Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Tklimek on March 10, 2008, 01:46:51 am

Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Tklimek on March 10, 2008, 01:46:51 am
Epson 3800 or 4880 redux?  Good deal on 4880 right now...



Good evening folks.....

I've been reading this board for a few weeks, but this is my first posting.

First off, hat's off to Michael and gang and Luminous Landscape for putting out some truly great videos at some reasonable prices; I've purchased LLVJ 14-17 and both Lightroom and Camera to Print videos and have really enjoyed all of them.

So I'm pretty new to printing; never really thought of printing my photos too much before, and now want to "jump in".  I was really hyped up about getting a 3800 and went to a Calumet Photo in my city (Chicago) to get a demo of the printer.  While I was there I also saw the 4880.  Almost all of the reviews I've seen on the 3800 are solid; with the one disadvantage of not being able to use roll paper.  The ink swap (matte black/photo black) issue which seemed to plague earlier Epsons in terms of ink waste seems to have minimized/removed with the 3800.  Everything sounded really good.

Now however, I'm thinking about the 4880.  Part of that was reviewing the difference between roll and cut sheet paper.  In one example I found online, this information was found:

17x22” pre-cut sheets , 25 per box = $177; which comes out to about 46 feet of paper
17x50’ paper roll = $125; which is 4 feet longer than buying the pre-cut

So, in an absolutely perfect world, it would appear that by using the roll paper you save about $52 per 25 photos (at this size) and have a bit left over for fudge factor.

And then, I saw a pretty crazy deal seemingly going on at www.ShadesofPaper.com (I think there is a JDoyle on this board from that company).  The 4880 seems to be offered about $200 less than most other folks PLUS you get 3 rolls of paper.  Now I did not find out exactly what paper you get with this deal (is this retailer specific I wonder or an Epson offer?) but at the worst case scenario you've got some paper to mess about with and learn to use the printer.

So at Calumet, the 3800 goes for the typical $1,295 (plus you get a free Epson 3000 photo viewer) and the 4880 at the typical $1,995.  About a $700 difference.  The deal at Shades of Paper lessens that difference to $500 PLUS you get some paper.  Hmmmmmmmm.....

Unfortunately, I've not been able to find a good deal of information on the 4880.  I know that this has the latest Ultrachrome inks with the "Vivid Magenta", the carts are larger, it obviously comes with the ability to use roll paper, and my understanding from what I've read on the "Luminous Landscape" is that Epson has really minimized the ink loss that occurs with the blank ink swap (the black ink for the cart in use is expelled into the maintenance tank while the other ones are capped - in previous iterations it appears that all inks were expelled resulting in approx. a $75 ink waste per swap; for the 4800 at least).

So any kind of guidance from the group out there?  Any additional information about the 4880?  What do you think about this especially with the "deal" from ShadesofPaper?

I see that there have been a few discussions re:  3800 or 4880, so I thought I would add this on.  :-)

Cheers....

Todd
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: jpegman on March 10, 2008, 03:28:20 am
Quote
Epson 3800 or 4880 redux?  Good deal on 4880 right now...
Good evening folks.....

I've been reading this board for a few weeks, but this is my first posting.

First off, hat's off to Michael and gang and Luminous Landscape for putting out some truly great videos at some reasonable prices; I've purchased LLVJ 14-17 and both Lightroom and Camera to Print videos and have really enjoyed all of them.

So I'm pretty new to printing; never really thought of printing my photos too much before, and now want to "jump in".  I was really hyped up about getting a 3800 and went to a Calumet Photo in my city (Chicago) to get a demo of the printer.  While I was there I also saw the 4880.  Almost all of the reviews I've seen on the 3800 are solid; with the one disadvantage of not being able to use roll paper.  The ink swap (matte black/photo black) issue which seemed to plague earlier Epsons in terms of ink waste seems to have minimized/removed with the 3800.  Everything sounded really good.

Now however, I'm thinking about the 4880.  Part of that was reviewing the difference between roll and cut sheet paper.  In one example I found online, this information was found:

17x22” pre-cut sheets , 25 per box = $177; which comes out to about 46 feet of paper
17x50’ paper roll = $125; which is 4 feet longer than buying the pre-cut

So, in an absolutely perfect world, it would appear that by using the roll paper you save about $52 per 25 photos (at this size) and have a bit left over for fudge factor.

And then, I saw a pretty crazy deal seemingly going on at www.ShadesofPaper.com (I think there is a JDoyle on this board from that company).  The 4880 seems to be offered about $200 less than most other folks PLUS you get 3 rolls of paper.  Now I did not find out exactly what paper you get with this deal (is this retailer specific I wonder or an Epson offer?) but at the worst case scenario you've got some paper to mess about with and learn to use the printer.

So at Calumet, the 3800 goes for the typical $1,295 (plus you get a free Epson 3000 photo viewer) and the 4880 at the typical $1,995.  About a $700 difference.  The deal at Shades of Paper lessens that difference to $500 PLUS you get some paper.  Hmmmmmmmm.....

Unfortunately, I've not been able to find a good deal of information on the 4880.  I know that this has the latest Ultrachrome inks with the "Vivid Magenta", the carts are larger, it obviously comes with the ability to use roll paper, and my understanding from what I've read on the "Luminous Landscape" is that Epson has really minimized the ink loss that occurs with the blank ink swap (the black ink for the cart in use is expelled into the maintenance tank while the other ones are capped - in previous iterations it appears that all inks were expelled resulting in approx. a $75 ink waste per swap; for the 4800 at least).

So any kind of guidance from the group out there?  Any additional information about the 4880?  What do you think about this especially with the "deal" from ShadesofPaper?

I see that there have been a few discussions re:  3800 or 4880, so I thought I would add this on.  :-)

Cheers....

Todd
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=180342\")


Guess everything is relative - According to Wayne Fox, the 4000 wasted about $160 worht of ink for a round trip swap, the 4800 halved it to about $80 per swap, and the 4880 halved it again to about $40 per swap. In contrast, Eric Chan estimates a 3800 uses about $6 per swap.  Do 12 swaps a year (1 per month if you batch) for 4 years and the 4880 will waste about  $1920 worth of black ink, while the 3800 will waste $388 worth of ink. This assumes you will limit printing changes to batches across 12 print sessions per year - and unless you are selling a lot of prints or have ink to burn , the 4880's cost saving paper roll option is not going to be too cost effective, unless your roll printing volume is very high.

If you haven't seen it already, here on Fred Miranda forum is exactly the same 3800 vs 4880 discussion - [a href=\"http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/620511]http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/620511[/url]

It's not an easy choice to make - since you may be second guessing print choices knowing that if you really want to physically see what a print "looks like on the other paper", it's going to cost you $40 to find out!
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on March 10, 2008, 08:13:11 am
Quote
Guess everything is relative - According to Wayne Fox, the 4000 wasted about $160 worht of ink for a round trip swap, the 4800 halved it to about $80 per swap, and the 4880 halved it again to about $40 per swap.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=180351\")

The 4000 has MK and PK aboard ..... ?-)

Wonder why there's so much effort in comparing the switch waste of Epsons and no alternative brand mentioned that doesn't need a switch. The Canon 17" models may not be the champions in ink use in general but you do not need to switch blacks on them.


Ernst Dinkla

try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: titusbear on March 10, 2008, 08:17:20 am
And then, I saw a pretty crazy deal seemingly going on at www.ShadesofPaper.com (I think there is a JDoyle on this board from that company).  The 4880 seems to be offered about $200 less than most other folks PLUS you get 3 rolls of paper.  Now I did not find out exactly what paper you get with this deal (is this retailer specific I wonder or an Epson offer?) but at the worst case scenario you've got some paper to mess about with and learn to use the printer.


I've purchased a 4880, ink,  and paper from Shades of Paper - and found them to be a very reputable, cost-effective vendor.  Their staff is knowledgeable, and helpful.  They're a certified Epson pro dealer, and ink/paper arrives 'fresh' and well packaged.  


I've run probably ten dozen 'art' prints , and I find the 4880 to be a very well built, (+/- 1/100's of a mm. tolerances - according to the repair manual), easy to use machine, especially with QImage. The 220 ml carts are cost effective, and imposing (second only, I guess, to the 700 ml carts in the 11880).  The only 'gripe' I have so far is trying to figure out how to take off the lexan plastic doors (which stay open to allow for the 220 carts).

The 4880 is obviously, from it's build and design, a commercial/pro grade machine that should last for thousands of prints.   The 3800 is a good machine - capable of very fine /museum-grade prints, but not in the same 'build' class as 4880.

e/tb
contemplativeeye.com
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Tklimek on March 10, 2008, 08:40:55 am
Thank you for the reply.

I had not seen the thread on the Fred Miranda forum and will check it out.

Thanks!

Quote
Guess everything is relative - According to Wayne Fox, the 4000 wasted about $160 worht of ink for a round trip swap, the 4800 halved it to about $80 per swap, and the 4880 halved it again to about $40 per swap. In contrast, Eric Chan estimates a 3800 uses about $6 per swap.  Do 12 swaps a year (1 per month if you batch) for 4 years and the 4880 will waste about  $1920 worth of black ink, while the 3800 will waste $388 worth of ink. This assumes you will limit printing changes to batches across 12 print sessions per year - and unless you are selling a lot of prints or have ink to burn , the 4880's cost saving paper roll option is not going to be too cost effective, unless your roll printing volume is very high.

If you haven't seen it already, here on Fred Miranda forum is exactly the same 3800 vs 4880 discussion - http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/620511 (http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/620511)

It's not an easy choice to make - since you may be second guessing print choices knowing that if you really want to physically see what a print "looks like on the other paper", it's going to cost you $40 to find out!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180351\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Mike_L on March 10, 2008, 05:04:43 pm
I just purchased a 4880 over a 3800 for the following reasons:

1. There is a $200 rebate for previous Epson Pro Printer owners.
2. I receved $500 worth of Epson Exhibition Fiber paper for free.
3. The 4880 has the latest inks (vivid magenta's)
4. Even though I liked the smaller footprint of the 3800, I determined that the 4880 would fit the desk space I had reserved for a new printer.
5. Roll paper capability
6. Ability to make longer panoramic prints

Initially I was leaning towards a 3800 since it doesn't require black ink swapping, however, I decided I could stick with Photo Black due to the latest paper advances.  

BTW:  I purchased mine at IT Supplies out of Chicago.  And note that even though it lists for $1995 on the website, when you add it to the shopping cart the price is actually $1799 and that doesn't include the rebate.  And shipping is free.  The bottom line is I got a 4880 for $1799 minus a $200 rebate plus $500 worth of paper.  Not a bad deal if I do say so myself.

mike
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Dale_Cotton on March 10, 2008, 05:30:45 pm
A few points:

a) On the plus side for roll paper: there aren't a lot of 17x25" papers available and the more common 17x22" may not meet your needs. Still: when you need a non-standard paper size, you can always buy a roll, cut it by hand, then feed that as a custom-size sheet.

b) On the minus side for roll paper: you have to de-curl each and every print. Many of us use sheet paper just to avoid this minor hassle.

c) The 3800 has a utility that reports the exact ink usage for every job to the nearest 1/100th ml. I've done multiple ink swaps using a 1 pixel non-black image file and the usage reported is consistently 1.2 ml for PK->MK and 3.2 for MK->PK. You'll have to price that yourself but for me it's $3.32 per swap, but in the US you can probably do better. Chump change compared to the 12 ml hit I took when I failed to print for a few days and the 3800 decided it was time to do an auto-nozzle-clean. (I doubt the 4880 driver would do any differently.)
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Tklimek on March 11, 2008, 12:29:06 am
Quote
A few points:

a) On the plus side for roll paper: there aren't a lot of 17x25" papers available and the more common 17x22" may not meet your needs. Still: when you need a non-standard paper size, you can always buy a roll, cut it by hand, then feed that as a custom-size sheet.

 On the minus side for roll paper: you have to de-curl each and every print. Many of us use sheet paper just to avoid this minor hassle.

c) The 3800 has a utility that reports the exact ink usage for every job to the nearest 1/100th ml. I've done multiple ink swaps using a 1 pixel non-black image file and the usage reported is consistently 1.2 ml for PK->MK and 3.2 for MK->PK. You'll have to price that yourself but for me it's $3.32 per swap, but in the US you can probably do better. Chump change compared to the 12 ml hit I took when I failed to print for a few days and the 3800 decided it was time to do an auto-nozzle-clean. (I doubt the 4880 driver would do any differently.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180481\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thank you Dale.  At the moment, I'm thinking that having to de-curl should not be an issue for me.

I did check and see what papers were available for the offer; and I added up 3 of the available offers (the 17x22 cut sheet Exhibition Fiber) and came up to approx. $587.  I don't think the $1799 price would apply to me however since I'm not a previous Epson Pro owner...  :-(  .  Oh well, still, with the paper offer, and the more ink from the get-go, I'm figuring I'm getting the actual printer for almost the same amount of $$$ (minus the free P-3000 picture viewer which is currently offered with the 3800; that would be nice but not really necessary for me at the moment).  Sounds like I have until the end of March to decide if I want to score on the free paper offer.    

Cheers.....
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: P Macino on March 11, 2008, 02:43:15 am
Quote
and unless you are selling a lot of prints or have ink to burn , the 4880's cost saving paper roll option is not going to be too cost effective, unless your roll printing volume is very high.

I had the 3800, sold it and bought the 4880 a few months back. The difference of "roll vs. sheet" in cost for most papers is about half (or more) when you price it out by square foot. You don't need a lot of volume to make up the ground. I have a pretty robust Excel sheet where I figured the COGs per print for my business. Bottom line, costs went down, margins grew, profit grew. You don't need to be in business to reap the benefits either.

For example take a sheet of Ultra Premium Luster to make 16"x20"s

$75.95 for 25 sheets of 17x22  from ITSupplies= $3.04 each, ink aside

from a 16'x 100' roll of Ultra Premium Luster (260) also from IT Supplies, you can get 60 (100ft = 1200 inches/20 inches = 60) 16'"x20"s per roll for $78.99, that's $1.31 each.

This formula is pretty consistent all around...some papers, vary more or less of course, but the savings is always rather large.

On top of the paper, the ink is cheaper per ml with the 4880.
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: duraace on March 11, 2008, 12:26:11 pm
Quote
I had the 3800, sold it and bought the 4880 a few months back. The difference of "roll vs. sheet" in cost for most papers is about half (or more) when you price it out by square foot. You don't need a lot of volume to make up the ground. I have a pretty robust Excel sheet where I figured the COGs per print for my business. Bottom line, costs went down, margins grew, profit grew. You don't need to be in business to reap the benefits either.

For example take a sheet of Ultra Premium Luster to make 16"x20"s

$75.95 for 25 sheets of 17x22  from ITSupplies= $3.04 each, ink aside

from a 16'x 100' roll of Ultra Premium Luster (260) also from IT Supplies, you can get 60 (100ft = 1200 inches/20 inches = 60) 16'"x20"s per roll for $78.99, that's $1.31 each.

This formula is pretty consistent all around...some papers, vary more or less of course, but the savings is always rather large.

On top of the paper, the ink is cheaper per ml with the 4880.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180540\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Probably comes down to whether you have commercial needs or not.  The 3800 is clearly more of a pro-summer model.  It would take me (home user) a very long time to realize a $700 savings in paper using a 4880.  If I were an imagining business, an even wider model might make more sense.
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Nill Toulme on March 11, 2008, 01:58:45 pm
Quote
...  The only 'gripe' I have so far is trying to figure out how to take off the lexan plastic doors (which stay open to allow for the 220 carts).
...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180395\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Assuming it's the same as the 4800, you carefully pull the door straight towards you, away from the machine, as gently as possible, one side at a time.  The snapon hinges look like this:

(http://www.toulme.net/misc/epson-door-hinge.jpg)

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Tklimek on March 11, 2008, 03:03:52 pm
Well this is very intersting now.

The paper is something that everyone certainly can use; I've looked at the paper that is available for this offer (for either 3 rolls or other cut sheet paper) and they actually look "useful".  So the price difference between the 3800 and the 4880 is $700.  With somewhere between $500 - $600 of "Free" paper (only if it's actually useful; and it appears to be), the cost difference between the two printers is now only $100 - $200.  Add in the fact that you are actually getting more ink in the box with the 4880, the cost is almost a wash.  Granted there is a promotion for the 3800 which gives you a free Epson picture viewer; which is nice but we are talking about printing here.      So right now I'm really leaning towards the 4880.  I'd like to call Calumet and see if they honor any of these offers because I'd like to support a local store, and the Chicago Calumet is like 4 minutes from my house.

Now...I just have to sell the wife on this idea....    

Cheers....
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: P Macino on March 11, 2008, 05:16:52 pm
Quote
Well this is very intersting now.

The paper is something that everyone certainly can use; I've looked at the paper that is available for this offer (for either 3 rolls or other cut sheet paper) and they actually look "useful".  So the price difference between the 3800 and the 4880 is $700.  With somewhere between $500 - $600 of "Free" paper (only if it's actually useful; and it appears to be), the cost difference between the two printers is now only $100 - $200.  Add in the fact that you are actually getting more ink in the box with the 4880, the cost is almost a wash.  Granted there is a promotion for the 3800 which gives you a free Epson picture viewer; which is nice but we are talking about printing here.      So right now I'm really leaning towards the 4880.  I'd like to call Calumet and see if they honor any of these offers because I'd like to support a local store, and the Chicago Calumet is like 4 minutes from my house.

Now...I just have to sell the wife on this idea....   

Cheers....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180657\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

To be completely fair here...(I'm all for being an enabler)

The 4880 will consume a lot more ink in it's initial line charge. almost 55 ml or 50% of its first 110 ml cartridges.

My experience with the 3800 was that it only used about 16 ml (20%) to charge its lines.

Make sure you have enough space for it too. It is deceptively large and heavy. I would only consider it a "desktop printer" if you have an open back table or desk. If you have a desk butted up against a wall, it won't work. It does get delivered on a pallet.
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: duraace on March 11, 2008, 05:23:18 pm
Quote
To be completely fair here...(I'm all for being an enabler)

 It does get delivered on a pallet.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180680\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's a non starter for me.  Too much printer for a home office. Also, wouldn't the shipping costs for a pallet item be considerably higher?  The 3800 comes in a box, which you can still carry (barely).
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Tklimek on March 11, 2008, 05:36:10 pm
Quote
That's a non starter for me.  Too much printer for a home office. Also, wouldn't the shipping costs for a pallet item be considerably higher?  The 3800 comes in a box, which you can still carry (barely).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180683\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I need to check the dimensions again and see if I can wrangle a space for it; tight for sure.  I was also considering a seperate stand for it as well (I've seen some advertised specifically for it, but would try to make due with something from IKEA).

As far as shipping; luckily for me I can drive my Honda CR-V for 4 minutes at be at Calumet's loading dock.    

I did call Calumet and they would honor the "March Madness" Epson paper special, so that really helps.  Calumet also has the wonderful "Bill Me Later" option which allows 3 months interest free financing; now that is really enticing.

As far as the amount of ink needed to prime the lines, I suppose that will be a startup cost regardless of the printer you get; but just to different levels.  So in the end, it may cost about $200 more (after factoring in the free paper, the larger ink "in the box", and the larger amount of ink lost to prime the lines) than the 3800.  Sounds like if I could wrangle the space for it, $200 more that the pro-sumer model might be not too bad a choice.

Does that logic seem to hold up?  Remember.....whatever I come up with will need to pass the CFO's review (wifey).  

Cheers again...

TK
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: P Macino on March 11, 2008, 07:42:16 pm
Quote
I need to check the dimensions again and see if I can wrangle a space for it; tight for sure.  I was also considering a seperate stand for it as well (I've seen some advertised specifically for it, but would try to make due with something from IKEA).

As far as shipping; luckily for me I can drive my Honda CR-V for 4 minutes at be at Calumet's loading dock.     

I did call Calumet and they would honor the "March Madness" Epson paper special, so that really helps.  Calumet also has the wonderful "Bill Me Later" option which allows 3 months interest free financing; now that is really enticing.

As far as the amount of ink needed to prime the lines, I suppose that will be a startup cost regardless of the printer you get; but just to different levels.  So in the end, it may cost about $200 more (after factoring in the free paper, the larger ink "in the box", and the larger amount of ink lost to prime the lines) than the 3800.  Sounds like if I could wrangle the space for it, $200 more that the pro-sumer model might be not too bad a choice.

Does that logic seem to hold up?  Remember.....whatever I come up with will need to pass the CFO's review (wifey).  

Cheers again...

TK
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180685\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Makes total sense to me...just check on the box size. It almost didn't fit in my (new/larger)Grand Cherokee, even after lifting it off the pallet and leaving it behind. You'll definately need two people to load/unload.
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Nill Toulme on March 11, 2008, 08:22:13 pm
The 4800 is about the size of a Mini Cooper.  

The IKEA kitchen piece recommended on this site (here (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/accessories/ultimate-stand.shtml)) makes a great stand for it.  I liked it so much I bought a second one for the drawer space and as a stand for my cutter.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Mike_L on March 11, 2008, 08:34:05 pm
Just to clarify.... the $1799 price at IT Supplies does not include the rebate for previous owners... that's the price for everyone and shipping is free.  

Also, here's an interesting article by Andy Biggs on a 4880 stand option:  

http://www.andybiggs.com/article_Epson4000desk.html (http://www.andybiggs.com/article_Epson4000desk.html)

Finally, here's the list of papers available on the 4880 deal:

http://www.itsupplies.com/isroot/itsupplie...igibleMedia.pdf (http://www.itsupplies.com/isroot/itsupplies/ImagesOnline/EpsonProImaging_EligibleMedia.pdf)

As far as I can tell nearly every Epson paper is included.  I opted for three boxes of Exhibition Fiber at a value of $500.

Regards,
mike
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: titusbear on March 11, 2008, 08:53:19 pm
Quote from: P Macino,Mar 11 2008, 04:16 PM
To be completely fair here...(I'm all for being an enabler)

The 4880 will consume a lot more ink in it's initial line charge. almost 55 ml or 50% of its first 110 ml cartridges.
_________

I've found that in order to charge lines on a 4880 it uses:

MK - 41.8ml,  C - 40.7ml, VM - 39.5ml, Y - 40.7ml, LK - 41.8ml, LC - 40.7ml, VLM - 39.5ml, LLK - 40.7ml.   Waste tank showing 28% used (72% available).
Since them I've printed 64 pages full coverage (17X22) - and am still running on the original 110ml carts.  ML's remaining:

MK - 55, C - 44, VM - 48, Y - 32, LK - 13, LC - 34, VLM - 28, LLK - 48, Waste tank - 72 available.    Seems to burn through LK, with MK/C/LLK the least used.

Once the original 110's are gone - will switch to all 220's for economy of scale.
Great machine - with one caveat...... it needs a BIG sign on the front of the machine (for left-handed scientists/artists - Yale/Columbia grads) that reads  "set left hand paper guide" (for Princeton /Harvard grads - hire Geek Squad to figure it out for you).   Forget to do that and the paper feeds skewed and machine balks - set it properly (1 sec of work) and the machine works like a bear.
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: pss on March 11, 2008, 10:55:21 pm
i have the 4800 and never switch the blacks so that is not an issue for me...the 4800/4880 have the paper tray, the back feed and a straight back feed and of course the roll paper feed, the 4800/4880 take larger carts which make printing cheaper...they also come with full 110ml carts.....afaik the 3800 only comes with half carts (a friend of mine has one and told me so...) so yes it takes less to charge the printer but it comes with a lot less ink....the 3800 prints full frame on sheets, no borders....i don't think the 4880 can do that, it prints w/o border on roll paper (and cuts w/o border) but i don't think it can do it on sheets...the 4800 cannot do either...

if you need to run big runs (100 smaller prints) or want roll paper go 4880....the cheaper ink will come in handy as well....
for all others the 3800 might be better....it is also more quiet....
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: jdoyle1713 on March 12, 2008, 07:18:22 am
This Is By Far The best Epson Program I Have seen!!

Yes Three free Rolls Of Media Buyers Choice!!

Awesome deal!

Cheers
Jim Doyle
http://www.shadesofpaper.com (http://www.shadesofpaper.com)
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: titusbear on March 12, 2008, 08:17:15 am
Thanks for the information - worked as suggested.


Assuming it's the same as the 4800, you carefully pull the door straight towards you, away from the machine, as gently as possible, one side at a time.  The snapon hinges look like this:
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: 01af on March 12, 2008, 09:33:44 am
Quote
... the 3800 only comes with half carts ...[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180738\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not true! At 80 ml, the 3800's cartridges are smaller than the 4800/4880's---but the set of nine carts that initially come with the printer are full.

Just like any inkjet printer, the 3800 uses part of the initial ink load to charge the ink lines. That ink is not wasted but will get used eventually. After inital set-up, the ink levels are around 70 % per channel. Inexperienced users may confuse this with carts not full.

-- Olaf
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: pss on March 12, 2008, 04:12:12 pm
Quote
Not true! At 80 ml, the 3800's cartridges are smaller than the 4800/4880's---but the set of nine carts that initially come with the printer are full.

Just like any inkjet printer, the 3800 uses part of the initial ink load to charge the ink lines. That ink is not wasted but will get used eventually. After inital set-up, the ink levels are around 70 % per channel. Inexperienced users may confuse this with carts not full.

-- Olaf
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180830\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


maybe that is what my friend was referring to....i had the 4000 before the 4800 and both (the 4800 much less actually) used some ink to get started but like you say, the ink is not lost anyway.....
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Tklimek on March 14, 2008, 12:17:04 am
Thank you everyone for all of the comments and suggestions; I believe I will most likely get a 4880.

My decisions now are to review costs:

IT Supplies in Chicago area:
$1799 for printer
No shipping cost
Free paper offer

Calumet in Chicago:
$1995 for printer
Unsure of shipping cost
Free paper offer
"Bill me later" option for 90 days interest free financing.

The "Bill me later" option is very tempting, but at a cost of $200 more for the printer and an "unknown" for the shipping.  I'll need to think about this while I'm on vacation.

Now I need to post another topic......which paper!!

Cheers...

Todd
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: billg71 on March 14, 2008, 11:31:10 pm
I'll suggest you check out the shipping part very carefully....

This is not a small printer, it comes strapped to a pallet and weighs well over a hundred pounds as shipped. UPS/FedEx won't touch it, it'll go "common carrier" which means it goes on the first truck with space out of the local shipping yard and then get transferred at the destination city to a local carrier who will bring it to your house, ring your doorbell and tell you it's sitting at the curb. Sign here, please, and have fun!!

IMHO, there's a strong case to be made for buying something like this locally if there's a dealer nearby. You should get delivery, unpacking and install as a courtesy from a local dealer, not to mention somewhere you can go to look someone in the face and ask questions if you need to.

If you do order it online, ask the vendor about something equivalent to B&H's White Glove Delivery service. That way the deliverer will take it inside your house, unpack it and set it up on the table or stand. They won't do the actual installation but at least it'll be inside and where you want it.

Just something else to think about.....

Bill
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Tklimek on March 25, 2008, 09:47:13 pm
Thank you all for the great information.

I'm happy to report that I'll be purchasing the 4880 as it seems too good of a deal to pass up.

I'll be purchasing it from my LOCAL Calumet store (about 4 minutes away from my house - lucky!) who have agreed to price match another Illinois store.

So I'll be getting the printer for $1,799, no shipping; I'm driving a truck over to pick it up.

I'll be getting the Epson "March Madness" sale and get what amounts to about $500 in free paper.

I'll also be getting a 3 months no-interest financing through Calumet.

My salesperson also recommended getting the $90 additional 3 year warranty; I figured it couldn't hurt so I'm doing that as well.

Now I just need to figure out what I'm going to print and where I'll put that beast!

I'm taking suggestions for the *free* paper rolls to choose from in another thread, so if you have any suggestions I'd appreciate them.  I just looked again at the sample prints Calumet provided to me on Epson Premium Lustre and for some reason (can't really pin it); doesn't seem to really please me.  I think I'll end up going more "matte".

The whole concept here (I know...probably a bad idea...really need to stop coming up with these *ideas* after drinking wine... ;-)  ), is to sell matted and bagged prints for relatively inexpensive prices and pay off the printer in 2-3 years.  If I can do that I would have accomplished my goal.  If I can do better than that.... YIPPEE!  It comes out to making about $35 a print (profit) and about 2 prints a months for 3 years.  I may simply end up with a bunch of matted prints and a very expensive printer on my desk....  ;-)  Such is the adventure that is life.

Thanks again!

 
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: duraace on March 25, 2008, 10:43:51 pm
Quote
I'll also be getting a 3 months no-interest financing through Calumet.
 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184313\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That knocks the price down even further, providing you take the total amount and put it into some guaranteed high interest account.  They're betting you'll forget to pay by the due date, and they won't give you a minute grace.  That's the only downside.  I've done it a few times, set a reminder to myself, and saved about $600. Good move on the printer. Sounds like a great deal.
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Mark D Segal on March 26, 2008, 11:28:58 am
Quote
c) The 3800 has a utility that reports the exact ink usage for every job to the nearest 1/100th ml.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180481\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dale, I've been looking for this utility but can't seem to access it. Could you please describe the path to me? Also, does it track the usage of ink consumed in cleanings?

Mark
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Nill Toulme on March 26, 2008, 12:14:52 pm
Quote
...no shipping; I'm driving a truck over to pick it up.
...

Take a friend with you!

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Tklimek on March 26, 2008, 05:30:16 pm
Thanks Nil!  I most certainly will; either my wife or a friend will be there to help; it's kind of a beast for a desktop.

I've made some measurements at the store yesterday; 14 inches high is enough clearance, the more the better obviously, and I think I can get away with about 22 inches deep, and about 33 inches wide.  I think I have a spot on my desk that will accomodate it.

I believe the printer weighs in at 89 pounds, plus packing etc. I'm guessing no more than 150 pounds total for picking it up.

Sounds like fun!!  
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Dale_Cotton on March 26, 2008, 06:52:29 pm
MarkDS wrote:
Quote
Dale, I've been looking for this utility but can't seem to access it. Could you please describe the path to me?
Mark: I'm running XP. There is a Start menu folder called Epson LFP Remote Panel that has a shortcut to the app by the same name. One of the applets launchable from that app is a resident app called Print Watcher. Right-clicking on the Print Watcher icon in the Tool Tray brings up Show Job Logs.

Quote
Also, does it track the usage of ink consumed in cleanings?
It tracks every ink consumption event including discrete cleanings. I suspect that each time I start the printer part of the busy-ness that follows involves a mini-clean, if so, ink consumption from that is not recorded. But once when I left the printer off for a few days in a row it proceeded to do a major clean either at start-up or before the first job and logged that as consuming some 12 ml of ink, if I remember correctly.
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Mark D Segal on March 26, 2008, 08:50:43 pm
Quote
MarkDS wrote:

Mark: I'm running XP. There is a Start menu folder called Epson LFP Remote Panel that has a shortcut to the app by the same name. One of the applets launchable from that app is a resident app called Print Watcher. Right-clicking on the Print Watcher icon in the Tool Tray brings up Show Job Logs.
It tracks every ink consumption event including discrete cleanings. I suspect that each time I start the printer part of the busy-ness that follows involves a mini-clean, if so, ink consumption from that is not recorded. But once when I left the printer off for a few days in a row it proceeded to do a major clean either at start-up or before the first job and logged that as consuming some 12 ml of ink, if I remember correctly.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184561\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Dale, I'm running XP also, so I shall track that down. I have the printer in the systray alright, but for reasons I don't know, (using driver 5.51), the route to the Print Watcher is different; anyhow I got there, but a set-up menu appears and seems to require that the printer be on. So next printing session. Interestingly this particular feature is not covered in the manual.
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: mmurph on March 27, 2008, 12:10:35 am
I picked up an Epson 7880, boxed, in a Honda CRV last fall. No problem, slides right in.

My wife and I carried up an Epson 7600 with ink last weekend to our second floor. Again, no real problem.

See if you can find a $200 Epson 4000, then use that serial number for the rebate for previous owners. You can run matte on that and get it for free.  

I have never had to de-curl the 3" core rolls for photo papers. Only the matte/fine art papers.

For 3 years I printed all photo Black on my 7600 and never swapped inks.  I was perfectly happy, so swapping may or may not be an issue for you.

Have fun!

Best,
Michael
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Mark D Segal on March 27, 2008, 08:48:05 am
Quote
I picked up an Epson 7880, boxed, in a Honda CRV last fall. No problem, slides right in.

My wife and I carried up an Epson 7600 with ink last weekend to our second floor. Again, no real problem.

See if you can find a $200 Epson 4000, then use that serial number for the rebate for previous owners. You can run matte on that and get it for free.   

I have never had to de-curl the 3" core rolls for photo papers. Only the matte/fine art papers.

For 3 years I printed all photo Black on my 7600 and never swapped inks.  I was perfectly happy, so swapping may or may not be an issue for you.

Have fun!

Best,
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184608\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The reason why swapping isn't an issue with the 4000 and the 7600 is that those printers do not use an inkset which requires swapping. Therefore it is feasible to print on both matte and non-matte media with the same inkset by design.

The swapping problem only emerged with the x800 series printers using K3 inks, because Epson addressed the metamerism and bronzing issues associated with those printers by changing the configuration and chemistry of the black inks.

Metamerism was addressed by introducing a light-light black eliminating the need for mixing C, M and Y to produce light grey, and the rendition of black was improved by customizing black to the paper surface.

At the same time they did not redesign the printer to accommodate nine tanks rather than eight, and provide a separate channel for the 4th black. That was their big mistake, from which they began to emerge with 3800, did not emerge with the 4880, and will likely re-emerge when the 11880 technology is imported into the smaller size pro-printers at a time and at a price which we don't know yet.  

There is an improvement in the quality of black and white work in the 4800 relative to the 4000. For colour work the difference between them is negligible.
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Ernst Dinkla on March 27, 2008, 09:41:53 am
Quote
The reason why swapping isn't an issue with the 4000 and the 7600 is that those printers do not use an inkset which requires swapping. Therefore it is feasible to print on both matte and non-matte media with the same inkset by design.

The swapping problem only emerged with the x800 series printers using K3 inks, because Epson addressed the metamerism and bronzing issues associated with those printers by changing the configuration and chemistry of the black inks.

Metamerism was addressed by introducing a light-light black eliminating the need for mixing C, M and Y to produce light grey, and the rendition of black was improved by customizing black to the paper surface.

At the same time they did not redesign the printer to accommodate nine tanks rather than eight, and provide a separate channel for the 4th black. That was their big mistake, from which they began to emerge with 3800, did not emerge with the 4880, and will likely re-emerge when the 11880 technology is imported into the smaller size pro-printers at a time and at a price which we don't know yet. 

There is an improvement in the quality of black and white work in the 4800 relative to the 4000. For colour work the difference between them is negligible.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=184658\")

All the wide format models of Epson need ink swapping. The exceptions are the 4000, 11880, 3800 (to a degree) and the dye ink models that existed before the x800 range. In Epsons's theory the Archival pigment versions 7500, 9500, 10000 and 5500 could print on gloss and matte but they suffered from many compromises in the inkset. The 4000 had a UC inkset with both PK and MK aboard but a gray ink less, the 7600 UC model needed swapping between PK and MK (7 channel head), only the dye version didn't need swapping.

If one prints gloss and matte quite regular than a 3800 would be much more economic than a 4800. A Canon iPF5100 a more pro alternative. And there's the phatte black solution of Imageprint where PK takes the place of a gray ink on the UC models


Ernst Dinkla

Try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Mark D Segal on March 27, 2008, 02:59:56 pm
Quote
MarkDS wrote:

Mark: I'm running XP. There is a Start menu folder called Epson LFP Remote Panel that has a shortcut to the app by the same name. One of the applets launchable from that app is a resident app called Print Watcher. Right-clicking on the Print Watcher icon in the Tool Tray brings up Show Job Logs.
It tracks every ink consumption event including discrete cleanings. I suspect that each time I start the printer part of the busy-ness that follows involves a mini-clean, if so, ink consumption from that is not recorded. But once when I left the printer off for a few days in a row it proceeded to do a major clean either at start-up or before the first job and logged that as consuming some 12 ml of ink, if I remember correctly.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184561\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dale, OK I got all that going, and thanks again for pointing me to the information - here's my take on it: most of the time when you start the printer, it is not cleaning. It is charging-up the lines, which is a different story - thank goodness. Sometimes when it starts-up it does do a cleaning - you can differentiate that because it makes more and different noises and takes longer. When that happens, take a look in the job log and see whether it logs it. I shall be doing so too. If it doesn't log all the ink being used for cleaning, it is a step backward from previous information Epson gave us - the nozzle check pages always showed how much ink was used for cleaning if we printed it before making prints and just after a cleaning.
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Dale_Cotton on March 27, 2008, 06:53:30 pm
Mark: you still have the cumulative number on the nozzle check printout. I see no sign of any entry for start-up cleanings in the log. Today when I started the printer it behaved as usual; then when I sent the first job through it did an auto-clean before printing. This doesn't show as a separate entry in the log, it shows the extra ink combined with the ink used for the print job that triggered the clean.

Since I've printed this file before, I simply subtract the normal ink use per cartridge from the new ink use to get the cleaning amount. This one was a whopper at 19 ml or $15 by my calculation. And in this case it didn't occur because I hadn't been printing regularly: I did a letter-size print yesterday just to keep it happy.

My suspicion is that it wants to see N ml of ink go through the nozzles per day in print jobs to keep the nozzles clean. If some number less than N goes through over a few days, then it simply does a clean to use up the difference. I'm sure it's more complicated then that, but I wonder how close that is to the truth...

(BTW: I'm not complaining about this, just reporting. If that's what it takes to prevent clogs, then that's what it takes. Just the price we pay for using pigment/archival ink.)
Title: Epson 3800 or 4880 redux? Good deal on 4880 right
Post by: Mark D Segal on March 27, 2008, 07:17:59 pm
Quote
Mark: you still have the cumulative number on the nozzle check printout. I see no sign of any entry for start-up cleanings in the log. Today when I started the printer it behaved as usual; then when I sent the first job through it did an auto-clean before printing. This doesn't show as a separate entry in the log, it shows the extra ink combined with the ink used for the print job that triggered the clean.

Since I've printed this file before, I simply subtract the normal ink use per cartridge from the new ink use to get the cleaning amount. This one was a whopper at 19 ml or $15 by my calculation. And in this case it didn't occur because I hadn't been printing regularly: I did a letter-size print yesterday just to keep it happy.

My suspicion is that it wants to see N ml of ink go through the nozzles per day in print jobs to keep the nozzles clean. If some number less than N goes through over a few days, then it simply does a clean to use up the difference. I'm sure it's more complicated then that, but I wonder how close that is to the truth...

(BTW: I'm not complaining about this, just reporting. If that's what it takes to prevent clogs, then that's what it takes. Just the price we pay for using pigment/archival ink.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184794\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dale, yes - that's the problem - it's bundling cleaning accounting with printing accounting - in other words, Epson has reduced the transparency of the reporting. In the old days (non-3800) you could subtract the cumulative usage number on the nozzle check before a cleaning from the one after the cleaning and see exactly how much ink was used for the cleaning. This is something Epson has disabled both in the nozzle check data and in the log data.