Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: jashley on March 03, 2008, 11:50:09 am

Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: jashley on March 03, 2008, 11:50:09 am
If I remember correctly Jeff Schewe says in the C2P tutorial that he uses an LCD brightness setting around 140, but MR seemed surprised by that and said he was under 120 (might have even said 110).  And I see Andrew Rodney recommends 150.

It appears MR is using a "standard" print viewing set-up, and I would assume that Jeff and Andrew do, too.  I tried 150 to start with my NEC 2190 but it was way too bright.  I ended up at the manufacturer's recommended setting of 120, which gives an almost dead-on screen to print match.   I print on a 4800 with IP and a 2200 with the Epson driver, all custom profiles, and view with an Ott-Lite.

Really curious to hear from those who get the best match in the 140-150 range and how you view your prints.
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on March 03, 2008, 02:46:21 pm
Can't really accurately determine what the correct brightness/overall luminance level should be on an LCD without SEEING the brightness level of surrounding ambient light. As long as it matches your prints, reaching a cd/m2 target number seems too subjective to one's own eyesight.

I have my 2004 iMac set to 95cd/m2 to match a print viewed directly under GE 5000K Sunshine 18" T8 flotube. Anything higher produces way too much glare compared to the print.
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: jashley on March 04, 2008, 09:35:46 am
Quote
Can't really accurately determine what the correct brightness/overall luminance level should be on an LCD without SEEING the brightness level of surrounding ambient light. As long as it matches your prints, reaching a cd/m2 target number seems too subjective to one's own eyesight.

I have my 2004 iMac set to 95cd/m2 to match a print viewed directly under GE 5000K Sunshine 18" T8 flotube. Anything higher produces way too much glare compared to the print.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=178903\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes I'm sure ambient light has a lot to do with it; even so, I remember AR saying on another forum that "115 is way too low for anything but an aging LCD" and Michael is below that, and you're at 95.  Still kind of puzzled as to how you wouldn't end up with prints that were too dark at 150.
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: Lisa Nikodym on March 04, 2008, 02:10:57 pm
Just to toss in another data point, I found that 100 cd/m2 matches my prints quite well.  That's using a brand-new NEC 2690 in a room with moderately dim home lighting, and comparing with prints viewed under a frosted skylight with direct sun on it.  Not exactly well-controlled conditions in my case, but that's what works for me.

Lisa
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: jackbingham on March 04, 2008, 05:42:37 pm
While it would be great to have a standard, unfortunately we have two issues without. There is no hard and fast rule for how dim you can drive an lcd. It is dependent upon that very lcd. Many newer lcd's from Apple and NEC perform better at higher luminance levels than say an Eizo. But we have seen substantial variation from monitor to monitor of the same model too. As for how bright is right, as has been stated a number of times here, you need to base you screen luminance on your ambient conditions and your perception of how those two things line up. There are no hard and fast rules here either. Clearly this is more complicated now that we not only need to consider ambient conditions but wildly varying monitor behavior. Unfortunately that is where we are. find the sweet spot for your monitor and then, if need be adjust your ambient conditions to match. or if possible adjust your monitor down to your ambient conditions. 2 variables, oh so many choices!
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on March 05, 2008, 01:56:48 am
And these luminance/brightness variances even between models makes me wonder if whatever the cd/m2 number comes out to be if Soft Proofing with paper white and ink black previews are affected.

How accurate could these luminance numbers be if all of us are all over the map with these varied LCD displays?
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: jackbingham on March 05, 2008, 06:39:34 am
Well it could be that instruments and software are not as precise as we would like, or that manufacturing of monitors is not as stable as we would like............or it could be that individual's perception is wildly variable or..........  Take your pick. I'll place most of my vote on 2 and 3. What really matters is that you can have the tools to stabilize your viewing conditions for your perception and maintain that because in general, instruments sensors and monitors are pretty stable. So once you've found the best settings for you, maintaining them is easy. Assuming we could have a standard for us all to use ignores the huge number of variables in the process.
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: rovanpera on March 05, 2008, 01:36:54 pm
The Eizo CG warranty for display accuracy states that the monitor brightness should not be set above 100cd.
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: jashley on March 05, 2008, 02:55:22 pm
Quote
The Eizo CG warranty for display accuracy states that the monitor brightness should not be set above 100cd.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179352\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's fascinating, and just causes my puzzlement at a recommendation of 150 to grow.  Makes sense given the responses so far though, which seem to be clustered around MR's 110.  Yes, it's a small "sample", however, two other photogs I know are at 115 and 120 with newer NEC's.

Still would like to hear from someone who's settled on anything around 150 and what lighting conditions they process/view under.
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: Tim Lookingbill on March 05, 2008, 03:12:07 pm
I can tell LCD manufacturers are intentionally making their displays brighter. The other day I saw a huge one used as a video billboard at a car dealership I passed along the freeway and it was blazingly bright with an insane contrast ratio that seemed brighter than the midday daylight viewed under.

It just stuck out among all the other billboards. The images in the commercials it was playing seemed very correct looking with very dense blacks and bright whites.

It's probably going to be cited as a traffic hazard due to its distracting eyes off the road.
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: Hermie on March 05, 2008, 04:50:52 pm
Quote
The Eizo CG warranty for display accuracy states that the monitor brightness should not be set above 100cd.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=179352\")

"The warranty period of the backlight is warranted only if the monitors are used within the recommended brightness of up to and including 100 cd/m2 for the CG221/CG211 and 120 cd/m2 for the CG241W with the color temperature between 5,000 K-6,500 K"

See [a href=\"http://www.eizo.com/support/warranty/index.asp]http://www.eizo.com/support/warranty/index.asp[/url]
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: MarkF on March 05, 2008, 11:50:46 pm
Quote
That's fascinating, and just causes my puzzlement at a recommendation of 150 to grow.  Makes sense given the responses so far though, which seem to be clustered around MR's 110.  Yes, it's a small "sample", however, two other photogs I know are at 115 and 120 with newer NEC's.

Still would like to hear from someone who's settled on anything around 150 and what lighting conditions they process/view under.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179370\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm at 140cd/m and much happier than at 120. The monitor is a Samsung 214T calibrated with an Eye One. I use custom profiles for all my lab work and have a much better match now. My office is fairly bright, huge windows with reflected (not direct) daylight, so that may explain it. Thanks must go to Mr Rodney for suggesting ramping up the luminance.

Hope this helps,
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: jashley on March 06, 2008, 10:21:24 am
Quote
I'm at 140cd/m and much happier than at 120. The monitor is a Samsung 214T calibrated with an Eye One. I use custom profiles for all my lab work and have a much better match now. My office is fairly bright, huge windows with reflected (not direct) daylight, so that may explain it. Thanks must go to Mr Rodney for suggesting ramping up the luminance.

Hope this helps,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179480\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, this makes sense.  I was going to suggest earlier that people at 140-150 are probably working in essentially standard office lighting, and there you go.   Seems like there may be a divide between people doing "personal" work (landscape, nature, etc.) who likely work by themselves and prefer to process in more subdued lighting, and people doing commerical work in office conditions.
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: Satch on March 06, 2008, 12:32:56 pm
Quote
Yes, this makes sense.  I was going to suggest earlier that people at 140-150 are probably working in essentially standard office lighting, and there you go.   Seems like there may be a divide between people doing "personal" work (landscape, nature, etc.) who likely work by themselves and prefer to process in more subdued lighting, and people doing commerical work in office conditions.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179577\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sounds likely, but if as you say Andrew Rodney has made a blanket assertion that "115 is way too low for anything but an aging LCD" I still find that baffling, especially considering what was posted here about Eizo monitors.  

Andrew, I see that you are active on this forum and would bet that you're following this thread.  Please comment.
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: jashley on March 06, 2008, 01:24:14 pm
Quote
Sounds likely, but if as you say Andrew Rodney has made a blanket assertion that "115 is way too low for anything but an aging LCD" I still find that baffling, especially considering what was posted here about Eizo monitors. 

Andrew, I see that you are active on this forum and would bet that you're following this thread.  Please comment.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=179606\")

Here's where AR made the "115 is way too low..." comment.  Sounds fairly "blanket", I'd say.

[a href=\"http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00O5wU]http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00O5wU[/url]
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: rovanpera on March 06, 2008, 02:29:04 pm
Quote
"The warranty period of the backlight is warranted only if the monitors are used within the recommended brightness of up to and including 100 cd/m2 for the CG221/CG211 and 120 cd/m2 for the CG241W with the color temperature between 5,000 K-6,500 K"

See http://www.eizo.com/support/warranty/index.asp (http://www.eizo.com/support/warranty/index.asp)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179395\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Oh I didn't know that. Mine says 100.

I remember a few years ago trying to calibrate a new acd 20" to 100cd. Could not do it. Brightness set to zero was something like 110.
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: MarkF on March 06, 2008, 06:06:22 pm
Quote
"The warranty period of the backlight is warranted only if the monitors are used within the recommended brightness of up to and including 100 cd/m2 for the CG221/CG211 and 120 cd/m2 for the CG241W with the color temperature between 5,000 K-6,500 K"

See http://www.eizo.com/support/warranty/index.asp (http://www.eizo.com/support/warranty/index.asp)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179395\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I was thinking of buying an Eizo as the Samsung is not uniform in it's illumination, but may not now as I know I will void the warranty by running it at 140cd/m2. What to buy? NEC is not really an option as the "good" software to drive it is only available in the US (I'm in Aus)
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: Josh-H on March 06, 2008, 06:11:35 pm
Quote
NEC is not really an option as the "good" software to drive it is only available in the US (I'm in Aus)

Look harder - I have a 2690 Wuxi with SpectraView II in Australia and the software is 'out-there'
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: dlashier on March 06, 2008, 11:42:10 pm
Quote
Sounds likely, but if as you say Andrew Rodney has made a blanket assertion that "115 is way too low for anything but an aging LCD" I still find that baffling
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179606\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

While in general I respect AR's knowledge and advice, he has been known to make blanket baseless assertions on occasion

- DL
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: jackbingham on March 07, 2008, 06:57:04 am
There is no compelling reason to run all LCDs at 140 or any other number for that matter. There are displays, like the apple and NEC that behave better at higher luminance levels. If you work in a moderately well lit room then that could be another reason. However, if you work in subdued lighting and want a monitor that will work at 120 or less, buy one that responds well to those conditions. There are plenty of LCDs that work perfectly well at 120 or 100 and there is no reason supplied from Mt Olympus that would compel you to do otherwise.
Most of you are photographers.........use your eyes. Find the best solution for you. Ignore what anybody tells you if they say THIS IS THE NUMBER, which by the way Andrew is not saying. He has his recommendations based on his environment and his equipment.  He determined them by using his eyes. They do not necessarily apply to you.
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: digitaldog on March 07, 2008, 09:13:01 am
Its all really simple. Base display luminance on print viewing and ambient light around the display and workstation. You can't have this too low! The lower, the better (short of bumping into furniture). Any ambient light aside from the display will affect the perceived contrast ratio of the display (it can only be so black, any ambient light will affect this).

If the display is set as low as you can set it and the prints are still too light, lower the lighting on the prints (here's where using something like Solux isn't easy as you must move the lights or use NDs).

The LOWER the display luminance, the longer that display will be able to reach its desired (lower) luminance. That's good.

Is 115 too low for some LCD's? Yes, it is quite possible that a new, out of the box LCD will have difficulty hitting that value strictly by adjusting the hardware. That may be true for 120 or any value up to a point.
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: Satch on March 07, 2008, 01:17:52 pm
Quote
Its all really simple. Base display luminance on print viewing and ambient light around the display and workstation. You can't have this too low! The lower, the better (short of bumping into furniture). Any ambient light aside from the display will affect the perceived contrast ratio of the display (it can only be so black, any ambient light will affect this).

If the display is set as low as you can set it and the prints are still too light, lower the lighting on the prints (here's where using something like Solux isn't easy as you must move the lights or use NDs).

The LOWER the display luminance, the longer that display will be able to reach its desired (lower) luminance. That's good.

Is 115 too low for some LCD's? Yes, it is quite possible that a new, out of the box LCD will have difficulty hitting that value strictly by adjusting the hardware. That may be true for 120 or any value up to a point.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179776\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ok, this makes a lot more sense.  Go low if you can, since there are a lot of benefits--less eye strain, better ability to judge contrast, longer display life--but if your working conditions or monitor require it, don't be "afraid" to ramp it past 120 as needed.
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: Jack Varney on March 08, 2008, 03:15:01 pm
Quote
If the display is set as low as you can set it and the prints are still too light, lower the lighting on the prints (here's where using something like Solux isn't easy as you must move the lights or use NDs).

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179776\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What about when the display is set as low as possible and the prints come out too dark (as viewed under window light on a bright sunny day)?  I have tried 140cd down to 70cd on a Viewsonic VX910 calibrated via EyeOne Match 3. There is very little visible change from 70 to 140.
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: tived on March 08, 2008, 11:48:52 pm
Hi all,


isn't there some ISO standard for viewing conditions, to which should be followed to keep a standard.

there should be a given room light temp (Kelvin) eg 5000k and the monitors should have a given X k brightness.

Why buy viewing stations, to view our prints? there has to be a set of knowns as there is with viewing stations. room light color and intensity should be set to a standard and your monitor too.....just like when we make print profiles!!!

or is it just me thats loosing it with all the confusion....I am just surprised that no one here has refered to any ISO standards, or do you all have your personal set of standards to support own agenda's?

Guys with all respect....we have established printing profile standards, why not computer room and monitor standards?

..I better take on my fireproof suit, b4 the flames starts hitting me.... thanks for listening

Henrik

PS: Room is just under 5000k and i use 120 for my screen.
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: tived on March 09, 2008, 12:02:22 am
You may want to check out

ISO 3664 and ISO 12646, they are CH$96 each

Henrik
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: dlashier on March 09, 2008, 03:14:50 am
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If the display is set as low as you can set it and the prints are still too light, lower the lighting on the prints.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179776\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Andrew, I'm sure you know this but I think you meant "... and the prints are still too dark". Get another cup of coffee

- DL
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: digitaldog on March 09, 2008, 11:00:09 am
Quote
Hi all,
isn't there some ISO standard for viewing conditions, to which should be followed to keep a standard.


Yes. Its pretty old, needs updating for modern displays and needs to address the types of viewing conditions that are being used today besides just Fluorescent light booths.
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: jashley on March 10, 2008, 10:09:36 am
Quote
Andrew, I'm sure you know this but I think you meant "... and the prints are still too dark". Get another cup of coffee

- DL
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180168\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I thought the same thing when I first read it but I think this is actually "right".  AR I believe you're saying if you want to go as low as possible with your monitor, and it only goes to, say, 115, then if your prints are lighter than your monitor the only choice is to lower the lighting on the prints.  Yes?
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: digitaldog on March 10, 2008, 10:22:39 am
Quote
I thought the same thing when I first read it but I think this is actually "right".  AR I believe you're saying if you want to go as low as possible with your monitor, and it only goes to, say, 115, then if your prints are lighter than your monitor the only choice is to lower the lighting on the prints.  Yes?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180410\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yup.
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: dlashier on March 10, 2008, 04:42:04 pm
In general the relationship between monitor and print is inverse. A brighter monitor leads you to tone down the image which results in a darker print while a darker monitor leads you to "brighten" the image which results in a lighter print.

Where there can be some variance I suppose is the behaviour of the midtones on the monitor and/or printer since this is what we in general perceive as "dark" or "light".

- DL
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: AlanG on April 20, 2008, 12:00:46 am
There is an aspect of our vision called color and brightness constancy that  interferes with our ability to objectively determine shades and colors.  (For instance our vison adjusts to daylight, tungsten and fluorescent.)

So if you work in a darkened room without standard tone and neutral color references to balance your field of view, your only reference will be your monitor and print.  While they may match each other, they could be pretty far off in color or brightness and you may not notice it.  

I think there is another consideration.  It is one thing to match the print to the monitor, it is another thing to make a print that will look right in the intended environment.

So if you judge a print under a dim light in a dark room and it also matches a dark monitor, what happens when that print is displayed in a brighter room?  Don't you think it might look too light?
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: digitaldog on April 20, 2008, 10:28:45 am
Quote
I think there is another consideration.  It is one thing to match the print to the monitor, it is another thing to make a print that will look right in the intended environment.

So if you judge a print under a dim light in a dark room and it also matches a dark monitor, what happens when that print is displayed in a brighter room?  Don't you think it might look too light?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190719\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In the context of looking at the display and hoping what you see there will be what you get on the print, seems you have to place them next to each other and look at em. What happens when you move the print? Will sure, I suspect it will appear differently depending on if you're viewing it in an Elevator or someone's living room painted pink with tungsten lights. And we can't view that print and the display and if we could, who knows if they would match. Point is, we have on situation we can control (including the editing process of the document) and one we can't (fully). Reality sucks <g>
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: AlanG on April 20, 2008, 10:58:32 am
Quote
In the context of looking at the display and hoping what you see there will be what you get on the print, seems you have to place them next to each other and look at em. ...[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190760\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sure, there is no other way.  And I don't disagree with you on this.

But it is my feeling that the room where you compare the print to the image on the monitor should also be close to "normal" light levels so that your vision will have other references to standardize on.   Afterall, the idea isn't just to make a print that exactly matches the monitor (if this is even possible) but one that looks good under normal viewing conditions. However you define normal.

In a darkened room, you will adapt and accept changes on a monitor that would not seem correct had you kept your vision "calibrated" by seeing things in the surrounding area.  Assuming the surrounding area is relatively neutral looking.

I still can remember a demonstration of this effect when I was in school. We were given a travelog slide show in a darkened theater.  At the end the professors compared the first image to the last.  One was radically blue and the other was very warm.  They had gradually changed color filters over each image as it was projected from very cool to very warm and nobody detected this as it was going on.  The idea was to imprint on us how easily our vision accomodates color shifts when there is nothing to compare to.
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: digitaldog on April 20, 2008, 11:06:20 am
Quote
But it is my feeling that the room where you compare the print to the image on the monitor should also be close to "normal" light levels so that your vision will have other references to standardize on.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190764\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But what is "normal?" and how could this affect the process that is most critical, editing the image?

The higher the luminance by the display, the more it affects the perceived contrast ratio as any ambient light hitting the display affects its black. In such a case, lower is better, to the point that you can't go too low until you rip open your leg by bumping into a table!

We have to accept that we may not have any idea where the print will reside. And we have to realize that all ICC profiles assume a viewing condition of D50 (unless we have a high end package like ProfileMaker Pro, go out and actually measure the illuminant and build that into the profile).

None of this is prefect. But as Mr. Schewe would say, it beats pissing in the wind. At least setup an environment whereby you can view a print and the display such that you have a close match.

What do you do when you have to print a 30x40 but your light booth can only view 11x17? Well if you know that the print to display matching is good, you can at least print a smaller BAT image and if you're really good, do minor compensation for the document going to a larger size. This is all pretty controllable. Once you ask about where that 30x40 print will reside, and you take the display out of the equation, all bets are off. At least we can produce an environment where print and display are close such we get no surprises here.
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: Nill Toulme on April 20, 2008, 11:39:46 am
Just a note to observe that small differences can matter.  I work in a fairly dim room and have had my NEC 2090uxi calibrated to 95 cd/m².  I still thought my Epson 4800 prints were coming out a little dull, so I recently recalibrated to 90 cd/m², and I'm much happier with the results.

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net
Title: Why the Big Difference in LCD Brightness Settings?
Post by: AlanG on April 20, 2008, 11:41:00 am
Quote
...The higher the luminance by the display, the more it affects the perceived contrast ratio as any ambient light hitting the display affects its black. In such a case, lower is better, to the point that you can't go too low until you rip open your leg by bumping into a table!

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=190767\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

All I'm trying to say is that working in a dark environment causes other concerns that may affect one's perception and ability to judge colors.  But if it works for you, that is fine with me.