Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: bigbrotherbob33 on November 28, 2007, 05:17:59 pm
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Has anyone tried the Hahnemuhle bamboo paper yet? I like the price point on it so far. I wonder what the archival numbers on it are like.
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Has anyone tried the Hahnemuhle bamboo paper yet? I like the price point on it so far.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156763\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Got it right here. Looks and prints like any high quality, natural white, smooth rag paper. It's great price point and environmental benefits are strong points.
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I have been using it regularly since some samples I had on prototype media. I recently printed a series on production Bamboo and it is simply wonderful.
I talked with Hahnemuhle yesterday, and they asked if the fact that having a less bright and less whitened (optical brightener ) was a problem. I answered with what all serious photographers should, no as indeed it is the optical brightener that will degrade the media quicker than the pigment inks over a shorter period of time.
The surface is smoother than Phototrag, and the weight and feel different.
It gives a better contrast range, and has a slightly smoother transition into light colours. The gamut is also slightly better in most areas over PhotoRag (both custom profiles on the Z). The sharpness is at a whole new level, probably due to the smoother surface.
I still have a few rolls of PhotoRag, but if I am to buy matte it will be Bamboo in the future.
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Got it right here. Looks and prints like any high quality, natural white, smooth rag paper. It's great price point and environmental benefits are strong points.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=156764\")
It must be a nice paper. But in my opinion the environmental benefits of this paper do not reach further than the extra euros per sheet that go to HM's own ecological inititiative, Green Rooster (Rooster = Hahn) with the proposed project in Africa that isn't related to the bamboo pulp as far as I can see. There's no inherent relation between bamboo and environmental safety in general. No words on HM's site where the bamboo pulp has its origin. I do not claim that HM isn't a responsible company on environmental aspects but so far I see this more as an PR project. I love to see some evidence that bamboo pulp will make this world a better place but so far I have little indication it does. There's a lot more cotton than bamboo going through HM's mill by the way, opinions differ on what is a safer paper, from certified wood forests or from cotton fields.
Ernst Dinkla
try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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The paper sounds good and I'm certainly going to try it. I'm hoping the paper is smoother than PhotoRag, without the mechanical egg-shell look and the blotting paper feel and strength.
On the environment side of things , most Hahnemuhle papers are made from wood.
Just where the bamboo, cotton and paper come from , how much water and pesticides are used to grow the fibre and how many people and animals have been displaced has not yet been revealed. As far as I know no paper manufacturer is saying very much.
I suspect some time in the not too distant future, everything will come with an environmental audit.
For the moment it's anyone's guess.
Cheers
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
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The paper sounds good and I'm certainly going to try it. I'm hoping the paper is smoother than PhotoRag, without the mechanical egg-shell look and the blotting paper feel and strength.
On the environment side of things , most Hahnemuhle papers are made from wood.
Just where the bamboo, cotton and paper come from , how much water and pesticides are used to grow the fibre and how many people and animals have been displaced has not yet been revealed. As far as I know no paper manufacturer is saying very much.
I suspect some time in the not too distant future, everything will come with an environmental audit.
For the moment it's anyone's guess.
Cheers
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156906\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No idea on what it takes to make commercial paper.
But the surface is not eggshell like Photo rag.
Be aware that the surface coating has a different colour than the backing. Otherwise it is very nice with no manufacturing defects as far as I could see.
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No idea on what it takes to make commercial paper.
But the surface is not eggshell like Photo rag.
Be aware that the surface coating has a different colour than the backing. Otherwise it is very nice with no manufacturing defects as far as I could see.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156922\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
On Epson printers, does it take photo black or matte black? I could not find the specs on this paper, but assume that it will have a whiteness closer to 90% than 100%. Does it have a warm tone?
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Bamboo 290 data sheet. (http://www.hahnemuehle.com/media/downloads/23/dfa-bamboo290-rev00.pdf)
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Bamboo 290 data sheet. (http://www.hahnemuehle.com/media/downloads/23/dfa-bamboo290-rev00.pdf)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156989\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks, I should have looked at the Hahnemuhle site. But what about photo black vs. matte black? Is this is a matte paper?
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Thanks, I should have looked at the Hahnemuhle site. But what about photo black vs. matte black? Is this is a matte paper?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156994\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Neil said it was a very smooth matte paper so I would expect it to use matte black inks although on a Z3100 it probably uses both blacks.
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Neil said it was a very smooth matte paper so I would expect it to use matte black inks although on a Z3100 it probably uses both blacks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156997\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, you are right. On the Colorbyte website, the only one where I could find up to date profiles, the profiles for Bamboo are for matte black. However, on a parallel thread (on Baryta paper) there was a post and exchange about the fact that prints on Bamboo look very good with photo black as well. Maybe the way of the future for us who use Epson printers with ink-wasting MK/PK exchange.
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Neil said it was a very smooth matte paper so I would expect it to use matte black inks although on a Z3100 it probably uses both blacks.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=156997\")
What I'm told is that it is glossier (and warmer) than the Sihl Barite that I have and I print the last with the Fiber media profile of the Z3100 driver which uses PK + greys and GE. Seems unlikely that it needs MK.
Neil, the two qualities are different in color tone and gloss. If you are replacing the HM Photorag with Bamboo then I think you should ask Sihl France for some proof sheets. It could still be a quality that is sold by another manufacturer too but it isn't Bamboo.
Ernst Dinkla
try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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What I'm told is that it is glossier (and warmer) than the Sihl Barite that I have and I print the last with the Fiber media profile of the Z3100 driver which uses PK + greys and GE. Seems unlikely that it needs MK.
Neil, the two qualities are different in color tone and gloss. If you are replacing the HM Photorag with Bamboo then I think you should ask Sihl France for some proof sheets. It could still be a quality that is sold by another manufacturer too but it isn't Bamboo.
Ernst Dinkla
try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=157027\")
Thanks, Ernst.
Hahnemuhle created an interesting [a href=\"http://www.hahnemuehle.com/media/downloads/62/Print_Instruction_HPZ3100-new_firmware.pdf]set of instructions[/url] for the Z3100 but unfortunately it doesn't yet include their new Baryta or Bamboo. I'm hoping they update this doc when the papers become offcially available.
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Thanks, Ernst.
Hahnemuhle created an interesting set of instructions (http://www.hahnemuehle.com/media/downloads/62/Print_Instruction_HPZ3100-new_firmware.pdf) for the Z3100 but unfortunately it doesn't yet include their new Baryta or Bamboo. I'm hoping they update this doc when the papers become offcially available.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157057\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Bamboo is definitely shipping. I don't know where they are with Baryta. I like the Bamboo a lot, the Baryta has too much eggshell like irregular texture for my liking.
I sent the Z3100 profile up onto the wiki if I remember right. I think I profiled it as >250 fine art matte on Firmware 5.04. I also have the same for the 9180.
Please note, the new Baryta papers just don't work with dye printers as far as I have seen. They are pigment only.
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I have been printing on bamboo and baryta for some weeks now:
-Bamboo is a warm and smooth matte (very matte) paper. I don't now where this idea came from that Bamboo is a gloss paper. It prints beautiful and has a bit better black then Photorag.
-Baryta is a high-gloss fiber paper. The base is probably similar as Fine Art Pearl but with a Baryta coating. The paper is very white (like FAP) and seems to work especially well with color images. Yesterday I printed a series of Art Reproductions on this paper and came out very amazing. The black is its strongest point.
-In the beginning of next year, Hahnemuhle will introduce another Baryta paper, based on PhotoRag (like PhotoRag Pearl). Probably named Photo Rag Baryta, which will be warmer then the Fine art Baryta version. I am looking forward for that one. Also the Photo Rag Pearl I like a lot, more then FAP. Especially for Black/White
Ps. Prints are done on the Epson 9800. Matte black for Bamboo. Photo Black for Baryta.
Jochem
What I'm told is that it is glossier (and warmer) than the Sihl Barite that I have and I print the last with the Fiber media profile of the Z3100 driver which uses PK + greys and GE. Seems unlikely that it needs MK.
Neil, the two qualities are different in color tone and gloss. If you are replacing the HM Photorag with Bamboo then I think you should ask Sihl France for some proof sheets. It could still be a quality that is sold by another manufacturer too but it isn't Bamboo.
Ernst Dinkla
try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157027\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Bamboo is definitely shipping. I don't know where they are with Baryta. I like the Bamboo a lot, the Baryta has too much eggshell like irregular texture for my liking.
I sent the Z3100 profile up onto the wiki if I remember right. I think I profiled it as >250 fine art matte on Firmware 5.04. I also have the same for the 9180.
Please note, the new Baryta papers just don't work with dye printers as far as I have seen. They are pigment only.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157059\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes, I remember, Neil. That's one reason I'm interested in the Bamboo. Your reports were very encouraging.
My usual suppliers are saying the Bamboo will be available early December.
I'm not as enthused about the Baryta now that you report you don't like the eggshell finish.
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My usual suppliers are saying the Bamboo will be available early December.
ggshell finish.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157087\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ron-
I ordered a roll of Hahnemuhle Bamboo to play with from Shades of Paper and it is now in route. I'm not sure who else has it, but their prices are in line with others, they have it, and I have heard good things about them from others (my first order with them).
FYI
-Ron H.
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Ron-
I ordered a roll of Hahnemuhle Bamboo to play with from Shades of Paper and it is now in route. I'm not sure who else has it, but their prices are in line with others, they have it, and I have heard good things about them from others (my first order with them).
FYI
-Ron H.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=157100\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks, Ron. I have ordered from them before. I got my Bienfang de-roller there.
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Hello,
To add to the inquiry... Has anyone found a source for profiles for Hahnemuhle Bamboo? The company has yet to place them on their site & I don't find them elsewhere. Particularly for the Canon iPF5000 or perhaps an Epson 2200?
thanks
gibz
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Hello,
To add to the inquiry... Has anyone found a source for profiles for Hahnemuhle Bamboo? The company has yet to place them on their site & I don't find them elsewhere. Particularly for the Canon iPF5000 or perhaps an Epson 2200?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=160558\")
Profile for Hahnemuhle Bamboo for iPF5000 at Booksmart Studio for nominal $4.00 charge (free if you buy paper from them, I believe):
[a href=\"http://www.booksmartstudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72_217_225&products_id=3925]http://www.booksmartstudio.com/store/index...roducts_id=3925[/url]
--John
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It must be a nice paper. But in my opinion the environmental benefits of this paper do not reach further than the extra euros per sheet that go to HM's own ecological inititiative, Green Rooster (Rooster = Hahn) with the proposed project in Africa that isn't related to the bamboo pulp as far as I can see. There's no inherent relation between bamboo and environmental safety in general. No words on HM's site where the bamboo pulp has its origin. I do not claim that HM isn't a responsible company on environmental aspects but so far I see this more as an PR project. I love to see some evidence that bamboo pulp will make this world a better place but so far I have little indication it does. There's a lot more cotton than bamboo going through HM's mill by the way, opinions differ on what is a safer paper, from certified wood forests or from cotton fields.
Ernst Dinkla
try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156898\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've worked in the graphic desing industry for 20 years and have had many papers made for print projects. I can tell you bamboo is much better than most virgin fibers. First, it's likely to be grown without any pesticides, etc. Usually isn't bleached and grows fast in smaller plots of land, more densely planted. (It is a grass) Has longer fibers than paper so it's stronger and more recyclable (can be recycled more times before fiber gets too short to use). Generally takes less energy to produce than wood or cotton without much waste in the process. (you can use most of the plant, the rest is mulch)
Cotton is usually high in pesticides/herbicides. Takes more energy to produce and is bleached to make it white. Also takes alot of land to grow.
Wood pulp takes more energy with more waste in the process, using bleach to whiten it and disrupts many natural habitats in the process. Making paper is probably the worst use of a tree in my opinion, as there are many better options out there.
Glad to see the fine art industry is getting smarter about resources. Bamboo, Kenaf (similar to bamboo, and hemp are all great sources of paper fiber and naturally whiter than wood.
OK, probably more than anyone wanted to know but couldn't help myself.
- Doug
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I've worked in the graphic desing industry for 20 years and have had many papers made for print projects. I can tell you bamboo is much better than most virgin fibers. First, it's likely to be grown without any pesticides, etc. Usually isn't bleached and grows fast in smaller plots of land, more densely planted. (It is a grass) Has longer fibers than paper so it's stronger and more recyclable (can be recycled more times before fiber gets too short to use). Generally takes less energy to produce than wood or cotton without much waste in the process. (you can use most of the plant, the rest is mulch)
Cotton is usually high in pesticides/herbicides. Takes more energy to produce and is bleached to make it white. Also takes alot of land to grow.
Wood pulp takes more energy with more waste in the process, using bleach to whiten it and disrupts many natural habitats in the process. Making paper is probably the worst use of a tree in my opinion, as there are many better options out there.
Glad to see the fine art industry is getting smarter about resources. Bamboo, Kenaf (similar to bamboo, and hemp are all great sources of paper fiber and naturally whiter than wood.
OK, probably more than anyone wanted to know but couldn't help myself.
- Doug
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=160580\")
Doug,
I read similar comments every time I mention my doubts but I never see a reference where bamboo is compared with numbers on aspects like you mention. Right now about 3% of paper pulp comes from bamboo sources. Any source of pulp is used as the demand in China etc for pulp increases dramatically. But that percentage stays. Bamboo isn't replacing another source and there is no news of bamboo plantations created for paper pulp production. There are some reports though about old bamboo forest plundered like there's more forest plundered in S.E. Asia. What I did read about the energy that goes into the pulp production of different pulp sources is that there's little difference.
True it grows fast, the variety of bamboo delivers all kinds of products and it looks fantastic. But you have to cut a lot of bamboo to get the equivalent in usable pulp that a production tree delivers. That's it. No further magic.
[a href=\"http://www.tappsa.co.za/archive2/APPW_2004/Title2004/The_refining_of_non-wood/the_refining_of_non-wood.html]http://www.tappsa.co.za/archive2/APPW_2004...f_non-wood.html[/url]
http://www.globalhemp.com/Archives/Magazin...t_friendly.html (http://www.globalhemp.com/Archives/Magazines/bamboo_paper_not_friendly.html)
There's more to read as I have done after the enthusiasts embraced Hahnemuhle's Bamboo. Just look what HM tells about its bamboo sources, certification of pulp source plantations, etc. Nada. I bet they can get better ecological documents on the table for their wood pulp (as required in the EU) than for the bamboo pulp. The main pulp source of HM is wood, then cotton (and that is bad), then bamboo. I guess it isn't 3% of their production. There will be other alpha fiber sources too I guess.
I like to be green in a realistic way.
Ernst Dinkla
try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
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Ernst, but the fact of the matter is that there is a change going on. Of course HM Bamboo is not green in a realistic way, this is still pure marketing. What is important though that this creates a shift of mind in the industry, the next one will follow. HM seems to have changed their marketing strategy (in the last 2 years) from "a traditional paper maker" to "an innovative paper maker" and I must say I think they made the right decision. And yes, maybe the coating of the paper is in the end made at Sihl, but who cares? Sihl is not promoting green papers, is it?! HM is taking the marketing expense, Sihl produces.
rgrds, Jochem
Ernst Dinkla,Dec 14 2007, 04:07 AM]
Doug,
I read similar comments every time I mention my doubts but I never see a reference where bamboo is compared with numbers on aspects like you mention. Right now about 3% of paper pulp comes from bamboo sources. Any source of pulp is used as the demand in China etc for pulp increases dramatically. But that percentage stays. Bamboo isn't replacing another source and there is no news of bamboo plantations created for paper pulp production. There are some reports though about old bamboo forest plundered like there's more forest plundered in S.E. Asia. What I did read about the energy that goes into the pulp production of different pulp sources is that there's little difference.
True it grows fast, the variety of bamboo delivers all kinds of products and it looks fantastic. But you have to cut a lot of bamboo to get the equivalent in usable pulp that a production tree delivers. That's it. No further magic.
http://www.tappsa.co.za/archive2/APPW_2004...f_non-wood.html (http://www.tappsa.co.za/archive2/APPW_2004/Title2004/The_refining_of_non-wood/the_refining_of_non-wood.html)
http://www.globalhemp.com/Archives/Magazin...t_friendly.html (http://www.globalhemp.com/Archives/Magazines/bamboo_paper_not_friendly.html)
There's more to read as I have done after the enthusiasts embraced Hahnemuhle's Bamboo. Just look what HM tells about its bamboo sources, certification of pulp source plantations, etc. Nada. I bet they can get better ecological documents on the table for their wood pulp (as required in the EU) than for the bamboo pulp. The main pulp source of HM is wood, then cotton (and that is bad), then bamboo. I guess it isn't 3% of their production. There will be other alpha fiber sources too I guess.
I like to be green in a realistic way.
Ernst Dinkla
try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=160594\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
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Ernst, but the fact of the matter is that there is a change going on. Of course HM Bamboo is not green in a realistic way, this is still pure marketing. What is important though that this creates a shift of mind in the industry, the next one will follow. HM seems to have changed their marketing strategy (in the last 2 years) from "a traditional paper maker" to "an innovative paper maker" and I must say I think they made the right decision. And yes, maybe the coating of the paper is in the end made at Sihl, but who cares? Sihl is not promoting green papers, is it?! HM is taking the marketing expense, Sihl produces.
rgrds, Jochem
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(http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=160594\")
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=160726\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
[/quote]
Right this Bamboo and much more bamboo products like the fabric are very PR green. Bamboo used locally for building etc is far more green, at least greener than alternatives. You can still use the Bamboo for printing it probably isn't worse than cotton but it has to be seen whether it is greener than pulp from production forests in Scandinavia where in very controlled plants the pulp is produced.
HM has been a very innovative, traditional paper making mill since they started to produce inkjet coated paper about 12 years ago for the Iris and soon after that for the piëzo drop on demand machines like the Epson. Lyson could have awakened them. Before that it was a very traditional somewhat sleepy art paper manufacturer, part of a company that was in specialty papers. The cheaper alternative to Arches. In competition with similar factories here like Fabriano, Lana, Van Gelder. Nothing exiting, a higher end price for a ton of pulp than an offset paper manufacturer would get. We ordered a semi Velin Arches 100% cotton from a Dutch mill at that time at half the price for silkscreen printing. It is much more difficult to do the same now and get a good inkjet coating on top. None of the other manufacturers like Arches, Lana has made that change to inkjet art papers as good as HM. This green image is just a new marketing guy or the wife of the director that has some time idle. Of course their customers, artists etc also are greener than Joe six pack. Hahnemuhle has no forests and buys pulp on the market like so many smaller mills do.
Ernst Dinkla
try: [a href=\"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/[/url]
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Thanks guys. I ended up getting some from Booksmart Studio (http://www.booksmartstudio.com/store/) earlier this month. I wish I waited because they are having a sale right now, %10 off everything. It is one of my primary papers now and I usually buy it in bulk, like 4 boxes at a time. I use it mostly on on giclees or art reproductions, just to get that 3rd dimension! hahaha
But seriously folks, for those other lovers of the Hahnemuhle Bamboo out there I have found if you buy a 13x19 size box called Anniversary Edition that come with a free leather box! and by the way John Hollenberg booksmart offers the profile free now! Thanks again guys!
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Hahnemuhle Bamboo out there I have found if you buy a 13x19 size box called Anniversary Edition that come with a free leather box!
Yes - this is a really good deal. You basically get a Pratt leather folio box for free. Hahnemuhle also offers PhotoRag Baryta and standard PhotoRag in these anniversary boxes. They also come with half a dozen or so of the Hahnemuhle certificates of authenticity and a spanking pair of white cotton gloves
Not sure how long these are going to be available as they are apparently limited to celebrate Hahnemuhle's anniversary. But its a great way to get a free leather folio!