Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: Stuarte on December 16, 2007, 07:25:01 pm

Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: Stuarte on December 16, 2007, 07:25:01 pm
The more I learn, the less I find myself taking new photos or even working with my existing ones.

First off, let me be clear that I find LL and the LL forum to be outstanding resources full of helpful people.  I am a hobby photographer of 30+ years.  Here I have learned about more technical matters, aesthetic matters and issues than I ever suspected might exist.  And yet the net effect of all this is that I have barely taken or worked with a photo for months.  

Yet the more I read and see, the more I doubt my kit and myself and the less pleasure I have found in taking pictures.  I find this a strange contrast with two other hobbies of mine.  

I started learning piano a couple of years ago and have weekly lessons.  I listen to a lot of great pianists, and my own fumbling efforts will be far surpassed by my 11-year-old son within a year or two.  Yet I would rather spend an hour a day engrossed in practicing and fumbling through Bach than listening to great pianists.

Having played tennis very sporadically since my teens, I've been taking weekly lessons for almost a year now - until recently with a racket I bought seven years ago. My game is pretty inconsistent and here too my 11-year-old will be wupping me before too much longer.  Yet I get huge pleasure from playing and learning.  
 
Maybe I just need to stick to happy snapping.
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: Tim Gray on December 16, 2007, 07:49:27 pm
Quote
The more I learn, the less I find myself taking new photos or even working with my existing ones.

First off, let me be clear that I find LL and the LL forum to be outstanding resources full of helpful people.  I am a hobby photographer of 30+ years.  Here I have learned about more technical matters, aesthetic matters and issues than I ever suspected might exist.  And yet the net effect of all this is that I have barely taken or worked with a photo for months. 

Yet the more I read and see, the more I doubt my kit and myself and the less pleasure I have found in taking pictures.  I find this a strange contrast with two other hobbies of mine. 

I started learning piano a couple of years ago and have weekly lessons.  I listen to a lot of great pianists, and my own fumbling efforts will be far surpassed by my 11-year-old son within a year or two.  Yet I would rather spend an hour a day engrossed in practicing and fumbling through Bach than listening to great pianists.

Having played tennis very sporadically since my teens, I've been taking weekly lessons for almost a year now - until recently with a racket I bought seven years ago. My game is pretty inconsistent and here too my 11-year-old will be wupping me before too much longer.  Yet I get huge pleasure from playing and learning. 
 
Maybe I just need to stick to happy snapping.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=161097\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


So we have weekly lessons (and presumably a fair amount of practice time) from a professional in two other areas, and you're deriving some satisfaction, so it seems.  As for photography  no lessons, no professional help and a lack of satisfaction.  I wonder if there's a connection?
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: Jonathan Wienke on December 16, 2007, 08:59:04 pm
Quote
Yet the more I read and see, the more I doubt my kit and myself and the less pleasure I have found in taking pictures.  I find this a strange contrast with two other hobbies of mine.

There's not a lot we can do to help you. The motivation to make use of your new-found knowledge must come from within.
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on December 16, 2007, 09:24:42 pm
Don't worry about your kit. Just go take pictures of something you find interesting (a piano? tennis players? whatever!)
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: GerardK on December 17, 2007, 02:45:19 am
This should be the last post you read on this or any other forum for, let's say, three months. Shut down your computer, pick up your camera and go take some pictures! Then come back and share your experiences.


Gerard Kingma
www.kingma.nu (http://www.kingma.nu)
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: Ray on December 17, 2007, 03:57:43 am
Quote
Yet the more I read and see, the more I doubt my kit and myself and the less pleasure I have found in taking pictures.  I find this a strange contrast with two other hobbies of mine. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=161097\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hobbies can be like mistresses competing for one's attention. Before my interest in photography was renewed with the advent of the digital darkroom and the exciting developments in affordable DSLR cameras, I used to practice the piano a lot.

I used to get great satisfaction in mastering (after a fashion) a Beethoven piano sonata or a Bach two part invention. I would practice scales and arpeggios endlessly till eventually I began to suffer from repetitive strain injury and would have to rub warm comfrey ointment on the elbow of my left arm, then dip my elbow in ice. (If one is right handed, then the left hand is the weak link when playing the piano. It needs special strengthening exercises.)

I found that the more I got interested in Photography, and computers which are essentially a photographic tool for me, the less time I had available to devote to practicising the piano. Something has to give. If you want to achieve anything significant, you have to devote your full attention to it.

As a general guide, do what is most meaningful to you.
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: Rob C on December 17, 2007, 06:51:25 am
Stuhar

I don´t find your quandry strange at all; on the contrary, I can understand it only too well!

I believe that the root problem is down to something which I have stated here to the point of boring any reader: were photography in the 50s and 60s when I was falling in love with the medium digital-based, then I doubt that I would have ever fallen for it to the extent of choosing it as my lifework, sticking with it through thick and thin.

The basic fault that I find, and which the fact that you have already had long exposure to the medium might indicate that you share, is that where it was once something that was simple to do well, the entire focus and skill of the thing being in the eye and mind, this has changed to the extent that you need a host of other character attributes to hack it today.

In essence, you need a technical mind more than you need an artistic one.

Before the alarm bells ring, I´m NOT saying that digital has stopped creativity; I´m saying that it has attracted an entirely different breed of practitioner.

It is nothing to do with getting outside coaching; it is everything to do with feeling motivated and interested in the medium. Advice? For what it´s worth, shoot film and use a dedicated film scanner. If that doesn´t bring back the buzz, then forget it as somewhere you´ve been but don´t really want to visit again.

Ciao- Rob C
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: Chris_T on December 17, 2007, 01:21:15 pm
Quote
The more I learn, the less I find myself taking new photos or even working with my existing ones.

[snip]

Yet the more I read and see, the more I doubt my kit and myself and the less pleasure I have found in taking pictures.

[snip]

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=161097\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Perhaps you can elaborate on *why* you feel this way. If you don't know why, do some soul searching first and let us know. Some possibilities:

- From your other posts, it seems like you stopped photography for a while in the past and then returned to it. What led you through that loop? Are you feeling the same way?

- You also seem to be just getting into digital. Is the transition getting to you?

- Are you feeling insecure about your kit and/or your work because others seem to have better?
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: Stuarte on December 17, 2007, 06:19:25 pm
Thanks to all for taking the trouble to respond to a rather callow, navel-gazing OP.  

I'll be reflecting further on some very useful comments and questions here, but in the meantime....

Regarding tuition, I did a PhotoShop how-to course over 10 weeks (about 30 hours tuition) earlier this year.  Interesting, but technically overwhelming and yet more computer time needed. I write for a living and spend 8-9 hours a day tethered to the machine as it is.  So I'm sticking to Lightroom.

Much as I'm moved and excited by things I see - the visual side of life - it's probably my weakest and least developed sense.  My wife agonizes over exactly which shade of blue-grey-green to paint the wall; I see the difference between shades but I don't feel strongly one way or another.  I'm a lot more tuned into auditory (speech and music) and into kinesthetic (movement and sensations), which would explain why piano and tennis are sufficient unto themselves for me.

So I guess what I'm dealing with, among other things, is a desire to respond to what I see that touches me, but I lack a coherent "vision" or "point of view" in how I respond.
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: Rob C on December 18, 2007, 12:30:02 pm
Quote
Thanks to all for taking the trouble to respond to a rather callow, navel-gazing OP. 

I'll be reflecting further on some very useful comments and questions here, but in the meantime....

Regarding tuition, I did a PhotoShop how-to course over 10 weeks (about 30 hours tuition) earlier this year.  Interesting, but technically overwhelming and yet more computer time needed. I write for a living and spend 8-9 hours a day tethered to the machine as it is.  So I'm sticking to Lightroom.

Much as I'm moved and excited by things I see - the visual side of life - it's probably my weakest and least developed sense.  My wife agonizes over exactly which shade of blue-grey-green to paint the wall; I see the difference between shades but I don't feel strongly one way or another.  I'm a lot more tuned into auditory (speech and music) and into kinesthetic (movement and sensations), which would explain why piano and tennis are sufficient unto themselves for me.

So I guess what I'm dealing with, among other things, is a desire to respond to what I see that touches me, but I lack a coherent "vision" or "point of view" in how I respond.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=161327\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Stuhar

If confronted with choosing shades of blue-grey-green for a wall, then I applaud you reluctance to take any active part in the debate: the blame could last for years, whatever the choice.

The speech and music thing is very interesting. I love reading AA Gill, amongst others, and also take much pleasure in singing along with KLRZFM which I usually have on the computer when sitting before the damn thing, as much in wonder as in sorrow. But, I am incapable of singing a single note, any note, which might at first glance seem impossible, but I am assured that without a shadow of a doubt, that is indeed the case. So, my auditory joys are conducted in the main via headphones and within a closed room. On my own, of course.

As you will have noted, that gives me a fairly basic but totally coherent manner of dealing with audio! Also, it might go some way to illustrating that something you can´t do well - at all, in this case - seems ever so much more a thing of desire than it might be for another person not so musically short-changed.

So, in order to attain the same state of enlightenment with your photography, do as Nike says, regardless of how prepared or otherwise you might think yourself to be. It´s the doing that counts: don´t philosophize, photograph.

Ciao - Rob C
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: James Godman on December 18, 2007, 06:36:27 pm
Technical overload is something that can very easily occur these days.  I try to learn as little new software as possible and generally try to be as low tech as possible (but that doesn't mean that I'm low tech, just as low tech as possible).  I don't know of any software that can help you, but this book is worth a try:  Perception and Imaging / Photographs - A Way of Seeing (3rd Edition), by Dr. Richard Zakia.

Dr. Zakia was a direct influence on me when I had the chance to study under him in Paris in the 90's, and is an incredible guy, and most importantly for you, has written another stellar book.

But really the only way I know of to get out of a slump is to get out there and shoot and be open to accidents and discover new ways of doing things.

Good luck.
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: Rob C on December 19, 2007, 03:01:02 pm
James - a unique vision and most interesting take on life.

 I´m sure you can´t have a love for pigeonholes, but if that can be leaped over, then where do you consider yourself to fit? I´m certainly not suggesting anyone HAS to fit, just curious about how/where you see your own direction headed. Is your commercial work similar or do you keep the personal separate, a pigeonhole of its own, in fact;-)

Ciao - Rob C
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: James Godman on December 20, 2007, 02:52:41 am
Hey Rob-  I'm not sure if that's my take on life or just a wacky way of doing things    I don't know where I fit, but I do enjoy doing many different things related to art.  I teach a little, I shoot stock (some of which I would never put in my portfolio), do commercial jobs, editorial jobs, make prints, and even paint.  I do these things because I love to do them (granted, sometimes I'd rather be painting than doing a certain type of commercial job).  Thankfully, others have decided I do an okay job with this stuff so I make some money.  I guess I don't consider myself to be pigeonholed to answer your question.  The commercial work informs the personal work and vice versa, the photography informs the painting and vice versa, and the teaching informs my heart.

I'm not sure if I posted this here before, but here's some work I've done for one particular design firm.  Seems like a fairly diverse array of work looking at it now, with some very simple corporate stuff, and some other work that was more fun with a lot of running around and being on boats etc.:  

http://www.godman.com/#mi=1&pt=2&pi=11000&...at=0&pw=samples (http://www.godman.com/#mi=1&pt=2&pi=11000&p=-1&a=0&at=0&pw=samples)

Here's some paintings:  http://www.godman.com/#mi=1&pt=2&pi=11000&...=0&pw=paintings (http://www.godman.com/#mi=1&pt=2&pi=11000&p=-1&a=0&at=0&pw=paintings)

Getting back to Stuhar's original thought, I'd suggest that if you are working in front of a computer all day, try and take a break from it, and go outside, take pictures with a 4x5, process them in your bathtub, and then go make cyanotypes in the sun.  That ought to be fun.  Hell, I'd join you if I were in the UK!  Oh, wait a minute, its probably cold and dreary about now, kind of like it is around Chicago a lot.  But anyway, you get the point.  

I also believe that this is a really exciting time to be a photographer.  More tools than ever to do cool stuff.  It's 1:45 in the morning and I'm listening to a Radiohead album that I paid a few bucks for to download and listen to on some speakers I've got plugged in to this computer.  Its kinda loud to drown out the whir of this really big printer behind me that pops out these amazing prints, from these amazing scans that I did on my desk.  This stuff is cool.
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: Geoff Wittig on December 20, 2007, 07:17:07 am
I've definitely gone through "dry spells" when I couldn't seem to get motivated enough to take new photographs, in part because I was worried that I wouldn't be able to match my best stuff. It's too tempting to apply those improved printing skills to old favorite images, as your shooting skills get stale.

The best answer to this I have found was a column by Dewitt Jones in Outdoor Photographer a few years ago, when he related how as a child he and his friends would mope around the house bored stiff in July until his mother would kick them out of the house and insist they "go outside and play". Soon all was well. So that's what I do; I may be grumbling and unmotivated, but I'll gear-up and go for a hike in a promising location. Next thing I know, I'm all wrapped up in shooting new images, my ennui forgotten.
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: klaud on December 20, 2007, 07:58:56 am
Stuhar
Maybe abandon the digital stuff as was suggested and just go back to taking pictures the good old fashion way.  I'm surprised that you are having a hard time reconnecting.  You mentioned that you write for a living........there's a documented link between "seeing pictures" , images and writing.  Also the music and the photography are more closely related.   I find with the digital stuff you only need to learn as much as you're willing to use.  You mention that you've been shooting for years so I'm sure you take a pretty good shot technically.  So with the digital keep it simple, learn what you need to learn and slowly progress from there.  A good workshop goes a long way also!  Good Luck.
Klaud
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: Rob C on December 20, 2007, 11:59:24 am
I think these last few posts have all carried very sound opinion.

The point about PS reflects my own position, where I have managed to learn what I feel I need to know in order to do what I could formerly manage in wet printing. Having never been a fan of combining negatives etc. I seldom use many of the ´oportunities´ that PS offers in that direction, the most exciting thing I might do is mask a bit of something in order to make the rest of the pic a little different. Certainly not rocket science nor even PS wizardry, but it doesn´t matter that much to me just as long as my basic needs are met.

The point about reworking old favourites gave me an instant ouch! moment; been there, suffered the knowing behind what I was doing, but still have to admit to finding the trip backwards often leads to unexpected leaps forward from the same original. But yes, one should not abandon the new searching nor ever question how good it might be or not be. Given the same circumstances, would age really lead to the production of an inferior picture? Possibly not, with the accumulated experience to help things along a bit. Or, would that slow it all down to inactivity, too  much procrastination while the moment slips past one?

Do writers agonise in public to this extent? Is Californication based on fact?

Ciao - Rob C
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: Rob C on December 20, 2007, 12:17:19 pm
James

Thanks for the reply and the links to more of your photography and the paintings.

I refuse to believe that there was no such thing as a free lunch with at least ONE of the photography clients!

Regarding the paintings, I find that sort of approach very interesting and on the good side of ´modern´ if you will forgive the generalisation (pigeonholes again!), with one exception: number four hits me right between the ears with memories of Peter Beard photographs where he employs blood along the margins and into parts of the images; not that you have anything like that, but its an example of how once an idea gets lodged in the mind, it affects visuals in other situations too, just a smear of colour being enough to kick it into play.

From a photographic point of view, I wonder why Beard ever felt the urge to do that, why it even occurred to him.

Rob C
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: dilip on December 20, 2007, 01:30:47 pm
Stuhar,

I feel your pain.

Photography, as a hobby (not a profession), requires that you want to lug gear around and requires that you put yourself into the proper frame of mind to see photos (as a profession, you don't have the freedom to get bored and put it down I would assume).

Take a break.  I often find that I do just that.  Then something clicks and I go on another binge.  Travel often helps induce the binge.  Visiting my family who assume that I'll take all the photos seems to put me in the mood to not have the camera in my posession.

I just finished a trip to Australia, and haven't fully looked through the photos.  I know that I will when the rest of my life settles a bit.  But that does mean months.

So here's the only thing that I can offer you.  Feel free to wander away.  The only thing that I would say before you put down the gear for a bit is that you should force yourself to go out and shoot with a goal in mind on some weekend.  It may push you over the initial resistance.

As for your gear... insufficient gear trains you to do things differently.  If I don't have the wide angle lens I want, I either have to back up, or look for a different photo.  Don't think of it as a limitation, think of it as a challenge.  Remember, the photo taken by insufficient gear is infinitely better to work with than the result of not taking any photos.

--dilip

Quote
Thanks to all for taking the trouble to respond to a rather callow, navel-gazing OP. 

I'll be reflecting further on some very useful comments and questions here, but in the meantime....

Regarding tuition, I did a PhotoShop how-to course over 10 weeks (about 30 hours tuition) earlier this year.  Interesting, but technically overwhelming and yet more computer time needed. I write for a living and spend 8-9 hours a day tethered to the machine as it is.  So I'm sticking to Lightroom.

Much as I'm moved and excited by things I see - the visual side of life - it's probably my weakest and least developed sense.  My wife agonizes over exactly which shade of blue-grey-green to paint the wall; I see the difference between shades but I don't feel strongly one way or another.  I'm a lot more tuned into auditory (speech and music) and into kinesthetic (movement and sensations), which would explain why piano and tennis are sufficient unto themselves for me.

So I guess what I'm dealing with, among other things, is a desire to respond to what I see that touches me, but I lack a coherent "vision" or "point of view" in how I respond.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=161327\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: James Godman on December 20, 2007, 07:51:03 pm
Rob-  Interesting thoughts, and we all bring our own experiences and history to the act of viewing images (and of course creating them).  The fact that you immediately referenced Peter Beard when you looked at my painting is great.  His work never crossed my mind when creating or looking at that one, even though I'm familiar with his work.  The fact that you had a reaction at all is what I care about.  Even if someone hates the work, at least they aren't indifferent about it.  Indifference is the enemy of feeling alive.

At any rate, I don't know why Peter Beard smeared blood on his prints.  Perhaps it was to apply some measure of nature to the work, to make it more organic on a few levels.  But I do know that I enjoy looking at his work.
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: walter.sk on December 21, 2007, 08:59:24 am
Several thoughts occurred to me as I read your opening post on this topic.

1)  You compare yourself to others and fear that you will never be "as good" as they are.  Perhaps this is a part of your getting older and taking stock of your life so far.  But don't forget that when you see others' work (or piano playing, tennis, etc) you see their successes and not their failures.  We all have our shoeboxes filled with stuff that just didn't do what we wanted.

2) You seem to be a very harsh judge of yourself.  Being self critical is, of course, necessary for growth, but it sounds as if you condemn yourself for not having progressed further.

3)  I agree with other responders here, who urge you to leave the computer and go out and shoot.  Some of us seek intellectually to learn how to be competent at something and instead of our anxiety becoming diminished it only increases to the point where we feel inadequate and stymied.  This is because the learning has become abstracted from the practice.  Would you give your 11-year old a book on photography, or a camera?

4) You might want to try an experiment.  Why not go out with your 11-year old, each with a disposable camera or two.  Take a hike through the woods, or your town, or a city you have not been in for a while.  Maybe a zoo, where the appeal of the animals will inspire you.  Limiting yourself to 24 or 48 pictures, you will look around and suddenly see a shot that might be fun to record.  Soon you will become more "choosy," as the number of shots remaining becomes smaller.  Then, bring them in for processing.  View them as 4x6 or whatever the print size will be, and see if one or two captures the feeling you wanted.  Then, take your "real" camera and one lens, and go back to the same location, this time knowing what you want to capture.

5)  Stop worrying about your kit's quality.  I have lenses ranging from a $70 50mm 2.0 to a $5400 500mm 4.0.  I frequently use my 28-135 with Image Stabilization.  You can find thousands of words of disdain about that lens on many amateurs' forums, but many of the pros I know have that lens as well.  It is not the kit that determines the impact of your images.  When people look at one of my pictures and say "You must have a very good camera" I say "That was a wonderful meal.  You must have quite a good set of pots!"

6)  Forget about "learning" Photoshop, Lightroom, or other software.  Again, abstract learning is meaningless.  Instead, look at one of your images and decide the basic things that have to be done to it:  is it too dark? too low in contrast?  is there a jet contrail going past the church spire that you'd like to remove cleanly?  Then, one at a time, learn the specific Photoshop skills you need for basic optimization.  Don't worry about layers, channels, masks, etc. until the time when you absolutely must  use them for a given picture.  If you use only what is necessary, when you need it, you will learn a few techniques very well.  To repeat an earlier point, trying to learn more than you actually need to for a given task can only be overwhelming and frustrating, and convey the feelings of inadequacy that will extinguish the flame of creativity.

I hope you don't feel I'm talking down to you in terms of the skills you do have.
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: Chris_T on December 21, 2007, 09:06:13 am
I'm combining a few quotes here.

Quote
Technical overload is something that can very easily occur these days. I try to learn as little new software as possible and generally try to be as low tech as possible (but that doesn't mean that I'm low tech, just as low tech as possible).

Quote
The point about PS reflects my own position, where I have managed to learn what I feel I need to know in order to do what I could formerly manage in wet printing.

Agreed. Regarding how to deal with digital technology and transition, I wrote in another thread:

...the film photo technology took 175 years to mature, and the digital photo technology is only a couple of decades old. I expect there is a long way to go before all the digital kinks are worked out, and many current "established" techniques will be dramatically different (for the better). At this stage, we are all guinea pigs. This guy tells his story in his aptly titled article "The Hamster Wheel of Progress":

http://www.huntingtonwitherill.com/ (http://www.huntingtonwitherill.com/)

Like him, I have concluded chasing every new tool/technique is beyond my budget and time. Using what I already have and know is sufficient for most of my work, and I would much prefer to focus on photographing. I do peek at what's new, but would only pursue them if they can make a difference in my work noticeable not only by me, but by others as well.


At the risk of starting a controversy, I would venture to say that the digital photo technology today may be analogous to the times before Tri-x or Kodachrome were available, or when b/w transitioned to color. (I wasn't around then, so can't be certain.) In those days, there were probably numerous photogs and vendors trying out different film types, processing methods, printing media, etc. But that did not stop the creation of great works. When the dust finally settled, most photogs would enjoy the luxury of a mature technology and return to photographing.

Quote
So I guess what I'm dealing with, among other things, is a desire to respond to what I see that touches me, but I lack a coherent "vision" or "point of view" in how I respond.

By feeling or noting (rightfully or otherwise) shortcomings in one's work should be treated as a positive, not a negative. Those who feel that their works are perfect would stop looking for improvements.

I always come back with mixed emotions after visiting galleries. Sometimes the great works make me wonder why do I even bother. Other times I feel the challenge and become more motivated. Yet other times, the bad works tell me that mine are not the worst.
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: Rob C on December 21, 2007, 11:20:15 am
Walter, absolutely right - learn what you feel you need as you go along, which is exactly what I do.

Rob C
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: plugsnpixels on December 21, 2007, 04:12:08 pm
Great first post and many interesting observations since!

I can relate to this situation on a few levels. I first started taking photos about 1974 as a teen. It came naturally, though no one else in the family that I interacted with regularly was a photographer. I was given my grandfather's old Kodak box camera and his old negatives, and my first adventure was to make blue sun prints. After that I used the family's Instamatic to shoot 126 Tri-X, which I developed and contact printed in my own little darkroom.

Then came high school and the yearbook, then shooting and writing for the local paper, college and the yearbook and other photo adventures, teaching photography at a college, doing freelance weddings and portraits, shooting for a dot-com in the late '90s--eventually it got to be a bit much!

At the end of the '90s, after a relocation across country, I got a higher-ed IT position (which I still have) which combined computer lab maintenance with oversight of the photo studio. I took to the computer just like I once did to the camera, and spent more time with computers and software than I did with actual photography. In fact, it was seeing a student's digital camera several years ago that got me back into shooting (now 100% digital). Since then, I could say my work has been better than ever before, even though I gravitate to more artsy stock-type/fine art work than the photojournalism and wedding stuff I used to do.

So what you need is a spark of some sort, or a new perspective, or a streamlining of interests--a prioritizing of goals. As you mention, it can be daunting and discouraging to climb the learning curve that each new camera or software revision presents. I personally have just about every software product currently available for digital imaging, art, 3D and productivity (for promotional purposes), and while that sounds like a good thing, it is actually like the kid with too many toys--you can't really enjoy the special ones because of the overwhelming abundance! At this point I have to learn to use each package just enough to be able to create screenshots and examples, but naturally (due to being spread thin) I am a master of none of them.

But thankfully I can keep it fresh and keep the interest up. When I get tired of image editing or page layout I can do some 3D terrains (I'd use Painter or Studio Artist more but I can't paint!). In your case, play a little piano, shoot a little (without worrying about your level of equipment), play some tennis on a rotating basis. Discover the particular thing that really captures your imagination and focus on it. And learn from your kid along the way! ;-)

PS: I sometimes think, "I wish I could shoot/design/etc. like so-and-so", but there's really no point in that. They're not trying to emulate someone else, they're being themselves, and that's what makes them unique! So each of us needs to do our own thing.
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: Steven Draper on January 04, 2008, 04:44:25 pm
This is a great post with some really good answers. I agree that it is very easy to overload on technical stuff, and the rate of change of equipment and software is easily frustrating to many in terms of both learning and price.

I can completely understand the position where-by someone just feels the whole subject of making a decent picture is amazingly complicated and impossible without mega $$ equipment, training, printers, computers etc.

There are IMO three aspects to photography, the issue of the artistic / visual / emotional content and then the technical level, from how the camera was set up, technique and processing, plus a knowledge of the subject.

It would be true to say that we all enter photography with a different natural level of the first aspect and some people see the artistic side better than others. But whatever our starting point we can all get better by practice, personal study and review, review from others (club competitions helped me out a lot) looking at other peoples work, and also parallel study such as drawing, painting. Many composition "rules" derive from the study of painters, which in turn often go back to mathematics.

Technically we all have to start, but my philosophy is that a basic understanding of a few general principles will take any photographer a long way very quickly. Like most things the output v knowledge level is not linear and it is true to say that the last few percentage of overall quality will often require an exponential level of equipment, knowledge, time, devotion etc.

Whilst the web is a great resource it is one to use carefully as for every well presented, honest and openly informative piece of information there are many others that may not be accurate, are misleading or are more about the poster and the promotion of themselves than really being truly helpful. So often when please CC, you'll see Great image without any supporting comments when honest reflection of the strengths and weaknesses would be much more helpful.

Also it is worth noting that it is much easier, although still a skill, to make a poor - OK image look a million $ on the web and then not be totally truthful so as to make others wonder why they cannot get the "honest" result from similar equipment.

There is a third aspect to photography and that is subject knowledge. For example I have a knowledge of meteorology and therefore I find a deeper level of interest in clouds than many. I have found that the desire to improve pictures of a subject has often involved learning more about the subject and I guess this leads to a richer view of the world as I journey along a path of life long learning.

Wow, I've gone on a bit, but in conclusion, you can do a lot with a little and from a hobby / pastime aspect, photography is also a journey of exploration and discovery with adventure, joy and heartbreak as we all secretly quest for those elusive defining images of our photographic talents.
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: Russell Price on January 06, 2008, 12:42:56 pm
Sometimes when I look at this site, along with the Galbraith site and Sportsshooter forum than a dose of PDN or PDNpulse.com, maybe throw in a few minutes of aphotoeditor.com and I want to crawl back into the hole and throw a few rolls of tri-x into my trusty Nikon F.

Yes, I also suffer from information overload.  The web and this site are enticing. Easy to get lost in all these mundane conversations or arguments.  To me it feels like digital gossip.  People holding court about this or that technique or piece of gear.  I would like to forget I ever read the medium-format versus DSLR camera conversations in the medium-format forum.  That forum is enough to swear off this site permantely.  The "experts" in that forum have all the answers to questions not being asked.  If they only had the images to back-up their ego's, than it would be worth reading.

Everyone is talking about the tools and not about the content.  Glad I can shut it down and go for a walk in my beautiful city
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: plugsnpixels on January 06, 2008, 02:32:43 pm
Russell, great comments! I can identify with what you say. I began shooting as a teen in the mid-70s, working my way into local photojournalism, and from that point ran into a number of unpleasant characters behind cameras! Later, I shot weddings; same thing.

I guess the same is true of musicians (to pick one of many other similar situations). Lots of ego, emphasis on hardware, not always the chops to back it up.

I learned long ago that overall it doesn't matter what camera you use, it's how you use it. Of course there are quality considerations and minimal technical specs to be considered, but for aesthetics think about a monkey with a DSLR vs. a kid with a Holga... The kid surely takes the better photos, and has fun doing it!

There's something about business that can suck the joy out of any field (photography, music, painting, etc.). That's why I wouldn't pursue photojournalism again; fine art is more attractive and personally fulfilling (but let's not get started on gallery attitude-!).

It's up to each of us to retain the innocence in our creative endeavors and ignore the nastiness.
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: Stuarte on January 07, 2008, 07:58:50 am
I am bowled over by the quality and the warmth of the postings in this thread.  Thank you to absolutely everyone who has posted.  I've been following the thread and reflecting a lot on it all.  I checked out the Richard Zakia book recommended by James G and have ordered it because it seems to address some of the things I'm interested in right now.

For the action-oriented JFDI types here (Jonathan W?) I must confess I've barely taken any more photos or even looked at any of my existing library.  In fact it's been a hard few months for hobbies - not least because my wife is in her second year as a mature medical student away from home, and she and the three kids (and the au pair) have needed quite a lot of attention.  Not to mention the paid work.

By way of background, I've been a journalist, translator, market researcher and "trend spotter" and I earn my living writing commissioned "think pieces".  I'm fascinated by how I/we experience being alive and make sense of it.  I'm blessed/cursed with a boundless capacity to reflect on and write about virtually anything that crosses my path.  My meanderings have taken me into various areas of psychology both theoretical and practical, as well sport, music, religion, technology and - well, you get the gist.

My original post was really an "out-loud" reflection on some things I was noticing in my life.  And on reflection, one of the things that strikes me is that for the people who populate this forum, photography and imaging seem to be axiomatic activities in life (doh!! Stuart, it's a photography forum!!) - as natural and necessary as conversation.  Whereas for me, looking back over thousands of analogue and digital images, I more often than not wonder "What was I doing and why did I bother?".  Quite a few are/were to capture a moment to share with other people (=snaps) and a very few have got a certain something special.  And the rest - I don't know.

I suspect that for me, the next level and the next motivation will be to work on specific projects rather than wandering round randomly with a camera.  And part of that will be to work towards specific outputs, e.g. a dozen 8x10 prints or something similarly tangible.
Title: The more I learn, the less I .....
Post by: Stuarte on February 19, 2008, 09:54:59 am
Update:

I took up at least one of the suggestions in this thread (!!!) and have engaged a LL forum member to tutor me remotely.  We've had one session so far but already I'm feeling more inspired and optimistic.