Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: mcfoto on February 06, 2008, 07:21:35 am
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Hi
I found MR comments interesting about this year especially MFD & that 22mp is on the way out? But who will survive in the next year? What do you think.
Denis
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hi Denis,
where? Sorry did not find.
Thierry
Hi
I found MR comments interesting about this year especially MFD & that 22mp is on the way out? But who will survive in the next year? What do you think.
Denid
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172685\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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It's in here
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/tea-leaves.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/tea-leaves.shtml)
More interesting is what happened to the MF/Canon comparison/test whatever hinted at in the Hy6 review.
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It looks at the moment as if that studio comparison will not see appear. The reason is simply that my associate, who was working on it with me, had an almost month-long shooting assignment immediately afterward, then came the holidays, other writing priorities, and now a major trip to Asia that begins next week.
If it appears it won't be until some time in March I'm afraid.
Michael
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It looks at the moment as if that studio comparison will not see appear. The reason is simply that my associate, who was working on it with me, had an almost month-long shooting assignment immediately afterward, then came the holidays, other writing priorities, and now a major trip to Asia that begins next week.
If it appears it won't be until some time in March I'm afraid.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172696\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks for the info Michael.
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Hi
I found MR comments interesting about this year especially MFD & that 22mp is on the way out?[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172685\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well Id prefer a 1600 ISO 22mp MFDB to a 39mp especially if it was $10k or less - and I would prefer it to a canon
As for the 'compact race getting silly' well I dont know any compact camera that can rival the look of a good scan from my contax T2 yet or my great uncles leica from 1950 that I inherited !
S
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Thanks for YOUR info, Stefan!
Thierry
Thanks for the info Michael.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172701\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Very interesting article.
Here's what I wrote on the thread about Sony's new sensor, and I stand over it:
"This confirms my view that the market will soon divide between high-end DSLRs on one side and only the best MFDBs (by which I mean multi-shot and lots of pixels) on the other. All the in-between MFDBs are dead in the water, new or second-hand, in my view."
I note that Michael coyly avoided speculating as to who he thinks will fall by the wayside.
As I imply above, I believe that Hasselblad and Sinar (because of their multi-shot technology amongst other things) will be two of those left standing, at least.
I certainly hope so! I shoot mostly fine art catalogues and multi-shot is now regarded pretty much the museum and gallery standard worldwide. In addition, I'm about to take delivery of a Hassie 39Mp MS, so they'd better hang around!
D.
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The warm blanket feeling that should comfort us all is that the current high end gear from Canon, Nikon and digital back companies along with the remaining MF cameras on the market have the huge potential of providing the same quality we see today to years from now, regardless of which manufacturers are still standing.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172735\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Asuming 60mp backs are annouced from later this year and 39mp or so becomes the new MF "entry level". One has to ask, who really needs more than 39mp? Who "needs" 60mp because 39mp just doesn't cut it?
I am already a generation behind with a 22mp MF camera that can produce detailed 24 x 36" prints, so I am in no rush to move up a gear. And as you imply, if we get off the ridiculous merrygoround and step back for a moment, I suspect most of us would be better off spending our time on photography and not spending more money on the diminishing returns of the "new, improved" kit that the manufacturers have to persade us to buy for their own, not our, reasons.
Quentin
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And as you imply, if we get off the ridiculous merrygoround and step back for a moment, I suspect most of us would be better off spending our time on photography and not spending more money on the diminishing returns of the "new, improved" kit that the manufacturers have to persade us to buy for their own, not our, reasons.
Quentin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172744\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I totally agree. Last week I shot 50 sheets of 4x5 on my 30 year old Sinar P for one of my museum clients.
I sincerely hope that I won't have reason to upgrade the Hasselblad for a long time.
D.
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I didn't realize this was being talked about here, I posted this initially on the about this site section, anyway, here goes:
Michael, I strongly disagree with your assessment that lower pixel count digital backs are becoming irrelevant because the pixel count increases of digital SLR's. As you say earlier in your article, it's about time people stop worrying about pixel counts and start thinking about quality and in that regard digital backs give a very different look than a DSLR. A 22 MP DSLR is about as different from a 22MP digital back as a 16MP DSLR is from a back, it's not the pixel count that you get a back for (though it can be useful) it's the different look. I'd be surprised if you didn't agree.
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Well Id prefer a 1600 ISO 22mp MFDB to a 39mp especially if it was $10k or less - and I would prefer it to a canon
+1
Lack of high ISO capability is the only thing which lets MFDBs down for me, otherwise I could and would use them for everything (I don't do sports photography).
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Hi
I think Phase One will still be here because they are the leaders in long exposure ( one hour ) & this sets them apart from the rest of the MFD makers. How they work with Mamiya is going to be interesting. I still think Phase could rework the ZD camera & make a ZDII verson. If done well this could compete with the DSLR market if priced well. A 39 MP chip would be a must due to the 22-24 mp in the DSLR market. I also feel that Hasselblad is in good shape as they have branded themselves well & are big in the rental market. With the Hy6 I think this camera will also grow in the rental market. Having shot with all three cameras I feel the Hy6 is the best body on the market, there view finder is amazing! The one advantage Mamiya has is a low price point except for there new lenses & they do have a 28mm that works with any MFD back that fits the AFD. I am looking forward to the new Mamiya body which will be shown next month.
Denis
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One has to ask, who really needs more than 39mp? Who "needs" 60mp because 39mp just doesn't cut it? [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172744\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Aditionally one must consider - who can actually shoot 60mp of actual resolution
-no one handheld at below 500/s for sure
one will just be able to see shake misfocussing and lense problems better
The MF makers need to skip resolution worries and get thier usability up
I love my D3 - the screen - the live view - the in camera jpgs, the ISO, the 28 shift lens, the 1.4 lenses
The fact that I have almost had to stop carrying lights on simple assigments !
The last thing I worry about with my Blad and 22mp is the resolution
The blad does of course have its place - the look - the synch speed
There has been minimal comment on Mark Tucker binning his MF kit (see the FS section) - surely a year ago this would have occupied millions of pixels of chatter
S
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Do we as photographers make rational decisions when buying gear? Are we not always looking for the extra something wether we need it or not. I keep deciding I'm going to get a MF back, I think the files look wonderful etc. But like today would I of got the variety I got with a MFB if I had used that and not a 1DsmkII, probably not, I still intend to get a MFB even though the "35mm" style of camera better fits in with most of my work. Have I figured out how to make the extra money spent into extra profit? nope, I can't see how I can.
I just need to be somewhere with a good deal on a MFB when my heart is ruling my head and I'll buy one, would I buy 60mp, yep!
I'm a photographer that's what I do.
Kevin.
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There has been minimal comment on Mark Tucker binning his MF kit (see the FS section) - surely a year ago this would have occupied millions of pixels of chatter
S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172772\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I was astonished by the almost silence regarding the above mentioned as well.
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I was astonished by the almost silence regarding the above mentioned as well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172776\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I thought about it too when I saw the for sale add posted..... But hasn't he gone back and forth a few times with cameras and platforms? Wish he was still a member here and that he'd give us his rationale for the switch.
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Im not really sure sure why these discussions come up.... 35mm and mf are 2 totally different formats. Each will always have its place, besides based on everthing ive seen most 35mm lenses are out resolved by the 21mp sensor on the 1ds3, and why does everyone suddenly care about sony? seriously the mp race is getting absolutely stupid.
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I was astonished by the almost silence regarding the above mentioned as well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172776\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think what Mark chooses to own is only relevant to people who shoot in the same or similar style. Mark's stuff is great but he doesn't need a back to shoot it. 35mm is fine. He doesn't need the resolution and he doesn't need the lenses/look unless he wants it. He can also rent anything he wants or needs for a shoot, so who is to say what he is actually shooting with as opposed to owning.
If landscape, arch., product, highend fashion, and beauty photogs were selling of their Phase/Sinar/Leaf/Hass backs, then there would be serious discussions with people devoting much to much time to the "debate".
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I think what Mark chooses to own is only relevant to people who shoot in the same or similar style. Mark's stuff is great but he doesn't need a back to shoot it. 35mm is fine. He doesn't need the resolution and he doesn't need the lenses/look unless he wants it. He can also rent anything he wants or needs for a shoot, so who is to say what he is actually shooting with as opposed to owning.
If landscape, arch., product, highend fashion, and beauty photogs were selling of their Phase/Sinar/Leaf/Hass backs, then there would be serious discussions with people devoting much to much time to the "debate".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172811\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Exactly. Thank you for writing that I so I had to type less.
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I was astonished by the almost silence regarding the above mentioned as well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172776\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I believe you are talking about Tim Tucker?
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Deleted
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Yup, Mark Tucker.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=172834\")
Are you just making things up? Or what?
The guy selling the stuff mentioned above posted this link:
[a href=\"http://timtuckerphotography.com/]http://timtuckerphotography.com/[/url]
Either Mark's on here playing games, or you guys are fantasizing.
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I'll take one of each:
-9 micron 22MP, 70 frames per minute (a la Aptus 54), amazing high I.S.O. performance (a la Nikon D3).
-9 micron 56x56 1-4-16shot, 50 frames per minute.
Each should have a video camcorder-type flip-out swivel 3" screen (Nikon D3 quality).
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Deleted.
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I'm pretty happy that with whatever system over 22MP I could use my work for 97% of the possible usages and now again could concentrate 100% on producing interesting, telling images again.
Personally I don't need more – not for fine art, fashion, magazine covers or advertising or whatever.
If a client wants/needs more MP then there is more money in the pot so that I can easily rent gear. Everybody should use the equipment that suits him best. I mean, images are what it is all about.
Personally I'm pretty happy that the upgrade rat race is over or slowing down. It had to be like that the past years because the quality was still to bad compared to film. But here we are - more or less!
I personally prefer MF for many reasons that have been named here several times so I don't want to repeat this. But I can absolutely understand if the work of somebody is demanding the use of a dslr. And maybe he produces more touching and beautiful images with his 10mp nikon, than I ever will with my back.
I also know a few HiHigh Fashion PGs who only use a 1DSMKII and produce fantastic images with it. Somebody told me even Testino shot something with a 1. And I also would bet that a lot of superstars worry more "what and how" rather than "with what" they shoot.
Just my two copper coins.
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don't think there is a real need for higher MP...
but I am almost sure it will happen...
Look at your spam mail box and what you'll find is that size matter... bigger better tool... just that will be enough...
and if the race stop in MF I would like to see how my client with a 25MP P&S camera would react if he figure out that I shoot with a 22 MP or less...
yesterday I was watching 'How it is made' and it was about the CCD sensor in photography, Dalsa plant was the one filmed, with a ZD displayed actually. and I hear about 1xx MP sensor. But my dog barked at that time and I could get how MP exactly neither if it was for photographic equipment...
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My Leica M8 is a lot sharper than my Phase One p45+ when shooting handheld below 1/500 second. Anything higher than 39 MP will be for tripod users, a.k.a. landscape, nature and product photogs, just like 4x5 back in the day. Just my opinion.
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My Leica M8 is a lot sharper than my Phase One p45+ when shooting handheld below 1/500 second. Anything higher than 39 MP will be for tripod users, a.k.a. landscape, nature and product photogs, just like 4x5 back in the day. Just my opinion.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172881\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Just wondering what camera are you using with the phase? I can get sharp pics from my Rollei 6008 at 1/60 without trouble and 1/30 on many occasions provided I use the mirror up. Actually I can do better with my rollei than I can with my leica DMR or Canon 5D.
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Don't get me wrong, the P45+ is much, much sharper and higher resolving, obviously, than the Leica M8, however I know that in order to get the ultimate sharpness I need to use a tripod with the mirror up function. I am using a Mamiya AFD II mostly with 120mm Macro, I also use Schnieder digital 120mm macro and 4x5 camera. http://www.p45plus.typepad.com (http://www.p45plus.typepad.com)
Just wondering what camera are you using with the phase? I can get sharp pics from my Rollei 6008 at 1/60 without trouble and 1/30 on many occasions provided I use the mirror up. Actually I can do better with my rollei than I can with my leica DMR or Canon 5D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172884\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I think we need a section for Tucker Stalkers in the MFDB area...
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How many? in my point of view, none will be gone by next year. I sincerely agree with Michael just about every time, but not this time.
PhaseOne is the technological leader of this niche (I hate this term). And now closely working with Mamiya, they will only get more atractive for a wide gamma of photogs in every level of expertise and budget power. They are not going.
Hasselblad is the commercial leader in digital medium format. Totally surrounded by immense marketing and the best support. They are not going either.
Leaf, Sinar, Rollei and F&H just invested in a new system that defies Hasselblad's own guts. If I had to think about who's at stake, it would be LSRF&H. Their new system is amazing but horribly expensive. but in a world where a company like Yahoo is worth the GNP of 20 countries, 10K usd entrance fee (film) can be money change for some and a few more. So, I think they will succeed and will get profitable in short.
Who else? Digital medium format Fuji is in crio, dmf Pentax is sleeping a long winter in Transilvania.
Those gone will be missed. Those alive today will be here for the next 50 years, at least.
Eduardo
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...
yesterday I was watching 'How it is made' and it was about the CCD sensor in photography, Dalsa plant was the one filmed, with a ZD displayed actually. and I hear about 1xx MP sensor. But my dog barked at that time and I could get how MP exactly neither if it was for photographic equipment...
Hi,
look here:
http://www.photoscala.de/node/1838 (http://www.photoscala.de/node/1838)
GOOGLE Translation:
"The Canadian company DALSA is managed according to its own figures, the world's first image sensor with a resolution of more than 100 million pixels to produce. He remains, however, the science reserved
How DALSA in a press release dated 19 June 2006 commodities, it is the company managed to a CCD with 100 million pixels, and thus far the highest resolution image sensor in the world to produce. He was sent to the client Semiconductor Technology Associates (STA) in San Juan Capistrano, California, delivered.
The active area of the CCD measures approximately 10x10 inches and has a resolution of 10.560x10.560 pixels (111 megapixels). STA has this chip for Astro Division of the American Naval Observatory (Astrometry Department of the US Naval Observatory - USNO). He is the USNO in the determination of position and careers of stars and solar systems and in the celestial reference help."
Greetings
Adina
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Those alive today will be here for the next 50 years, at least.
Eduardo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172924\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I doubt any of the current players will be around either at all or in their current form in 50 years.
Michael is right, there will be more changes over the next few years. The MF digital market is vanishingly small and highly competitive. It will soon be smaller still.
Quentin
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Gidday,
What I would like to see is a 6x7cm chip.
So my Mamiya RZ would be full frame and my Mamiya 645 AFD II could take advantage of the sweet spot.
Now that would be awesome.
Cheers
Simon
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Dear Eduardo,
Check the published prices: not any more expensive than the other comparable system available.
Best regards,
Thierry
Leaf, Sinar, Rollei and F&H just invested in a new system that defies Hasselblad's own guts. If I had to think about who's at stake, it would be LSRF&H. Their new system is amazing but horribly expensive.
Eduardo
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172924\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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nothing new Adina, it was announced in June '06 and well known.
Thierry
Hi,
look here:
http://www.photoscala.de/node/1838 (http://www.photoscala.de/node/1838)
GOOGLE Translation:
"The Canadian company DALSA is managed according to its own figures, the world's first image sensor with a resolution of more than 100 million pixels to produce. He remains, however, the science reserved
How DALSA in a press release dated 19 June 2006 commodities, it is the company managed to a CCD with 100 million pixels, and thus far the highest resolution image sensor in the world to produce. He was sent to the client Semiconductor Technology Associates (STA) in San Juan Capistrano, California, delivered.
The active area of the CCD measures approximately 10x10 inches and has a resolution of 10.560x10.560 pixels (111 megapixels). STA has this chip for Astro Division of the American Naval Observatory (Astrometry Department of the US Naval Observatory - USNO). He is the USNO in the determination of position and careers of stars and solar systems and in the celestial reference help."
Greetings
Adina
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172927\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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If I had to think about who's at stake, it would be LSRF&H.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172924\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, Leaf is owned by Kodak - a company with sales of around $10 billion.
Sinar is owned by Jenoptik, which has sales of around $700 million.
I believe Hasselblad is owned by Shriro which has annual sales of around $400 million
The financially vulnerable players are Phase and Mamiya, afaik.
Mamiya is owned by Cosmos Scientific Systems (anyone have sales figures?)
Phase One is management owned.
As long as they can turn a profit, they should be fine but if there are tough times ahead, these companies may be the first to be forced to close down.
Phase is doubly fragile because they rely on another company to produce cameras to work with their backs. Mamiya is the only such producer left, and they can close the door on Phase at any time.
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Phase is doubly fragile because they rely on another company to produce cameras to work with their backs. Mamiya is the only such producer left, and they can close the door on Phase at any time.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172939\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Close the door on phase? Did you miss the fact that they've joined forces or something? Man, you guys are some silly ***** with your wild speculations.
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Close the door on phase? Did you miss the fact that they've joined forces or something? Man, you guys are some silly ***** with your wild speculations.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172946\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It wasn't a prediction or speculation, it was just a statement of fact. Any business partnership can change.
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It wasn't a prediction or speculation, it was just a statement of fact. Any business partnership can change.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172947\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hasselblad & Imcon worked together, then there was one, Sinar & Jenoptic worked together, now Jenoptic is the majority shareholder.
Maybe Phase will buy Mamiya, or Mamiya buy Phase? If they need to work together to remain in the market, ownership my not make any difference, except that if all the money is in the back, Mamiya might not be happy.
David
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SO there are three major forces right now - Hasselblad, F&HLS, and Mamiya/Phase. How much more consolidation could REALLY happen?
Hasselblad - has made it clear what they think of their customers in recent months by axing support for H1 and H2, and their sights are clearly set on a digital-only future. Those of you with shiny new H3Ds and H3DIIs...how long before an H4D comes along and they pull the plug on supporting your rig?
F&H, Sinar, Leaf - seems Thierry is the only person who think their equipment is in line with the rest of the competition. Sorry, Thierry, but the prices I have seen in the US don't jive. Bottom line is, a new system at a higher price point = a gamble. This conglomerate will need to focus on strengthening its existing customer base and leveraging its existing relationships within the professional photographic community if it wants to keep its head above water.
Mamiya/Phase - They had no choice to but to pair up given the circumstances But this duo, to me it seems, offers the most bang for the buck. Mamiya had the foresight to see a need to introduce a MF rig at a pricepoint that would be attractive to those shooting FF 35mm. They also realized they needed to support their existing customer base, hence the separate ZD back. Phase One has always supported Mamiya, and is the only company that still offers open support for multiple systems. As long as Mamiya keeps focusing on breaking with convention, and Phase continues to innovate, they're not going anywhere.
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It wasn't a prediction or speculation, it was just a statement of fact. Any business partnership can change.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172947\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Oh please, they both need each other equally much so that's not gonna happen. Mamiya is the most sold medium format camera brand in the world, and Phase the most sold back, so if anyone is going out of business it's sinar. But I don't really see anyone of the few players left closing down anytime soon. The market has more or less stabilized IMO.
And the statement that 22MP backs are useless now that there are SLRs with the same amount of MP makes me laugh my ass off. 'Nuff said.
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Thank you for your confidence in this brand, but please don't speculate too much.
Thierry
... so if anyone is going out of business it's sinar.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172991\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thank you for your confidence in this brand, but please don't speculate too much.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172993\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Like I said, I DON'T think anyone is going out of business, I'm just saying that out of all the brands of digital backs Sinar has the least amount of users. Or am I wrong? Anyway, this is a ridiculous discussion from the start.
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yes, it is ridiculous.
You seem to forget: Sinar has the largest system, from LF to MF, with MFDBs, lenses and accessories, and has the largest LF installed base.
Thierry
Like I said, I DON'T think anyone is going out of business, I'm just saying that out of all the brands of digital backs Sinar has the least amount of users. Or am I wrong? Anyway, this is a ridiculous discussion from the start.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172996\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Phase is doubly fragile because they rely on another company to produce cameras to work with their backs. Mamiya is the only such producer left, and they can close the door on Phase at any time.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172939\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
All the back makers rely on other companies for cameras. For Hasselblad it's Fuji, for Sinar and Leaf it's F&H. Pretty much the same deal with chips. I'd say they are all fragile as even those owned by larger entities can be cut loose at any time. I don't have numbers but I think Phase has the largest installed base by quite a bit which is the most important business advantage.
I think Canon is the only truly integrated manufacturer capable of doing everything in house.
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Oh please, they both need each other equally much so that's not gonna happen.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172991\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Have you forgotten the Mamiya ZD? Mamiya is in direct competition with Phase because it also sells digital backs. I'm certain that the only reason Mamiya hasn't closed the door on Phase is because they just don't have the capital to R&D a series of higher performance backs and compete with Phase's entire product line. Remember how long it took them to get the ZD out?
There are many Mamiya users out there. Must be tempting for Mamiya to bring out a new camera with a proprietary mount for their own backs, and have that entire user base to themselves. Perhaps that's what Cosmo planned to do with the platform when they bought it a few years ago. Who knows. It's certainly an opportunity waiting to be siezed.
Phase needs Mamiya but not vice versa.
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I think Canon is the only truly integrated manufacturer capable of doing everything in house.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173006\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Where do you draw the line? Canon sources many components from different suppliers too. Perhaps not the glass for the lenses or the sensor chip itself, but plenty of other parts. No-one builds anything 100% from raw materials.
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Have you forgotten the Mamiya ZD? Mamiya is in direct competition with Phase because it also sells digital backs. I'm certain that the only reason Mamiya hasn't closed the door on Phase is because they just don't have the capital to R&D a series of higher performance backs and compete with Phase's entire product line. Remember how long it took them to get the ZD out?
There are many Mamiya users out there. Must be tempting for Mamiya to bring out a new camera with a proprietary mount for their own backs, and have that entire user base to themselves. Perhaps that's what Cosmo planned to do with the platform when they bought it a few years ago. Who knows.
Phase needs Mamiya but not vice versa.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173011\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I find the ZD back quite compelling myself, and wonder about a medium format 'shakeout' removing all the low end (22MP) players. The price point of their back is drastically lower than anyone elses. Yes, I know a 1DSIII would have compable resolution, but a 645 format camera is not the same as a 35mm format camera. I'd rather do my shooting with a ZD over a 1D.
There were a couple key reasons I didn't choose it, but I think the ZD at it's price point is really viable. Then again, maybe everyone in this group is just twisted from spending so much money on our tools.
Regardless of any of this. I recently purchased a MFDB. It was expensive, and a couple years down the road better cheaper equipment will exist. So what. The work I do today is on as good of equipment as I need, and I don't want to spend the next 2 years shooting sub-par files while waiting for that to come along. I don't expect my digital equipment to last forever, I just want it to provide me brilliant files that help me succeed in my goals. If that happens, who cares about anything else?
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Have you forgotten the Mamiya ZD? Mamiya is in direct competition with Phase because it also sells digital backs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173011\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not any more it isn't. Remember Mamiya was recently in trouble and the ZD back was threatened. Mamiya and Phase are a perfect fit. It may or may not last forever, but for the foreseeable future, Mamiya get support and technology from Phase, and Phase get access to the most widely used medium format platform and an essential outlet for their products
The ZD is already in production and once the Mamiya commitment to buy Dalsa chips for it is at an end they can decide on their next move - could be a Mamiya branded entry level Phase produced back, for example.
Quentin
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"Have you forgotten the Mamiya ZD? Mamiya is in direct competition with Phase because it also sells digital backs. I'm certain that the only reason Mamiya hasn't closed the door on Phase is because they just don't have the capital to R&D a series of higher performance backs and compete with Phase's entire product line. Remember how long it took them to get the ZD out?
There are many Mamiya users out there. Must be tempting for Mamiya to bring out a new camera with a proprietary mount for their own backs, and have that entire user base to themselves. Perhaps that's what Cosmo planned to do with the platform when they bought it a few years ago. Who knows. It's certainly an opportunity waiting to be siezed.
Phase needs Mamiya but not vice versa."
I don't think so. The ZD does not compete with Phase or any of the big boys in the new, never owned market. Even in the used/refurb market, most commercial photogs would choose an A17 or a P21 over a ZD. The advantage of the ZD is price, and the price is, I suspect, artificially low. I suspect that the ZD price is a little over cost of materials and perhaps labor and does not include recovery of any R&D costs. These costs were born by Mamiya's previous owners.
I also think that Mamiya's user base would dump their AFd's for Blad's or F&H products if the only back we could use would be Mamiya's own. I'd rather have an H3D-22 than an AFd with a ZD back. I believe that much of the remainder of the user base feels the same way.
I don't know if Mamiya plans on releasing any other backs. Perhaps they want to compete, maybe they will. Maybe Phase will help them out with a ZDII at 33 mpix., who knows. I think the money is there from Cosmo, but really, would you want to enter a market crowded with established, successful competitors with few buyers? The smart money says NO. It would be smarter to compete for 1ds2/3 users who don't need a sports camera and don't shoot commercially. Just my thoughts, I could be totally off base.
There is also the issue of selling bodies and lenses. The new lenses are amazing, but without a competitive back to take advantage of these new optics, who's buying? To shoot film? To use the ZD back that can't be used in a commercial environment? They need Phase and Leaf and Sinar and even Hasselblad back to fit the AFd mount to sell lenses and new bodies. Thus Mamiya needs Phase, and the other back makers, very much. Due to a lack of a proprietary body, Phase also needs mamiya.
OK, I'm done for the week.
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I also think that Mamiya's user base would dump their AFd's for Blad's or F&H products if the only back we could use would be Mamiya's own. I'd rather have an H3D-22 than an AFd with a ZD back. I believe that much of the remainder of the user base feels the same way.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173052\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sure, I think most everyone would agree with that, but its just not a fair comparison. If I want to go into B&H today and buy a 22MP 'kit' the H3D22 is going for $25,000, the ZD kit is going for $10,000. That is 2.5x the price, this pricing discrepancy also extends to most lenses.
Maybe I am just distorted by working in a small market where I cannot charge NY/LA/SF prices, but 15k in my pocket is very compelling. Would my (or yours, or anyones) work be drastically different with these 2 tools?
So, yes, it may be 'artificially low' pricing, but so what. What is so wrong with the ZD back that it's the red headed stepchild of the MFDB world? Why is there no place for a reasonably affordable 645 chipped dslr solution? Why can the zd back not be used in a commercial environment? I'm not trying to be an ass... I just think that I must be missing some huge problem with the zd back?
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Interesting thread - but going back for a moment to what started this thread, the tea leaves article.... Just how many of you now shooting MFD would switch to a high pixel count DSLR? Got to be easier to use with great fast and accurate AF, superior flash eTTL, lighter weight kit and of course the promise of cost savings? Come on, what's holding you back?
Me? With purchase of the Rollei 6008 / p20 just last fall I'm moving the other way. I don't need a ton of pixels but sure appreciate the greater DR and the look of the image I can get with my MF system. The DR is improved with the 1Ds3 but still about 1.5-2 stops less than my old P20 and from what I have read about the new Sony sensor its not going to have only 12bits not 14bit or 16bit processing so it will probably also have less DR. Still the physical properties of a larger film plane change the way the images look and I don't think even if the 1Ds4 has improved DR it will be able to completely replace MF.
Now to pricing.... well if I want to upgrade my system now I can buy a p45+ and have it fit for my camera or I can switch platforms and buy a p45+/mamiya system with free lens, or I can buy a new Hy6 with 33mpix back all apparently within 10% of the same price. My point here is that prices all seem on par so I wouldn't think that will knock out F&H or Sinar or Leaf.
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I hate, no that's not a strong enough word, I loathe the 35 mm format proportions. For me I find that 95% of the time nothing fits well within it and so no, it would take a lot for me to go back to that dreadful aspect ratio.
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Sure, I think most everyone would agree with that, but its just not a fair comparison. If I want to go into B&H today and buy a 22MP 'kit' the H3D22 is going for $25,000, the ZD kit is going for $10,000. That is 2.5x the price, this pricing discrepancy also extends to most lenses.
Maybe I am just distorted by working in a small market where I cannot charge NY/LA/SF prices, but 15k in my pocket is very compelling. Would my (or yours, or anyones) work be drastically different with these 2 tools?
So, yes, it may be 'artificially low' pricing, but so what. What is so wrong with the ZD back that it's the red headed stepchild of the MFDB world? Why is there no place for a reasonably affordable 645 chipped dslr solution? Why can the zd back not be used in a commercial environment? I'm not trying to be an ass... I just think that I must be missing some huge problem with the zd back?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173057\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
B&H list prices are for Europeans with their valuable Euros. They don't cary stock of H3Ds. Go to a dealer and get an H3D (not the H3DII) that is either old stock or demo, and you can get it for MUCH less than $20k. So much less, that you couldn't buy a Nikon D3 with the difference.
I looked at a ZD and ruled it out for several reasons. First and foremost, the shadows were off in every sample file I saw and in the one I was loaned by Allkit. Secondly, it crapped out on me twice when shooting tethered. Third, I shoot slowly and I was hitting the buffer. I could shoot more slowly, but why? Fourth, is there an upgrade path? Not that I can tell. Fifth, is there support? Not like with the other back makers. I know I can call Lance at Capture Integration almost 24/7 if I have a problem with my Phase. These issues make it a non-starter for me. Fine art, personal projects, sure. The files do look really nice, and the shadow problems can be hidden in post. But for commercial and magazine work, its a no go.
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I hate, no that's not a strong enough word, I loathe the 35 mm format proportions. For me I find that 95% of the time nothing fits well within it and so no, it would take a lot for me to go back to that dreadful aspect ratio.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173068\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The loathing for the 35mm aspect ratio, the burning hate I feel in my heart, is what keeps me warm all winter in NYC. So awful in portrait, long and skinny, you end up cropping away those AA filtered pixels to fit something onto a page.
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Sure, I think most everyone would agree with that, but its just not a fair comparison. If I Why can the zd back not be used in a commercial environment? I'm not trying to be an ass... I just think that I must be missing some huge problem with the zd back?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173057\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well of course it can and is, and moreover you'd not be able to tell the difference for almost any conceivable use, but if you'd just spent 2.5 times its price on an alternative 22mp solution, you'd need to justify that to yourself and to others, wouldn't you
Quentin
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Well of course it can and is, and moreover you'd not be able to tell the difference for almost any conceivable use, but if you'd just spent 2.5 times its price on an alternative 22mp solution, you'd need to justify that to yourself and to others, wouldn't you
Quentin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173076\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Its not that the ZD can't be used for commercial work, but it is not really suitable for the commercial work I do. Aside from the shadow problems that seem to pop up from time to time, image quality is excellent. If you work slowly without clients looking over your shoulder or at a monitor, then it is a great value.
I personally can justify the extra expense for a Phase back: peace of mind. I'm confident that it will shoot tethered without fail. I am also confident enough that I would use it to shoot store displays for my more demanding and better paying clients. When I've shot their displays, they pay me my day rate to stand around at the lab while the images are sent through post and printed on a lightjet at actual size. The AD and CD stand around under different lighting conditions (simulated day light, tungsten and flourescent) and examine the print with a magnifying glass for sharpness and color. My more delicate parts shrink deep into my body while this is going on/ In the past I rented Leaf A75 backs or Phase P30 backs and I was still nervous. I wouldn't even shoot the job with a ZD, not because it couldn't perform, but I wouldn't have the confidence to stand there without feinting, what with the odd and intermittent shadow problems. But this is me and my usage. Everyone is different.
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I personally can justify the extra expense for a Phase back: peace of mind. I'm confident that it will shoot tethered without fail. I am also confident enough that I would use it to shoot store displays for my more demanding and better paying clients. When I've shot their displays, they pay me my day rate to stand around at the lab while the images are sent through post and printed on a lightjet at actual size. The AD and CD stand around under different lighting conditions (simulated day light, tungsten and flourescent) and examine the print with a magnifying glass for sharpness and color. My more delicate parts shrink deep into my body while this is going on/ In the past I rented Leaf A75 backs or Phase P30 backs and I was still nervous. I wouldn't even shoot the job with a ZD, not because it couldn't perform, but I wouldn't have the confidence to stand there without feinting, what with the odd and intermittent shadow problems. But this is me and my usage. Everyone is different.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173092\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I agree with you 100%, for your uses and your clients one of the big backs from phase, leaf or blad is the way to go. I think that you are not a target ZD audience though.
I think the point that I was trying to make, and it took me filling the internet with my inane chatter to get there, is that I do not agree with Michael about the shakeout. I think *for some photographers* the concept of a lower cost, ~22mp 645 back is a fantastic thing. I think that although the ZD may have flaws it is a solid product idea, and one that will remain viable for a while. The idea of 'entry level MFDB'. Michaels argument is that high end 35mm will take that entire segment over.
Giving the industry a couple of years, I could see these lower end MFDBs getting rid of their flaws, and costing very similar if not less than the highest end 35mm cams. I for one find that appealing.
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The AD and CD stand around under different lighting conditions (simulated day light, tungsten and flourescent) and examine the print with a magnifying glass for sharpness and color.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173092\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
OK, I have a question...
What the hell is an AD or CD doing looking over your shoulder in the first place! YOU'RE the photographer...what do they hope to achieve other than pure intimidation? If they have such little trust in your ability to deliver, something's not right.
I've shot for several high profile clients and it is well understood that the only persons allowed on the shoot are the photographer (me), my assistant(s), and occasionally a studio tech or studio manager.
Having an AD on site only opens you up to potential problems (like the AD changing his mind from what was already agreed upon in the contract you made him sign).
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SO there are three major forces right now - Hasselblad, F&HLS, and Mamiya/Phase. How much more consolidation could REALLY happen?
Hasselblad - has made it clear what they think of their customers in recent months by axing support for H1 and H2, and their sights are clearly set on a digital-only future. Those of you with shiny new H3Ds and H3DIIs...how long before an H4D comes along and they pull the plug on supporting your rig?
F&H, Sinar, Leaf - seems Thierry is the only person who think their equipment is in line with the rest of the competition. Sorry, Thierry, but the prices I have seen in the US don't jive. Bottom line is, a new system at a higher price point = a gamble. This conglomerate will need to focus on strengthening its existing customer base and leveraging its existing relationships within the professional photographic community if it wants to keep its head above water.
Mamiya/Phase - They had no choice to but to pair up given the circumstances But this duo, to me it seems, offers the most bang for the buck. Mamiya had the foresight to see a need to introduce a MF rig at a pricepoint that would be attractive to those shooting FF 35mm. They also realized they needed to support their existing customer base, hence the separate ZD back. Phase One has always supported Mamiya, and is the only company that still offers open support for multiple systems. As long as Mamiya keeps focusing on breaking with convention, and Phase continues to innovate, they're not going anywhere.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=172989\")
What you are saying about Hasselblad dropping support for the H1/H2 could not be more incorrect. With the Hasselblad Customer Care Program, Hasselblad has committed in writing to supporting H1/H2 cameras for years, and that is regardless of whose back is attached. See below:
"Under the Extended Service Option, in addition to standard Hasselblad service policies, you are guaranteed service and spare parts for all H1 and H2 products for a minimum of 10 years from the date of purchase. It also includes a product renewal/replacement guarantee for 5 years from time of purchase covering catastrophic situations where your camera is lost, stolen or damaged beyond repair.
The Trade-up Program allows all existing H1 and H2 camera owners to trade up to one of a variety of the most recent model configurations for a special price.
Please note that the Trade-up Program also includes very favorable trade-up options for owners of H1 and H2 cameras and third party digital backs.
The Refurbishment Program provides a factory check of the camera body consisting of maintenance and cleaning as well as repair or replacement of any components that require attention. All electronics will be replaced or upgraded to the most recent H2 standards and this service includes a 12 month full product warranty from date of refurbishment. After registering your camera body at www.hasselblad.com/hcare, you will receive a voucher giving you a one-time-only option to have your camera body refurbished for only $1,349 at any time through December 31, 2011.
No one buying an H3DII has any reason to be concerned that the shipment of H4D's will signal the end of support for the H3D/H3DII. In addition to the H1/H2 Customer Care Program, Hasselblad continues to support and service digital backs from years and years ago, and further, continues to boost features for those older, legacy products from 5 and 6 years ago via free firmware upgrades.
I believe they have done an outstanding job with their committment to supporting and servicing legacy products.
Honestly, I have no idea who will be "left standing". But you have to remember these companies that offer advanced technology often take a long time to die.
[a href=\"http://tinyurl.com/35ogm5]http://tinyurl.com/35ogm5[/url]
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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OK, I have a question...
What the hell is an AD or CD doing looking over your shoulder in the first place! YOU'RE the photographer...what do they hope to achieve other than pure intimidation? If they have such little trust in your ability to deliver, something's not right.
I've shot for several high profile clients and it is well understood that the only persons allowed on the shoot are the photographer (me), my assistant(s), and occasionally a studio tech or studio manager.
Having an AD on site only opens you up to potential problems (like the AD changing his mind from what was already agreed upon in the contract you made him sign).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173114\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
?
Having not only Art Directors but also agency suits and clients is the rule, not the exception.
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Phase just laid off 20% of their work force in DK, mostly on the software side. their Alliance with Microsoft is turning into an acquisition by Microsoft.
Phase One, the DB portion, is for sale for $20,000,000, not very much in my opinion.
Phase One just cancelled a huge order with Kodak for 39mp sensors, sources say, and prices show, that they over extended themselves in their trade in/ups and have way too many of the non-plus backs in inventory to sell.
For the first time ever, Broncolor has published their own catalogue in the US, I hear they are distancing themselves from Sinar due to the inevitable demise of their MFDB systems.
These are the recent "Tea Leaves" I've read
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yes, it is ridiculous.
You seem to forget: Sinar has the largest system, from LF to MF, with MFDBs, lenses and accessories, and has the largest LF installed base.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173000\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Interesting POV Sinar has the largest system and the least amount of users, what kind of conclution can you make of this statement ?
In speculations everything can happen. I dont think beeing a part of a large company helps much. Kodak can suddenly deside to close down LEAF if they dont turn a profit, the same goes for Jenoptik and Sinar. Phase could be sold to Kodak or Microsoft. Fuji will break up with Hasselblad and make their own system open for everyone. Who knows, it is all speculations.
Lets hope for the best: Hy6/AFi will be a succes, Hasselblad will open up again, Phase and Mamiya will turn everything around once again with the new 6x7 chip for Mamiya RZ, Pentax will suddenly be a player with their new integrated Pentax 67D.
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What a bullshit: could you refrain from publishing such non-sense?
Thanks,
Thierry
For the first time ever, Broncolor has published their own catalogue in the US, I hear they are distancing themselves from Sinar due to the inevitable demise of their MFDB systems.
These are the recent "Tea Leaves" I've read
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173131\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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What a bullshit: could you refrain from publishing such non-sense?
Thanks,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173138\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Did Broncolor publish their own catalogue in the US?
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Interesting POV Sinar has the largest system and the least amount of users, what kind of conclution can you make of this statement ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173132\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
None, it was an information, in response to an assertion that Sinar had the smallest user base.
In speculations everything can happen. I dont think beeing a part of a large company helps much. Kodak can suddenly deside to close down LEAF if they dont turn a profit, the same goes for Jenoptik and Sinar. Phase could be sold to Kodak or Microsoft. Fuji will break up with Hasselblad and make their own system open for everyone. Who knows, it is all speculations.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173132\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Absolutely right. Don't speculate and let the future go its way and tell.
Thierry
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This might be, speculating about the reasons is another thing and misleading. It has been in the past, and you seem to forget that beside SBI beeing owed by Broncolor and Sinar (as well as Foba), nothing is tightening up these 2 companies, just that they are as close (as far) as 100 km from each other.
Thierry
Did Broncolor publish their own catalogue in the US?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173141\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Phase just laid off 20% of their work force in DK, mostly on the software side. their Alliance with Microsoft is turning into an acquisition by Microsoft.
Phase One, the DB portion, is for sale for $20,000,000, not very much in my opinion.
Phase One just cancelled a huge order with Kodak for 39mp sensors, sources say, and prices show, that they over extended themselves in their trade in/ups and have way too many of the non-plus backs in inventory to sell.
For the first time ever, Broncolor has published their own catalogue in the US, I hear they are distancing themselves from Sinar due to the inevitable demise of their MFDB systems.
These are the recent "Tea Leaves" I've read
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173131\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Could you BE more full of shit? Post your sources or don't post at all.
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It amazes me to see how so many know about the misfortunes of companies, with all related details, even can predict these misfortunes with accurate timetables, and more frightening for me, seem to feel an intensive satisfaction to publish and speculate about it. It must be human nature.
Thierry
Could you BE more full of shit? Post your sources or don't post at all.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173147\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Did Broncolor publish their own catalogue in the US?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173141\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No they did not publish their own catalog. They are using the existing english language brochure used elsewhere in the world.
Sinar Bron Imaging has opted to not produce a catalog for the last 2 years due to the cost of producing and publishing a 100+ page catalog, not to mention the cost of mailing.
SBI has published their price lists online for more than a year and feel that most information is gathered that way quickly. Not to mention that the product cycles no longer stay current for more than a year at a time. Meaning that they would have to have information on new products long before the publish date only to hope they stay current to the next publication.
They are also using Sinar's individual brochures and Foba's as well.
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OK, I have a question...
What the hell is an AD or CD doing looking over your shoulder in the first place! YOU'RE the photographer...what do they hope to achieve other than pure intimidation? If they have such little trust in your ability to deliver, something's not right.
I've shot for several high profile clients and it is well understood that the only persons allowed on the shoot are the photographer (me), my assistant(s), and occasionally a studio tech or studio manager.
Having an AD on site only opens you up to potential problems (like the AD changing his mind from what was already agreed upon in the contract you made him sign).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173114\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, the situation I'm talking about above was post shoot, at the lab, and the client was a major cosmetics company. But, there are always boat loads of people on set. Its not that they don't trust my ability, this is how it works in NYC. Its worse in LA. People come to "hang out". AD/CD, suits, an intern or two in their Diesel outfits, MUA, stylist, hair stylist (in NYC, hair is usually handled by the MUA, in LA you get a real hair person), someone always brings a dog. I usually tell everyone that the model is uncomfortable with so many people around and that scatters the suits and interns. I set up a monitor away from the set, which is where everyone congregates. Then its just me and the talent, maybe the first assistant, up close. I always shoot at a studio that has a kitchen area and is big enough to put some distance between the actual set and the client contingent.
Clients always change the brief, or add to it, on set. If the changes are beyond the usage or scope of the original agreement, I have a change order form on my laptop, which I have them sign. I also do not "make" my clients sign anything. They sign a contract, which follows on an estimate and a memo of agreement. NYC is not as macho as Chicago!
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Thanks to put this straight, Matt.
At least we all know now clearly about all this non-sense.
Kind regards,
Thierry
No they did not publish their own catalog. They are using the existing english language brochure used elsewhere in the world.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173153\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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It amazes me to see how so many know about the misfortunes of companies, with all related details, even can predict these misfortunes with accurate timetables, and more frightening for me, seem to feel an intensive satisfaction to publish and speculate about it. It must be human nature.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173150\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The basic problem is that, for many people, their perception of some bit of information gets expanded, extended and extrapolated into some new "facts" that are actually products of the human ability to imagine. Once people create these imagined facts, they are difficult to dislodge.
As an example, earlier in this thread someone posted "All the back makers rely on other companies for cameras. For Hasselblad it's Fuji". Since we are clearing up misinformation, Fuji does NOT make cameras for Hasselblad. Fuji does make lenses (which are either specified or designed by Hasselblad's optical design department) which include Hasselblad's own shutter system. Fuji also manufactures the Hasselblad H film magazine and the optics for the prism finders. Fuji does NOT make cameras for Hasselblad (did I mention that already?).
Fuji is an important manufacturing partner and sub-contractor for Hasselblad's H system. So much so, that Hasselblad licenses Fuji to distribute a Hasselblad manufactured/Fuji branded version of the H1 camera within a restricted region. The camera system however is Hasselblad's property and the camera is made by Hasselblad, not Fuji.
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Sorry for the off subject question, but could somebody please tell me how to unsubscribe from a thread. I want to stop getting e-mail notifications from this thread.
Thanks,
JP Jespersen
http://www.p45plus.typepad.com (http://www.p45plus.typepad.com)
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go to your "Control Panel" in "Messages" ---> "eMail Settings" and un-click the option "Enable 'Email Notification' by default?"
See attachment.
Thierry
Sorry for the off subject question, but could somebody please tell me how to unsubscribe from a thread. I want to stop getting e-mail notifications from this thread.
Thanks,
JP Jespersen
http://www.p45plus.typepad.com (http://www.p45plus.typepad.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173167\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[attachment=5060:attachment]
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Click on the My Controls link and look for Subscriptions.
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Thanks.
go to your "Control Panel" in "Messages" ---> "eMail Settings" and un-click the option "Enable 'Email Notification' by default?"
See attachment.
Thierry
[attachment=5060:attachment]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173170\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Could you BE more full of shit? Post your sources or don't post at all.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173147\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The same thing was said to me when I posted the discontinuation of the H2......
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someone always brings a dog.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173155\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks for the laugh!
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someone always brings a dog.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173155\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hehe, I used to use a stylist who brought her dog everywhere. I kept telling her: dogs, cables and light stands don't mix. Fortunately it was pretty lazy and liked to lie down under my tripod
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... and I had one food stylist who brought his huge Danish: he ate all the freshly cooked cakes prepared for the shots!
Hehe, I used to use a stylist who brought her dog everywhere. I kept telling her: dogs, cables and light stands don't mix. Fortunately it was pretty lazy and liked to lie down under my tripod
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173227\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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... and I had one food stylist who brought his huge Danish: he ate all the freshly cooked cakes prepared for the shots!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173228\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
and this setter (which was not supposed to be in the shoot) didn´t want to part from it´s owner (which was unfortunately the model)
[attachment=5062:attachment]
stefan
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[span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\']Sleeeeep nooooowwwwwww...[/span]
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Are you fine Samuel?
Thierry
[span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\']Sleeeeep nooooowwwwwww...[/span]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173240\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Are you fine Samuel?
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173241\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
(http://www.saruman.info/banner_saruman.jpg)
[span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\']Dear Thieeeeeerry.... I'm not Samuel. I'm Saaaaaaruman the white. Samuel has been possessed until this thread diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiies. I tried to register but my Comodore from the Third Era crashed unexpected... So I'm using this man's loooooogin until Michael develop support for ancient syyyyyyystems....[/span]
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that's what I feared!
Dear Thieeeeeerry.... I'm not Samuel. I'm Saaaaaaruman the white. Samuel has been possessed until this thread diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiies. I tried to register but my Comodore from the Third Era crashed unexpected... So I'm using this man's loooooogin until Michael develop support for ancient syyyyyyystems....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173251\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Phase just laid off 20% of their work force in DK, mostly on the software side. their Alliance with Microsoft is turning into an acquisition by Microsoft.
Phase One, the DB portion, is for sale for $20,000,000, not very much in my opinion.
Phase One just cancelled a huge order with Kodak for 39mp sensors, sources say, and prices show, that they over extended themselves in their trade in/ups and have way too many of the non-plus backs in inventory to sell.
For the first time ever, Broncolor has published their own catalogue in the US, I hear they are distancing themselves from Sinar due to the inevitable demise of their MFDB systems.
These are the recent "Tea Leaves" I've read
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173131\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well
If Microsoft is involved I think that would be a HUGE advantage to Phase if TRUE!!!!!!!!!!
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Did Broncolor publish their own catalogue in the US?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173141\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dear All,
No, Broncolor did not publish their own catalog in the US. Sinar, Broncolor and Foba all produce wonderful catalogs and brochures in many languages including english. In recent years we have included more of these in our mailings as to not duplicate efforts. I hope this clears up any confusion.
Sincerely,
Greg King
Vice President
Sinar Bron Imaging
USA
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That was really good Samuel !!!
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Well
If Microsoft is involved I think that would be a HUGE advantage to Phase if TRUE!!!!!!!!!!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173264\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Microsoft and P1 are already in a strategic partnership and have been since last year. But as for Microsoft buying P1 I think is a huge steaming pile of bs.
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Phase just laid off 20% of their work force in DK, mostly on the software side. their Alliance with Microsoft is turning into an acquisition by Microsoft.
Phase One, the DB portion, is for sale for $20,000,000, not very much in my opinion.
Phase One just cancelled a huge order with Kodak for 39mp sensors, sources say, and prices show, that they over extended themselves in their trade in/ups and have way too many of the non-plus backs in inventory to sell.
For the first time ever, Broncolor has published their own catalogue in the US, I hear they are distancing themselves from Sinar due to the inevitable demise of their MFDB systems.
These are the recent "Tea Leaves" I've read
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=173131\")
I am not sure where you got your information from , but I heard the reduction in workforce at Phase One was the extra staff that was hired last year( I think it was right around this time in 2007 in as stated in a press release in their archives) to get them out of the backorder situation when they launched the Plus series. They are out of their backorder situation now and did not require the staff because production is caught up.
Also I don't see it as a bad thing that PhaseOne put a promotion together to lower the cost of their refurbished backs. They are putting excellent technology into the hands of people who might not have been able to afford it before.
The promotions on the refurbished backs have generated a lot of interest for people considering the move back to Medium Format that have previously went the DSLR route. This is because the prices are more affordable (earlier in the thread I think someone comment about how expensive all backs were except the ZD, now the price of entry has been lowered by PhaseOne). Case in point we have P21's and P20's for prices right below and above what some of the new DSLRS are going for.
The refurbished units are also an investment because you can upgrade them after 12 months in the normal PhaseOne upgrade program. So like TMARK mentioned when he made his decision to purchase a PhaseOne back over the Mamiya, one of the key factors was the fact that the PhaseOne has historically has held its value and they have always lead the industry in loyalty programs for existing users. So it not only was a tool that fit his needs, but an investment.
One more thing from what I have heard was that PhaseOne has had record revenue and profits over the past 4 years including 2007 . Also in all my years dealing with and working for a Danish company the management has always followed up any financial comments with "anyone can get our financial reports, they are public in Denmark". So these numbers are somewhere out there publicly.
I would have to guess that PhaseOne is worth a lot more than 20,000,000. Some people are not aware but not only do they manufacture hardware and develop /market software, they have a great deal of intellectual property that is used by others.
Anyway who knows what the future holds for Medium Format Digital, but I have been involved in the industry since I think it was 1992 selling Leaf DCB's at that time(not really selling to many in those days,but actually demonstrating and breaking my back lugging Quadra 950's and big 21" CRTs around!). People would always ask why I was doing this and spending so much time with MF digital, there is no future with it. They would always say that there would be technology around the corner that is a fraction of the cost and everyone will adopt it and it will be a commodity. Well it is 16 years later and I am still involved! I do believe there will always be a market for Medium Format, but what will the size be and who will be involved? Those are questions that we can all speculate on, but honestly what good does speculating do? My opinion and hopes are that all the manufacturers will prosper and be around, so there are choices for the users. Each of the products have their unique merits. Also competition between the brands keeps prices fair and development moving forward. Competition is GOOD!
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
Phase One Dealer of the Year
305-534-5701 office
305-394-3196 cell
877-217-9870
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration , Phase One Dealer[/url]
lance@captureintegration.com
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Lance:
Very nice settling words. And also true, well, at least I concour with you.
In Mexico a popular saying goes: "El Sol sale para todos"
"The sun shines for everyone"
Best
Eduardo
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For those curious about the size of the companies being discussed,
Some quick Phase One facts:
2004
Total Income: 39.5 Million U.S. Dollars (203M DKK)
Pre-Tax Earnings: 1.3 Million USD (6.5M DKK)
Equity: 9.5 Million USD (49.1M DKK)
Employees (Worldwide): 73
2005
Total Income: 41 Million U.S. Dollars (209.7M DKK)
Pre-Tax Earnings: 1.8 Million USD (9.4M DKK)
Equity: 11.5 Million USD (59.3M DKK)
Employees (Worldwide): 96
2006
Total Income: 55 Million U.S. Dollars (284.2M DKK)
Pre-Tax Earnings: 8 Million USD (41.5M DKK)
Equity: 7.5 Million USD (38.9M DKK)
Employees (Worldwide): 103
Repeating from a previous post that I made some months ago... (Link (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=20261&st=100&p=149285&#entry149285))
The business of selling digital backs has not always been profitable either. You may be surprised to discover that Phase One has operated at a loss in many of the past years. The current CEO was appointed in 2001 and given the task of turning the company around. The group of banks and venture capital firms that owned Phase One wanted to groom the company to take public or sell. In 2002, Phase One diversified by becoming a software company with Capture One for Canon, Nikon and many other cameras. After years of losses, in 2003 Phase One turned a small profit ($350,000 Pre-Tax). 2004 was considerably better and by 2005, the owners were actively trying to find a buyer when they could show three straight years of profit. No buyer was found and in 2006 the company was sold to four current Phase One managers (75% share) and a danish venture capital firm (25% share).
Questions about the future, for which I have no answers:
- Would Microsoft (MS Pro Photo Link (http://www.microsoft.com/prophoto/default.aspx)) have any desire to acquire Phase One?
- Would Phase One's current owners sell? If so, for how much?
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Microsoft and P1 are already in a strategic partnership and have been since last year. But as for Microsoft buying P1 I think is a huge steaming pile of bs.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173333\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If you talk to the Phase people you will hear a lot of careful information about their alliance with microsoft, but as far as MS owning the company, that didn't happen.
Also if anyone thinks Phase, Leaf, Sinar, or Hasselblad would ever do a deal to go away from the apple platform, they're not thinking too clearly, because we all know that the majority of the imaging world is working on a mac.
Actually what most of us hear is speculative, or second hand at best and I think we all have to be careful about what we post.
Even if we hear it directly from the CEO in today's business world anything can change in a heartbeat. Who would have ever thought that Jaguar and Land Rover would be owned by a company based in India, so I try to take all of this with a grain of salt and worry more about what I'm doing than what a camera manufacturer might or might not do in the future.
With medium format these are small companies, though larger than most of our studios rumors can do a lot of damage. Imagine a thread that mentioned your name with the heading Joe Blow Photography . . . is he closing?.
With the web, that sentence immediatly becomes part of the google public domian and probably comes up everytime somebody types in Joe Blow.
I use a lot of digital cameras and backs and have owned even more. What I use now works for me very well, others for my style of shooting did not, but regardless of what I use, or how much I like the people that work at those companies, I don't wish any of the other brands anything but success.
As a professional, our choices for a long period were getting smaller by the month and now we see in medium format new cameras and backs, in dslrs, new full frame offerings and from my standpoint all of this is not just good, it's great, as options allow all of us to explore new looks and hopefully produce an image we never thought previously possible.
In fact I'm very glad that these companies especially the medium format back makers still have the passion and desire to keep making solutions.
I also applaude Phase for putting their previous P series out there at discount. Nothing but good can come from increasing the user base of medium format. It also provides the photographer with a lower cost backup solution, something that medium format needed to address for a long time.
These are other forums are full of the one camera fits all syndrome with constant battles of the Canon will perform the same as a medium format back, or the medium format backs are much superior to any dslr.
In reality all of them, even specfic to the actual brand work differently in capture, intermediate processing down to the final fiinsh of the file and owning 4 brands of digital capture devices, enough lenses to fill up a closet has only proven to me that one camera just can't do everything I want it to do.
I travel a great deal and at times carrying all this equipment makes me wish for a one brand one camera system, but then when I step back and think about it, for most professional photographers one camera, lens, film size never covered all the territories and I doubt if it ever will.
James Russell
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Mr. Russell's post is excellent! I am in complete agreement with both his words and the reasoning behind them.
I posted the financial information regarding Phase One to provide an example of just how small the medium-format digital market is and also to show that despite the very difficult market that exists, it is possible for a company to make a profit.
I also despise rumors and baseless speculation. They turn otherwise interesting discussions into gossip.
I also loathe speculation about what motivation a company may have for their business decisions. Business decisions are based on a perception and forecast of market trends and how to leverage your company's assets to compete and profit in the future as you see it.
You cannot, however, stop human beings from speculating about the future. It seems to be part of our nature. I simply wish that would be done based on facts and not rumor and gossip.
What the future holds for any of the companies in this market, no one knows. I gave some past history for Phase One to provide a factual background and some context for discussion.
As many in the industry have known for years, until the business was sold to the current owners in 2006, Phase One's business plan was to create an attractive business to sell for the profit of the investors. That was prior to the sale of the company to the current managers. If they still have a desire to sell the company, I have not seen any public discussion of that intention.
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I just took a look at Sinar and Leaf's offerings and was shocked that they are still only selling backs with 22MP sensors. I have been looking at moving to MF for over a year now and see very few good options. I would think 39MP is the minimum I would want so it leaves out any of the other companies except the following. I will be using the system for very large fine art landscape photography and some commercial architectural work. I am definitely maxing out my 5D when printing out to 40x80" even with my Leica lenses. A 1Dsmk3 is on the way..... so that will be the final factor when I get to test those images and compare with MF.
Any advice is appreciated.
1- Phase One with Hasselblad - I just don't see this having any future at all. And no WA lens.
2- Phase One with Mamiya - I used to be a Mamiya MF film shooter and never like the camera or lenses that much and I worry about Phase being around in a year or so.
3- Hasselblad H3D - No negatives except the cost and that is just doesn't feel like a Hasse.
My opinions open to comments please. Thanks.
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Asuming 60mp backs are annouced from later this year and 39mp or so becomes the new MF "entry level". One has to ask, who really needs more than 39mp? Who "needs" 60mp because 39mp just doesn't cut it?
I am already a generation behind with a 22mp MF camera that can produce detailed 24 x 36" prints, so I am in no rush to move up a gear. And as you imply, if we get off the ridiculous merrygoround and step back for a moment, I suspect most of us would be better off spending our time on photography and not spending more money on the diminishing returns of the "new, improved" kit that the manufacturers have to persade us to buy for their own, not our, reasons.
Quentin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172744\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There is a market out there for prints much larger than 24x36". Size matters. I just hope the prices fall dramatically on the 39MP backs at that time.
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I just took a look at Sinar and Leaf's offerings and was shocked that they are still only selling backs with 22MP sensors. I have been looking at moving to MF for over a year now and see very few good options. I would think 39MP is the minimum I would want so it leaves out any of the other companies except the following. I will be using the system for very large fine art landscape photography and some commercial architectural work. I am definitely maxing out my 5D when printing out to 40x80" even with my Leica lenses. A 1Dsmk3 is on the way..... so that will be the final factor when I get to test those images and compare with MF.
Any advice is appreciated.
1- Phase One with Hasselblad - I just don't see this having any future at all. And no WA lens.
2- Phase One with Mamiya - I used to be a Mamiya MF film shooter and never like the camera or lenses that much and I worry about Phase being around in a year or so.
3- Hasselblad H3D - No negatives except the cost and that is just doesn't feel like a Hasse.
My opinions open to comments please. Thanks.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=173726\")
[a href=\"http://www.leaf-photography.com/imgs/uploads/afi/leafafi_bro_en.pdf]Leaf AFi brochure[/url]
22, 28 and 33 MP and I recommend testing the 33MP Vs 39MP sensors before discarding the former. It is the only sensor at the moment that lets you exploit the resolution of the Schneider AF-D lenses...
Yair
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I just took a look at Sinar and Leaf's offerings and was shocked that they are still only selling backs with 22MP sensors.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173726\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sinar has had a 33MP back out for years. The difference between 33 and 39 is marginal. If you search this forum, you will find detailed discussion of the relative merits of these two sensors. Sinar also has multishot backs, if you need huge files.
Someone else already posted correction re Leaf.
Please check before posting rubbish!
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Leaf AFi brochure (http://www.leaf-photography.com/imgs/uploads/afi/leafafi_bro_en.pdf)
22, 28 and 33 MP and I recommend testing the 33MP Vs 39MP sensors before discarding the former. It is the only sensor at the moment that lets you exploit the resolution of the Schneider AF-D lenses...
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173735\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yair,
How do you test the HY6 digital lenses with anything but a Dalsa sensor? I thought Sinar and Leaf were the only people that had backs for this camera?
BTW: I like the look of the HY6 in black, is this an option?
James Russell
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Yair,
How do you test the HY6 digital lenses with anything but a Dalsa sensor? I thought Sinar and Leaf were the only people that had backs for this camera?
BTW: I like the look of the HY6 in black, is this an option?
James Russell
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173781\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Good question. I suppose they change the mount the 39 mpx back and modify it to make test and comparisons. Of course they won't let these secrets out...
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Since the Sinar and the Leaf are the only backs that work with the HY6/ AFi camera, it is obvious that the Dalsa is the only sensor working with the new lenses (through an integrated body).
However there are lens adapters made by ALPA and Rollei so if someone wants to really test side-by-side....
Yair
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Since the Sinar and the Leaf are the only backs that work with the HY6/ AFi camera, it is obvious that the Dalsa is the only sensor working with the new lenses (through an integrated body).
However there are lens adapters made by ALPA and Rollei so if someone wants to really test side-by-side....
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173806\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
wouldn't it be easier to test different backs/sensors with this?
(http://www.franke-heidecke.net/files/images/hy6front-en.jpg)
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Leaf AFi brochure (http://www.leaf-photography.com/imgs/uploads/afi/leafafi_bro_en.pdf)
22, 28 and 33 MP and I recommend testing the 33MP Vs 39MP sensors before discarding the former. It is the only sensor at the moment that lets you exploit the resolution of the Schneider AF-D lenses...
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173735\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If he needs a wide angle lens, as he said, is he not out of luck with the Hy6? Is there anything wider than 40mm available(or announced with a firm shipping date)?
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I'm going to check out the MF stuff at Focus on Imaging, which is always strong in the pro MF sector.
Quentin
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22, 28 and 33 MP and I recommend testing the 33MP Vs 39MP sensors before discarding the former. It is the only sensor at the moment that lets you exploit the resolution of the Schneider AF-D lenses...
Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173735\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Yair.
I was wondering what you meant by your statement.
As you know, I am very happy with my Dalsa / Aptus 22 sensor, so would be interested to know
why a 33MP sensor would exploit the the resolution of these lenses more than a 39MP sensor.
Is 39MP too much? or is there some other feature of the sensor that brings you to that conclusion?
If so, can you elaborate on what the test was?
I am not having a go at you mate, but would find it interesting to know.
Thanks
Andrew
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If he needs a wide angle lens, as he said, is he not out of luck with the Hy6? Is there anything wider than 40mm available(or announced with a firm shipping date)?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173812\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
In his post the OP said "I just took a look at Sinar and Leaf's offerings and was shocked that they are still only selling backs with 22MP sensors."
So I replied with a correction....
To your question the 40mm Super Angulon is currently the widest besides the 30mm Distagon fisheye.
Of course the AFi 7 back can be used on a WA camera with lenses as wide as 24mm; in addition a non-AFi Leaf back can be used on an H1/2 or a Contax with 35mm or on the AFDII with the 28mm
Yair
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I don't know who told you this, but it is years that Sinar has 33 MPx backs, not only one but 3 models: eMotion 75, eMotion 75 LV (live video) and eVolution 75H (multishot).
As said by Yair, I would suggest to compare a 39 MPx with the 33 MPx.
Best regards,
Thierry
I just took a look at Sinar and Leaf's offerings and was shocked that they are still only selling backs with 22MP sensors.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173726\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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not quite, James.
Thierry
wouldn't it be easier to test different backs/sensors with this?
(http://www.franke-heidecke.net/files/images/hy6front-en.jpg)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173811\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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not quite, James.
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173851\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
That's a shame because that's a pretty one, dressed in black and all.
So, nobody has ever put anything but a Leaf or a Sinar back on a Rolliflex hy6?
JR
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http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2005/03/66898 (http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2005/03/66898)
interesting article,
reading that for some 144 megapixel is where it is at
marc
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.......and Land Rover would be owned by a company based in India....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173532\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
(http://www.advrider.com/forums/images/smilies/NewCry.gif)
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http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2005/03/66898 (http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2005/03/66898)
interesting article,
reading that for some 144 megapixel is where it is at
marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173885\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As a previous owner of a scanback, I can tell you with assurity, this is not 'where it is at'. Nor where it is going for that matter.
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I have had it privately suggested to me that prior statements I have made, regarding Phase One's strong desire to find a buyer to sell the company to prior to 2006, were exaggerated or false. I'm not sure why anyone would find it objectionable that Phase One actively sought to sell the company. Leaf, Sinar and Hasselblad have all had mergers and acquisitions and there is no shame in that. In fact, it can be quite healthy for a business.
In any event, some may find this April 2005 interview interesting. The article below was translated from the original danish and given to me by an industry friend some time ago. I have provided a link for those that are fluent in danish and wish to read the original article or correct any of the translation.
Interview Article Link (http://www.computerworld.dk/art/27887)
Interview Article below from Computerworld DK
The Danish IT-company Phase One was at one time created in order to be sold at a later date, and that vision now is on the way to being completed.
Today several years' deficits have turned to million surpluses, nobody is bigger than Phase One in digital backs for professional photographers, and the time for a sale approaches.
“The Whole logic with developing and creating the technology in Phase One has always been with reference to a sale of the company”, Henrik Håkonsson, managing director, Phase One says.
Phase One is owned by 3i, Kirkbi, Danish-Erhvervsinvestering, Spar Bank Nord and Mikael Konnerup's investment company Dico, who is the greatest shareholder.
The turnover in Phase One rose by 28 percent last year to 203 million crowns, while the surplus was doubled. The future depends on the company's ability to maintain its market share at 50 percent.
“We have never believed that we had to develop cameras. Phase One cannot only exploit the technology that we have, but eight out of ten of the world's leading digital advertising photographers work with us or Hasselblad/Imacon, and that carries great weight”, says Henrik Håkonsson.
Swedish Hasselblad bought Danish Imacon last year for 100 million crowns, and are today the greatest competitor.
Today Phase One's software packages support to digital reflex cameras cameras from Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Kodak, Olympus and Konica Minolta.
On the software aspect Adobe is the greatest competitor.
Phase One talks and co-operates with both the European and American producers for instance Leica, Carl Zeiss and Jenoptic, but wants to not exclude the Japanese producer Canon as a possible collaborator or buyer.
“The Japanese camera industry is very national except Canon. The Japanese cameras can do everything, but they are complex, and it may be a problem for the professional photographer”, Henrik Håkonsson says.
He doesn't want to put amounts on how much Phase One can bring in, but Imacon was sold for 100 million crowns last year and Phase One has always been bigger.
“The amount depends on, who they are, what they are looking for, and what they can use us for”, the Phase One-manager says.
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If he needs a wide angle lens, as he said, is he not out of luck with the Hy6? Is there anything wider than 40mm available(or announced with a firm shipping date)?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173812\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
People don't realize that the week link in this system is the lack of wide angle lens. This is a byproduct of the system being a Hybrid of a 6x6 format when 100% of digital back is 645 or smaller format. But nobody has paid attention to that minor detail -- you, hcubell are the first one I see pointing that out, so now we are 2-- but I want to see them after they spent $30k and a client asked them to "can you take one general view image please" and they would have to go and rent a $200 Alpa just for the one shot...
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People don't realize that the week link in this system is the lack of wide angle lens. This is a byproduct of the system being a Hybrid of a 6x6 format when 100% of digital back is 645 or smaller format. But nobody has paid attention to that minor detail -- you, hcubell are the first one I see pointing that out, so now we are 2-- but I want to see them after they spent $30k and a client asked them to "can you take one general view image please" and they would have to go and rent a $200 Alpa just for the one shot...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174695\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually a lot of people are aware of the wide issue with the Hy6 and its various labels. There is a 35mm on the way. Is there enough difference between the 28mm of other MF systems and the announced 35mm to kill off the hy6? I don't think so. Currently you have your choice of two great 40mm lenses, the schneider f/3.5 and the zeiss f/4 distagon.
I'm betting that those that shoot wide frequently are going to have a different rig anyways because a lot of those really wide shots are going to also need perspective control, tilt or other movements. Wide with digital has other problems to be solved like lens casts, and some sensors don't play well with light coming in at large angles. So just because one system has a wider wide doesn't mean everything is all happy, click click.
What do I do when I need a wide shot with my 1.5 crop p20? I stitch a few images together. There's software out there that makes it really easy now. You don't need a fancy lens node exit pupil pano perpetrator - I've done these hand held even with great results.
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Actually a lot of people are aware of the wide issue with the Hy6 and its various labels. There is a 35mm on the way. Is there enough difference between the 28mm of other MF systems and the announced 35mm to kill off the hy6? I don't think so. Currently you have your choice of two great 40mm lenses, the schneider f/3.5 and the zeiss f/4 distagon.
I'm betting that those that shoot wide frequently are going to have a different rig anyways because a lot of those really wide shots are going to also need perspective control, tilt or other movements. Wide with digital has other problems to be solved like lens casts, and some sensors don't play well with light coming in at large angles. So just because one system has a wider wide doesn't mean everything is all happy, click click.
What do I do when I need a wide shot with my 1.5 crop p20? I stitch a few images together. There's software out there that makes it really easy now. You don't need a fancy lens node exit pupil pano perpetrator - I've done these hand held even with great results.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=174709\")
The other option as mentioned is getting a dedicated wide angle camera for those situations that can also include movements. The ALPA SWA/TC or the Cambo Wide or WideDS for example with digitars.
The cost of some of a CamboWide DS bundled config with a PhaseOne P25+ or P45+ only cost $3750 (35mm) $4000(24mm)during a promo that is running currently. Compare that to the costs of the Mamiya 28mm (open system)lens @ about $5k and the Hasselblad 28mm (need to use thier back and cannot be used with film) about $3850.
I guess there is no one perfect solution.
Lance
Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
305-394-3196 cell | 305-534-5702 office
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration , Phase One Dealer of the Year[/url]
lance@captureintegration.com
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What Sinar should do is to make a 28mm "DX" that would not work with film like the Hasselblad. Or, since we are talking about Sinar, a Auto everything (even AF) Medium Format Range finder. It could use the optics of the likes of Digitars with the benefits of not having to be retrofocus.
A fast flash speed capable Phase/Mamiya camera that accepts European optics seams to be arround the corner, and the Hy6 is not a finished system yet, (until we see this 35mm) so things may get interesting in the next few months...
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I didn't realize this was being talked about here, I posted this initially on the about this site section, anyway, here goes:
Michael, I strongly disagree with your assessment that lower pixel count digital backs are becoming irrelevant because the pixel count increases of digital SLR's. As you say earlier in your article, it's about time people stop worrying about pixel counts and start thinking about quality and in that regard digital backs give a very different look than a DSLR. A 22 MP DSLR is about as different from a 22MP digital back as a 16MP DSLR is from a back, it's not the pixel count that you get a back for (though it can be useful) it's the different look. I'd be surprised if you didn't agree.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=172754\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Back in the film days I skipped the 645 format and went up from 35mm to 6x7. I found that while 645 offered a slightly different look than 35mm there wasnt as large a difference as with 6x7 (specially when using appertures in the f8-f16 range as I do with strobes) which did offered a significantly different look. 4x5 is still in a league of its own obviously.
But todays MFDB's dont even have sensors as large as a 645 negative let alone 6x7 so the difference in look (from a full frame DSLR) might be more due to sensor characteristics and processing (and lets not forget optics which vary from mfg to mfg) rather than a large difference in sensor format. Its pretty subtle.
At any rate, if you need/want to shoot ultrawide then medium format is a bad choice, was then, is now. For that 4x5 film is great and in digital obviously 35mm format DSLR's from nikon and canon are best due to the available optics.
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Leaf AFi brochure (http://www.leaf-photography.com/imgs/uploads/afi/leafafi_bro_en.pdf)
22, 28 and 33 MP and I recommend testing the 33MP Vs 39MP sensors before discarding the former. It is the only sensor at the moment that lets you exploit the resolution of the Schneider AF-D lenses...
Yair
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=173735\")
Actually, since the new Schneider AFD lenses work on the Rollei 6008AFD (I think), you can use a Phase One/39MP back with these sexy lenses.
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/01/31/phase-one-comes-to-the-rolleiflex/]http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/01/...the-rolleiflex/[/url]
Good news for everyone.
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Actually, since the new Schneider AFD lenses work on the Rollei 6008AFD (I think), you can use a Phase One/39MP back with these sexy lenses.
http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/01/...the-rolleiflex/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/01/31/phase-one-comes-to-the-rolleiflex/)
Good news for everyone.
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The AFD Schneider lenses will not work on the Rollei 6008. However, the original AF lenses (f2.8/50mm, f2.8/80mm, f4/150mm, f2.8/180mm, f4.6/60-140mm) will work, of course.
For fans of those lenses and that camera, there have been and continue to be interchangeble adapter options that allow you to mount Sinarback (54M, 54H, 75H, e54LV, e75LV) or Hasselblad (CF22, CF39, CF22MS, CF39MS) digital backs.
The adapters for the e54LV, e75LV are the only adapters that revolve without having to remove the back.
Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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OK, I have a question...
What the hell is an AD or CD doing looking over your shoulder in the first place! YOU'RE the photographer...what do they hope to achieve other than pure intimidation?
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I don't remember the last time I shot WITHOUT an art director breathing down my neck. I live and work in NYC, and that is how it's done for the most part - in fashion anyway. The fact is that this is a collaboration, and I'd rather that the A.D. know exactly what I am doing so that there are no surprises after the fact. We want to make sure we hit the target, not miss it. Like having the client sign a polaroid back in the day.
This is not an issue of trust, but of the complexity of a shoot. (Your web site doesn't seem to have any pictures on it so I can;t tell what you do, but I shoot fashion where there are many, many variables. You can not just plan the shoot in advance and expect you are going to know exactly what the outcome will look like...) You need look at the monitor and make adjustments as you go...and that includes the art director, client, stylist, etc.
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I actually like an AD or Stylist to look down my shoulder. I more often have a stylist working with me since I do mostly just the product (fashion as well).
Having an AD or Stylist working with you really takes a load of your shoulders. You have some more eyes to watch the details, you also know that you are working into the right direction (especially if the client is there as well). It does leave you as a photographer to concentrate on the photography part of the job.
There are a million ways of getting it wrong and just 1 to get it right, I like all the help that I can get to do it right so my client is happy with what he/she gets.
You can feel intimidated by that but you can also welcome it as a necessary contact that brings joy and is really helpful.
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What Sinar should do is to make a 28mm "DX" that would not work with film like the Hasselblad.
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I did not completely understand what camerasystem you wanted such a 28mm for, but:
If this 28mm is for the Hy6, it still has to be placed in front of that huge mirror, making it a difficult task (but probably solvable, given a high to astronomical street price for such a 28mm.)
The smaller image circle of a DX type lens will help, but the mirror and sensor distance is the real culprit.
If this 28 was to work on a new camerasystem, then why the Hy6?
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Back when I was shooting on a hassy with an H25 the widest I could get away with a hassy 30mm fish. I made an action in photoshop to straighten it out. The number 3 was magical! .... increase canvas by 30%, then -30 distort sphere.... lines straight then crop out the wings on the corners.
nowadays the 1ds3 with a "good" 17-40 suits me fine.
in the old days clients gathered round the light table and peered the roids.... now they gather round the 30" and watch the liveview. I don't think they are even aware (or care) what cam is at the end of the cord... as long as the files are good. Most loe the "70's" look style in capture1.... feels less ordinary to them.... nostalgic is hot right now along with shallow dof. in fact.. I'm find stills and video are traveling on parralell lines right now.... everyone ( my ad's ) wants an s-curve with shallow dof.
back on topic...... I think MFDBs will continue to integrate into camera bodies. I think makers will produce wide lens' with smaller image circles just like canon and nikon have done. The top and bottom always mimic each other in order to find the most profitable middle. What drives sales is innovation and roi... the only thing holding us back in the economy.
I think it's great that a site like this can continue to cater to both the artsy right brainers and the left brain measurebators.
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I did not completely understand what camerasystem you wanted such a 28mm for, but:
If this 28mm is for the Hy6, it still has to be placed in front of that huge mirror, making it a difficult task (but probably solvable, given a high to astronomical street price for such a 28mm.)
The smaller image circle of a DX type lens will help, but the mirror and sensor distance is the real culprit.
If this 28 was to work on a new camerasystem, then why the Hy6?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=175895\")
IMO the solution for the HY6 is to lock the mirror out of the way and drop in a wide lens one would need a viewfinder accesory of course to compose and to guess the focus most likely
the schnieder 24 digitar is less than 6cm in diameter [a href=\"http://www.schneideroptics.com/ecommerce/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?CID=1325&IID=1879]I think![/url]
Nikon early fisheyes did this
S