Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Dale_Cotton on February 20, 2008, 09:19:23 am
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I'm just about to spring for a 3800 and would hate to find out the morning after that something more appropriate had just been announced. I swap between MK and PK frequently, but am not prepared to pay an extra grand for the Canon 5100.
Also: I pulled the life support on my clog-happy 4000 about a month ago. I have a taker for the remaining inks, but if anyone wants the actual printer for parts, it's free for the taking. I'm in the Toronto area.
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I haven't check prices on the iPF5100 recently, but there was a post on DP Review a couple of days ago stating prices had decreased to the $1200-1300 range, probably to be competitive with the Epson 3800. Might be useful to check the current prices if the 5100 is still under consideration.
--John
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Do "steep" rebates signal warehouse cleanout?
Just got this email from Calumet - Buy an Epson 3800 with $150 of Exhibition Fiber Papers and get a Free Epson P-3000 (40Gb Photo Viewer - $420 value). With a few recent rebates on the 3800, is Epson trying to clear out their warehouse before they introduce the 3880?
If interested in Calumets offer, check it out at:
http://link.ixs1.net/s/ve?eli=s178731&si=t...61634&cfc=3html (http://link.ixs1.net/s/ve?eli=s178731&si=t105261634&cfc=3html)
Jpegman
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...would hate to find out the morning after that something more appropriate [than the 3800] had just been announced....
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With you there Dale. I'm holding out for the 11880's no-ink-swapping little 17" brother-from-another-mother since my Epson 4000 is showing its age. I can hold out probably until fall.
I figure it's worth damn near zero even in excellent shape, hardly worth shipping it, so I'll hook it up with K7 inks for B&W printing.
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Thanks to all so far!
John H. wrote:
prices had decreased to the $1200-1300 range
Google says this is a single vendor called www.ITSupplies.com. So I'd be leery even if I lived in the USA, which I don't.
Jpegman wrote:
With a few recent rebates on the 3800, is Epson trying to clear out their warehouse before they introduce the 3880?
Excellent question. But another question is whether a 3880 would only have the the Vivid Magenta ink set and not address the black swapping problem. That would be the easy route for Epson.
Mikeseb wrote:
so I'll hook it up with K7 inks for B&W printing
I don't do b&w but I'm curious whether the K7 inks would somehow get around the clogging problem? Are they dye-based, for instance? If so, if anyone in the Toronto area wants to cook up a b&w printer, my 4000 remains available.
Another point worth mentioning is that we just had the big trade show in Vegas; and as I understand not another until the fall or later. Product announcements seem to often but not always precede a trade show.
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ITSupplies is a VERY legit company. I've done business with them, but there are others like Shades of Paper who are closer to me and also have excellent prices.
Google says this is a single vendor called www.ITSupplies.com. So I'd be leery even if I lived in the USA, which I don't.
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With you there Dale. I'm holding out for the 11880's no-ink-swapping little 17" brother-from-another-mother since my Epson 4000 is showing its age. I can hold out probably until fall.
I figure it's worth damn near zero even in excellent shape, hardly worth shipping it, so I'll hook it up with K7 inks for B&W printing.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176178\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ditto here. Just getting ready for another power cleaning, but have to buy some more ink first
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ITSupplies is a VERY legit company. I've done business with them, but there are others like Shades of Paper who are closer to me and also have excellent prices.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176206\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Agreed. I have had excellent service from ITSupplies. They are at the top of my list for future orders. If you don't live in the U.S., that is of course another story.
--John
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Thanks again. With the smell of burning bridges as a background I just ordered a 3800 from CCBC.
TSupplies is a VERY legit company ... I have had excellent service from ITSupplies.
Thanks, both, for setting the record straight. In a way I'm glad ITSupplies does not operate in Canada. I could of course order a 5100 up from the US and accept the customs hit and possible warranty complications, but thinking about it rubbed my nose in the fact that I'm just not ready to leave the Epson fold, in spite of my problems with the 4000. Better the devil you know... ;)
Tim Gray wrote:
ust getting ready for another power cleaning, but have to buy some more ink first
In reference to a previous post: the trick is to immediately fold the CCBC sales receipt in half without looking at the cumulative total. ;) Imagine what my total will be with a 3800 tacked on to four years of consumables. ;) Not sure whether to be glad or sad that power cleaning didn't solve my 4000's clogging probs.
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Excellent question. But another question is whether a 3880 would only have the the Vivid Magenta ink set and not address the black swapping problem. That would be the easy route for Epson.
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I would suggest it is logical as well, since the ink swap issue on a 3800 is a relatively minor one, certainly nothing to compare to the 48/78/98xx printer series. I'm not sure it needs addressed on a 3800/3880 upgrade.
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Wayne wrote:
since the ink swap issue on a 3800 is a relatively minor one, certainly nothing to compare to the 48/78/98xx printer series
Wayne: minor for a single swap, sure - but cumulatively? Eric Chan in his 3800 Wiki (http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/index.html) estimates $3.00US/CDN for a switch from one black to the other and back. I might easily have done that four or five times per week with the 4000, since the odds that any two images I wanted to print would both be MK or both be PK were less than 50/50. I don't fancy having to make the choice between printing a pic now or ganging up jobs on the one hand vs. pouring as much ink into the maintenance tank per week as I would have clearing clogs with the 4000 on the other hand. Am I missing something here?
Frankly, I'm gambling that I can comfortably change my habits to cut back on swaps to no more than one per week. Of course, I'm speaking as an amateur here. For paying jobs it's no great hit to add an extra $3 per swap to the invoice.
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Wayne: minor for a single swap, sure - but cumulatively? Eric Chan in his 3800 Wiki (http://people.csail.mit.edu/ericchan/dp/Epson3800/index.html) estimates $3.00US/CDN for a switch from one black to the other and back.
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You are right ... if you are constantly swapping blacks this is more problematic. But still far less than the bigger printers, and it still seems logical from an engineering perspective to get a 3880 printer to market you most likely wouldn't re-engineer the machine because of the ink swap. This would involve a complete new head. It would be a nice add, so maybe Epson will surprise us.
It is a bigger deal on the 48/78/9880 printers, and I hope Michael's guess is right about a photokina announcement to put the 11880 head into these smaller printers. That would be a significant upgrade .. higher quality, clog problems pretty well gone, almost twice as fast as the previous printers. That head is so expensive it begs the question whether they can actually put it in an affordable smaller printer ... they may end up with a new line of "high" end printers and charge a little premium over the cost of the current printers, leaving the current printers also available. Fun to speculate
I'm so enthralled with the quality of the new fiber/baryta papers and their look that I'm inclined to agree with Michael ... just as Epson appears they are attempting to address the ink swap issue, I may find I won't be using matte black anymore anyway. I have an 11880, and haven't used MK for several weeks. Maybe the love affair with Epson Exhibition Fiber will end when I get the bill from my paper supplier
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Back to the original question of this thread. I wonder why HP hasn't introduced a 17 inch wide printer? They could either scale up the B9180 to accommodate 17 inch, or shrink down a Z series printer. Obviously there are pros and cons to each.
I seriously think that the entire market is missing the boat. Here most 17 inch printers are between $1300 and $1800 (street), and these guys could be upselling all of us on 17 wide printers with a 24 inch wide carriage. The current 24" printers all have horrible support for cut sheets. Why not make a 24" wide printer with a 17" or 24" cassette on the front, while still retaining the roll paper assembly on the back?
Just a thought. I know I would buy one, because I don't have the room for more than 1 printer.
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Has HP ever produced a 17" printer?
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Incentives have been around for the 3800 for quite some time (even before PPE last fall, if I remember correctly). I wouldn't take it as a sign that it will be replaced immediately.
That said, the 3800 came out in September 2006 so it wouldn't be a huge surprise to see an update sometime later this year or early next year.
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HP do make 18" printers, ,and if it were up to me a pigment 18" would be the way to go.
Yes HP should have had on ready for market a long time ago. Makes me wonder if they are as serious about the pro photo market as they would have us believe.
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Back to the original question of this thread. I wonder why HP hasn't introduced a 17 inch wide printer? They could either scale up the B9180 to accommodate 17 inch, or shrink down a Z series printer. Obviously there are pros and cons to each.
I seriously think that the entire market is missing the boat. Here most 17 inch printers are between $1300 and $1800 (street), and these guys could be upselling all of us on 17 wide printers with a 24 inch wide carriage. The current 24" printers all have horrible support for cut sheets. Why not make a 24" wide printer with a 17" or 24" cassette on the front, while still retaining the roll paper assembly on the back?
Just a thought. I know I would buy one, because I don't have the room for more than 1 printer.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=176314\")
Like Neil I think there should be a 17" Vivera pigment printer. My estimation is that it should look like a hybrid of the Z3100 and the B9180. With calibration but not a spectrometer aboard or possibly a cheaper HP colorimeter based one with HP profile creation software, X-rite will be too expensive. 10 channels instead of 12. 69 ML carts. It has to compete between the 3800 and the Canon iPF5100. A Z3100 scaled down would be too expensive, a B9180 scaled up without gloss enhancer will have it difficult in that market. And yes it should handle sheets like no other printer can, including dual side printing without smudges.
Epson still has to upgrade the x800 range, the 7880,9880 was a stop gap solution. The 3800 will stay and another 17" model with 9 channels or possibly 10 will be next to it with roll paper capacity etc. Like the 1520 was available next to the 3000.
All IMHO of course.
Ernst Dinkla
try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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If HP makes a 17 inch printer like the B9180 I would buy it. That's a great printer. I was told by a local dealer that HP is well aware of the need, but not to expect anything this year. :-(
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Incentives have been around for the 3800 for quite some time (even before PPE last fall, if I remember correctly). I wouldn't take it as a sign that it will be replaced immediately.
That said, the 3800 came out in September 2006 so it wouldn't be a huge surprise to see an update sometime later this year or early next year.
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The R2400 is older than the 3800, so it could be another year (or two).
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If HP makes a 17 inch printer like the B9180 I would buy it. That's a great printer. I was told by a local dealer that HP is well aware of the need, but not to expect anything this year. :-(
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If they do I hope it isn't proportionally larger than the B9180. I'd hate to have to find 40% more space for that thing.
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If they do I hope it isn't proportionally larger than the B9180. I'd hate to have to find 40% more space for that thing.
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The width would have to grow, the guides and bushings have to be increased in size, the tray of course, maybe the pump has to be a tad bit bigger for the ink supply tubes length increase, a few other things too. Yet this doesn't insist a total redo of the 9180 if it were to stay in the current chassis design. IF it were to be a hybrid between a Z and the Photosmart, it would probably be on the bigger size as you need more room for larger or different traction wheels and bearings/stepper motor, to guarantee higher precision in long run feed alignment.
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What is ironic is that the HP B9180 seems to have overall better customer satisfaction at the moment over the Z series of printers. I haven't seen any body rushing towards the thought of having a smaller Z3100.
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Hopefully HP won't abandon the 9180 in favour of the 8850 until they do produce a 17" model. The major weakness with HP 38 inks is the lack of a gloss optimizer which could easily be inserted in a 17" model of the 9100 series. But who knows if they are contemplating a 17" version of the Z3100 series.
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There are at least two ways to control gloss differential that could be employed with inkjets. The first and in my opinion is to use ink formulation that reduces to a minimum Gloss Diff on the majority of the current glossy and or satin type photo papers.
The second and more complicated is to use gloss enhancer or GLOP in Epson terms. The cost to the users is much higher than the ink formulation added costs but the lead time is or can be less than ink formulation , especially when it is already done ( case in point: Epson R 1800/1900, Z 3100 series). In the case of the 9180 both would be major changes, ink formulation the lesser, but the lead time for ink formulation is quite long when major revisions are happening.
Canon had a fairly quick turn around in ink formulation, so all things are possible. I doubt that if they choose to go with a ProSumer/entry level pro printer such as the 9180 line, they would add another ink bay and head for only GE. Yet the ball is high in the air, when it lands we'll know.
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The width would have to grow, the guides and bushings have to be increased in size, the tray of course, maybe the pump has to be a tad bit bigger for the ink supply tubes length increase, a few other things too. Yet this doesn't insist a total redo of the 9180 if it were to stay in the current chassis design. IF it were to be a hybrid between a Z and the Photosmart, it would probably be on the bigger size as you need more room for larger or different traction wheels and bearings/stepper motor, to guarantee higher precision in long run feed alignment.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=176392\")
The carts on a printer like that shouldn't be 27 ML, the 69 ML ones usable on the Z3100 and Z2100 are wider but already available in the distribution channels and measure up to the 3800 80 ML carts. My guess 10 carts x 69 ML = 690 ML, acceptable quantity compared to the 3800 9 x 80 = 720 ML. The Canon iPF5100 are loaded with 90 ML carts when new. Cart slot for 10 HP carts will be approx 50 cm 20" wide in that case. Of course they can be placed anywhere with the pump in them.
Still IMHO.
Ernst Dinkla
try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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I agree with Andy, a 24" printer that has a cut sheet carrier and accepts rolls would be ideal. Anyone else feel this way? Jim
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The carts on a printer like that shouldn't be 27 ML, the 69 ML ones usable on the Z3100 and Z2100 are wider but already available in the distribution channels and measure up to the 3800 80 ML carts. My guess 10 carts x 69 ML = 690 ML, acceptable quantity compared to the 3800 9 x 80 = 720 ML.
try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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Yes the starter cartridges that he 24" printers ship with at 69ml are very good to fill the gap between the too big for infrequent printing 130ml, and the too small for production 27/28ml cartridges. IF they put in 10 of them , it's a major overhaul of the ink bays. Could that be the delay???
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I agree with Andy, a 24" printer that has a cut sheet carrier and accepts rolls would be ideal. Anyone else feel this way? Jim
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honestly think they would be able to sell $3000 or $3500 printers to many of us if they just added a cassette on the front of a 24" printer design. If you look at the market for these printers, they are selling to more than photographers. They are selling to photographers, pre press houses, design houses, fine art editions houses, etc etc etc. The market is much bigger than the photo market, that's for sure. I am sure that the market is changing, too. I think a 24" printer is the new 17" printer. We are able to make larger enlargements the more megapixels we have.
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What is ironic is that the HP B9180 seems to have overall better customer satisfaction at the moment over the Z series of printers. I haven't seen any body rushing towards the thought of having a smaller Z3100.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=176393\")
Wrong guess in my opinion. Having a Z3100 I do not see a quality, technical or practical reason why there shouldn't be a scaled down version but only a marketing reason. Adding a third party spectrometer + the software for it will not be a 30% price addition on a model like that but could be 100% more. Nice for offset proof printing but probably too expensive for a wider market. A 17" model has always been a mix between sheet and roll printing, it would be unwise to neglect that. There are nice features for sheet printing on the B9180 + its 1.5 mm media transport but it lacks the gloss enhancer, the one thing that could give it an edge over the competition. Whether the step to 12 inks is worth it is harder to estimate. On fade properties the 8 ink model actually scores better than the 12 ink model and the Canon is considered a big machine for the printing width, 12 channel system + carts occupies space. Canon doesn't have the option to scale the number of channels other than to 6 or 12, Epson is even more fixed with a one head assembly. HP's more modular approach has the flexibility and they will use that advantage in different ways.
Ernst Dinkla
Try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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I heard some dirt about an Epson 3800 that hooked up with a Canon bubble jet fax machine. They didn't get along and created a scene..something about GUI's and paper feed incompatabilities. The Canon was spotted after the brouhaha, sitting on the curb emitting a plaintive wail. The 3800 went back to the bar. Thank you very much.
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I haven't check prices on the iPF5100 recently, but there was a post on DP Review a couple of days ago stating prices had decreased to the $1200-1300 range, probably to be competitive with the Epson 3800. Might be useful to check the current prices if the 5100 is still under consideration.
--John
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$1299 with free shipping and a free roll of paper. It's tempting, but I'm just afraid if I get one I'll end up regretting not saving for a 24" printer. It's a shame there's a $1200 jump in price to the 6100.
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Hello all,
I am also about to spring for a 3800 (and that free P-3000). This has been a great thread to help me decide and I think I'll go ahead and do it as my 2200 has died and if a new printer comes out, it'll be month before I could get my hands on one.
Quick question. Do I need to get inks right away or will the inks that the printer comes with last me awhile? I am not a high volume printer and a set of inks on my 2200 usually last me about a month. I also print primarily matte, does the 3800 come with matte black? Thanks!
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Do I need to get inks right away or will the inks that the printer comes with last me awhile? I am not a high volume printer and a set of inks on my 2200 usually last me about a month. I also print primarily matte, does the 3800 come with matte black? Thanks!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176942\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If 2200 inks last you a month, then 3800 inks will last you a year. Yes, it comes with matte black as well as photo black.
*
Update, since I started this thread: My 3800 arrived yesterday and set up went without a hitch on XP ... this in spite of the fact that the power cord fell out of the socket in my UPS during ink initialization! Main IQ differences compared to the 4000 I'm finding are correct handling of Zone 1 (this used to drive me crazy with the 4000) and profiles that can actually be used for soft-proofing. No pizza wheel tracks so far on RC. Physically, it's a bit of a culture shock going back to the delicate plastic construction, but the $1000 saving makes that easy to bear. ;)
I've been reading Eric Chan's 3800 wiki like a bible, as much since I got the printer as when trying to decide which to buy. Great resource.
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That should be a new FAQ entry: What happens if my power cord falls out during ink initialization? (I guess that shouldn't be too frequently asked ...)
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That should be a new FAQ entry: What happens if my power cord falls out during ink initialization? (I guess that shouldn't be too frequently asked ...)
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If it doesn't finish initialisation, it should attempt to do it again when you power it back on - there is a risk that your ink cartridges will not show the correct ink levels, though, if the printer hasn't written data back to them when it crashes.
And, yes, I know you were joking, Eric :-) (but someone might actually be wondering!)
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Farmer wrote:
If it doesn't finish initialisation, it should attempt to do it again when you power it back on - there is a risk that your ink cartridges will not show the correct ink levels, though, if the printer hasn't written data back to them when it crashes.
Good point.
Unfortunately, I got called away by a family crisis just after the initialization started but before the plug came loose. (That's loose, not lose. ;) So I don't know how far into the charging process the printer got the first time. All I do know is that I was away for about 5 minutes. So the only data point I'd be able to supply is whether a cartridge runs dry while the status panel says there is still ink left. Think I'll pass on that, thank you. ;) Maybe Mister Patrick will be kind enough to deliberately interrupt the initialization when he gets his 3800 then contribute his findings to Eric's wiki. ;)
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Farmer wrote:
Good point.
Unfortunately, I got called away by a family crisis just after the initialization started but before the plug came loose. (That's loose, not lose. So I don't know how far into the charging process the printer got the first time. All I do know is that I was away for about 5 minutes. So the only data point I'd be able to supply is whether a cartridge runs dry while the status panel says there is still ink left. Think I'll pass on that, thank you. Maybe Mister Patrick will be kind enough to deliberately interrupt the initialization when he gets his 3800 then contribute his findings to Eric's wiki.
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If you have carts showing as low (giving a low warning) and you get banding and see losses in the nozzle checks and can't revover with a clean, I'd suggest changing the carts showing as low as they may be running out. You should see that before you run so dry as to be any real problem.
Also, if you have carts that low and get any sort of error, contact support and if they tell you it's pressure related or cart related, change the low carts as they may actually be empty or close to it.
Just a guess :-)
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Hello all,
I am also about to spring for a 3800 (and that free P-3000). This has been a great thread to help me decide and I think I'll go ahead and do it as my 2200 has died and if a new printer comes out, it'll be month before I could get my hands on one.
Quick question. Do I need to get inks right away or will the inks that the printer comes with last me awhile? I am not a high volume printer and a set of inks on my 2200 usually last me about a month. I also print primarily matte, does the 3800 come with matte black? Thanks!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176942\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If there is a 3800 replacement I don't see how the output could get much better...maybe a little bit...but not by much. I'd say go for it now as times a wasting to print and get that P-3000 for free also.
I purchased my 4800 and inks from itsupplies.com they are an excellent company to buy from.
Printer comes with glossy and matte black inks...the rest of the inks are for both matte and glossy papers.
Inks will last a while for you...no need to buy a full set right away.
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Johnny V wrote:
I don't see how the output could get much better
Concur! Main thing for me is saying good riddance to ruddy metamerism.
I took two printouts of a test image from Digital Outback (based on the Bill Atkinson RGB image) to work. This image has a grey scale ramp, the four polychrome children's faces, etc. One of the prints was done on my previous 4000, using the original UltraChrome ink set. The other on the 3800, using the K3 ink set. In my cubicle, which is entirely lit by office fluorescents, the 4000 print shows a sickly purple-pink cast. It's not even subtle - the grey scale is more of a mauve scale. ;) - but its even more obvious when comparing it to the print from the 3800, which remains perfectly neutral. Yet take the same two prints over to a window and they magically become identical twins.
I'm also noticing improvement in deep shadow colour handling - black to near-black - plus, pure hues like yellow, red, blue, and green are definitely more saturated. Haven't really tested for this yet, but I think I'm seeing some of the benefit of the improved dither; some indication that one could print a given image maybe 10% or 15% larger before detail starts to break down.
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..I don't see how the output could get much better...[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177151\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Try better paper handling! I moved away from the 3800 primarily because of ink splotches near the end of fine art cut sheets. With the 3800's lack of a vacuum system to keep paper flat, this is a big challenge. Increasing the platen gap helps, but does not eliminate the issue.
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Phil Brown wrote:
If you have carts showing as low (giving a low warning) and you get banding and see losses in the nozzle checks and can't revover with a clean, I'd suggest changing the carts showing as low as they may be running out. You should see that before you run so dry as to be any real problem.
Thanks! I had been planning simply to replace carts from the initial set as they dropped down to may the 1/8th level. Good to know I can push a little further.
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Phil Brown wrote:
Thanks! I had been planning simply to replace carts from the initial set as they dropped down to may the 1/8th level. Good to know I can push a little further.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177219\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Under normal circumstances, of course, you wait until they say they're empty but I reckon you were on the right track to be wary of them this time around due to the interupted initialisation.