Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: JessicaLuchesi on December 11, 2007, 09:31:31 am

Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: JessicaLuchesi on December 11, 2007, 09:31:31 am
Reading the article, and several posts on the Sinar Hy6 system, one thing came to mind... Hasselblad has the incredible V system, a very successful design, one that I love, a full 6x6 body. While Sinar, Leaf and Mamyia are gaining on developing open platform solutions, Hassel is sticking to a closed down H3D system. And the only digital support Hassel gives to the V series, is a 16Mp back, hardly enough for today's demands on MFDB level photography.

Why doesn't Hasselblad create a new V series body, updated with everything the H3 series has to offer, leaving all great things from the legacy V systems, as an open system, viable competitor to Sinar and Mamyia? And not locking it for digital use only, leaving it still compatible with the A12 film back.

I know it's not something easy to do, but I wonder why no longer any development go on the V series, since it's really SO successful, even Hassel had to acknowledge it with the new 16Mp back, and for a while, it's been one of the systems of choice for using PhaseOne backs. It's not just gonna die away, so why not simply recognize it, and do a full update?

PS: And yes, if I had that kind of resource to invest in a MFDB now, I would request a Hy6 test before thinking on the H3D. As I'm on rental, it's the 501CM with a Phase One back for me.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: Morgan_Moore on December 11, 2007, 09:42:09 am
-Because people given choice might buy less Hassy backs and supposedly deveoping making bodies is a lossy business ??

-surely at the development stage of the H (some time ago) they realised the V design had to be scrapped if they wanted the H feature list including AF

-there is of course lost HC lens revenue to consider too

S
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: Mike W on December 11, 2007, 09:44:02 am
One would think they would do SOMETHING with it.....

One important remark; you can use Hasselblads top line mfdb's on the V-series as well.
All CF backs connect tot the 500's via an adapter.

To make it autofocus and electronic Hasselblad would have to reintroduce the 200 series. Doable,but since the 200 series was no big success, they're not inclined to do so...

Perhaps when square sensors hit the market in the future?

regards,

Mike
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: roskav on December 11, 2007, 09:51:54 am
I use a V series regularly with an Aptus 75 .. it's great, lightweight, flexible and economic system.  I think it has plenty of years in it still.

Ros
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: tom_l on December 11, 2007, 10:01:04 am
For people (like me) who do a lot of studio, some architecture. The V system is still an interesting system. Don't count on Hasselblad to update the 500 series bodies.

But i think there might be a market for CFV backs. The 16MP back was a great ides, but with the wrong sensor, I suppose it was a solution for Hasselblad to get rid of their square sensors in stock. Now, if Hasslelblad is intelligent enough to sell their 22mp chip in this back for <7500 Euro, they can count on a whole new market to join MF community: semi-pro's, wedding guys, artists...


Tom
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: Snook on December 11, 2007, 10:18:25 am
Quote
For people (like me) who do a lot of studio, some architecture. The V system is still an interesting system. Don't count on Hasselblad to update the 500 series bodies.

But i think there might be a market for CFV backs. The 16MP back was a great ides, but with the wrong sensor, I suppose it was a solution for Hasselblad to get rid of their square sensors in stock. Now, if Hasslelblad is intelligent enough to sell their 22mp chip in this back for <7500 Euro, they can count on a whole new market to join MF community: semi-pro's, wedding guys, artists...
Tom
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HassleBlads is going backwards really FAST...
They thought they were being clever trying to close out the market for themselves.
I checked out a H3DII last week and I thought is was utterly Cr@p!
Plastic, overpriced, slow focusing JUNK. IMHO.
The software looked way over complicated also.
Snook
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: H1/A75 Guy on December 11, 2007, 10:27:50 am
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H3DII, slow focusing JUNK.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=159863\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
?
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: Gary Ferguson on December 11, 2007, 10:36:51 am
If anything the evidence points to Hasselblad abandoning the V system. Okay, they stopped manufacturing the film based 200 system, I don't think anyone could read anything too sinister into that decision. But as well they've delisted the 903/905 38mm camera, the 555ELD, the Flexbody and the Arcbody, plus they're really cutting back on the accessory range, for example they don't even offer a basic grip anymore.  

It looks to me as if Hasselblad will keep the V series range ticking over as long as it's still making a tiny contributon to overheads (and I understand that by off-shoring most of the manufacturing they are now just in the black with the V series), but it receives absolutely no attention or investment, and I suspect that at the first hint of it slipping into the red it'll be shut down for good.

I use a V series with a digital back, and for architectural interiors it's perfectly serviceable, plus after thirty years using a V body it's just second nature. But I wouldn't recommend a younger photographer, who is investing in a new MF digital platform, to buy into the V system There's no TTL flash control, the trigger cabling is simply clumsy, you'll have to scavenge E-Bay for accessories, and its future looks distinctly rocky.

Sad, but that's progress.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on December 11, 2007, 10:48:52 am
A big factor here is the format difference. Hasselblad has a 6 by 6 square format. This format was popular in the film era for twin lens reflexes like the Rolleiflex that killed the dominant news camera: the Graflex. A camera with waist level finder was lighter and could be use for point and shoot from the hip while riding in the back of a Vespa paparazzi stile.

In more resent times Mamiya advanced the notion that a square format was wast full and inefficient --this doesn't mean that it had its iconic significance and large and important following-- because magazines and enlarging paper was not square so the 6 x 6 ended up most of the time as a 6 x 4.5 or close.

So they cover the two flanks of the Hasselblad format with the workhorse RB-RZ 67 and a 645 Pro.

Hasselblad must have realized that sensor size was estabilizing in the 6 x 4.5 and developed the H system with Fujifilm to be able to compete in the digital era. If they had continued with the 66 format the may be extinct by now --I think--.

There is one question that translates to digital times and is an interesting and good one.
a) Will we see MF sensor physically larger than the Delsa/Kodak of today,
b ) If this happens, how is the proportion of the real state gain going to be.

Creating a new larger size generation of sensors must be extremely expensive, so, will the chip makers go the square size way considering that this may not be the most efficient format since most applications are not square... will it just grow constraining proportions.

I would be surprised to see that a) and b ) produced a 6 x 6 format.

 

Quote
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Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: robert zimmerman on December 11, 2007, 10:58:25 am
i'm very happy that hasselblad has a closed system. i want a completely integrated system like the h3d II. everything works seamlessly, one battery in the grip that powers everything, complete control of everything with the parameter settings in the grip display or directly from the software.

thank goodness hassy has the resources, the knowhow and the balls to do it right and leave all the open system bull behind them. i've had enough slow motion, non communicating, work around solutions with backs, cameras, lenses, cables and etc. i'm done with it.

what is the advantage? so i can switch from leaf to phase on the same cam? have you taken a look at the trade in policies these companies offer for people with other backs? it's not the closed system that is standing in your way it the 10k loss you'll take by switching!
or is it the possibility of using two or three different backs on one camera? at 30k a pop i don't think i'll be going that route and doubling or tripling the problems i have with just one system to boot. and to what advantage? it's not like switching from porta to velvia with film. the differences in the files are very small

as far as the v series goes, you can use all the v series lenses via an adaptor on an h series camera and retain full communication, aperture priority, etc.
the v series body is basically a black box with a mirror in it, so you're not losing anything by using an h series body and you can still keep the v to shoot film with...

no thanks, i want usable iso 800 and soon 1600, wide angle lens correction, excellent af, constant improvement via firmware updates and even more integration of all the pieces that make a camera – not more headaches.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: joern_kiel on December 11, 2007, 11:11:03 am
Quote
HassleBlads is going backwards really FAST...
They thought they were being clever trying to close out the market for themselves.
I checked out a H3DII last week and I thought is was utterly Cr@p!
Plastic, overpriced, slow focusing JUNK. IMHO.
The software looked way over complicated also.
Snook
--------------------
www.homepage.mac.com/ekphotography/2006
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=159863\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Time will tell what is junk and what is not. A lot of folks making their living with that.

BTW, Apple is a closed system, too.
And they were "clever" enough to get YOU on board - oups.

Cheers
jørn


If you go in for argument, take care of your temper.
Your logic, if you have any, will take care of itself.
   Joseph Farrell
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: Dustbak on December 11, 2007, 11:27:37 am
A closed system doesn't make it a flaw-free system. There is a lot to say in favour of open systems that goes beyond just being able to swap backs.

Unfortunately Hasselblad did not go that way. I actually like the H system most of the time. Agreed the AF is total shit compared to the AF in my Nikon. I also was astonished the first time I gazed throught the viewfinder with the HC35. I got prove the world is round.

Besides that the H works and has pretty good lenses too. Now if Hasselblad would just put a decent finish on the thing I think most people would stop complaining about the plasticness.

I hate the command dials which are placed in position where you can't reach them while working and you will turn them when holding the body in any other position. etc..

All in all, it has flaws but for the purpose I use it it is delivering.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: robert zimmerman on December 11, 2007, 12:07:19 pm
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A closed system doesn't make it a flaw-free system.

an open system doesn't make it a flawless system either.

Quote
There is a lot to say in favour of open systems that goes beyond just being able to swap backs.

uch as? no cynicism here, just want to know what an open system gives me other than the ability to switch backs.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: mcfoto on December 11, 2007, 02:13:44 pm
Hi
Here is an article from LL dated March 1996. I find it interesting what was said about the H2. About the V series as long as there are sales it will still be made which is business.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/h...interview.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/hasselblad-interview.shtml)
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: Dustbak on December 11, 2007, 02:13:52 pm
3rd party development ability for one thing. There are other parties highly specialized in parts where for instance Hasselblad (or any other party that uses a closed system) is weaker.

Examples: Raw Developer, ACR, DxO, which is all software but you can imagine the same sort of development for hardware parties as well. It makes for a broader and more complete system. I really cannot live anymore without my RRS L-Bracket for instance.

With closing a system you deny other parties to develop additional stuff to your system.

Another thing and let me make that very clear, I never stated an open system is flawless! Having said that, an open system allows third parties to point out weak points within a system so it can be improved. A closed system requires a party to be able to look very critical upon their own work which is not something most people are really good at.

Anyway, it is kind of futile discussing this. It has been discussed ad nauseum in so many threads already and currently it is just closed. All arguments for and against have been mentioned more than once over the last 2 years.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: samuel_js on December 11, 2007, 02:21:45 pm
I think an integrated system can be open too. The fact that I can connect the 28mm HC to my H2 but it's not recognized by the camera is the proof of a closed system. It has nothing to do with integration.
By the way, my combo H2/Phase is working flawless, so personally, I don't see the advantages of integration either.
The new phase camera will hopefully be this, integrated but an open system.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: photo570 on December 11, 2007, 02:33:54 pm
Quote
3rd party development ability for one thing. There are other parties highly specialized in parts where for instance Hasselblad (or any other party that uses a closed system) is weaker.

Examples: Raw Developer, ACR, DxO, which is all software but you can imagine the same sort of development for hardware parties as well. It makes for a broader and more complete system. I really cannot live anymore without my RRS L-Bracket for instance.

With closing a system you deny other parties to develop additional stuff to your system.

Another thing and let me make that very clear, I never stated an open system is flawless! Having said that, an open system allows third parties to point out weak points within a system so it can be improved. A closed system requires a party to be able to look very critical upon their own work which is not something most people are really good at.

Anyway, it is kind of futile discussing this. It has been discussed ad nauseum in so many threads already and currently it is just closed. All arguments for and against have been mentioned more than once over the last 2 years.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=159903\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You mention DXO, have you actually used the Flexcolor? The built in DAC is basically DXO, but you don't have to guess the focus distance if your camera doesn't record it.

I just don't get it, people seem to rave about DXO, which I have, and yet slag DAC as a "marketing gimmick". It makes a visible difference to image files. If I had a question for Hasselblad it would be "Why did you include a tick box for this? Who in their right mind would turn it off?"

Kind regards,
Jason Berge.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: PatrikR on December 11, 2007, 03:10:38 pm
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Plastic, overpriced, slow focusing JUNK. IMHO.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=159863\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Talk about plastic go see the Mamiya ZD 645 AFD or what ever its called. On that thing everything is plastic including lenses. On my H1s only viewfinder cover and grip are plastic but lenses are solid aluminum.

Maybe H-series focusing is not super fast but it works. And works really well. H system is really good damn shame it's closed but I have two bodies so it doesn't really matter.

By the way where does this "plastic" thing come from?
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: robert zimmerman on December 11, 2007, 03:15:00 pm
Quote
3rd party development ability for one thing. There are other parties highly specialized in parts where for instance Hasselblad (or any other party that uses a closed system) is weaker.

Examples: Raw Developer, ACR, DxO, which is all software but you can imagine the same sort of development for hardware parties as well. It makes for a broader and more complete system. I really cannot live anymore without my RRS L-Bracket for instance.

With closing a system you deny other parties to develop additional stuff to your system.

Another thing and let me make that very clear, I never stated an open system is flawless! Having said that, an open system allows third parties to point out weak points within a system so it can be improved. A closed system requires a party to be able to look very critical upon their own work which is not something most people are really good at.

Anyway, it is kind of futile discussing this. It has been discussed ad nauseum in so many threads already and currently it is just closed. All arguments for and against have been mentioned more than once over the last 2 years.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=159903\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hmmm, either we're talking about two different things or i just don't know what you're getting at. i'm talking about a closed system (h3d) that doesn't accept third party backs. that's all. not an isolated system that is completely seperated from all developement elsewhere.

anyone can make a bracket that fits an h3d. or a lens shade or bright screen, etc.. the h3d files can be saves as dng in flexcolor and run through acr or lightroom if that is what you want to use. so if this is what you're talking about then it's not a closed system.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: Dustbak on December 11, 2007, 03:18:23 pm
Quote
You mention DXO, have you actually used the Flexcolor? The built in DAC is basically DXO, but you don't have to guess the focus distance if your camera doesn't record it.

I just don't get it, people seem to rave about DXO, which I have, and yet slag DAC as a "marketing gimmick". It makes a visible difference to image files. If I had a question for Hasselblad it would be "Why did you include a tick box for this? Who in their right mind would turn it off?"

Kind regards,
Jason Berge.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=159910\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes Jason, I use Flexcolor and DAC. I used DxO here as an example amongst others. I am sure if we would start thinking for awhile we could come up with even more.

I did not slag DAC as a marketing gimmick now did I?

Personally I am more interested in ACR support for Hasselblad files. That is not here either. I would love to have DAC like correction on that as well.

I would also like direct support of 3FR files in RD.

@Kipling.
We are partly talking about different things. I love my CF back that I can use on more than one type of body. I would hate to see that line disappear soon. I dislike the fact I cannot use my Hasselblad back on the H3, mind you this is a back in the current line of Hasselblad. I guess you are also right there are more parts about open & closed.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: alexjones on December 11, 2007, 04:12:51 pm
"And the only digital support Hassel gives to the V series, is a 16Mp back, hardly enough for today's demands on MFDB level photography."


Jessica,

They make backs upto 39MP and a Multishot at that.  I have no idea where you get the 16 thing from.

The reason for no development in the V series seems to be lack of new sales of product and the move to a new platform.  I'm not sure I agree with the approach but there are real world business decisions that needed to be made.  Hasselblad was in real trouble and is now on a much healthier footing once again.

The CF 39 will fit, V series, H1, H2, virtualy anyother make of camera body, viewcamera, Digiflex, pinhole camera (no shutter even), and the list goes on.  Now that is the kind of veristility that the others are short on.  It is an incredible dependable camera and software combination for sure.  I use a 132c day after day and it serves well.  I look forward to the coming upgrade to a CF39.

As to the didicated nature of the H3, it's the direction that they think will best serve the customer and themselves.  Not sure I agree but that's the way that one is going, but it is only part of the line.  Dedicated bodies and backs make some sense for certain types of development on new lenses.  Holding on to the past was no longer an option in Christian's mind from what I have read.  He's a smart guy and saved the company as I understand it.  My hat is off to him and I him the best.

Alex Jones, Digital Tech Pittsburgh

http://alexrjones.com/alexrjones/digitaltech.html (http://alexrjones.com/alexrjones/digitaltech.html)
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: RobertJ on December 11, 2007, 04:49:14 pm
Quote
They make backs upto 39MP and a Multishot at that.  I have no idea where you get the 16 thing from.

She's just talking about the square format, which, unfortunately, happens to be on a smaller chip and limited to 16MP.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: alexjones on December 11, 2007, 05:29:59 pm
Quote
She's just talking about the square format, which, unfortunately, happens to be on a smaller chip and limited to 16MP.
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Go to a 39 back and crop if you want more than 16 from a square.  Very little is used as a square, so vertical and horizontal should be the main concern.  If you are croping from a square they you are really loosing ground.  My first back was a proback and it was square.  I like squares and would love to see a 49x49 chip, but I doubt it will ever come.  But who knows, a lot of what we call normal now was a pipe dream 5 years ago.

The rest of the post seemed to be troubled by a lack of versitility in some way.

Best Regards,

Alex
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: BJNY on December 11, 2007, 06:54:56 pm
Don't dismiss the "V" platform.  You'd be surprised how many discerning top editorial/advertising pros (in NYC) prefer the robust camera bodies, and how the Zeiss lenses render.  So what if there's extra cables to deal.

Some of the Zeiss lenses I've used are 20+ years old, but they're SO good it makes me wonder what all the fuss is about with "made for digital" lenses.

Disclaimer:  I can't and don't want to learn how to interpret MTF charts + graphs.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: alexjones on December 11, 2007, 06:57:49 pm
Quote
Don't dismiss the "V" platform.  You'd be surprised how many discerning top editorial/advertising pros (in NYC) prefer the robust camera bodies, and how the Zeiss lenses render.  So what if there's extra cables to deal.
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 Agreed.  One cable lens to back in the case of a non electronic body or one never built for the back is not so bad.  There was almost always a flash sync there anyway.  Carry spares and take good care of them.   Always a backup.

a
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: bcroslin on December 11, 2007, 07:23:25 pm
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Disclaimer:  I can't and don't want to learn how to interpret MTF charts + graphs.
How dare you?! That's heresy in these parts! You mean you actually shoot and make a living with your cameras?!

I love how this has devolved into the standard Hassy H series sucks thread. Don't you all have anything better to do?

It's a shame that Hassy doesn't mount some sort of competition to the overhyped Hy6. All the engineering exists between the H and V systems. Even though there doesn't appear to be a solution to shooting the V-system without kludgey cables I'm still kicking around the idea of trying it out.

I love the V-system and I always will. I can't say the same about the H series or my Mamiyas. I can't think of another camera that creates the same sort of desire for a large cross section of photographers as the Hassy V's.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: thsinar on December 11, 2007, 07:40:02 pm
Dear Bob,

With all due respect and without wishing to argue, but in which way is the Hy6 "overhyped"?

it is a camera like any other, launched like any other, announced like any other, creating discussions and debates like any other, like the H series or any other have been doing before. Did you call this "overhyped" then?

If your answer is: "everybody speaks about it, but nobody sees it". Then let me tell you that the Sinar Hy6 delivers actually and since more than a month, in small quantities, agreed, and first to fulfill the orders for demo units from our distributors, but it delivers. There are even and already some customers using it for real jobs.

So I disagree here: the Sinar Hy6 is not more (or not less) overhyped than any other camera or product in its launch phase.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Quote
It's a shame that Hassy doesn't mount some sort of competition to the overhyped Hy6.

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Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: bcroslin on December 11, 2007, 07:52:25 pm
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With all due respect and without wishing to argue, but in which way is the Hy6 "overhyped"?

Alright, maybe I'm being a little hard on the Hy6 but the cost of entry for the camera and lenses is ridiculous and IMO I see very little new about it. Given the fact it was announced nearly two years ago and yet as far as I know I couldn't get my hands on one if I was ready to buy today. Same goes for the 90 degree prism.  

I had a chance to play with the Leaf AFi at Photoplus and while it's a very cool new camera it (and Mamiya, Contax, Canon) will never replace the Hassy V system for me.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: samuel_js on December 11, 2007, 07:57:02 pm
Imagine a black-chromed H2? wouhhh  

Seriously, I think Hasselblad should update the V system . I love the 503CW, it will always remain as a classic camera, but one can't just deny that a 503CW with metering system, autofocus lenses (maybe H lenses) etc... could stop the hyp about the Hy6. Now it's obviously too late but Hasselblad is just allowing it. They have the best camera in history and they are just letting it die. Evolution or die someone said... Could you think of Mercedes stopping making new models?

The only thing I can think of is that they don't have the economics needed to further develop the camera.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: thsinar on December 11, 2007, 08:51:49 pm
Just a little bit, Bob!

"overhyped" just seemed a bit of an exaggeration, given the meaning of the word: "Greatly exaggerated publicity / deception and dishonest scheme".
No harm though.

Actually it was announced a little more than 1 year ago, during Photokina 2006, in October.

It has no means and intentions to replace the Hasselblad V. It is a completely other and new camera except for the format 6x6. Actually I owe myself a 500 CM Classic limited edition "50th Anniversary" from 1991, and I won't ever give it away either.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Alright, maybe I'm being a little hard on the Hy6 but the cost of entry for the camera and lenses is ridiculous and IMO I see very little new about it. Given the fact it was announced nearly two years ago and yet as far as I know I couldn't get my hands on one if I was ready to buy today. Same goes for the 90 degree prism. 

I had a chance to play with the Leaf AFi at Photoplus and while it's a very cool new camera it (and Mamiya, Contax, Canon) will never replace the Hassy V system for me.
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Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: thsinar on December 11, 2007, 08:54:28 pm
Samuel,

Sorry for jumping in, but same remarks as above for Bob's post: I cannot agree that there is a hype here. Please confer to the meaning of this word.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

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... could stop the hyp about the Hy6.
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Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: bcroslin on December 11, 2007, 09:12:35 pm
Thierry,

I think sometimes we forget there's more to photography and perceptions about photography than what goes on in this forum. When I say Hy6 hype I'm judging much of what I know from what I've read in this forum and on the LL site. I'm also seeing things through the lens of the US market so I have no clue what the rest of world thinks. Frankly, I don't have a clue period.

The Hy6 as a concept and product is VERY ambitious and I honestly hope it finds a very successful place in the market. The fact that F+H, Sinar, Leaf etc. are backing a medium format camera system in the current market place is kick ass.

Like I said, I was able to play with an AFi at Photoplus and it seemed to be a killer rig. I know the Hy6 isn't intended to replace the Hassy V but it will be interesting to see what Hasselblad's reaction to the Hy6 is if it has traction in the marketplace.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: thsinar on December 11, 2007, 09:27:41 pm
oh yes, Bob, in this case we agree!

You're right, I see it with my eyes and what happens worldwide: and there "we" are quite "silent", still, and don't make yet a big noise about it.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

I think sometimes we forget there's more to photography and perceptions about photography than what goes on in this forum. When I say Hy6 hype I'm judging much of what I know from what I've read in this forum and on the LL site.
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Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: eronald on December 11, 2007, 10:11:39 pm
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Thierry,
Like I said, I was able to play with an AFi at Photoplus and it seemed to be a killer rig. I know the Hy6 isn't intended to replace the Hassy V but it will be interesting to see what Hasselblad's reaction to the Hy6 is if it has traction in the marketplace.
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My perception is indeed that the Hy6 will indeed gather all the people who love the Hassy V-series ergonomics. Add the fact that Hy6 buyers have a chance at getting some decent german-look glass on there instead of those harsh Fuji lenses, and the Hy6 might well have an immediate audience.

Edmund
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: JessicaLuchesi on December 12, 2007, 07:04:48 am
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"And the only digital support Hassel gives to the V series, is a 16Mp back, hardly enough for today's demands on MFDB level photography."
Jessica,

They make backs upto 39MP and a Multishot at that.  I have no idea where you get the 16 thing from.
http://alexrjones.com/alexrjones/digitaltech.html (http://alexrjones.com/alexrjones/digitaltech.html)
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From Hasselblad's own website. A little while ago, they advertised, side by side, the H3DII with the 39Mp back, and something along the lines of "but we didn't forget about the V series" announcing a 16Mp back.

Thanks everyone for your input and personal ideas. Yes, I know it's a purelly market decision, and currently, the system I own is a Canon one, which is HIGHTLY proprietary, it's just not a debate you see when talking 35mm. But, my point was simply, since the V system is already an openly adopted one, why not put that to their own advantage? But they have their corporate strategy and only time will prove if it's the correct one. Corporate and business common sense isn't the common men's common sense

Anyway, about square and 45/67, if it's just about resolution and cropping, cameras should go all the way to 67. I know a few Pentax users of 67 cameras who will just love it. I love the square format, mostly for my own personal work. But it yes, sucks, to compose taking cropping into consideration. Either way, I think. Either composing a square inside a rectangle, or composing a rectangle inside a square. I face that when shooting CD covers, and I ask whoever is assisting me, to poke me every 20 seconds, and warn me I have to shoot a square cover, because sometimes I get carried away, and compose to the full screen :| Call it lack of experience, I'll take it  

Still, what make the Hy6 so interesting, was the possibility of being able to still shoot film, in a square format ( for artwork purposes, please, not commercially ), or shoot digital with a 45 back. Instantly, came to mind that Hassel could update the V series into the same level the Hy6 is, with some effort, but without coming from scratch. Because, from anyone who used an "old" MF camera, the feeling of plastic is the most common complaint I hear from anyone using the H cameras. In a sense that, even with a Canon 5D, you don't get that plastic feeling as much as in the H system ( I guess this is made more critical, from the fact anyone will compare with the V system, which is a sturdy metal camera traditional camera , making it feel too much plastic, even if it's not more plastic than most cameras today anyway).

Anyway, I'm still a few years from that kind of investment, but it was very fruitful to see this debate, thank you everyone for all ideas, input and impressions  I always learn something on these discussions ( as long as pixel peeping can be left out for a while...  )  
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: samuel_js on December 12, 2007, 08:17:41 am
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In a sense that, even with a Canon 5D, you don't get that plastic feeling as much as in the H system ( I guess this is made more critical, from the fact anyone will compare with the V system, which is a sturdy metal camera traditional camera , making it feel too much plastic, even if it's not more plastic than most cameras today anyway).

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I really don't understand that plastic feeling everybody talks about. The Mamiya 645 feels plastic (no mention the lenses), the H series feel like.. different, not like the V series, but not plastic, I'd say impersonal or computerized maybe. Anyway, touching the lenses should fix that "feeling problem"   . I haven't seen a more serious lenses than the HC series.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: H1/A75 Guy on December 12, 2007, 10:15:41 am
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the feeling of plastic is the most common complaint I hear from anyone using the H cameras. In a sense that, even with a Canon 5D, you don't get that plastic feeling as much as in the H system
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Is it just me, or do statements like these make you appear like a complete idiot?
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: robert zimmerman on December 12, 2007, 10:43:21 am
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Is it just me, or do statements like these make you appear like a complete idiot?
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No, it's not just you. That post (JessicaLuchesi,Dec 12 2007, 01:04 PM) is brimming with idiocy.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: H1/A75 Guy on December 12, 2007, 10:54:30 am
Thank you. Maybe Jessica's fingers are getting over-sensitized to plastic. God only knows what Snook's excuse is. With any luck this thread is dead.

David
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: Dustbak on December 12, 2007, 11:15:59 am
The HC lenses really do take away the plastic feeling you might get from the body, they rival my ZF lenses in feel of build quality. Somehow I believe many people are just repeating others without ever having used a H.

Grr...... today I got into some real issues with the CF & H. Stuff you don't read about on most forums
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: mtomalty on December 12, 2007, 12:14:15 pm
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Grr...... today I got into some real issues with the CF & H. Stuff you don't read about on most forums


Can we read about it on tis forum?    :>))

Mark
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: JessicaLuchesi on December 12, 2007, 01:06:49 pm
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No, it's not just you. That post (JessicaLuchesi,Dec 12 2007, 01:04 PM) is brimming with idiocy.
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Take away the comment I made on the same line, right after ( that people most probrably say that from comparing the H camera to the V system directly and alone, forgetting about other cameras on the market, to the point to hear from a photographer who owns a 35mm and used a H2 say the MF feels more plastic than the 35mm ), and yes, it makes me look like I'm an idiot. Which I'm not, but yes, my only experience with MF is with rental bodies, and from hearing from friends who used the H system and disliked it for that reason.

But if it's not proper, to ask, to debate and to kill doubts or bad impressions I have, I agree that there is no reason for threads like this, or forums like this, to even exist.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: samuel_js on December 12, 2007, 03:34:40 pm
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Take away the comment I made on the same line, right after ( that people most probrably say that from comparing the H camera to the V system directly and alone, forgetting about other cameras on the market, to the point to hear from a photographer who owns a 35mm and used a H2 say the MF feels more plastic than the 35mm ), and yes, it makes me look like I'm an idiot. Which I'm not, but yes, my only experience with MF is with rental bodies, and from hearing from friends who used the H system and disliked it for that reason.

But if it's not proper, to ask, to debate and to kill doubts or bad impressions I have, I agree that there is no reason for threads like this, or forums like this, to even exist.
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Jessica, the thing is that you said the H series feel plastic like if it was an universal truth. Believe me, it isn't. I think L glass looks like a toy beside H lenses, as the 5D looks like a small boy that want to grow up beside an H2. But that's my feeling about the camera. I have had both in my hands, I know how it feels. You should take a side or make decisions after your experience, not after what you hear or read.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: Dustbak on December 12, 2007, 03:42:05 pm
Sure,

The following is how things can go wrong. Today I was meeting with one of the publishers I work for. The meeting was about last year, how it went, what went well, what went wrong, what can be improved etc..

I also needed to do a portrait of the 'chief publisher' in between because in the colofon everyone was done in 1 style and his picture was different.

Since I have had not one problem whatsoever during the whole year I decided to travel light and just take the H2, CF39 and the 80 with me, together with a mono, reflector and some stands. No backup body, I would normally take either the digiflexII but most of the time the D200. Wishing it never comes out of the bag and sofar it did not. Last week I also just sold the D200 in anticipation of the D300 which will arrive early next week (it should have arrived early this week).

The morning I realized I still had the 384 on the H body so I detached the Ixpress adapter and put it on the CF39.

When I arrived at the publisher, we decided to do the portrait first and then do the evaluation. Everything was setup and I turned on the H and my back booted but gave me a message in the line of , 'need to update the adapter SW, please hookup to external power'. Now I took the CF39 in the first place to not have to bring my laptop, not bring the imagebank or firewire cables. So I could not update the adapter software. Fortunately my publisher also publishes several photography magazines so we were lucky an editor was in the process of doing a D300 review.

Now, the whole year nothing went wrong so I have some slack but it is not over yet...

When I went home I picked up some sets of clothing from another client that needed to be done and on my FTP before tomorrow noon. When I came home, I thought, well lets hookup the CF39 to Flexcolor and have the Ixpress Adapter software updated. Unfortunately this went terribly wrong and I had a body that was acting like a brick. I had to downgrade to 4.7.1, install the combined firmware again, upgrade to 4.8.3 which went wrong again. Downgrade to 4.7.1, install the combined firmware, upgrade to 4.7.3, upgrade to 4.8.3 which went wrong again, downgrade to 4.7.1, install the combined firmware and by that point when I was about 2 hours further down the road I decided to leave it at 4.7.1.

I just finished and have decided not to be cheap and give each back its own Ixpress adapters. Today I learned you should not mix those unless you are prepared to undergo some hardship.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: robert zimmerman on December 12, 2007, 04:31:45 pm
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Sure,

The following is how things can go wrong. Today I was meeting with one of the publishers I work for. The meeting was about last year, how it went, what went well, what went wrong, what can be improved etc..

I also needed to do a portrait of the 'chief publisher' in between because in the colofon everyone was done in 1 style and his picture was different.

Since I have had not one problem whatsoever during the whole year I decided to travel light and just take the H2, CF39 and the 80 with me, together with a mono, reflector and some stands. No backup body, I would normally take either the digiflexII but most of the time the D200. Wishing it never comes out of the bag and sofar it did not. Last week I also just sold the D200 in anticipation of the D300 which will arrive early next week (it should have arrived early this week).

The morning I realized I still had the 384 on the H body so I detached the Ixpress adapter and put it on the CF39.

When I arrived at the publisher, we decided to do the portrait first and then do the evaluation. Everything was setup and I turned on the H and my back booted but gave me a message in the line of , 'need to update the adapter SW, please hookup to external power'. Now I took the CF39 in the first place to not have to bring my laptop, not bring the imagebank or firewire cables. So I could not update the adapter software. Fortunately my publisher also publishes several photography magazines so we were lucky an editor was in the process of doing a D300 review.

Now, the whole year nothing went wrong so I have some slack but it is not over yet...

When I went home I picked up some sets of clothing from another client that needed to be done and on my FTP before tomorrow noon. When I came home, I thought, well lets hookup the CF39 to Flexcolor and have the Ixpress Adapter software updated. Unfortunately this went terribly wrong and I had a body that was acting like a brick. I had to downgrade to 4.7.1, install the combined firmware again, upgrade to 4.8.3 which went wrong again. Downgrade to 4.7.1, install the combined firmware, upgrade to 4.7.3, upgrade to 4.8.3 which went wrong again, downgrade to 4.7.1, install the combined firmware and by that point when I was about 2 hours further down the road I decided to leave it at 4.7.1.

I just finished and have decided not to be cheap and give each back its own Ixpress adapters. Today I learned you should not mix those unless you are prepared to undergo some hardship.
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with an integrated, closed system this would never have hapened : D just kidding!
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: Dustbak on December 12, 2007, 04:40:33 pm
You are right it would not but in this case I consider it user stupidity and ignorance. Fact remains you have to constantly think about what you are doing, an open system likes this adds to the stuff you have to think about.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: samuel_js on December 12, 2007, 05:30:22 pm
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with an integrated, closed system this would never have hapened : D just kidding!
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You should be using Phase One! just kidding too.    
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: H1/A75 Guy on December 12, 2007, 11:05:19 pm
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But if it's not proper, to ask, to debate and to kill doubts or bad impressions I have, I agree that there is no reason for threads like this, or forums like this, to even exist.
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Patronizing aside, I apologize for snapping at you. I have made mistakes on this forum criticizing manufacturer's of both equipment I own and equipment with which I have no experience, even when I do not have a clue what I'm talking about. There is nothing wrong with the premise of your thread. I appreciate and value that you are one of the few (2) women who speak on this forum and I look forward to hearing what you have to say.

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HassleBlads is going backwards really FAST...
I checked out a H3DII last week and I thought is was utterly Cr@p!
Plastic, overpriced, slow focusing JUNK.
Snook
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I have less tolerance for posts like the above coming from a guy who has repeatedly asked for help on this forum and received it from many people, some of whom own H systems. He then turns around and thoughtlessly slams their cameras. The approach I'm trying to take is to critique what I do have in a constructive manner and respect what I don't have.
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: patrickfransdesmet on December 13, 2007, 03:22:35 am
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A big factor here is the format difference. Hasselblad has a 6 by 6 square format. This format was popular in the film era for twin lens reflexes like the Rolleiflex that killed the dominant news camera: the Graflex. A camera with waist level finder was lighter and could be use for point and shoot from the hip while riding in the back of a Vespa paparazzi stile.

In more resent times Mamiya advanced the notion that a square format was wast full and inefficient --this doesn't mean that it had its iconic significance and large and important following-- because magazines and enlarging paper was not square so the 6 x 6 ended up most of the time as a 6 x 4.5 or close.

So they cover the two flanks of the Hasselblad format with the workhorse RB-RZ 67 and a 645 Pro.

Hasselblad must have realized that sensor size was estabilizing in the 6 x 4.5 and developed the H system with Fujifilm to be able to compete in the digital era. If they had continued with the 66 format the may be extinct by now --I think--.

There is one question that translates to digital times and is an interesting and good one.
a) Will we see MF sensor physically larger than the Delsa/Kodak of today,
b ) If this happens, how is the proportion of the real state gain going to be.

Creating a new larger size generation of sensors must be extremely expensive, so, will the chip makers go the square size way considering that this may not be the most efficient format since most applications are not square... will it just grow constraining proportions.

I would be surprised to see that a) and b ) produced a 6 x 6 format.
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Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: patrickfransdesmet on December 13, 2007, 03:27:29 am
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Reading the article, and several posts on the Sinar Hy6 system, one thing came to mind... Hasselblad has the incredible V system, a very successful design, one that I love, a full 6x6 body. While Sinar, Leaf and Mamyia are gaining on developing open platform solutions, Hassel is sticking to a closed down H3D system. And the only digital support Hassel gives to the V series, is a 16Mp back, hardly enough for today's demands on MFDB level photography.

Why doesn't Hasselblad create a new V series body, updated with everything the H3 series has to offer, leaving all great things from the legacy V systems, as an open system, viable competitor to Sinar and Mamyia? And not locking it for digital use only, leaving it still compatible with the A12 film back.

I know it's not something easy to do, but I wonder why no longer any development go on the V series, since it's really SO successful, even Hassel had to acknowledge it with the new 16Mp back, and for a while, it's been one of the systems of choice for using PhaseOne backs. It's not just gonna die away, so why not simply recognize it, and do a full update?

PS: And yes, if I had that kind of resource to invest in a MFDB now, I would request a Hy6 test before thinking on the H3D. As I'm on rental, it's the 501CM with a Phase One back for me.
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Do you know, DALSA already have a 5 x 5 chip ! very close to 6 x 6 no?
Give it the MOORE's Law famous series of 18 months and within a few years, it is payable for us.
They even have an full sized 110 Mpixels chip, to large for MF, but suited for LF ! probably the next frontier.
I also expect to see the BAYER trick disappear and to introduce 3 CCD chips as in PRO video camera's.
On the other hand, there's notyhing wrong with film, and a lot of photographers I know, went back to film for certain applications such as Fine art and Repro
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: Streetshooter on December 13, 2007, 01:28:52 pm
"No, it's not just you. That post (JessicaLuchesi,Dec 12 2007, 01:04 PM) is brimming with idiocy."

"Is it just me, or do statements like these make you appear like a complete idiot? "


You know you two guys belong to D.P. Review instead of this forum. Why the need for the offensive remarks ?  You should be ashamed of yourselves. Everybody's entitled to an opinion.

Pete
Title: Death of the Hasselblad V series?
Post by: Graham Mitchell on December 13, 2007, 06:25:55 pm
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I also expect to see the BAYER trick disappear and to introduce 3 CCD chips as in PRO video camera's.
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That will never happen. It's not a big deal with the tiny CCDs used in video, but for a 6x6 chip? No way. Who wants a digital back the size of a lunch box, with weight of 5kg?