 mt.)
If you have any question ask me .. no problem to answer.
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80 AF (very good but not great AF)
Surely that's up to the camera not the lens?
and 150mm Tele Xenar (excellent boeke but the closer distance from the subject is 1,4 mt.)
If you have any question ask me .. no problem to answer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183941\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Have you tried the extension rings? There is a full set available which I often use for close-up work.
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Surely that's up to the camera not the lens?
...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183943\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not sure really, I'll have to check it better with my dealer
Have you tried the extension rings? There is a full set available which I often use for close-up work.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183943\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes I have the 34mm but then it's too much closer I'll have to take a real makro indeed
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Deleted
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Hi,
I have one Leaf AFi7 on order. After using it for a while, I would be happy to share some of my experience here.
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Deleted
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Hi, Medium,
Welcome!
I haven't seen much here, but you can find Nicolas Claris' Hy6 experience postings over at http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forum...isplay.php?f=16 (http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16)
Best regards,
Brad
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183926\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Brad, this is a great link!
Cheers,
Theo
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I'm working with Hy6 and e75LV since three mounths now. As I already said I didn't find another MFDB that can reach a film like look as Sinar + Blumbaer (Sinar + Capture Shop rendition is on the average with the other brands but ... ugly software!! let's hope for the upcoming Exposure).
I use it for furniture and interiors pictures so I never use AF but when I use it it doesn't seems to be great especially in low light conditions; Live video is a must for my work and it works great. It's a well built camera, probably some little adjustement have to be done in the future like the battery indicator wich is very tricky, anyway I'm very satisfied with this combo. I'm using the 40mm Super Angulon (I thought it was better about barrel distortion), the 60mm Curtagon (excellent but out of production), 80 AF (very good but not great AF) and 150mm Tele Xenar (excellent boeke but the closer distance from the subject is 1,4 mt.)
If you have any question ask me .. no problem to answer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=183941\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Favalim for the info here.
What do you think about the Sinar menu system? Some people complain that it is not as clear and easy to use as the Phase One menu system in reality use but I have no idea if that is true nor very important.
Also: the new Schneider AFd lenses as supposed to be better due to higher tolerances in their assembly; any ideas or comments on that? Might just be sales PR....
Thanks,
Theo
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Thanks Favalim for the info here.
What do you think about the Sinar menu system? Some people complain that it is not as clear and easy to use as the Phase One menu system in reality use but I have no idea if that is true nor very important.
Also: the new Schneider AFd lenses as supposed to be better due to higher tolerances in their assembly; any ideas or comments on that? Might just be sales PR....
Thanks,
Theo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I could agree about the menu not very easy to use but it is a minor issue to me. About the Afd lenses I'm not the one who can give you the right comment: I just use the 80mm as Afd lens and maybe it's not a good example as it doesn't work that great; If somebody has tried the 80 Afd Schneider on Hy6 or Afi please let us know something.
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Thanks Brad, this is a great link!
Cheers,
Theo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184173\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
After checking this hands on report, I think that the quote I saw on Internet somewhere by a person who said the Hy6 was "Viktor Hasselblad's wetdream" was right. I am flabbergasted by the results shown here....I still love and use film, but when I see this report I just think digital has really 'grown up' the past years and reached a really amazing level. The combination of a flexible camera with Schneider/Zeiss glass is what I have dreamed about...Now to start saving for that expensive back! Will have to be satisfied enjoying "wet digital dreams" until then....
Cheers,
Theo
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After a few days with the Hy6's menus I finally got the hang of them. Each control (shutter/focus mode/flash/meter) has a sub-menu which is accessed by its own local button. Now I'm used to it, it feels very logical, like a mac does.
I've been working out doors recently and the Hy6 performed very well in -4 degree conditions last weekend, better than I did in fact. Even though I was wearing gloves the wind chill rendered my hands into blocks of ice within minutes - ouch! My consolation was that the pictures turned out excellent even if the client didn't go for them in the end. Such is life.
I like this camera a lot. Well worth the wait.
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After a few days with the Hy6's menus I finally got the hang of them. Each control (shutter/focus mode/flash/meter) has a sub-menu which is accessed by its own local button. Now I'm used to it, it feels very logical, like a mac does.
I've been working out doors recently and the Hy6 performed very well in -4 degree conditions last weekend, better than I did in fact. Even though I was wearing gloves the wind chill rendered my hands into blocks of ice within minutes - ouch! My consolation was that the pictures turned out excellent even if the client didn't go for them in the end. Such is life.
I like this camera a lot. Well worth the wait.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184465\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Carl, wich lens did you use? what about the AF performance?
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I really hope we'll see PhaseOne backs on the Rolleiflex Hy6 one day, being confined to leaf and sinar is a no-go for me.
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I really hope we'll see PhaseOne backs on the Rolleiflex Hy6 one day, being confined to leaf and sinar is a no-go for me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184506\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Seconded.
Edmund
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Carl, wich lens did you use? what about the AF performance?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184501\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't have any AF lenses. I've never really got MF/AF as the Rollei's are such easy cameras to focus with manually. I do have 10 manual focus lenses though - all very solid!
I used a Carl Zeiss 250mm Sonnar on a Schneider Longar 1.4 teleconverter as the subject (a decaying fortress in the North Sea) was quite a distance away.
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I really hope we'll see PhaseOne backs on the Rolleiflex Hy6 one day, being confined to leaf and sinar is a no-go for me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184506\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi I think this QUESTION OR WISH has been gone over & over for more than a year now! I cannot see Sinar allowing PO on board. Sinar is trying to increase market share in the MFD market not loose it. Sinar owns the Hy6 & has allowed Leaf on board.
Denis
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Hi I think this QUESTION OR WISH has been gone over & over for more than a year now! I cannot see Sinar allowing PO on board. Sinar is trying to increase market share in the MFD market not loose it. Sinar owns the Hy6 & has allowed Leaf on board.
Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184648\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Denis,
I hope you are wrong as I'd also like to see a Phase or Imacon back on the Hy6. But I have to also be honest - I want the Hy6 with a 48mm square sensor (that I can program the crop on without rotating or use square and a viewfinder that darkens to the crop I have programed) and this back will do ISO 1600 and at least 2 frames/sec and a 10 minute exposure.
Maybe I'm wrong but since Sinar/Jenoptic have invested into Franke and Heidecke then they would make some money just selling camera and lenses. It's only Leaf that has nothing to gain and only to loose by PhaseOne coming to the party.
Carl,
Since you have stated you have 10 lenses, can I ask you which are your favorites? I've got 8 now myself but use the 110mm most followed by the 180.
Eric
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Hi Denis,
I hope you are wrong as I'd also like to see a Phase or Imacon back on the Hy6. But I have to also be honest - I want the Hy6 with a 48mm square sensor (that I can program the crop on without rotating or use square and a viewfinder that darkens to the crop I have programed) and this back will do ISO 1600 and at least 2 frames/sec and a 10 minute exposure.
I hope you realize how extremely expensive this would be. I don't think there is a price point which could both turn a profit and which would be affordable. In other words, even if a back manufacturer made it, and the price was $50K, they would be lucky to sell more than one or two and would be looking at a serious loss. You would have to commission a one-off and then don't expect much change from a million
This might change once sensor production costs drop by 80% or more. Until then most people will be happy just to rotate the back and forego the square option.
Maybe I'm wrong but since Sinar/Jenoptic have invested into Franke and Heidecke then they would make some money just selling camera and lenses.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184693\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As far as I know, F&H is quite independent from Jenoptik so unless there is a contractual deal, F&H will keep the profits to themselves.
It all boils down to how much Phase is prepared to pay in license fees per back they sell in Hy6 mount. I'm sure there's a price at which Jenoptik would say yes (unless they are barred from doing so by contract with Leaf, etc).
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Unless you could use a phase back on it I don't see who actually buys the Rolleiflex version. Are people actually buying new camera platforms today for use with film?
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Unless you could use a phase back on it I don't see who actually buys the Rolleiflex version. Are people actually buying new camera platforms today for use with film?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184722\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Relatively "poor" fine art photographers interested in the highest quality for the buck might well consider film. After all, medium and large format is all about quality no? $30 grand ain't chump change. And consider that in a year that 30 grand outfit is worth 20 grand. Might pay to wait a year and shoot that old school stuff for awhile. If you are not a high production commercial photographer or independently wealthy or in some lucrative other profession then economics would suggest shooting film.
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EPd,
Thanks for keeping us on track here. Do you know how long the wait list is for a Hy6 currently or how many months of production are already committed to standing orders?
And perhaps you would also know if one were to buy a film camera and let's say hypothetically a 3rd party made an adapter that enabled a digital back to be fit, if that would break any laws or anything like that?
Thanks,
Eric
Keep the facts straight, please. There are two crucial players in the Hy6 field: Jenoptik (NOT Sinar or Leaf), who owns the rights to sell licenses for the Hy6 and Franke & Heidecke, who makes the cameras (and is allowed to sell bodies with film backs under their own label). Jenoptik is to decide who can be on the Hy6 with a DB, although they may be bound by earlier contracts with the other participants.
Currently, if you want to use the Rolleiflex glass (Schneider and Zeiss) with a Phase One back the best choice is to buy a Rolleiflex 6008AF. That camera is still a very capable product, although not as light and comfortable as the Hy6. If you want to take the chance you might switch to the Hy6 later on, when Phase would be a participant on that platform too. All your precious glass will be fully compatible.
Jenoptik has not invested in F&H, just in the development of the Hy6. They have a contract with F&H dictating to buy a certain amount of Hy6/AFi bodies from them, together with a certain amount of lenses and accessories. Selling these will also generate some profit for Jenoptik. However, given the current waiting list for Hy6 cameras there is no urgent reason for Jenoptik yet to turn to Phase in order to get rid of their contractual pile of stuff. Paradoxically only not buying a Hy6 might help Phase coming to the platform.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184870\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Relatively "poor" fine art photographers interested in the highest quality for the buck might well consider film.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184838\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Perhaps, but would they really spend thousands on a brand new 645/6x6 camera for film when there are so many decent film cameras out there already (e.g. Rollei 6008AF, Contax 645)? Large format cameras are much cheaper on the used market and are even better suited to fine art.
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Keep the facts straight, please. There are two crucial players in the Hy6 field: Jenoptik (NOT Sinar or Leaf), who owns the rights to sell licenses for the Hy6 and Franke & Heidecke, who makes the cameras (and is allowed to sell bodies with film backs under their own label). Jenoptik is to decide who can be on the Hy6 with a DB, although they may be bound by earlier contracts with the other participants.
Currently, if you want to use the Rolleiflex glass (Schneider and Zeiss) with a Phase One back the best choice is to buy a Rolleiflex 6008AF. That camera is still a very capable product, although not as light and comfortable as the Hy6. If you want to take the chance you might switch to the Hy6 later on, when Phase would be a participant on that platform too. All your precious glass will be fully compatible.
Jenoptik has not invested in F&H, just in the development of the Hy6. They have a contract with F&H dictating to buy a certain amount of Hy6/AFi bodies from them, together with a certain amount of lenses and accessories. Selling these will also generate some profit for Jenoptik. However, given the current waiting list for Hy6 cameras there is no urgent reason for Jenoptik yet to turn to Phase in order to get rid of their contractual pile of stuff. Paradoxically only not buying a Hy6 might help Phase coming to the platform.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184870\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi
Ask Thierry he would know. I know the agents here in Sydney for Sinar & Leaf. This debate has gone on long enough.
Denis
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Unless you could use a phase back on it I don't see who actually buys the Rolleiflex version. Are people actually buying new camera platforms today for use with film?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184722\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes they are! My friendly neighbourhood camera shop just delivered a new Hasselblad 503CW film version to a customer.
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hi Denis,
I won't intervene on this issue anymore: enough has been said, enough has been argued, and all facts have been communicated (by official press release) and are well known.
Just one remark to EPd's comment about Sinar not having its words to say concerning the Hy6 camera: Sinar AG is 100% owed by Jenoptik AG and is fully integrated in and part of the Jenotpik AG: everybody can throw his own consequences.
Best regards,
Thierry
Hi
Ask Thierry he would know. I know the agents here in Sydney for Sinar & Leaf. This debate has gone on long enough.
Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184911\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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hi Denis,
I won't intervene on this issue anymore: enough has been said, enough has been argued, and all facts have been communicated (by official press release) and are well known.
Just one remark to EPd's comment about Sinar not having its words to say concerning the Hy6 camera: Sinar AG is 100% owed by Jenoptik AG and is fully integrated in and part of the Jenotpik AG: everybody can throw his own consequences.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184913\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I believe Theirry has some kind of Dick Tracy device hooked to his watch and everytime anyone in the world posts imformation about the HY6, he is on his computer to "clairify" the "truth" and then let us "throw our own consequences"?
Well, I'll throw out some consequences.
Medium format more than anything needs wider acceptence and more market penetration.
In fact medium format needs to get back a portion of the billion or so photographers that were forced to lay down their RZ's and Hasselblad V's and pick up a Canon 1ds mark 1, 2, 3, (and I'm sure 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, ....) because when the first Canon hit the shelf (and by the way it hit the shelfs in every store in the world, vs. the medium format model of "call your secret specialized digital dealer for information, regarding pricing, delivery and use".
Honestly this camera makes me smile, or laugh, or almost just shake my head in disbelief.
Here is a camera that is so close to being a world standard. A combination of a V system, an RZ and hand held autofocus camera, but as of today you can't rotate the back without taking it off and I don't care if you work with a foam pillow under your feet, the idea of switching back and forth on location, under pressure is more than my heart can take.
Then of course there is all those beautiful lenses, but nothing wider than 40 which with even a 1.14 crop is pretty tight and then the price.
I know good glass is expensive, (see the cinema world or the Leica price list for comparision), but I also know if they could sell more of these cameras and more of these lenses, they could lower the price of all of it.
That is just the basics of economy of scale.
I have never met a photographer than wanted less options and wanted to spend more money for equipment, but Sinar, Leaf and Hasselblad are not doing us any favors by limiting the sale of anything.
Actualy medium format needs to get out of the labs and onto the street and see what we do with these cameras day in day out and more importantly find any way possible to widen their market.
Recently I added a P21+ and though at 18mp it seems like a downgrade from my previouis A-22 and my current P30+ I love this back. It shoots at 800 iso, looks like film and cost's almost 1/3 of my original Aptus.
If this back had been availble for 10 grand the day the 1ds was announced, I am positive there would be a lot less Canon users on the street.
If the HY6 was available in all mounts and the lenses were less than the $4,999 price point I am also sure that a lot of people, inclduing myself would take a serious look at it.
Still, I'm not going anywhere near a proprietary expensive camera. I've been down that road where one back manufacturer starts having software issues and I know how crippiling that can be to our workflow and available time and it's one thing to take a many thousand dollar loss on changing the capture device, but to also put a $25,000 camera system on the shelf because it just won't work with any back is something few of us want to contemplate.
And Theirry I'm not just picking on you so please don't get your "feelings" hurt, because it may be just the language barrier, but you seem to get your feelings hurt quite easily, though today you can walk into a store in New York and buy a brand new Rollei Hy6 and though you are positive it will never work on a Phase or Imacon back, there are a lot of people saying that will eventually happen.
And Theirry, you seem to want to imply that Sinar had influence into Jenoptik in limiting this camera to just two digital back makers, but if it was me, I would keep that thought out of the public domain.
Basically, the real truth about professional photography is the costs keep going up, but the fees and expenses we charge are not climbing in the same relationship.
Don't think for a minute than all of us dont long for the days of being able to use the camera and "film" of our choice, without thought or worry about if it will be compatible, or obsolete, or a manufacturer will just change their mind tomorrow and phase our camera out of existence (see Hasselblad).
Also don't think that if we invest in lenses and bodies, regardless of price point that we don't want to see them continue to be used well into the next decade.
So the manfacturers can play all the games they want, limit availability, promise upgrades in quarters, 2, 3, 4, and then miss their own self imposed deadlines by months (even years) but once again, don't think that this doesn't impact medium format sales.
You have to remember that most of us are independent business owners (undersocre the word independent) and don't take well to being told what we have to do and if most of us had our way, our back of choice would go on any camera with just a snap and a click.
JR
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I believe Theirry has some kind of Dick Tracy device hooked to his watch and everytime anyone in the world posts imformation about the HY6, he is on his computer to "clairify" the "truth" and then let us "throw our own consequences"?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No James, I don't have a device for this, just a month off and out of usual duties: so whenever my little daughter of 2 weeks let me some time, I'll spend it here on my computer, and checking/controlling what you (or others) are writing!
Here is a camera that is so close to being a world standard. A combination of a V system, an RZ and hand held autofocus camera, but as of today you can't rotate the back without taking it off and I don't care if you work with a foam pillow under your feet, the idea of switching back and forth on location, under pressure is more than my heart can take.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The revolving adapter is available.
Actualy medium format needs to get out of the labs and onto the street and see what we do with these cameras day in day out and more importantly find any way possible to widen their market.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sure, I agree: that's also why I am here reading you. Don't think that I am only here to read/answer. I appreciate market feedbacks and it does not get lost.
If the HY6 was available in all mounts and the lenses were less than the $4,999 price point I am also sure that a lot of people, inclduing myself would take a serious look at it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I suppose you are mentioning the new AFD lenses: their recommended enduser price goes from Euro 1'900.- (2.8/80mm AFD) to Euro 4'570.- (4.6/60-140 AFD).
And Theirry I'm not just picking on you so please don't get your "feelings" hurt, because it may be just the language barrier, but you seem to get your feelings hurt quite easily,...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am much less hurt that one may believe: may be too much looking for the true information coming through and very concerned by it, yes.
though today you can walk into a store in New York and buy a brand new Rollei Hy6 and though you are positive it will never work on a Phase or Imacon back, there are a lot of people saying that will eventually happen.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That might well be. I've never said that it won't happen. I honestly don't know this and don't want to speculate on it. Fact is that it has been decided that Leaf and Sinar are on this project, together with F&H: I am just trying to inform how the situation is now, and cannot nor do I want to speculate what the future will be. I don't think you can find any information from Sinar or me saying that it won't happen.
And Theirry, you seem to want to imply that Sinar had influence into Jenoptik in limiting this camera to just two digital back makers, but if it was me, I would keep that thought out of the public domain.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, I am not implying such, but simply presenting the Sinar company under a different eye, instead of suggesting each time that for that particular project Sinar had no clue or nothing to do with it, nor any influence on what came out.
Basically, the real truth about professional photography is the costs keep going up, but the fees and expenses we charge are not climbing in the same relationship.
Don't think for a minute than all of us dont long for the days of being able to use the camera and "film" of our choice, without thought or worry about if it will be compatible, or obsolete, or a manufacturer will just change their mind tomorrow and phase our camera out of existence (see Hasselblad).
Also don't think that if we invest in lenses and bodies, regardless of price point that we don't want to see them continue to be used well into the next decade.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I understand this well, James, and I agree. I do believe that we keep this in mind and think about it very seriously each time.
So the manfacturers can play all the games they want, limit availability, promise upgrades in quarters, 2, 3, 4, and then miss their own self imposed deadlines by months (even years) but once again, don't think that this doesn't impact medium format sales.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It does, obviously.
You have to remember that most of us are independent business owners (undersocre the word independent) and don't take well to being told what we have to do and if most of us had our way, our back of choice would go on any camera with just a snap and a click.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Agreed, I would neither like to be told what to do. I understand your point.
Best regards,
Thierry
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I would. Even though I prefer to work with film this doesn't mean I don't like to work with the most modern cameras. And when you want the full 6x6 square there isn't much else in this field than a Rolleiflex 6008AF or Hy6. And the Hy6 is the most portable of these two, so especially for travel work it might have the edge.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184898\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
unless your fine art requires the fastest autofocus available in the largest film with autofocus possible (hy6) how would the newest camera improve over an older one?...v series for 66 square manual focus / contax 645 for 645 autofocus / 54 for best image quality...
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Unless you could use a phase back on it I don't see who actually buys the Rolleiflex version. Are people actually buying new camera platforms today for use with film?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184722\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes. And, to quote bryanyc, I consider myself "a relatively poor fine art photographer interested in the highest quality for the buck" that cannot consider the adquisition of an outreageously expensive medium format digital back right now. So, I have two options, being option one to take the 1dsMkIII route and being option two to go after a medium format camera, Velvia 50 and drum scan (saving meanwhile some money for the DB). Another option for me could be waiting for the Leica R10 (I'm using the R9/DMR combo along with my Canon and Olympus gear) but, after reading the last interview with mister Kauffman, it's not clear what it's going to happen with the "new" (?) R system.
Then, and after considering what's out there in the medium format arena, the Rollei/Sinar Hy6 seems to be the right choice for me. I don't like the Hasselblad H system: too expensive, too closed, no square film or digital option (no film option at all with the H3DII), and although my first choice was the V system I quickly discarded it... Of course I like the Zeiss glass and the 503CW is a beautiful camera, but: no AF, no built-in metering, and less than perfect integration with digital. In the long term the V system seems to be a dead end. The Mamiya could be the right value for the money option at this moment but what I've readed about the ZD back doesn't feel very inspiring (and, again, no square fim format) . In any case, the Mamiya/Phase One merging could offer some interesting alternative in the near future.
I'm just waiting for an answer about the final price of the Rollei/Sinar Hy6, the Schneider Xenotar 80mm f/2.8 and the film back, from my local distributor here in Spain.
This is my first post here so, hi, everybody.
Carlos-
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I suppose you are mentioning the new AFD lenses: their recommended enduser price goes from Euro 1'900.- (2.8/80mm AFD) to Euro 4'570.- (4.6/60-140 AFD
Best regards,
Thierry
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=184997\")
Thierry,
don't believe the 1'900.- (2.8/80mm AFD) price is going to make your prospective users that happy - that's 4x of the Mamiya price, at least .
[a href=\"http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/182423-REG/Mamiya_210_604_80mm_f_2_8_LENS_for.html]http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1824...8_LENS_for.html[/url]
Edmund
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Deleted
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Yes they are! My friendly neighbourhood camera shop just delivered a new Hasselblad 503CW film version to a customer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184912\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Let's say if you have invested tens of thousand dollars in a high end digital system, the moment the digital back failed, the film is the least expensive back-up, especially in location. Or, when you are running on the last battery, you can still use film for time-exposure and not to worry. Film sales is clearly decreasing, but still sells to people who shot with it, and they are photographers too. I guess we do not define photographer as people who shoot with digital. I did not use film for the last 2 years but I can never say I will not use it.
I adore the system for Hy6/Sinar, or for that matter, Hy6/Leaf is open, because when the back is independent from the back or vice versa, there is less chance to get wrong. At least I believe so, I also use H3D39 and in quite some occasions there is communication errors between camera and back and I need to remove the battery to reset the camera. The closed or fully integrated system to me has a problem that the camera becomes a small computer, while for digital back that capture only raw, really we just need F stops, speed and aperture.
My own experience using the Hy6 and e75LV is that the camera is solid, well balance, AF is among the quickest I have ever use (H3D39, Contax and etc.) interface is straight forward, all the setting is easy to control, even for one wears glove shooting in sub-zero outdoor. The fact that the back can rotate is to me a very valuable option, it is an option because the user can decide to use it or not. The camera is designed in a way that it is no less difficult to simply turn the hand/camera and shoot, or if needed, remove the back and turn it around, which I did often in studio, and a lot less often when it is outdoor. I don't understand why there is debate on this, because it is just like AF confirmation beep on the camera that you can always turn off if you don't like it, but there are indeed people like the feature, I am not, but I am not bothered by those. But I have no doubt if I ever get the rotating back, I will use as often as I can, and why not?
I love the Hy6/Sinar combination for another very simple reason, it provides room to grow. And it still possessed the largest array of lenses for medium format today, with an option for AF with AF lenses, and full digital link to digital backs. May be the day to see a larger than 36X48mm sensor is uncertain, I may be somewhat upset for not able to get the extra pixels, and the freedom of square format. And why not?? I think as photographer we need to look at the positive side that today there is such a system alive and performing well, we can buy it and use it, or at least we can appreciate it.
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I'm just waiting for an answer about the final price of the Rollei/Sinar Hy6, the Schneider Xenotar 80mm f/2.8 and the film back, from my local distributor here in Spain.
This is my first post here so, hi, everybody.
Carlos-
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185012\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Carlos,
No idea what kind of work you do (but you mention velvia 50 so pehaps it is not fast moving?) of course but if you're looking for a square 66 mf body with film back and 80mm lens you really can pick up a v series for about £500.
Now of course if af, etc is essential for your art work the it would need to be the hy6 or an older rollei 6000 camera (ask fotoz about them for advice) but remember that any film based used medium format camera you by today you'll be able to sell for the same in a year or so you do not have to wory too much about future investment, digital ready etc.
i'm not suer how much a new hy6 with film back and 80mm lens is but the difference between it and the used prices of the older alternatives add up to a lot of film, processing and scanning.
Many artists today, even those working with people and very successfull, use large format film (54 10x8 etc) so again depending on your requirements that could be an avenue to look at...see gregory crewdson, jeff wall, etc
Marc
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Thierry,
don't believe the 1'900.- (2.8/80mm AFD) price is going to make your prospective users that happy - that's 4x of the Mamiya price, at least .
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1824...8_LENS_for.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/182423-REG/Mamiya_210_604_80mm_f_2_8_LENS_for.html)
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185017\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
And a Leica Summilux-R 50 f/1.4 is 2.495 euros... Almost 600 euros more expensive than the Scheneider Xenotar 80 and, at least, eight times more expensive than a Canon EF 50 f/1.4... So, everything is relative, Edmund...
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Thierry,
don't believe the 1'900.- (2.8/80mm AFD) price is going to make your prospective users that happy - that's 4x of the Mamiya price, at least .
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1824...8_LENS_for.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/182423-REG/Mamiya_210_604_80mm_f_2_8_LENS_for.html)
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185017\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Let me be clearer, Thierry, Mamiya can sell a whole ZD look-alike for around Euro 5K. In the long term Sinar will have pricing problems.
Edmund
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And a Leica Summilux-R 50 f/1.4 is 2.495 euros... Almost 600 euros more expensive than the Scheneider Xenotar 80 and, at least, eight times more expensive than a Canon EF 50 f/1.4... So, everything is relative, Edmund...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185030\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thing is they don't have any low-price solution and when the digital back prices are going to fall those lens prices are going to start looking horrid. Canon has a mix of lenses, from 1x to 10x pricing at the 50mm range for instance. I use the 50/1.8 regularly, it costs about $100 and it works fine.
I don' want to say that pricing is everything, but even Leica have a Summitar range which is affordable, and they are certanly not in the business of philantropy.
Edmund
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Thing is they don't have any low-price solution and when the digital back prices are going to fall those lens prices are going to start looking horrid.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185038\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Fortunately there are many good lenses for this system on the used market. I picked up my 80mm f2.8 PQS in perfect condition on ebay for $450. 50mm and 150mm lenses are also not expensive and not hard to find on the used market. You could probably pick up all 3 for $1500-2000 on the used market, and those 3 lenses can already take you a long way. All manual focus of course. I haven't looked at the prices of the used AF lenses.
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Fortunately there are many good lenses for this system on the used market. I picked up my 80mm f2.8 PQS in perfect condition on ebay for $450. 50mm and 150mm lenses are also not expensive and not hard to find on the used market. You could probably pick up all 3 for $1500-2000 on the used market, and those 3 lenses can already take you a long way. All manual focus of course. I haven't looked at the prices of the used AF lenses.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185044\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's my plan - to buy used lenses and migrate to the Hy6 if and when it makes sense. But I've tried to buy the best ones used that I could find and have paid higher amounts. My 110mm f/2.0 was a demo for example but still close to half the new price. Thierry has suggested that the AFD lenses are made to higher tolerances than the older lenses but if they all out resolve my back (as it appears they do) then will it really matter?
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James, well said!
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Edmund,
I just informed about the prices, from the "cheapest" to the most "expensive": there was a price indication suggesting they cost all US$ 4'999 and above.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
don't believe the 1'900.- (2.8/80mm AFD) price is going to make your prospective users that happy - that's 4x of the Mamiya price, at least .
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1824...8_LENS_for.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/182423-REG/Mamiya_210_604_80mm_f_2_8_LENS_for.html)
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185017\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I'm out'a here - don't understand the whole MF market anymore
Anyway, I tested the 1Ds3 this week and was amazed at how small and light this camera is - after MF it felt like a Minox
Edmund
Edmund,
I just informed about the prices fro the "cheapest" to the most "expensive": there was a price indication suggesting they cost all US$ 4'999 and above.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185102\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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... or try a Lumix 10 MPx: it is light too!
I can carry mine while holding my daughter.
Thierry
I'm out'a here - don't understand the whole MF market anymore
Anyway, I tested the 1Ds3 this week and was amazed at how small and light this camera is - after MF it felt like a Minox
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185103\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Yes. And, to quote bryanyc, I consider myself "a relatively poor fine art photographer interested in the highest quality for the buck" that cannot consider the adquisition of an outreageously expensive medium format digital back right now. So, I have two options, being option one to take the 1dsMkIII route and being option two to go after a medium format camera, Velvia 50 and drum scan (saving meanwhile some money for the DB). Another option for me could be waiting for the Leica R10 (I'm using the R9/DMR combo along with my Canon and Olympus gear) but, after reading the last interview with mister Kauffman, it's not clear what it's going to happen with the "new" (?) R system.
Then, and after considering what's out there in the medium format arena, the Rollei/Sinar Hy6 seems to be the right choice for me. I don't like the Hasselblad H system: too expensive, too closed, no square film or digital option (no film option at all with the H3DII), and although my first choice was the V system I quickly discarded it... Of course I like the Zeiss glass and the 503CW is a beautiful camera, but: no AF, no built-in metering, and less than perfect integration with digital. In the long term the V system seems to be a dead end. The Mamiya could be the right value for the money option at this moment but what I've readed about the ZD back doesn't feel very inspiring (and, again, no square fim format) . In any case, the Mamiya/Phase One merging could offer some interesting alternative in the near future.
I'm just waiting for an answer about the final price of the Rollei/Sinar Hy6, the Schneider Xenotar 80mm f/2.8 and the film back, from my local distributor here in Spain.
This is my first post here so, hi, everybody.
Carlos-
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185012\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hola Carlos y bienvenido.
El precio estimado en Europa es más o menos 6500 Euros + tasas:
- Cuerpo de cámara con visor.
- Objetivo autofocus 80mm (de hecho te ahorrarías 1.900 € si compras uno manual usado)
- Adaptador para casette de película.
- Casette de película 645. El de 6x6 no está disponible aún.
Yo he considerado esta cámara también pro sólo ve desventajas comparada a mi 503CW. Precio, accesorios...
Now in english:
The price I've got from the dealers here in Sweden is ~6500 € + taxes (25% here in Sweden).
This includes:
- Camera body with wlf: ~3.200 € (plus taxes)
- 80mm lens: ~2000 € (plus taxes)
- Film mag adapter plate.
- Film mag 645 (6x6 not available yet)
/Salu2
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For the record I can say that my 503CW with three lenses a H20 and a P20 costed me about 8.000 €, so I supose the difference is there...
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... or try a Lumix 10 MPx: it is light too!
I can carry mine while holding my daughter.
Thierry
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=185105\")
To me this is how you sell a camera, especially a new system.
[a href=\"http://www.red.com/store]http://www.red.com/store[/url]
Listed here is everything you need to buy, know and price to get into 4k film quality cinema.
No astericks of product to come, no call the dealer pricing, no waiting.
In fact the whole red site has a full forum with the good and the bad, shows major work that was just completed with the system and once again pricing.
Theirry, go to the Sinar site and find this information abou the HY6. Do you know how many potential buyers write on these forums the words "I'm waiting on pricing and availability from my dealer".
What I really don't understand is the price model of this vs. most medium format cameras.
How can a full 4k cinema digital body clock in at $17,500 but a still digital back can easily go to 30 grand and it is only the mid range digital backs that go for under 20k?
Is it economy of scale, is it dealer markup, or is the price of medium format, especially for something like the HY6 just because the expecations are to sell less product so the pricing must be high to recover the costs?
You see it on this forum all the time, people scouring e-bay, KEH and everywhere to find lens deals so they can keep their investment smart.
There is something to be said about knowing how much, when and where.
I've done the thing of walking into one of the U.S.'s largest camera stores dead set on buying a medium format camera, only to leave because at the time they had nothing to show, nothing that was available at the moment.
Actually, the old Contax site had more information on it than most of the mediuum format maker's sites and since Contax is gone it just took one more click to KEH to find everything I needed.
Your company isn't alone in this as even Phase with their new announced 645 just showed one lens, no comprehensive pricing, no full accessories page, etc. etc.
Also notice one other thing about the Red camera, there is no mention of this deal only good until March 2008.
Why does medium format always offer deals that are time stamped and I guess that would be ok if the moment you wrote the check the product shipped, but that is not always the case.
I don't know any photographer that can tell a client they have to wait to shoot their job because the camera isn't ready to ship.
Personally, I believe the company that wins in the camera wars is the company that offers everything at the best price point that can be purchased immediatly, with full knowledge of what is to come in the future, how much and when.
Medium format has it all backwards. Why is it that every medium format owner I know owns a Canon as a backup. Actually, the pricing, availaibity, speed (mostly pricing) have almost insured that anyone owning a digital back must buy a Canon.
The company that can change that premise to the thought of anyone considering a high end dslr, must own a digital back will do well.
JR
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hi James,
I'll try to give my answer just on the below "question/remarks", and leave the rest for meditation at Sinar.
While I honestly have to say that I fully understand all you are saying, I must also add that it isn't that easy as you describe it. In other words, the "way to get there" is absolutely right, but the factors influencing it are much more complicated for MF players. I don't want to pretend that we do it right, but at least we have to "play" carefully: risks do sometimes (if not often) pay, but can be also killing.
I do believe also that if price reductions or lower prices would be possible, then they would be available in the market, from MF players.
A few facts that influence the pricing (currently and in the past), not necessarily in an order of importance:
- Whatever people may thing: this business is high-end technology, with a lot of qualified manpower behind.
- Each company has a structure (and investments, whatever these are) asking for a minimum gross margin to break-even at the very least, for not closing and disappearing from the market, or usually to generate a minimum of profit to make it a reason to pursue this business.
- I have said it before, in earlier posts: when at the beginning of digital the hardware in general and the sensor in particular were representing the highest costs in a digital back, today this is not longer the case. Software development and support has taken over here and do represent a non-neglectful if not the major part of the production costs. Speaking about Sinar, a team of several SW people are working continuously on it.
- Support/warranty issues are to be calculated as well: Sinar "offers" a STANDARD 3-year warranty included in the purchase price, but somehow it has to be paid anyway. When a digital back comes in repair, there is not just an electronic component being changed: in most cases repairs or servicing do involve many tests and controls (before repair to address the problem, and after repair to check) involving a few persons and taking many hours.
- Market potential: although your model of reducing the price to increase market potential makes sense, there is currently a certain potential and we have to count with it.
- Finally, and I believe this is the same with other MF players, a huge amount of money is invested back in R&D, to be able to sustain the rhythm in this field.
I truly believe that MF pricing is at the level it can be, without excessive margins, neither for the manufacturers like Sinar, nor for the distributors (for other reasons). I do also honestly believe, that whenever price reduction is possible, it is done.
Best regards,
Thierry
What I really don't understand is the price model of this vs. most medium format cameras.
How can a full 4k cinema digital body clock in at $17,500 but a still digital back can easily go to 30 grand and it is only the mid range digital backs that go for under 20k?
Is it economy of scale, is it dealer markup, or is the price of medium format, especially for something like the HY6 just because the expecations are to sell less product so the pricing must be high to recover the costs?
You see it on this forum all the time, people scouring e-bay, KEH and everywhere to find lens deals so they can keep their investment smart.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185208\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I for one bought my entire kit second hand.. 2x Mamiya 645AFD, 4 lenses, P25, Profoto Pro6 and 3 heads. In total I probably saved at least 35000$. Manufacturers who think full-time working photographers in todays financially eroding market, who don't have a trust fund and has to take a loan to invest, can buy their equipment at the retail prices we are seeing are IMHO out of touch with reality. The days of huge budgets and "quality first" are sadly gone for the most part, but somehow we photographers are still expected to pay an incredible amount of money to keep up with the latest in technology.
Sorry for the rant, I guess you get slightly jaded having to deal with clients never wanting to pay on one end, and being treated like an endless money-tree by the equipment manufacturers on the other end.
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hi James,
I'll try to give my answer just on the below "question/remarks", and leave the rest for meditation at Sinar.
While I honestly have to say that I fully understand all you are saying, I must also add that it isn't that easy as you describe it. In other words, the "way to get there" is absolutely right, but the factors influencing it are much more complicated for MF players. I don't want to pretend that we do it right, but at least we have to "play" carefully: risks do sometimes (if not often) pay, but can be also killing.
I do believe also that if price reductions or lower prices would be possible, then they would be available in the market, from MF players.
A few facts that influence the pricing (currently and in the past), not necessarily in an order of importance:
- Whatever people may thing: this business is high-end technology, with a lot of qualified manpower behind.
- Each company has a structure (and investments, whatever these are) asking for a minimum gross margin to break-even at the very least, for not closing and disappearing from the market, or usually to generate a minimum of profit to make it a reason to pursue this business.
- I have said it before, in earlier posts: when at the beginning of digital the hardware in general and the sensor in particular were representing the highest costs in a digital back, today this is not longer the case. Software development and support has taken over here and do represent a non-neglectful if not the major part of the production costs. Speaking about Sinar, a team of several SW people are working continuously on it.
- Support/warranty issues are to be calculated as well: Sinar "offers" a STANDARD 3-year warranty included in the purchase price, but somehow it has to be paid anyway. When a digital back comes in repair, there is not just an electronic component being changed: in most cases repairs or servicing do involve many tests and controls (before repair to address the problem, and after repair to check) involving a few persons and taking many hours.
- Market potential: although your model of reducing the price to increase market potential makes sense, there is currently a certain potential and we have to count with it.
- Finally, and I believe this is the same with other MF players, a huge amount of money is invested back in R&D, to be able to sustain the rhythm in this field.
I truly believe that MF pricing is at the level it can be, without excessive margins, neither for the manufacturers like Sinar, nor for the distributors (for other reasons). I do also honestly believe, that whenever price reduction is possible, it is done.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185219\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Don't all these digital imaging companies face and consider the same issues, RED, for instance?
I gather, in short, that what you are trying to say is that you're charging as much as you think the market can bear. Please correct me if I have misread you.
As an aside, I know a few fellows in a similar industry: boutique companies manufacturing high-end audio electronics in small production runs. There is a rule of thumb when it comes to pricing: take the total cost of all the components and mutiply it by 5. That is your manufacturer's suggested list price. Depending on the clout of your distributor and the quantity ordered, he gets 40 to 50 points. The distributor would usually offer his dealers 20 to 25 points. Hence, if audio product A has a total components' cost of $5000.00, product A carries a suggested retail of $25000.00. The distributor pays $12500.00. His dealer pays $18750.00. And you the end user, pay anything from $18750.00 to $25000.00, depending on how badly you want it or how badly the dealer needs you to want it. Every dealer will tell you that the margin is really small but ask him how small it really is in terms of numbers, and you will never get a straight answer. Numbers don't lie. That is how the high-end audio industry works.
Looking at how the digital back industry works, I am pretty sure something similar is at play here.
As for what defines excessive margins, it depends on whether you are talking from the viewpoint of a seller or a buyer.
Would anybody step forward and provide proof that I am wrong? Then I will clam up. Let's see the numbers.
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Don't all these digital imaging companies face and consider the same issues, RED, for instance?
I gather, in short, that what you are trying to say is that you're charging as much as you think the market can bear.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185234\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I didn't want to make this only about price though price matters.
I did want to draw a comparision between the red and digital backs because the red is the medium format digital back of the digital video world.
It has a professional tool aimed at serious professionals, but the difference between the red and most of the digital back makers is in just a few short years of zero to now, they already have more real comprensive information on thier site than you find on any of the medium format back's sites.
Prices, functionality, open lens designs and look at the amount of accessories, from mounts to drive space.
But since the conversation turned to price, don't think for a minute the people at Red couldn't have priced this camera body at $30,000, though $17,500 vs. $30,000 is a big leap and once you start serious production, your going to need a backup.
at seventeen five a lot of people can buy an extra body, but just like the medium format world at 30k, the backup becomes something else, in video probably a Canon or a Panasonic.
The parallels here are real and I think websites that seriously mention price and full useability are important.
Medium format may or may not address their market the way Red has, at least publlically, but they should.
Red is doing it right.
JR
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I didn't want to make this only about price though price matters.
...
Red is doing it right.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185240\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I was editing my previous reply when James wrote this. I concur with him completely.
What is needed is transparency in pricing and being totally upfront and on the level with your end users. Like RED. No guessing games. Of course, RED sells direct and does not appoint dealers, somebody is going to mention that.
As it stands right now, buying anything MFDB is like opening a box of chocolates: you never quite know what you're going to get.
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You HAVE misread me: where did I say that MF manufacturers price what the market can bear.
There must be a language problem, I guess.
If I wanted or did try to say "We do charge as much as the market can bear", than I would have written "We do charge as much as the market can bear"!
In the contrary: I did say and write in clear words and as my very first sentence to this issue:
"I do believe also that if price reductions or lower prices would be possible, then they would be available in the market ..."
Then further and after the reasons why and the listing of some important factors:
"I truly believe that MF pricing is at the level it can be ..." (read as low it could be)
and:
"I do also honestly believe, that whenever price reduction is possible, it is done."
Is there honestly any word in my explanation suggesting what you translated from it?
Please be so kind and don't misquote my words in the future.
And about your numbers: you must be right with your example, and I cannot argue with you for this particular situation.
But I do argue you with you when you extrapolate and transfer these numbers to the company I do represent: please be a "100% sure", not only "pretty sure", when speaking for somebody else or explaining how a company's margins are set.
I can assure you that we are a little more serious than simply making a "5 times" multiplication for our pricing, and that prices are not calculated like this in our company, not even in the whole Swiss industry.
Beside these, I am honestly asking myself why Sinar and I become your scapegoat each time you are intervening: what agenda do you have here?
On a side note: I have made it very clear that I am not here to speak a double language, to inform wrongly or to give false facts, details or whatsoever, but to speak frankly and with openness. If I cannot answer, don't know or don't want, I do say it as it is. If I do a mistake or if I am proven wrong, then I do recognize it.
For this particular issue I do stand by my words.
May I quote your own words in one of your very first posts in this forum, if not the first:
"Some live to complain. How about giving them a chance, ...? No point going on like an old scold unless you are an old scold".
What about applying this recommendation to yourself?
Thierry
Don't all these digital imaging companies face and consider the same issues, RED, for instance?
I gather, in short, that what you are trying to say is that you're charging as much as you think the market can bear. Please correct me if I have misread you.
As an aside, I know a few fellows in a similar industry: boutique companies manufacturing high-end audio electronics in small production runs. There is a rule of thumb when it comes to pricing: take the total cost of all the components and mutiply it by 5. That is your manufacturer's suggested list price. Depending on the clout of your distributor and the quantity ordered, he gets 40 to 50 points. The distributor would usually offer his dealers 20 to 25 points. Hence, if audio product A has a total components' cost of $5000.00, product A carries a suggested retail of $25000.00. The distributor pays $12500.00. His dealer pays $18750.00. And you the end user, pay anything from $18750.00 to $25000.00, depending on how badly you want it or how badly the dealer needs you to want it. Every dealer will tell you that the margin is really small but ask him how small it really is in terms of numbers, and you will never get a straight answer. Numbers don't lie. That is how the high-end audio industry works.
Looking at how the digital back industry works, I am pretty sure something similar is at play here.
As for what defines excessive margins, it depends on whether you are talking from the viewpoint of a seller or a buyer.
Would anybody step forward and provide proof that I am wrong? Then I will clam up. Let's see the numbers.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185234\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I can only agree with you, James, no point I do not adhere a 100%.
I do not know "RED Digital Camera" in details and how they are organized concerning distribution worldwide and such issues as servicing or support, but as mentioned by Sean, "Red sells direct" when we do function with "exclusive distributors" in most countries, and in some others like in the US with additional "dealers". I do admit that information gets lost that way, and even sometimes is not available. This has certainly to be improved.
Best regards,
Thierry
I didn't want to make this only about price though price matters.
I did want to draw a comparision between the red and digital backs because the red is the medium format digital back of the digital video world.
It has a professional tool aimed at serious professionals, but the difference between the red and most of the digital back makers is in just a few short years of zero to now, they already have more real comprensive information on thier site than you find on any of the medium format back's sites.
Prices, functionality, open lens designs and look at the amount of accessories, from mounts to drive space.
But since the conversation turned to price, don't think for a minute the people at Red couldn't have priced this camera body at $30,000, though $17,500 vs. $30,000 is a big leap and once you start serious production, your going to need a backup.
at seventeen five a lot of people can buy an extra body, but just like the medium format world at 30k, the backup becomes something else, in video probably a Canon or a Panasonic.
The parallels here are real and I think websites that seriously mention price and full useability are important.
Medium format may or may not address their market the way Red has, at least publlically, but they should.
Red is doing it right.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185240\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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What I don't understand of this particular matter is why backmakers simply do not follow industry standards (like DNG) and leave software support to specialized software houses with huge experience and sales numbers in imaging software.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185310\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That would be great but for one thing: tethered shooting would not be possible with existing 3rd party software. I mainly use the software to capture the image and export to Photoshop. I can not understand why people want so many features built into the back maker's software which already exist (and much more) in Photoshop.
All I need from the software is:
- support for tethering
- histogram
- focus check
- highlight recovery
- white balance/calibration controls
- TIFF export
If the RAW images were saved as DNGs then you could exclude the last three items, making it a pretty simple package, and cheaper. Then Photoshop can handle curves/levels adjustment, sharpening, cropping, rotation, distortion correction, JPEG conversion, white balance, and all the retouching.
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What I don't understand of this particular matter is why backmakers simply do not follow industry standards (like DNG) and leave software support to specialized software houses with huge experience and sales numbers in imaging software. Take a Sinar back and deduct the price of Photoshop and Lightroom from it. It still is a very expensive device. But if Thierry is to be believed it should at least save half of the price... So a lot of price reducing potential is left unused there.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185310\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
EPd, you are right, IMO. I would love it to be this way and am a strong advocate of what you are saying.
What bugs me most about this is that when these highly paid high-tech engineers really did the job that they were supposed to do, we, the photographers, would not have to pay all those expensive warranty repairs. The backs simply wouldn't break down that much. There seems to be little incentive in making a digital back that is rock solid when the users pay for the repair work anyway. It's even worse: it seems from Thierry's words that these warranty repairs are making up a great deal of the selling price of the backs. Fulfilling the warranty becomes a source of revenue for a backmaker then. I am definately not amused by this style of "offering service".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185310\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I did not say that warranty, support and servicing is a big part, but that it is a factor in pricing, as well for a manufacturer like Sinar as for the distributors spending hours and sometimes days with some (many) customers to give them the digital knowledge.
Some manufacturers do charge warranty periods over 1 year: look at those warranty extension prices to have an idea. Warranties are certainly not a source of revenue, in the contrary. And yes, we do pursue the goal of having products as rock-solid as possible.
Best regards,
Thierry
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That's exactly the way I see and would like to have it, Graham.
Best regards,
Thierry
That would be great but for one thing: tethered shooting would not be possible with existing 3rd party software. I mainly use the software to capture the image and export to Photoshop. I can not understand why people want so many features built into the back maker's software which already exist (and much more) in Photoshop.
All I need from the software is:
- support for tethering
- histogram
- focus check
- highlight recovery
- white balance/calibration controls
- TIFF export
If the RAW images were saved as DNGs then you could exclude the last three items, making it a pretty simple package, and cheaper. Then Photoshop can handle curves/levels adjustment, sharpening, cropping, rotation, distortion correction, JPEG conversion, white balance, and all the retouching.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185313\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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As an example of great software, look at ViewFinder from Betterlight. Small footprint, does exactly what it is supposed to do. Even if you don't have a Betterlight, the software and sample images can be downloaded for you to play with.
Cheers,
Kumar
That would be great but for one thing: tethered shooting would not be possible with existing 3rd party software. I mainly use the software to capture the image and export to Photoshop. I can not understand why people want so many features built into the back maker's software which already exist (and much more) in Photoshop.
All I need from the software is:
- support for tethering
- histogram
- focus check
- highlight recovery
- white balance/calibration controls
- TIFF export
If the RAW images were saved as DNGs then you could exclude the last three items, making it a pretty simple package, and cheaper. Then Photoshop can handle curves/levels adjustment, sharpening, cropping, rotation, distortion correction, JPEG conversion, white balance, and all the retouching.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185313\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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amsp,
The days of huge budgets and "quality first" are sadly gone for the most part, ...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185230\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I can assure you that this is the same for the manufacturers:
Don't believe that reduced budgets do not affect the whole chain.
Margins as they used to be with film/analog cameras do not longer apply since a very long time. And product life-cycles have shortened from may be 10 years to at maximum 2 years.
Sorry for the rant, I guess you get slightly jaded having to deal with clients never wanting to pay on one end, and being treated like an endless money-tree by the equipment manufacturers on the other end.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185230\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No rant, it's simply a discussion and explanation, but also here, be assured that we do not see or even try to treat customers like "money-trees"
Best regards,
Thierry
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Why should we not agree on certain issues?
Frankly, I am not here to disagree with you, just exposing our case how I see it.
To your question "Why Sinar is not making this choice ...":
That is or may just be my opinion, and I am certainly not an influential person nor an opinion leader to be able to push through my opinions and views. Sometimes I can convince, sometimes not. I can give my opinion, I can argue and defend it fully, but as to be the "weather-maker" and decider there is a long way from it.
I also don't think that it is alone a "Jenoptik's decision" issue, but rather mentalities to be changed and evolve.
Best regards,
Thierry
So for once we fully agree on at least one thing, Thierry. That being great in itself (hooray!), it also calls for further comment from your side: why is Sinar not making this choice, since it is so obviously the way to go if you want to bring down the price of your backs by a good chunk and serve the needs of your customers at the same time? (I have asked this question before when I spoke with Sinar reps, but I never got a logical answer other than: "it's Jenoptik's decision". As we have learned from one of your recent posts Sinar has a great deal of influence in developing decisions from Jenoptik, so what is the big factor hindering to communicate this effectively? The last time I looked a new, comprehensive piece of software called Exposure was announced, instead of a cooperation with Adobe or Apple.)
EPd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185318\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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http://www.red.com/store (http://www.red.com/store)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=185208\")
Red can people look at this topic.. [a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=24323]Red Thread[/url]
SMM
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I might add my 2c here (OK OK $30,000.)
What is being expressed here is some frustration at the level of overall competency of product roadmap execution, cost and customer support.
We are talking serious money here. And what we often get are vague details, piss poor web sites, flash heavy, detail poor, coming soon (hah) components, multiple (confused) partners.
User Friendly User Friendly User Friendly: that is the ticket we can't seem to get.
The "Red" thing is actually the perfect analogy.
1. Well executed product, reasonably priced for the value
2. Accessories clearly outlined, available.
3. Did I say "user friendly"?
The answer here would be to consider (if you please) the consumer, which is to say the professional photographer, trying to assess the viability of a medium format system. They are tired of hearing that they should spend $30G and wait for the rest of the upcoming system (Sinar & Leaf please stand) or perhaps be outmoded by a new model in the next year (Hasselblad, Phase stand up please).
Perhaps the worst insult is what would be easiest to correct: simple clear information detailed on a web site. I saw the web site for the new mamiya: hello? And the HY6/leaf/sinar: um... somebody tell me quick and simple about the 3 viewfinders and who has what when how? Hasselblad says they will be discontinuing a model, then they won't- and then they do. The initial hy6 camera & back: oops: doesn't communicate exif to the back and thats coming and oops we forgot to tell that to the reviewers, funny they noticed- think we should have told them ahead of time?????
Come on. Dysfunctional or what?
Unfortunately the answer to all of this confusion comes down to: Canon. Pretty damn good. 1/4 the price. Huge selection of lenses and accessories. Very few "gotchas".
All the above points from previous posters are extremely valid. Let some one else do the software for developing and do DNG.
To remain defensive and obscure is not the path to success in the medium format business.
Did I say "User Friendly"? Coming next year (perhaps)!
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So for once we fully agree on at least one thing, Thierry. That being great in itself (hooray!), it also calls for further comment from your side: why is Sinar not making this choice, since it is so obviously the way to go if you want to bring down the price of your backs by a good chunk and serve the needs of your customers at the same time? (I have asked this question before when I spoke with Sinar reps, but I never got a logical answer other than: "it's Jenoptik's decision". As we have learned from one of your recent posts Sinar has a great deal of influence in developing decisions from Jenoptik, so what is the big factor hindering to communicate this effectively? The last time I looked a new, comprehensive piece of software called Exposure was announced, instead of a cooperation with Adobe or Apple.)
EPd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185318\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You have to give Theirry an A for effort and for hanging in on this though topic, it seems the other reps and dealers have disappeared on this discussion.
Once again, my point wasn't to compare the Red business model to medium format for only price, but for transparency and the quality of real information.
Regardless, it seems in medium format, the topic always moves to costs and yes it seems that software plays a big part in that.
As far as I know there is no real effecient and stable way to hot folder from even a simple capture setup like Canon's EOS utility and still have the complete speed and function of a propretary software like C1.
In fact the main reason I moved to Phase was for C-1 and it was not love at first sight. The software is somewhat non intuitave and takes a while to figure out simple things like chaning thumbnail size, setting specific profiles, and setting specific shoot, process and capture folders, but once learned it is virtually bulletproof and very effecient for my work.
In fact once moving to the phase workflow I've saved many, many, many hours in my day because what I set on the computer as we shoot is very close to what I will produce for that ever gruelling first process of jpegs for web galleries.
Prior to C1 I had to batch process in 3rd party softwares and that makes for a roll your own scenario of exposure, color, balance, tone. Even with basic presets it takes a lot more time.
But, If the software is really 1/2 the cost of a digital back, then why aren't the manufacturers all over someone like Bryan who writes Raw Developer and paying him to make universal tethering and processing software?
Now not all medium format is Audi A-8 expensive even with backups. If you buy careful.
With my p30+ and P21+ im at a little over $30,000 and as I mentioned before 4 contax bodies and a dozen lens runs the complete medium format total to $50,000, including professional software. If I just kept it to one p21 and one contax with 4 lenses, the costs would be much less than 20k.
I think if you look at a lot of the other manufacturers and shop hard for price, refurbished, etc. you can get the price down even further.
Not Canon 5d cheap, but compared to the newest 1ds3 and a full complitment of lenses, not that far off either.
JR
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You have to give Theirry an A for effort and for hanging in on this though topic, it seems the other reps and dealers have disappeared on this discussion.
We're here James...or at least I am...
I just see this discussion going nowhere and what Thierry is going through now...well you know I've been there a few times before already - in public and in person and would rather not come across as one that repeats himself over and over again.
RED shows a lot of promise, but the proof, as we know (too well I'm afraid), will have to be in the pudding...I wish them only well, though.
Yair
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That would be great but for one thing: tethered shooting would not be possible with existing 3rd party software. I mainly use the software to capture the image and export to Photoshop. I can not understand why people want so many features built into the back maker's software which already exist (and much more) in Photoshop.
All I need from the software is:
- support for tethering
- histogram
- focus check
- highlight recovery
- white balance/calibration controls
- TIFF export
If the RAW images were saved as DNGs then you could exclude the last three items, making it a pretty simple package, and cheaper. Then Photoshop can handle curves/levels adjustment, sharpening, cropping, rotation, distortion correction, JPEG conversion, white balance, and all the retouching.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185313\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree, why inventing the wheel again? Even to the point that Hasselblad (for instance) is not cooperative in sharing the spec's of their file format denying Hasselblad users to use Adobe as their preferred raw converter.
If cutting back on software development would mean a 30% price drop for the backs I would say go for it.
Mostly I tolerate the backmakers software because you simply have to use it for one or another reason but not because I like working with it so much. Now we are being told it is one of the factors that also makes our equipment so outragiously expensive!!???
The red does seem to be extremely cheap compared to MFDB, it also has dedicated software.
Leaf appears to have realized it is a good idea to have larger software manufacturers take up support for their files and actually help them to get the most out of it. I wish others would follow. There is still some stuff I would like to see implemented in the backmakers software that is not in PS/ACR, stuff that would cut me hours on each assignment.
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No worries, Yair, I am still standing and able to hold on the discussion! It could be worse, what I am going through.
But effectively, it is somehow going nowhere, since there will always be "one" or "another" to jump in and try to shoot you down and make it becoming personal. This is where it becomes difficult to sustain a DISCUSSION with ideas exchange or suggestions. I don't understand why it has to be so.
While I understand and respect James' arguments and comments, and even find them very helpful, as well as those from many others, because I do not feel any personal nor company orientated "attack", and mainly because I feel it to be CONSTRUCTIVE, in opposition to DESTRUCTIVE, there are a few who make it a point to distort your own words or accuse you of being falsifying the reality with dubious proves or calculations and then extrapolating and applying it to you. That is simply not acceptable.
Best regards,
Thierry
We're here James...or at least I am...
I just see this discussion going nowhere and what Thierry is going through now...well you know I've been there a few times before already - in public and in person and would rather not come across as one that repeats himself over and over again.
RED shows a lot of promise, but the proof, as we know (too well I'm afraid), will have to be in the pudding...I wish them only well, though.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185346\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Same here: One P 25 2 year-old at CALUMET (like new) AFD body and 80mm, trade in for a RZ system at ADORAMA, 150mm and 45mm, trade for some 8x10 and 4x5 lenses at B&H, and a 35mm like new at ADORAMA...
And I am so happy that the two brands I went for: Phase and Mamiya, coincidentally are now working together.
amsp is correct, we are NOT "money-trees" I got all of this with two business credit cards and I am slowly paying back. My clients only see the final image and my satisfaction is to here them say: "how come your photos are so crispy?" or just whao when they open them in Photoshop.
I for one bought my entire kit second hand.. 2x Mamiya 645AFD, 4 lenses, P25, Profoto Pro6 and 3 heads. In total I probably saved at least 35000$. Manufacturers who think full-time working photographers in todays financially eroding market, who don't have a trust fund and has to take a loan to invest, can buy their equipment at the retail prices we are seeing are IMHO out of touch with reality. The days of huge budgets and "quality first" are sadly gone for the most part, but somehow we photographers are still expected to pay an incredible amount of money to keep up with the latest in technology.
Sorry for the rant, I guess you get slightly jaded having to deal with clients never wanting to pay on one end, and being treated like an endless money-tree by the equipment manufacturers on the other end.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185230\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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No worries, Yair, I am still standing and able to hold on the discussion! It could be worse, what I am going through.
But effectively, it is somehow going nowhere, since there will always be "one" or "another" to jump in and try to shoot you down and make it becoming personal. This is where it becomes difficult to sustain a DISCUSSION with ideas exchange or suggestions. I don't understand why it has to be so.
While I understand and respect James' arguments and comments, and even find them very helpful, as well as those from many others, because I do not feel any personal nor company orientated "attack", and mainly because I feel it to be CONSTRUCTIVE, in opposition to DESTRUCTIVE, there are a few who make it a point to distort your own words or accuse you of being falsifying the reality with dubious proves or calculations and then extrapolating and applying it to you. That is simply not acceptable.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185377\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ask for transparency in pricing and this is the reply you get. This could very easily have been settled with numbers.
Save all the allegations and what is deemed acceptable or not. Give us the numbers.
Please.
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Well, it's an interesting discussion. I haven't jumped in because I was just waiting to see who the Hy6 users were and how they were doing...of course I already know there aren't many.....yet.
And I am no industry scribe - I help people determine equipment choices, sell them that equipment and support them. I collaborate with manufacturers on various levels - some deeper than others, depending on the quality and willingness of cooperation. So, I don't have a lot to add as well, other than nodding my head..."Yes, he's right, and yes, he is right too....
I detect a lot of emotion (no pun intended Thierry) and a lot of frustration.
It would be very interesting to see a poll of how satisfied photographers with their medium format purchase. In fact, if I was a manufacturer, I would send out a regular poll to my users and see what they think of their experience in terms of their buying experience and their experience using the product and the support they've received (both before and after they bought from the manufacturer as well as the dealer).
To a manufacturer, numbers are extremely important. They affect everything. If you have 70% of your users extremely satisfied with their experience, and who feel you are on the right path, and 30% the opposite, that implies that a 10% or 20% increase in satisfaction performance would have a significant effect on sales. And it probably would. But then there is the issue of resources, if devoting X resources to Y improvement leads to 7% increase in sales, but the cost of the resources represent a 19% increase in cost, and - in addition - pushes off to the future that significant project that 70% have been clamoring for, and yet will not deliver that satisfaction increase for 18 months because of component shortages, as well as the difficulty of getting it right, what to do? How does that effect your organization and its ability to satisfy that other 70% of your market so that you stay in business in an extremely competitive market?
I am (clearly) not an economist. But this is a much more complicated situation than any of the well intended (and correct, on the money) posts have indicated. We'd like to sit here and say, Well why can't they just.....??? I know most of the members of these organizations, some very well. And there is a lot of talent involved (that you never come into contact with). I believe they are doing the best they can. But they all have different approaches and different challenges (and similar ones). I believe if they could make more profit by lowering the price - and that is what this is all about, ultimately, just as it is with most of you - they would do so. Since they haven't, they cannot or they have not found a way. And if any one of you really had an idea on how to do that, then you should be in their boardroom charging an extremely hefty consulting fee instead of posting on a public forum.
I believe they hear you. But hearing and acting are two different things. It is extremely difficult to cull the correct path forward from many, many voices, almost all of which have a valid perspective, but which all represent only one individual perspective.
Take as an example, this:
All I need from the software is:
- support for tethering
- histogram
- focus check
- highlight recovery
- white balance/calibration controls
- TIFF export
And even seconded by some. Do you know how much heat any of these guys would catch if this is all they offered? This might satisfy some, but it would incense many. And even the task of deciding what to offer (which is then impacted by the ability to offer it, and at a reasonable R&D/production cost, and in appropriate time frame) is incredibly difficult, complicated and fraught with peril.
Anyway - I am not trying to have anyone's back here - I am in that no man's land of positions, I serve customers, and I represent manufacturers. I am loyal to my customers, but I am also sympathetic to my manufacturers. And I strive to understand the quandaries of both. It's vastly easier to understand the quandaries of photographers when you're in their environment everyday. It's much more difficult to understand the challenges of a manufacturer. But I kow they exist. The bottom line is - keep the information coming, no matter how frustrating it may become. That is the most beneficial thing you can do.
Steve Hendrix
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We're here James...or at least I am...
I just see this discussion going nowhere and what Thierry is going through now...well you know I've been there a few times before already - in public and in person and would rather not come across as one that repeats himself over and over again.
RED shows a lot of promise, but the proof, as we know (too well I'm afraid), will have to be in the pudding...I wish them only well, though.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185346\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yair,
I think your right, this is the discussion from years ago and Theirry is also right that most of the conversation here is constructive rather than destructive.
The upside from a few years ago is we see much more maturity in digital backs and some better dealings on price. There are now more in the market and this has given more options.
We also see much, much better software from the manufacturers both proprietary and 3rd party.
That's a huge leap from two years ago.
Also I think it should be clear that for the people that rely on this equipment to earn a living, it's a big decision and there is a lot of trepidation in deciding on which system would be best for them.
I do think more information on a website would be a good start.
I also understand that the dealers are relied upon for a lot of what you see on the Red site. Storage, computers, monitors, and accessories and knowing Steve and Dave I can see where in most cases if you have questions or issues you would never have to call a manufacturer, as that is part of their service.
Still, my reason for showing the Red site was not to sell video cameras, but to get across how much easier it is to first go on a companies site, get all the information you need and then start making inquiries.
Yair, yes your are right again about the Red and the proof in the final product. I've been interested in this camera for some time and though I am still a little ambivalent as to what you do with 4k moving digital files, I have already heard word that it's great, where the next person says it just looks like any digital video, so just as in the still world, the video world has a lot of personal opinion and cross information.
I think we all know that this forum is the only public forum that comes close to offering medium format and professional discussion so given that it's public, the positive will come with the negative.
Still, as a lot of this conversation is almost identical to the RG days, it does make me wonder as of why after 2 years, many people still have the same questions and concerns?
Let's take the AFI on Leaf's site for example and compare it to the RED site.
They are both new and somewhat ground breaking cameras. They both have a lot of options and they both require a huge money and time investment from their users, especially their new users coming from film.
On the Red site in about 15 minutes you can pretty much price out everything you need to mount the camera on a stand and start working and yes there are some hidden costs and yes, that $17,500 will quickly become $30,000 if your not careful, but there is still real information on what it takes to buy, use, and hopefully make art and commerce with the camera.
Looking at the Leaf AFI site at least I see real information about what new and legacy lenses work on the camera, but there is no real comprehensive area that shows how an AFI back works with an Alpa, (or any technical camera) and what rollei lenses will attach, what wider lenses are needed and in other words how to interactively build your system on the web with a one button push to get prices, or even a dealer quote, much less real world availability.
I will stress this point again, there are some good dealers out there and Steve with PPR and Dave with Capture Integration I know personally so I know they will give you real world help, but I also know a whole list of photographers that attempt to buy from other sources, or have been turned off by dealers just because the calls weren't returned, the initial bid was over the top or the information was just flat wrong.
In fact I know photographers that know these two dealers personally, but still buy from others, just because the price is lowballed by some dealer that has an oversupply of stock, so I think this illustrates how important price is to most people.
In the last month I know I have had contact with 5 photographers that have cash in hand to buy a medium format system (or upgrade to one of the new cameras) and to a person only one has purchased a medium format back, though all have bought something new from Canon or Nikon.
Just because medium format relies on the dealer system, doesn't mean they shouldn't up their game on offering an easier way to price and buy. How difficult is it to put a build your own section of the site with a click that goes to a dealer for a quote? then again your making the leap of faith that the dealer will actually respond.
Last week I needed a new battery charger for my Phase and rather than call Dave and bug him on such a small item, I thought I would pick one up locally and called the largest Phase dealer in the country. Rather than just give a credit card and have it delivered by messenger, they wanted credit information faxed, copy of my driver's license and included shipping costs to their store!
All for a bloody battery charger, which makes me wonder what the conversation would be if I just called out of the blue and asked what a complete system, (including lenses), would cost.
It also makes me wonder that if they don't have a battery charger, what happens if I need something even more substainial.
Don't think this doesn't run off a lot of customers.
If medium format continues to charge premium prices, then they need to insure they and their dealers offer premium service and information.
Yair, your right, these are the same discussions of the past, but the reason doesn't come from the buyer's or the people on this forum, just wanting to here themselves talk, i's because medium format still is not giving all the answers in public.
JR
P.S. I'd like to concure with Steve and add this is the place for open discourse. Just because an issue is made public, doesn't make it any more or less valid and yes, the web has a lot of wrong information, but that's what an open forum can offer Yair, Theirry, Steve, Chris, etc. (and the rest of the professonals) a venue to get the record straight, or better yet address the issues.
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... Give us the numbers.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=185399\")
[a href=\"http://photal.nl/]http://photal.nl/[/url] and then click on Digitale camera's
Sinar/Jenoptic is a very little european firm, I agree with James' discussion but it should be forwarded first to the bigger companies and Sinar for last.
I'm very satysfied with this combo and I can't go back to the 1Ds II even for a moment! 3D look, incredible DR with Brumbear, great lenses.
Yes it's expensive but once you jump into .. you forget the 40€ per day.
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No idea what kind of work you do (but you mention velvia 50 so pehaps it is not fast moving?) of course but if you're looking for a square 66 mf body with film back and 80mm lens you really can pick up a v series for about £500.
Now of course if af, etc is essential for your art work the it would need to be the hy6 or an older rollei 6000 camera (ask fotoz about them for advice) but remember that any film based used medium format camera you by today you'll be able to sell for the same in a year or so you do not have to wory too much about future investment, digital ready etc.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185028\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi, Marc.
My work is mainly landscape and still subjects and, of course, AF is not essentialy needed here but due to some recent health problems my eyesight is not as good as I would like and sometimes it's hard for me to get proper manual focus, so I prefer to use an AF camera if I can. The Rolleiflex 6008 is a camera that I really like and I can get one now with 80mm lens and film back, all new, for 3.000 euros. I seriously consider this option if finally I decide not to go after the Hy6.
I know that photographers like Jeff Wall, Gregory Crewdson and others usually work with large format cameras but I prefer to use something lighter and more portable. I don't need very big final prints.
The price I've got from the dealers here in Sweden is ~6500 € + taxes (25% here in Sweden).
This includes:
- Camera body with wlf: ~3.200 € (plus taxes)
- 80mm lens: ~2000 € (plus taxes)
- Film mag adapter plate.
- Film mag 645 (6x6 not available yet)
/Salu2
Hola, Samuel.
That's the price I imagine or suppose the Hy6 with 80mm lenses and film back is going to be. Maybe a bit cheaper here in Spain (16% VAT taxes).
Of course, I like the 503CW and the Zeiss glass but, as I've said before, I prefer an AF camera. The P20 back looks like an interesting option but I'm not sure if I could live with its crop factor... What's your experience with this issue? Do you usually need to go wide? What about the integration of the 503CW with the P20 (is it the P20 or the P20+)?
Salu2
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Take as an example, this:
All I need from the software is:
- support for tethering
- histogram
- focus check
- highlight recovery
- white balance/calibration controls
- TIFF export
And even seconded by some. Do you know how much heat any of these guys would catch if this is all they offered? This might satisfy some, but it would incense many. And even the task of deciding what to offer (which is then impacted by the ability to offer it, and at a reasonable R&D/production cost, and in appropriate time frame) is incredibly difficult, complicated and fraught with peril.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185405\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You are very correct in this. There are those that would be content with a minimal tethered software, others would want it all. There is still talk every now and then on the Leaf forum asking when this or that feature of the software will be available.
If all they offered was a software to get the file correctly into the computer, people would be waving their arms pointing to the next person's software and saying "Look what they have, why can't we have that".
And trying to give the moon, the sun and stars also has it's drawbacks of bugs and whatnot.
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I would be very content with that list but indeed would like to add a bit more;
Moire removal
Hot folders (eg. invoke PS actions or droplets)
CA/Lens correction
For that you can leave out;
Highlight recovery
Tiff Export
But in exchange I would like to have the best raw conversion from ACR (PS/Lightroom). If that means prices can come down or I can get really back specific extra functionality (like 3" 900K dots live view) I am all for it.
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I would be very content with that list but indeed would like to add a bit more;
Moire removal
CA/Lens correction
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185426\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
...but these are exactly the kind of features which are already available in PS. Why would you want to re-invent the wheel and make the software more expensive?
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...but these are exactly the kind of features which are already available in PS. Why would you want to re-invent the wheel and make the software more expensive?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185430\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think while there's definitely pluses to relying on 3rd party software, there are definite minuses.
For a hardware manufacturer to rely on a company like Adobe or Apple to provide specific tools important to their (relatively tiny) user base is a very slippery slope. Photographers who use medium format products have very different needs and hoping a company the size of Adobe or Apple will accomodate those needs for that small group (and with promptness, of course) is a big hedge to bet your company's success on.
Cooperation with these large market companies is important but dependence is risky.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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If 1000 pros need special software, they can get together and eg. pay $500 to a guy like Bryan to write it - I'm sure that $500 000 will buy you any software you can name these days, open-sourced so it can be maintained.
Of course, if you have to pay a company to make the software then the dealer needs his cut, the manager needs his cut, the sales guy needs his cut, and the poor software guy gets ... fired because nobody can remember what he is actually there for.
Edmund
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...
Of course, if you have to pay a company to make the software then the dealer needs his cut, the manager needs his cut, the sales guy needs his cut, and the poor software guy gets ... fired because nobody can remember what he is actually there for.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185435\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Isn't that the truth?
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I think while there's definitely pluses to relying on 3rd party software, there are definite minuses.
For a hardware manufacturer to rely on a company like Adobe or Apple to provide specific tools important to their (relatively tiny) user base is a very slippery slope. Photographers who use medium format products have very different needs and hoping a company the size of Adobe or Apple will accomodate those needs for that small group (and with promptness, of course) is a big hedge to bet your company's success on.
Cooperation with these large market companies is important but dependence is risky.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185433\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't really agree, for me ACR surpassed C1 over a year ago in both quality and functionality. Since then I only use C1 for tethered shooting into LR or Bridge. Adobe would never abandon the pro market since it's both good PR and revenue. And lets face it, trying to compete with giants like Adobe and Apple is a loosing battle, not to mention costly. So, if the DB manufacturers could strip down their respective software to bare minimum or eliminate it completely and use that saving to lower the prices of the backs instead I'm all for it.
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I find the moire removal that is in the Leaf software superior than what can be achieved in PS, also the moire removal in Phocus seems (have not been able to test that myself) to be a lot better. CA and lens correction (DAC) in Flexcolor is far more accurate than anything I can achieve in PS. Naturally these corrections do need to take place within the Raw file and not during processing. Maybe these things should be specified carefully and handed over to Adobe so they can be incorporated in ACR
Anyway if PS can do better, fine. Point is that the more generic stuff that can be done via/by PS the more manufacturers can concentrate on really adding value.
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... So, if the DB manufacturers could strip down their respective software to bare minimum or eliminate it completely and use that saving to lower the prices of the backs instead I'm all for it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185446\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
asmp, even if that were to come to pass, I don't think it will change a thing price-wise.
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I find the moire removal that is in the Leaf software superior than what can be achieved in PS
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185460\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, that depends on what you are using in PS. The most efficient solution would be for someone to release a really good PS plugin that anyone can use. The more people who use it, the cheaper it becomes and the more resources the author has to keep improving it.
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Well, that depends on what you are using in PS. The most efficient solution would be for someone to release a really good PS plugin that anyone can use. The more people who use it, the cheaper it becomes and the more resources the author has to keep improving it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185466\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree, the PhaseOne plug-in works great. I wonder if it works equally well with files from other DB brands? Development of this plug-in has been suspended though, so the door is wide-open for someone to make an even better one and sell it.
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asmp, even if that were to come to pass, I don't think it will change a thing price-wise.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185462\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why not? If a DB-maker can lower it's price by reducing the cost of software R&D it could be a strong selling point for those who already prefer working with LR/ACR/Aperture/etc.
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Why not? If a DB-maker can lower it's price by reducing the cost of software R&D it could be a strong selling point for those who already prefer working with LR/ACR/Aperture/etc.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185489\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The question is not why not? The question is why would they? They could lower the price by not including software but that does not mean that they would or should.
Certainly on a $30 000.00 back, you would not find it going for $21 000.00 if they would only not include the software which is what you seem to be suggesting.
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The question is not why not? The question is why would they? They could lower the price by not including software but that does not mean that they would or should.
Certainly on a $30 000.00 back, you would not find it going for $21 000.00 if they would only not include the software which is what you seem to be suggesting.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185494\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I just told you why they hypothetically would or should. And where exactly did you see me suggesting a 30% price-drop? Even half of that, 4500$ would be a huge amount of money and a very strong selling point. At least to me.
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I just told you why they hypothetically would or should. And where exactly did you see me suggesting a 30% price-drop? Even half of that, 4500$ would be a huge amount of money and a very strong selling point. At least to me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185500\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
OK, that 30% was a figure Dustbak suggested as an hypothetical reduction in a previous thread. My apologies since I attributed it wrongly to you. I am sorry, asmp.
But my point is this: the exclusion of software is not going to magically see a price-drop, not even $4500.00 because these things are rolled into a package.
Let me ask you to compare the various software packages offered by Sinar, Leaf , Hasselblad and PhaseOne with those from Apple and Adobe. Put a dollar value on them. In other words, how much are you willing to pay for their software as a stand-alone solution. I would say that they are worth $500.00 each max to me.
If they were to exclude them, that is precisely the price reduction you will see. That is, a $30k back becomes $29 500.00 sans software.
Does that make it more affordable?
Somehow we are labouring under the illusion that if the MFDB manufacturers exclude software with a $4500.00 reduction in price (your suggestion), we could find a substitute in Apple Aperture 2 or Adobe Lightroom for $199.00. Ain't gonna happen.
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OK, that 30% was a figure Dustbak suggested as an hypothetical reduction in a previous thread. My apologies since I attributed it wrongly to you. I am sorry, asmp.
But my point is this: the exclusion of software is not going to magically see a price-drop, not even $4500.00 because these things are rolled into a package.
Let me ask you to compare the various software packages offered by Sinar, Leaf , Hasselblad and PhaseOne with those from Apple and Adobe. Put a dollar value on them. In other words, how much are you willing to pay for their software as a stand-alone solution. I would say that they are worth $500.00 each max to me.
If they were to exclude them, that is precisely the price reduction you will see. That is, a $30k back becomes $29 500.00 sans software.
Does that make it more affordable?
Somehow we are labouring under the illusion that if the MFDB manufacturers exclude software with a $4500.00 reduction in price (your suggestion), we could find a substitute in Apple Aperture 2 or Adobe Lightroom for $199.00. Ain't gonna happen.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185504\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The amount they would be able to lower the prices of the backs has nothing to do with what you or me think the software is worth, but rather how much the R&D savings would equate to. The cost of development is the same whether you sell 1 or 10000 copies of the software later. So all I'm saying is that for a small company selling maybe a thousand backs a year it could possibly make sense to pass on that saving to their customers and compete with a lower price. Naturally only if the savings are considerable enough to make a difference. I think Mamiya with their ZD is the most likely candidate to go this way, in fact as far as I know they no longer develop their own software and instead offer their clients the choice between LR an C1.
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You can have any enduser price you are asking for, in any country. Unfortunately, prices vary from country to country, due to local taxes and duties, or due to the structure of the distribution, etc ...
I doubt RED would be able to provide one single price for the whole world, if using the same distribution and sales model.
So, if you are asking me, I shall give you our recommended enduser prices, valid in Switzerland, ex-factory, any.
If you are asking for other details concerning how prices are calculated, then you should content yourself with the information and factors influencing prices that I have already provided.
I do not make any allegations, but am firmly asking for following to be respected:
- not speaking about and/ or making allegations about a company, claiming to know how it works and is organized, especially concerning prices, when you don't (know).
- not turning the words and sentences in my mouth to make your own translation and meaning out of it, when the sense of my writing is clear enough to not make such a translation possible.
- not to accuse me of and to claim that I am "running down the competition" or then to give and point to any evidence of me having done so: this concerns a previous accusation which for I had asked you to provide proves of your allegation and which you did not.
I guess that this is not too much demanding and only respectable if the purpose of your posts is a true discussion with ideas exchange.
Best regards,
Thierry
Ask for transparency in pricing and this is the reply you get. This could very easily have been settled with numbers.
Save all the allegations and what is deemed acceptable or not. Give us the numbers.
Please.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185399\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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EPd,
That is the very reason why most of us are here: to get our ideas and suggestions heard and shared for eventually changing things and making them evolve and being better for the enduser.
It is sometimes a long way to change mentalities, and I know what I am speaking about. Nevertheless, I am patient enough to get my point through and not letting go too easily.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry said something very interesting: it is more a matter of "mentalities to be changed and evolve" from the back manufacturers. I believe he might have hit the nail on its head there, but it leaves me with a very frustrated feeling that we are paying a lot of money for just a mentality that won't change for some reason.
EPd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185527\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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You can have any enduser price you are asking for, in any country. Unfortunately, prices vary from country to country, due to local taxes and duties, or due to the structure of the distribution, etc ...
I doubt RED would be able to provide one single price for the whole world, if using the same distribution and sales model.
So, if you are asking me, I shall give you our recommended enduser prices, valid in Switzerland, ex-factory, any.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185550\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
how about your prices for users in thailand since that is where you are based
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With Brian's great Raw Developer (http://www.iridientdigital.com/products/) software selling for $125, I can't imagine paying $500 for anything less than Phase One's fully featured Capture One Pro v4.
If 1000 pros need special software, they can get together and eg. pay $500 to a guy like Bryan to write it - I'm sure that $500 000 will buy you any software you can name these days, open-sourced so it can be maintained.
Edmund
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We do not currently have any distributor in Thailand. Give me your contact and I shall send you our price list.
You can contact me anytime and for any reason by email.
Best regards,
Thierry
how about your prices for users in thailand since that is where you are based
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185560\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Steve,
I can easily put my signature under your whole comment.
Best regards,
Thierry
Well, it's an interesting discussion....
.... That is the most beneficial thing you can do.
Steve Hendrix
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185405\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Question about the HY6 Sinar Leaf
On the Sinar website no mention is made about the 45 degree viewfinder - which is mentioned on the Leaf site: Thierry: do you know if Sinar offers this finder?
For others on this forum who may may be able to inform:
what is the best back to use off camera on a technical camera such as an Alpa (which would be necessary for the HY6 / AFI for very wide angle). I am talking about battery power, wake up sleep, other factors. No one makes a live view on the back I assume?
Hasselblad needs power which needs be provided by their hard drive. Phase: wake up double cable system but battery attaches to bottom of unit? Sinar and Leaf??
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Yair,
I think your right, this is the discussion from years ago and Theirry is also right that most of the conversation here is constructive rather than destructive.
The upside from a few years ago is we see much more maturity in digital backs and some better dealings on price. There are now more in the market and this has given more options.
We also see much, much better software from the manufacturers both proprietary and 3rd party.
That's a huge leap from two years ago.
Also I think it should be clear that for the people that rely on this equipment to earn a living, it's a big decision and there is a lot of trepidation in deciding on which system would be best for them.
I do think more information on a website would be a good start.
I also understand that the dealers are relied upon for a lot of what you see on the Red site. Storage, computers, monitors, and accessories and knowing Steve and Dave I can see where in most cases if you have questions or issues you would never have to call a manufacturer, as that is part of their service.
Still, my reason for showing the Red site was not to sell video cameras, but to get across how much easier it is to first go on a companies site, get all the information you need and then start making inquiries.
Yair, yes your are right again about the Red and the proof in the final product. I've been interested in this camera for some time and though I am still a little ambivalent as to what you do with 4k moving digital files, I have already heard word that it's great, where the next person says it just looks like any digital video, so just as in the still world, the video world has a lot of personal opinion and cross information.
I think we all know that this forum is the only public forum that comes close to offering medium format and professional discussion so given that it's public, the positive will come with the negative.
Still, as a lot of this conversation is almost identical to the RG days, it does make me wonder as of why after 2 years, many people still have the same questions and concerns?
Let's take the AFI on Leaf's site for example and compare it to the RED site.
They are both new and somewhat ground breaking cameras. They both have a lot of options and they both require a huge money and time investment from their users, especially their new users coming from film.
On the Red site in about 15 minutes you can pretty much price out everything you need to mount the camera on a stand and start working and yes there are some hidden costs and yes, that $17,500 will quickly become $30,000 if your not careful, but there is still real information on what it takes to buy, use, and hopefully make art and commerce with the camera.
Looking at the Leaf AFI site at least I see real information about what new and legacy lenses work on the camera, but there is no real comprehensive area that shows how an AFI back works with an Alpa, (or any technical camera) and what rollei lenses will attach, what wider lenses are needed and in other words how to interactively build your system on the web with a one button push to get prices, or even a dealer quote, much less real world availability.
I will stress this point again, there are some good dealers out there and Steve with PPR and Dave with Capture Integration I know personally so I know they will give you real world help, but I also know a whole list of photographers that attempt to buy from other sources, or have been turned off by dealers just because the calls weren't returned, the initial bid was over the top or the information was just flat wrong.
In fact I know photographers that know these two dealers personally, but still buy from others, just because the price is lowballed by some dealer that has an oversupply of stock, so I think this illustrates how important price is to most people.
In the last month I know I have had contact with 5 photographers that have cash in hand to buy a medium format system (or upgrade to one of the new cameras) and to a person only one has purchased a medium format back, though all have bought something new from Canon or Nikon.
Just because medium format relies on the dealer system, doesn't mean they shouldn't up their game on offering an easier way to price and buy. How difficult is it to put a build your own section of the site with a click that goes to a dealer for a quote? then again your making the leap of faith that the dealer will actually respond.
Last week I needed a new battery charger for my Phase and rather than call Dave and bug him on such a small item, I thought I would pick one up locally and called the largest Phase dealer in the country. Rather than just give a credit card and have it delivered by messenger, they wanted credit information faxed, copy of my driver's license and included shipping costs to their store!
All for a bloody battery charger, which makes me wonder what the conversation would be if I just called out of the blue and asked what a complete system, (including lenses), would cost.
It also makes me wonder that if they don't have a battery charger, what happens if I need something even more substainial.
Don't think this doesn't run off a lot of customers.
If medium format continues to charge premium prices, then they need to insure they and their dealers offer premium service and information.
Yair, your right, these are the same discussions of the past, but the reason doesn't come from the buyer's or the people on this forum, just wanting to here themselves talk, i's because medium format still is not giving all the answers in public.
JR
P.S. I'd like to concure with Steve and add this is the place for open discourse. Just because an issue is made public, doesn't make it any more or less valid and yes, the web has a lot of wrong information, but that's what an open forum can offer Yair, Theirry, Steve, Chris, etc. (and the rest of the professonals) a venue to get the record straight, or better yet address the issues.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185411\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
James, you are bringing up some very valid points about having more info available on the web.
However there is a world of difference between selling a camera system online in US only (or to put it bluntly, TRYING to sell a camera system online), and selling through a chain of more than 100 qualified dealers world-wide, in local currencies, local languages etc.
A local dealer knows the market better than the manufacturer will ever be able to, in terms of specific needs, trends, economics and so on.
A local dealer can come to your studio to demonstrate the product, leave you with a copy of the software and with raw files, a quote and a phone number
A local dealer can lend you a camera, or let you rent one for a shoot, to try it out
A local dealer can come in when something breaks down, be it the back, the camera , the computer or the software
A local dealer can offer a back-up or a loan unit while your camera goes in for repair
A local dealer can pick up the phone on Saturday night while you're in a middle of a shoot to try and work out a problem with the kit
A local dealer can sell you a Mac, a monitor, a bag, CF cards, spare cables etc. and maybe offer you a discount since you're buying a bundle.
On top of that, we offer trade-ins and refurb facilities, as well as extended warranties...again in the local language+currency.
We also have specific pricing policies for schools and rentals that involve with installations and training seminars.
We do try to use as many "standard" items as possible. So if you need an extra charger, cable or battery, you are able to buy them online anywhere, most likely cheaper and whenever, wherever you need them.
I guess you can understand what I am trying to say. The web is a wonderful tool for many things, but unfortunately (or fortunately, pick your side...) there are many things it is still not so great at...
Saying that, I fully agree that there's room for improvement and if you you've been following our site for the last 1-2 years, I believe that you've seen the changes taking place. There's definitely room for improvement on the dealers part as well, which we constantly work on.
Thanks
Yair
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Question about the HY6 Sinar Leaf
On the Sinar website no mention is made about the 45 degree viewfinder - which is mentioned on the Leaf site: Thierry: do you know if Sinar offers this finder?
For others on this forum who may may be able to inform:
what is the best back to use off camera on a technical camera such as an Alpa (which would be necessary for the HY6 / AFI for very wide angle). I am talking about battery power, wake up sleep, other factors. No one makes a live view on the back I assume?
Hasselblad needs power which needs be provided by their hard drive. Phase: wake up double cable system but battery attaches to bottom of unit? Sinar and Leaf??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185603\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
For using an AFi back on a technical camera, you will first need an adapter;
We make a universal Graflok plate for 5X4
ALPA and Cambo both make an adapter plate for their cameras
Linhof, Silvestri and Mergin-X are in the process of making one as well.
You also need a sync cable and a battery.
The Leaf cable comes in 2 lengths, the longer one is for use with extended bellows.
The battery is a Samsung SB-L compatible which can be bought in various sizes of up to 6,000 mAh. The one we provide is 2,350 mAh and will typically last 1.5-2 hrs.
There is no wake-up cable required, since the Dalsa sensor is very fast at "clear and reset".
With wide angle, non-retrofocal lenses, such as the Schneider 24mm, we recommend using a diffuser filter for dealing with colour casts. (this has been discussed here on several occasions, I can also send you some documentation if needed).
Current CCD and chipset technologies do not allow for Live View on the back. This is only available when tethered to a computer.
One feature that you might find helpful, though, is an on-screen grid, that can be adjusted for number of lines, colour and position. Helps with aligning you frame.
I hope this helps
Yair
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Dear Bryan,
The 45° finder is not mentioned yet on our webpage: it will however be available mid of May.
Then:
You may know that any Sinarback has interchangeable adapter plates, which makes it possible and easy to change from one camera platform to another, MF or view camera.
There is an adapter made by Alpa and Cambo for the backs fitting the Hy6: all you need in this case is their respective adapter (no need to take away the Hy6 adapter).
The eMotion have their own internal battery powering the back: the autonomy is at least 2.5 hours.
There is no wake-up cable needed, since the sensor does not need any wake-up.
And as mentioned by Yair, Live Video is not available on the back's display, but tethered and on the computer.
Best regards,
Thierry
Question about the HY6 Sinar Leaf
On the Sinar website no mention is made about the 45 degree viewfinder - which is mentioned on the Leaf site: Thierry: do you know if Sinar offers this finder?
For others on this forum who may may be able to inform:
what is the best back to use off camera on a technical camera such as an Alpa (which would be necessary for the HY6 / AFI for very wide angle). I am talking about battery power, wake up sleep, other factors. No one makes a live view on the back I assume?
Hasselblad needs power which needs be provided by their hard drive. Phase: wake up double cable system but battery attaches to bottom of unit? Sinar and Leaf??
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185603\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Deleted
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Ok Yair, you asked for it. Here is what a local dealer and distributor does in a LATIN country:
- a local distributor does not order an accessory until his order batch goes out. He will only get it when his order batch comes in.
- A local distributor does not phone back if a dealer calls him when a back is broken. If the photographer has to go out on a shoot that's just too bad.
- The local dealer may be unhappy that his client has a broken back; but he will never go with a client and demand repair, he will prefer to lose a client rather than annoy the distributor because the distributor has so much power.
- The local distributor will not lend backs out to replace units tha are broken, if he can help it: He is using those same units as $500 a day rentals, as demos, and for his "friends".
- in Latin contries, the code is that all "friends" and "well-known photographers" get their loaners for free for their tests and only pay for their client jobs. Anyone less-known or who doesn't throw parties with models will have to pay in full for a rental, and can wait until hell freezes over for a replacement unit in case of repair.
- a local dealer does not have training to do simple repairs eg. shim a back, but he still does them. Yet another reason why a client gets non-functional equipment.
- A local dealer will sell broken equipment as new to another client after one client returns it.
- A local dealer and distributor together get about 40% of the final price. Their real argument to their clients is "we PERMIT you to get a back. As we're exclusive, if you buy elsewhere or IF YOU ARE NOT NICE TO US we'll make sure you never get a new back on time, and make sure you'll never get a repair."
- The internet does alter the point above a bit. This makes the locals very unhappy.
Red have the best distribution model - anything that goes wrong is clearly their bad, anything that goes right is their good.
Edmund
James, you are bringing up some very valid points about having more info available on the web.
However there is a world of difference between selling a camera system online in US only (or to put it bluntly, TRYING to sell a camera system online), and selling through a chain of more than 100 qualified dealers world-wide, in local currencies, local languages etc.
A local dealer knows the market better than the manufacturer will ever be able to, in terms of specific needs, trends, economics and so on.
A local dealer can come to your studio to demonstrate the product, leave you with a copy of the software and with raw files, a quote and a phone number
A local dealer can lend you a camera, or let you rent one for a shoot, to try it out
A local dealer can come in when something breaks down, be it the back, the camera , the computer or the software
A local dealer can offer a back-up or a loan unit while your camera goes in for repair
A local dealer can pick up the phone on Saturday night while you're in a middle of a shoot to try and work out a problem with the kit
A local dealer can sell you a Mac, a monitor, a bag, CF cards, spare cables etc. and maybe offer you a discount since you're buying a bundle.
On top of that, we offer trade-ins and refurb facilities, as well as extended warranties...again in the local language+currency.
We also have specific pricing policies for schools and rentals that involve with installations and training seminars.
We do try to use as many "standard" items as possible. So if you need an extra charger, cable or battery, you are able to buy them online anywhere, most likely cheaper and whenever, wherever you need them.
I guess you can understand what I am trying to say. The web is a wonderful tool for many things, but unfortunately (or fortunately, pick your side...) there are many things it is still not so great at...
Saying that, I fully agree that there's room for improvement and if you you've been following our site for the last 1-2 years, I believe that you've seen the changes taking place. There's definitely room for improvement on the dealers part as well, which we constantly work on.
Thanks
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185612\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Billy,
Yes, it does have black color, definitively, actually called anthracite (the same as the Sinar Hy6). We have no blue/grey color for this finder.
Best regards,
Thierry
Edited for addendum: By the way, the Schneider 50mm AFD for the Sinar Hy6 has been released today and is available from stock.
Thierry,
Will it have changed to black color by May from the current ugly blue grey?
[attachment=5831:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185628\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Ok Yair, you asked for it. Here is what a local dealer and distributor does in a LATIN country:
- a local distributor does not order an accessory until his order batch goes out. He will only get it when his order batch comes in.
- A local distributor does not phone back if a dealer calls him when a back is broken. If the photographer has to go out on a shoot that's just too bad.
- The local dealer may be unhappy that his client has a broken back; but he will never go with a client and demand repair, he will prefer to lose a client rather than annoy the distributor because the distributor has so much power.
- The local distributor will not lend backs out to replace units tha are broken, if he can help it: He is using those same units as $50 a day rentals, as demos, and for his "friends".
- in Latin contries, the code is that all "friends" and "well-known photographers" get their loaners for free for their tests and only pay for their client jobs. Anyone less-known or who doesn't throw parties with models will have to pay in full for a rental, and can wait until hell freezes over for a replacement unit in case of repair.
- a local dealer does not have training to do simple repairs eg. shim a back, but he still does them. Yet another reason why a client gets non-functional equipment.
- A local dealer will sell broken equipment as new to another client after one client returns it.
- A local dealer and distributor together get about 40% of the final price. Their real argument to their clients is "we PERMIT you to get a back. As we're exclusive, if you buy elsewhere or IF YOU ARE NOT NICE TO US we'll make sure you never get a new back on time, and make sure you'll never get a repair."
- The internet does alter the point above a bit. This makes the locals very unhappy.
Red have the best distribution model - anything that goes wrong is clearly their bad, anything that goes right is their good.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185629\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sounds like you have had bad experience with your kit and the way it has been dealt by your dealer and the distributor in your LATIN country
I can only speak for Leaf here as I've been dealing with LATIN countries for a few years now
In EAMER, AP, Japan and Latin America countries we do not have a chained channel, meaning that the person you buy the kit from deals directly with Leaf and not via a distributor.
More than 50% of our dealers are trained to a level that allows them to handle 80% or repair cases, basically anything that doesn't require a sensor being replaced. The backs are designed with this in mind and these people can replace the whole electronics package within a few hours and have it all re-tested and re-calibrated "while-you-wait".
In US the channel is quite different but the MAC group and Leaf America are doing a great job in taking care of support and service nation-wide. They also take care of repairs states-side.
I understand your frustration about "their bad" but still what do they do when you're on set on location and the software crashes or the camera won't boot up? Who do you call? Mon-Fri 8am-5pm Pacific doesn't cover a lot of grounds for outside-US customers...
Yair
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Yair,
You have a point about the Red problems if one breaks, but I guess people buy two of them and they can drop ship a replacement for a failure.
If a back crashes over here, I guess if shouting makes one feel better one can call the channel, but in practice a 5D is a more effective solution.
And then, once a piece of equipment gets established, there's always the rental pool.
Edmund
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So, the 45º prism's exterior will change from the current ugly blue grey seen in my attachment to anthracite by May timeframe?
[attachment=5831:attachment]
Great that all the pieces are falling into place, from the revolving interface plate to the 50mm AFD lens to the eXposure software tomorrow. Only the 90º finder remains by the end of April? How about the little things like short & long electronic cable releases when one doesn't want to fire the camera from the software/computer?
Billy,
Yes, it does have black color, definitively, actually called anthracite (the same as the Sinar Hy6). We have no blue/grey color for this finder.
Best regards,
Thierry
Edited for addendum: By the way, the Schneider 50mm AFD for the Sinar Hy6 has been released today and is available from stock.
-
Yair,
I am about to recieve my Leaf AFi7 w/ 45 degree prism finder in a weeks time.
I sure hope that it does not look like the one above? If so it will be returned as soon as the black one becomes available. Only a cosmetic difference, but still important enough for me to return the item.
Regards,
Rune Molnes
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Billy,
I don't know if the 45° finder will change, but the Sinar one was not yet available and may be what you have seen was a prototype: I was told that we don't have had any "blue-grey" and that our is anthracite and matching the color of the Sinar Hy6.
Yes, the 90° is available by end of April.
Best regards,
Thierry
Edited for addendum:
Yes, a release cable is planed, but I don't have any ETA yet.
So, the 45º prism's exterior will change from the current ugly blue grey seen in my attachment to anthracite by May timeframe?
[attachment=5831:attachment]
Great that all the pieces are falling into place, from the revolving interface plate to the 50mm AFD lens to the eXposure software tomorrow. Only the 90º finder remains by the end of April? How about the little things like short & long electronic cable releases when one doesn't want to fire the camera from the software/computer?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185652\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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James, you are bringing up some very valid points about having more info available on the web.
However there is a world of difference between selling a camera system online in US only (or to put it bluntly, TRYING to sell a camera system online), and selling through a chain of more than 100 qualified dealers world-wide, in local currencies, local languages etc.
A local dealer knows the market better than the manufacturer will ever be able to, in terms of specific needs, trends, economics and so on.
A local dealer can come to your studio to demonstrate the product, leave you with a copy of the software and with raw files, a quote and a phone number
A local dealer can lend you a camera, or let you rent one for a shoot, to try it out
A local dealer can come in when something breaks down, be it the back, the camera , the computer or the software
A local dealer can offer a back-up or a loan unit while your camera goes in for repair
A local dealer can pick up the phone on Saturday night while you're in a middle of a shoot to try and work out a problem with the kit
A local dealer can sell you a Mac, a monitor, a bag, CF cards, spare cables etc. and maybe offer you a discount since you're buying a bundle.
On top of that, we offer trade-ins and refurb facilities, as well as extended warranties...again in the local language+currency.
We also have specific pricing policies for schools and rentals that involve with installations and training seminars.
We do try to use as many "standard" items as possible. So if you need an extra charger, cable or battery, you are able to buy them online anywhere, most likely cheaper and whenever, wherever you need them.
I guess you can understand what I am trying to say. The web is a wonderful tool for many things, but unfortunately (or fortunately, pick your side...) there are many things it is still not so great at...
Saying that, I fully agree that there's room for improvement and if you you've been following our site for the last 1-2 years, I believe that you've seen the changes taking place. There's definitely room for improvement on the dealers part as well, which we constantly work on.
Thanks
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185612\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yair,
It really doesn't matter to me how any company sells there cameras, but don't think for a moment that there isn't a need for more cohesive and accurate information from the makers of these products.
The goodness or useability of the Red really has nothing to do with what I showed for comparision, but the goodness and useability of thier website does set a standard for how a manufacturer can get information out.
We've had this disucssion before, but I suggest any manufacturer get a Yahoo account with a fake name like Zsar Guidonoria Photography and send a comprehensive e-mail out for price quotes, delivery times and exact availability of product and do this with every dealer and see what the response is.
Then once you take delivery of the product, make an emergency call to the dealer at 4:55pm and say my screen has red pixelated blobs on it and see what the response is.
I think the results will suprise you and not in a good way.
There are some good dealers, (mostly in Atlanta), but being local usualy means nothing unless your in NY and even then the local thing just usually means the price is higher because the dealer assumes your in his/her territory and have no other options.
Whether I call Atlanta, Boston, or Iceland for information or a fix really changes nothing in my world as I (and many others) spend half our lives somewhere else anyway.
The fact that Leaf works with schools or gives priority to rental may be good for Leaf (or any manufacturer) but does little for the individual buyer, unless they are a photographer whos kid goes to Art Center and they rent all thier backups from a dealer.
JR
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James,
Mystery shopper. Very good idea.
The trouble is these guys will take the idea seriously to hammer the poor bastards on pricing policy, rater than to bring them up to standards on tech ability and service.
By the way here is what a *model* remarked in German at Photokina when I talked about Hassy's prices being too high : "In every industry there must be elite products".
Well folks, in this industry the pricing of the digital backs and the models may be Elite (http://www.elitemodel.com/), but service and sales sure ain't except in legendary Atlanta
Edmund
Yair,
We've had this disucssion before, but I suggest any manufacturer get a Yahoo account with a fake name like Zsar Guidonoria Photography and send a comprehensive e-mail out for price quotes, delivery times and exact availability of product and do this with every dealer and see what the response is.
Then once you take delivery of the product, make an emergency call to the dealer at 4:55pm and say my screen has red pixelated blobs on it and see what the response is.
I think the results will suprise you and not in a good way.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185740\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Billy,
That grey-blue prism finder is the Leaf version of the thing. Originally Sinar was not planning to sell the 45 degree prism, but F&H offered it since they already had one for the 6000 series. This prism is only a modified version: F&H placed a fitting Hy6/AFi plate under the original 6000 prism. When the prism finder for the Hy6 was a fact Sinar had to reconsider offering it too, in addition to Leaf and F&H on the Rolleiflex Hy6. (Otherwise the result would be that a Sinar badged Hy6 had to carry the Rolleiflex or Leaf badge on the front, since the badge sits on the finder.)
EPd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185793\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Now Thierry or Yair will explain to us why a camera needs a $2000 finder
Edmund
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(Otherwise the result would be that a Sinar badged Hy6 had to carry the Rolleiflex or Leaf badge on the front, since the badge sits on the finder.)
EPd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185793\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Great way of making sure you sell your accessories to every party! I guess every new component will come badged from now on ?
I refrain from commenting on dealers other than stating that IMO many are utterly useless. Unfortunately none of the MFDB manufacturers at this moment are prepared to communicate and deal more directly with their end-users.
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Now Thierry or Yair will explain to us why a camera needs a $2000 finder
Edmund
Is it really any more expensive than Hasselblad's or Mamiya's prisms/finders?
I recall Jordan stating the 45º sells for around US$1,200
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Is it really any more expensive than Hasselblad's or Mamiya's prisms/finders?
I recall Jordan stating the 45º sells for around US$1,200
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185801\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Maybe we should point Hartblei or Arsat at this interesting new market - I'm sure a prism finder is well within their abilities.
Edmund
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Is it really any more expensive than Hasselblad's or Mamiya's prisms/finders?
I recall Jordan stating the 45º sells for around US$1,200
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185801\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Leaf 45 Degree Finder for AFi: $1,132
Leaf 90 Degree Finder for AFi: $1,132
Leaf Waist Level Finder for AFi: $434
Sinar 90 Degree Finder for Hy6: $1,438
Sinar 45 Degree Finder for Hy6: $TBA
Sinar Waist Level Finder for Hy6: $480
Hasselblad 90 Degree HVD Finder for H3D: 1,591
Hasselblad 90 Degree HVX Finder for H1/H2: $1,591
Hasselblad Waist Level Finder for H1/H2: $301
Mamiya 90 Degree Finder for AFD: Free!
Steve Hendrix
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Now Thierry or Yair will explain to us why a camera needs a $2000 finder
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185797\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
To keep in line with your comments...it doesn't need a $2K finder, which is why it is cheaper....(about 30% cheaper).
One can always stick to the WLF, which is part of the camera kit anyway.
Yair
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Steve,
Thank you for this very informative post - maybe you're one of those rare effective dealers who happen to be located in Atlanta ?
Edmund
Leaf 45 Degree Finder for AFi: $1,132
Leaf 90 Degree Finder for AFi: $1,132
Leaf Waist Level Finder for AFi: $434
Sinar 90 Degree Finder for Hy6: $1,438
Sinar 45 Degree Finder for Hy6: $TBA
Sinar Waist Level Finder for Hy6: $480
Hasselblad 90 Degree HVD Finder for H3D: 1,591
Hasselblad 90 Degree HVX Finder for H1/H2: $1,591
Hasselblad Waist Level Finder for H1/H2: $301
Mamiya 90 Degree Finder for AFD: Free!
Steve Hendrix
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185808\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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To keep in line with your comments...it doesn't need a $2K finder, which is why it is cheaper....(about 30% cheaper).
One can always stick to the WLF, which is part of the camera kit anyway.
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185811\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't know about the costs, but I'm telling, you Leaf and Sinar boys need to buy some spray paint and pimp that thing black because it doesn't look very cohesive.
[attachment=5850:attachment]
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I don't know about the costs, but I'm telling, you Leaf and Sinar boys need to buy some spray paint and pimp that thing black because it doesn't look very cohesive.
[attachment=5850:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185827\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
mmmmm.... nice blue finder.
reminds me of my crappy broncolor impacts i had 15 years ago.
paul
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Gidday,
Yep that is one ugly camera.
Cheers
Simon
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Gidday,
Yep that is one ugly camera.
Cheers
Simon
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185842\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
the leaf version looks a lot better. if you have to spend all that money, the camera has to look good as well.
(http://www.pauljonesimages.com/variouspics/hy6.jpg)
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I have to agree that the whole crazy colors fad is just beyond me. I truly hate the H3D color and the Hy6 gray/red scheme is only slightly better. A pro camera should be black, period. And what's up with that finder? Looks like the ancient Russian Kiev.
(http://www.rus-camera.com/acc/prizma_k_salutu_ne_ttl.jpg)
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Sounds like you have had bad experience with your kit and the way it has been dealt by your dealer and the distributor in your LATIN country
I can only speak for Leaf here as I've been dealing with LATIN countries for a few years now
In EAMER, AP, Japan and Latin America countries we do not have a chained channel, meaning that the person you buy the kit from deals directly with Leaf and not via a distributor.
More than 50% of our dealers are trained to a level that allows them to handle 80% or repair cases, basically anything that doesn't require a sensor being replaced. The backs are designed with this in mind and these people can replace the whole electronics package within a few hours and have it all re-tested and re-calibrated "while-you-wait".
In US the channel is quite different but the MAC group and Leaf America are doing a great job in taking care of support and service nation-wide. They also take care of repairs states-side.
I understand your frustration about "their bad" but still what do they do when you're on set on location and the software crashes or the camera won't boot up? Who do you call? Mon-Fri 8am-5pm Pacific doesn't cover a lot of grounds for outside-US customers...
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185639\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Leaf here in the US is absolutely fabulous (thank you rick) but the points mentioned by eronald do ring true to a certain extent.
I believe most of asia pacific is handled by the Hong Kong dealer for Leaf, which means any repairs need to go through them. Can you confirm this?
Dealers usually don't have the items in stock straight away, they need to order from their distributors.
I'm not surprised if B&H ships faster to asia than waiting for a local dealer to supply you with a pricey piece of equipment
The prices I see for a lot of different brands of equipment are also jacked up to the point where it's about 20-50% more than the price I can get directly in New York, which makes it almost worthwhile to just buy a second backup piece of equipment.
A local dealer CAN lend you a replacement back but whether he WILL is another matter.
Does Leaf or Sinar have any policy that is worldwide that allows a customer to borrow a spare back from their dealer in the event of repairs for their own back?
And speaking from having my 75S not work properly over 7 months until recently,
when my back breaks chances are I pick up my Canon, I don't have the luxury to sit around and make a phone call to my 9-5 dealer who can't do anything apart from tell me to bring it in for repairs.
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A pro camera should be black, period.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185862\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have to agree.
-
A pro camera should be black, period.
-
Great bokeh
You stole my line
-
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185883\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is terrible, Yair has grown a sense of humor. AAAAAARRRRRGGGHHHHHH.
I had forgotten Hassy made throw-away cameras
Edmund
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deleted (dupe)
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First, thanks for the replies about the finder: it wasn't clear to me and it was not stated on the Sinar site. I didn't mean to start a scuffle about the 45 finder (heh heh heh ) - and the answer truly shows how....whatever.... the execution of this multi party collaboration is. Oh, you'd like that finder in black to match your camera: .
In fact there is one more issue regarding the 45 finder. When I saw the camera with the 45 finder at the nyc camera show I thought I heard that the rotating back will not work with it. Is this so?
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Examine my snapshot of the blue grey 45º prism,
and you'll see there's no clearance for a digital back to revolve.
However, according to Thierry the 90º finder will allow it.
-
How are you going to rotate the back with that finder? It looks to me as if it is going to get in the way of a rotating back...
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I don't know about the costs, but I'm telling, you Leaf and Sinar boys need to buy some spray paint and pimp that thing black because it doesn't look very cohesive.
[attachment=5850:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185827\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi James
What type of L bracket are you using as I am thinking of getting on for our Mamiya AFD. How do you find working with it.
Thanks Denis
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Hi James
What type of L bracket are you using as I am thinking of getting on for our Mamiya AFD. How do you find working with it.
Thanks Denis
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=185904\")
It's really right stuff and it's magic.
With their 55 ball head it snaps on and off from vertical to horizontal as fast as you can move you hands.
Well built and dead solid perfect.
I have them on all my cameras, (except the Leica).
[a href=\"http://reallyrightstuff.com/home.html]http://reallyrightstuff.com/home.html[/url]
JR
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Sorry James, as informed in my earlier post, Sinar has never had or shown a 45° finder with this color: the one Sinar will deliver is of the exactly same color as the camera, thus cohesive.
Best regards,
Thierry
I don't know about the costs, but I'm telling, you Leaf and Sinar boys need to buy some spray paint and pimp that thing black because it doesn't look very cohesive.
[attachment=5850:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185827\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Sorry James, as informed in my earlier post, Sinar has never had or shown a 45° finder with this color: the one Sinar will deliver is of the exactly same color as the camera, thus cohesive.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185924\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Theirry,
I think you need to get that Dick Tracy watch fixed.
I think it took you more than 25 minutes to spot this.
BTW: What color/colour is the Sinar HY6?
Is it black, black and blue, grey, grey and blue, or . . . .?
And Yair, how many shades of medium grey to dark black is the AFI, cause everytime I see it posted it looks different?
JR
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James,
it happens that I just woke up (see "User's local time" to get an idea when) and kept the topic "Hy6" for my last reading: otherwise I would have spotted it in 5 minutes!
But don't worry, all this shall change in a week of time.
This being said, I find your activity here also quite remarkable, those last weeks!
To have an idea of the Sinar Hy6 color:
http://www.sinarcameras.com/ (http://www.sinarcameras.com/)
Best regards,
Thierry
Theirry,
I think you need to get that Dick Tracy watch fixed.
I think it took you more than 25 minutes to spot this.
BTW: What color/colour is the Sinar HY6?
Is it black, black and blue, grey, grey and blue, or . . . .?
And Yair, how many shades of medium grey to dark black is the AFI, cause everytime I see it posted it looks different?
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185928\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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My Hy6 is black and dark grey. It looks good in the flesh. Having lots of fun with it in Tokyo.
Thierry, is there going to be a cable release for this camera in the near future?
I'm using the self timer with mirror up for longish exposures which is ok, but I miss what the Rollei cable on the 6008 could do - very useful indeed.
-
BTW,
April 01st today (here in Bangkok): be aware of and careful with any announcement!
Thierry
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I asked the same thing earlier. Perhaps Thierry is still looking into it?
How about the little things like short & long electronic cable releases when one doesn't want to fire the camera from the software/computer?
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Dear Carl,
yes, there is a cable release in preparation, but I have no ETA as for now (see also my addendum and answer to Billy's question above).
Best regards,
Thierry
My Hy6 is black and dark grey. It looks good in the flesh. Having lots of fun with it in Tokyo.
Thierry, is there going to be a cable release for this camera in the near future?
I'm using the self timer with mirror up for longish exposures which is ok, but I miss what the Rollei cable on the 6008 could do - very useful indeed.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185932\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Answered, Billy.
Was trying to get an ETA, but couldn't.
Thierry
I asked the same thing earlier. Perhaps Thierry is still looking into it?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185934\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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This modular finder system from Pentax is close to perfection in my opinion:
[attachment=5855:attachment]
I should have sent this to F&H, but didn't have a contact
so I made this suggestion to Jenoptik about a year ago
since Rollei's past 90º finders were either dark or had distortion.
Let's hope the upcoming 90º finder is better by far.
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Too bad the Hy6 design eliminated the threaded cable release socket that was present in Rollei camera bodies from SLX to 6008AF
Answered, Billy.
Was trying to get an ETA, but couldn't.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185938\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I'm referring to the traditional/analog threaded cable release socket (near the hotshoe)
The problem with that plug was that it was very hard to find out in the wild. A real pain if you wanted to make all kinds of external controls yourself and you needed to source such a DIN-plug.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185988\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Flat out, it's just lazy and dumb engineering to just remount the same 45 finder and handicap the REVOLVING (read as an absolute requirement for rectangular sensors) aspect of the backs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185937\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well now we know the reason why (it is just an adaptation of the old finder), but I still wonder if the 45 degree back rotates like the old one did, and if you could then rotate the back with the finder rotated out the way. This would mean you could still avoid removing the back.
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I can only give my opinion, for what it is worth, and those of the few photographers who have seen and tested this 90° finder (prototypes): very well designed, light and bright.
Thierry
Rest assured, the 90 degree finder for the Hy6 is a completely new design. It's high eyepoint and in no way comparable to that dreadful 6000 system 90 degree tele-finder. The new design is also the reason that it is only available after the 45 degree prism surfaced, while originally there was no 45 degree finder planned. (As explained the 45 degree prism is a touch-up of the old one, which is a very good finder, by the way.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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and for information: there was a "blue" version as well (the blue replacing the red)!
Thierry
Be happy they didn't follow one of the earlier color schemes with German traffic-orange (this one dating from 2006):
[attachment=5859:attachment]
For the real Hy6 afficionados: also take note of the badging...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185995\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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No, the 45º prism for the Hy6/AFi does not rotate like it did on the SLX/600x, but it can be taken off and remounted in different positions.
Well now we know the reason why (it is just an adaptation of the old finder), but I still wonder if the 45 degree back rotates like the old one did, and if you could then rotate the back with the finder rotated out the way. This would mean you could still avoid removing the back.
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No, the 45º prism for the Hy6/AFi does not rotate like it did on the SLX/600x, but it can be taken off and remounted in different positions.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=186066\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ok, so you could still remove the finder and then rotate the back. I think most people would rather do it that way to protect the sensor.
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Ok, so you could still remove the finder and then rotate the back. I think most people would rather do it that way to protect the sensor.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=186071\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hehe, I ws about to post that yesterday
It's true, but it makes fast interactive work a bit of a pain. SLRs are all about convenience.
Edmund
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Or you could do something really silly and mount the 45 finder sideways, and shoot the camera on its side and then you should be able to rotate the back. grip isn't placed well then though
Sheesh.
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I've had the good fortune of witnessing the Swiss development process a few times. It's kind of interesting because they make elementary usability mistakes, and do not factor user practice, user error or abuse into the product, so you tend to have some early product breakage when the rubber hits the road. The assumption is that not only will the buyer read the instructions, but he will follow them however contorted.
I still remember with affection the strange tiny connectors and exposed circuitry on a $2000 tabletop robot made by a company founded by some people I worked with. One needed a loupe to manipulate it. The next model was finally scaled up and had a plastic shell, after they figured out that students, do, yes, break things.
After a while, if one can make them admit the problems, they will fix them, slowly, and make the product work. Once it works it tends to be rock solid, because they are wonderfully good at keeping production in tolerance and they tend to use older, well established technology that does not break.
There is another problem that often occurs with the Swiss stuff - a tendency to use bespoke connectors, accessories, batteries etc in sizes which cannot be easily sourced. And a fanatical desire to conserve paper which translates into tiny, microscopic, print on the instruction manuals.
On the other hand, east-bloc technology (and Jenoptik was Zeiss Jena) has a tendency to be capable of withstanding terminal user abuse and bad environments, being designed for repair rather than replacement, and of being designed to be field-stripped.
I guess I like watching this process because I like pointing out mistakes
In fact, as a consultant I invoice for pointing out mistakes
When one only has lemons, I guess one should sell lemonade
Edmund
First there was a Hy6 with no 45 degree prism and no revolving connection to the back. Then independently from each other Sinar thought of making a revolving connection to their backs and F&H thought of adapting the old prism to work with the Hy6. In a way both developments could be seen as third party additions as they are not a result of centrally coordinated R&D, but rather stem from individual design teams in different companies. (Note that Leaf -the first one to adopt the 45 degree prism- does not have a revolving connection yet.) The poor interactivity is a pity of course, but on the other hand we would probably not have had any of the two options when they should have been developed through the Jenoptik Central Approval Commitee. So now we have a new accessory category for the Hy6: rookie products.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=186155\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Does anyone know if the old Rollei 45 prism can be modified to work on the Hy6/AFi? Because I use a 6008AF now and I have a 45 prism already. If I decided to go with one of these cameras, it would be nice to know I could just have the bottom plate changed on the 45 prism, rather than spend another 1500 dollars on an already expensive camera system. (At least I have the lenses!)
And one general note...I think people underestimate the availability of used lenses for this system. Yes, the new AFD lenses are very very expensive, but the older PQ lenses and even the HFT lenses will work fine on the camera...many are similar or the same optical design, and they can be had cheaply (for the more common focal lengths...50, 80, 150). Anyway, it is just a gentle reminder that while your dealer (and Sinar/Leaf) may want you to spend another 20,000 dollars on lenses, you can equip yourself rather well for a fraction of that, particularly if you are willing to forgo AF on some of your focal lengths.
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Please keep us posted here if in fact F&H will modify, and at what price.
Thanks.
Ask F&H if they could modify your prism finder. They probably can and will, at a price. I've always found them very willing to help me out with specific requests.
Does anyone know if the old Rollei 45 prism can be modified to work on the Hy6/AFi?
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Just noticed this Hy6 kit for sale on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sinar-Hy6-eMotion-75LV...1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/Sinar-Hy6-eMotion-75LV-w-5-year-Hot-Swap-warranty_W0QQitemZ330224843691QQihZ014QQcategoryZ31388QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
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I would go for that deal,however I already own a eMotion-75LV and have a Hy6 on order.
My deal is costing me a lot more.
Cheers,
Willem
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Hi folks,
just got an offer from calumt munich on a whole leaf afi 7 system, despite the 150mm lens everything seems to be available the next weeks here in germany, 45° and 90° prism as well.
But as the dealer told me, there won't be a revolving adaptor from leaf ever!!! I already played with the sinar hy6 with the adaptor and i really liked it, so what's up with leaf?
Maybe hopefully those guys at Calumet don't know what they are talking about (like usually) and someone (yaya?) could chime in here again...
cheers,
martin
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I think the fact that Sinar and Leaf make separate parts for the same camera is kind of ridiculous and off-putting for the customer. There should have been just one Hy6 with the same back mount if you ask me. That way the customer could buy the camera and pick the DB they like and Sinar and Leaf wouldn't have to make separate revolving adapters for example. The whole things is pretty confusing to me.
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Dear amsp,
The Hy6/AFi has the same mount/fix on the body side, but it's pretty difficult (impossible) having one same adapter (revolving or not) for the back side, knowing that the backs have different communication connections/points, not even speaking about the sizes and the designs which are different as well.
Beside this, and to my knowledge, there is no other part which differentiates the 2 cameras.
Best regards,
Thierry
There should have been just one Hy6 with the same back mount if you ask me. That way the customer could buy the camera and pick the DB they like and Sinar and Leaf wouldn't have to make separate revolving adapters for example. The whole things is pretty confusing to me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188421\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Except for the battery of course ...
Edmund
Dear amsp,
Beside this, and to my knowledge, there is no other part which differentiates the 2 cameras.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188424\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Yes.
Thierry
Except for the battery of course ...
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=188427\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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yes, there is a cable release in preparation, but I have no ETA as for now
Thierry, Since you're at Sinar in Switzerland
is there more information you can share?
Billy
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The Russian Rollei dealer sold me a Rollei flex Hy6 with a Sinar unrevolving adapter and a 45 degree viewfinder. The body works with my eMotion 54lv just fine. The body is 15% less expensive here in Russia than the Sinar offer.
Yevgeny
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There is a pretty good review on the AFi here:
http://www.peartreephoto.com/news.php?suba...rt_from=&ucat=& (http://www.peartreephoto.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1208941081&archive=&start_from=&ucat=&)
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Yair and Thierry,
I work in database software and note that there are many high-end database and datawarehouse packages - some that will cost over 100,000. It is difficult for academia and younger people to learn these technologies because of the price - it creates a very exclusive club for those that know how to run them. Recently, because of pressure from open source db software, Oracle for example, finally released an almost-free version of their db software that can run on one processor only. I applaud them for this and think it is awesome. That makes a huge difference in the number of people who can learn and later recommend their systems to employers. And the software can be used in low-intensity systems, helping unify an IT shop around one database without killing their budget.
So - to apply this to the Hy6. First, I am really glad that the Rollei system will be continued as I think it is the most complete MF system in existence, even compared to Contax 645 in its day. That said, I'm a Mamiya user on a cost basis. And, (oh my gosh!) I'm a film user! So my whole system is comparitively very inexpensive, and as I am a nature photographer I have a different process than people who need to provide 200 proofs on the internet every 3rd weekend after a wedding they shot. I drum scan negatives, and couldn't be happier with Velvia 50 and Pro160C. Okay - sorry - I digress a bit, but I want you to know where I'm coming from.
Here is the thing, the first is acheivable and the 2nd I'm not sure about. First: 5k per average lense is a LOT. Make 3 or 4 lenses, lets say 45, 80, 120, 200, and maybe 1 zoom, 75 - 200, that are $900 each (zoom can be a bit more, lets say 1400). Note that Schneider, in the large format business, did have more than one line and had some more 'entry level' glass along with their most advanced designs. Maybe even have another company make them, have Zeiss outsource with the Japanese company they use for the ZF lenses, for example. Something. This allows people to get a camera and the 3 or 4 lenses for a decent price.
If that were the case, they would sell soooooo many more in terms of units. And all of those people would stay up late at night wanting to upgrade their lenses, until one day they would - so it would benefit the lense makers.
And here is the part for Yair and Thierry - same thing with the MFDBs. What if there were a 12 megapixel 75 or 80% coverage back that were 3 or 5k American? Sort of like the Mamiya back, but even more extreme in its value proposition? I'll be they would sell like hotcakes. It would open MF and MFDB in this case to advanced amateurs and hobbyists, those could be bought for backup backs, etc. The whole HY6 system would possibly triple or quadruple. As it is, at 5k per lense and 20k or whatever per mfdb this is an extremely small club to belong to. Do what people are saying above, only give super-limited tethered shooting software and, heck provide Photoshop Elements. That would be fine. Someone who is really serious can buy Photoshop on their own. Elements is pretty powerful ...
Note that this would also help spread R&D and manu costs across a larger audience for the body of the camera itself and the advantages there would also be huge. The body cost could come down due to larger production runs - everyone wins!
I really, really think there is a huge market for a 3k or 5k relatively-low-MP back....... Huge!
Thanks,
LightMiner
http://photo.net/photos/LightMiner (http://photo.net/photos/LightMiner)
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Yair and Thierry,
I work in database software and note that there are many high-end database and datawarehouse packages - some that will cost over 100,000. It is difficult for academia and younger people to learn these technologies because of the price - it creates a very exclusive club for those that know how to run them. Recently, because of pressure from open source db software, Oracle for example, finally released an almost-free version of their db software that can run on one processor only. I applaud them for this and think it is awesome. That makes a huge difference in the number of people who can learn and later recommend their systems to employers. And the software can be used in low-intensity systems, helping unify an IT shop around one database without killing their budget.
So - to apply this to the Hy6. First, I am really glad that the Rollei system will be continued as I think it is the most complete MF system in existence, even compared to Contax 645 in its day. That said, I'm a Mamiya user on a cost basis. And, (oh my gosh!) I'm a film user! So my whole system is comparitively very inexpensive, and as I am a nature photographer I have a different process than people who need to provide 200 proofs on the internet every 3rd weekend after a wedding they shot. I drum scan negatives, and couldn't be happier with Velvia 50 and Pro160C. Okay - sorry - I digress a bit, but I want you to know where I'm coming from.
Here is the thing, the first is acheivable and the 2nd I'm not sure about. First: 5k per average lense is a LOT. Make 3 or 4 lenses, lets say 45, 80, 120, 200, and maybe 1 zoom, 75 - 200, that are $900 each (zoom can be a bit more, lets say 1400). Note that Schneider, in the large format business, did have more than one line and had some more 'entry level' glass along with their most advanced designs. Maybe even have another company make them, have Zeiss outsource with the Japanese company they use for the ZF lenses, for example. Something. This allows people to get a camera and the 3 or 4 lenses for a decent price.
If that were the case, they would sell soooooo many more in terms of units. And all of those people would stay up late at night wanting to upgrade their lenses, until one day they would - so it would benefit the lense makers.
And here is the part for Yair and Thierry - same thing with the MFDBs. What if there were a 12 megapixel 75 or 80% coverage back that were 3 or 5k American? Sort of like the Mamiya back, but even more extreme in its value proposition? I'll be they would sell like hotcakes. It would open MF and MFDB in this case to advanced amateurs and hobbyists, those could be bought for backup backs, etc. The whole HY6 system would possibly triple or quadruple. As it is, at 5k per lense and 20k or whatever per mfdb this is an extremely small club to belong to. Do what people are saying above, only give super-limited tethered shooting software and, heck provide Photoshop Elements. That would be fine. Someone who is really serious can buy Photoshop on their own. Elements is pretty powerful ...
Note that this would also help spread R&D and manu costs across a larger audience for the body of the camera itself and the advantages there would also be huge. The body cost could come down due to larger production runs - everyone wins!
I really, really think there is a huge market for a 3k or 5k relatively-low-MP back....... Huge!
Thanks,
LightMiner
http://photo.net/photos/LightMiner (http://photo.net/photos/LightMiner)
Dear LightMiner,
based on today's technology, R&D and manufacturing capabilities, a 5K 12MP digital back will mean a few thousands of dollars loss to any manufacturer who looks at such a proposition.
One can buy a 2nd hand or a refurbished 22MP back for not more than 5K, mostly less actually, yet there are allot more 21-25MP 35mm cameras being sold to the market you have mentioned as a target in the same price range.
Nice images of the Bahai temple in Haifa BTW
Yair
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back in the late 1980's and early 1990's Rollei tried something like this strategy:
- they had a bunch of glass made in the far east, for much less than the German made glass
- they made a lesser model - the 6002 instead of the 6006, and the 6003 less than the the 6008
- finally, they tried the 6001, which was a 6008 stripped out of electronics, altho I don't know that it was made for economy.
A modest entry point into the Rollei system was when the 6003 with lens, complete, was priced at about $3k, c. 1992.
It seems that the cost of labor and the small production runs just don't make this possible for them. The current European model (Leica, Sinar, Rollei) is small production, long life, and unfortunately high cost. One that seems to breakout of this is Zeiss, who have both quality and volume on their side, and resultantly, more reasonably priced products.
The future seems to be a slow walk down the path of reduced pricing, but no breakthroughs in approaching the market with simpler, modestly priced product. So for those of us looking for value, the used market is where to look.
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It seems that the cost of labor and the small production runs just don't make this possible for them. The current European model (Leica, Sinar, Rollei) is small production, long life, and unfortunately high cost. One that seems to breakout of this is Zeiss, who have both quality and volume on their side, and resultantly, more reasonably priced products.
Even Zeiss with their new models have some issues which didn't exist back then, like the CA and not quite razor-sharp corners inherent to some of the new designs. The new Zeiss ZF etc. lenses compare very well to most Canons and so on, but not necessarily to the older Contax lenses. One or two might make it as modern classics... Apparently it just takes a certain amount of money to *consistently* make top lenses and cameras.
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Dear LightMiner,
I can second every word from Yair: it is simply not viable and a loss of a few thousands of $ for manufacturers of DBs. It's probably not even possible to produce such a back at this price, even if we talk about a smaller sensor with less resolution.
Best regards,
Thierry
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Dear LightMiner,
I can second every word from Yair: it is simply not viable and a loss of a few thousands of $ for manufacturers of DBs. It's probably not even possible to produce such a back at this price, even if we talk about a smaller sensor with less resolution.
Best regards,
Thierry
Yes, interesting - thanks for the comments everyone. I did some more research and digital back price seems correlated mostly to sq cm, not MP (until you get into super-high MPs)... So reducing MPs doesn't help, I was thinking it was more correlated to MP.
Everyone's comments make sense - man all I can say is that this Hy6 is quite the exclusive club! Doesn't mean anyone is doing anything particularly wrong or that it shouldn't be, just reflecting on it... Maybe in 3 - 5 years if not lenses a back at least will naturally hit 5k from phase/leaf/sinar with tech progressing the way it does. Mamiya already hit 7k with a somehwat compromised back. (I've heard it can't be used on LF or Horseman/Alpa tech cameras, and its 14-bit, not 16 bit, etc.) And like people said the lenses can perhaps be had at reduced prices used, and that would create a 10/12k starter pack kind of thing I am thinking of.
Thanks!
LightMiner
http://photo.net/photos/LightMiner (http://photo.net/photos/LightMiner)