Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: samuel_js on March 04, 2008, 04:37:50 pm
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Hi,
Are these cameras available as film only? Can I buy one of those only with a film back or is it the Rollei Hy6 the only film option?
Thank's
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hi Samuel,
the Sinar Hy6 can be bought alone, as a film camera. The adapter for the 4560 film magazine is now in production phase and shall be available by end of March.
So yes, the Sinar Hy6 body, all lenses or accessories available can be bought separately from our distributors.
Best regards,
Thierry
Hi,
Are these cameras available as film only? Can I buy one of those only with a film back or is it the Rollei Hy6 the only film option?
Thank's
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179135\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thank's Thierry.
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Sinar and Rolleiflax Hy6 cameras arrived to Russia.
Sinar sell the e75LV version and Rollei Hy6 is sold with a new 6x45 film adapter. I talked to the Rollei dealer (Russia and Ukraine) and he does not have any digital eMotion adapters yet. He was not sure when they will be able to sell the digital adapters with the Rollei version of the camera. Today I got a call from him and he was saying that the adapters would appear in the Rollei catalogue in April. The cameras will be sold only with the film magazine and the new 80mm lens.
Sinar dealer did not confirm this information, he is aware of intentions of Rollei people to get access to the eMotion adapters and market the camera as "digital ready". As of today Rollei was not supplied with the adapters for Digibacks, allegedly the adapters are manufactures by Sinar in Switzerland, not by Rollei.
Yevgeny
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So many names - Sinar, Leaf, Francke & Heidecke, Rollei, Zeiss, Jenoptik, one needs a complete scrabble set to keep up with all the labels found on pieces of this camera It's clear that cooperation in europe
By the way Thierry, your color guy hasn't caught up with me. Could you ask Brumbear to drop me an email ? I have started to talk with the Raw guys ... don't complain later that your needs have not been taken into account.
Edmund
Sinar and Rolleiflax Hy6 cameras arrived to Russia.
Sinar sell the e75LV version and Rollei Hy6 is sold with a new 6x45 film adapter. I talked to the Rollei dealer (Russia and Ukraine) and he does not have any digital eMotion adapters yet. He was not sure when they will be able to sell the digital adapters with the Rollei version of the camera. Today I got a call from him and he was saying that the adapters would appear in the Rollei catalogue in April. The cameras will be sold only with the film magazine and the new 80mm lens.
Sinar dealer did not confirm this information, he is aware of intentions of Rollei people to get access to the eMotion adapters and market the camera as "digital ready". As of today Rollei was not supplied with the adapters for Digibacks, allegedly the adapters are manufactures by Sinar in Switzerland, not by Rollei.
Yevgeny
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179366\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Edmund,
Our "colour guy" is informed, however out of office at the moment. I shall remind him.
Best regards,
Thierry
By the way Thierry, your color guy hasn't caught up with me. Could you ask Brumbear to drop me an email ? I have started to talk with the Raw guys ... don't complain later that your needs have not been taken into account.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179390\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Not so complicated, in fact, and explained here so many times:
- F&H manufacture the Sinar Hy6, the Leaf AFi and the Rolleiflex Hy6, including all the mechanical accessories
- Sinar/Jenoptik manufacture the digital backs, including all the accessories (adapters)
and:
- this Hy6 camera does accept over 45 different lenses, starting with all the Schneider and Zeiss 600x lenses to the new Schneider AFD lenses and Zeiss AFD.
Best regards,
Thierry
So many names - Sinar, Leaf, Francke & Heidecke, Rollei, Zeiss, Jenoptik, one needs a complete scrabble set to keep up with all the labels found on pieces of this camera It's clear that cooperation in europe
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179390\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry,
Which Zeiss are/will be AFD?
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the Flektogon 2.8/35mm.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry,
Which Zeiss are/will be AFD?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179513\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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@ Edmund
I believe our "colour guy" has contacted you in the meantime.
Best regards,
Thierry
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I have use of a Hy6/e75lv today. The 180mm AFD is an internal focus design...were previous iterations of the 180mm 2.8 internal focus (barrel does not extend) as well?
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yes, so it is.
Thierry
I have use of a Hy6/e75lv today. The 180mm AFD is an internal focus design...were previous iterations of the 180mm 2.8 internal focus (barrel does not extend) as well?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179538\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Hi Thierry,
It's been too long and I seem to have forgotten, but could you confirm that the film back will be 645&6x6 AND 120/220 switchable? I recall EPd saying something along these lines too. Or are there multiple (groan) film backs in production?
Please confirm.
Thanks,
-Nik
hi Samuel,
the Sinar Hy6 can be bought alone, as a film camera. The adapter for the 4560 film magazine is now in production phase and shall be available by end of March.
So yes, the Sinar Hy6 body, all lenses or accessories available can be bought separately from our distributors.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179171\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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the Flektogon 2.8/35mm.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179521\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am sure this has been covered before........
What sort of integration will there be between the Hy6 and this 35mm Flektogon,
Will it be similar to the Hasselblad H3DII DAC?
Is there an integrated firmware that will remove barrel distortion and produce rectalinear files?
regards
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Dear Nik,
- The 645 film magazine is the same as the one for the Rolleiflex 6008 (and as such available): it needs an adapter to fit it on the Hy6: this adapter is in production and should be available still in March . This 645 magazine accepts 120 and 220 rollfilms.
- The 6x6 magazine is new and in production currently (no release date given yet): the latest information I have is that it will allow to choose between 4.5x6 and 6x6 formats. It will accepts as well both 120 and 220 rollfilms.
I hope this answers.
Best regards,
Thierry
Hi Thierry,
It's been too long and I seem to have forgotten, but could you confirm that the film back will be 645&6x6 AND 120/220 switchable? I recall EPd saying something along these lines too. Or are there multiple (groan) film backs in production?
Please confirm.
Thanks,
-Nik
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179716\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear Nik,
- The 645 film magazine is the same as the one for the Rolleiflex 6008 (and as such available): it needs an adapter to fit it on the Hy6: this adapter is in production and should be available still in March . .
.
.
.
I hope this answers.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179737\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Can one conclude that with that same adapter that a person or third party can fit a digital back made for the 6008 to the Hy6?
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Can one conclude that with that same adapter that a person or third party can fit a digital back made for the 6008 to the Hy6?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179879\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Keep hoping, Eric!
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EPd,
Thanks for the clarification.
I won't mind what label is engraved on any lens as long as it's an exceptional performer,
but if I need to go that wide and wider, I'll likely get an Alpa with a Digitar.
Regards,
Billy
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Thank you again, EPd.
This is what I suspected.
BJNY,
The original 180mm f2.8 manual focus did have an extending lens barrel. The version with internal focus (AF) is an optically recalculated design.
EPd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180054\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Sorry if I have confused you: my comparison was with the previous AF version of this new 2.8/180mm AFD, which has the same internal focus.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thank you again, EPd.
This is what I suspected.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180056\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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For more detailed information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeiss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeiss)
BJNY,
Please note that this is not a Carl Zeiss lens, but a Zeiss Jena lens. And in fact it is not a true Zeiss Jena lens either (meaning coming from Jenoptik in Jena) but it is being made by F&H in Brunswick, marketed under the Jenoptik owned brand name Flektogon. It is not expected that Carl Zeiss lenses in AF version will be introduced for the Hy6.
EPd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180052\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry, I contacted Niclas as you suggested, thank's. I got the price for the 80mm lens, body and film mag with adapter. 7.500 € excluding taxes Isn't that a little bit insane?
Thank's
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Dear Samuel,
I've been in touch with Niklas and Helga, and they told me that the price given to you was an estimate (adapter for the film magazine not published yet) AND INCLUDING the 90° finder.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thierry, I contacted Niclas as you suggested, thank's. I got the price for the 80mm lens, body and film mag with adapter. 7.500 € excluding taxes Isn't that a little bit insane?
Thank's
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180552\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Hi Thierry, I've got the real price now Thank's
The list you posted with the compatible lens is really helpful. Is there anything like that with compatible digital backs for the Hy6?
Thank's
Dear Samuel,
I've been in touch with Niklas and Helga, and they told me that the price given to you was an estimate (adapter for the film magazine not published yet) AND INCLUDING the 90° finder.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180562\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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hi Samuel,
glad that this issue is solved.
There is no special list with compatible backs for the Sinar Hy6, but I have already published here which backs fit and will work with the Sinar Hy6:
- all Sinarback eMotions: eMotion 22, eMotion 54 LV, eMotion 75 & eMotion 75 LV
- Sinarback eVolution 75 H (33 MPx multishot)
- Sinarback 54 M & MC
- Possible future Sinarbacks
as well as all Leaf backs fitting and working on the Leaf AFi.
Best regards,
Thierry
Hi Thierry, I've got the real price now Thank's
The list you posted with the compatible lens is really helpful. Is there anything like that with compatible digital backs for the Hy6?
Thank's
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180687\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thak's Thierry. A few more questions...
Are the ROLLEI 4560 film mag and polaroid mag kompatible too? With the adapter plate?
HFT lenses? They won't fit?
Thank you so much.
Samuel
hi Samuel,
glad that this issue is solved.
There is no special list with compatible backs for the Sinar Hy6, but I have already published here which backs fit and will work with the Sinar Hy6:
- all Sinarback eMotions: eMotion 22, eMotion 54 LV, eMotion 75 & eMotion 75 LV
- Sinarback eVolution 75 H (33 MPx multishot)
- Sinarback 54 M & MC
- Possible future Sinarbacks
as well as all Leaf backs fitting and working on the Leaf AFi.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180753\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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HFT is the coating on the lens.
If you are referring to the older non-PQ/PQS lenses (for the Rollei models SLX, 6002, 6006), they should fit but the hy6 will only meter accurately with the stop-down button depressed. If you are shooting wide open this won't matter however. Aperture information won't be displayed either with these lenses.
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HFT is the coating on the lens.
If you are referring to the older non-PQ/PQS lenses (for the Rollei models SLX, 6002, 6006), they should fit but the hy6 will only meter accurately with the stop-down button depressed. If you are shooting wide open this won't matter however. Aperture information won't be displayed either with these lenses.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180950\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thank's Carl
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Dear Samuel,
- Yes, the 4560 film magazine for the Rolleiflex 6008 DOES and is the one fitting the Sinar Hy6 with an adapter.
- If the Polaroid magazine you mean is the one for the Rolleiflex 6008, then it won't mechanically fit with the Sinar Hy6.
- I have published a list of all (or almost all) lenses fitting the Sinar Hy6:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=23496 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=23496)
Among these lenses in this list, some are HFT. e.g.:
- Schneider Super-Angulon 3.5/40 HFT-PQ
- Zeiss Distagon 4/50 EL HFT PQ
- Schneider Xenotar 2.8/80 HFT-PQS
- Schneider Apo-Symmar 4/90 HFT PQS
- Zeiss Planar 2/110 HFT PQ
- Zeiss Macro Planar 4/120 HFT PQS
- Zeiss Sonnar 4/150 HFT PQS
- Zeiss Sonnar 5.6/250 HFT PQS
- Schneider Apo-Tele-Xenar 4/300 HFT-PQ
- Schneider Variogon 5.6/140-280 HFT-PQ
- Schneider AF S-Angulon 2.8/50 HFT PQS
- Schneider AF Tele-Xenar 4/150 HFT-PQS
as well as following new Schneider AFD:
- Schneider AFD S-Angulon 2.8/50 HFT PQS
- Schneider AFD Tele-Xenar 4/150 HFT PQS
So the answer to your question is YES: as long as these lenses do have the Rolleiflex 600x mount, they will fit the Sinar Hy6, HFT or not HFT.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thak's Thierry. A few more questions...
Are the ROLLEI 4560 film mag and polaroid mag kompatible too? With the adapter plate?
HFT lenses? They won't fit?
Thank you so much.
Samuel
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180923\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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And in fact it is not a true Zeiss Jena lens either (meaning coming from Jenoptik in Jena) but it is being made by F&H in Brunswick, marketed under the Jenoptik owned brand name Flektogon.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180052\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Who created this lens' optical formula?
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By popular demand I'll give a short recap of the article linked to. In short the article says:
- Hy6 production is now speeding up and real series production is a fact. The backlog in delivery to Sinar and Leaf will be pushed back and this also gives room for volume delivery under the Rolleiflex brandname. Soon series production of the Hy6 will be 150 pieces a month and will be increased to 200+ in the near future.
- According to F&H, demand for the Hy6 is high and therefore they will employ a total of 20 new employees so they can keep running the current two production shifts.
- According to F&H Hy6 specifications are met so tightly that back exchange between manufacturers will be no problem, without the need of in between re-adjustment. This in contrast with the new Hasselblad digital offerings that need back-body calibration.
- The 6x6 (multi-format) film back is still in prototype phase.
- Hy6 is a further development of the 6008 concept and for a vital part financed by Jenoptik. Originally Hy6 was thought as a fully open platform, but was limited in openness as a result of the deal between Jenoptik and Leaf and the taking over of Sinar by Jenoptik.
- Hy6 is for the largest part made in Germany, while electronics are designed in Switserland.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181557\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
EpD,
What I find curious is the volume. Will 200 sales a month sustain this system
I don't know the definition of a successful medium format camera platform, though I read that the Contax 645 was produced at the rate of 2000 per month.
If that number is correct and the fact the Contax was on the market from 1999 to 2005, even on the very conservative side that would put 72,000 Contax' in the market and even at that amount of market penetration the camera line was closed down.
At 200 per month, 2,400 per year how long will it take the Hy6 to have an impact on the market.
I guess I'm not understanding something about the numbers, because I have heard forever that the Contax was closed because they didn't have a digital solution, and even though it seems devleopment costs of the HY6 was split up among various companies, how does F+H make money at 200 bodies a month.
Does F+H make money on Sinar or Leaf backs.
(This is not an attempt to flame the camera, I'm just curious about the logic).
JR
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Goes to show that the professionals at F&H are true amateurs - in the good sense of the word, which means to do something for the love of it, or have a passion for it.
Cheers,
Kumar
James, you finally start to see the miracle that F&H production is. At 200 a month the Hy6 would be more successfull than the Rolleiflex 6000 series (!), which is still sort of legendary. F&H is a very lean company where people work because of the love for the products. (F&H workers even agreed to temporarily lowering their wages when they had to make the survival jump for Hy6 development, two years ago. Until the Jenoptik funding arrived.) F&H does not make any profit on DB sales as they don't sell digital backs. They earn their money making and selling cameras and lenses. And actually when you look at the figures of the investment in the Hy6 development it is even a bigger miracle how they conceived an entire camera system with such little funding. The big CNC-controlled machine you see on one of the pictures was purchased with the money from Jenoptik. Without that machine series production of the Hy6 would be impossible.
The trade-off of this sheer love for camera-making? There's no money left to pay more than one guy in the marketing department. You read that correct: one guy. Fortunately Leaf and Sinar have more people at their respective marketing departments. But still: for the exclusivity and amazing technological modernity of this camera system you pay only the very lowest price imaginable. You don't pay for fancy marketing. (Of course when you buy a DB it's a little bit different.) Had F&H been making Contax cameras I'm pretty sure that that brand would still be alive and kicking too, just like Rolleiflex.
EPd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181582\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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EPd,
Thanks for providing the article and the summary. I find the numbers of production very interesting, on first blush much lower than I would have guessed, but then after thinking about it about what I'd expect for a $20-35k piece of equipment. The really surprising thing is to think that an extra 20 people will only bring production up by 50+ units/month (if I am reading this correctly). I'd have to guess that these people are also making a number of other products besides the Hy6 because at 2 units/person/month no one is making money. And that dashes my hopes of getting a nice deal on the Hy6 especially if demand is still higher than production but mostly because it sounds like there's not a lot of float to give up. Probably also explains why Hasselblad decided to make their camera with less tolerances presumably to save money in manufacturing and have them knocked out in China or wherever.
Also I find it interesting to read that Leaf was responsible for closing the open part of the platform. I had heard that before from a few people but not as clearly stated.
Well I still want one but I want one with a phase back.
Thanks again,
Eric
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Dear James,
your figures (72'000 Contax bodies alone / year in '95/'05) sound really wonderfull, unfortunately they are far from the truth.
The approximate (realistic) figures are following, FOR THE WHOLE MF MARKET:
- 2003: about 20'000 new cameras sold worldwide
- 2004: about 14'000
- 2005: about 10'000
- 2006: about 5 to 6'000
- 2007: about 7'000
The market is expected to be increasing again in 2008, with may be 8 to 10'000 max. new MF cameras sold.
So, these numbers are to be split/shared between the different players. MF camera bodies alone do carry usually a small margin, obviously. Usually, when selling a new MF camera body, there are also accessories and lenses sold: most of the margin comes from this. There is no secret in this.
Best regards,
Thierry
EpD,
What I find curious is the volume. Will 200 sales a month sustain this system
I don't know the definition of a successful medium format camera platform, though I read that the Contax 645 was produced at the rate of 2000 per month.
If that number is correct and the fact the Contax was on the market from 1999 to 2005, even on the very conservative side that would put 72,000 Contax' in the market and even at that amount of market penetration the camera line was closed down.
At 200 per month, 2,400 per year how long will it take the Hy6 to have an impact on the market.
I guess I'm not understanding something about the numbers, because I have heard forever that the Contax was closed because they didn't have a digital solution, and even though it seems devleopment costs of the HY6 was split up among various companies, how does F+H make money at 200 bodies a month.
Does F+H make money on Sinar or Leaf backs.
(This is not an attempt to flame the camera, I'm just curious about the logic).
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181568\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Eric,
If somebody is responsible for the decision to limit the openness to Leaf and Sinar backs, then it is Jenoptik.
Best regards,
Thierry
Also I find it interesting to read that Leaf was responsible for closing the open part of the platform. I had heard that before from a few people but not as clearly stated.
Eric
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181603\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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yes, actually more than double the sales volume.
Thierry
At 200 a month the Hy6 would be more successfull than the Rolleiflex 6000 series (!), which is still sort of legendary.
EPd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181582\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Dear James,
your figures (72'000 Contax bodies alone / year in '95/'05) sound really wonderfull, unfortunately they are far from the truth.
The approximate (realistic) figures are following, FOR THE WHOLE MF MARKET:
- 2003: about 20'000 new cameras sold worldwide
- 2004: about 14'000
- 2005: about 10'000
- 2006: about 5 to 6'000
- 2007: about 7'000
The market is expected to be increasing again in 2008, with may be 8 to 10'000 max. new MF cameras sold.
So, these numbers are to be split/shared between the different players. MF camera bodies alone do carry usually a small margin, obviously. Usually, when selling a new MF camera body, there are also accessories and lenses sold: most of the margin comes from this. There is no secret in this.
Best regards,
Thierry
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=181622\")
The 2,000 a month number is just something I've read along with this at 1,000 contax' sold a month;
[a href=\"http://photo.net/equipment/contax/645]http://photo.net/equipment/contax/645[/url]
Regardless of the numbers sold of an out of production camera, just looking at the 200 a month planned HY6 sales, it seems it will be a long time until this camera will reach real market penetration.
I'm not in the camera making business, but I have to admit my heart goes out to the F+H people as well as my admiration. To take a pay cut to put a product to market is rare in this day and age and I hope the camera succeeds.
Still, I must admit I don't like closed systems. (and I will bet that neither does F+H). Going back to the past, I can't imagine how well a camera would sell if it only accepted one or two film makes and that is close to what we are seeing with the Hy6, even more so with the Hasselblad.
Obviously Leaf, Sinar and Hasselblad are all looking for an edge, but it seems by locking down systems the result will be to marginalize medium format even further.
JR
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To bring things into perspective...
If the assumption that the MFDB market covers 10,000 units a year WW is true, then 2,400 AFi/ Hy6 cameras a year is 1/4 of the market (assuming that the vast majority of them are sold as a digital platform and not as a film one).
2,400 X $50K (camera+back+2-3 lenses + accessories) is $120,000,000 worth of business in one year!!
Yair
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Which is not entirely true because this would only apply when the whole market every year would be new entrants into MF. Some, maybe a pretty large part of them are trade-in & trade-ups.
Sure you can calculate the full value for those but have to subtract the trade-in/trade-up value of the equipment for a more accurate figure.
Still, it will be quite a sizeable market.
I think the market will even start growing faster now that most brands are selling off trade-ins as refurbs. The entry for a much larger group of people has become a lot more interesting.
Let's see how it will be next year, my prediction is that 200pieces/month will have become more (if it is already tight).
Good to see, photographers are getting more options. It does make MF more interesting as a whole.
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Which is not entirely true because this would only apply when the whole market every year would be new entrants into MF. Some, maybe a pretty large part of them are trade-in & trade-ups.
Sure you can calculate the full value for those but have to subtract the trade-in/trade-up value of the equipment for a more accurate figure.
I guess you're right...a trade-in/ trade-up will typically take $7K-$15K off the $50K, so even at $35K we're still looking at $84M overall, not taking into consideration future growth...
Yair
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I guess you're right...a trade-in/ trade-up will typically take $7K-$15K off the $50K, so even at $35K we're still looking at $84M overall, not taking into consideration future growth...
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181775\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
and the 50k or 35k are retail price... so less the mark up how much it makes
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As long as the H3D, which is a completely closed system, has or will take.
Thierry
Regardless of the numbers sold of an out of production camera, just looking at the 200 a month planned HY6 sales, it seems it will be a long time until this camera will reach real market penetration.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181713\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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As long as the H3D, which is a completely closed system, has or will take.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181813\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Oh, and that makes you what? Partially Closed or is that Limited Open-ness? Only to Leaf and Sinar. That makes it more acceptable?
I love how you marketing guys put a spin on things as you see fit.
Sell your cameras, Thierry. But leave these veiled potshots at Hasselblad out of it because I don't see anyone from Hasselblad taking potshots at Sinar nor Leaf.
It is really like the pot calling the kettle black.
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Thank you so much, Sean, for your nice words, much appreciated.
You won't however make me shut my mouth with this kind of aggressive comment. If you see it as a marketing spin, then you are free to believe so.
It has been said more than enough, that the Sinar Hy6 is a closed system: I accept this view point and respect it as such.
So please leave me having and saying MY own opinion on what is closed and what is less closed (or more open): the H3D system does accept one brand of digital backs and is limited to the current sensor sizes, period. I don't critic it negatively, I do point it out.
Instead and in opposition to this, the Hy6 does accept 2 brands of backs AND DOES accept film magazines, 645 as well as 6x6, AND is open in the sense that it has a 6x6 format and can (should I say will?) be used with possible larger sensors.
These are just facts, and there are may be people here on this forum who simply do not know this. As a consequence, each and any time somebody will mention about the "closeness" of the Hy6 system, I am in the right to oppose my arguments.
Eventually, everybody has the freedom to believe what he wants and make his own judgement: he should simply be in possession of all the facts.
Best regards,
Thierry
Oh, and that makes you what? Partially Closed or is that Limited Open-ness? Only to Leaf and Sinar. That makes it more acceptable?
I love how you marketing guys put a spin on things as you see fit.
Sell your cameras, Thierry. But leave these veiled potshots at Hasselblad out of it because I don't see anyone from Hasselblad taking potshots at Sinar nor Leaf.
It is really like the pot calling the kettle black.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181851\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Rollei / Hy6 has a wealth of different lenses that can be used, far more than Hasselblad. That has nothing to do with being open, but it helps (unless you want really wide).
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To bring things into perspective...
If the assumption that the MFDB market covers 10,000 units a year WW is true, then 2,400 AFi/ Hy6 cameras a year is 1/4 of the market (assuming that the vast majority of them are sold as a digital platform and not as a film one).
2,400 X $50K (camera+back+2-3 lenses + accessories) is $120,000,000 worth of business in one year!!
Yair
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=181751\")
Regarding the HY6
EpD you almost had me when you said the F+H workers took a pay cut to insure this camera gets produced. That's commendable.
Theirry, you scare me when you compare it to Hasselblad's business model and Yair, you lost me when you say $50,000 is a body, a back and 2-3 lenses.
The closed part is the most disconcerning to me, because I've been down that road where one brand camera back stopped working for me and I took a $18,000 hit to go to another brand.
At least the next brand I bought clipped right on my exisiting cameras so the loss and the transition was much easier to take.
50k is a tough buy in for a new camera and though I'm sure they'll sell and though if it was open to Phase and Imacon at the current state of professional photography $50,000 camera systems take a long time to recover the investment.
I put a sharp pencil to every investment and right now I have $23,260 invested in 645 cameras, $30,000 invested in digital backs but that includes 13 lenses (from 35mm to 350mm), 4 bodies and two digital backs
From an artistic standpoint that pretty much does everything I need a medium format systems to do.
From a business standpoint the difference is clear.
Still, I (and many others) are obviously not adverse to investing in our busiensses, but for me to start again at 50k is going to require more than what any medium format camera offers at the present.
We need real wi-fi, that is long reached, stable and goes to multiple devices from computers to hand held.
Seriously fast and stable software for shoot and post production, sensors that go to higher iso with less worry about noise and in camera previews and back of the camera lcd's that match the dslrs (I'll even accept matching the 2nd generation dlsrs).
Lens and accessories that are full ranged and on the shelf ready to buy and to put to work. It's a little silly that there are new "annouced" camera systems that involves more of a waiting period than what I can presently find and easily buy for my Contax.
Most importantly we need transparency from the medium format companies with clear upgrade paths that are not time stamped and dated along with software that is released on time, full featured and stable.
Since the start of Hasselblad's perceived lock down of their brand, to the intorduction of the Hy6, there have been about 50 million words written that still makes me dizzy as to what is, is not available and when, where and how much.
I keep reading that the HY6 is only sold to the western world in Leaf or Sinar badges, though as of today on Kurland's website their is a rolliflex hy6 and 80mm lens offered for around 10 grand, though once again in the medium format world the details are murky. Does the Rollei accept anything but Sinar and Leaf, will it accept Sinar and Leaf, where, if, when, it can be serviced?
[a href=\"http://www.kurlandphoto.com/home.php?cat=9]http://www.kurlandphoto.com/home.php?cat=9[/url]
At the cost of investment, these aren't questions any of us take lightly and clear, full featured and stable equipment is not an elective it's mandatory.
JR
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Hi James,
The Hy6 definitely works with a Sinar back as I bought one on Thursday. It was just the body and adapter (which is being exchanged for the rotating one when it comes out at no extra cost).
First thoughts? It's light, no sync cables and an incredibly bright finder (and I'm used to the very bright finder of the 6008!) and a good solid Rollei-like feel. Hopefully next week I'll put it through its paces; I've done a few shots with it but other work has leapt in the way.
As I already own 10 Rollei lenses, buying a hy6 is a no-brainer. The Schneider/Zeiss glass has spoilt me terribly.
By the way, I love the Contax 645 too...
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and Yair, you lost me when you say $50,000 is a body, a back and 2-3 lenses.
An AFi 6 (body, back and WLF) is about $26K (about because I work in EUR)
An AFi 5 (body, back and WLF) is about $29K
An AFi 7 (body, back and WLF) is about $36K
50mm + 80mm + 150mm +180mm AF-D lenses together (4 lenses) are about $17K
So we're looking at $43K-$53K for a camera and 4 lenses and as Dustbak pointed out if it's a trade-in or an upgrade the price will be lower.
There are a couple of US Leaf dealers on this board that can give you a more accurate quote in today's money.
I hope this clarifies
Yair
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And then you have to factor in the cost of maintenance, repairs and a backup system.
Better not sell that 5D.
Edmund
An AFi 6 (body, back and WLF) is about $26K (about because I work in EUR)
An AFi 5 (body, back and WLF) is about $29K
An AFi 7 (body, back and WLF) is about $36K
50mm + 80mm + 150mm +180mm AF-D lenses together (4 lenses) are about $17K
So we're looking at $43K-$53K for a camera and 4 lenses and as Dustbak pointed out if it's a trade-in or an upgrade the price will be lower.
There are a couple of US Leaf dealers on this board that can give you a more accurate quote in today's money.
I hope this clarifies
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181919\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thank you, Thierry. In one fell swoop, you have shown me the quality of the company that you represent. Very well-said for a marketing man.
There is a dictum in the business world: under-promise and over-deliver.
I see that Sinar is doing it exactly arse-backwards. Bravo!
Marketing by association with science-fiction is a new technique.
I will not be able to help that feeling of schadenfreude when the eventuality happens.
P.S. The fact is the Hasselblad H3D can only be used with Hasselblad's own digital backs. No argument with that. The fact is the Hy6/Afi can only be used with Sinar's and Leaf's own digital backs. No argument with that either. It is what you do with the facts which makes it interesting; you seem happy to declare Hasselblad's closed while yours is 'limited open-ness'. One is a disadvantage whereas the other is made to sound like a virtue including association with non-existent sensors and a declining film format. And it would be fine by me too except that Hasselblad is obviously your competitor and Marketing 101 states that you never run down a competitor's products just to shill your own. It smacks of desperation.
Come tell me, Thierry, mon ami, doesn't that sound like bollocks to you?
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An AFi 6 (body, back and WLF) is about $26K (about because I work in EUR)
An AFi 5 (body, back and WLF) is about $29K
An AFi 7 (body, back and WLF) is about $36K
50mm + 80mm + 150mm +180mm AF-D lenses together (4 lenses) are about $17K
So we're looking at $43K-$53K for a camera and 4 lenses and as Dustbak pointed out if it's a trade-in or an upgrade the price will be lower.
There are a couple of US Leaf dealers on this board that can give you a more accurate quote in today's money.
I hope this clarifies
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181919\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yair,
We come at this from different perspectives.
Your the seller and it's appropriate you want to sell your product at it's most profitable margins.
I understand that process.
Maybe, I'm more aware about camera costs than usual because we recently updated our insurance and I realized I have over $126,000 invested in digital cameras, lenses and accessories, (not including computers, drives, video cameras, grip, lighting etc.).
Now that covers 4 systems, Phase/contax, Nikon, Canon and Leica though never in my wildest dreams did I ever think I would own over $100,000 in still cameras.
Now what I own I use, what I bought I bought at the lowest cost possible and what I have works for me and my client base, but I have to wonder where this is going and if/when it will stop or level off.
I'm not one that ever looks back to the good old days, because it's not really relevant and honestly I doubt it if it was that good in the good old days, but I do have to wonder how with tightening rates, higher production costs photographers are going to be able to continually upgrade their cameras at the clip of 20 to 50 thousand dollars every few years. Even just buying the new dslrs can get to 20 grand pretty quickly.
I think the concept of the hy6 is great, waist level finder, large viewing, digital interface.
The flip side is I think the cost even at $40,000 with a back doesn't take into account that nearly everyone that can afford a $40,000 camera does serious enough work where they must have a backup and Ronald may be joking about keeping that 5d ready, but let's be realistic that you have to have something for emergencies, that is why I own two backs, 4 bodies etc. etc.
I do think that medium format has to address the rise in costs of these systems and better still, address that they essentially force their client base into a dslr if only for backup or speed.
Personally, I don't think it's healthy for our industry if it gets to the point that photographers cannot own their own equipment and must daily rent everything. It limits testing, experimentation and makes the learning curve too sporatic.
There is something to be said about going into your own room with your own equipment, not thinking about costs, overtime or rentals and just producing a photograph for the sake of the photograph.
I also don't think it's healthy for the medium format industry if they price their products so high that the only buyers are rental houses or rich eye surgeons.
JR
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James,
Re. the horrid MF prices, you seem to be forgetting that the MF guys eg. Hasselblad's CEO actually say that the exclusionary pricing, and the distinctive appearnce is one of the *features* of their product.
I've actually talked to photographers who had to buy into MF because of the cachet of the product, not the image quality.
Edmund
Yair,
We come at this from different perspectives.
I also don't think it's healthy for the medium format industry if they price their products so high that the only buyers are rental houses or rich eye surgeons.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181939\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thank you, Thierry. In one fell swoop, you have shown me the quality of the company that you represent. Very well-said for a marketing man.
There is a dictum in the business world: under-promise and over-deliver.
I see that Sinar is doing it exactly arse-backwards. Bravo!
Marketing by association with science-fiction is a new technique.
I will not be able to help that feeling of schadenfreude when the eventuality happens.
P.S. The fact is the Hasselblad H3D can only be used with Hasselblad's own digital backs. No argument with that. The fact is the Hy6/Afi can only be used with Sinar's and Leaf's own digital backs. No argument with that either. It is what you do with the facts which makes it interesting; you seem happy to declare Hasselblad's closed while yours is 'limited open-ness'. One is a disadvantage whereas the other is made to sound like a virtue including association with non-existent sensors and a declining film format. And it would be fine by me too except that Hasselblad is obviously your competitor and Marketing 101 states that you never run down a competitor's products just to shill your own. It smacks of desperation.
Come tell me, Thierry, mon ami, doesn't that sound like bollocks to you?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181934\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hey Sean,
You seem a might touchy on this subject ! I suppose you use Hasselblad ? Your aggression and choice language only diminishes your argument. When you lose your temper the ability to put forward a rational point of view only flies out the window.
Pete
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James,
Re. the horrid MF prices, you seem to be forgetting that the MF guys eg. Hasselblad's CEO actually say that the exclusionary pricing, and the distinctive appearnce is one of the *features* of their product.
I've actually talked to photographers who had to buy into MF because of the cachet of the product, not the image quality.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181940\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't think the medium format prices are horrid, in fact I know I make money from my investment.
I also should add I don't think the HY6 is a bad idea and though I've never used one, it seems like a well thought out concept for the most part.
Still, I don't think that any form of controlled systems helps any of us. When you look at the HY6 from the Rollei price of 10 grand for a body and a lens isn't that bad considering it's a new system and with some careful shopping you could add lenses as you go.
The stopping point is not the camera it's the limitations of what backs are "allowed" on the camera, who would service it, will firmware become locked, etc. etc.
Obviously every manufacturer is looking for an edge and Leaf, Sinar and Hasselblad believe they have that with controlling the camera as part of the buy in to the back, or vice versa. The only way I see this as a positive is if these combinations came to market heavily discounted, but at current prices that doesn't seem to be the case.
Personally I think all of this is just a knee jerk reaction to what Hasselblad did with their H series.
Only time will tell if they are all correc t.
JR
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Sean,
would you please give me a break? It is tiring, at the very least.
I think it is clear that everybody is allowed to express his opinion and make his own judgement about a product. But again, for me, judgements can be done only with all the facts on the table. That's all I am doing, and I would like you to respect it. When a post puts Sinar and another brand like Hasselblad at the same level of closeness or openness, it is my absolute right (and duty) to point to the differences. Again, all 30'000 + members here may not have your level of knowledge about the technical aspect of a new product and its features and possibilities.
Internet, forums and anonymity do not allow any of your non-sense, disrespectful (and disrespectable), offensive and insulting comments, attacks, lies and even smears directed to me and the company I represent.
And may you learn one thing: I am a free person. Nobody will ever stop me saying what I have to say, like it or not. However, I believe having shown so far and always respect to anyone here on this forum, included yourself. IMO, respect of others tells a lot about a person and his behavior in life general. In my country one is used to say: the smaller the dog, the louder his barking.
I expect a (much) higher level of tolerance and respect for others' way of seeing things:
- over-promise: I did promise nothing but what the Hy6 can deliver and is.
- under-deliver: I will let others judge of what we have reached when it will be time to judge.
- science-fiction: pure interpretation of my writing and absolute non-sense. Don't use the sentence "you seem happy to declare Hasselblad's closeness" when you are not sure. You are creating the science-fiction out of my words yourself
- what I do with the facts? NOTHING: by definition facts are facts, as such exist and are true, and consequently do not need further interpretation.
and most importantly:
- run-down "my" competitor: I have to ask you to point me to any of my comments or writing in which I have done so. Failing what I am firmly asking you to take back this sentence from your post.
- I have to be honest to say that I don't understand your word "bollock", otherwise I would have answered your last questions as well.
I don't know what "mon ami" means in your country, but in mine it comes with a deep sense of respect: please refrain from calling me that way.
Best regards,
Thierry
Thank you, Thierry. In one fell swoop, you have shown me the quality of the company that you represent. Very well-said for a marketing man.
There is a dictum in the business world: under-promise and over-deliver.
I see that Sinar is doing it exactly arse-backwards. Bravo!
Marketing by association with science-fiction is a new technique.
I will not be able to help that feeling of schadenfreude when the eventuality happens.
P.S. The fact is the Hasselblad H3D can only be used with Hasselblad's own digital backs. No argument with that. The fact is the Hy6/Afi can only be used with Sinar's and Leaf's own digital backs. No argument with that either. It is what you do with the facts which makes it interesting; you seem happy to declare Hasselblad's closed while yours is 'limited open-ness'. One is a disadvantage whereas the other is made to sound like a virtue including association with non-existent sensors and a declining film format. And it would be fine by me too except that Hasselblad is obviously your competitor and Marketing 101 states that you never run down a competitor's products just to shill your own. It smacks of desperation.
Come tell me, Thierry, mon ami, doesn't that sound like bollocks to you?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181934\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Open Closed - neither of you are going to win the argument because the answer isnt black and white
This is my take.
IMO Sinar is 'more open' than Hblad but not open.
Firstly Hblad historically caught a lot of people out
They had a quote on thier website blobbing on about running a system that lasted for years 'protecton ones investment' basically promoting the CF adapter for the lenses
At that point they (BLad) didnt make Dbacks*, neither did mamiya (and of course phase sinar imacon eyelike and leaf didnt make 645 bodies aprt from sinars baffling M system)
Hblad were welcoming 3rd party back owners to 'thier faimly' with open arms
The culture was for one to buy a body and back from different companies - it was the only option
There were lots of users like me who used (and still do) third party back on Hassy
All of a sudden we found ourselves UNEXPECTEDLY locked out of the new 28 lens and any future lenses or body upgrades -
We are now the ugly kid brothers who are no longer part of the BLad family even thought we poured $000s into their system
So we now only have 'half a system' and are not sure about future support
(at least as a sinar back owner I can move to the sinar body, get full support without buying a new back unlike leaf)
It was Blad the moving of the goalposts that really hurt
Sinar have not done that.
But thats history now.
NOW we have various systems that have various levels of openness - none completely open (in the philosophical manner that say Linux is)
Everyone should just be aware of what they are buying into..
Sinar Dbacks work on
Hy6, Hassy H1, Mamiya645 AFD ProTL, Contax, and Hassy V and maybe more 645 bodies
Sinar view cameras accept most Dbacks
The Sinar 645 body accepts sinar and leaf backs
That (HY6) body also accepts a whole line of legacy lenses (as does the H)
Hassy DBacks
Work on Hassy cameras and maybe a view camera or two
Hassy bodies partially accept some other backs
Neither system is fully open but IMO sinar is more open and has not 'stitched up' a large part of its user base unike both Blad and Leaf
Both brands are purposely excluding Phase for financial rather than technical reasons - which doesnt sit too well with many users of DBacks and IMO will prove to be bad business too
To summarize
Brands that have let down thier userbase..
Hblad
Leaf
Brands that lock people out for financial reasons
Hblad
Sinar
Leaf Cameras
Brands whose cameras wont take future 66 backs
Mamiya
Hblad
So the winner IMO is currently mamiya - shame thier current camera IMO is crap- I look forward to thier new offering with interest if it has multipoint AF and leaf lenses and a legacy lens catlogue back to the proTL it will be a winning system that coud threaten ALL of the companies that have decided it is a good idea to lock out phase
All the systems currently have a hole..
HY6 - no wide
HBLad - no shift
Mamiya - no leaf shutter flash synchs exept on the 67model
So the mamiya hole can be worked around
I vote sinar back, mamiya camera system if you want open
SMM
*blad did sell a rebadged imacon back but it was tethered only - so not on many shooters lists
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Nice summary, Sam, which I can mostly understand and accept (we will always be arguing about the "baffling Sinar m"!).
Some little additions & one correction:
Sinar Dbacks work on
Hy6, Hassy H1, Mamiya645 AFD ProTL, Contax, and Hassy V and maybe more 645 bodies ....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182044\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
.... and on the H2, the Mamiya RZ, the Rollei 6008 and the Fuji GX 680 (eVolution 75H)
Sinar view cameras accept most Dbacks
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182044\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
all, to my knowledge.
The Sinar 645 body accepts sinar and leaf backs
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182044\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, the Sinar m does not accept Leaf backs, there is no adapter plate for it.
Best regards,
Thierry
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All the systems currently have a hole..
HY6 - no wide
HBLad - no shift
Mamiya - no leaf shutter flash synchs exept on the 67model
So the mamiya hole can be worked around
Not really. If you use the Mamiya 67 then 50mm is your widest option. Also I wasn't aware that there was a TS lens for the Mamiya 645? Finally saying the Hy6 has 'no wide' is a bit misleading. 40mm is certainly a general purpose wide angle. Better to say 'not as wide'.
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Sorry, missed this one question.
Absolutely no, this adapter is designed to fit exactly the shape of the 645 film magazine: it would not fit mechanically.
Best regards,
Thierry
Can one conclude that with that same adapter that a person or third party can fit a digital back made for the 6008 to the Hy6?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179879\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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We have gone over this all before.
IMO a 40 is not that wide
My example is if one is trying to do a big wedding group shot you may not be able to fit in the whole group while uncle bob the camera fiend next door with his D80 and 18-200 will be able to
embarrasing for a pro system IMO
personally I rarely use my 35 much prefering my 50 - the 35 is a 'bit vulgar' exept in emergencies
I would be happy with a 40 but as an occasional interior guy I know my clients would like a 28 FOV - and we dont have time/money for ALPA
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I meant the HY6 takes the leaf AFI back not the M takes a leaf back - I guess ??
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AFAIK the Manual ProTL manual 55 rise works with the 645AFD
check this thread (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=22362)
my 24 fish certainly did (stop down MF only of course)
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Mamiya doesnt offer super wide and decent synch speed at the same time indeed
It is my eperience that I tend to need super wide (28) when shooting buildings - the 645afd can do that and fast synch when shooting portraits the M67 can do that - a good compromise
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Hassy DBacks
Work on Hassy cameras and maybe a view camera or two
The digital magazine from the H3DII will work on any view camera that can accept H mounts, which is many more than one or two. It will, however, require the 100GB Imagebank for power (and optional storage). The Hasselblad CF Digital Backs will go on any view camera that can accept any digital back, and nearly every medium format camera available (H1/H2, V Series, Mamiya AFD/RZ/RB, Fuji 680, Contax 645AF, Bronica & Mamiya Pro (with KG Adapter).
Hassy bodies partially accept some other backs
Neither system is fully open but IMO sinar is more open and has not 'stitched up' a large part of its user base unike both Blad and Leaf
Both brands are purposely excluding Phase for financial rather than technical reasons - which doesnt sit too well with many users of DBacks and IMO will prove to be bad business too
Phase One has also excluded their competitors for financial reasons by not providing C1 compatibility years ago when C1 was the preferred choice for high-end raw converters.
To summarize
Brands that lock people out for financial reasons
Hblad
Sinar
Leaf Cameras
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182044\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Also, Phase One - see above...
Sam, overall, not a summary that I disagree with, just had to make a couple of additions...
It is unfortunate that Hasselblad felt compelled to improve their product and fortify their position by restricting some technology from their existing users. It's unfortunate that Leaf does not have a low-cost option for their existing users to migrate to an AFi. It is unfortunate that Phase One didn't feel compelled to give photographers freedom of choice of digital back hardware to work with their C1 software.
While I can see the benefit to new users in all of these cases - with H3DII integrated technological advances, with future enhanced fucntionality with the AFi, with more resources to focus on C1 advances for Phase One users, it is unfortunate that existing users (Hasselblad and Leaf) get left out in the chill, and that there is not more cooperation in the industry. But unfortunately, that is the hand we have been dealt. It's up to you whether you like the cards (choices) or not.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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It's up to you whether you like the cards (choices) or not.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182133\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree.
I think the biggest thing is the shift in the industry over the last 3/4 years to back and camera makers often being the same company or at least brand
no-one moans that canon lenses dont fit on nikon, there were moaners when canon binned the FD mount or whatever it was called
a decade on it was the right thing for canon and thier users
The annoying thing now I dont see a system that doesnt have a 'hole'
The change was also not handled well PR wise
Cuturally I have considered my back to be very expensive electronic film and want to use it like velvia - on/in whatever device I want
I can see that the 'film' talking to the camera is the future which probaby has to mean integration
(unless standards were developed like my eizo monitor talkin to my mac or my PC)
in fact the lack of backchat from 'the electronic film' is really annoying on MFDBs compared say to the live view on the nikon D3 which is awesome
S
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Regarding the HY6
Theirry, you scare me when you compare it to Hasselblad's business model ....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181905\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I just wanted to refer to the same chance for market penetration of the Hy6 system in comparison with any other brand, not comparing the business models of the 2 companies: in this respect, the Hy6 does not have less chances, especially when put in relation with the potential worldwide sales figures we have in the MF market.
Sorry for having scared you!
Best regards,
Thierry
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Speaking of market penetration, is anybody here actually using a Leaf/Sinar yet for actual work ?
Edmund
I just wanted to refer to the same chance for market penetration of the Hy6 system in comparison with any other brand, not comparing the business models of the 2 companies: in this respect, the Hy6 does not have less chances, especially when put in relation with the potential worldwide sales figures we have in the MF market.
Sorry for having scared you!
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182287\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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hi Edmund,
Yes, there are. Currently one is shooting with the Hy6-e75 in Bangkok, as we speak.
I will let the decision to them, if they want to post and feedback, rather than giving any names without permission.
Best regards,
Thierry
Speaking of market penetration, is anybody here actually using a Leaf/Sinar yet for actual work ?
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182296\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Deleted
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But unfortunately, that is the hand we have been dealt. It's up to you whether you like the cards (choices) or not.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182133\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Steve, don't take offense to my editing of your quote but this pretty much sums it up.
It's funny, these medium format discussions have been going on since the RG days.
It was obvious early on that Hasselblad and Imacon had plans that would exclude competitor's digital backs.
It was also obvious that Phase, Leaf and Sinar would have to find some type of platform to put their backs on because as you have said time and again, the money is in the back, not the camera and that is why Contax is out of business. (Though how F+H can stay in business only selling cameras seems to counter this statement).
You sell Leaf, Sinar and Hasselblad and might see some advantage in this strategy though I doubt seriously if many photographers are jumping up and down with joy for any of these developements, especially the photographers that invested in an earlier H system (which also includes CF39 users).
Now in my view the main thing that all of these companies should address is that as of today, every new camera back combo that is offered does little for improving the quality, ease, or status of my work.
No client is asking me for a new camera because once again, all of these new offerings are just slight variations of a past theme and most come with a higher price tag.
I don't have a client asking for 50mega pixel captures, or cares if the sensor is square or finds it important I look down a waist level finder. I've never had a client say, hey, isn't that the new HY6, AFi7 or H3II?
I do know that clients would love to see real breaktrhoughs like instant wifi to multiple devices, easy backup of files, higher iso that allows for more continuous light souces, faster lenses, wider lenses, better in camera processing, instant web galleries, easier software, really better camera lcd's and a very hard look at the final cost.
JR
P.S. I use what I use because first and foremost it's stable and proven. Out of production contax's don't register with a client, becuase none of them know if Contax is out of production.
Whether 3.78's inteface is white or dark grey doesn't change a thing as long as the software doesn't crash and the colors on the computer are good enough to continue, the files can be quickly edited and corrected and jpegs can be processed on the fly.
The price I pay for the cameras and backs doesn't concern the client, though the cost to them does. If I can do two bodies and camera systems for the price of one that gives me a better profit margin, or better still allows me to hold down the final costs then that is a real "upgrade" that a client will notice.
Do you think a client knows that the sensors I use us has 1.24 crop ratio vs. a 1.14, heck I can't even tell anymore.
And for the record, I've recently shot for phase in Paris for a new campaign and no it wasn't a big for profit situation for my studio. (Actually the opposite). Regardless, It was fun, creatively rewarding and I enjoyed doing it but make no mistake in what my intentions are because if the Phase stopped working for me tomorrow, software, or hardware I would switch systems in a heartbeat.
Anything less would be penny wise and pound foolish.
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As usual, James "gets it", boiling it down to what really matters.
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Speaking of market penetration, is anybody here actually using a Leaf/Sinar yet for actual work ?
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182296\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm using a Sinar Hy6/e54LV. I like it a lot!
I'll be working in Tokyo with it for three weeks starting next week. It should pay for itself very quickly.
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Deleted
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...the money is in the back, not the camera and that is why Contax is out of business. (Though how F+H can stay in business only selling cameras seems to counter this statement).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182319\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No facts actually point to the Contax 645's demise having anything to do with its specific profitability. In 2005, Kyocera Corporation's top-level management changed, and having Kyocera Optical drop its camera lines was one of the attendant strategic changes (the new-broom syndrome). The 645 simply lacked a boardroom proponent who could--let alone, would--successfully argue that it was distinct and separate from the consumer camera business line, at which line the axe was really aimed.
That said, F+H was on the verge of folding, until Jenoptik came along with the Hy6 proposal. Now F+H has a big, captive customer, for a couple of years at least.
-H.
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Steve, don't take offense to my editing of your quote but this pretty much sums it up.
It's funny, these medium format discussions have been going on since the RG days.
It was obvious early on that Hasselblad and Imacon had plans that would exclude competitor's digital backs.
It was also obvious that Phase, Leaf and Sinar would have to find some type of platform to put their backs on because as you have said time and again, the money is in the back, not the camera and that is why Contax is out of business. (Though how F+H can stay in business only selling cameras seems to counter this statement).
You sell Leaf, Sinar and Hasselblad and might see some advantage in this strategy though I doubt seriously if many photographers are jumping up and down with joy for any of these developements, especially the photographers that invested in an earlier H system (which also includes CF39 users).
Now in my view the main thing that all of these companies should address is that as of today, every new camera back combo that is offered does little for improving the quality, ease, or status of my work.
No client is asking me for a new camera because once again, all of these new offerings are just slight variations of a past theme and most come with a higher price tag.
I don't have a client asking for 50mega pixel captures, or cares if the sensor is square or finds it important I look down a waist level finder. I've never had a client say, hey, isn't that the new HY6, AFi7 or H3II?
I do know that clients would love to see real breaktrhoughs like instant wifi to multiple devices, easy backup of files, higher iso that allows for more continuous light souces, faster lenses, wider lenses, better in camera processing, instant web galleries, easier software, really better camera lcd's and a very hard look at the final cost.
JR
P.S. I use what I use because first and foremost it's stable and proven. Out of production contax's don't register with a client, becuase none of them know if Contax is out of production.
Whether 3.78's inteface is white or dark grey doesn't change a thing as long as the software doesn't crash and the colors on the computer are good enough to continue, the files can be quickly edited and corrected and jpegs can be processed on the fly.
The price I pay for the cameras and backs doesn't concern the client, though the cost to them does. If I can do two bodies and camera systems for the price of one that gives me a better profit margin, or better still allows me to hold down the final costs then that is a real "upgrade" that a client will notice.
Do you think a client knows that the sensors I use us has 1.24 crop ratio vs. a 1.14, heck I can't even tell anymore.
And for the record, I've recently shot for phase in Paris for a new campaign and no it wasn't a big for profit situation for my studio. (Actually the opposite). Regardless, It was fun, creatively rewarding and I enjoyed doing it but make no mistake in what my intentions are because if the Phase stopped working for me tomorrow, software, or hardware I would switch systems in a heartbeat.
Anything less would be penny wise and pound foolish.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182319\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
James, if tighter camera/back integration helps to act as a facilitator to advance the product, then I am all for it. Just for the record, let me state that while I am a proponent of this tighter integration, I am also a proponent of choice, flexibility and options. Hasselblad, Leaf, and Sinar continue to sell and develop digital backs that can gon on nearly every medium/large format camera system. And I still enthusiastically sell and support these excellent systems, like the Leaf Aptus, Hasselblad CF, and Sinar e75 series digital backs.
But with the demise of most medium format film-based camera systems, and the advantages of camera/digital integration - which has been recognized by nearly every major player in the industry, including Nikon, Canon, Hasselblad, Leaf, Sinar, Sony, Olympus, etc, etc, etc - the future does not hold the promise of the flexibility and versatility of the past in the ways with which have been valued. That is unfortunate, and I am not advocating less choice, nor am I celebrating it.
I do celebrate tighter camera/digital integration. Regardless of what happens with independent digital backs, I still am in the position of wanting to provide the most capable possible product for my customers. While you may not see a compelling value proposition with the current medium format digital camera platforms for your work, others do. And it is my uneducated guess that tighter camera/digital integration will ultimately enable some of the advances that you feel will benefit your work at a faster pace than non-integrated systems. More advanced AWB will come from the Leaf/AFi - Sinar/Hy6 platform very soon, and this is a result of camera/digital integration. Improved ISO performance is limited by the CCD sensors, but I've already seen dramatic improvement from H3DII products at 400 and 800 ISO which, in my opinon, look better than Canon or Nikon files at those same ISO's. We may be at the edge of what the current sensors can do. But for future sensors which are more sensitive, the camera/digital integration can certainly play an advanced role in sensor temperature, which is a key factor in ISO performance.
So, before camera/integration gets shat on as the unholy grail - eh, who needs automatic lens corrections or deadly accurate focus - bear in mind more advances are coming and will come in more flavors, faster and more effectively with camera/digital integration. In the meantime, we still have the solid, workmanlike digital backs, which offer exactly what many photographers need, as well as real flexibility in terms of camera platforms.
As I said, the choice is yours.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Steve, I agree but integration doesn't have to mean closed integration. That's the reason we have standards such as PAL or NTSC.
IMO, increased integration is good, proprietary interfaces are bad.
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Steve, I agree but integration doesn't have to mean closed integration. That's the reason we have standards such as PAL or NTSC.
IMO, increased integration is good, proprietary interfaces are bad.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182389\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Don't necessarily disagree, but then this would also include Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Sony, etc, etc. What standard does Canon or Nikon adhere to?
The major sin that Hasselblad has committed is restricting the 28mm lens. Other than that, I see nothing significantly different from what they have done compared to any of the above mentioned.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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As a recent buyer of a digital back, I have got to see that my "back is always ok, unfortunately the software cannot always fix it". The same syndrome may hit the Hassy and Sinar buyers - the bodies can correct for lens-body distance disparities in AF, but this may result in greater out-of-factory tolerances - and then the guys and gals using MF will suddenly end up with a bunch of out of focus images.
I find it interesting that my trashy Mamiya/Phase combo focuses more accurately than any of the Canon's I owned previousy.
Edmund
So, before camera/integration gets shat on as the unholy grail - eh, who needs automatic lens corrections or deadly accurate focus - bear in mind more advances are coming and will come in more flavors, faster and more effectively with camera/digital integration. In the meantime, we still have the solid, workmanlike digital backs, which offer exactly what many photographers need, as well as real flexibility in terms of camera platforms.
As I said, the choice is yours.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182385\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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As a recent buyer of a digital back, I have got to see that my "back is always ok, unfortunately the software cannot always fix it". The same syndrome may hit the Hassy and Sinar buyers - the bodies can correct for lens-body distance disparities in AF, but this may result in greater out-of-factory tolerances - and then the guys and gals using MF will suddenly end up with a bunch of out of focus images.
I find it interesting that my trashy Mamiya/Phase combo focuses more accurately than any of the Canon's I owned previousy.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182396\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Edmund, this has not been the case. It's all about QC, and assembly lines would not "let up" just because they understand there is a focus adjustment made. The Ultra Focus II adjustment does not correct for sensor mis-alignment. If anything, this technology provides even more likelihood of accurate focus regardless, because the placement of the sensor has to be known and mapped not just to a focus plane, but also to a camera body. If QC standards are maintained, there is no issue here.
Steve Hendrix
ww.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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James, if tighter camera/back integration helps to act as a facilitator to advance the product, then I am all for it. Just for the record, let me state that while I am a proponent of this tighter integration, I am also a proponent of choice, flexibility and options. Hasselblad, Leaf, and Sinar continue to sell and develop digital backs that can gon on nearly every medium/large format camera system. And I still enthusiastically sell and support these excellent systems, like the Leaf Aptus, Hasselblad CF, and Sinar e75 series digital backs.
But with the demise of most medium format film-based camera systems, and the advantages of camera/digital integration - which has been recognized by nearly every major player in the industry, including Nikon, Canon, Hasselblad, Leaf, Sinar, Sony, Olympus, etc, etc, etc - the future does not hold the promise of the flexibility and versatility of the past in the ways with which have been valued. That is unfortunate, and I am not advocating less choice, nor am I celebrating it.
I do celebrate tighter camera/digital integration. Regardless of what happens with independent digital backs, I still am in the position of wanting to provide the most capable possible product for my customers. While you may not see a compelling value proposition with the current medium format digital camera platforms for your work, others do. And it is my uneducated guess that tighter camera/digital integration will ultimately enable some of the advances that you feel will benefit your work at a faster pace than non-integrated systems. More advanced AWB will come from the Leaf/AFi - Sinar/Hy6 platform very soon, and this is a result of camera/digital integration. Improved ISO performance is limited by the CCD sensors, but I've already seen dramatic improvement from H3DII products at 400 and 800 ISO which, in my opinon, look better than Canon or Nikon files at those same ISO's. We may be at the edge of what the current sensors can do. But for future sensors which are more sensitive, the camera/digital integration can certainly play an advanced role in sensor temperature, which is a key factor in ISO performance.
So, before camera/integration gets shat on as the unholy grail - eh, who needs automatic lens corrections or deadly accurate focus - bear in mind more advances are coming and will come in more flavors, faster and more effectively with camera/digital integration. In the meantime, we still have the solid, workmanlike digital backs, which offer exactly what many photographers need, as well as real flexibility in terms of camera platforms.
As I said, the choice is yours.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182385\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Some of this is good, some of it slightly improves the final product (image) depending on what/how you shoot, but at the end of the day, these are still baby steps.
In regards to iso performance I've tested this side by side with Leaf, Phase, Canons, Nikons and Leicas and all of the digital cameras, are very scene specific.
It's not just higher iso, it's also lens speed that allows faster shutters. I just came off a fashion gig on location where running 4 1k hmi's just kept me on the threshold of what was useable. 800 on the p-30+ was clean, but even at 800 I was running on the bare minimum of focus and shutter where in the dslrs especially the Canons 400 iso would easily have pulled focus and held sharpness just because it seems Canon is less optimistic about iso than the digital backs and their lenses are faster.
Still I'm not trying to debate medium format vs. dslrs, because I use both and both have a place.
The point I'm making is in an ever tightening business environment 50k camera systems are a bit hard to justify unless the benefits are huge. For some this "tighter integration" (I'm not really sure what that means) may be worth it, but as of today I don't look at one of my files and say I wish I had auto parallax correction or a different white balance because so far my images are to the color and tone I expect and correcting parallax is not the prime motive of someone that shoots people.
Let's be realistic. Most photographers like cameras and most of us like new equipment. It's just fun to work with something new and modern and the moment I set my Contax down next to anything that is obviously superior to me and my clients then I'll make the investment, even the 50k investment.
My brand loyalty starts and stops with MY final product, not what make of camera, software, or lighting I used.
What I do find interesting from a camera standpoint is there are things from past systems that the new cameras have not improved on. Mamiya's 645 manual cameras had very fast lenses, same with Contax, the RZ had a fully rotating back that magically blacked out the crop area in the viewfinder and the lens lines for all of these systems was huge.
The fact that some of the latest medium format cameras can't match something that was made 15 years ago tells me it's not the engineering, it's the costs.
I am still surprised that as of today, no medium format camera produces decent in camera jpegs that have an adjustable color space. My original 1ds produced beautiful srgb jpegs parallel to the raws and those went on the web in light speed.
5 years later my post production has gone from a quick edit to a series of edits, color correction and batch processing. Why medium format has not seized upon faster in camera processing is beyond me.
Also if I brought up the the delays, workarounds, beta introductions and still long promised and waiting features of many of the medium format makers software I'm sure I would be accused of brand bashing or favoritism.
Say what you want about proprietary systems and their benefit, but I think most of us know that limiting one camera to one back is more of a corporate business decision than a technical or artistic advantage.
Once again I cannot stress how important cost is in these decisions. I'm fortunate that my business is growing, but I also know that every project sees some tightening of the bottom line, or a increase in amount of images and services per day without a compensating price increase, so for me to double, triple my camera investment takes more than "tighter integration".
JR
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Don't necessarily disagree, but then this would also include Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Sony, etc, etc. What standard does Canon or Nikon adhere to?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182395\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well some of them have adopted the Four Thirds standard. They use standard flash shoes and tripod mounts. Perhaps use generic batteries. Use standard file types (TIFF, JPEG, DNG). There are already many standards in most cameras, but it could be better.
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Well some of them have adopted the Four Thirds standard. They use standard flash shoes and tripod mounts. Perhaps use generic batteries. Use standard file types (TIFF, JPEG, DNG). There are already many standards in most cameras, but it could be better.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182434\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'd love to see battery standardization. Although, ultimately, standardization is a double-edged sword, while it provides ease of use, legacy compatibility, it also hinders technical advancement.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Digital automatic lens corrections seem like a great reason to have an integrated package, but can't all that be done without too much trouble with software? Okay to illustrate what I mean - maybe you take your kit down to your dealer where he has a small station set up with a chart on the wall and some track lights to evenly light it. You shoot the chart with all your different lenses and their set-up cranks out the needed correction parameters for your very own lenses and camera/back and puts it into a file which you load into your C1 or CaptureShop, Flexcolor or whatever it its. What's the big deal? Why get locked in just for that?