Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: blansky on January 09, 2008, 01:51:44 pm

Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: blansky on January 09, 2008, 01:51:44 pm
I noticed a couple of posts on DP preview and Northlight about problems people are noticing on their Canon 1ds Mark 3 that there is from a degree to 5 degrees tilt between what they are seeing on the viewfinder and what they get from the sensor or live view. The horizon seems to tilt and a correction ccw needs to be taken to line it up.

Being a portrait photographer, I don't think I would have noticed this and perhaps it was present in other DSLRs that I've had. On top of that I never print full frame 35mm anyway but prefer the 8x10 crop.

Has anyone else noticed this on their new or even their older DSLRs.


Michael
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on January 09, 2008, 02:37:36 pm
If you don't have the grid line focusing screen, getting horizons perfectly level can be hard. I've never had any alignment issues with 3 different Canon DSLRs.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: mcbroomf on January 09, 2008, 07:33:16 pm
Ditto.  I spent 2 days walking around Hampton Court Palace over Christmas week.  While I do have a few that need tweaking (all were developed with DPP which doesn't have a leveling option) most were fine.

mike

http://www.pbase.com/mike_broomfield/hampton_ct_and_molesey (http://www.pbase.com/mike_broomfield/hampton_ct_and_molesey)
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: jeffok on January 09, 2008, 09:49:24 pm
I saw those posts too but I have not noticed anything out of line on my 1DsIII. I suppose if you look hard enough at any camera, you can find some kind of flaw, however minor.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: David Anderson on January 09, 2008, 11:28:27 pm
I haven't seen any problems yet, in fact I'm still very impressed with the thing ..

The grid on live view is handy for tripod stuff.
(not that I ever have time for tripods, but if I did !   )
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on January 10, 2008, 01:17:44 pm
I have also experienced sensor misalignment problems with 1Ds Mk3's.

Being a very satisfied 1DsMk2 user for three years I ordered my 1Ds Mk3 about six months ago. The body (serial 609xxx) arrived six days ago. On testing I discovered it had an obvious clockwise misalignment problem between the viewfinder and the sensor.

The error was about 1 degree (that's the rotation required in Photoshop to put it right). It doesn't sound like much but just imagine carefully lining a horizontal line along the top edge of the frame in the viewfinder and taking a photograph. On the beautiful new rear screen the horizontal line drops about 4mm from left to right - a huge discrepancy.

Also, because of the degree of the error part of the image is turned out of frame completely! - hardly a 100% viewfinder!!

I returned to my dealer here in the UK and demonstrated the problem. He looked both surprised and bemused but instantly offered me a replacement which we tested there and then in the shop. Guess what - same problem!

My dealer offered to contact Canon to discuss the issue and find out when they would be receiving more units. I have known my dealer for many years and was happy to leave the camera (and the thousands of pounds of dept on my credit card) for a few days while he sought an answer.

He has since received two more bodies which we have tested together. They also have the same problem. All FOUR bodies have now gone back to Canon as 'dead on arrival'.

Is it just a batch? ..... serials ranged from 606xxx to 609xxx (yes, the later cameras to arrive did have lower numbers) - that seems like a whole lot of cameras to me!

I also contacted Canon who told me I'd have a response in 3 days.... no response.

I am not a camera technician, but suspect one of three things could be at fault. Either the sensor isn't secured in the correct position, the viewfinder mask is not in the correct position, or the mirror is not aligned correctly across it's diagonal. Whatever, it's a real dumb mistake not related to the cutting edge technology that has been squeezed into this otherwise stunning piece of engineering.

I understand Canon are accepting cameras to be adjusted under warranty... but do you really want someone taking your brand new almost £6000 camera to bits before you've taken a single snap?!! - I don't.

I've noticed that a number of people have dismissed the error as 'nit picking' but as a professional photographer who relies on a grid screen in a viewfinder to line up compositions on a daily basis... the fault makes an otherwise great tool useless.

My dealer has returned my money.... for the time being.

P.S. I've been looking at the LL website / forums here for a few years and have gleaned some great info (and purchased some excellent videos) This is my first post so I'd just like to apologize for the rather negative content. Anyway - hello to all!
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: djgarcia on January 11, 2008, 01:48:56 am
I took mine out for some landscapes last weekend and hadn't noticed, but I just checked mine with my 50" TV and a test pattern for more reference, though just aligning the top would give you a clue. Noticeable. I wonder if it's a side-effect of the sensor cleaning vibration mechanism which makes it harder to align precisely at assembly time.

But here's the workaround, at least until Canon decides what to do, for precision shots: use Live View to frame your shot - perfect alignment guaranteed every time . Kind of a bit of a fly in the ointment. So far I love the camera, both operationally and the resulting images I've been getting, and frankly I can't really tell in the tree-laden images I shot or the wider landscapes with lots of horizon. Architectural shots would probably be a different story though.

I can see the next Rob Galbraith saga coming up ...
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on January 11, 2008, 05:49:49 am
Has anyone with this "problem" bothered to check that their focusing screen is aligned/seated properly? Given that the 1-series' screens can be removed and replaced, it would seem that reseating the screen would be a quick and effective fix to this problem without the hassle of returning/replacing the camera. A bit of tape applied to the right spot on the edge of the screen would easily fix this issue permanently; returning the camera over such a trivial thing seems a bit of an overreaction.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on January 11, 2008, 06:44:04 am
Quote
Has anyone with this "problem" bothered to check that their focusing screen is aligned/seated properly? Given that the 1-series' screens can be removed and replaced, it would seem that reseating the screen would be a quick and effective fix to this problem without the hassle of returning/replacing the camera. A bit of tape applied to the right spot on the edge of the screen would easily fix this issue permanently; returning the camera over such a trivial thing seems a bit of an overreaction.
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This issue may seem trivial to an amateur using the camera for his/her holiday snaps, but if you are earning a living from it's use then it's a different game altogether. A camera of the type is supposed to save time and hassle - not give the photographer something else to think about.

With reference to your "easy fix" the position of the removable screen has no effect on the position of the mask attached to the lower face of the prism. It's the relationship between this mask, the mirror and the sensor that is at fault.

There is no getting away from the fact that a £6000 camera intended for professional use should produce images as per the composition in the viewfinder - out of the box!
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on January 11, 2008, 08:23:28 am
Quote
This issue may seem trivial to an amateur using the camera for his/her holiday snaps, but if you are earning a living from it's use then it's a different game altogether. A camera of the type is supposed to save time and hassle - not give the photographer something else to think about.

With reference to your "easy fix" the position of the removable screen has no effect on the position of the mask attached to the lower face of the prism. It's the relationship between this mask, the mirror and the sensor that is at fault.

Before joining the Army, I did earn my living with my cameras. My experience is that "eyeballing" horizons/verticals is tough to do more accurately than +/- 2 degrees or so, especially if they are near the center of the frame and your reference is is the edge of the frame. If you're serious about perfect horizon/vertical alignment via the viewfinder, you should be using the grid focusing screen, in which case the tape trick I mentioned in my previous post will work just fine, if there are any remaining alignment issues switching screens doesn't solve.

In any event, using Live View tethered is an even better option, and renders the issue moot.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on January 11, 2008, 10:42:21 am
Quote
Before joining the Army, I did earn my living with my cameras. My experience is that "eyeballing" horizons/verticals is tough to do more accurately than +/- 2 degrees or so, especially if they are near the center of the frame and your reference is is the edge of the frame. If you're serious about perfect horizon/vertical alignment via the viewfinder, you should be using the grid focusing screen, in which case the tape trick I mentioned in my previous post will work just fine, if there are any remaining alignment issues switching screens doesn't solve.

In any event, using Live View tethered is an even better option, and renders the issue moot.
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Yes I am serious about perfect horizon/vertical alignment (not just of horizons) via the viewfinder, yes I do use a grid screen all the time. I also have the camera on either a studio stand or tripod 99% of the time - the operation of the camera should improve my workflow....not make it go backwards.

No, your bit of tape fix method will not work - I don't think you are understanding either the problem or the fact that an investment of this amount of money should result in a 100% correlation between viewfinder and sensor - not sticking bits of tape on the inside of a £6000 camera body to make the image 'appear' correct.

Having to correct each image by rotation on Photoshop will result in interpolation of pixels, whats the point of upgrading from a smaller pixel count just to shove the new pixels through an additional degrading hoop?

No, live view is not a solution rendering the issue moot. It is a pain in the butt that shouldn't be necessary. All I'm asking for is a capture of what I see in the viewfinder. I can see you feel I'm being unreasonable. So maybe we should move on.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: djgarcia on January 11, 2008, 11:12:14 am
I'm afraid I have to agree with Carl. I suggested Liveview as a stop-gap solution, not a permanent one, while the problem gets resolved. It is a bit of pain in the butt, and chews up the battery and gets the sensor hot. While it's probably a handy thing to have on occasion, I'm not crazy about using it as my main shooting mode. I really do like the new Info LCD mode though, which I was planning on having on all the time.

Knowing Canon's mute tendency until the very last moment when dealing with this kind of thing, let's see how long this is going to take ...
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: MatthewCromer on January 11, 2008, 01:57:45 pm
Apparently a 24MP full-frame Sony Alpha is imminently going to be announced at PMA with built-in sensor-based antishake for $3000-$4000 or so.  A Nikon D3x is also expected albeit probably in the $5000 range, and Nikon offers the incomparable 14-24/2.8 which absolutely thrashes every Canon wide angle lens, prime or zoom, in its range.

Perhaps some potential buyers of the 1DsIII will consider whether it is worth paying almost ten grand for a body with slapdash assembly standards and QC, using subpar wide angle glass and a defective autofocus system.

It's time for Canon to step up to the plate and stop acting like they own the high end marketplace, permanently, and can charge any price for their products.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Robert Roaldi on January 11, 2008, 02:25:55 pm
Something like this happened to a Pentax Super Program I owned once. I had bought it second hand and discovered the problem after photographing artwork, which I had been very careful to frame properly using a tripod. I thought I might have introduced a bias because of bad technique (hitting the shutter button too hard maybe; couldn't remember if I had used the cable release) but when I tried again using a different camera, the tilt went away. I took it into a repair shop and the tech refused to believe me. He put the camera into a device, exposed a couple of frames and then showed me that the exposed image was perfectly parallel with the film edges. I tried to tell him that the prism (or penta-mirror) was out of alignment, not the film transport, but he refused to look at it more closely and blamed it on user error. I figure a previous owner might have knocked the prism (or mirror, or focus screen) out of alignment.

I feel the same as some of the earlier posters about the issue in the current camera. If the problem is real, assuming it is based on the presented evidence, for that kind of money I'd be upset and would not be satisfied with quick fixes to compensate for the tilt. Buying new equipment for top dollar is what you do when you want to avoid this kind of problem. Whether I buy a Kia or a Porsche, I expect it to be in alignment when I take delivery; I'd be a lot more upset with the Porsche than the Kia if they were not, however, but I wouldn't be happy either way.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on January 11, 2008, 02:27:41 pm
Quote
Apparently a 24MP full-frame Sony Alpha is imminently going to be announced at PMA with built-in sensor-based antishake for $3000-$4000 or so.  A Nikon D3x is also expected albeit probably in the $5000 range, and Nikon offers the incomparable 14-24/2.8 which absolutely thrashes every Canon wide angle lens, prime or zoom, in its range.

Perhaps some potential buyers of the 1DsIII will consider whether it is worth paying almost ten grand for a body with slapdash assembly standards and QC, using subpar wide angle glass and a defective autofocus system.

It's time for Canon to step up to the plate and stop acting like they own the high end marketplace, permanently, and can charge any price for their products.
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I do agree that Canon have rested on their laurels for too long and the result seems to be showing it's presence in the 'professional' end of their range with this and the 1D Mk3.

I don't think that four faulty 1Ds Mk3 cameras in a row is just bad luck on my part, so I will be looking very carefully at the next one I receive. I do like the camera, the results and handling - as I did with my Mk2 so I have no intention of changing to Nikon (although I do still use F3 bodies when I'm traveling).

I have little interest in high ISO performance so with it's lower pixel count than my 1DsMk2 the D3 would be a step backwards in it's present form.

If I have any more doubt's or problems with the 1Ds Mk3 I'll stick with me Mk2 and medium format back for the near future.

I called Canon again today as they failed to respond within the promised three days. Apparently they have no knowledge of the issue (surprise) but it's been given a high priority and I should here from someone on Monday..... don't hold your breath.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: MatthewCromer on January 11, 2008, 03:26:18 pm
Quote
I have little interest in high ISO performance so with it's lower pixel count than my 1DsMk2 the D3 would be a step backwards in it's present form.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=166566\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well the D3x is rumored to be announced at the end of the month with 24MP.

We'll see if it happens or not.  Canon can certainly use the competition!
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Misirlou on January 11, 2008, 04:28:26 pm
I used to be a surveyor. There's no way in the world that any small bubble level device is sensitive enough to allow you to level a camera with respect to the local horizon to any greater tolerance than about plus or minus 5 degrees. They just aren't that precise. The really precise bubble levels, like the ones used on high order survey instruments, are so sensitive that if you shine a flashlight on one end (at night of course), you can see the bubble start to move as the glass vial is heated differentially by the light. Those are good to under a degree (or maybe a lot more, depending on the instrument). Also, in that kind of work, rather than just center the bubble, we read it's actual location against numbered marks on the vial, at several different pointing positions.

Knowing that, if we're interested in absolute alignment, we need to align the image to the local level plane. Levelling the tripod or the camera body is insufficient. If there's an alignment problem between the image (either the digital sensor or the film frame window) and the viewfinder, then you've got to either get the misalignment corrected, or in the case of a digital camera, use live view to match the image itself with the horizon. Thus Jonathan's suggestion. You don't have to shoot with live view, just use it to verify your setup, and then shoot using whatever other method you prefer. Of course, that won't do you much good for handheld work, but if you're trying to shoot architecture or something of that nature handheld, you've got all kinds of other problems.

When I'm shooting panoramas for QuicktimeVR, I use an ancient Canon point and shoot, since all the extra data from a DSLR would be more storage trouble than I need for my low-res result. That particular camera has about a 5 degree sensor/camera level discrepancy (I've heard anectdotal evidence that many or most of the same model are similar; probably an engineering/packaging design decision). I use a bubble level to set the tripod. Then I turn on the live view and rotate the camera around the vertical axis to check alignment. I use the tripod head to adjust the horizontal angle of the camera until I'm satisfied that the images will be level. Then I shoot. Piece of cake, and neatly sidesteps all the issues associated with tripod and camera leveling.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 11, 2008, 07:14:32 pm
Quote
No, your bit of tape fix method will not work - I don't think you are understanding either the problem or the fact that an investment of this amount of money should result in a 100% correlation between viewfinder and sensor - not sticking bits of tape on the inside of a £6000 camera body to make the image 'appear' correct.

Having to correct each image by rotation on Photoshop will result in interpolation of pixels, whats the point of upgrading from a smaller pixel count just to shove the new pixels through an additional degrading hoop?
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Jonathan's advice works. If you align correctly the line of the grids then you will not need to rotate the image in PS.

The problem that his fix does solve is the crop since the wrong positioning of the mask of the camera will result in the viewfinder not being in fact 100%. In other words, you will shoot a correctly oriented image, but you will not see the full area of the image. Depending on the mask's misalignement, this could make you waste as many as 1 or 2 MP or sensor real estate.

As a side comment, the orientation sensor of the D3 is key, since it enables the photograph - even on the fly - to align his images much better, which reduces the need to crop, and therefore makes you win as much as 10% pixel counts compared to images taken with a camera without this feature. Thanks to it a 20MP D3x would practically have the same pixel count as a 22MP Mamiya ZD.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 11, 2008, 07:19:31 pm
Quote
Well the D3x is rumored to be announced at the end of the month with 24MP.
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I don't think this will happen.

Nikon's D3x accouncement schedule is a balancing act between letting too many people buy a 1ds3 and preventing too many people from buying a D3 first.

IMHO, we are still way too close to the D3 introduction to make it interesting for Nikon to introduce the D3x now even if it were ready to ship. What they want is people to buy both, starting with a D3.

The only thing that might force Nikon to act quick would be the announcement of the Sony 24MP, but this is still only rumours at this point of time.

We will see.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on January 11, 2008, 07:27:45 pm
Quote
Perhaps some potential buyers of the 1DsIII will consider whether it is worth paying almost ten grand for a body with slapdash assembly standards and QC, using subpar wide angle glass and a defective autofocus system.

The autofocus issue with the 1D-MkIII was fixed before the 1Ds-MkIII was even released, and there's been zero evidence so far that the AF issue has cropped up in the 1Ds-MkIII. Your snarky comment about autofocus has no factual basis whatsoever.

The tape trick I mentioned will work to micro-align the grid focusing screen in the viewfinder if simply removing and re-seating the screen doesn't fix the problem. If you're not using a grid screen, then you aren't going to get accuracy better than +-2 degrees or so because eyeballing simply isn't any more accurate than that. If you use a bubble level attached to the camera, you can get within about +- 1 degree if you can adjust the level's attachment to the camera so that the camera and the level agree on what level is. Otherwise you are consistently going to be off in most cases. But even assuming you do all of that (and you probably haven't), user error can still creep in, like pressing the shutter release by hand instead of using a remote release. That can introduce an error of a couple of degrees even if the camera was leveled perfectly during focus & composition. And if you're shooting handheld and complaining about a degree or two of "misalignment"...

Canon's wide lenses (with the possible exception of the new 14mm prime) are the weakest part of Canon's lens lineup. Congratulations, one out of three ain't bad.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: lightstand on January 11, 2008, 09:08:17 pm
Just to add numbers to this post as I haven't found a viable work around, but I have a 1dsm2 that has this misalignment problem and it is a pain. Whether I'm shooting in a very tight situation where cropping just isn't afforded or another step in the workflow I really don't believe an $8000 instrument should possess this type of problem. (you want me to place tape where? taking away viewfinder real estate, and if it melts? - due to a high temperature zone?)

I never remember having a misalignment problem such as this on any of the view cameras I've owned nor having any problem leveling any of the 1Ns with standard bubble levels.  Because the camera is labeled for studio I have always thought it would be nice if Canon would create flat surfaces on various regions of the body designed so the user could use a more precise leveling device than just the hotshoe. I would rather create a cool picture than having a camera designed with eloquent curves.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: canmiya on January 11, 2008, 09:58:57 pm
Quote
Apparently a 24MP full-frame Sony Alpha is imminently going to be announced at PMA with built-in sensor-based antishake for $3000-$4000 or so.  A Nikon D3x is also expected albeit probably in the $5000 range, and Nikon offers the incomparable 14-24/2.8 which absolutely thrashes every Canon wide angle lens, prime or zoom, in its range.

Perhaps some potential buyers of the 1DsIII will consider whether it is worth paying almost ten grand for a body with slapdash assembly standards and QC, using subpar wide angle glass and a defective autofocus system.

It's time for Canon to step up to the plate and stop acting like they own the high end marketplace, permanently, and can charge any price for their products.
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why would nikon offer a 24 mp ff camera in the same price range as their 12mp ff offering?  the fact is that every company prices items where they believe the market is.   one could make the case that inspite of it's robust features , that $5000 for a 12mp ff nikon might be pricey given the fact that  there is a 12mp ff canon currently selling for nearly $3000 less.  the market however, clearly says that plenty of people do not feel the nikon is overpriced and the long line of people waiting to take delivery of the 1ds3 suggest that there is indeed a market for the canon flagship. for those who do have issues with how canon and nikon have priced their flagships, they can elect not to buy them  and/or look at other options that are more in line with  their pocket books and /or needs.  if we think the price is too high, no one is putting a gun to any of our heads and forcing us to buy the item.

 while sony may announce a 24 mp ff camera, i believe their lens lineup falls far short of the offerings from nikon and canon, which should be a consideration for anyone considering a ff alpha.  given the fact that sony has priced their alpha bodies to date at the same level as "comparable" offerings from other maufacturers,  why would they price a 24 mp ff body  so much lower that nikon and canon?  are they not profit driven too?  
It also seems to be a stretch to "round up " the $7900 price tag of the 1ds3 to "almost ten grand."  you also might want to consider that not every shooter wants or needs an ultra wide.  there have also been plenty of photographers who have made a very decent living using that " subpar wide angle glass".  while people have complained about canon wides, and maintained nikon had better wides, if you take the kodak n model out of the equation, until the d3, their has been no nikon ff dslr that 'tested" any of their lenses the way the 1ds cameras have tested the canon lense line.
the botton line is that the recent releases (lenses and bodies), should make most of the camera companies assess or reassess  their strategies---and hopefully adapt where necessary and appropriate.   if they do that, every photographer from the season pro to weekend soccer parent will benefit.

i guess i should disclose that i am one of those people shooting with a body "with slapdash assembly standards and QC, using subpar wide angle glass and a defective autofocus system."
regards
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: MatthewCromer on January 11, 2008, 10:34:44 pm
Quote
why would nikon offer a 24 mp ff camera in the same price range as their 12mp ff offering?

Because the Sony with the same chip will be retailing for $3000 to $4000 with built-in antishake.

Quote
the fact is that every company prices items where they believe the market is.   one could make the case that inspite of it's robust features , that $5000 for a 12mp ff nikon might be pricey given the fact that  there is a 12mp ff canon currently selling for nearly $3000 less.

I never said the D3 was a bargain.

The Alpha 900 at 24MP and $3000-4000 will be though, and it will force the other players to adjust pricing.

Quote
  the market however, clearly says that plenty of people do not feel the nikon is overpriced and the long line of people waiting to take delivery of the 1ds3 suggest that there is indeed a market for the canon flagship. for those who do have issues with how canon and nikon have priced their flagships, they can elect not to buy them  and/or look at other options that are more in line with  their pocket books and /or needs.  if we think the price is too high, no one is putting a gun to any of our heads and forcing us to buy the item.

If Sony delivers the 24MP for $3000 (that is the rumor, so low I find it hard to believe, but it comes from someone who has been spot-on with other Sony rumors in the past) they will sell way more of them than Canon sells 1DsIIIs.  Canon will be forced to respond.

Quote
while sony may announce a 24 mp ff camera, i believe their lens lineup falls far short of the offerings from nikon and canon, which should be a consideration for anyone considering a ff alpha.

How many lenses do you think a landscape photographer needs?  Come on!  Tons of enthusiasts will buy a 24MP sony at $3000 who would never pay $8000 for a camera.

Quote
  given the fact that sony has priced their alpha bodies to date at the same level as "comparable" offerings from other maufacturers,  why would they price a 24 mp ff body  so much lower that nikon and canon?  are they not profit driven too?

I don't know, but the rumor from (so far) reliable sources is $3000.  That is so low that some people are suggesting closer to $4000, but the most reliable source says $3000.

Apparently Sony is trying to compete with the 5DII.

The rumor could be wrong, but that is what the rumor says.

Quote
It also seems to be a stretch to "round up " the $7900 price tag of the 1ds3 to "almost ten grand."

It's not much of a stretch, $8000 and $10,000 are pretty comparable in terms of how many people are willing to spend that much on a rapidly depreciating camera body (answer:  not many).

There are droves of enthusiasts willing to spend $3000 on a camera body that is worth it, witness the massive success of the 5D in the landscape market where it has outsold the 1DsII 5 to 1 or more.


Anyway, if the rumor holds true and Sony releases the Alpha 900 with 24MP at $3000 (and I hope the 900 also has the Sony live twist-and-flip LCD leaked in pictures of the Alpha 300 back) I think this will be a serious game-changer for the high-end dSLR market, the way the original digital rebel at $999 was a serious game-changer for the dSLR market as a whole.  The camera makers have been charging far too much money to people who need maximum resolution, and bringing the price down to a reasonable level is good for everyone.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: MatthewCromer on January 11, 2008, 10:46:42 pm
Quote
The autofocus issue with the 1D-MkIII was fixed before the 1Ds-MkIII was even released, and there's been zero evidence so far that the AF issue has cropped up in the 1Ds-MkIII. Your snarky comment about autofocus has no factual basis whatsoever.

Rob Galbraith and many others don't seem to think it's fixed yet.  And there is no reason to think the 1DsIII is any better than the "blue dot" or repaired 1DIII cameras.

But to be fair, for a studio camera, I'm sure the 1DsIII autofocus is more than adequate, so that was admittedly a cheap shot (although one that Canon deserves).

Quote
The tape trick I mentioned. . .

Yes, I want to be putting tape on my $8000 camera to fix what should have been aligned correctly to begin with (and losing my 100% viewfinder in the process. . .)

Quote
Canon's wide lenses (with the possible exception of the new 14mm prime) are the weakest part of Canon's lens lineup.

That, and their refusal to use what is now commodity sensor-based antishake which breathes a huge amount of usefulness into fast primes in low light. . .  Admittedly Nikon is playing the same game here with their customers. . .

In any event, you should be thankful that Sony is about to introduce some competition into the high-resolution full-frame dSLR market.  It will make your Canon bodies a lot cheaper in the future. . .
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 11, 2008, 11:48:33 pm
I've seen evidence that the 1Ds3 alignment problem between the viewfinder and the image may exist. However, I've done a series of hand-held tests with my 1Ds3 this evening, photogaphing rectanglar furniture and a painting on the wall, and I have not detected an alignment problem even with this crude kind of testing. It may be argued that the testing is too crude to replicate the problem, but to cover for that I made a number of exposures, and where I succeeded to get the image aligned in the viewfinder it wasalso aligned on my display.

As for the auto-focus issue - again I cannot replicate this problem on my 1Ds3. In fact it focuses in almost total darkness, and it focused perfectly on very bright snow scenes here in Toronto last week.

Am I lucky to have gotten a good one, or are there a few unlucky people with sub-par ones? We'll know with more evidence.

As for Canon not being conscious of the need to market a top quality product for top dollar - I simply don't believe it. They may be insular and aloof, but many millions of cameras later they aren't dummies either and they MUST know what is going on around them - including all the rumours - because if you guys know these rumours you can bet your bottom dollar they knew them well before any of us, yet their prices are their prices and once they price the current model where they did, it's unlikely they will reduce it - that would be for the next model which may well be a good year or two away; meanwhile they need the current model to survive commercially. Either they simply couldn't price the 1Ds3 lower than they did, or they could but they aren't concerned about prices from Nikon and Sony. Time will tell.

As for Sony and Nikon, doesn't Sony manufacture Nikon's sensors? None of these folks live in a vaccuum. Competition is badly needed in this segment of the industry, but it won't be totally arms' length, and it won't levelize prices for differentiated products with many people holding expensive and dedicated legacy accessories. A 20+ MP camera isn't quite a commodity yet like a pound of copper.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Misirlou on January 12, 2008, 12:40:03 am
Quote
I never remember having a misalignment problem such as this on any of the view cameras I've owned[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=166625\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Lightstand,

Are you saying you never had a problem with the alignment between the film guides and the viewfinder of a view camera? How could you? They don't have viewfinders. They're called "view cameras" because you "view" the actual projected image from the lens, in exactly the same place the film will be. Maybe you mean the film holder guides in the cameras have always been parallel with the mounting surfaces of the cameras?

The OP is talking about the viewfinder image not coinciding with the sensor image. This should be extremely easy to test. Put the camera on a tripod in front of something with parallel horizontal lines. Line up one of those lines with one of the edges of the viewfinder frame. Take a picture, or better yet, activate live view, and see if lines in the scene are parallel to the image borders.

My old Canon S50 point and shoot is out of alignment a lot, but I've detailed my simple solution earlier. With my DSLRs, I don't see how the viewfinders are big enough to align an image to within one degree anyway. I'm really interested in seeing how big this discrepancy is with 1DSmkIIIs.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Christopher on January 12, 2008, 04:27:28 am
I just want to report that both my cameras serials something with 605xxx are absolutly fine.  I checked both carefully on my computer screen and couldn't see any difference between live view and the viewfinder. That is great and how it should be.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on January 12, 2008, 08:41:46 am
Quote
Jonathan's advice works. If you align correctly the line of the grids then you will not need to rotate the image in PS.

The problem that his fix does solve is the crop since the wrong positioning of the mask of the camera will result in the viewfinder not being in fact 100%. In other words, you will shoot a correctly oriented image, but you will not see the full area of the image. Depending on the mask's misalignement, this could make you waste as many as 1 or 2 MP or sensor real estate.

As a side comment, the orientation sensor of the D3 is key, since it enables the photograph - even on the fly - to align his images much better, which reduces the need to crop, and therefore makes you win as much as 10% pixel counts compared to images taken with a camera without this feature. Thanks to it a 20MP D3x would practically have the same pixel count as a 22MP Mamiya ZD.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=166608\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I do understand your line of reasoning, but the test seemed to indicate that the whole assembly (viewfinder, screen) may be out of sync. Line up in the viewfinder with the grid lines (or the edge of the frame).... and the resulting image is rotated. Even if your fix did work, it doesn't really help as, like so many photographers, I compose in camera to a great extent and the edge of the frame is an important part of that process.

But any attempted string and sticky tape solutions simply don't get away from the fact that it in such an expensive piece of kit things should work perfectly - out of the box!

It is not rocket science (or attributed to the the cutting edge nature of the new technology), it is simply nailing the bits together correctly!!

Maybe one misaligned camera may come off the production line in Japan on a Friday afternoon following a long lunch of sushi and too much sarke - but I've personally seen four with serials spreading over hundreds of units.

I've waited a long time for this camera to arrive. I actually want it to work!
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: djgarcia on January 12, 2008, 01:59:56 pm
OK, just did some tests in my house with both 1Ds2 & 1Ds3, using a wall with a couple of paintings & doorway, and I do get some noticeable misalignment I would normally need to correct, not noticeable in my 1Ds2 which actually shows a bit less of the actual frame than my 1Ds3, though well aligned.

My 1Ds3 S/N is 615xxx for reference, and no I'm not switching back to my 1Ds2 - I much prefer using the somewhat misaligned 1Ds3. In my case I can deal with it until Canon hopefully comes up with a fix.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: jjj on January 12, 2008, 02:15:05 pm
Quote
A bit of tape applied to the right spot on the edge of the screen would easily fix this issue permanently; returning the camera over such a trivial thing seems a bit of an overreaction.

In any event, using Live View tethered is an even better option, and renders the issue moot.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=166487\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I just bought a new Bently, but like all the recent models it has a duff starter motor, but as I always park it facing downhill it renders the issue moot.  Though I gathered if you got a starting handle and placed it under grill and yanked it  a few times it would normally start.  
God, you get some daft advice online sometimes.


Yesterday in my local dealer they just had a 1DsIII returned and the other 3 in stock were also useless. So looks like Nikon are going to be selling even more high end cameras than they could possibly have imagined as both the recent 1d + 1ds arrived with serious quality control issues. And it's not as if Canon [UK] are any good at sorting normal repair problems out either. For pros or amateurs.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: lightstand on January 12, 2008, 03:00:12 pm
I apologize for the vague reference it was aimed not at the OP but the idea that the misalignment is because the simple "over-priced" bubble levels could never level a camera. A sentiment I do agree with to some extent however I do know with my 1dsm2 a misalignment between viewfinder & sensor is present.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: phila on January 12, 2008, 10:29:35 pm
Just got the grid screen the other day and mine's out 0.75º.

A hassle but hardly end of the world stuff. I'll get onto CPS tomorrow.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on January 12, 2008, 10:52:58 pm
Quote
God, you get some daft advice online sometimes.

Yes, like "the hood ornament on my Mercedes appears to be misaligned clockwise by 0.75 degrees, so I'm going to return the car and walk 20 miles to work..."

For a 0.75-degree misalignment, re-seating the grid screen in its' socket will probably fix the "problem". And I'm still skeptical than anyone can realistically "eyeball" level to that degree of precision, even with a grid screen.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: D White on January 13, 2008, 12:22:30 am
Hi,

A week after I got my Ds3 I had a few weeks in Maui to do some shooting. I started to have this sensation that my viewfinder and bubble level did not agree. (It was a bit disorientating!)

The live view looks right so I am assuming that it is something with the viewfinder.

Now that I know that I am not the only one I will just sit back and wait for a fix to be announced. My focus tracking has been A1 in the hot and bright Hawaii sun.

This is one great camera for image quality and a significant refinement over the Ds2. I hope postings that trash this camera do not put people off of experiencing the excellent images one can get. It is not just less noise with a larger image file, but the quality of the noise that is there is "nicer" and more "film like" This really shows in B&W conversions and allows more extreme channel mixes without excessive and irritating noise and artifacts.

My "sub par" 16-35f2.8L is the best wide I have ever used. Maybe there is something even better out there but this lens is no dog. If you want to see bad, look at the corners of the famous 40mmCF Zeiss lens for the Blad, (one of my seven blad lenses). The Zeiss name is no mythical guarantee of optical nirvana as some posts would indicate. When people are throwing feces around, more seems to stick to the outside of Canon lens barrels than to the teflon coated barrels that the Zeiss lenses must have.

In terms of some one like Sony placing a full frame sensor based image stabilization system in there bodies, I am not sure of the physics. Would not the coverage of "full frame" lenses not be enough to cover the shifting of the full sensor?
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Stephen Starkman on January 13, 2008, 01:11:27 am
Quote
Yes, like "the hood ornament on my Mercedes appears to be misaligned clockwise by 0.75 degrees, so I'm going to return the car and walk 20 miles to work..."

For a 0.75-degree misalignment, re-seating the grid screen in its' socket will probably fix the "problem". And I'm still skeptical than anyone can realistically "eyeball" level to that degree of precision, even with a grid screen.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=166850\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jonathan,

I don't believe it is the grid focussing screen that is mis-aligned. In one case I know of the camera is equipped with the factory screen, yet the image is rotated .75 degrees. The test was repeated with a 5D - same setup, same lens etc - and no rotation was observed.

The importance of an accurate viewfinder is really an individual decision for each  photographer. For example, I shoot with tilt-shift lenses and use the Angle Finder C to assist me in aligning the images in the viewfinder. So, for me, the accuracy of the viewfinder is crucial - I would be unable to fully utilize my 1Ds3 if there was a .75 degree viewfinder error built into it. I've returned items for exchange to my dealer in the past for various flaws discovered shortly after purchase, and I don't see why this would be any different. The decision is the purchasers -  I don't think it unreasonable.

For the record, my own 1Ds3 does not appear to have this problem. I currently know of an  additional 1Ds3 owner without the issue as well.


Stephen
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Misirlou on January 13, 2008, 01:12:42 am
Quote
And I'm still skeptical than anyone can realistically "eyeball" level to that degree of precision, even with a grid screen.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=166850\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Again, my experience in the surveying world leads me to believe Jonathan is correct about this. Are any of you who are experiencing this problem absolutely certain that it was never present at all in any of your other cameras?

I never obtained (or needed) that kind of framing precision in the film days, but I suppose there would have been no point when one could simply rotate the print under the enlarger without even thinking about it. But to fractions of a degree?

If your work requires such precision, are you sure that taking a few seconds to rotate the image in Photoshop is really that disastrous? Aren't there a thousand other things you have to do to produce the finished results, making this just one tiny part of the puzzle? I'm not criticizing anyone here, just trying to fully understand the issue.

Some of you may be misunderstanding what Jonathan is suggesting with his tape solution. He isn't suggesting you tape over part of the viewfinder or the focus screen. What he's saying is that you may be able to rotate the focus screen so that it is then exactly parallel to the sensor. You might force that rotation by adding a tiny piece of tape to the outside of the screen frame on one corner. Essentially shimming it a tiny bit so that it turns inside its socket.

I did a quick back of the enevelope calculation, and I'm thinking that the required shim thickness to correct the .75 degree error would be .0047 milimeters. I don't have a 1DsMIII, so I can't know if my calculation was realistic, or even how the assorted viewfinder parts work together, so I could be off a good bit.

Assuming I'm even within an order of magnitude on that, I think it's pretty clear that we're talking about extremely fine measurements. I'm wondering if that kind of tolerance on a replaceable part like a foucs screen is even a realistic manufacturing possibility.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Stephen Starkman on January 13, 2008, 01:42:15 am
Misirlou,

It doesn't appear to be the screen.

In the one instance where I've seen evidence of the misalignment, the camera had the standard factory screen installed (not the grid screen). A test chart was photographed first by aligning using LiveView. The test chart was then photographed by aligning with the viewfinder frame and the resulting image was .75 degrees rotated. The test was followed by shooting the target using a 5D, without a grid screen, aligning with the viewfinder frame and there was no rotation of note. I don't see how shimming the screen would affect the end result in this case.

A grid screen is installed in my 1Ds3 - which does not appear to have the issue.

S.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: djgarcia on January 13, 2008, 01:58:26 am
I will say this, I love my 1Ds3, nothing will make me go back to my 1Ds2 except an emergency or where I really need two cameras at the same time, but I don't need a level to tell me my viewfinder is off by probably 3-4 degrees, noticeable if you try shooting straight doorways, wall sides, any obviously perpendicular or horizontal shape. If you turn on Live View it's immediately obvious if you aligned a vertical or horizontal line in the viewfinder.

I just went through a test with both 1Ds2 & 1Ds3 and the discrepancy is visible in the Mk III without any measurement, just the eyeball, and any working eyeball at that, no experience necessary. Still went out and had a great time (and some nice shots) doing marshes and trees and such.

I live about 20 minutes from Canon's headquarters in Lake Success, NY. If anybody knows somebody there I'd be happy to show them my 1Ds3 and they'd see it immediately, or else they're not driving legally .
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: phila on January 13, 2008, 02:12:49 am
A further test shows it to be the v/f, rather than the screen.

Test One: Centre horizontal line of the grid screen placed exactly along the matt / print border. The "slope" is clearly seen, even of the camera's display.

http://www.philaphoto.com/images/test1.jpg (http://www.philaphoto.com/images/test1.jpg)

Test Two: Just tilted the camera up so the same matt / print border was just above the bottom edge of the v/f. I didn't worry about getting square on for this one.

http://www.philaphoto.com/images/test2.jpg (http://www.philaphoto.com/images/test2.jpg)

Hardly super scientific but shows the problem.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on January 13, 2008, 08:26:51 am
Quote
I don't see how shimming the screen would affect the end result in this case.

Shimming the screen is only effective if you have a grid focus screen installed, and you align your subject to the grid instead of the viewfinder edges. Even if the mask on the viewfinder prism was misaligned slightly, it's quite possible that the focus screen mount is not misaligned, and if so, installing a grid screen would provide one with an accurate level reference without shimming the screen at all. It's a cheap and easy fix to try, and much less hassle than returning multiple cameras.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 13, 2008, 09:41:01 am
Quote
Shimming the screen is only effective if you have a grid focus screen installed, and you align your subject to the grid instead of the viewfinder edges. Even if the mask on the viewfinder prism was misaligned slightly, it's quite possible that the focus screen mount is not misaligned, and if so, installing a grid screen would provide one with an accurate level reference without shimming the screen at all. It's a cheap and easy fix to try, and much less hassle than returning multiple cameras.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=166879\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jonathan, first, as I mentioned above, I don't appear to have this problem with my 1Ds3. Having said that, clearly there is an issue, but we don't know how widespread. I would also suggest there could be a number of explanations for it. Only Canon engineers would know for sure. So while your fix may work based on your hypothesis of the cause - and it is helpful that you are suggesting people with the problem should try these things to see whether they work - this could well be a quality control issue at the manufacturing plant in Japan. Canon clearly knows how to manufacture cameras to near-perfection, but it wouldn't be the first time that silly things slip through their procedures and end-up on the market. I really think the way forward on this issue is for people who have the problem to send Canon carefully prepared evidence allowing them to investigate the issue. They aren't always the most responsive corporate entity around unfortunately, but my sense is that on something as basic as this on a flagship product entering an intensively competitive environment they will respond, as they did on the 1D3 focusing issue. It may take some pressure, but in the final analysis the only correct solution is for Canon itself to repair or replace any defective units, and not leave it to user-concocted workarounds. That will not enhance their reputation as a world-class camera manufacturer.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on January 13, 2008, 09:54:34 am
I'm not saying that Canon should ignore this issue. If someone wants this issue corrected, Canon should do so under warranty. I just think that some of the reaction to it (it makes the camera completely useless, one should sell all their Canon gear and buy Nikon or Sony, etc) is hyperbolic BS. It's hardly in the same class of problem as the shutter failing,  or the camera locking up unexpectedly, etc. Let's keep a bit of perspective here. I'd gladly trade a slightly misaligned viewfinder for all of the other improvements a 1Ds-Mark III would offer compared to my 1Ds-Mark I.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 13, 2008, 10:02:46 am
I agree.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on January 13, 2008, 11:25:34 am
Quote
I'm not saying that Canon should ignore this issue. If someone wants this issue corrected, Canon should do so under warranty. I just think that some of the reaction to it (it makes the camera completely useless, one should sell all their Canon gear and buy Nikon or Sony, etc) is hyperbolic BS. It's hardly in the same class of problem as the shutter failing,  or the camera locking up unexpectedly, etc. Let's keep a bit of perspective here. I'd gladly trade a slightly misaligned viewfinder for all of the other improvements a 1Ds-Mark III would offer compared to my 1Ds-Mark I.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=166889\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Jonathan, you mentioned earlier in this thread that you are in the army.

Would you accept going into battle with a weapon that doesn't shoot where you've aimed it? .... I doubt it.

As a professional photographer, when I point a £6000 digital camera at a subject I expect to capture that subject in all it's glory - not slightly sloping with a bit missing off the corner - period.

As I mentioned before, I've personally tested and rejected FOUR of these cameras - and many more people are experiencing the same issue.  I'm now beginning to wonder if they all suffer from the same problem to a lesser or greater extent - sloppy construction.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Misirlou on January 13, 2008, 11:45:17 am
Quote
A further test shows it to be the v/f, rather than the screen.

Test One: Centre horizontal line of the grid screen placed exactly along the matt / print border. The "slope" is clearly seen, even of the camera's display.

http://www.philaphoto.com/images/test1.jpg (http://www.philaphoto.com/images/test1.jpg)

Test Two: Just tilted the camera up so the same matt / print border was just above the bottom edge of the v/f. I didn't worry about getting square on for this one.

http://www.philaphoto.com/images/test2.jpg (http://www.philaphoto.com/images/test2.jpg)

Hardly super scientific but shows the problem.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=166869\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Wow. That is pretty extreme. About as misaligned as my old S50 point and shoot. I suspect there is something about these cameras that allows a critical component in the viewfinder optics to rotate when it shouldn't. I'd be surprised if Canon didn't offer some sort of fix pretty quickly. If I had one of these cameras, I'd use live view and a tripod for things that need critical framing, at least until Canon comes up with a solution.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 13, 2008, 11:53:57 am
Carl, were the four cameras you rejected from the same batch - judging from the serial numbers?

I have just done a further test on mine, and I've come to realise this is not easy to do. Even (or perhaps especially) on a tripod, it's hard to get a perfect rectangular alignment of a perfectly rectangular subject. I had better luck last night hand-held. Anyhow, FWIW, last night's image showed no perceptible issue, hand-held aligning the image (of a painting on the wall) in the viewfinder. This morning's image on the tripod also aligned through the viewfinder showed a mis-alignment of 0.18 degrees CCW on two dimensions top and left vertical) and 0.41 degrees CCW on the two other dimensions (bottom and right vertical) - but measuring this also means placing the ruler very exactly where it should be left and right or top and bottom. I did this at 100% on edges that have decent contrast.  

I guess my position on this is that if Canon issues an advisory, I'd send them my camera for precise testing under laboratory conditions and adjustment as indicated. Meanwhile, I shall continue using it happily. I find that most of my shots involving straight horizontals and verticals often need some kind of perspective and de-skewing adjustment anyhow, so this is not a deal-breaker even if there were a slight mis-alignment of a component in the camera.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: djgarcia on January 13, 2008, 12:16:17 pm
Yes Virginia, a picture is worth a gazillion words. The following image was nicely aligned in the viewfinder:

1Ds III Misalignment (http://improbablystructuredlayers.net/Special/1Ds3MA.jpg)
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mike Chini on January 13, 2008, 12:44:36 pm
These pics all seem pretty extreme.  I'd return anything that's off this much immediately.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on January 13, 2008, 01:23:43 pm
Quote
Carl, were the four cameras you rejected from the same batch - judging from the serial numbers?

I have just done a further test on mine, and I've come to realise this is not easy to do. Even (or perhaps especially) on a tripod, it's hard to get a perfect rectangular alignment of a perfectly rectangular subject. I had better luck last night hand-held. Anyhow, FWIW, last night's image showed no perceptible issue, hand-held aligning the image (of a painting on the wall) in the viewfinder. This morning's image on the tripod also aligned through the viewfinder showed a mis-alignment of 0.18 degrees CCW on two dimensions top and left vertical) and 0.41 degrees CCW on the two other dimensions (bottom and right vertical) - but measuring this also means placing the ruler very exactly where it should be left and right or top and bottom. I did this at 100% on edges that have decent contrast. 

I guess my position on this is that if Canon issues an advisory, I'd send them my camera for precise testing under laboratory conditions and adjustment as indicated. Meanwhile, I shall continue using it happily. I find that most of my shots involving straight horizontals and verticals often need some kind of perspective and de-skewing adjustment anyhow, so this is not a deal-breaker even if there were a slight mis-alignment of a component in the camera.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=166903\")

Hi Mark, The serials ranged from 606xxx to 609xxx.

It was very obvious just by putting the camera on a tripod, aligning a shelf along the top edge of the frame and taking a pic. We saw a 4mm from from left to right on the viewing screen.

I tested the first one in the studio securing it to a stand, leveling it looking down at the floor. Place four rules on the floor so they parallel but only just visible to the four sides of the viewfinder. In the resulting image you should just see a little more of the rules on all sides but nice and parallel to the frame. This required a 1 degree correction in photoshop to achieve with the dodgy camera.

If you want to see a one degree error, make a layer in photoshop and spin it just one degree - it really is a huge error .... despite what a number of people may be suggesting on this thread.

Have you seen [a href=\"http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/cameras/canon_1ds3_tilt.html]http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article..._1ds3_tilt.html[/url]

I understand Canon are already doing the adjustment under warranty, but they are unlikely to admit to it wholesale as that would effect sales right now while they have a glut of orders.

1D Mk3 focus issue head in the sand denial all over again I'd wager.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 13, 2008, 02:22:13 pm
The range of serial numbers is a bit concerning Carl. One wonders though why the problem varies so much between users. It does begin to sound as if Canon may be rushing them out the door before the competitors market their 20+MP offerings.

If they are already repairing them under warranty, it means they have recognized the problem. As it is appearing on at least four websites already (here, DPR, FM and Northlight) it would be difficult for them to sustain any insualrity. It looks as if the key decision facing them on this matter is whether to just keep repairing them quietly or to issue an advisory. If the noise gets loud AND widespread enough they may need to say something. But it is good to know they are fixing peoples' cameras. It would also be interesting to know exactly what the cause of the problem is.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Stephen Starkman on January 13, 2008, 02:34:08 pm
Quote
I have just done a further test on mine, and I've come to realise this is not easy to do.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=166903\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes, it is tricky!

I tested only to the point where the margin of error that *I* would introduce in real world shooting is the limiting factor. I don't expect any v/f optical system (with or without a grid screen) to result in perfectly aligned images - not on the 1Ds3, or any other 35mm format camera.

In the field, I would probably work faster than when I was testing - likely resulting in images that need some straightening (but it all depends on the image, right?!).

A .75 degree rotation error *built in* to a defective 1Ds3 would result in a higher number of images that require a corrective cropping and would compound any human error introduced when aligning. Not to mention it's just simply too great an error to be acceptable on an SLR.

I still believe that the relevance of this issue, if present, is best judged by the photographer him/herself and that generalized statements aren't really valid. This is an $8000 camera and most users are probably quite astute about their photographic needs.

S.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on January 13, 2008, 02:46:37 pm
Quote
The range of serial numbers is a bit concerning Carl. One wonders though why the problem varies so much between users. It does begin to sound as if Canon may be rushing them out the door before the competitors market their 20+MP offerings.

If they are already repairing them under warranty, it means they have recognized the problem. As it is appearing on at least four websites already (here, DPR, FM and Northlight) it would be difficult for them to sustain any insualrity. It looks as if the key decision facing them on this matter is whether to just keep repairing them quietly or to issue an advisory. If the noise gets loud AND widespread enough they may need to say something. But it is good to know they are fixing peoples' cameras. It would also be interesting to know exactly what the cause of the problem is.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=166929\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I still can't figure exactly what the problem is. If the camera has room for adjustment in either the viewing screen mask or the position of the sensor I would of expected a test to confirm they are adjusted correctly before the bodies leave the factory.

I think I'm right in surmising that a slight mis-alignment of the mirror along it's diagonal would also cause a rotation of the image.

I guess if they are fixing it .... they can tell us! - Apparently I'll get a call from Canon UK tomorrow so I'll ask the obvious.

I'd like to make it clear that I'm not here to knock Canon, I've invested alot of hard earned cash and I'm surprised to come across such a dumb fault at this stage in a products production. It would also be nice to be treated as a valued customer with some good old up-front honesty for a change.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on January 13, 2008, 02:51:19 pm
Quote
Yes, it is tricky!

I tested only to the point where the margin of error that *I* would introduce in real world shooting is the limiting factor. I don't expect any v/f optical system (with or without a grid screen) to result in perfectly aligned images - not on the 1Ds3, or any other 35mm format camera.

In the field, I would probably work faster than when I was testing - likely resulting in images that need some straightening (but it all depends on the image, right?!).

A .75 degree rotation error *built in* to a defective 1Ds3 would result in a higher number of images that require a corrective cropping and would compound any human error introduced when aligning. Not to mention it's just simply too great an error to be acceptable on an SLR.

I still believe that the relevance of this issue, if present, is best judged by the photographer him/herself and that generalized statements aren't really valid. This is an $8000 camera and most users are probably quite astute about their photographic needs.

S.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=166931\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you can't see it - you don't have the problem.

It is an obvious error - we are not talking about splitting hairs! (I wish we were)
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: jjj on January 13, 2008, 03:21:18 pm
Quote
Yes, like "the hood ornament on my Mercedes appears to be misaligned clockwise by 0.75 degrees, so I'm going to return the car and walk 20 miles to work..."

For a 0.75-degree misalignment, re-seating the grid screen in its' socket will probably fix the "problem". And I'm still skeptical than anyone can realistically "eyeball" level to that degree of precision, even with a grid screen.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=166850\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A misaligned hood ornament will not affect the use of the car in any way. Incorrect viewfinders directly affect the use of a camera. And that's why people are returning the wonky items.
I rarely have to straighten horizons and I don't use tripods or grid screens either and if I do, I'd say 0.75 of a degree is surpringly significant rotate. But then when I go into people's houses all the pictures usually look wonky to me, because they are normally a little out. Some of us notice these things, some don't.
And as mentioned above, if you aren't that accurate then the misaligment may make one is less accurate to the point of wasting time in PS correcting lots of images.

Just because you think it's not a problem doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Besides for a very, very expensive camera like the 1DsIII, suggesting one bodges the screen seating or uses sticky tape to make up for a manufacturing defect are really stupid and naive suggestions.

The fact that numerous websites are reporting issues, the fact that when talking about the new Canon + Nikon in my local shop, the first thing mentioned was that all their Canons had a problem and there was even a chap in the shop who'd returned one because it had a problem, tends to indicate that they may actually be.....a problem.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: pfigen on January 14, 2008, 01:39:13 am
Anyone who thinks this might be a trivial problem has never worked with super demanding anal art directors who really can see the difference. Anything, and I mean, anything that slows you down or forces you to recompose your image to compensate for a viewfinder/final image misalignment is completely unacceptable. Having even the slightest misalignment would drive me completely nuts. I don't want to have to guess as what my actual framing might be, especially when shooting on location, where you often don't have the luxury of either shooting tethered or using Live View. I still want a 100 percent accurate viewfinder. For the record, my 1DsMKII is extremely accurate and even with the standard focusing screen, horizons and other straight lines are right on.

It's interesting that Samy's seems to be having trouble getting cameras right now. I wonder if this issue is being addressed at the factory and might account for a supply shortage.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on January 14, 2008, 04:47:21 am
Quote
Anyone who thinks this might be a trivial problem has never worked with super demanding anal art directors who really can see the difference. Anything, and I mean, anything that slows you down or forces you to recompose your image to compensate for a viewfinder/final image misalignment is completely unacceptable. Having even the slightest misalignment would drive me completely nuts. I don't want to have to guess as what my actual framing might be, especially when shooting on location, where you often don't have the luxury of either shooting tethered or using Live View. I still want a 100 percent accurate viewfinder. For the record, my 1DsMKII is extremely accurate and even with the standard focusing screen, horizons and other straight lines are right on.

It's interesting that Samy's seems to be having trouble getting cameras right now. I wonder if this issue is being addressed at the factory and might account for a supply shortage.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167018\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You put that very succinctly.

Have to say, my 1DsMKII is also extremely accurate - I repeated the test I applied to the dodgy MkIII just to clarify.... technological regress is difficult to accept!
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: phila on January 15, 2008, 01:13:00 am
Just collected my MkIII from Canon service (less than 24 hours turnaround, handy they are only 15 minutes away) after a prism assembly realignment and all is now as it should be.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: djgarcia on January 15, 2008, 01:27:37 am
Good to hear! Mine's all packed up and ready to get fixed after contacting Canon Service today. let's see how quick my turnaround is in the Jersey facility.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: jjj on January 15, 2008, 06:11:49 am
Quote
Good to hear! Mine's all packed up and ready to get fixed after contacting Canon Service today. let's see how quick my turnaround is in the Jersey facility.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167253\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I hope it's better than the UK. The professional servce is anything but.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on January 15, 2008, 11:24:08 am
Quote
Just collected my MkIII from Canon service (less than 24 hours turnaround, handy they are only 15 minutes away) after a prism assembly realignment and all is now as it should be.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167251\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Nice move! ... "prism assembly realignment"... sounds like a relatively easy fix to the uninitiated (me) , I can almost feel the Canon technicians taking a deep breath prior to the arrival of hundreds of sold and unsold cameras....

I had a call from Canon UK who are not aware of a widespread problem other than one compliant (which is interesting as I've returned four myself!) Shame there is no communication between divisions on both sides of the pond... no information is good information from their perspective I suppose!

Glad you got your problem sorted. Well done Canon.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: luong on January 15, 2008, 09:27:56 pm
In my own testing, I took six shots on tripod.  For each of them, I aligned the middle horizontal line of my Ec-D grid screen with a different horizontal line. I used the ruler tool of PS to determine the tilt. Here are the results, all CCW: 0.3, 0.34, 0.34, 0.36, 0.45, 0.49. Average = 0.38, Std Dev = 6.7

A 0.75 degree tilt is quite large, one that I would certainly see on screen and want to correct. Should my camera have exhibited such a large mis-alignment, I would have sent it immediately to CPS. As it is, I will still do so, but with less urgency.

I just don't understand how some can say that 1 or 2 degrees is within normal operating error. That's a big deviation if you have any horizontal lines in the image. Using a "cheap" bubble level, I can certainly get consistently within less than 0.5 degrees.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dottore on January 15, 2008, 10:27:52 pm
No offense, but from reading a large number of posts on various problems with various cameras and lenses I notice that in general photographers are very insecure in the areaas of engineering and technology.  Perhaps one can't produce a nice sunset picture and know how cameras are made and work at the same time.

A fraction of a degree viewfinder/sensor misalignment is absolutely unacceptable. It is unacceptable in a fake wood box made in China bought at a home decorating store.  1 degree slope is a 0.2 inch or about 5 mm gap on the length of a letter size page (11 inches).  It would cost less than a couple bucks per piece to assemble cameras with less than 0.05 degree misalignment guaranteed.

How can anyone look at a sloping horizon and need to ask someone else whether this is OK?  How can anyone look at a fuzzy picture and persuade oneself it's OK because the gadget is sooooo great otherwise?

Why did they start making cameras like this?  
To save money.  They switched to a technology where there is no fedback or quality control - this is an "improvement" - assembly is supposed to get it it right without any check or adjustment the first time.  And it works -- how well we all can see.  Practically all japanese cameras are now made this way.  From a $ 600 Rebel to $10,000 Mk XXLIV.   How much money do they save? A layman would be surprised to know that even for a $30,000 car the manufacturers do care to save $1.50 per radio control knob.  I would estimate the savings per camera (as opposed to an assembly with actual adjustment of the alignment) as a couple bucks at most. Probably much less. Does it count to them ? They are absolutely sure it does.

It is unacceptable, just as a lousy focusing accuracy is unacceptable, but it is present in practically all japanese cameras.  But there is nowhere to run. Switching to Nicon won't help. Maybe Leica.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on January 16, 2008, 08:19:23 am
Quote
It is unacceptable, just as a lousy focusing accuracy is unacceptable, but it is present in practically all japanese cameras.  But there is nowhere to run. Switching to Nicon won't help. Maybe Leica.

One of the complaints about the M8 (besides several people reporting going through multiple bodies that failed completely before giving up and getting a refund) is having to send lenses in for focus calibration because of discrepancies between the rangefinder focus indication and the actual focus distance...
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 16, 2008, 08:22:42 am
Quote
They switched to a technology where there is no fedback or quality control - this is an "improvement" - assembly is supposed to get it it right without any check or adjustment the first time. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167454\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Dottore,

I would much appreciate if you could inform us how you know this is the way they manufacture an 8,000 dollar professional camera.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: MatthewCromer on January 16, 2008, 09:38:04 am
Quote
Hi Dottore,

I would much appreciate if you could inform us how you know this is the way they manufacture an 8,000 dollar professional camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167521\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I know for a fact this is incorrect.

In fact they do a full QA analysis of each professional camera and 'L' lens before it leaves the factory.  The problem is that there have been some training issues with the new QA team. . .

(http://members.optusnet.com.au/cyberite/monkey-3a.jpg)
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 16, 2008, 10:00:20 am
Matthew,

That ranges between humorous and insulting depending on one's point of view; but more to the point, let me ask you the same question: how do you know for fact that they do a full QA analysis on each camera and L lens? I wonder whether it isn't a sampling procedure, otherwise what seriously explains how mis-aligned viewfinder prisms would escape detection at the factory? It's not as if Canon is new to the manufacturing of these kind of csmeras.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Rob C on January 16, 2008, 11:42:00 am
Quote
Matthew,

That ranges between humorous and insulting depending on one's point of view; but more to the point, let me ask you the same question: how do you know for fact that they do a full QA analysis on each camera and L lens? I wonder whether it isn't a sampling procedure, otherwise what seriously explains how mis-aligned viewfinder prisms would escape detection at the factory? It's not as if Canon is new to the manufacturing of these kind of csmeras.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167544\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mark, at the end of the day, it doesn´t really matter WHICH department within the maunufacturer´s production line is at fault; what does matter is that there seems to be no worthwhile final inspection.

I worked for some years on the factory floor of R-R aero engines production;  final inspection was very strong, very RESPECTED. Perhaps that´s the difference in world production ethics: the accountants now get the respect.

Rob C
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on January 16, 2008, 11:45:16 am
Quote
Matthew,

That ranges between humorous and insulting depending on one's point of view; but more to the point, let me ask you the same question: how do you know for fact that they do a full QA analysis on each camera and L lens? I wonder whether it isn't a sampling procedure, otherwise what seriously explains how mis-aligned viewfinder prisms would escape detection at the factory? It's not as if Canon is new to the manufacturing of these kind of csmeras.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167544\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think the problem is profit... it shows itself in corner-cutting manufacturing technique.

Canon's profit is far more important than photography and the thoughts of you or I. Gone are the good old days of Leica, Zeiss, Hasselblad etc making super quality optics and cameras sometimes at a financial loss to show they are the best - and taking pride in the fact.

While professional photographers would like to believe that expensive 'Pro-end' cameras are meant for them .... the reality is that most are sold to amateurs (with more money than sense in many cases).

Canon, Nikon etc now tread a fine line between what is 'good enough' for the consuming masses and their share price.

Why did they say 'user error' was at the route of the 1D MkIII focus problem for three months? ..... to keep the cameras selling in an aggressive marketplace; you can fix them afterwards but you need to sell 'em first! (Does anyone really believe a company with millions of dollars to throw at a problem didn't identify the issue pretty quickly?)

Don't blame the monkeys, blame the accountants!
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: D White on January 18, 2008, 12:31:40 am
A contact I have at Canon Canada service indicates that there is a service bulletin on this issue.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 18, 2008, 09:52:11 am
Quote
A contact I have at Canon Canada service indicates that there is a service bulletin on this issue.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167908\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Good to know - here in Toronto Canon's facility is only a 45 minute congested, hair-raising drive West on our crippled infrastructure called "the 401". Anhow its within reach. But did they point to a place on their website where this service bulletin is posted? And did they say anything about how long they keep the camera to check it and fix if necessary? Of course they have two standards of service there depending on whether or not one is CPS.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: MatthewCromer on January 18, 2008, 12:23:58 pm
Quote
how do you know for fact that they do a full QA analysis on each camera and L lens?

Just a joke Mark!  I figure they aren't doing a full QA test  including inspecting images, because a 1.5 degree offset is glaringly obvious at first glance when looking at thumbnails of horizons or architectural shots.

I do think a full QA test of all pro cameras and lenses would be a good idea though, especially one with a signed "checklist" of inspection items and a MTF test chart in the box.

I hear that CZ does the MTF sheet with their pro lenses. . .

But the monkey picture was just some light-hearted humor.  Certainly it is not just Canon who is failing to do adequate QA of their products. . .
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 18, 2008, 12:41:12 pm
Fair enough Matthew. All this bantering though does raise a humour-neutral question about kind of QA they really do implement. I doubt they'd ever reveal it. I spoke to Canon Canada this morning, following upon guydon's post. They told me they are unaware of any service bulletin on this matter, but as the camera is under warranty they would inspect it for me with a one to two day turnaround. If they find it needs adjustment, they would want to keep it from two to three WEEKS depending on service volume at the time. If you are not CPS, that's Canon service for you. To keep in mind for those occasional "forks in the road" when one makes fundamental decisions about maintaining or switching systems. Of course it also depends on whether Nikon or the others are any better.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dottore on January 20, 2008, 11:19:13 pm
Quote
Hi Dottore,

I would much appreciate if you could inform us how you know this is the way they manufacture an 8,000 dollar professional camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167521\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

By reading e.g. patents in the area you learn that there are "pasive" and "active" methods, where active methods are those where actual alignment is made.  Pasive methods use various smart tricks with holes, rods, markers, etc. to assembly the widget, but no check is made.  

The text below is about sensor tilt, not angular misalignment.  But it is quite clear that "pasive methods" are very attractive to the manufacturer.

"For high cost/low volume cameras, the CCD is "actively aligned" to the lens. This means that each individual camera is adjusted to eliminate this tilt. Currently, this is a very expensive and time-consuming process which is impractical when manufacturing low cost/high volume cameras. Consequently, most lower cost digital cameras do not actively align the CCD. Instead, they typically mount the CCD to a very flat plate (with screws) and then mount the plate to the lens assembly. By controlling the flatness of the plate and CCD package, and the perpendicularity of the lens mount to the optical centerline, the resulting tilt can often be controlled to an acceptable degree. However, not only does the CCD plate adds cost and assembly time, but it still results in greater variation of lens/CCD tilt than can be tolerated in certain applications. "


So it is, I believie, with angular alignment.  it "can often be controlled to an acceptable degree".  Enough said.

There definitely is a qulity control after the camera is assembled.  A controller can see with naked eyes that the alignment is say, 2 degrees off, but he passes such a piece, until it is , say 5 degrees off.  After the camera is assembled adjusting would cost as much as a repair, and most people will never send it for repair.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dottore on January 20, 2008, 11:36:20 pm
Quote
I know for a fact this is incorrect.

In fact they do a full QA analysis of each professional camera and 'L' lens before it leaves the factory.  The problem is that there have been some training issues with the new QA team. . .

(http://members.optusnet.com.au/cyberite/monkey-3a.jpg)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=167537\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You probably should mean QC which is a part of the QA bureaucratic system.  Of course they do a QC of every camera and lens. And that QC sees the same thing we all see unless they employ blind people.  The problem is that companies can, and do, save money by simplifying the manufacturing, and then just asking "misalignment? what misaligment?"

Question is, is the camera build so that significantly better alignment by the service is even possible?
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 21, 2008, 08:52:56 am
Quote
By reading e.g. patents in the area you learn that there are "pasive" and "active" methods, where active methods are those where actual alignment is made.  Pasive methods use various smart tricks with holes, rods, markers, etc. to assembly the widget, but no check is made. 

The text below is about sensor tilt, not angular misalignment.  But it is quite clear that "pasive methods" are very attractive to the manufacturer.

"For high cost/low volume cameras, the CCD is "actively aligned" to the lens. This means that each individual camera is adjusted to eliminate this tilt. Currently, this is a very expensive and time-consuming process which is impractical when manufacturing low cost/high volume cameras. Consequently, most lower cost digital cameras do not actively align the CCD. Instead, they typically mount the CCD to a very flat plate (with screws) and then mount the plate to the lens assembly. By controlling the flatness of the plate and CCD package, and the perpendicularity of the lens mount to the optical centerline, the resulting tilt can often be controlled to an acceptable degree. However, not only does the CCD plate adds cost and assembly time, but it still results in greater variation of lens/CCD tilt than can be tolerated in certain applications. "
So it is, I believie, with angular alignment.  it "can often be controlled to an acceptable degree".  Enough said.

There definitely is a qulity control after the camera is assembled.  A controller can see with naked eyes that the alignment is say, 2 degrees off, but he passes such a piece, until it is , say 5 degrees off.  After the camera is assembled adjusting would cost as much as a repair, and most people will never send it for repair.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=168505\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

All of this is thoroughly unconvincing. It has no necessary bearing on or relevance to the issue of the kind of the quality control and quality assurance that Canon exercises in respect of the model 1DsMkIII. You made an unequivocal statement further back that there are no such processes for this model and I asked you to tell me how you know this. What you've said above is a pile of textbook information and inference that doesn't address the specific question.

And as for Matthew's point about whether such problems are correctable, the Canon rep who spoke to me over the phone last week told me that if they were to find a mismatch between the viewfinder image and the recorded image in my camera they can fix it. The only issue is the unacceptable amount of time over which they would keep the camera. Another poster in this thread seems to have had a satisfactory repair experience for the same issue from Canon in Australia, hence I would be inclined to believe what the Canon rep told me.

The remaining credibility issue in my mind is that the Canon employee I spoke with told me there is no service bulletin for this problem, whereas phiotoguydon further above said a Canon employee told him there is one. So there is contradictory "evidence" about whether the company has officially recognized the problem as generic enough for a service bulletin, or whether they have not. In either case, all these cameras are still under warranty and that is at least as good protection as a service bulletin, if one can leave their camera with Canon for weeks.

It is this aspect on which I would call Canon to account. While manufacturing errors and oversights are a fact of life we wish could be minimized (and at a cost they most likely can be), once it happens I think it behoves a company like Canon to ensure faster service for those people who paid over 8000 dollars and would face loss of use for several weeks. This is the aspect that "adds insult to injury" and is truly unacceptable.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: seanw on January 21, 2008, 11:00:38 am
My Mark III serial # 606xxx has this problem. It's very obvious - just line up anything with a straight edge using Live view and then look at what you see through the viewfinder. Or line something up through the viewfinder and then review the shot. There's no way to miss it and it doesn't require any complex testing to see it.

Anyone who has paid $8000 and actually owns this camera and has this problem would not suggest it was not a big deal. Nor would they try to suggest some kind of workaround. I did not measure the degree of tilt, but I don't care if it's off by .1 or 10 degrees, whatever it is, the fact is it is very obvious to the naked eye and therefore not acceptable.

I'll be contacting Canon to have it fixed. I understand mistakes happen so I won't get upset or hold it against them unless (or until)  I experience problems with Canon's customer service. Have never had to use them before so hopefully it will be painless.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 21, 2008, 12:19:36 pm
Every time there is another person highlighting this issue I haul out my camera and make another test shot. This morning's were OK. I think it is hard to test  unless the problem is VERY obvious or one can set-up near lab conditions. Lenses have some distortions, the target needs to be absolutely rectangular or square, one's ability to do the line-ups and observe them needs to be spot-on etc. So testing for this problem can be a bit hit or miss. In those circumstances such people probably don't suffer from it. So my two points here: (1) based on my experience so far, the defect itself seems to be non-systematic - some cameras having it, others not, and (2) finding it can be tricky unless it is quite obvious and repeatedly so.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: djgarcia on January 21, 2008, 12:44:50 pm
Mark, mine was visually very obvious if you have a line that should have been vertical or horizontal, probably 2-3 degrees off. If I had to measure it I couldn't care less. But the misalignment I had I wouldn't tolerate in a point-and-shoot.

It is inexcuasable, but having said that, if Canon is going to screw up the 1Ds3 then this is the way to do it because it's fixable and once fixed all is well. If it had been a design flaw, that would really have sucked.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: seanw on January 21, 2008, 03:13:06 pm
An update since this morning - I contacted Canon and they had never heard of this problem before... hmmmm... But when I asked how long to have it fixed was told it had been taking about 2 days to check the problem and then 7-10 to get it fixed. Sounded to me like they had been getting them in despite the attempt to sound surprised at hearing of the issue.

I'm guessing they just hate to admit an issue that they hope might be overlooked. That would save them money and negative press so I can't blame them. But I would think most people that use a Mark III are not your typical point and shoot casual user who might not see the issue.


Mark
- I would not worry about yours. It's very obvious and doesn't require any testing other than looking through the viewfinder and comparing the shot on the LCD. If your camera had the same issue it would be apparent. So rest easy you got a good one!
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 21, 2008, 03:44:52 pm
Sean, thanks - yes you're right - at this point I'm quite relaxed about it, but looking more generally at the situation as a whole, I can't help thinking Canon would do themselves a real PR favour by training their staff not to play dumb and just tell the truth. In the long run it pays, because then people could trust them. Each time they pull a stunt like this they erode the confidence of the very kind of customers that are important to them, while high-res full-frame is becoming an increasingly competitive market. From all the reports on numerous forums, unless it is the same handful of people reporting the same thing all over the place, this issue is more than just several cameras, but perhaps not an epidemic. Whatever, in these circumstances they should also extend themselves to assure those who need adjustments faster turnaround.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Wayne Fox on January 21, 2008, 10:14:49 pm
1Ds3 Serial # 603xxx, checked viewfinder alignment via Live view, a very, very slight difference.  Not enough that I'm concerned or worried about getting it adjusted.

Posted this just in case someone is trying to find an affected range of serial numbers.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Lester on January 21, 2008, 11:21:52 pm
Canon might have this problem fix, I tested my 1Ds Mk3, today, with a EcD ruled focusing screem and it is perfect, my camera serial # 606xxx
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: pfigen on January 22, 2008, 02:23:05 am
I got a 1DsMKIII on Saturday and checked the alignment today in the studio. There was about 1/10 of a millimeter lateral shift between the viewfinder and actual image and absolutely zero rotation. Pretty damn close. Love the ergonomics, LCD, speed, interface, etc, but I have to say that in preliminary testing with very sharp lenses, there is an almost imperceptable improvement in image detail, not enough to see in any real print or reproduction. Further testing this week; we'll see...
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on January 22, 2008, 05:26:55 am
Quote
Canon might have this problem fix, I tested my 1Ds Mk3, today, with a EcD ruled focusing screem and it is perfect, my camera serial # 606xxx
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=168703\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I tested and rejected four 1Ds MkIII bodies ranging from 606xxx to 609xxx. The problem seems to be random and widespread.

People all over the world are now being told different things by Canon i.e. "no known issue", "there is a bulletin", "it has been identified as prism misalignment" etc.

My guess is that the smokescreen of misinformation will buy time while they check and tweak the unsold stocks before dispatch.

A wholesale admission of fault would be embarrassing for Canon, though I actually think a bit of honesty at an early stage would restore customer confidence!

As they say .... "Sh*t happens!" - bite the bullet and get on with it Mr Canon.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 22, 2008, 09:04:59 am
Quote
A wholesale admission of fault would be embarrassing for Canon, though I actually think a bit of honesty at an early stage would restore customer confidence!

As they say .... "Sh*t happens!" - bite the bullet and get on with it Mr Canon.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=168747\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Exactly what I told them in a customer satisfaction survey they sent me by email yesterday. While I don't think I've been much affected with this current fault, one wants to be invested with a camera system backed by a company one can trust for honesty and responsiveness.

The very fact of how mute they've been despite the deluge of complaints on a number of forums demonstrates just how insular they are and what kind of corporate cultural makeover is needed at Canon. The service agent I consulted late last week told me they don't base their service policies on information from web forums. Well fine, forums would be less reliable than what they know first-hand, but the whole attitude reeks of insularity. A company more connected with their customers would respond openly to these concerns, deal with defects promptly and learn from it.

Canon has made marvelous technological breakthroughs in concepts, design and manufacturing, for which they deserve much credit. We are where we are partly due to their technological prowess, but there is more to the business than that. I think those of us reading this thread know all that - the question is whether Canon is reading us and do they?
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Dinarius on January 24, 2008, 12:36:07 pm
Well I'm glad I found this thread.  

Just spent the weekend in London shooting hotel interiors and aligning the camera to the doorframes, architraves or whatever (always checking that they were true - not always the case in old buildings) nearly drove me nuts.

The problem in my case (serial number 614xxx, for what it's worth) is slight, but annoying.

It should NOT be present in a camera of this expense.

D.

ps. I should add that I still had to correct a few images in ACR too. This costs time and pixels and can affect composition slightly. A pain in the butt.

Now that I've seen this thread, I'll get onto my dealer tomorrow.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: geotzo on January 25, 2008, 07:59:39 am
Just tested mine and it looks ok    thank God
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Dinarius on January 25, 2008, 01:17:31 pm
Quote
Just tested mine and it looks ok    thank God
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=169437\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

geotzo,

What serial number is yours? i.e. first three digits.

Thanks.

D.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: narikin on January 26, 2008, 12:10:26 pm
glanced at this thread and cynically thought maybe this was a case of nit picking nerdishness, till I tested mine (brand new USA model Jan 16th, 610xxx)  and guess what - its out by a noticeable amount... 0.3 to 0.35 degrees.

viewfinder set up on tripod with nice clean parallel line, but the actual image opened on computer drops down on right side.

seems they're still shipping them that way from Japan.

got to send mine back to Canon now. damn it.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Lester on January 26, 2008, 12:40:49 pm
Wow, people with 610xxx and 614xxx still have this problem. You guys must be unlucky or everyone with the problem is posting here. Canon should have this problem fix by now. I thought they did, since my is 606xx and there was no problem with being off. Canon better fix it, there are too many people bitching about it. We all know what happen to Kodak and their DSLR. Canon Service Center should go overtime and fix this problem for owners. Paying $8000 for a body and finding out it is out of wack is not a good thing.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 26, 2008, 01:23:32 pm
Quote
Wow, people with 610xxx and 614xxx still have this problem. You guys must be unlucky or everyone with the problem is posting here. Canon should have this problem fix by now. I thought they did, since my is 606xx and there was no problem with being off. Canon better fix it, there are too many people bitching about it. We all know what happen to Kodak and their DSLR. Canon Service Center should go overtime and fix this problem for owners. Paying $8000 for a body and finding out it is out of wack is not a good thing.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=169760\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you think you will ever get any over-time service from Canon, you are dreaming in Technicolor. Here in Canada Canon's service center has not admitted there is a problem, and they openly state they pay no heed to web Forums; but if you have a defective camera they will repair it under warranty provided you leave it with them for two to three weeks. I think my camera is OK and so far it seems that the image quality is excellent, but with this kind of corporate attitude and service turnaround it raises serious questions about whether to buy anything more in the future from Canon.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Dinarius on January 27, 2008, 12:56:07 pm
I've got a 614*** and I've just tested it again with the camera in portrait mode/format.

While I can't be absolutely sure, it looks OK.

The problem is that the bottom edge of the viewfinder, which becomes the right hand side edge when the camera is in portrait mode, is far from true itself. i.e. there is very slight barrel distortion because the viewfinder glass is less than perfect.

I shot a door frame and some kitchen cupboards. When I open this up in Bridge and drag the crop tool lines across the image, they align pretty perfectly with the verticals in the image.

However, ideally I'd like to be testing it with a grid screen fitted so that I can align the camera against one of the barrel-distortion free inner lines. I have one on order and I'll hold my fire until I test it with this fitted.

D.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 27, 2008, 12:59:00 pm
The barrel distortion is probably from your lens. I've observed the same and I agree it interferes with evaluating alignment. I got around that issue by correcting for barrel distortion in Camera Raw's lens correction tab before checking for any off-angle of straight lines in the image once rendered in Photoshop.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Dinarius on January 27, 2008, 01:02:52 pm
Hi Mark,

You may be right, but Canon's 50mm 2.5 Macro is considered to have zip distortion.

The viewfinder, on the other hand, is another matter.  

D.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: canon_uw on January 27, 2008, 03:20:20 pm
I posted this on DPR as well, but figured some people here might be able to add their input...(summary is - my viewfinder was tilted, sent to Canon, my viewfinder is still tilted)...

I received my camera with a serial number 606xxx, and after shooting a number of landscapes, noticed the tilt in the viewfinder.

I took these shots to show the variation - there's a 0.8deg tilt:
(http://www.carbonos.com/wp_post/1DsMisAlign.jpg)

I called Canon Irvine, they told me to bring the camera in. I dropped it off, and after 2.5 weeks (with no updates!), finally saw 'Completed' on the repair status page. I picked it up a couple days ago, and shot a new test image (lined up like the last one, but with grid paper and center crop. If people really want a through-the-viewfinder shot, I can do that too...but I was lazy at the time):

(http://www.carbonos.com/wp_post/1DsMisAlign2.jpg)

Canon didn't fix the problem! Instead of 0.8deg, it's between 0.5deg and 0.6deg.

What do I do now? It wasn't a particularly good feeling to not have the camera for over two weeks and miss out on shoots, and it doesn't appear as if Canon Irvine can even do the repair accurately. Is there anyone I can contact?
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dottore on January 27, 2008, 03:57:13 pm
Quote
Canon didn't fix the problem! Instead of 0.8deg, it's between 0.5deg and 0.6deg.

What do I do now? It wasn't a particularly good feeling to not have the camera for over two weeks and miss out on shoots, and it doesn't appear as if Canon Irvine can even do the repair accurately. Is there anyone I can contact?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170029\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's what I suspected: since these camera viewfinders and/or sensors are assembled using "passive" methods there is no possibility of positive adjustment. The repair shop can try to re-assembly it, but the result is more or less random.

If there was an actual tilt adjustment, someone would finally find out how to do it at home.  I don't care to prove it to anyone, you can believe it or not, but the evidence indicates that the angular alignment in the trio camera baseline-vewfinder-sensor is not adjustable.  Maybe we should admire the wonderful technology that allows less than 2 degrees accuracy without adjustment in most cases. Wow.....

I don't see any remedy to that situation, except screaming and trying to shame and ridicule all camera makers whose lemon cameras produce so obviously sloping horizons.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 27, 2008, 05:30:32 pm
Quote
That's what I suspected: since these camera viewfinders and/or sensors are assembled using "passive" methods there is no possibility of positive adjustment. The repair shop can try to re-assembly it, but the result is more or less random.

If there was an actual tilt adjustment, someone would finally find out how to do it at home.  I don't care to prove it to anyone, you can believe it or not, but the evidence indicates that the angular alignment in the trio camera baseline-vewfinder-sensor is not adjustable.  Maybe we should admire the wonderful technology that allows less than 2 degrees accuracy without adjustment in most cases. Wow.....

I don't see any remedy to that situation, except screaming and trying to shame and ridicule all camera makers whose lemon cameras produce so obviously sloping horizons.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170043\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You don't have to care to prove anything, but I don't have to care to believe anything you say either. I think your basic hypothesis is unproven and not credible. There is a consistency problem with assembly, QC and QA in Canon's factory because some of these cameras are defective in this respect and many others are not. There is also no consistency in repair experience, because we've had reports on this website of both successful and unsuccessful repairs. The one thing that does seem to be consistent almost everywhere is that unless you are a CPS client Canon's service arrangements are rotten.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 27, 2008, 05:41:04 pm
Quote
What do I do now?  Is there anyone I can contact?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170029\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, based on what you've said, and only if you are absolutely positive the problem is the camera and not the way you are testing it (to be sure of this have a second person whose technical skills are relevant and trustworthy verify it with you), you've reached the point where you need to get to Canon's operational centre and exert pressure. In your position and if I were totally sure of myself, I would send a very polite but stiff letter to the head of Canon's operation in the USA telling him in no uncertain terms why you have solid evidence that the behaviour of his company in respect of your camera is inadequate, incompetent and unworthy of their reputation. Give him a deadline to provide you with a camera that is as flawless as it should be for this model, and tell him if he fails, the same letter will be sent to the CEO of Canon in Japan, and if he fails you all the correspondence and the evidence will be re-posted on every photographic website worldwide that can possibly influence what cameras people buy. In Japan they take reputational issues very seriously, and you will get attention, most likely before you need to go that far.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 27, 2008, 05:42:45 pm
Quote
Hi Mark,

You may be right, but Canon's 50mm 2.5 Macro is considered to have zip distortion.

The viewfinder, on the other hand, is another matter.   

D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=169986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I didn't realise you were using that lens. But just to be sure, it may be an idea to double-check for this factor bu putting that lens on another similar body and see whether the appearance is the same or not.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: phila on January 28, 2008, 05:22:37 am
Quote
That's what I suspected: since these camera viewfinders and/or sensors are assembled using "passive" methods there is no possibility of positive adjustment.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170043\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well Canon Aust managed to do an exact adjustment to mine in under 24 hours!
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 28, 2008, 08:37:42 am
Quote
Well Canon Aust managed to do an exact adjustment to mine in under 24 hours!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170191\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Phila, may I ask, are you a professional photographer member of Canon Professional Services (CPS) or whatever the equivalent in Australia? If so, it could explain the fast service you got; if not, you are fortunate there.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: phila on January 28, 2008, 04:47:43 pm
Quote
Phila, may I ask, are you a professional photographer member of Canon Professional Services (CPS) or whatever the equivalent in Australia? If so, it could explain the fast service you got; if not, you are fortunate there.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170217\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes I am, but then again I'd be thinking that the overwhelming majority of MkIII buyers would be also. My last post was more to point out that the problem (where it occurs, it is obviously fairly random) can be successfully repaired, and quickly, as long as the Canon facility has their act together.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: CorySilken on January 28, 2008, 06:10:05 pm
My camera, s/n 614xxx, also appears to have a misaligned viewfinder. And I have a hard enough time getting the horizon straight even on a calm day with a properly aligned camera!

-C
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 28, 2008, 09:26:57 pm
Quote
Yes I am, but then again I'd be thinking that the overwhelming majority of MkIII buyers would be also. ......................as long as the Canon facility has their act together.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170363\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, right here in Toronto two other 1Ds3 owners I happen to know (and I) are not earning a living from photography. I think there are many advanced amateurs/prosumers who buy these cameras. But we mean nothing to Canon. In that sense they do NOT have their act together - at least in this corner of the world.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: djgarcia on January 28, 2008, 10:00:50 pm
I believe as part of the registration process Canon ships you an expedited service kit with special labels, regardless of CPS. I used it on my Mk II, and got my shutter replaced and camera returned within a week from me shipping it. Problem is they take a month or two to send you the registration kit ...
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on January 28, 2008, 10:33:29 pm
Quote
I believe as part of the registration process Canon ships you an expedited service kit with special labels, regardless of CPS. I used it on my Mk II, and got my shutter replaced and camera returned within a week from me shipping it. Problem is they take a month or two to send you the registration kit ...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170450\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Maybe in the USA they do - no evidence of such a thing in Canada that I've seen. Good to know about. Thanks.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: canon_uw on February 04, 2008, 05:39:34 pm
I called Canon Support again today, and one support representative went so far as suggesting that a tilted viewfinder was "within factory spec"! I still haven't received my registration packet with 'rush/expedite' stickers, but it would be a shame to have to immediately use them for an issue that should have already been taken care of ...
Quote
...you've reached the point where you need to get to Canon's operational centre and exert pressure. In your position and if I were totally sure of myself, I would send a very polite but stiff letter to the head of Canon's operation in the USA telling him in no uncertain terms why you have solid evidence that the behaviour of his company in respect of your camera is inadequate, incompetent and unworthy of their reputation.[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=170067\")
Mark - Are you referring specifically to the CEO? The only information I can find on divisional leaders is at [a href=\"http://www.usa.canon.com/templatedata/AboutCanon/ciwmgmgteam.html]Canon Management[/url], but I'm not sure where a letter might even be addressed?
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 04, 2008, 05:58:54 pm
My strategy in these situations is to start at the top and let them filter it down to the person who will take ownership of the issue.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: djgarcia on February 04, 2008, 06:44:36 pm
Well, here's the long story with my misaligned 1Ds3 ...

Shipped it to NJ on Tuesday morning Jan 15 at a cost of $130, that would be around $8 for the shipping, 122 for insurance . I'm in NYC, the NJ Factory Repair Center is about a couple hours drive tops but I'd have to take a day off from work which I can't at the moment.

I figured it would be delivered the next day, normal for the route. Nope, delivery exception. OK, so then on Thursday. Nope, delivery exception again, place closed for business (!!??). I called Canon and asked if they'd been closed on Thursday, nope, they were open. It took UPS 3 days to find the place, and the delivery address was different:

shipped to 100 Ridge Road, Jamesburg NJ
delivered to 100 Jamesburg Road, Monroe Township, NJ

After some irate calls and e-mails with UPS I did a Google search on the delivery address and came up with a thread from 2004 where somebody had had the exact same experience with their Canon camera, but apparently it ended up in the right place in the end. Turns out there's three different names for the same street (?). One of the thread posters even included the exact wording of the UPS delivery statement. Upon checking, the signer for the 2004 delivery was the same as mine! So I figured I was OK.

So now it takes Canon three days to acknowledge they have it, that there is indeed a problem, and it's been assigned to a tech who'll eventually get to it within 10 business days if nothing bad happens. Entry in Canon system logged as Jan 23.

I call on the 28th and ask if it can be expedited by the 31st, and they log the request. Finally on Feb 1st I get a shipping notification, it's Friday so overnight is Monday, today. Woo-hoo! It comes in.

I know what you're thinking, I check it out and it's still off, but no, I do a quick visual check on a tripod with my TV as subject and it lines up nicely in Live View when I line it up in the viewfinder, whereas before it was visibly off. Another Woo-hoo!

I go to take a few pictures and ... oh-oh ... the autofocus doesn't seem to be working right. In fact, the autofocus system is now an out-of-focus system. I try a couple other lenses, same thing. If I focus manually and try autofocus, it gets very visibly out of focus, and it gets fidgety, even on an easy targets with strong horizontal & vertical lines. I tried the micro-focus adjustment but it's too far off, plus it's obviously doing little hunting runs when it should have hit focus.

So I control my cool, call Canon, politely explain, and they will be e-mailing me a UPS shipping label and promise to fix it right away. They were very understanding and quick about getting the return done, so we'll see how long it takes to get that shipping label first. Sigh ... back to Canon.

Sorry for the long wind - will keep you posted.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: jjj on February 04, 2008, 07:19:56 pm
Quote
The one thing that does seem to be consistent almost everywhere is that unless you are a CPS client Canon's service arrangements are rotten.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170065\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sorry but my experience of Canon CPS here in the UK was pretty rotten. They promised 3 days. Then after a week said 'well it was 3 days from when we estimate repair' and then they took another 2 weeks.
3 weeks is a big difference from 3 days.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: seanw on February 05, 2008, 02:34:43 pm
Here's an update on my experience with Canon service center in NJ if anyone is interested.

I called Canon at the number listed on the warranty card and after describing the problem, I politely asked for them to pay the shipping. I did not think it fair (although it is their policy) to make me pay the shipping on a camera of this expense with an issue right out of the box. The Canon rep agreed and sent me a prepaid UPS label.
Total time from the day it shipped until I received it back was 14 days. They quoted 2 to review it and 7-10 to repair it not including the shipping time so it was in line with their quote. After some quick testing it appears the alignment problem has been fixed.
They listed "viewfinder not aligned with prism" under the examination details but under the service details it said "camera checks to factory specs, parallax adj." So I'm not exactly sure what they did, but in any case it's fixed. Overall painless except for the 14 days which seemed like an eternity. Luckily I had nothing crucial going on at the time.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: pfigen on February 05, 2008, 07:29:10 pm
I had my 1DsMKIII for 10 days when it completely failed with every frame filled from top to bottom with hundreds of parallel horizontal lines. I drove it to the Irvine service center where it's been for exactly one week. When I dropped it off they told me 3-5 working days, but as of this afternoon it had not been seen by a technician and they couldn't even give me an approximate timetable as to when someone might look at it. I would have just exchanged the camera if Samy's had another one, but the don't. Well, at least my viewfinder was aligned...
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Dinarius on February 08, 2008, 01:16:06 pm
Spent yesterday shooting interiors.

Something is definitely awry with my viewfinder too.

When the camera was in portrait format, I occasionally used the straight line bits of the focusing screen (the straight lines on the otherwise oval shape in the middle of the frame) to align verticals. They were bang on. However, the edges of the viewfinder did not tally with these settings. So, I think I may have a problem.

Oddly too, my 50mm macro was easier to get closer to parallel than my 17-40mm, even at 40mm. Very strange.

As I said previously, I'm still waiting for my grid focusing screen to confirm the problem either way, but it seems that it's there. Not good enough in an €6.5k camera.

D.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: pfigen on February 08, 2008, 09:38:30 pm
Apparently my 1DsMKIII is the first one in the US to need a sensor replaced. They had to order the part. Hopefully I'll have a camera by the middle of next week and hope they don't screw up the viewfinder registration in the process.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Stephen Starkman on February 08, 2008, 09:47:58 pm
Pfign,

What is the reason for the sensor replacement?

Stephen



Quote
Apparently my 1DsMKIII is the first one in the US to need a sensor replaced. They had to order the part. Hopefully I'll have a camera by the middle of next week and hope they don't screw up the viewfinder registration in the process.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: pfigen on February 09, 2008, 12:41:10 am
After ten days I started getting hundreds of parallel horizontal lines (on a horizontal frame) on every frame at every ISO. From day one, I noticed an occasional frame with lines across the frame at ISO 3200, but it was only a couple of frames and I chocked it up to high ISO weirdness. The Irvine service center has apparently determined that the sensor itself is bad and had to order one as they did not have one in stock yet. So far there is no reason given for why that might happen. I guess it's just my luck.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on February 09, 2008, 10:32:51 am
Quote
I noticed a couple of posts on DP preview and Northlight about problems people are noticing on their Canon 1ds Mark 3 that there is from a degree to 5 degrees tilt between what they are seeing on the viewfinder and what they get from the sensor or live view. The horizon seems to tilt and a correction ccw needs to be taken to line it up.

Being a portrait photographer, I don't think I would have noticed this and perhaps it was present in other DSLRs that I've had. On top of that I never print full frame 35mm anyway but prefer the 8x10 crop.

Has anyone else noticed this on their new or even their older DSLRs.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=166172\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well, it's now a month since I received my first Canon 1Ds MkIII.

Just under a month since I returned my FOURTH body which, like the other three, was suffering with a severe dose of "mis-alignment".

I have since heard about examples of the same model suffering with mis-focusing, shutters that die after a few thousand frames, coming back from Canon Service with the same mis-alignment fault, coming back from Canon Service with a whole new fault!.... and now lines appearing on images which necessitates sensor replacement!

Call me impetuous, but I've just told my dealer to cancel my order for the foreseeable future.

I have no inclination to pay over five grand Sterling to do Canons beta testing for their flagship product..... remind me again about the 1D MkIII - oh yes, mass recall due to faulty focusing mechanism...and much egg on many faces.

It is almost inevitable that the mighty get complacent and fall, with a very eager (and able) Nikon  stage left it looks like Canons reign is coming to an end....and this is coming from someone with over £15K invested in the Canon system.

Anyone for an omelette?
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: phila on February 10, 2008, 04:59:23 am
Quote
Well, it's now a month since I received my first Canon 1Ds MkIII.

Just under a month since I returned my FOURTH body which, like the other three, was suffering with a severe dose of "mis-alignment".

I have since heard about examples of the same model suffering with mis-focusing, shutters that die after a few thousand frames, coming back from Canon Service with the same mis-alignment fault, coming back from Canon Service with a whole new fault!.... and now lines appearing on images which necessitates sensor replacement!

Call me impetuous, but I've just told my dealer to cancel my order for the foreseeable future.

I have no inclination to pay over five grand Sterling to do Canons beta testing for their flagship product..... remind me again about the 1D MkIII - oh yes, mass recall due to faulty focusing mechanism...and much egg on many faces.

It is almost inevitable that the mighty get complacent and fall, with a very eager (and able) Nikon  stage left it looks like Canons reign is coming to an end....and this is coming from someone with over £15K invested in the Canon system.

Anyone for an omelette?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173517\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Or... you could have acknowledged that (unfortunately) we live in an imperfect world, had the first body v/f adjusted, and been happily shooting with it for the past month or more...
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on February 10, 2008, 05:54:31 am
Quote
Or... you could have acknowledged that (unfortunately) we live in an imperfect world, had the first body v/f adjusted, and been happily shooting with it for the past month or more...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173673\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Actually, in my case the camera is a tool - not a toy.

I do realise we live in an imperfect world, it seems Canon have produced a camera that fits in quite nicely!

I personally don't want the hassle of sending a new £5000+ camera off to a service center as soon as I receive it; I don't want the possibility of the 'fix' causing further problems; I don't want to be wondering .... "is today the day it packs in?" every time I pick it up.

Things do go wrong, it's the nature of complex manufacturing technique. But I need a camera I feel confident about using. I don't feel confident about this one!

Following the footsteps of the 1D3 focus circus it seems that something has gone pear-shaped in Canons quality control department... or maybe they're rushing to get cameras out of the door with insufficient R & D.

Whichever, my confidence (after 20 years of shooting Canon) is dented.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Dinarius on February 10, 2008, 07:29:10 am
Not connected to alignment, but may be a problem of sorts....though it could be me!

I use my Mk3 permanently:
 on a tripod;
 in manual mode;
 using both mirror lockup and 2 second self-timer.

Boring I know, but......

When I first took it out of the box a few weeks back, it was set to program mode. So, I set it to manual mode and set about setting both the mirror up and self-timer functions.

All was fine except for the self-timer function. Unlike in the 5D, I could not set the self-timer by holding down the ISO button and turning the shutter speed wheel. (Yes, I know that in the manual it says to hold down the the AF-Drive button and turn the main thumb wheel on the back of the camera. But, bear with me.)

I was just about to start a big shoot and was surrounded by clients and stylists etc. So, rather than read the manual, I phoned the dealer. He talked me down off the ledge and, deleting various settings, managed to set the 2-second self-timer using the 5D method, NOT the AF-Drive /Thumb Wheel method. It has been set to this for the last three weeks.

Just this morning, I wanted to shoot off a few test frames in various modes (at this stage I'm paranoid about this camera. The drip, drip launch, frankly, stinks.) and set it to Program mode. After shooting a few frames hand-held at high ISOs, I wanted to reset it to my usual Manual settings. I reset the ISO to 100, the mode to Manual. But, I could not reset the self-timer to 2 seconds using ISO/shutter speed wheel, only using the AF-Drive/Thumb wheel method. Fair enough, but why was it possible to do it using the 5D method too? Very, very odd.

Back to the alignment issue.....

Finally, I shot a few frames on a copy stand this morning and I definitely have a problem with alignment. I'm not going to wait for the grid screen to confirm it. I have printed off a shot I took which clearly shows it.

a. This problem was definitely created at the factory and cannot be corrected by a firmware update. It is a physical, construction flaw. Right?

b. I am terrified about what other problems might arise from having to dismantle this camera to correct this fault. For example, right now I have the cleanest sensor I have ever had. I want to keep it that way.

c. Everything I shoot involves either squaring off or vertical/horizontal alignment. So, a flawless viewfinder is really important to me. (My wonderful 5D was bang on.)

What should I do?

Thanks.

D.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 10, 2008, 08:46:35 am
If you've owned the camera within the return period, if it were me I would give it back to the dealer, get a full refund and order a new camera, or if you can, wait for the next comparable model from another manufaturer (this depends on your investment in lenses). If you are beyond the return period, you really have no choice but to send it back to Canon for "service". In this case you need to be polite and friendly with them, but at the same time very firm about the consequences of a negative experience. I would not hesitate to inform the management of the service center you are dealing with that this issue is being read possibly by hundreds of thousands of photographers per month, many people are now aware that this model may have generic quality assurance issues which have already tarnished Canon's technical reputation, and that unless the camera comes back to you within a time period and in a condition that is satisfactory to you, there will be escalation and considerably more negative publicity.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on February 10, 2008, 09:05:29 am
Quote
Not connected to alignment, but may be a problem of sorts....though it could be me!

I use my Mk3 permanently:
 on a tripod;
 in manual mode;
 using both mirror lockup and 2 second self-timer.

Boring I know, but......

When I first took it out of the box a few weeks back, it was set to program mode. So, I set it to manual mode and set about setting both the mirror up and self-timer functions.

All was fine except for the self-timer function. Unlike in the 5D, I could not set the self-timer by holding down the ISO button and turning the shutter speed wheel. (Yes, I know that in the manual it says to hold down the the AF-Drive button and turn the main thumb wheel on the back of the camera. But, bear with me.)

I was just about to start a big shoot and was surrounded by clients and stylists etc. So, rather than read the manual, I phoned the dealer. He talked me down off the ledge and, deleting various settings, managed to set the 2-second self-timer using the 5D method, NOT the AF-Drive /Thumb Wheel method. It has been set to this for the last three weeks.

Just this morning, I wanted to shoot off a few test frames in various modes (at this stage I'm paranoid about this camera. The drip, drip launch, frankly, stinks.) and set it to Program mode. After shooting a few frames hand-held at high ISOs, I wanted to reset it to my usual Manual settings. I reset the ISO to 100, the mode to Manual. But, I could not reset the self-timer to 2 seconds using ISO/shutter speed wheel, only using the AF-Drive/Thumb wheel method. Fair enough, but why was it possible to do it using the 5D method too? Very, very odd.

Back to the alignment issue.....

Finally, I shot a few frames on a copy stand this morning and I definitely have a problem with alignment. I'm not going to wait for the grid screen to confirm it. I have printed off a shot I took which clearly shows it.

a. This problem was definitely created at the factory and cannot be corrected by a firmware update. It is a physical, construction flaw. Right?

b. I am terrified about what other problems might arise from having to dismantle this camera to correct this fault. For example, right now I have the cleanest sensor I have ever had. I want to keep it that way.

c. Everything I shoot involves either squaring off or vertical/horizontal alignment. So, a flawless viewfinder is really important to me. (My wonderful 5D was bang on.)

What should I do?

Thanks.

D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173684\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm sorry to hear of your problems, you are obviously not alone.

I don't know about the timer setting.

The alignment fault is not one that has developed though misuse, or even correct use. It is a manufacturing issue.

I would return the the camera to my dealer for an exchange.

It all comes down to your relationship with your dealer... this is a good reason to pay a little extra and buy locally rather than from a 'box-shifter' on the web. It sounds like your dealer is on your side in this case.

I hope you're soon enjoying the camera, it is a great piece of kit (once the teething issues are sorted!)
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: djgarcia on February 10, 2008, 01:05:38 pm
Dinarius,

Yes, boring, and pretty much they way I also shoot, except I'm always in Av mode! I guess I am boring too and obviously shooting non-moving objects most of the time, except for the danged wind since I'm often shooting very closed-down and slower than 1/8th and leaves tend to be swaying around. Actually since I got my Zeiss Contax-N lenses I've been able to shoot without having to stop down, which has been great.

One thing I miss with the 1Ds3 that I had in the 1Ds2 is that you cannot use self-timer if you want silent mode and viceversa. I'll give your "5D self-timer mode" a try when I get my 1Ds3 back tomorrow. Can you supply specific directions?

I mentioned earlier that when I sent mine in to get the parallax adjustment made (their terminology) I spent $130 on shipping / insurance, it took three days for UPS to deliver within a two hour driving range, Canon actually did fix that in about two weeks, but they whacked the autofocus.

I called about the AF getting wacked on last Monday late afternoon when I received it back. They e-mailed me a shipping label Tuesday afternoon and I ran the package to the pick-up place. UPS delivered by 9:45 the next morning (Wednesday). I got the Accepted status from Canon Thursday morning and the Completed and Shipped on Friday. So tomorrow UPS delivers and hopefully I'll be back in action. So what took two+ weeks first time now took just under 1 week.

Let's hope everything is up to specs ...
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Dinarius on February 10, 2008, 01:23:09 pm
Thanks for the words of support guys.

I'm going to go to my dealer tomorrow morning. I'll let you know what happens.

Basically, I don't have a problem with the camera being repaired. It's the consequences of it being dismantled that terrify me. This camera was almost certainly assembled by a guy in a bunny suit, in a clean-room, somewhere in Japan. Then it was subjected to some kind of quality control and testing.

Now, it's going to opened up on a desktop, by a guy in Canon UK earing £350 a week, whose only concern is to get through as many units a day as his line manager tells him too. S**t!!!

Canon should be recalling these cameras and replacing them. Period.

This entire launch really does stink.

My advice to anyone intending to buy a 1Ds Mklll is to say to the dealer that you are aware of the auto-focus and alignment issues and that, if your camera comes with these faults, you want a replacement NOT a repair.

D.

ps....

digarcia, on the 5D, with the camera in Manual mode, to set the 2 second self-timer option you hold down the ISO button and turn the shutter speed when until the number '2' appears in the screen. My Mk3 did that too after my dealer talked me through it, but it's not doing it now. I'm not saying it's a fault - not at all, the method described in the manual works fine - I'm just curious as to why it has stopped doing it.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 10, 2008, 03:54:58 pm
Quote
My advice to anyone intending to buy a 1Ds Mklll is to say to the dealer that you are aware of the auto-focus and alignment issues and that, if your camera comes with these faults, you want a replacement NOT a repair.

D.

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In this country (Canada) it would be the norm for a high-end dealer to take back merchandise within a window of 14 to 30 days from purchase, provided the customer keeps all the packaging. The one sure way of keeping it out of the repair shop is to get it replaced with a new one, but I understand from my dealer here in Toronto that the waiting list is still about the same as when the camera first shipped - as more get supplied more get ordered, hence the backlog continues. It would be interesting to know the ratio of trouble-free to troublesome 1Ds3 units Canon has produced so far - on these Forums one would tend to hear more about problems than about something as uneventful as the camera working properly. Nonetheless for an 8000 dollar piece of equipment the problems should really be few and far between. So far it seems as if mine is OK, but my interest in this issue stems simply from the fact of ownership and the potential for having to deal with the service set-up here should anything go wrong.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: jeffok on February 10, 2008, 10:07:46 pm
Quote
In this country (Canada) it would be the norm for a high-end dealer to take back merchandise within a window of 14 to 30 days from purchase, provided the customer keeps all the packaging. The one sure way of keeping it out of the repair shop is to get it replaced with a new one, but I understand from my dealer here in Toronto that the waiting list is still about the same as when the camera first shipped - as more get supplied more get ordered, hence the backlog continues. It would be interesting to know the ratio of trouble-free to troublesome 1Ds3 units Canon has produced so far - on these Forums one would tend to hear more about problems than about something as uneventful as the camera working properly. Nonetheless for an 8000 dollar piece of equipment the problems should really be few and far between. So far it seems as if mine is OK, but my interest in this issue stems simply from the fact of ownership and the potential for having to deal with the service set-up here should anything go wrong.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=173796\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, my 1DsIII is working flawlessly and I'm dumbfounded. I checked the alignment after I read these posts and it's fine. Focus works good too. Try as I might, look as hard as I can, I can't find anything wrong with the damn camera! Must be something wrong with me... maybe I'm just not looking hard enough, or my measurement instruments aren't sufficiently sensitive.

Wait a minute! I do tend to spend a lot of time "taking pictures" with the camera which doesn't leave much time to find the flaws. That's it! Guess the problem is me after all...
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 10, 2008, 10:22:02 pm
Jeffok, good for you and good for me and let us hope our cameras keep performing well - we don't need to look for trouble - we'll know it if it happens. That's not the really significant point of this thread, or the others on this Forum and in several others. I also own an original Canon 1Ds. It's built like the Rock of Gilbralter and never given me a bit of trouble. In fact, when that model, and its successor the 1DsMkII, came out, I don't recall ever seeing the rash of complaints about performance and construction issues that we've seen with the 1DMkIII and the 1DsMkIII. It seems as if something has qualitatively changed at Canon, and it shakes confidence relative to how things were only five years ago. That's the crux of the matter.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: jeffok on February 10, 2008, 10:48:56 pm
Quote
Jeffok, good for you and good for me and let us hope our cameras keep performing well - we don't need to look for trouble - we'll know it if it happens. That's not the really significant point of this thread, or the others on this Forum and in several others. I also own an original Canon 1Ds. It's built like the Rock of Gilbralter and never given me a bit of trouble. In fact, when that model, and its successor the 1DsMkII, came out, I don't recall ever seeing the rash of complaints about performance and construction issues that we've seen with the 1DMkIII and the 1DsMkIII. It seems as if something has qualitatively changed at Canon, and it shakes confidence relative to how things were only five years ago. That's the crux of the matter.
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Mark, obviously some people have real issues to deal with. Sometimes they have to do with the camera. But the purpose of my post was to bring a bit of balance back to this long thread. I understand some people feel that measuring a 0.5 degree or even a 1.5 degree error is something they themselves can do accurately. But I also think it's fair to suggest that measurement error may well be the cause here in some cases (not all).

This is a very sophisticated instrument and while I am not making excuses for Canon, I am saying that absolute perfection (zero defects) in every way every time is exceedingly difficult. The question is, at what point is an issue considered "suboptimal" versus a "flaw".

I was struck by the fellow who felt he had to send 4 cameras back to Canon because of this alignment problem. Either Canon have a massive QC problem to fix and a potential ugly PR fiasco to manage (especially with working pros), or they have an intermittent problem with a few cameras and need to tighten up their QC procedures. I think your question on how many people actually have this problem is relevant but you're not likely to get a representative sample.

Reading this thread, one would get the impression it is significant and frequent issue. I'm not so sure it's as bad a problem as we are hearing given that I believe some of these "issues" may have more to do with measurement error and a certain hypersensitivity to perceived flaws. But then maybe I am too generous to Canon, being one of the "lucky ones".
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 10, 2008, 11:00:21 pm
Jeffolk, this is all well put. I know three other people here in Toronto having zero problems with this camera (including me that makes 4) as well, so sure - hard to tell what the overall situation is and as I mentioned, web forums are more likely to focus on issues rather than "business as usual" - or what should be as usual. But all that said, the more I read the more I get an impression that there is a new kind of situation at the manufacturing end. It would enhance my confidence to be somehow proven wrong.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mike Chini on February 11, 2008, 12:55:50 am
When I bought my 5D (from the very first batch that shipped), I went through 2 bodies in the first week and was finally satisfied with the third.  The first body had stuck pixels at every ISO.  The second, more stuck pixels and a loose CF door.  I think today's DSLR market is extremely competitive and that Canon, as well as Nikon and others, really push these things out the door as soon as they're ready (barely).  It seems every time there's a new DSLR, there's a 3 month window of minor problems after which everything goes smoothly.  After the problems I had with the 5D, I realized this is just the way things are nowadays and I try to avoid the latest technology for a few months at the very least.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: pfigen on February 11, 2008, 02:27:09 am
What none of us know is how many 1DsMKIIIs have been sold in North America and how many of these have the problems we've been discussing. I know that Samy's would have taken my camera back after only ten days, but they didn't have one to replace it with. As far as I can tell from talking to people there, they've only received 30-50 cameras, which is not a lot for the largest store west of the Mississippi. We also have no idea how many people have had problems and just sent them in for service but never talked about it online. Either this is just an irregular blip on Canon's radar screen or it's a sign of some serious quality control problems. Unfortunately, it's too soon to tell.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on February 11, 2008, 01:30:18 pm
Quote
Mark, obviously some people have real issues to deal with. Sometimes they have to do with the camera. But the purpose of my post was to bring a bit of balance back to this long thread. I understand some people feel that measuring a 0.5 degree or even a 1.5 degree error is something they themselves can do accurately. But I also think it's fair to suggest that measurement error may well be the cause here in some cases (not all).

This is a very sophisticated instrument and while I am not making excuses for Canon, I am saying that absolute perfection (zero defects) in every way every time is exceedingly difficult. The question is, at what point is an issue considered "suboptimal" versus a "flaw".

I was struck by the fellow who felt he had to send 4 cameras back to Canon because of this alignment problem. Either Canon have a massive QC problem to fix and a potential ugly PR fiasco to manage (especially with working pros), or they have an intermittent problem with a few cameras and need to tighten up their QC procedures. I think your question on how many people actually have this problem is relevant but you're not likely to get a representative sample.

Reading this thread, one would get the impression it is significant and frequent issue. I'm not so sure it's as bad a problem as we are hearing given that I believe some of these "issues" may have more to do with measurement error and a certain hypersensitivity to perceived flaws. But then maybe I am too generous to Canon, being one of the "lucky ones".
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Jeffok,

As the fellow who returned four of these bodies due to mis-alignment, I have to have to say that there was no 'felt' about it, no 'shall I keep it and save the hassle?', no 'I can live with it' .... the cameras were well beyond both my level of flaw tolerance AND the guy who owns the shop that supplied them!

WE compared all four in the shop next to each other under the same conditions and came across varying degrees of image rotation. My dealer remarked "I wouldn't expect that from a £350 amateur camera!".

The serials ranged randomly from 606xxx to 609xxx.

We had £25,000 of cameras on a table in front of us and not a single one worked well enough to be described as usable in a professional environment. They all went back to Canon as D.O.A.

I'm not here to knock Canon, they seem to be doing that pretty comprehensively themselves.

Unless you never photograph architecture, packshots, horizons or anything with prominent vertical or horizontal lines, or you never put the camera on a tripod and compare your screen image to the viewfinder.... maybe the flaw won't ever bother you.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Dinarius on February 11, 2008, 02:01:10 pm
Took my camera back to my dealer today. I had images of graph paper shot on a copy stand which I gave him. I also returned all packaging.

He gave me demo model to tide me over (also mis-aligned) until he speaks to Canon.

I suspect that the number of flawed cameras is far greater than is apparent. After all, the process is highly mechanized, so the idea that the problem is arising randomly seems strange. Of course, if there are a few assembly lines producing cameras, the duds might be coming from just one of those.

By the way, a quick way to check your alignment.....

1. Align one side of the viewfinder against something - a door frame, or whatever.

2. When you're *sure* they are as parallel as they can be, turn on Live View.

Is it parallel in Live View? If not, you have a problem.

Alternatively, do it in reverse. Align using Live View (I had to resort to this with both cameras when shooting. I got sick of using the Straighten Tool in ACR4 - if Live View isn't parallel, your sensor is misaligned!) with a parallel and then look in the viewfinder. Still parallel?

Canon's traditional market of Press and Sports have no use for this. I suspect that that's why this issue isn't explosive.

D.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 11, 2008, 02:48:06 pm
Quote
Took my camera back to my dealer today. I had images of graph paper shot on a copy stand which I gave him. I also returned all packaging.

He gave me demo model to tide me over (also mis-aligned) until he speaks to Canon.

I suspect that the number of flawed cameras is far greater than is apparent. After all, the process is highly mechanized, so the idea that the problem is arising randomly seems strange. Of course, if there are a few assembly lines producing cameras, the duds might be coming from just one of those.

By the way, a quick way to check your alignment.....

1. Align one side of the viewfinder against something - a door frame, or whatever.

2. When you're *sure* they are as parallel as they can be, turn on Live View.

Is it parallel in Live View? If not, you have a problem.

Alternatively, do it in reverse. Align using Live View (I had to resort to this with both cameras when shooting. I got sick of using the Straighten Tool in ACR4 - if Live View isn't parallel, your sensor is misaligned!) with a parallel and then look in the viewfinder. Still parallel?

Canon's traditional market of Press and Sports have no use for this. I suspect that that's why this issue isn't explosive.

D.
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Yes and no - perhaps! You may be on to something about the assembly lines. It is conceivable that there is more than one assembly line, something happened on one of them, quality assurance testing is probably confined to a sampling procedure (which should not be the case for an 8000 item) and the cameras were shipped without Canon knowing there was a problem until customers started complaining or until they themselves discovered it in a random check- if they did. While Carl dw's account seemed hard to fathom at first reading, in the context of this explanation it could make sense - perhaps his dealer received a group of units off the same line - but we don't know how the serial numbering fits in.

I don't believe Canon's traditional market is overwhelmingly sports and press - there are all kinds of photographers making all kinds of images using these cameras - obviously from the feedback. It probably hasn't been "explosive" because it is also conceivable based on this explanation that the number of defective units is not a large portion of the total production to date. That doesn't make it easier or more acceptable for the affected customers, or any more acceptable in general.

The worst part, however, is that after all this discussion on web forums about defective 1Ds3's, Canon refuses to acknowledge web forum discussion as  anything to which they should pay attention (one of their phone reps told me as much) and they are playing "hear no evil, see no evil and speak no evil". Even if say only 5% of the cameras were defective, and even if they don't believe there is a large problem, as a matter of good PR and in their own long-term interest, they owe the photographic community an explanation and some assurance about rapid remediation where the issues arise. Customers have no use for corporate insularity and disregard, but a lot of time for some down-to-earth candour and honesty. I'd like to believe that most customers are reasonable enough to forgive earnest companies for mistakes to which they admit and then promptly fix - properly. When we hear about the range of issues that have surfaced, even those of us with cameras that are now working well can be concerned about whether this performance will be sustained. Based on my experience with the 1Ds, this is something about which I never thought I would need to concern myself. It is disconcerting.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Kenneth Sky on February 11, 2008, 03:32:15 pm
Am I going daft or was this same form of corporate arrogance exhibited by Canon when they intoduced the ipF5000 printer and the 1DMkIII? I know a lot of Canon users have a lot of money invested in lenses and when they produce a good copy the results can be stunning but how much abuse can you guys take? Does it take a class action law suit for Canon to own up to errors? I am constantly amazed at the performance of a world class company like Canon. I had a private conversation with a retailer in Toronto who believes the 1DMkIII is "dead in the water" because of the way professional photographers were treated when the initial problems surfaced.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mike Chini on February 11, 2008, 08:05:17 pm
Quote
Yes and no - perhaps! You may be on to something about the assembly lines. It is conceivable that there is more than one assembly line, something happened on one of them, quality assurance testing is probably confined to a sampling procedure (which should not be the case for an 8000 item) and the cameras were shipped without Canon knowing there was a problem until customers started complaining or until they themselves discovered it in a random check- if they did. While Carl dw's account seemed hard to fathom at first reading, in the context of this explanation it could make sense - perhaps his dealer received a group of units off the same line - but we don't know how the serial numbering fits in.

I don't believe Canon's traditional market is overwhelmingly sports and press - there are all kinds of photographers making all kinds of images using these cameras - obviously from the feedback. It probably hasn't been "explosive" because it is also conceivable based on this explanation that the number of defective units is not a large portion of the total production to date. That doesn't make it easier or more acceptable for the affected customers, or any more acceptable in general.

The worst part, however, is that after all this discussion on web forums about defective 1Ds3's, Canon refuses to acknowledge web forum discussion as  anything to which they should pay attention (one of their phone reps told me as much) and they are playing "hear no evil, see no evil and speak no evil". Even if say only 5% of the cameras were defective, and even if they don't believe there is a large problem, as a matter of good PR and in their own long-term interest, they owe the photographic community an explanation and some assurance about rapid remediation where the issues arise. Customers have no use for corporate insularity and disregard, but a lot of time for some down-to-earth candour and honesty. I'd like to believe that most customers are reasonable enough to forgive earnest companies for mistakes to which they admit and then promptly fix - properly. When we hear about the range of issues that have surfaced, even those of us with cameras that are now working well can be concerned about whether this performance will be sustained. Based on my experience with the 1Ds, this is something about which I never thought I would need to concern myself. It is disconcerting.
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Well, I'm in the market for a new camera and am seriously considering the 1ds3 but considering all of the problems out there - I'm holding off...
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: jeffok on February 11, 2008, 09:10:39 pm
Quote
Well, I'm in the market for a new camera and am seriously considering the 1ds3 but considering all of the problems out there - I'm holding off...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174089\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
A statement like "all of the problems" is one reason why large consumer electronics manufacturers tend to discount the comments on forums like this. Another post I read somewhere said the 1DsIII is "junk" or some similar word. The reality is that, so far, there is one "problem" with "some" owners and while their problem is lamentable and appears serious, I wouldn't necessarily hold off purchasing a camera just because of what you read in this forum. I would however check out the camera thoroughly at the store before you buy it- that way at least you'll have some assurance that all is well.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: djgarcia on February 11, 2008, 09:52:33 pm
OK, here's my final report on my "piece of junk" 1DsIII .

I got it back within five days of dropping it off to get repaired the focusing problem introduced while the paralax fix repair was performed. The paralax problem has been fixed to my satisfaction - visually things look aligned to me, I'm not getting a micrometer out and checking for 100% performance. Focusing is also working fine again, though I'm not making any ultra-precision tests.

While I was checking stuff, I decided to make some measurements of the actual image coverage.

In an image size roughly 12.125" * 17.75" on my monitor (there's some slight aspect ratio distortion introduced by the monitor) I measured about 1/8th missing on the right, 1/16th on the left, 1/8th on the top, and 1/32 on the bottom. Dividing the sum of the missing areas by the total image area I come up with roughly 97.7% or so of the actual recorded image - let me know if I'm off. Knowing I'm a little biased to the top and right I can take it into consideration if I'm in a real "precision minded" (for a landscaper) situation. I realize if I were shooting a film camera I would likely have less accuracy than this, never mind if I'm shooting slides to show unless I re-mount them on plastic mounts (I recently dumped a Weiss mounter & several boxes of mounts ).

So, my dream-turned-nightmare appears to be back in dream mode. Now I have to wait for the week-end to really try this out on the field but unless something bad turns up I'm a happy camper with my junk 1DsIII. Hallelujah!
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Lester on February 11, 2008, 10:43:19 pm
I agree with you 100% I got a 1ds Mk3 and it does not have any problem with it. It is working perfect. There are too many people nick pick at everything, a true photogragher has to make things works sometime, even if it might not be perfect, until repaired, things happens. The reason why large comsumer electronics manuf. don't believe everything on the forum is that many of the post is by other manufacturers using their hire gun to talk bad about their products.  And if you think your 1Ds Mk3 is junk, just sell it to someone else, people is waiting in line to get one.



Quote
A statement like "all of the problems" is one reason why large consumer electronics manufacturers tend to discount the comments on forums like this. Another post I read somewhere said the 1DsIII is "junk" or some similar word. The reality is that, so far, there is one "problem" with "some" owners and while their problem is lamentable and appears serious, I wouldn't necessarily hold off purchasing a camera just because of what you read in this forum. I would however check out the camera thoroughly at the store before you buy it- that way at least you'll have some assurance that all is well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174107\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Stephen Starkman on February 12, 2008, 12:08:18 am
Quote
I agree with you 100% I got a 1ds Mk3 and it does not have any problem with it. It is working perfect. There are too many people nick pick at everything, a true photogragher has to make things works sometime, even if it might not be perfect, until repaired, things happens. The reason why large comsumer electronics manuf. don't believe everything on the forum is that many of the post is by other manufacturers using their hire gun to talk bad about their products.  And if you think your 1Ds Mk3 is junk, just sell it to someone else, people is waiting in line to get one.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174118\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Lester,
The problem is very real for those who were delivered defective cameras. And it appears not to be isolated to only one or two people. Most people I know who have this camera are perfectly satisfied. I know of one photographer who exchanged his camera for a replacement due to  viewfinder mis-alignment. I can assure you, after seeing his test photos, it was hardly nit-picking. Even more so, as MarkDS has pointed out, here in Canada a repair will take over two weeks, start to finish. This again is not a nit-picking issue for most photographers.

As Canon Canada refused to replace the defective camera (thank goodness for dealers who value their clients), it quite logically leads to questions regarding customer service and overall quality control.

I fail to see the "hired guns" anywhere in this picture, at least on this forum, in this discussion.

Stephen
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mike Chini on February 12, 2008, 12:40:34 am
I just think there are enough problems out there to justify waiting a bit.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Josh-H on February 12, 2008, 03:47:06 am
Quote
I just think there are enough problems out there to justify waiting a bit.
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I SERIOUSLY  doubt it.

Just 2 be sure
I checked my 1DS MKIII this evening and its perfect - spot on. No problems whatsoever with Live view, geometry or anything else. I have done about a half dozen shoots so far - and everyone has been a joy.

Spoke to 4 other local shooters with 1DS MKIII's - same story - no problems and a joy to use.

I think u will find its the smallest minotiry making the largest noise [as usual].

Shoot over to DPReview [if u dare!] Where I have read several 'autofocus, over exposure issue thread in the Nikon Forums - there are a small minority making a noise there about their new bodies - and they are screaming pretty loud. Everyone else seems perfectly happy. No direct comparison.. just an observation.

Edit - forgot to add - my serial Number 614XXX

Tried again to find a geometry fault - even photographing graph paper. And its spot on.

Used a 50mm F1.2L Lens at F8 to try and avoid lens issues.

What are people testing this with? Wide angles and at what aperture?

I can show distortion - but its lens distortion using a 16-35mm F2.8L. And that is lens based - not camera.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on February 12, 2008, 05:16:40 am
Quote
I SERIOUSLY  doubt it.

Just 2 be sure
I checked my 1DS MKIII this evening and its perfect - spot on. No problems whatsoever with Live view, geometry or anything else. I have done about a half dozen shoots so far - and everyone has been a joy.

Spoke to 4 other local shooters with 1DS MKIII's - same story - no problems and a joy to use.

I think u will find its the smallest minotiry making the largest noise [as usual].

Shoot over to DPReview [if u dare!] and have a look at the Nikon Forums - there are a small minority making a noise there about their new bodies - and they are screaming pretty loud. Everyone else seems perfectly happy. Just some food for thought...

Edit - forgot to add - my serial Number 614XXX

Tried again to find a geometry fault - even photographing graph paper. And its spot on.

Used a 50mm F1.2L Lens at F8 to try and avoid lens issues.

What are people testing this with? Wide angles and at what aperture?

I can show distortion - but its lens distortion using a 16-35mm F2.8L. And that is lens based - not camera.
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Mike Chini is absolutely right in my opinion.

I've tried and rejected FOUR myself. I'd like the camera to work and give me confidence that it will continue that way, at present it doesn't. I've used a 1Ds MkII for three years without a hint of a fault ...an EOS 1n before that.

There is undoubtedly a problem with quality control or design, personally seeing the same fault to varying degrees on FOUR bodies with widely differing serials is enough for me to come to the same conclusion as Mike - let them sort it out before taking the plunge.

Like most large corporations, Canon's business model is designed for growth in what is becoming a more competitive market (i.e. Nikon) they have to get the boxes out of the door and something has to give.... something they can maybe get away with addressing after the first feeding frenzy of sales.

To all you guys n gals out there who've got a 1Ds MkIII that to your eyes works perfectly - "Great!" I am pleased for you (whether it's actually perfect or simply doesn't effect your line of work) it is what I had hoped for as I passed the dealer my credit card back in early January.....

I would appreciate it if you could use the cameras as much as possible over the next few months to try and identify any other quality issues that might be lurking before I part with my money again!

Am I on Nikons payroll, dissing the uber-camera to dent Canons already tarnished reputation? - if I am they are a month behind with my pay cheque!!
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Ted Steppan on February 12, 2008, 11:51:41 pm
Just wanted to add my 1Ds Mark III to the list of mis-aligned cameras.  Serial number 615XXX.  I'll be sending mine in for repair next week.  

Unless you own (or have owned) one of these defective cameras, I don't think you can properly judge whether those of us complaining are nit-picking or not.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: pfigen on February 13, 2008, 12:31:00 am
I spoke with Chris Canada at Canon Irvine today and he said that they should be finishing my camera tomorrow, so hopefully I'll get it back Thursday. According to him, they've only seen three 1DsMKIIIs so far in Irvine, and have not seen any cameras with viewfinder alignment, but then, we don't seem to have too many cameras out here yet.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: canon_uw on February 13, 2008, 12:56:26 am
Quote
According to him, they've only seen three 1DsMKIIIs so far in Irvine, and have not seen any cameras with viewfinder alignment, but then, we don't seem to have too many cameras out here yet.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174441\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Then he lied to you (whether or not he meant to) - mine was in there, and they didn't fix the issue - see my earlier post in this thread...

Please let me know if yours is fixed! I've needed the camera too much to be sending it without knowing if they can actually correct the problem on the second try...

Edit to add angry face smiley
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: pfigen on February 13, 2008, 02:46:58 am
I have no idea why he would lie on purpose, although I find it almost impossible to believe that a CPS representative would NOT know about any 1DsMKIII camera in for any type of repair. You've gotta believe that they all talk to each other about what problem each is taking in, especially when you've got such a new model. He did say he had read about the alignment problem on one of the forums. Has it been discussed anywhere else in as much detail? I can only hope that in dismantling my camera and putting Humpty back together again, they don't screw something else up. I guess I'll know in a couple of days.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on February 13, 2008, 08:39:32 am
Quote
I noticed a couple of posts on DP preview and Northlight about problems people are noticing on their Canon 1ds Mark 3 that there is from a degree to 5 degrees tilt between what they are seeing on the viewfinder and what they get from the sensor or live view. The horizon seems to tilt and a correction ccw needs to be taken to line it up.

Being a portrait photographer, I don't think I would have noticed this and perhaps it was present in other DSLRs that I've had. On top of that I never print full frame 35mm anyway but prefer the 8x10 crop.

Has anyone else noticed this on their new or even their older DSLRs.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=166172\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

"Canon admits fault?" - Title on the front of this weeks BJP magazine.

Has anyone read page 8 of this weeks British Journal of Photography? (V155 N7672)

A half page article titled "More grief for Canon" accompanied by a nice picture of a 1Ds MkIII.

I quote....  [span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\']'We are aware of some issues relating to the viewfinder alignment,' a Canon spokeswomen tells BJP. 'The issues are currently under investigation. If any customers are experiencing such issues we are asking them to take their camera to their local service department for checking.' Canon says it will release more information about the problem at a later stage.
[/span]

When they update the page on www.bjp-online.com to this weeks issue you should be able to read the whole article.

So, are will still nit-picking, unrealistic photographers who don't understand that we're not living in a perfect world? - Looks like the "hired guns" were actually just photographers wanting to get what they'd paid for ..... what do you think Lester?


Quote
I agree with you 100% I got a 1ds Mk3 and it does not have any problem with it. It is working perfect. There are too many people nick pick at everything, a true photogragher has to make things works sometime, even if it might not be perfect, until repaired, things happens. The reason why large comsumer electronics manuf. don't believe everything on the forum is that many of the post is by other manufacturers using their hire gun to talk bad about their products.  And if you think your 1Ds Mk3 is junk, just sell it to someone else, people is waiting in line to get one.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174118\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: keith_cooper on February 13, 2008, 09:32:42 am
Thanks for that info - I just happened to call Canon at Elstree this morning, since I might be working near there later in the month, and could drop the camera off for adjustment.

They said it would take 3-4 days and since I don't live nearby, they would courier it back to me.

Mine is 0.4 degrees out, which doesn't impinge on enough work that I wanted to get it sorted immediately.  It rates as a mild annoyance that I can usually work around, just I'd rather not ;-)

And lest the 'fanclub' think I'm moaning too much, I still rate it as the best camera I've ever regularly used :-) :-)

bye for now

Keith Cooper
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: francois on February 13, 2008, 10:04:16 am
FWIW, I just receveid the latest issue of french mag Chasseur d'Image and on the EOS 1DS Mk3 review, they clearly say that a misalignment is present on the tested copy. They also say that this is quite frequent even on high end models.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: pfigen on February 13, 2008, 01:40:03 pm
"FWIW, I just receveid the latest issue of french mag Chasseur d'Image and on the EOS 1DS Mk3 review, they clearly say that a misalignment is present on the tested copy. They also say that this is quite frequent even on high end models."

While it seems quite obvious that people are having alignment problems with the new camera, it's not so obvious that this is a common occurence on high end cameras in general. This is the third generation of full frame 1 series cameras from Canon and I'm pretty sure the MKIII is the only one generating these types of complaints. It's the type of thing where even the smallest degree of inaccuracy is readily apparent to anyone who composes critically, and you just don't hear these complaints about previous or even competing models.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on February 13, 2008, 02:32:04 pm
Quote
"FWIW, I just receveid the latest issue of french mag Chasseur d'Image and on the EOS 1DS Mk3 review, they clearly say that a misalignment is present on the tested copy. They also say that this is quite frequent even on high end models."

While it seems quite obvious that people are having alignment problems with the new camera, it's not so obvious that this is a common occurence on high end cameras in general. This is the third generation of full frame 1 series cameras from Canon and I'm pretty sure the MKIII is the only one generating these types of complaints. It's the type of thing where even the smallest degree of inaccuracy is readily apparent to anyone who composes critically, and you just don't hear these complaints about previous or even competing models.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174609\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes, it's the first time I've come across this problem too, I'm still using my 1DsMkII as a result.

I understand others are suffering from focus issues and one guys 1DsMkIII has suddenly started drawing horizontal lines across his images!  I would of thought that getting a viewfinder to line up with a sensor would of been a well practiced art over in Japan - I can't see any reason except poor design and/or poor quality control.

Following the 1DMkIII focus fiasco and the way Canon treated it's loyal customers then... I would of expected a tighter ship this time around.

For me, for the time being, this is a no-sale. I'm going to wait a few months and continue working with my MkII - old faithful!

With all due respect to the Canon Service staff (bless there now overworked cotton socks) I don't want a new camera that's just been taken to bits - it's a recipe for further disaster (as has been demonstrated earlier in this thread).

I do hope that nothing else untoward comes to light with the 1DsMkIII, I would like to buy one....really! I tried....I tried four!!!
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: pfigen on February 13, 2008, 03:25:37 pm
Carl,

My camera had the horizontal lines. I don't know if there have been any others, but that's from a defective chip, which is something that's going to happen with electronic devices. That's a much different kind of problem than what appears to be a production line precision problem resulting in misaligned viewfinders.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on February 13, 2008, 06:00:47 pm
Quote
Carl,

My camera had the horizontal lines. I don't know if there have been any others, but that's from a defective chip, which is something that's going to happen with electronic devices. That's a much different kind of problem than what appears to be a production line precision problem resulting in misaligned viewfinders.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174639\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I do appreciate that. Due to the fact that I have had four of these bodies with the same fault my view is pretty tarnished I suppose. Reflecting on the 1D3 focus problem it all adds up to something a bit sloppy going on at Canon HQ.

With the huge amount of cash being generated from these cameras I just think a little bit more care should be taken with testing etc.

I do agree though, it's the nature of complex electro-mechanical devices to fail...with time.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dwdallam on February 14, 2008, 02:18:16 am
Quote
The one in the image. Sorry the website is only in german:
http://www.manufactum.de/Produkt/0/761690/...iff=wasserwaage (http://www.manufactum.de/Produkt/0/761690/WasserwaageAcryl.html?suchbegriff=wasserwaage)

[attachment=4601:attachment]

You hold it to the front end of the lens barrel first for vertical alignment. Then you put it on the hot shoe for horizontal alignment, measure this a second time with the level turned 180° to find out whether the hot shoe is not in level.

Best,
Johannes
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=166553\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is about leveling, and not specifically about teh MKIII--so please skip this off topic post if you need MKIII information.

I have one of those hot shoe bubble levels and it's just as accurate as the bubble level on my Bogen Pro pan tilt head. The problem with those little hotshoe levels is that they have small bubbles and a very small tolerance. So if you are on one of the lines, which is suppose to indicate 'level enough" it will be off a few degrees. I have to be very precise when centering the bubble between the level lines. I thought it was off too and crap until I did some experimenting. It's dead.

In any event, what other options are there for leveling a horizon other than on head bubble levels or on hotshot? Nothing in the viewfinder will accomplish leveling a horizon unless you are dead square facing the horizon, since when you move away from the line, you get one point increasingly further away than the other--in other words, the horizon begins to take on perspective--like shooting a curb at an angle.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dwdallam on February 14, 2008, 02:34:05 am
Maybe that's why there is a shortage of MKIIIs right now--they stopped shipping them so they don't ship anymore bad one; are testing the ones they do allow out; etc.

I think I will wait now also. I don't care what people say about nitpicking: An 8, 000US camera should not need tape in the viewfinder or workarounds regarding viewfinder line up. Bullshit. That's something you might expect if you bought a 149US Casio point and shoot.

I know I'd be really pissed having to deal with that--and having to send the damn thing in to be torn apart.

I am so glad I listened to myself in another thread when I explained that " Since there is a shortage, maybe the ones on the shelves right now in smaller shops are an older build, and maybe it's a psychological thing with me, but I think I'll wait for the 'new' models."

I will wait now. Not ony that, but I found out something else today on teh 5D, which will be in a new thread.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 14, 2008, 07:49:49 am
Quote
In any event, what other options are there for leveling a horizon other than on head bubble levels or on hotshot?

[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=174773\")

This one: [a href=\"http://www.zig-align.com/]Zig Align[/url]
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Yakim Peled on February 14, 2008, 10:14:34 am
With the Olympics getting nearer, with the new Nikon offerings and with Sony's announcement about its FF I think this problem comes in a very bad time for Canon.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Josh-H on February 14, 2008, 05:22:16 pm
Well more news to hand..

Apparently its only a small batch that have this issue and its easily rectified.

See
Canon Alignment (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/Canon_1DS_MkIII.html)

14th In a comment on DPR, the supposed cause of the viewfinder alignment is revealed:

"The problem is a mask in the viewfinder. It's fitted with four screws, that should be tightened in a certain order to fix it correctly, just like the bolts on the wheels of a car. Apparently, some guy used the wrong order on a certain batch of cameras, and the result is that the mask shifted a little. It explains why only some cameras have this problem, and why the degree is different in each one."
The BJP article I mentioned yesterday is now online
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dwdallam on February 15, 2008, 01:17:15 am
Quote
This one: Zig Align (http://www.zig-align.com/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174806\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That allows you to align the horizon horizontally in teh view finder?
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 15, 2008, 02:10:52 am
Quote
That allows you to align the horizon horizontally in teh view finder?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=174998\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I suggest you read the material on their website - explains what it does and how it works much better than I could here.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: pfigen on February 15, 2008, 03:02:31 am
As of today, Canon has replaced the sensor on my camera but they say it's still making the lines that it did with the first one. According to Chris in Irvine, they are having problems getting the camera to "talk" to the diagnostic computers they use and have no real means of diagnosing the problem. So, even though there are no lemon laws for camers in the U.S. I'm going to give them two more weeks to get their act together, making it an entire month, and then push them very hard for a new camera, which, according to Chris, they don't have. I'm a very patient person, but it's not looking great.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Josh-H on February 15, 2008, 03:27:25 am
Quote
As of today, Canon has replaced the sensor on my camera but they say it's still making the lines that it did with the first one. According to Chris in Irvine, they are having problems getting the camera to "talk" to the diagnostic computers they use and have no real means of diagnosing the problem. So, even though there are no lemon laws for camers in the U.S. I'm going to give them two more weeks to get their act together, making it an entire month, and then push them very hard for a new camera, which, according to Chris, they don't have. I'm a very patient person, but it's not looking great.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=175007\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ugh... not a pleasant story. Please let us know how it turns out.

I rang Canon Aust. in Victoria today just out of interest to see if they had any reported [or at least were letting on that they had!] alignment issues.

After speaking to a few different people in the tech repair dept. no-one had any clue - so directed them to a few sites - including the British Journal where Canon are quoted.

Suffice to say the comment was 'we will look into it'.

I would exepct from what I have seen posted by people that there will likely be an announcement of some sort by Canon with affected serial numbers relatively soon. Or, at least there should be.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Dinarius on February 15, 2008, 04:06:17 am
Here's a link to the BJP article:

http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=701396 (http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=701396)

I wonder if this repair involves dismantling the camera to any great degree? If it doesn't, that would make me feel a lot more comfortable about a repair rather than a replacement.

D.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Steve Holmes on February 15, 2008, 09:56:14 am
I just tested mine, and it's about 1 degree out of alignment. Serial # 604XXX.

Are there any details about what the process is to get it fixed?
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: pfigen on February 15, 2008, 11:09:06 am
"I just tested mine, and it's about 1 degree out of alignment. Serial # 604XXX.

Are there any details about what the process is to get it fixed?"

Like any other warranty repair, take or send it to an authorized Canon service center with a complete description detailing the problem. Include your proof of purchase, although that's not really necessary as all 1DsMK3's are in warranty now. Hopefully you're a CPS member which should help speed up the process.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dwdallam on February 15, 2008, 11:20:08 pm
Quote
I suggest you read the material on their website - explains what it does and how it works much better than I could here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=175003\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

It talks a lot about prisms and alignment, but I found no simple example of how to use their product to simply line up a horizon horizontally in the view finder.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 16, 2008, 12:11:41 am
Quote
It talks a lot about prisms and alignment, but I found no simple example of how to use their product to simply line up a horizon horizontally in the view finder.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=175184\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I know of this product but have not used it as there hasn't been the neeed. It is rather expensive. If you wish to pursue it I would suggest getting in touch with them and ask them specifically how it would be used for the purpose at hand.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: jjj on February 19, 2008, 10:52:54 am
I noticed last night that in the UK the best price you can buy a 1DsIII is about £200 more than the best price for a 1DsII.
That's not exactly a vote of confidence for the new product.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dwdallam on February 19, 2008, 07:59:50 pm
Quote
I noticed last night that in the UK the best price you can buy a 1DsIII is about £200 more than the best price for a 1DsII.
That's not exactly a vote of confidence for the new product.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=175937\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


That's about 390US. That's a great vote of confidence in marketing. You get all of the newest stuff, and you pay only 5.5% more.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 19, 2008, 11:14:05 pm
This is completely normal and as to be expected. The real price of new technology keeps decreasing over timen in cameras as well as in many other high tech products. In 2002 the original 1Ds was about 8000 dollars, in 2004 the price of the 1Ds2 was about 8000 dollars and in 2007/8 the price of a 1Ds3 is about 8000 dollars. Canon has been keeping the price of the camera the same in nominal dollars, which means in real terms it is declining by the rate of inflation in the US.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Josh-H on February 19, 2008, 11:19:51 pm
Quote
I noticed last night that in the UK the best price you can buy a 1DsIII is about £200 more than the best price for a 1DsII.
That's not exactly a vote of confidence for the new product.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=175937\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In Australia I can buy a brand new 1DS MKII for 8000 Australian dollars.

A brand new 1DS MKIII is currently 12,000 dollars in Australia - IF you can even find one. If you can... good luck trying to get a discount.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dwdallam on February 20, 2008, 02:49:03 am
Quote
In Australia I can buy a brand new 1DS MKII for 8000 Australian dollars.

A brand new 1DS MKIII is currently 12,000 dollars in Australia - IF you can even find one. If you can... good luck trying to get a discount.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176105\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's disgusting.

I wonder how much you could buy one in Japan by walking in off the shelf? I always wanted to go to Japan anyway.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Josh-H on February 20, 2008, 03:15:29 am
Quote
That's disgusting.

I wonder how much you could buy one in Japan by walking in off the shelf? I always wanted to go to Japan anyway.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176135\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well my brother just got back from Japan last week - he saw one  1DS MKIII on the shelf for 98,000 Yen - or about $9,800 Australian.

Not sure what the conversion rate is to the US $.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dwdallam on February 20, 2008, 06:18:45 am
Quote
Well my brother just got back from Japan last week - he saw one  1DS MKIII on the shelf for 98,000 Yen - or about $9,800 Australian.

Not sure what the conversion rate is to the US $.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176139\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I jsut got a reply from Amazon that they finally had ONE MKIII in stock from a third party. The price was around 9700US.  F-that. You can nearly buy a 22MP medium format camera for that price, and no MKIII is going to take better pictures than a medium format with twice the sensor size of the MKIII.

Nearly 10K for the MKIII with focusing and alignment problems? What are they thinking?
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 21, 2008, 12:04:45 am
The official price of a Canon 1DsMK3 is 8000 USD in the USA and 8249 CAD in Canada. There is a backlog of orders at any retailer I'm familiar with. Under these conditions there are unscrupulous dealers taking advantage of the situation. Don't blame Canon for this greed. Apart from this alignment issue that has affected some owners this is an excellent piece of equipment. Apart from the 21.1 MP, it has a myriad of significant practical improvements over the previous models that improve efficiency and make it a pleasure to use.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dwdallam on February 21, 2008, 02:57:57 am
Quote
The official price of a Canon 1DsMK3 is 8000 USD in the USA and 8249 CAD in Canada. There is a backlog of orders at any retailer I'm familiar with. Under these conditions there are unscrupulous dealers taking advantage of the situation. Don't blame Canon for this greed. Apart from this alignment issue that has affected some owners this is an excellent piece of equipment. Apart from the 21.1 MP, it has a myriad of significant practical improvements over the previous models that improve efficiency and make it a pleasure to use.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176340\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


It's good to know the list price is 8K then for sure. Even so, you can get the 22MP medium format for I think under 11K US. I know there are big differences between the cameras, but using the settings available in teh medium format 22MP camera and the same settings on the Canon MKIII, you'll never match the MF back in quality of the recorded image. Portability and speed are another issue.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Josh-H on February 21, 2008, 04:04:27 am
Quote
It's good to know the list price is 8K then for sure. Even so, you can get the 22MP medium format for I think under 11K US. I know there are big differences between the cameras, but using the settings available in teh medium format 22MP camera and the same settings on the Canon MKIII, you'll never match the MF back in quality of the recorded image. Portability and speed are another issue.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176360\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And for the record in Australia the 1DS MKIII is MSRP $11,995.00

a 22 pixel medium format back from say leaf or Phase is SIGNIFICANTLY MORE.

Not to mention thats just the back - you still need a body.

So I dont think its a fair comparison. In Australia anyway...
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Ted Steppan on February 21, 2008, 12:06:38 pm
1Ds Mk3 Can be had for $7400 at newegg.com.  That's where I got mine.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: jeremydillon on February 21, 2008, 10:28:03 pm
Quote
And for the record in Australia the 1DS MKIII is MSRP $11,995.00

a 22 pixel medium format back from say leaf or Phase is SIGNIFICANTLY MORE.

Not to mention thats just the back - you still need a body.

So I dont think its a fair comparison. In Australia anyway...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176368\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hi Josh,

Just to set you straight ... the street price for a 1ds3 in aust seems to be 'round $10,999 (that's about $10,000 before tax), I paid a bit less for mine.  Once you convert to AUD and add GST we are getting much closer parity with US prices than we ever have with a pro DSLR from Canon ever before.

Canon Australia are taking a hard line with guarantee repairs on imported product. Don't expect to drop your bhphoto.com 1ds3 with an allignment problem out to Burwood for a quick fix.

Finally, Canon in Burwood have known about the allignment problem with my 1ds3 since the 15th January.  A technician and the main check in person checked it out when I dropped in there to see what the story with a repair would be. They rekon a 72hour turnaround to get it done when I get a gap in my shooting sched. (I think they do a 48 hour if you're a CPS member)

Anyway, we all have our issues with Canon Australia (their lenses still seem to be 30% above the world going rate) But I think that they've done all they can with local pricing on the 1DSiii, and have been responsive to my v/f allignment issues.

cheers

Jeremy
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Josh-H on February 21, 2008, 10:55:38 pm
Quote
Hi Josh,

Just to set you straight ... the street price for a 1ds3 in aust seems to be 'round $10,999 (that's about $10,000 before tax), I paid a bit less for mine.  Once you convert to AUD and add GST we are getting much closer parity with US prices than we ever have with a pro DSLR from Canon ever before.

Canon Australia are taking a hard line with guarantee repairs on imported product. Don't expect to drop your bhphoto.com 1ds3 with an allignment problem out to Burwood for a quick fix.

Finally, Canon in Burwood have known about the allignment problem with my 1ds3 since the 15th January.  A technician and the main check in person checked it out when I dropped in there to see what the story with a repair would be. They rekon a 72hour turnaround to get it done when I get a gap in my shooting sched. (I think they do a 48 hour if you're a CPS member)

Anyway, we all have our issues with Canon Australia (their lenses still seem to be 30% above the world going rate) But I think that they've done all they can with local pricing on the 1DSiii, and have been responsive to my v/f allignment issues.

cheers

Jeremy
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=176547\")

Yeah I know the current st. price is around 11k. I was refering to the RRP on Canons website - here: [a href=\"http://www.canon.com.au/products/cameras/digital_slr.html]1DS MKIII[/url]

I ordered my 1DS MKIII locally back in November 07 - received it about 3 weeks ago now and paid a shade over 11k inc. tax. But that did include an 8 gig sandisk extreme IV ducati edition card - not sure the price of the card.

When I spoke to Canon burwood earlier this week they told me that any repairs to 1 series cameras have to be done in Sydney - but that the viewfinder repair was a quick fix and as a CPS member they could turn it around in approx. 3 days. They mentioned several people reporting the issue - guess you must have been one of them :-)

Your spot on the money with lens prices in Australia from Canon - their website prices are way out of whack with St. prices.

Let us know how you get on when you send yours in for the alignment fix.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: phila on February 21, 2008, 11:17:23 pm
Quote
Yeah I know the current st. price is around 11k. I was refering to the RRP on Canons website - here: 1DS MKIII (http://www.canon.com.au/products/cameras/digital_slr.html)

I ordered my 1DS MKIII locally back in November 07 - received it about 3 weeks ago now and paid a shade over 11k inc. tax. But that did include an 8 gig sandisk extreme IV ducati edition card - not sure the price of the card.

When I spoke to Canon burwood earlier this week they told me that any repairs to 1 series cameras have to be done in Sydney - but that the viewfinder repair was a quick fix and as a CPS member they could turn it around in approx. 3 days. They mentioned several people reporting the issue - guess you must have been one of them :-)

Your spot on the money with lens prices in Australia from Canon - their website prices are way out of whack with St. prices.

Let us know how you get on when you send yours in for the alignment fix.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176554\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As I reported here earlier I had mine adjusted in 24 hours at Canon Sydney. I only live 15 minutes away so was able to drop it in directly one afternoon and collect it the next (although I am a CPS member).
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dwdallam on February 22, 2008, 06:57:25 am
Quote
And for the record in Australia the 1DS MKIII is MSRP $11,995.00

a 22 pixel medium format back from say leaf or Phase is SIGNIFICANTLY MORE.

Not to mention thats just the back - you still need a body.

So I dont think its a fair comparison. In Australia anyway...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176368\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

OK I'm ignorant on this then. can you explain this to me? I just watched a quick video at the Phase1 website, and teh "back" snaps into the "body" the photographer was using.  This is interesting to me. And are you saying that teh little piece that snaps into the body is 10+K?
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Josh-H on February 22, 2008, 07:09:29 am
Quote
OK I'm ignorant on this then. can you explain this to me? I just watched a quick video at the Phase1 website, and teh "back" snaps into the "body" the photographer was using.  This is interesting to me. And are you saying that teh little piece that snaps into the body is 10+K?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176624\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yup.

The back alone is the big ticket item.

You still need the camera body and the lens - and that can run some serious coin as well depending on your choices.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dwdallam on February 22, 2008, 05:54:46 pm
Quote
Yup.

The back alone is the big ticket item.

You still need the camera body and the lens - and that can run some serious coin as well depending on your choices.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176625\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Can someone give an outline how this works and the cost involved for each item, including lens choice? This is interesting to me and perhaps worth saving a year or two to invest in it. Also, some pros and cons of using medium format compared to the MKIII, such as weather sealing, portability, and weight.

Thanks.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: djgarcia on February 22, 2008, 06:06:49 pm
I'd say it merits its very own thread .
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dwdallam on February 22, 2008, 09:35:56 pm
Quote
I'd say it merits its very own thread .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176771\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Indeed.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: pfigen on February 22, 2008, 11:04:07 pm
I got my MKIII back from Canon today. Three weeks and two days later. The "D" board, or digital board was defective, and had to be ordered from Japan. It seems to be working fine now but I haven't had a chance to put it through it's paces. They said that that same board was probably the source of the focusing problems I was having as well. They weren't sure if they were going get it in Fedex yesterday or today and offered Saturday delivery, which, in the end, wasn't needed.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 23, 2008, 12:36:25 am
Quote
It's good to know the list price is 8K then for sure. Even so, you can get the 22MP medium format for I think under 11K US. I know there are big differences between the cameras, but using the settings available in teh medium format 22MP camera and the same settings on the Canon MKIII, you'll never match the MF back in quality of the recorded image. Portability and speed are another issue.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176360\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Have you done a rigorous comparison of the same image shot with a range of different settings using both cameras and examined the results, or is this a theoretical proposition?
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dwdallam on February 23, 2008, 02:51:51 am
Quote
Have you done a rigorous comparison of the same image shot with a range of different settings using both cameras and examined the results, or is this a theoretical proposition?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176824\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Nope, I haven't. But I will theorize that if the MKIII was comparable in quality to a MF, then MF would not sell. Not only that, but the size of a MF sensor is twice the size of of the MKIII's. Last, I've read in many different places, including this site in one of MR's essays, that MF kicks APS sensor quality's ass given equal pixel density. I could be mistaken, but if I remember or read correctly, then that is the fact.

But by all means, if you have evidence that the MKIII can stand toe to toe with a MF camera, or even come close to it's performance, please share this information.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Dinarius on February 23, 2008, 04:26:00 am
Quote
Nope, I haven't. But I will theorize that if the MKIII was comparable in quality to a MF, then MF would not sell. Not only that, but the size of a MF sensor is twice the size of of the MKIII's. Last, I've read in many different places, including this site in one of MR's essays, that MF kicks APS sensor quality's ass given equal pixel density. I could be mistaken, but if I remember or read correctly, then that is the fact.

But by all means, if you have evidence that the MKIII can stand toe to toe with a MF camera, or even come close to it's performance, please share this information.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176834\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Any chance we could keep this thread on topic?  

MFDB vs. DSLR has been discussed a million times on this site. It doesn't need to be discussed here.

This thread is for people experiencing problems with what must surely be the most cocked up camera launch in history. (The B&H page for this camera now read: "Important Notice!
This item is temporarily not available. We have no estimated arrival date at this time." Ouch!   )

Thanks.

For the record, my camera is still with Canon UK. My agent is trying to negotiate a replacement (which is what happened with the troubled Mkll models) not a repair. Ironically, the demo camera they gave me as cover is also faulty.

In the UK, the British Journal of Photography's (think the NYT of UK photography in terms of influence) review has really made Canon wake up apparently. For those who don't know, they were given a faulty camera to review which was immediately replaced. The resulting review was good, but not brilliant. And, not unexpectedly, wide-angle lens performance came in for criticism. e.g. The TSE 24mm was slammed.

One thing coming out of all this is that photographs are made from pixels AND glass, not just pixels. Nikon must be chuckling quietly to themselves. If they launch a 20Mp+ camera in the next year, one thing we can all be sure of is that the glass will be better. It always is. However, I'm too committed to Canon now.

D.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dwdallam on February 23, 2008, 06:27:31 am
Quote
Any chance we could keep this thread on topic?   
Nikon must be chuckling quietly to themselves. If they launch a 20Mp+ camera in the next year, one thing we can all be sure of is that the glass will be better. It always is. However, I'm too committed to Canon now.

D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176846\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I thinks Canon screwed up with the MKIII. In any event, what glass does Nikon have that matches the Canon 70-200L IS?
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Paul2660 on February 23, 2008, 10:37:42 am
To give an idea of  MF Digital back.

US $29,990.00  
This is a deal being run right now by Phase One in the U.S.

For this you get the Phase One P45+  (39 MP no microlenses)
                             The Mamiya P645 body ready to take the back
                             The Mamiya 80mm Lens (50mm is 35mm Equivalent)
                             The Mamiya 28mm Lens (Not sure that the 35mm equivalent is)

That is good deal if you can afford it, as the 28mm lens from Mamiya is around 5.5K U.S.

They are also running similar deals on the P25+ and P30+, however in the U.S. I found the deal on the P25+ was very close to the same price as the P45+, around 4K diff, which surprised me.  You still get the P645 Mamiya body and the 80mm lens, no 28mm.

Paul Caldwell
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: djgarcia on February 23, 2008, 10:54:57 am
Quote
I thinks Canon screwed up with the MKIII. In any event, what glass does Nikon have that matches the Canon 70-200L IS?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176852\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't think Canon screwed up with the 1DsIII as such - apparently their arrogance is just making them sloppy. The 1DsIII is really a fine camera, once it's up to specs. I had to send mine in twice, first to get the viewfinder parallax alignment fixed, then right back to fix the autofocus which they wacked when they fixed the parallax. The second repair took 4 days including shipping, so they thankfully did do the very best they could.

The camera is now working beautifully, and it would be painful to go back to my trusty 1DsII, now relegated to back-up bench warmer. I tend to do a lot of backlit shots and I have to say the fringing response of this camera in those high-contrast edges through my Zeiss lenses is very pleasant.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dwdallam on February 23, 2008, 10:41:59 pm
Quote
To give an idea of  MF Digital back.

US $29,990.00 
This is a deal being run right now by Phase One in the U.S.

For this you get the Phase One P45+  (39 MP no microlenses)
                             The Mamiya P645 body ready to take the back
                             The Mamiya 80mm Lens (50mm is 35mm Equivalent)
                             The Mamiya 28mm Lens (Not sure that the 35mm equivalent is)

That is good deal if you can afford it, as the 28mm lens from Mamiya is around 5.5K U.S.

They are also running similar deals on the P25+ and P30+, however in the U.S. I found the deal on the P25+ was very close to the same price as the P45+, around 4K diff, which surprised me.  You still get the P645 Mamiya body and the 80mm lens, no 28mm.

Paul Caldwell
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176873\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I started a thread in the MF forums for this. but thanks for your reply.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 24, 2008, 10:40:48 am
Quote
Nope, I haven't. But I will theorize that if the MKIII was comparable in quality to a MF, then MF would not sell. Not only that, but the size of a MF sensor is twice the size of of the MKIII's. Last, I've read in many different places, including this site in one of MR's essays, that MF kicks APS sensor quality's ass given equal pixel density. I could be mistaken, but if I remember or read correctly, then that is the fact.

But by all means, if you have evidence that the MKIII can stand toe to toe with a MF camera, or even come close to it's performance, please share this information.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176834\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

OK, thanks for confirming that you are talking from snippets of theory and not from anything you've tested. I've not participated in any discussion about the comparative image quality of a 1DsMk3 versus a medium format camera because I haven't either done the testing or seen any rigorous comparisons. Let me simply conclude here, because all this is off topic, that other factors in addition to those you mention contribute to image quality positively or negatively in a comparative sense, therefore it is important to talk specific models and configurations in making such comparisons. Just to give you a quick flavour of the difficulties - a Mamiya representative at a trade show told me that their 22 MP back would produce noticeably more noise than a Canon 1DsMk3 upwards of 200 ISO. So if I shoot at say 400 or 800 ISO to get a combnation of high enough shutter speed and low aperture for a landscape shot where I am hand-holding the camera and need good depth of field, which camera is likely to deliver a more acceptable result: the Canon or the Mamiya? I'm not answering that question because I haven't field-tested the Mamiya, but I'm just pointing out the dangers of generalizations based on incomplete theoretical information.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 24, 2008, 10:52:31 am
Quote
I don't think Canon screwed up with the 1DsIII as such - apparently their arrogance is just making them sloppy. The 1DsIII is really a fine camera, once it's up to specs. I had to send mine in twice, first to get the viewfinder parallax alignment fixed, then right back to fix the autofocus which they wacked when they fixed the parallax. The second repair took 4 days including shipping, so they thankfully did do the very best they could.

The camera is now working beautifully, and it would be painful to go back to my trusty 1DsII, now relegated to back-up bench warmer. I tend to do a lot of backlit shots and I have to say the fringing response of this camera in those high-contrast edges through my Zeiss lenses is very pleasant.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=176878\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

DJ - yes I agree - the 1Ds3 really is a fine camera. I'm enoying using mine alot. With its many new features and technical advances it is much more use-friendly than the two previous models and produces great image quality. While Canon has difficult issues of corporate culture and quality consistency to deal with, they do know how to make very good cameras.

As for the near-by post from Dinarius generalizing about the superiority of Nikon lenses - I'll ask the same question I keep asking when I see these off-the-cuff generalizations - what is the body of evidence to confirm this contention? Both companies make lense that range in quality from excellent to so-so. Until I see convincing evidence one way or another I would refrain from generalizations about which company makes better lenses.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dwdallam on February 24, 2008, 10:48:37 pm
Quote
DJ - yes I agree - the 1Ds3 really is a fine camera. I'm enoying using mine alot. With its many new features and technical advances it is much more use-friendly than the two previous models and produces great image quality. While Canon has difficult issues of corporate culture and quality consistency to deal with, they do know how to make very good cameras.

As for the near-by post from Dinarius generalizing about the superiority of Nikon lenses - I'll ask the same question I keep asking when I see these off-the-cuff generalizations - what is the body of evidence to confirm this contention? Both companies make lense that range in quality from excellent to so-so. Until I see convincing evidence one way or another I would refrain from generalizations about which company makes better lenses.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177072\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I've asked this question too, asked for links to the studies or specific lenses that beat Canon's, and I have yet to find any evidence. I asked specifically what Nikon lens is superior to the Canon 70-200IS L in that focal range?
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on February 25, 2008, 08:24:54 am
Quote
I've asked this question too, asked for links to the studies or specific lenses that beat Canon's, and I have yet to find any evidence. I asked specifically what Nikon lens is superior to the Canon 70-200IS L in that focal range?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177159\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


What is the relevance of this discussion in a thread headed "Canon 1ds3 alignment problems, Viewfinder vs image alignment"?

I'm sure another thread, maybe called "Lens masturbation for the uninitiated" could be started with just a few keystrokes... and we can get back on topic here. I notice others have tried to suggest this with such subtlety it has obviously been overlooked - please forgive my own lack of...!

Has anyone else had a MkIII back from Canon Service yet? - Any comments/thoughts good or bad?

Following my earlier disappointment I'm still on the fence about buying this camera.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 25, 2008, 09:56:30 am
Quote
What is the relevance of this discussion in a thread headed "Canon 1ds3 alignment problems, Viewfinder vs image alignment"?

I'm sure another thread, maybe called "Lens masturbation for the uninitiated" could be started with just a few keystrokes... and we can get back on topic here. I notice others have tried to suggest this with such subtlety it has obviously been overlooked - please forgive my own lack of...!

Has anyone else had a MkIII back from Canon Service yet? - Any comments/thoughts good or bad?

Following my earlier disappointment I'm still on the fence about buying this camera.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=177200\")

Carl,

When people have teething problems with an 8000 dollar camera they naturally ask questions about whether they should look elsewhere and it becomes a slippery slope once the discussion meanders into related issues such as the qualities of the options. But you are correct, this thread has slid down the slope a bit more than it should have. But if only all of life's problems were so.

Now as for the camera, let me put it this way: I have now made about 2000 captures with this camera. I just returned from a wonderful 9 day field shoot in Yellowstone National Park and the Tetons (with "Travel Images" led by John Baker). It was really cold outside and the camera performed flawlessly. Focusing is fine and mine does not appear to have an alignment problem. The battery performance was astounding. A colleague with a 1Ds2 (Ni-cad battery) was having frozen battery problems while mine (L-I battery) just kept performing with tons of capacity to spare - which I can read to the accuracy of 1 percentage point on this camera - a new feature. My fingers froze (even wearing gloves) long before this battery ever will. The camera's useability is simply tremendously improved over the previous models. Everything is so much more accessible and easy to adjust. I am persuaded that the image quality is superb. For example, I've used it outdoors at night during a snowstorm at high ISO here in Toronto with low shutter speed and IS lenses and I think the results are fine [a href=\"http://www.markdsegal.com/toronto-winter/]Toronto Winter With My !ds3[/url] . I haven't had a chance to seriously review the Yellowstone shoot yet, but based on testing I've done with a range of other more usual subject matter here in Toronto, I think the image quality is fine.

Now whether you should buy this camera or not, at this point in time I would say is hard to advise about. There are a number of questions which only you can answer to your own satisfaction, so the only help I can legitimately offer is to suggest what those questions are about: (1) How many MP of resolution do you need for the output you will be producing, remembering that you can get commercially acceptable inkjet print quality for large prints at output PPI in the minimum range of 180-240 PPI. For many people 12 MP is more than enough, and there is a growing number of good choices in this size range. I like the 21 MP idea because it gives me much leeway to crop and still print big, but not everyone would find that important. (2) What are you using now and how urgent is it to up-grade? (3) What's your investment in Canon lenses and how much budget space do you have to contemplate a system change, considering that if you were to sell Canon and move to Nikon you will get about 50 cents on the dollar for the lenses. (4) If you want full-frame at the "bleeding edge", you have a choice between the 1Ds3, the Nikon D3 (still in even shorter supply than the Canon), and perhaps later in the year, a speculative Sony 24 MP camera, and a Nikon D3 successor speculated at 24 MP. Who knows when these last 2 cameras will appear, what they will cost and how they will perform compared with the Canon, but if you have time to wait and are prepared to switch systems,  why not wait and have an expanded range from which to select once enough comparative performance data emerges. The Nikon D3, from what I've seen, seems to be a fabulous product, but 12MP.

As for Canon's quality control issues, this alignment problem seems to be on the course of resolution. The evidence suggests that they are repairing them and returning them to their owners in fine condition. Perhaps they will have now tackled the problem at source, so for future purchasers this will be an irrelevant "early adaptor" issue with no longe-term consequences. It would be good if Canon came out of its shell and told people the status of the problem, but others have given-up trying to tell Canon things that are in their own interest, so I have no illusions about any announcements. Nonetheless, they aren't dummies and if they've solved the problem silently under the hood, in the final analysis that is what matters.

Hope this helps.

Mark
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on February 25, 2008, 12:13:06 pm
Quote
Carl,

When people have teething problems with an 8000 dollar camera they naturally ask questions about whether they should look elsewhere and it becomes a slippery slope once the discussion meanders into related issues such as the qualities of the options. But you are correct, this thread has slid down the slope a bit more than it should have. But if only all of life's problems were so.

Now as for the camera, let me put it this way: I have now made about 2000 captures with this camera. I just returned from a wonderful 9 day field shoot in Yellowstone National Park and the Tetons (with "Travel Images" led by John Baker). It was really cold outside and the camera performed flawlessly. Focusing is fine and mine does not appear to have an alignment problem. The battery performance was astounding. A colleague with a 1Ds2 (Ni-cad battery) was having frozen battery problems while mine (L-I battery) just kept performing with tons of capacity to spare - which I can read to the accuracy of 1 percentage point on this camera - a new feature. My fingers froze (even wearing gloves) long before this battery ever will. The camera's useability is simply tremendously improved over the previous models. Everything is so much more accessible and easy to adjust. I am persuaded that the image quality is superb. For example, I've used it outdoors at night during a snowstorm at high ISO here in Toronto with low shutter speed and IS lenses and I think the results are fine Toronto Winter With My !ds3 (http://www.markdsegal.com/toronto-winter/) . I haven't had a chance to seriously review the Yellowstone shoot yet, but based on testing I've done with a range of other more usual subject matter here in Toronto, I think the image quality is fine.

Now whether you should buy this camera or not, at this point in time I would say is hard to advise about. There are a number of questions which only you can answer to your own satisfaction, so the only help I can legitimately offer is to suggest what those questions are about: (1) How many MP of resolution do you need for the output you will be producing, remembering that you can get commercially acceptable inkjet print quality for large prints at output PPI in the minimum range of 180-240 PPI. For many people 12 MP is more than enough, and there is a growing number of good choices in this size range. I like the 21 MP idea because it gives me much leeway to crop and still print big, but not everyone would find that important. (2) What are you using now and how urgent is it to up-grade? (3) What's your investment in Canon lenses and how much budget space do you have to contemplate a system change, considering that if you were to sell Canon and move to Nikon you will get about 50 cents on the dollar for the lenses. (4) If you want full-frame at the "bleeding edge", you have a choice between the 1Ds3, the Nikon D3 (still in even shorter supply than the Canon), and perhaps later in the year, a speculative Sony 24 MP camera, and a Nikon D3 successor speculated at 24 MP. Who knows when these last 2 cameras will appear, what they will cost and how they will perform compared with the Canon, but if you have time to wait and are prepared to switch systems,  why not wait and have an expanded range from which to select once enough comparative performance data emerges. The Nikon D3, from what I've seen, seems to be a fabulous product, but 12MP.

As for Canon's quality control issues, this alignment problem seems to be on the course of resolution. The evidence suggests that they are repairing them and returning them to their owners in fine condition. Perhaps they will have now tackled the problem at source, so for future purchasers this will be an irrelevant "early adaptor" issue with no longe-term consequences. It would be good if Canon came out of its shell and told people the status of the problem, but others have given-up trying to tell Canon things that are in their own interest, so I have no illusions about any announcements. Nonetheless, they aren't dummies and if they've solved the problem silently under the hood, in the final analysis that is what matters.

Hope this helps.

Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177220\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mark,

Thanks for taking the trouble to respond in such depth.

My only issue with the camera was the alignment problem and then subsequently the slow trickle of focus problems and dodgy sensors... but I am realistic about the value of on-line forums and I do appreciate that people tend to sway to them when they themselves have or foresee an issue. For me, the problem seems very widespread and that makes me question the whole assembly/quality-control process Canon have chosen to adopt for this particular model.

I spent a few days with a 1DsIII in my studio before returning it with the alignment issue - I agree, the usability is a major step forward from the MkII I'm working with at the moment.

With regard to image quality, i did a few tests which I repeated on both bodies as a comparison with controlled lighting in my studio. (Here's when I reach for my flack jacket!) I interpolated the MkII images up to the same size as the MkIII (just with Photoshop) did a little subtle sharpening on both...... and could see only the slightest perceptible visual difference at pixel resolution on a nice Lacie CRT. I think we are both experienced enough to realise this would make sweet-fanny-adams difference on a double page spread spewed out of a four+ colour press. I have to stress this was in a studio with over 15KJ of flash on tap, so maximum usable ISO or Nikons 25,000 ASA D3 don't keep me awake at night!

I could see no difference in the colour with regard to the increased bit depth (I used the same RAW calibration settings I produced for the MkII using a hybrid of the Thomas Fors script) I think the advantage would only be evident if you're the type to get the exposure badly wrong or simply like crunching the colour around in Photoshop.

When the water settles I will upgrade to a MkIII later this year for two reasons.

1. My MkII is 3 years old and at that age needs to be relegated to a back-up
2. I don't want to give all my profits to the tax man!

For the time being I've started to experiment with more exotic lenses and adapters to see the effect on both image quality and feel....


Cheers,

Carl
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on February 25, 2008, 12:32:02 pm
Carl,

Yes, a four-colour printing press would  be the clinch-leveler of quality differences between sensors. There is only a 14 percent difference in resolution between a Mk2 and a Mk3, so I can readily see why it would be hard to detect for many kinds of images where liberal cropping is not being undertaken. My output world is inkjet prints, where quality differences in terms of tonal gradations and detail would be more visible. I think this is one of those areas where one really needs to print the comparisons and look at them closely to see the differences - using imaging situations which create stress between the previous technology and the current one, to see just how much that extra resolution and bit depth would make a tangible difference under a variety of capture conditions. I up-graded from an 11MP Canon 1Ds, giving me a 38% increase of resolution and the jump from a DIGIC 1 to a DIGIC III processor, so in my case the I.Q. gap may be more noticeable - I have yet to test this, because the weather here has been inimical to working with my favorite test site for so long a time now. I fully intend to do this, however, as it may be interesting to more than me.

Reading the forums, it seems to me that sensor and focus problems have been very few with this model, the alignment issue being the majority concern - and even then we don't know how many of their total production so far have experienced this flaw. It is inevitable save for the most rigorous testing - and even then - that several cameras out of thousands in a production line will turn-up defects that escape the factory processes. I don't think that represents a major risk factor as the camera is under warrenty - it is at most an annoying nuissance which Canon should do their utmost to prevent or repair quickly in the interest of themselves and their clients.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: narikin on February 27, 2008, 04:22:05 pm
Quote
could see only the slightest perceptible visual difference at pixel resolution on a nice Lacie CRT. I think we are both experienced enough to realise this would make sweet-fanny-adams difference on a double page spread spewed out of a four+ colour press.

err, dont wish to be rude, but this is not remotely the right way to compare high end digital cameras files

1: a CRT is not at all sharp compared to a digital flat panel
2: the idea that the arbiter of it all is a 4 color litho dps is plainly not a runner.

litho presses run on incredibly small gamut CMYK inks, through a very rough 'screen'. photographic prints from e.g. an Epson are far finer and have a dramatically bigger gamut.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on February 28, 2008, 09:56:31 am
Quote
err, dont wish to be rude, but this is not remotely the right way to compare high end digital cameras files

1: a CRT is not at all sharp compared to a digital flat panel
2: the idea that the arbiter of it all is a 4 color litho dps is plainly not a runner.

litho presses run on incredibly small gamut CMYK inks, through a very rough 'screen'. photographic prints from e.g. an Epson are far finer and have a dramatically bigger gamut.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=177796\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



In my workflow where I use a CRT and have used a number of CRT's from Lacie consecutively over the last nine years, it is relevant. The only flat panel screen I've used and has compared favorably to my Lacie CRT is an Eizo CG221 22".... Yes, an AdobeRGB(1998)  gamut and very sharp - but until my Lacie gives up the ghost I'm not inclined to throw almost £3000 at a monitor for no reason. With the exception of the Eizo, I think alot of people have been seduced by the idea of flat screens and then convinced themselves they are better than high-end CRT's... bit of emperors new clothes!!

My camera comparison is based on real-world output in my real-world workflow - as opposed to pixel peaking and comparing irrelevant graphs and specifications.

My work is printed predominantly on a litho press, so isn't that where my comparison should be?

I don't think you are being rude, you simply didn't understand my point.

On the point of mis-alignment (where we should really be) I spoke to a Canon 'Tech' at the UK Focus exhibition on Tuesday. Apparently Canon were aware of the issue back in December...
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mike Chini on February 28, 2008, 11:39:17 am
Just remember that color gamuts are improving across all devices (new LED backlit displays, 16-bit printer drivers etc) so what may not be apparent today, may be in a year or two.  I noticed lots of differences in my images when I switched to an LCD (from a LaCie CRT - loved that monitor) and again when I plugged my computer into my hdtv (plasma) which has a much wider gamut (it would seem).
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dabreeze on March 11, 2008, 11:24:39 am
Well, today my 1Ds3 is expected via overnight FedEx from Canon Irvine. Yesterday I spoke directly with Chris Canada of Canon Professional Services and he assured me that while the problem is not 'widespread,' they are aware of it and that the camera had been repaired correctly. I'll report back on that when it arrives. I'm crossing my fingers as repair reports of this defect at Irvine haven't been particularly good. BTW: mine had a .8% tilt, serial #614---.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Steve Holmes on March 11, 2008, 01:11:18 pm
I just received mine back from Canon yesterday, and I'm impressed with the service. They sent me a shipping label and expedited the return shipping. I sent it on Wednesday and received it Monday, which is faster than I expected. It seems to be in perfect alignment now. While it was annoying to have to send it in, it was resolved fairly quickly.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: CatOne on March 11, 2008, 01:41:46 pm
Quote
There is only a 14 percent difference in resolution between a Mk2 and a Mk3, so I can readily see why it would be hard to detect for many kinds of images where liberal cropping is not being undertaken.
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Not to nitpick, but...

1Ds Mark II = 16.7 megapixels
1Ds Mark III = 21.1 megapixels

A little math seems to indicate that's a 26.3% increase in pixels... what am I missing here?  
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on March 11, 2008, 02:28:16 pm
Quote
Not to nitpick, but...

1Ds Mark II = 16.7 megapixels
1Ds Mark III = 21.1 megapixels

A little math seems to indicate that's a 26.3% increase in pixels... what am I missing here?   
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180636\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What you are missing is a bit of geometry. There may be approximately a 26.3% increase of total pixels, but not of resolution, when resolution is measured as pixels per inch or more conveniently total pixels on one linear dimension (be it the long one or the short one, if we are comparing two sensors of the same linear dimensions). Remember the total pixel count is contained in an area (A) of rows and columns which has a height (h) and width (w), so A = h*w in square inches, let us say. Therefore, the formula for calculating the linear resolution in total pixels let us say on the long dimension is "(the square root of the number of megapixels multipled by the square root of the aspect ratio)*1000". Do this calculation twice - one for the 16.6 MP sensor (not 16.7) and the other for the 21.1 MP sensor, subtract the smaller result from the larger result, take this difference as a percentage of the smaller one and you will get the increase of resolution.

So here we go: the aspect ratio is 1.5 for both of these cameras, the square root of which is 1.225 (confining to 3 decimal places). The square rooots of 16.6 and 21.1 are  4.074 and 4.593 respectively. 1.225*4.593*1000=5625. 1.225*4.074*1000=4971, 5625-4971=654. 654/4971=13.2% increase of resolution between a 1Ds Mk2 and a 1Ds Mk3. I hope that clarifies the matter for you.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dabreeze on March 11, 2008, 05:24:42 pm
i guess we can all use a little geometry now and then!!  

as for canon irvine's repair, it did arrive today and appears to be pretty close to horizontal. without putting up a sheet of grid paper, my informal testing puts it at either completely level or at most about .1% tilted. my gut is that it's off that small amount and i'll continue to try and confirm this, but for now, it's probably good enough.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Peter McLennan on March 11, 2008, 09:03:33 pm
You Canon boys are not alone with viewfinder/sensor alignment issues.  Although it's not in the same league as your cameras, my (RIP) D70 had a three degree misalignment.  Nikon service claimed that they fixed it, but no.  They did reduce it from 3 to 2 degrees.  My D200 is perfect.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dottore on March 13, 2008, 03:34:52 am
Quote
What you are missing is a bit of geometry. There may be approximately a 26.3% increase of total pixels, but not of resolution, when resolution is measured as pixels per inch or more conveniently total pixels on one linear dimension (be it the long one or the short one, if we are comparing two sensors of the same linear dimensions). Remember the total pixel count is contained in an area (A) of rows and columns which has a height (h) and width (w), so A = h*w in square inches, let us say. Therefore, the formula for calculating the linear resolution in total pixels let us say on the long dimension is "(the square root of the number of megapixels multipled by the square root of the aspect ratio)*1000". Do this calculation twice - one for the 16.6 MP sensor (not 16.7) and the other for the 21.1 MP sensor, subtract the smaller result from the larger result, take this difference as a percentage of the smaller one and you will get the increase of resolution.

So here we go: the aspect ratio is 1.5 for both of these cameras, the square root of which is 1.225 (confining to 3 decimal places). The square rooots of 16.6 and 21.1 are  4.074 and 4.593 respectively. 1.225*4.593*1000=5625. 1.225*4.074*1000=4971, 5625-4971=654. 654/4971=13.2% increase of resolution between a 1Ds Mk2 and a 1Ds Mk3. I hope that clarifies the matter for you.
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Much too long winded.  Aspect ratio has nothing to do with it, you muliplied and then divided by it.

sqr(21.1/16.6) - 1 = 0.127 = 12.7%

The diff is your rounding error.  I hope that clarifies the matter for you.


Your
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dottore on March 13, 2008, 03:49:00 am
Quote
You Canon boys are not alone with viewfinder/sensor alignment issues.  Although it's not in the same league as your cameras, my (RIP) D70 had a three degree misalignment.  Nikon service claimed that they fixed it, but no.  They did reduce it from 3 to 2 degrees.  My D200 is perfect.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=180714\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's what I said before.  It would be tempting to just clobber Canon, alas they all make (some) cameras in exactly the same manner.  

Indeed, you don't need to spend 8 kilobucks to have beautifully sloping horizons.  The same thing occurs commonly in Rebels XTi, which I checked on my sample (former, since I got rid of it) showing about 0.75 degree slant (quite annoying) and several store cameras. My 20D has only a very very small tilt which I didn't notice before.  These Rebels and the Mark 3s are assembled using the same technology, so to fix it they probably need to use shims and a trial and error procedure which requires some skill.  

I also said before, the fact they can not reliably fix it proves my earlier assumptions that this is not truly adjustable.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on March 13, 2008, 08:20:15 am
Quote
Much too long winded.  Aspect ratio has nothing to do with it, you muliplied and then divided by it.

sqr(21.1/16.6) - 1 = 0.127 = 12.7%

The diff is your rounding error.  I hope that clarifies the matter for you.
Your
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181027\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I know there is a small rounding error on the aspect ratio - no big deal - the principle of measuring the resolution using square roots is the basic point I was making. What you show is correct; however, the value-added of considering the aspect ratio in the calculation is that it translates the total MP data into a linear metric which then lends itself to more easily seeing PPI, which is the usual way of defining resolution, hence easier for people to relate to. How's that for a long-winded response  
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on March 13, 2008, 08:32:43 am
Quote
That's what I said before.  It would be tempting to just clobber Canon, alas they all make (some) cameras in exactly the same manner. 

Indeed, you don't need to spend 8 kilobucks to have beautifully sloping horizons.  The same thing occurs commonly in Rebels XTi, which I checked on my sample (former, since I got rid of it) showing about 0.75 degree slant (quite annoying) and several store cameras. My 20D has only a very very small tilt which I didn't notice before.  These Rebels and the Mark 3s are assembled using the same technology, so to fix it they probably need to use shims and a trial and error procedure which requires some skill. 

I also said before, the fact they can not reliably fix it proves my earlier assumptions that this is not truly adjustable.
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Are you a technical expert on Canon assembly processes, or is this an inference based on some random experience? And what makes you think they can't reliably fix this problem? There is already a track record of successful re-alignments.

I am no expert on how to manufacture cameras either, but I think it more sensible to believe that a company like Canon is fully capable of manufacturing cameras in a manner to avoid this problem reliably, and whatever errors, oversights or shortcuts are now causing this problem are fixable - if not already done. I suspect the real problems are rooted in corporate culture and commercial considerations - not technical ability per se; but in this day and age of the internet, with forums such as this one, bad news circulates real fast and the reputational risk and possible consequences of doing nothing are high. So sooner or later these issues get addressed, at some inconvenience to the early adopters.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: David Anderson on March 13, 2008, 06:44:50 pm
Quote
Are you a technical expert on Canon assembly processes, or is this an inference based on some random experience? And what makes you think they can't reliably fix this problem? There is already a track record of successful re-alignments.

I am no expert on how to manufacture cameras either, but I think it more sensible to believe that a company like Canon is fully capable of manufacturing cameras in a manner to avoid this problem reliably, and whatever errors, oversights or shortcuts are now causing this problem are fixable - if not already done. I suspect the real problems are rooted in corporate culture and commercial considerations - not technical ability per se; but in this day and age of the internet, with forums such as this one, bad news circulates real fast and the reputational risk and possible consequences of doing nothing are high. So sooner or later these issues get addressed, at some inconvenience to the early adopters.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181062\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I have to agree with Mark here, I've gone to Canon with my fair share of problems, both their fault and (more often) mine, and they have been 100% in fixing them.

They also DON'T have the annoying habit of pretending there's no problem or that the problem is entirely with the photographer unlike some companies I've done business with.
(Profoto, Hasselblad and Bowens are masters of this in Australia)

In fact, service from these guys is so good it makes a joke iMHO out of everyones else in the industry here.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Dansk on March 13, 2008, 11:09:02 pm
Quote
In fact, service from these guys is so good it makes a joke iMHO out of everyones else in the industry here.

I'd agree with that. I'm also looking forward to the side by side testing of the 3 vs the 1 and 2 not to hijack further
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Dinarius on March 14, 2008, 07:59:23 am
My replacement 1DsMk3 arrived this morning. Note "replacement" not repair.

Haven't had a chance to try it yet. Here's hoping.

D.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: dottore on March 17, 2008, 04:07:26 am
Quote
Are you a technical expert on Canon assembly processes, or is this an inference based on some random experience? And what makes you think they can't reliably fix this problem? There is already a track record of successful re-alignments.

I am no expert on how to manufacture cameras either, but I think it more sensible to believe that a company like Canon is fully capable of manufacturing cameras in a manner to avoid this problem reliably, and whatever errors, oversights or shortcuts are now causing this problem are fixable - if not already done. I suspect the real problems are rooted in corporate culture and commercial considerations - not technical ability per se; but in this day and age of the internet, with forums such as this one, bad news circulates real fast and the reputational risk and possible consequences of doing nothing are high. So sooner or later these issues get addressed, at some inconvenience to the early adopters.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=181062\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm certainly not an expert on Canon camera assembly, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express... and that's the point - a Canon person may be tempted to explain it better.  In this day and age of Internet company representatives should indeed talk to the customers also in forums like this one, and use the same tools to defend their reputation.  And believe it or not, some companies do that, even companies bigger than Canon (such as Intel for example).  

So of course you are right that it's corporate culture and not technical ability per se - I'm sure the engineers are able to eventually solve this issue -- maybe in the next model.  Btw. the robotic assembly of today's point and shoot cameras with their tiny lens elements and other parts is really something to admire and getting quickly better.   Of course, these cameras in general can not be repaired by humans after assembly, but since they are cheap, they can be replaced.  Not so with Ds MarkIII...
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on March 17, 2008, 07:37:04 am
Hi Dottore - yes, well I've stayed at a Holiday Inn Express too, so that makes both of us geniae.     In whatever way they are assembling the 1Ds3, the re-assuring element is that people who've had this problem are getting them back repaired or replaced satisfactorily - that is what most of the evidence so far indicates, so I guess I'm a bit more optimistic about the high-end of the product line than you seem to be. I'm sure Canon has learned a lot from recent episodes with both the 1D3 and the 1Ds3, but it seems unlike some other companies, they simply don't have the corporate culture of candour with their customers. In fact one Canon rep told me over the phone that they DO NOT come to any conclusions about performance issues or design their support policies around what is said on web forums - (but it's also clear that they do read them). Perhaps that attitude will be be cured eventually with increasing competition in this market niche.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Dinarius on March 17, 2008, 07:37:28 am
Just to say that I have only just now found time to install the grid focusing screen and check this replacement (not repair) camera.

It's totally flawless!  

And not only does it have a perfectly aligned viewfinder, it also came with zero exposures clocked on the counter (my first one didn't) and the sensor is totally spotless (again, the first camera's sensor was a little spotty).

All in all, this camera is exactly as my 5D was and is how my first 1DsM3 should have been a couple of months back.

Just goes to show that it pays to throw your toys out of the pram occasionally.

I am (finally) a very happy camper.

D.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: sojournerphoto on March 17, 2008, 10:51:00 am
Quote
Just to say that I have only just now found time to install the grid focusing screen and check this replacement (not repair) camera.

It's totally flawless!   

And not only does it have a perfectly aligned viewfinder, it also came with zero exposures clocked on the counter (my first one didn't) and the sensor is totally spotless (again, the first camera's sensor was a little spotty).

All in all, this camera is exactly as my 5D was and is how my first 1DsM3 should have been a couple of months back.

Just goes to show that it pays to throw your toys out of the pram occasionally.

I am (finally) a very happy camper.

D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182076\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Soon you will be contributing to the 'in praise of the Ds3 thread':)

Mike
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Justinr on March 17, 2008, 05:09:36 pm
Just over a year ago I bought a 30D and have experienced the following-

- Sloping horizons (the subject of this thread)
- AF tracking totally worthless
- Inconsistent exposures

This latter one I have not seen discussed at all but take a look at these two shots-  www.tipphorse.com/subpage7.html

They were taken within one minute of each other with absolutely no change in camera settings other than a slight adjustment to focal length on the Sigma EX 80-400 zoom. I was pointing the camera in more or less the same direction. Now, as photographs they would normally be deleted but I've kept them as one further reason why I no longer have any faith in Canon.

Justin.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on March 17, 2008, 06:16:30 pm
Quote
They were taken within one minute of each other with absolutely no change in camera settings other than a slight adjustment to focal length on the Sigma EX 80-400 zoom. I was pointing the camera in more or less the same direction. Now, as photographs they would normally be deleted but I've kept them as one further reason why I no longer have any faith in Canon.

Repost them without stripping the EXIF data, and isolating the cause of the problem will be a lot easier.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: sojournerphoto on March 17, 2008, 08:13:29 pm
Back to the thread - after running micro adjustment tests tonight on my lenses (only the 85 f1.8 needed an adjustment of +5 and the 25-105L was a bit funny, being spot on at 24mm for close things, but front focusing slightly at longer distance,  and at 105 spot on regardless of distance) I thought I'd have ago at the viewfinder alignment. It seems pretty straight, but part of the image in the viewfinder is cropped off the bottom of the frame and the top gains a bit. Less than the gaps on the 5D, but cause for canon to fix it none the less.

Mike
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Justinr on March 17, 2008, 08:43:05 pm
Its getting late so I have not time to dig out the metadata on the two shots but I am pretty sure from memory the figures were the same except for the focal length.

But that is beside the point. A camera should not produce this sort of variance in picture quality when no alteration has been made to the settings and the lighting has hardly changed, if at all. If you are looking to rely upon a camera to produce consistent images then a problem is a problem irrespective of the cause.

Justin.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on March 17, 2008, 09:05:15 pm
Quote
Its getting late so I have not time to dig out the metadata on the two shots but I am pretty sure from memory the figures were the same except for the focal length.

But that is beside the point. A camera should not produce this sort of variance in picture quality when no alteration has been made to the settings and the lighting has hardly changed, if at all. If you are looking to rely upon a camera to produce consistent images then a problem is a problem irrespective of the cause.

Not true. You may have invertently activated bracketing, which would alter the exposure even if you were in manual mode. Or you may have had the camera in Av or Tv mode, in which case changing the framing could have altered the camera's meter reading. Or you may have bumped the mode dial to an adjacent mode. Or the aperture in the lens could be sticky and not always stopping down to the correct aperture. Or even if you were in full manual mode, and no camera settings changed, if it was a partly cloudy day the lighting could have changed that much between shots. There's many possibilities to consider other than a defective camera.

Post links to the original files from the camera.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: jeremydillon on March 25, 2008, 09:17:18 pm
Just to let people in Melbourne know that Burwood now does the vf allignment on site (they used to have to send them to Sydney). When I dropped my camera off this morning they told me that they now have "the tool" to do it.
I'll be picking the camera up on Tuesday ... I'll let you know how it goes.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Dinarius on March 26, 2008, 02:00:54 pm
Quote
Back to the thread - after running micro adjustment tests tonight on my lenses (only the 85 f1.8 needed an adjustment of +5 and the 25-105L was a bit funny, being spot on at 24mm for close things, but front focusing slightly at longer distance,  and at 105 spot on regardless of distance) I thought I'd have ago at the viewfinder alignment. It seems pretty straight, but part of the image in the viewfinder is cropped off the bottom of the frame and the top gains a bit. Less than the gaps on the 5D, but cause for canon to fix it none the less.

Mike
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=182252\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Cropping, in addition to mis-alignment, was also a problem with my first Mk3. The replacement is perfect on all counts.

D.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: sojournerphoto on March 26, 2008, 08:42:21 pm
Quote
Cropping, in addition to mis-alignment, was also a problem with my first Mk3. The replacement is perfect on all counts.

D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184482\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Interestingly, Canon suggested I initially contact the retailer for a replacement. I'll report how it goes.

Mike
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Dinarius on March 27, 2008, 02:21:26 pm
Quote
Interestingly, Canon suggested I initially contact the retailer for a replacement. I'll report how it goes.

Mike
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=184581\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I didn't deal with Canon at all. I dealt only with my dealer who is a professional reseller (i.e. they have no high-street presence) who insisted, on my behalf, on a replacement and not a repair.

On the issue of cropping, the simplest way to test it is to frame something close and tight such as some text from a newspaper. Then switch on Live View and compare what you are seeing on the screen with what's visible in the viewfinder. You may be surprised!

D.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Justinr on March 28, 2008, 10:55:19 am
It is interesting to note that one correspondent upon this subject has sloping horizons on  some images presented within a post on another thread.

Justin.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Dinarius on March 28, 2008, 02:19:39 pm
Update:

Today was the first day I've really had a chance to use the replacement Mk3 in earnest. I've been shooting MFDB the last two weeks.

All is not as well as I'd hoped, but I'm going to put up with it.

1. While alignment is flawless, there is some discrepancy between what I am seeing in the viewfinder and what is on Live View/Captured File, namely, in a tightly framed scene there is some clipping across the bottom of the frame. So, with critical compositions it is necessary to use the Live View to be sure you're getting everything you want in shot.

2. When shooting a uniformly lit subject against a white background I noticed that there was a faint shadow line across the bottom of the frame. This had all the hallmarks of an incorrect sync speed, so I set this shutter to 1/200 (instead of 1/250). Still the same problem, though the shadow line was fainter. At 1/160 it was fainter still, though still visible.

Only at 1/125 sec. and longer was there a clean image. So, unless I have set something incorrectly in the camera (suggestions on a postcard please!   ) my camera does not sync as claimed. Annoying, but not the end of the world. I guess they'll never get this camera quite right.

By the way, anyone wishing to try to test for this will easily see the shadowing on the camera's screen (make sure the the white wall, or whatever, is evenly lit) but, you can confirm it using ACR's colour picker.

D.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: canmiya on March 28, 2008, 03:37:21 pm
Quote
Update:

All is not as well as I'd hoped, but I'm going to put up with it.

..... When shooting a uniformly lit subject against a white background I noticed that there was a faint shadow line across the bottom of the frame. This had all the hallmarks of an incorrect sync speed, so I set this shutter to 1/200 (instead of 1/250). Still the same problem, though the shadow line was fainter. At 1/160 it was fainter still, though still visible.

Only at 1/125 sec. and longer was there a clean image. So, unless I have set something incorrectly in the camera (suggestions on a postcard please!   ) my camera does not sync as claimed. Annoying, but not the end of the world. I guess they'll never get this camera quite right.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185035\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i think you camera is syncing properly:  if you are shooting with studio strobes the recommended sync speed is 1/125 or slower...the higher sync speeds generally apply to compact ie. speedlite and speedlite compatible units...
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Dinarius on March 28, 2008, 04:08:06 pm
Quote
i think you camera is syncing properly:  if you are shooting with studio strobes the recommended sync speed is 1/125 or slower...the higher sync speeds generally apply to compact ie. speedlite and speedlite compatible units...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185050\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I wasn't aware of that. Thank you for clearing that up.

D.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: djgarcia on March 28, 2008, 04:44:14 pm
Quote
i think you camera is syncing properly:  if you are shooting with studio strobes the recommended sync speed is 1/125 or slower...the higher sync speeds generally apply to compact ie. speedlite and speedlite compatible units...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=185050\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yep. The strong strobes take a bit more time for all that light to come out .
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: carl dw on April 05, 2008, 07:09:26 pm
Sixth time lucky...

It's now about three months since my first disappointing brush with the 1DsMkIII.

Following my return of FOUR bodies in January with mis-alignment issues me dealer called earlier this week to let me know he'd received four fresh new bodies, oh what jolly excitement.

Having tentatively offered my credit card I took the camera to my studio for a closer look...and surprise, surprise... discovered they still haven't figured out how to put the sensor in straight!! - OK, it's not as bad as the first four, but still not where it should be.

So, I make a cup of coffee, sit down and start to wonder if I simply have to accept this shoddy workmanship as the new norm for Canon.... or see if another camera manufacturer can do a better job.

I decided to hang onto the camera and take a print of my findings to the dealer. He agreed it wasn't good and asked if I'd like to give yet another one a last try... OK says I.

I nearly fell over when I discovered the sensor in this SIXTH body was in EXACTLY the right place. Wow, was it a fluke? Who knows, but it seems (to me anyway, from my own hands-on experience) the odds are stacked well against getting a good copy of this camera.

 
It has been a frustrating and time consuming experience from which I've now made three observations..

1. When it's put together correctly, the 1DsMkIII is truly excellent.

2. Canon needs to pull it's socks up when it comes to quality control and customer care.

3. It's important to develop a good working relationship with your local camera dealer.


...and the cherry on the cake is that the camera has dropped in price by £1200 since January - so thanks be to Canon for an unexpected week in the Greek Islands in return for all the hassle!!
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Dinarius on April 06, 2008, 03:32:06 am
Interesting that you had problems with the sensor. I never did, or at least I don't think I did. With the three Mk3s I used, what I was seeing on Live View was exactly what I was getting. Of course, live view can only see what the sensor is seeing    but my point is that it was perfectly aligned with the grid.

On the other hand, two of the bodies had alignment problems, while all three (including the one I now own) had/have problems with clipping across the bottom of the viewfinder.

I guess you could argue that the viewfinder frame is correctly installed and that the sensor is not installed to match it!   But, my money is on the viewfinder frame not being the 100% viewable area that it should be.

Bangs for my buck, the 5D is still the best camera I have ever owned and that includes all my film cameras, with the possible exception of my Sinar P.

D.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: Mark D Segal on April 06, 2008, 09:48:45 am
Quote
Who knows, but it seems (to me anyway, from my own hands-on experience) the odds are stacked well against getting a good copy of this camera.

 
It has been a frustrating and time consuming experience from which I've now made three observations..

1. When it's put together correctly, the 1DsMkIII is truly excellent.

2. Canon needs to pull it's socks up when it comes to quality control and customer care.

3. It's important to develop a good working relationship with your local camera dealer.
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I don't think your experience alone is sufficient to conclude that in general the odds are stakced against getting a correct copy, but your three observations have real merit. One hopes #2 will happen as a result of increasing competition.
Title: Canon 1ds3 alignment problems
Post by: canon_uw on April 25, 2008, 08:10:09 pm
Third time's the charm.

Dropped the camera off at Irvine a second time with a print-out of the issue and received it back, fixed, after four business days.