Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: SeanBK on March 04, 2008, 08:55:08 am
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Need a new LCD monitor-PC compatible for sure. Cannot decide between LaCie, Eizo or something else like NEC...
Any & all suggestions will be appreciated. Budget of +/- $2500, I think could be adequate. Shooting for magazine - CMYK & their print-shop's profile.
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I have been working with Eizo's CG Line since the CG21, after the 210 now the 211 is the monitor to go. It is the best I know, period.
We just got an CG241W for the studio, mainly for editing in Lightroom, but it has awful colors, much to colorful, especially the greens and reds, almost as bad as my old apple cd 23", so I wouldn't recommend that one for serious work, although a lot of shooters would be happy with it.
A friend has the old LaCie 21", it is quite nice but doesn't come close to the CG211, therfore it's a bit cheaper. I don't know about the new LaCie Screens...
So if money is not the problem, I would always recommend the CG211.
cheers,
martin
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I have been working with Eizo's CG Line since the CG21, after the 210 now the 211 is the monitor to go. It is the best I know, period.
We just got an CG241W for the studio, mainly for editing in Lightroom, but it has awful colors, much to colorful, especially the greens and reds, almost as bad as my old apple cd 23", so I wouldn't recommend that one for serious work, although a lot of shooters would be happy with it.
A friend has the old LaCie 21", it is quite nice but doesn't come close to the CG211, therfore it's a bit cheaper. I don't know about the new LaCie Screens...
So if money is not the problem, I would always recommend the CG211.
cheers,
martin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179018\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i use an eizo 210, a 211 and a lacie 19".
cant see differneces between the 210 or the 211, so why not to take the cheaper one, the 210.
would not buy again a lacie....
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Need a new LCD monitor-PC compatible for sure. Cannot decide between LaCie, Eizo or something else like NEC...
Any & all suggestions will be appreciated. Budget of +/- $2500, I think could be adequate. Shooting for magazine - CMYK & their print-shop's profile.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179017\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The NEC's running SpectraView are a great bang for the buck and the system works really well. Why spend extra money? As yet, I've seen nothing published that points out what you're getting for the significantly higher cost of the Eizo. I'm waiting on testing from Karl Lang (www.luminta.com) but Eizo has been difficult (no, nearly impossible) about getting units to him to test (or me). That leaves me suspicious to say the least. If the product is that much better, lets see it.
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If you are shooting as a business I would suggest the Eizo. It seems to be the brand most accepted as the standard to meet from conversations I have had with color specialists, professional retouchers etc. I bought one and I am very pleased.
LaCie might be a decent monitor but considering their abysmal customer support and high fail rate for their external hard drives, I would say that they don't deserve your money.
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I have been using cheap Dell monitors for the last couple of years. My largest client, a publisher uses monitors as bad or worse than mine (actually most are). The printer uses his own parameters & monitors to get it the way he thinks it should (or as we perceive it should).
I have pretty good eyes but in no way I would say my color judgement is 100%, whose is anyways? My point being that though color might be an absolute thing, we all perceive it highly subjective. Sometimes I am sure something is definitely blue while my wife says it is green (the wife is always right ). Same goes for other people.
Besides the obvious things as durability and color shifting at age or heat-up what really are the benefits of buying an expensive Eizo instead of a cheap Dell (or any other cheaper but properly functioning monitor for that matter)?
Not to be bashing high-end monitors but it sometimes really makes me wonder is it really worth the money and if so why?
My studio (or what passes for it) will be redone next month so I am thinking about getting another (maybe 2) 24" monitor. Just not sure whether I will spend 2K (or even more) or 700 euros for it.
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I have the NEC 2190 uxi and highly recommend it, and will also tell you it is every bit the equivalent of an Eizo regardless of the model. I bought my NEC about two years ago and did some swapping of monitor profiles back and forth with a fellow down in Las Vegas, forget his name at the moment but he runs a business called Outback Digital (not to be confused with) Uwe Steinmullers a different firm for sure. Anyway this fellow owned at the time a the Eizo CG210 and with his gear and software measured the delta e's as well as the color gamuts of our displays along with a Sony Artisan if memory serves me correct. In all categories the NEC 2190 was on top of the heap.
Since then the Eizo's changed the name to the 211 and I believe uppped the specs so it is possible in some areas the Eizo's might edge out the NEC but you would sure be splitting some fine hairs based upon our earlier conclusions as the NEC was out in the lead compared to the 210 by a ways. My own practical experience is the 2190 is by far the best monitor I have ever owned and when profiled correctly can produce the smoothest gray ramps I have seen, it is very stable and exhibits fine delineation of subtle hues of color and highlights. Having used one I would never consider the higher price of the Eizo's but each to his own. I use this monitor for some very critical color correction and soft proofing for artist who are about as picky as they come.
Regarding the Lacie. Not sure why so many folks are enthusiastic about this company. Lacie makes nothing, zero zilch nada including the displays which are all made by NEC. Lacie markets things and re-badges products made by other companies, which you get to pay higher prices for and receive gawd awful customer service with. Locally I am called upon to profile monitors for publishers as well as design firms and to a small degree be a color consultant. In that regard I have profiled many a different monitor including close to a dozen different ACD's by now. Not a single one of them have had the same native white point and not a single one of them have ever profiled identically compared to the one setting next to it. And for sure none of them have had the subtle qualities of the NEC 2190.
Currently at Provantage you can get the 2190 for less than a grand, or the 2690 which displays over 90% of the Adobe RGB gamut for around $1200 and this is the display that won the Macworld best of Show award last year I believe. Use the rest of the money saved on an Eizo for a photo trip.
Hope this helps in your decision making process.
Rob
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I'm a big Eizo fan and have been using a 210 for quite some time. I am however intrigued by the NEC 2690 and may go that route when I purchase another system later this year.
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WOW!! Lotsa replies & thanks to each & everyone of you. I am going to try to see some of the NEC models before plunking down hard-earned cash. At this moment I am not sure which way I am leaning toward, but will keep you posted.
Thanks guys appreciate your collective efforts.
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After reading this thread I started looking for a new monitor myself again Now, there are a million reviews like things. I stumbled upon this on; http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/reviews.html (http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/reviews.html) which has quite a list of monitors discussed in the thread.
I might have a look at the 30" Dell (as soon as the builders have left in a month or 2) I still find iit difficult as well.
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WOW!! Lotsa replies & thanks to each & everyone of you. I am going to try to see some of the NEC models before plunking down hard-earned cash. At this moment I am not sure which way I am leaning toward, but will keep you posted.
Thanks guys appreciate your collective efforts.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179057\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A quick anecdote that I think is telling about the whole process of picking a new monitor. Last summer, I did a two day private workshop with Joseph Holmes at his studio in Northern California. Joe knows far more than most about color management, having written the Prove It software, one of the first easily affordable software packages for profiling a monitor. He is also a world class fine art printer. I fully expected that he would be using a Sony Artisan or, if he had switched to an LCD, surely nothing less than a state-of-the-art Eizo. Well, I sure was surprised when I first walked into his studio and saw that he was using a 23" Apple Cinema Display! It did not seem to be holding him back in producing beautiful work.
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no one uses apple? i am happy with my dual 20" cinema display , and it also work with PC
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In regards to Apples and Dells - they simple are not half the monitors that those discussed in this thread are.
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I'm sorry to tell you the following, regarding monitors:
1. You get what you pay for.
2. You need to look at a monitor to evaluate it. Specs don't help except if you are an expert at reading the specs of monitors (like Andrew) and know who you can trust (like Andrew).
There is an sometimes an exception to rule 1, when a company leads with a new technology.
Oh, and by the way, do I really have to quote rule 1 and 2 to people in the MF forum ?
Edmund
PS. The CG 210 is as good as the 211 IMHO. The 211 has some uniformity correction added, but loses luminosity.
PS2. There seem to be lots of batches of Apple monitors. I don't know how good the ones being sold now are.
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I've had the Eizo CG211 for a couple of months. It's fabulous for soft proofing. You can shift your head from side-to-side without seeing any color or luminance shift. That is not the case with the NEC or LaCie monitors. The warranty is better than the industry standard. I expect to get five years out of this monitor. Considering that my business reputation depends on color accuracy, I see the $2,600 spent for this monitor as a modest investment.
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I was about to drop 2400$ on an Eizo. I didn't think there was anything else in that league. The NEC's came to my attention from posts on this board (Thank you Andrew Rodney).
There is no question that the Eizos have outstanding image quality-but at less than half the price I decided to get the NEC 2490. The image quality is also outstanding, and it calibrates easily. The spectraview software is really a necessity and a bargain for $100.
For me, the NEC is an incredible value and will probably get a second one with the money I saved.
It is certainly worth doing a side by side comparison with the Eizo. Only you can decide if one is "better" than the other. And if one is better, how much is that "betterness" worth?
Best,
Frank Poole
www.frankpoole.com
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I have no idea what NEC you are talking about but it can't be the 2190 uxi. NEC makes hundreds of different monitors most being office quality and even make a version of the 2190 using PVA vs S-IPS type of panel, and why they do this is beyond me. But in the case of the 2190 uxi it definitely does not change color or luminance by moving around. Can't comment on the 2490 or 2690 not having owned one but from what I can tell it appears these two also use NEC's proprietary panel also used in the 2190.
Also just to clarify my earlier post, ACD=Apple Cinema Display. Pretty nice displays, sleek and elegant but not quite on the same par for color and luminance accuracy as the NEC's or Eizo's.
Hope this helps.
I've had the Eizo CG211 for a couple of months. It's fabulous for soft proofing. You can shift your head from side-to-side without seeing any color or luminance shift. That is not the case with the NEC or LaCie monitors. The warranty is better than the industry standard. I expect to get five years out of this monitor. Considering that my business reputation depends on color accuracy, I see the $2,600 spent for this monitor as a modest investment.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179087\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Hi,
I'm now using a NEC2190 UxP as test, it will be moved to the studio for capturing and the workshops.
For myself (editing etc.) I will be testing the new Lacie 24" 95% ARGB monitor which has just been released.
They will send me one in a few days for review, and maybe it will stay.
Otherwise I will go to the Eizo.
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Note that the NEC 2190UxP and 2190uxi, notwithstanding their very similar model designations, are very different animals.
Nill
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www.toulme.net
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And, what would be those differences, please?
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I'm no expert on monitors, but I was looking at a new NEC at the Focus on Imaging exhibition here in the UK. It seemed very impressive, is a 30" monitor and will be released around July this year.
May be worth looking at ....
Clive
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Are the people complaining about colour accuracy talking about 'out of the box' performance?
Only calibrated performance is relevant, imho.
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In regards to Apples and Dells - they simple are not half the monitors that those discussed in this thread are.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179074\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Would you care to elaborate on that? On the few tests I am reading about the Dell 30" and the spec's (both tested as well as stated by the manufacturer) the monitor is actually pretty good. Not as good as the Eizo but certainly not far behind the NEC.
I would love to know where the Dells fall short?
Sure you get what you pay for, I am used to paying more than double for a MFDB that according to some is only a small percentage better than the 1DSIII
Now, does the same apply for monitors?
BTW. Naturally we are only talking about calibrated performance otherwise it is impossible/futile to compare.
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Are the people complaining about colour accuracy talking about 'out of the box' performance?
Only calibrated performance is relevant, imho.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179119\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
We're talking about the monitor's *ability * to be calibrated.
Of course some of us then turn around and talk about the calibration device and software quality
Edmund
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PVA vs S-IPS screen
Rob
And, what would be those differences, please?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179114\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Just to clarify my previous post - I am using the NEC 2490Wuxi. Nill and routlaw's comments are accurate to my experience. The uxi series is completely different that the other nec's.
It has a very wide viewing angle - if it didn't, it just wouldn't work for me as I shoot in the studio with live video and am often viewing the screen at a severe angle. I can also report it is very even in luminance and color across the whole screen. And, again the calibration software is great. I haven't done it yet, but I believe you can make and store different profiles and change with a click.
Andrew?
Best,
Frank Poole
www.frankpoole
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I haven't done it yet, but I believe you can make and store different profiles and change with a click.
Andrew?
Yes, that's correct.
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Regarding the Lacie. Not sure why so many folks are enthusiastic about this company. Lacie makes nothing, zero zilch nada including the displays which are all made by NEC. Lacie markets things and re-badges products made by other companies, which you get to pay higher prices for and receive gawd awful customer service with. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179043\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I bought two LaCies a couple of years back and they were very cheap compared to others on the market, including the monitors they were rebadged versions of.
Some of my ext hard drives are LaCies and again they were very good value. But I don't buy direct from LaCie as their prices are way above what you can pay elsewhere.
I've had the Eizo CG211 for a couple of months. It's fabulous for soft proofing. You can shift your head from side-to-side without seeing any color or luminance shift. That is not the case with the NEC or LaCie monitors. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179087\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Funny I don't get that problem with my LaCies and they produce perfect colours out of the box too.
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I've been using an Eizo CG21 for a number of years now, and it's great.
Given that, my next monitor will be an NEC. I was gonna get the 2690, but will now wait for the new NEC 30 inch (3090) to come out. It's supposed to be pretty impressive. I've spoken to a number of dealers and they say, once calibrated, the NEC are just as good as the Eizo, but at a considerable price break.
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recently bought a nec 2690wuxi and i love it! it looked good out of the box, then i calibrated it iwith my gretag eye1display to make it look awful.
i went upgrading to a eye1display2 , now it looks great! i am very happy that i didn't spend more on an Eizo
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recently bought a nec 2690wuxi and i love it! it looked good out of the box, then i calibrated it iwith my gretag eye1display to make it look awful.
i went upgrading to a eye1display2 , now it looks great! i am very happy that i didn't spend more on an Eizo
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=179238\")
My impression is that display quality is generally decreasing as manufacturers are shooting for speed and luminosity over viewing angle. Strongly directional monitors look brighter when you're right in front of them -headlight effect- and brightness matters for watching video in well-lit environments. Some of the worst offenders in this respect are the latest Apple laptops.
For those of you who want wide-gamut, the Samsung XL20 is an interesting new entry in the market:
[a href=\"http://www.shopbot.com.au/p-49500-1797308.html]http://www.shopbot.com.au/p-49500-1797308.html[/url]
Edmund
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Hi
Quato. Been using one almost 2 years.
Denis
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Hi
Quato. Been using one almost 2 years.
Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179245\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, Quato are definitely high-quality and proofing-oriented. In the past the Eizo/Quato fight was as close as Obama/Clinton, although Eizo always had a better channel presence due to the fact that they sell a lot of non-specialist displays as well. I'm not sure how good the support for Quato in third-party profiling software is these days, but I'm sure Jack or Derrick will tell us
Edmund
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... I haven't done it yet, but I believe you can make and store different profiles and change with a click.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=179147\")
Why would one want to do that? For different ambient lighting conditions? For different print viewing conditions?
Nill
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[a href=\"http://www.toulme.net]www.toulme.net[/url]
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Why would one want to do that? For different ambient lighting conditions? For different print viewing conditions?
~~
www.toulme.net (http://www.toulme.net)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179285\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Exactly. Even different contrast ratio based on paper type.
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hey guys,
1.)
what´s the difference between the 210/211CG and my CG241w except size???
cause i´ve been working with that for 4 months now, and coming from an old 17"apple studiodisplay
it makes such a difference.
2.)
the crazy thing with the macbookpro´s screen is, that it´s so different in brightness and tint ( even calibrated with the same tools ( spyder 3 elite and coloureyes displaypro)) that you`re simply fumblin´in the "bright" when you´re working that way and there seems to be nothing to be done about this.
cheers, zobelinski from NZ
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I'm no expert on monitors, but I was looking at a new NEC at the Focus on Imaging exhibition here in the UK. It seemed very impressive, is a 30" monitor and will be released around July this year.
May be worth looking at ....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179117\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There was also a new 30" Samsung, not on sale yet that looked quite interesting. I forget the name of it unfortunately. They claimed it was better than an Eizo!
The chap at the Eizo stand laughed at that claim. Hard to tell if this was hubris or the simple facts.
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Exactly. Even different contrast ratio based on paper type.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179286\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi!
What's the idea behind this? To lessen the difference between softproof and normal viewing? To have the largest amount of levels available in display when softproofing?
Sorry an OT question: How is the whitepoint defined in common pressprofiles (especially ISOcoatedV2ECI vs EuroscaleCoatedv2) as there are big differences between the profiles although they are often used on the same papers? At least the softproof gives a very different hue depending on the profile. Are they calculated from averaged measurements of several typical coated papers?
Cheers,
J
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• Eizo's displays are used for medical imaging which may mean they're meeting more stringent standards.
• CG210/CG211 and Apple's 23 use S-IPS LCD panels while the CG241w uses S-PVA:
http://lists.apple.com/archives/Colorsync-...v/msg00406.html (http://lists.apple.com/archives/Colorsync-users/2007/Nov/msg00406.html)
• The same gradient file on the CG241w will appear more choppy/with steps while smoother on the CG211, perhaps due to each display's internal electronics.
hey guys,
what´s the difference between the 210/211CG and my CG241w except size???
cheers, zobelinski from NZ
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• Eizo's displays are used for medical imaging which may mean they're meeting more stringent standards.
• CG210/CG211 and Apple's 23 use S-IPS LCD panels while the CG241w uses S-PVA:
http://lists.apple.com/archives/Colorsync-...v/msg00406.html (http://lists.apple.com/archives/Colorsync-users/2007/Nov/msg00406.html)
• The same gradient file on the CG241w will appear more choppy/with steps while smoother on the CG211, perhaps due to each display's internal electronics.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180839\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, the CG210/211 is has a smaller gamut, but is much more resistant to viewing angle changes than the CG241.The CG211 is less bright than the CG210 but more uniform. The choppiness of the CG241w may be due to the larger gamut which means more delta per step. I prefer the CG210/211 to the CG241, by far but the CG221/222 is also very nice if you need wide gamut. I'm not sure the CG241 really deserves the "CG" designation.
Frankly, the CG are usually "reference monitors" and normal human beings would probably do better going for the cheaper ColorEdge series.
Edmund
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My 211 has higher delta E than my 210 had. (DDC hardware calibrated with Color-Eyes)
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Your Delta E (actually the drift from perfect ) is not the whole story.
Often this is only measured for the grayscale, for a good monitor you need the following things.
1. Good primaries and secondaries (actually this is were ALOT of monitors just plain fail, and you can forget all the rest).
2. High bit correction options, prefarable in the panel itself, very important for graduates, without it your picture will look horrible in graduates.
3. Good grayscale tracking, I always keep a dE below 5 for 30-100 IRE as a standard.
4. Good Gamma, preferable for me personally between 2.2 and 2.4
5. Good contrast value, for me prefarable 1000:1 or higher MEASURED AT THE CALIBRATED settings of max 130 cdm2
Alot of monitors will give you 2000:1 at their highest lightoutput and will drop considerably when calibrated (often well below the 700:1 mark)
6. Color and brightness uniformity (also VERY important, especially for skinwork and clothing)
7. NO digital enhancements like everything with dynamic or sharpness
8. black casing (looks like something less important but for longer times working behind it it's very important, it gives you a higher contrast feeling and it's easier on the eyes, they will concentrate on the screen instead of the casing)
9. Resolution, for me 1600x1200 is the ideal resolution and preferable nothing less.
10. Option to change the angle, height of the monitor.
This all combined makes the monitor perfect or less perfect.
dE is just a measurement and means little if all the other things are not present.