Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: hubicka on February 29, 2008, 06:44:33 pm
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Hi,
when cartridge runs out of ink, the printing stops with a message "press OK to start cartridge replacement". However OK just leads to beeping and message "option not available now" and so does chosing the ink replacement in menu. I always have to cancel the print and replace the cartridge. Is this expected or is there some better way?
Honza
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I second this question, and have been tossing a lot of ink and paper lately - always seems to run out in the last inch or two of a big print. I have gone to replacing ink carts when they get down to the "very low" warning - I'm sure that is HPs reasoning behind this in the first place, to sell ink. I would love to hear a solution to this issue...
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No solution that I'm aware of.
The printer reports low, then very low and then stops during a print. Very annoying. Especially since my Epson stopped, allowed you to replace the cart and then continue. It never ruined a print for me.
Honza's problem, however, seems quite different. The printer should take him through the cart replacement routine.
Honza, can you go to the "Ink Menu" on the printer console and select "Replace Ink cartridges"? What happens?
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Honza's problem, however, seems quite different. The printer should take him through the cart replacement routine.
Honza, can you go to the "Ink Menu" on the printer console and select "Replace Ink cartridges"? What happens?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=178348\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think we are describing the same problem. The printer stops during print and ask for replacement. Pressing OK to start procedure leads to the message as does chosing the Ink Menu/Replace Ink cartridges. I even tried unpulling the cartridge from printer when in this mode but it didn't lead to replacement routine either: message just changed from cartridge being empty to cartridge being missing and after placing replaced cartridge it complained about it needing reseating. Once I cancel the print, the replacement continue as expected and luckilly the experiment with unpluggin cartridge didn't lead to any problems.
I am bit disapointed especially because I was asking about this before buying printer and HP people told me it is possible to replace it in the middle of print. I was concerned that with 12 relatively small cartridges replacing might be anoying and indeed it is. I wondered if this is not problem of the last firmware, but I see that everyone else is seeing it, so I will just start replacing almost empty cartridges before print. I wonder why the out of ink situation does not lead to canceling the print automatically when this is only way out of the situation anyway....
Honza
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I am bit disapointed especially because I was asking about this before buying printer and HP people told me it is possible to replace it in the middle of print.
Honza
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=178417\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Same here. I was actually surprised (and happy)when I was told that you could just pull the empty cart and add the new one, and continue with the print. I felt cheated when, after replacing a cart the printer cut and ejected my almost-finished print.
To compound the problem: Since HP has not included any way to tell the printer the length of a roll of paper, just imaging an ink cart running out toward the end of a 40x60 print. You change the cart only to run out of paper after about 50 inches of your roll on the 2nd attempt at printing the image!
I keep a running total of how much of each roll I've used. I also will remove a cart when I get the Very Low Ink message if I have a fairly large picture to print. I save the almost empty cart for when I have only a few small things to print so I can use up the ink without risking a big loss of ink and paper.
You can get a general idea after 30 or 40 square feet of printing just how much each color (on average) is used per square foot, so that when a given cart gets low enough to trigger the message you can roughly estimate how much you can get out of that color.
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<<Honza's problem, however, seems quite different. The printer should take him through the cart replacement routine.>>
Same deal here. If I am just replacing a cart it will allow me to make the replacement just fine using the normal route, but if it happens during printing I have no choice but to burn the print, and also turn the printer off and then back on again before it will turn it loose. I've tried the cancel button but that was no use. Same thing with just pulling the cart - no way to continue with the printing.
Oh well, this printer uses so much less ink than my Epsons I guess it is worth the trouble now and then since the overall operating costs are greatly reduced...
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Well, since I started complaining today, I can't resist. The Gloss Enhancer cartridge went empty today while there was still 17ml reported by web interface. It is reporting it as faulty, not empty, but it means I can't print and next cartridges are arriving to Czech Republic only at 13th. I will try to report it and attempt to get replacement in warranty, or is it normal that the printer just miscounts such a considerable amount? (ie before last print it was still reported as "low").
Honza
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Well, since I started complaining today, I can't resist. The Gloss Enhancer cartridge went empty today while there was still 17ml reported by web interface. It is reporting it as faulty, not empty, but it means I can't print and next cartridges are arriving to Czech Republic only at 13th. I will try to report it and attempt to get replacement in warranty, or is it normal that the printer just miscounts such a considerable amount? (ie before last print it was still reported as "low").
Honza
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=178503\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've had one run out when it reported 6ml left, but usually is is more accurate than that. The numbers are only estimates, as it has no way of physically measuring the remaining ink, only what has been consumed via software. Unfortunately, this is an area that HP missed the boat with. Canon, with it's inline ink reservoir that buffers the ink supply, has the concept down right. The HP design isn't as bad as it might be, because of it's reasonable ink usage overall.
-Ron H.
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Thank you for all the comments! At least I am not only seeing this problem.
So, if the estimates are +-15% in 95% of cases as suggested by help page, it seems that there might be a lot of fun deciding whether to replace before it is empty or wait for print to fail.
I am now doing some 100x60cm prints on HP Satin Pro (the print quality is stunning BTW so I still feel happy despite all the problems) and they take about 10-13ml each. So in average one cartridge should run out every 10 prints (well I got 4 cartridges running out in last 3 prints). Soon I want to print prints twice as big, it is average of 5 prints only. Since it is not possible to replace the cartridge in the middle of print, it means that I would probably want to not use cartridges with less than 20ml ink in them in order to not waste that much of paper and other inks. (if the printer will stop in half of every 5th print, it would be 10%).
This way I will not use about 20% of the ink so I guess I would end up keeping them for smaller prints done at later time. Does someone have idea how much wasteful the swappinig process is? Ie if the ink is not wasted I guess I can live with this fun...
Honza
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Does someone have idea how much wasteful the swappinig process is? Ie if the ink is not wasted I guess I can live with this fun...
Honza
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=178523\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As far as I can tell, when you take a cartridge out there is still ink in the line. When you put the new cartridge in, I think the printer goes through a process of bleeding air out and equalizing the pressure in the line, which takes very little ink. It is probably no different than the routine the printer goes through periodically when it is left on. Just my guess, though.
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I have had no ruined prints by pulling and replacing cartridges between prints when prompted by "very low". I haven't measured the remaining ink but I'm sure it's just a couple ML. I re-use these "very low" carts for test prints until they're empty.
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I second this question, and have been tossing a lot of ink and paper lately - always seems to run out in the last inch or two of a big print. I have gone to replacing ink carts when they get down to the "very low" warning - I'm sure that is HPs reasoning behind this in the first place, to sell ink. I would love to hear a solution to this issue...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=178328\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
see man.. now this is the kind of CRAP i am talking about!!!
I hate this $#%@
have you tried calling HP yet.!?
fraudulant scamming ink dealers!
lets see if we can get their president on the horn
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see man.. now this is the kind of CRAP i am talking about!!!
I hate this $#%@
have you tried calling HP yet.!?
fraudulant scamming ink dealers!
lets see if we can get their president on the horn
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179496\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
1) Reportedly, HP's upcoming firmware update will fix this problem by permitting you to change ink in the middle of a print, and resume printing without losing your work. Just like the Epsons.
2) The Z3100 is still noticeably more frugal with ink than the Epsons.
3) And have you ever pried open one of the "empty" ink cartridges from one of the older big Epsons like a 7600? Still quite a bit of ink in the bag inside the box. Talk about scamming.
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Thank you for all the comments! At least I am not only seeing this problem.
So, if the estimates are +-15% in 95% of cases as suggested by help page, it seems that there might be a lot of fun deciding whether to replace before it is empty or wait for print to fail.
I am now doing some 100x60cm prints on HP Satin Pro (the print quality is stunning BTW so I still feel happy despite all the problems) and they take about 10-13ml each. So in average one cartridge should run out every 10 prints (well I got 4 cartridges running out in last 3 prints). Soon I want to print prints twice as big, it is average of 5 prints only. Since it is not possible to replace the cartridge in the middle of print, it means that I would probably want to not use cartridges with less than 20ml ink in them in order to not waste that much of paper and other inks. (if the printer will stop in half of every 5th print, it would be 10%).
This way I will not use about 20% of the ink so I guess I would end up keeping them for smaller prints done at later time. Does someone have idea how much wasteful the swappinig process is? Ie if the ink is not wasted I guess I can live with this fun...
Honza
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=178523\")
I'm printing slightly larger prints right now and replace the carts before the next print as soon as they hit 5-6 ML left, at 9 ML I still continue or it must be a night scene and the MK is running low. The status Low, Very Low warnings are related to the cart size so at 10% left you have a problem with a 69 ML cart and not with a 130 ML cart. Better check the MLs left. When I have removed a cart I put it on a scale and write both HP's MLs left and my measured grams left on the cart. Edit: the 69 ML cart is dry at 38 grams, the 130 ML cart at 50 grams (ink pulled out with a syringe). The cart pump will not be able to do it as much but leave 5 ML at most in the cart. So far my measurements tell me HP overfills the carts and the MLs left in the cart when really empty are not paid for. Typical full 130 ML is 193 grams. That's a content of 143 grams which doesn't have to be 143 ML but in practice it is more than 130 ML. (Edit: I measured a mix of 27 ML left over ink and it is actually 27 grams.) Like others I will use the nearly empty carts for test prints etc. Being used to some generations of Epsons where more ink is left in carts and more ink goes in the waste box I rather keep an eye on ink consumption and replace the carts in time than throw away ink in a less controllable way.
On end of paper rolls, it could be a nice addition to the paper settings on the printer display if you could insert the approx. roll length and the printer gives a record of what is left in the supply window. Have the printer measure rolls like it measures sheets is not a good idea and roll weight will not tell much. Coding on the roll and leftovers could be used but people already complaining about the 8 cm cut off on gloss paper may not like that either. I would like it.
Ernst Dinkla
try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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Thanks for the weight info Ernst. I too have been weighing them on a scale. Sometimes I don't get the Very Low warning. It jumps from Low to Empty without the Very Low warning. When it tells me its down to 9ml I start weighing the cart to see when it will need replacement. Its the grams that tell the best story.
The leftover ink I use for touchups with a very very fine paint brush when I find those occaisonal little white specks missing on a print.
Charlie
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Thanks from me, as well, Ernst, for the information about weights. I have an accurate scale, but never thought to do that. Presumably, the cartridges seal themselves well enough that there is no concern about shelf life for a mostly empty color? Do you keep them in ziplock bags after you pull them? I haven't tried saving my "empties", but would imagine that in many cases I would miss more than one cartridge change before finding the timing right to use up a nearly empty cart.
-Ron H.
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Thanks for the weight info Ernst. I too have been weighing them on a scale. Sometimes I don't get the Very Low warning. It jumps from Low to Empty without the Very Low warning. When it tells me its down to 9ml I start weighing the cart to see when it will need replacement. Its the grams that tell the best story.
The leftover ink I use for touchups with a very very fine paint brush when I find those occaisonal little white specks missing on a print.
Charlie
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It may be the grams that tell the story but I suspect the ink counter goes by the droplets fired. So if there's 10 ML left according the HP software and there's 20 grams in the cart it may leave 10 ML in the cart when it's declared empty (all round numbers). I can only see two other methods the printer could drain the cart better and that is by a sensor that checks the ink pressure in the line or a sensor that checks the cart pump actuator whether it has to work harder for the last drops while creating a vacuum in the cart. The last is the more reliable method. I have not tested yet whether carts declared empty contain the same amount of ink left, if so that would indicate an extra sensor. If the empty cart content varies it is more likely a droplet counter that is used. I have lots of carts still holding 5 ML according to HP but with varying weights. I have few empty carts yet that are not touched afterwards so I can not reliably measure them.
I do not think that the last MLs ink will change much in the cart when stored for some time. The seal is punctured but closes well enough. One of the advantages of the HP cart design is that the ink is taken out at the underside and agitated by the cart pump. Pigment settling has less chance that way if compared to the sideway draining of the Epson carts even if the last is combined with Epson's air pressure system like on the 10000-9800-9880 models. I have no idea what is used on the 11880. The last ink left in a HP cart is not more loaded with pigment than the first MLs were.
A drawing pen ISO 0.18 or 0.25 filled with inkjet ink is what I use for pinholes in black and saturated areas. On mixed color a good quality water-soluble color pencil creates an easier match.
Ernst Dinkla
Try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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I think I'll keep my 9600 for a while longer.
Mine has been printing flawless since I got it. Have never had any clogging problems or anything else. I can leave it off for a month or more and turn it on and send an image to it and it prints just fine.
I know... just lucky!!
Epson did adjust the amount of ink left in the bag before it is "empty".
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I got an email from HP with the following info;
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" * Coming end of the month: Next firmware and driver versions
o By end of the month, we are planning to have new firmware version 7 together with new drivers for MAC and Windows platforms. The main features will be:
+ From firmware side: Cartridge swapping in the middle of a print: In case the printer runs out of ink in the middle of a print, the print will not be cancelled and the printer will wait for customer to exchange the empty cartridge.
+ From drivers side: MAC OS X.5 support for HP Designjet Z3100PS
· There would be a follow-up communication with further detail. Notice that in this new firmware release there will not be changes on the internal structure of paper presets, so the latest documentation on "Working with other commercially papers" for FW 6 will be also valid for FW 7"
oooo
Mike
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Great news, Mike. Thanks so much for sharing.
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Darn. HP has to go and ruin things, just as I was getting onboard with weighing and swapping my almost empty cartridges to squeeze all the ink out of them. This takes all the sport out of it, but I suppose I can get used to it.
-Ron H.
PS: I wish I knew why I never have received any notices from HP about technical matters like Mike. I'm on the list for updates, but have yet to ever get one directly.
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Darn. HP has to go and ruin things, just as I was getting onboard with weighing and swapping my almost empty cartridges to squeeze all the ink out of them. This takes all the sport out of it, but I suppose I can get used to it.
-Ron H.
PS: I wish I knew why I never have received any notices from HP about technical matters like Mike. I'm on the list for updates, but have yet to ever get one directly.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179797\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Don't feel so bad, I got an email from someone in HP that I was dealing with when I had a lot of headstrike problems when trying to print on FAP about a year ago. The email was sent to me by mistake I'm sure....
I've never had one before....
Mike
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I have not tried the new firmware / driver yet. But, if in fact, the issue of changing a cart in the middle of a print is addressed, I have to say I'm very impressed with HP (I've been impressed with the z3100 from day one). I considered the cart changing isssue very minor, more of an annoyance, but it will be great to have if fixed.
Some implied early on that HP would not address some of the annoyances of the z3100 for the purchasers, rather they would address the probs in future models like some other companies (cough, ahem..epson...cough, cough). I am impressed with HP's commitment to the z. And for future reference to HP and other companies, this commitment is the way to get and KEEP a customer. Glad I made the switch. Keep up the good work.
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The commitment of Z3100 engineers on improving the machine is really impressive. On the other hand I am impressed how many problems this machine got (not speaking of HP website or willingness to import anything here to Czech Republic). The ink swapping issue seems almost like simple bug in firmware: everything seems ready to do the operation when printing stops, just firmware won't let you.
There are number of other issues of this nature. For example I don't understand why turning off the machine for a short while leads to head cleaning cycle, when the PC hidden in machine has clock and knows it wasn't long... We also had at least 3 firmware crashes this year.
In any case the pleasure from quality prints and economical factors of running z3100 outweights the problems and I am very happy the issue of ink cartridges changing is being addressed so soon after we hit it.
Honza http://sechtl-vosecek.ucw.cz (http://sechtl-vosecek.ucw.cz)
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The commitment of Z3100 engineers on improving the machine is really impressive. On the other hand I am impressed how many problems this machine got (not speaking of HP website or willingness to import anything here to Czech Republic). The ink swapping issue seems almost like simple bug in firmware: everything seems ready to do the operation when printing stops, just firmware won't let you.
There are number of other issues of this nature. For example I don't understand why turning off the machine for a short while leads to head cleaning cycle, when the PC hidden in machine has clock and knows it wasn't long... We also had at least 3 firmware crashes this year.
In any case the pleasure from quality prints and economical factors of running z3100 outweights the problems and I am very happy the issue of ink cartridges changing is being addressed so soon after we hit it.
Honza http://sechtl-vosecek.ucw.cz (http://sechtl-vosecek.ucw.cz)
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I don't know about the head-cleaning cycle, but I know it is recommended that the z be left on all the time.
There have been some minor annoyances, but I guess I'm just really pleased that there haven't been more, as the z3100 is the first of its kind. Rarely does a new product or generation start off this well. As good as it is, HP's response to the issues some have had is what has caught my attention even more than the outstanding prints the z produces.
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I got an email from HP with the following info;
oooo
" * Coming end of the month: Next firmware and driver versions
o By end of the month, we are planning to have new firmware version 7 together with new drivers for MAC and Windows platforms. The main features will be:
+ From firmware side: Cartridge swapping in the middle of a print: In case the printer runs out of ink in the middle of a print, the print will not be cancelled and the printer will wait for customer to exchange the empty cartridge.
+ From drivers side: MAC OS X.5 support for HP Designjet Z3100PS
· There would be a follow-up communication with further detail. Notice that in this new firmware release there will not be changes on the internal structure of paper presets, so the latest documentation on "Working with other commercially papers" for FW 6 will be also valid for FW 7"
oooo
Mike
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=179771\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Finally could download firmware.
Download completed, mounted file, alright.
I go to the updating window in Printer Utility, select new firmware file (ending with .fmw, as stated by HP).
Click "Update". 1%… 2% … 4% Then, crash. A stange message, telling it could not reach server, etc.
Which server, I have none, and the firmware file is on my HD ?
No matter how I try, I get the same error message
My current firmware is 5.0.0.4, so the new one should install itself.
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It may be the grams that tell the story but I suspect the ink counter goes by the droplets fired. So if there's 10 ML left according the HP software and there's 20 grams in the cart it may leave 10 ML in the cart when it's declared empty (all round numbers). I can only see two other methods the printer could drain the cart better and that is by a sensor that checks the ink pressure in the line or a sensor that checks the cart pump actuator whether it has to work harder for the last drops while creating a vacuum in the cart. The last is the more reliable method. I have not tested yet whether carts declared empty contain the same amount of ink left, if so that would indicate an extra sensor. If the empty cart content varies it is more likely a droplet counter that is used. I have lots of carts still holding 5 ML according to HP but with varying weights. I have few empty carts yet that are not touched afterwards so I can not reliably measure them.
Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=179644\")
Had to swap an LM 130 ML cart today as it was declared empty (between prints !). There was 4 ML remaining in the cart that I could pull out (with some difficulty) with a syringe. Cart was 48 grams when pulled empty. The new one was 192 grams. Difference 144 grams and the 4 ML pulled out is 4 grams. So 140 grams was used in the printer which is more than the 130 ML I paid for. Of the real content less than 3% in weight remains in the cart. I start to think that the printer senses the pump struggle with the last MLs before it declares the cart empty and uses the droplet counter for the stages before that. It will be statistically difficult to get so close to that 4 ML left just on the droplet counter. If so my hat goes off again for the HP engineers.
Ernst Dinkla
try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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I'm surprised that the Z3100 doesn't track roll length. The 5000/5500s do this, print a barcode on the end when you unload with the remainder info, and reads this when the roll is reloaded. Works really well.
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I'm surprised that the Z3100 doesn't track roll length. The 5000/5500s do this, print a barcode on the end when you unload with the remainder info, and reads this when the roll is reloaded. Works really well.
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No the Z printers don't write to the back of the trailing edge upon unload as some others printers both HP or others do. It would be nice, and I'm confident if enough users request it, it would be in the next models.
If it is true , you can now swop midstream without loosing the print then great.
Since the release there have been many changes that go beyond bug fixes. Although the market demands a price for upgrading, HP have not ruled out in any way of making upgrades for current users. It's up to them to decide, but in my eyes they are very open to users desire to maintain and update current models in both software and hardware. Very impressive IMO.
Ernst's findings are what I found too. I had slightly less ink left in the cartridges but that is never going to be a fixed amount anyway.
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Since the Web status page even include section for length of the roll (always listed as "unknown") I expect that the tracking of roll length is another feature that didn't get into the final product deadline but hopefully is planned as firmware upgrade. Printer has everything it needs to do the trick.
Honza
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Tracing would be possible perhaps within the accounting section per job, but there are no provisions as per other HP or Canon printers with a small backside print out on the cut off of the roll.
I would still welcome a length used per roll over the many times missed guestimate of remaining paper!
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Since the Web status page even include section for length of the roll (always listed as "unknown") I expect that the tracking of roll length is another feature that didn't get into the final product deadline but hopefully is planned as firmware upgrade. Printer has everything it needs to do the trick.
Honza
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180566\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Even if HP doesn't change the printer firmware to enable tracking of how much paper is left on a roll, they should be able to alter the Jobs>Accounting report to keep a running total of paper used for each type of paper, divided by the width of the roll; a bit more elegance could be easily added by even entering manually the total length of the roll when first loading it.
As it is, I keep a running total of paper used for each roll so there are no surprises.
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Even if HP doesn't change the printer firmware to enable tracking of how much paper is left on a roll, they should be able to alter the Jobs>Accounting report to keep a running total of paper used for each type of paper, divided by the width of the roll; a bit more elegance could be easily added by even entering manually the total length of the roll when first loading it.
As it is, I keep a running total of paper used for each roll so there are no surprises.
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That is what I did before always noting the roll length used on a small paper inserted in the roll end.
The bigger problem was to remember to do this rigorously, for which I am not known for.
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I just created a simple excel sheet with all jobs printed (failed too), tracking every opened roll of paper -- it counts the remaining length. A bit annoying -- but better than nothing.