Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Adobe Lightroom Q&A => Topic started by: BruceHouston on December 07, 2007, 06:42:52 pm
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I am a newby with what I sense is probably a very dumb question.
I have PS CS3 with ACR 4.3 and am evaluating LR 1.3. I also just bought Jeff Schewe's book, "Camera Raw with Adobe PS CS3." I intend to purchase a license to LR.
The question is whether to invest my time learning raw conversion in ACR or in LR. Or are they operationally the same? (If they are operationally the same, I suppose that Jeff's book applies equally as well to either.) If they are not operationally the same or similar, which is best and why? If they are operationally the same or similar, which should I use on a regular basis and why? The way that my .CR2 files are currently associated, double-clicking on a raw file causes ACR and PS to execute.
Many thanks,
Bruce
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The question is whether to invest my time learning raw conversion in ACR or in LR. Or are they operationally the same?
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Camera Raw and Lightroom have the exact same controls that do the exact same adjustments so it's a toss up as to whether you concentrate on one or the other as it relates to raw image control. That said, there are UI and usability differences; not TAT tool in Camera Raw and no point curves editor in Lightroom. But, as it stands, if you know how to control images in LR, you can accomplish the same in Camera Raw...
Now, the _REST_ of Lightroom and Bridge CS3 and Photoshop CS3 is a different story...lots of differences there.
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LR Raw conversion is based on ACR, so they are essentially the same. My advice to any newby is to keep it simple. Learn first the basics, in your case ACR, and then move on to the next step. Stay with one or two programs (e.g,, ACR and CS3) and learn them well, rather then chasing a never-ending stream of new this and new that. Unless you already have thousands and thousands of digital photographs. and continue adding them every month in the range of thousands, my guess is you will hardly miss additional features of LR.
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Thank you both; very helpful.
And, since you mention it, Jeff, and in the same vein, is it fair to say that Lightroom is an effective replacement for Bridge for photographers as LR and Bridge relate to Photoshop? That is, if I do not use other Creative Suite applications aside from Photoshop, can I forget about Bridge and not miss any functionality if I use Lightroom?
Thanks again.
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And, since you mention it, Jeff, and in the same vein, is it fair to say that Lightroom is an effective replacement for Bridge for photographers as LR and Bridge relate to Photoshop?
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Depends on your workflow needs...
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A few points..
1) If you need the organizational flexibility and retrieval functions of a photo database, Lightroom is the clear choice.
2) The Lightroom user interface is as good as it gets. Excellent. Far better than the UI in ACR. The design team clearly made the UI a priority. The PhaseOne - Capture One RAW converter does a great job converting RAW files if you can figure out how to use it. Cult software (which means there’s a certain amount of suffering involved if you want to stick with it).
3) If running Windows XP screen in high resolution (1600x1200) with Large Font selected to compensate, you can not read some of the dialog boxes in ACR (example: New Preset) and some of the same type boxes in Photoshop. The layout of the window and fonts do not scale to adjust. Poor design. No such problem in Lightroom.
p
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Bruce,
I decided to have Lightroom as my main application for photo management and editing. I seldom do a "CS3 roundtrip" because I want to keep it simple for the moment. If you think Lightroom is the way to go, I'd recommend:
- Get Michael's and Jeff's "Lightroom Tutorial". (see LL main page)
- Get the "Lightroom Adventure" Book. (http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596100995/)
That's the way I got really fast into using this application with fun and real world examples.
I might buy Jeff's Camera Raw book, but I never used Camera Raw so far. Sounds like an interesting read though.
Cheers,
rdp
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I still have a couple of interface problems with LR: I find the interface slightly flakier than ACR, with odd increments in the sliders; and I find the lack of a simple 'Cancel' button so you can dismiss any changes made, really irritating.
Having said that, I find it helpful to rethink images in LR after making changes in ACR. In a year or two's time, LR will probably be mature enough, but for now, I'm sticking with ACR.
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I still have a couple of interface problems with LR: I find the interface slightly flakier than ACR, with odd increments in the sliders; and I find the lack of a simple 'Cancel' button so you can dismiss any changes made, really irritating.
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Have you tried CMD/CTRL Z?
Just as with any program it undoes the last thing done. You also have a permanent history palette which allows you to step backward to any previous step at any time.
I'm not sure I understand your complaint.
Michael
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Have you tried CMD/CTRL Z?
Just as with any program it undoes the last thing done. You also have a permanent history palette which allows you to step backward to any previous step at any time.
I'm not sure I understand your complaint.
Michael
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I find the history palette one of the big pluses for using LR as opposed to ACR--having both but using them in tandem now.
Diane
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Different strokes...
I use both LR and ACR. My preferred application is to use ACR and CS3 for most of my work. Then again, I rarely have the need to process a lot of files at once. In those cases, I turn to LR.
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Ctrl-Z and the History palette work of course - they just seem over fiddly compared to a simple 'As You Were' button.
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Ctrl-Z and the History palette work of course - they just seem over fiddly compared to a simple 'As You Were' button.
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But that will allow you only to go back one step. Many times I find myself wanting to go back more than that--but not reset. I'm not sure why you find an 'as you were button' easier than just clicking one step back in history??--or Ctrl-Z--you hold them down together--as one button--don't you??
The LR folks gave us both options as I see it---go back one step easily--Ctrl-Z--or back more--with history. No fiddlin' to it that I can see--if I had to go through another menu, use 2 key strokes, etc.--that would be fiddly IMO. I guess people look at these things differently. I find LR so much nicer to use than ACR because of the history palette--I find ACR a royal pain for lots of 'user' issues.
Diane
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But that will allow you only to go back one step. Many times I find myself wanting to go back more than that--but not reset. I'm not sure why you find an 'as you were button' easier than just clicking one step back in history??--or Ctrl-Z--you hold them down together--as one button--don't you??
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Camera Raw and Lightroom both have multiple Undo...control Z (Win) and command z (Mac) only toggle between the current and former state but control/Alt z (Win) and command/option Z (Mac) provide essentially, unlimited Undo. control/shift Z (Win) and command/shift z Mac) allow for redo.
The only functional difference between LR and CR is the fact that LR allows a graphic display of the history with the ability to maintain history between sessions. In Camera Raw the history is only persistent in the current launch of CR and is lost when you open or hit done.
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I currently use CS3/ACR but am a little intrigued regarding Lightroom. Is it o.k to install both LR & CS3 on the same PC so I can compare them ?
thanks
simon
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Is it o.k to install both LR & CS3 on the same PC so I can compare them ?
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Yep...other than the fact you may fall in love with one or the other and get frustrated that they are different in usability (the end rendered results are the same)...
:~)
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Camera Raw and Lightroom both have multiple Undo...control Z (Win) and command z (Mac) only toggle between the current and former state but control/Alt z (Win) and command/option Z (Mac) provide essentially, unlimited Undo. control/shift Z (Win) and command/shift z Mac) allow for redo.
The only functional difference between LR and CR is the fact that LR allows a graphic display of the history with the ability to maintain history between sessions. In Camera Raw the history is only persistent in the current launch of CR and is lost when you open or hit done.
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Well, thank you for that Jeff. I didn't realize that--seemed possible, but I guess I didn't know the key strokes. I'm guessing you mention this in your new Camera RAW book. The only thing I don't like about that is that its helpful to see just where you are in the history.
Diane
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Yep...other than the fact you may fall in love with one or the other and get frustrated that they are different in usability (the end rendered results are the same)...
:~)
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I don't even have problems working with them both open. Since I do a number of round trips, I just end up having PS open all the time I'm working in LR. (I'm more in 'love' with LR to the point of RAW conversion--then its PS through print--but hoping that will change).
Diane
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Thanks all for your suggestions. Guybat and picnic, the "RESET" button in the lower right appears to reset all sliders to the positions automatically selected by Lightroom upon importing an image.
Bruce
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The History tab does do what I wanted, though I'd prefer the Reset tab to be a Cancel tab - it would seem to make more sense.
A lot of it is simply my being more familiar to the workflow in ACR/PS than LR/PS. I keep having a serious go at each iteration of LR, and though I usually return to ACR, LR does gets better and better.
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Schewe: 'Camera Raw and Lightroom both have multiple Undo...control Z (Win) and command z (Mac) only toggle between the current and former state but control/Alt z (Win) and command/option Z (Mac) provide essentially, unlimited Undo. control/shift Z (Win) and command/shift z Mac) allow for redo.'
Best tip of the week. Thanks for that.
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Thanks all for your suggestions. Guybat and picnic, the "RESET" button in the lower right appears to reset all sliders to the positions automatically selected by Lightroom upon importing an image.
Bruce
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Yes, but rarely do I want to reset--that's why knowing that a keystroke will take one back in history in ACR--same in LR though I prefer using the history palette to know exactly where I was. I use both--but more often LR since I upload, edit there to begin with.
Another option you might like in LR is the 'before/after' in the develop module--shown by the Y/Y at the bottom.
Diane
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Please allow me to use that thread to ask two questions re/ Lightroom:
1. Do I have another attempt at the trial version of LR after the recent update ? (Background: I have used the trial with LR 1.0 and found it way too slow on my 2.8Gh Pentium with 2 GB RAM, XP Pro for use with my Canon 5D raw files - but the recent update was supposed to fix these issues, so I would like to try again before I spend the money).
2. If I use LR (latest version) I get the control of ACR 4.x, but because I only have PS CS2 and dont intend to upgrade to CS3, what controls can I use to open the images in CS2 ? My guess is that to utilize the ACR 4.x function I would have to open the file in LR and save a converted .tif/.psd file, which then in turned could be openend by CS 2... but that would be a detour that I'd love to avoid. Any chance to install the ACR 4.3 module for use in CS2 ?
Thanks for enlighting me, even a short answer will be appreciated :-)
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http://www.cathaycameraclub.com (http://www.cathaycameraclub.com)
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Please allow me to use that thread to ask two questions re/ Lightroom:
1. Do I have another attempt at the trial version of LR after the recent update ? (Background: I have used the trial with LR 1.0 and found it way too slow on my 2.8Gh Pentium with 2 GB RAM, XP Pro for use with my Canon 5D raw files - but the recent update was supposed to fix these issues, so I would like to try again before I spend the money).
2. If I use LR (latest version) I get the control of ACR 4.x, but because I only have PS CS2 and dont intend to upgrade to CS3, what controls can I use to open the images in CS2 ? My guess is that to utilize the ACR 4.x function I would have to open the file in LR and save a converted .tif/.psd file, which then in turned could be openend by CS 2... but that would be a detour that I'd love to avoid. Any chance to install the ACR 4.3 module for use in CS2 ?
Thanks for enlighting me, even a short answer will be appreciated :-)
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http://www.cathaycameraclub.com (http://www.cathaycameraclub.com)
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That's the way it works regardless--except that you don't actually have to 'save' a file---LR does this for you--and you can use CS2 as your editing app as easily as CS3. You right click over the file you want to open in PS and choose 'edit in Photoshop.exe' where you have chosen PSCS2 as your external editor in preferences OR use ctrl-alt-E. The file will be saved as a tiff or psd (you have the option to choose in your dialog box as well as other options like color space, bit depth), PSCS2 will open and the file be opened there automatically. When you are done processing in CS2---you simply use 'save as' and the processed file will be saved (overriding the tiff/psd LR already set up) with layers, etc. You can choose to have it 'stacked' with the original RAW.
Ah, forgot to answer your other question. No, you can't install ACR 4.3.1 in PSCS2 but you can use the dng converter from RAW and open the dng in PSCS2.
Diane