Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: billy on November 18, 2007, 04:35:29 pm

Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: billy on November 18, 2007, 04:35:29 pm
hello, with the new talk of the mamiya/phase parnership, I am wondering if there is still a chance that I will be able to use the new Rollei version of Hy6 camera with Phase backs, any news? does it matter that phase is partnering with mamiya?
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 18, 2007, 05:03:40 pm
You need to ask Phase this question. There has been no official announcement, afaik.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: Cedric on November 21, 2007, 02:54:01 am
If I am not mistaken, the Hy6 system is a closed system that will only work with Leaf and Sinar DBs.

That was probably one reason more for PhaseOne and Mamiya to tighten the partnership,  although the PhaseOne/Mamiya system will be an open one.


Quote
hello, with the new talk of the mamiya/phase parnership, I am wondering if there is still a chance that I will be able to use the new Rollei version of Hy6 camera with Phase backs, any news? does it matter that phase is partnering with mamiya?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153943\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: amsp on November 21, 2007, 05:31:33 am
Looking at Phase's answer to the same question on their forum they seem to be hinting that you will be able to use Hy6 with phase backs one way or another, they don't give any details to functionality though.

http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=4449 (http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=4449)
http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=4172 (http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=4172)
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: bradleygibson on November 21, 2007, 11:01:36 am
Quote
Looking at Phase's answer to the same question on their forum they seem to be hinting that you will be able to use Hy6 with phase backs one way or another, they don't give any details to functionality though.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154641\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In my conversations with Phase, I have been led to a similar conclusion, but without specifics on functionality or a timeframe.

It would be nice to get a clear answer on this question, wouldn't it??    

-Brad
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: Henry Goh on November 21, 2007, 11:24:46 am
Quote
In my conversations with Phase, I have been led to a similar conclusion, but without specifics on functionality or a timeframe.

It would be nice to get a clear answer on this question, wouldn't it??   

-Brad
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154702\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If Phase wants to do it, they only need to buy a camera body and figure out the electronic contacts.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: samuel_js on November 21, 2007, 05:00:10 pm
If I remember well... the Jenoptik press release said that the hy6 branded sinar and leaf would work just with sinar and leaf DBs, and that the Hy6 branded rollei would work with F&H film backs. How can this one (Rollei Hy6) be chipped to fail contact with a P1 back? Seems pretty obvious they will make it work if they want.  
And what's F&H's point of making a "film-only" camera"? To compete with the H2F?
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: samuel_js on November 21, 2007, 05:02:33 pm
Yes I found it:

"The medium-format camera body is the result of a collaboration between Jenoptik, Sinar, Leaf and Franke
& Heidecke. With its completely new concept the camera forms the powerful platform for two system
families (Hy6 and AFi) and will be sold exclusively by Sinar, Leaf and Franke & Heidecke and their
distributors. It is designed to work exclusively with Sinar or Leaf digital backs or the Franke & Heidecke
analogue film backs
."

> Press release. (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=3706)
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: samuel_js on November 21, 2007, 05:05:50 pm
I must correct myself:
The press release doesn't specify witch DB will fit the "Rollei" Hy6. But  It does mention the Rolleiflex Hy6.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: bradleygibson on November 21, 2007, 06:09:57 pm
This would work, and would likely not be too hard (assuming nothing is encrypted).  But two problems with that approach spring to mind:

1) Firmware updates could easily break Phase's reverse-engineered compatibility.
2) At least in the U.S., a not-so-popular little law known as DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act) might be able to prevent such backs from being sold here.

Still, I'd be interested in evaluating a solution regardless--Like everyone else, I just need to see the details to be able to make a good decision for my photography business.

-Brad

P.S.  Or, it could be they're having trouble finding a Hy6 to buy...   (kidding)
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If Phase wants to do it, they only need to buy a camera body and figure out the electronic contacts.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154704\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 22, 2007, 04:59:45 am
Quote
The weirdest thing of all is that PhaseOne actually does make a P20, a P25 and a P45 for the Rolleiflex 6008AF without ever advertising it. There is a company called Rollei Metric GmbH that uses standard 6008AF bodies and specially calibrated standard Rollei lenses for metrical use. The company is owned by PhaseOne for 20%. Phase supplies the backs, that have a shape which also fits any standard 6008AF or i2. Rollei Metric GmbH is located at the same address as the Franke & Heidecke factory. Check out this PDF spec sheet:

http://www.rollei-metric.com/uploads/files...al%20metric.pdf (http://www.rollei-metric.com/uploads/files/prospekte/RolleiMetric%206008digital%20metric.pdf)

Interesting, huh? 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154851\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Bizarre, and very interesting. I never knew about this. Are you sure they will work with an ordinary 6008AF? Does their modification include a digital interface, or does the back need a cable connection to the flash sync port?
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: canmiya on November 22, 2007, 05:54:24 am
Quote
Bizarre, and very interesting. I never knew about this. Are you sure they will work with an ordinary 6008AF? Does their modification include a digital interface, or does the back need a cable connection to the flash sync port?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=154908\")
the  announcement back in 2005:
[a href=\"http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/news/articles/story_3314.html]http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/news/artic...story_3314.html[/url]
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: godtfred on November 22, 2007, 05:55:47 am
Quote
The weirdest thing of all is that PhaseOne actually does make a P20, a P25 and a P45 for the Rolleiflex 6008AF without ever advertising it. There is a company called Rollei Metric GmbH that uses standard 6008AF bodies and specially calibrated standard Rollei lenses for metrical use. The company is owned by PhaseOne for 20%. Phase supplies the backs, that have a shape which also fits any standard 6008AF or i2. Rollei Metric GmbH is located at the same address as the Franke & Heidecke factory. Check out this PDF spec sheet:

http://www.rollei-metric.com/uploads/files...al%20metric.pdf (http://www.rollei-metric.com/uploads/files/prospekte/RolleiMetric%206008digital%20metric.pdf)

Interesting, huh? 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154851\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Inside the brochure attatched to your post it says:

"Rolleiflex 6008 body with fixed mounted digital back"

The text does not make it clear that you can take the back of the 6008 and attatch it to another body.

-axel
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: samuel_js on November 22, 2007, 06:04:07 am
Quote
Inside the brochure attatched to your post it says:

"Rolleiflex 6008 body with fixed mounted digital back"

The text does not make it clear that you can take the back of the 6008 and attatch it to another body.

-axel
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=154916\")
Yes you can put a film back if you want and no sync cable needed (not 100% sure). See [a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19722]this thread[/url]. Eric W had one for sale back in October.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 22, 2007, 06:20:01 am
Quote
the  announcement back in 2005:
http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/news/artic...story_3314.html (http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/news/articles/story_3314.html)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154915\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The Rollei P20 is old news. What was new to me was the fact that there appears to be a P45 version too.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: godtfred on November 22, 2007, 06:28:56 am
Quote
Yes you can put a film back if you want and no sync cable needed (not 100% sure). See this thread (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19722). Eric W had one for sale back in October.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154917\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm pretty sure the "Rollei digital bundle" version is a different type than this option... and was sold through rollei and their distributors directly. The .pdf is not the same (in any way) as the Rollei digital bundle with P20... (And the company seems different as well, even though the partners are the same.)

-axel
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: godtfred on November 22, 2007, 10:32:18 am
Quote
The back is in fact a standard back that can be removed.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154955\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I stand corrected  

And I hope Rollei indeed does sell some Hy6'es to Rollei Metric  

-axel
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: mcfoto on November 22, 2007, 05:44:48 pm
Hi
This debate has been going on for a year now. The Hy6 project is owned by Sinar with Leaf also on this platform. This is a way of increasing market share for Sinar. Sinar has been running 4th for a while now. Even that poll on the other thread confirms this. I did a test with this camera last week with a Sinar back on it. This is not a camera that you can mount any back on it. This is a camera for Leaf & Sinar only.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: hubell on November 22, 2007, 07:32:42 pm
Quote
Now what would happen if F&H sold Rolleiflex Hy6 bodies to Rollei Metric?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=154955\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

A lawsuit.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: samuel_js on November 22, 2007, 07:55:13 pm
Where can I buy a Rolleiflex Hy6 with a film back?
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: jpjespersen on November 22, 2007, 09:01:09 pm
I don't really understand why everyone is so insistent that phase can not make a back for the hy6.  I don't see any legal issues or problems, besides possible firmware updates not being compatible.  i know that for my car I can buy any part that is needed for my car, and it doesn't have to be manufactured by honda.  I would imagine it is the same for camera's.  If somebody wants to make a part for a camera, there is no legal reason why they can't, as far as I know.

Quote
There is no question that only Leaf and Sinar are to be officially used on the Hy6/AFi. We know the history of it and the reasons. And it has been confirmed over and over again. However, as the strange story with the Phase backs for 6008AF shows, anything is possible. I bet there was not one photographer here who knew that Phase ever made P25 and P45 backs for the 6008AF. Only the P20 has been known as available for the 6008AF at some point, under the Rollei brand name. These facts show that not everything is always what the officials say are the facts.

By the way, the Hy6 project is NOT owned by Sinar. It is owned by Jenoptik, currently the parent company of Sinar, but only a major Sinar stakeholder at the time of development of the Hy6 (called JMF 645AF at the time). Sinar was only marginally involved in the development of the Hy6. They are selling the Hy6 because Jenoptik has decided so. Franke & Heidecke, the producer of the camera, is delivering its Hy6/AFi products to Jenoptik from where they will be further distributed to Leaf and Sinar.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155067\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: thsinar on November 22, 2007, 09:28:48 pm
Again, ask yourself why nobody has ever made an adaption of their digital back to the H3D body although the Hasselblad back of this H3D can be removed as can be removed the Sinarback from the Hy6 body.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
I don't really understand why everyone is so insistent that phase can not make a back for the hy6.  I don't see any legal issues or problems, besides possible firmware updates not being compatible.  i know that for my car I can buy any part that is needed for my car, and it doesn't have to be manufactured by honda.  I would imagine it is the same for camera's.  If somebody wants to make a part for a camera, there is no legal reason why they can't, as far as I know.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155094\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: JDG on November 22, 2007, 10:03:54 pm
Interesting, however there are two very important differences between H3D and Hy6.  The H3D is limited to not only H3D backs, even other Hasselblad backs will not work on it due to its firmware restrictions.  Also the H3D body is not sold independently like the Hy6.  It does not seem to be a problem of legality.

Quote
Again, ask yourself why nobody has ever made an adaption of their digital back to the H3D body although the Hasselblad back of this H3D can be removed as can be removed the Sinarback from the Hy6 body.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155103\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: mtomalty on November 22, 2007, 11:18:22 pm
Thierry

Do you have any idea of how many Hy6's have been delivered to endusers,not
including demo backs for the sales force?

I speculate that this number might be one reason that Phase does not appear to be
rushing to allocate the necessary resources towards getting their backs to work with the Hy6

Add to the mix their recent announcement concerning their own branded camera and I
wouldn't expect they will be prioritizing efforts in the Hy6 direction.

Purely speculation,of course.

Mark
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: PatrikR on November 23, 2007, 07:46:09 am
Quote
Thierry

Do you have any idea of how many Hy6's have been delivered to endusers,not
including demo backs for the sales force?

I speculate that this number might be one reason that Phase does not appear to be
rushing to allocate the necessary resources towards getting their backs to work with the Hy6

Add to the mix their recent announcement concerning their own branded camera and I
wouldn't expect they will be prioritizing efforts in the Hy6 direction.

Purely speculation,of course.

Mark
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155124\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Since PhaseOne is not a part of the Hy6 project where could they have received a Hy6? You can't make a back for something that doesn't exist. Maybe once they are plentily available they can order one from B&H and figure out how it works...

Yes Thierry - Why haven't anybody taken down a H3D? Do we have to wait for the chinese for resque. They already have their own BMW X5 with a touch of Toyota LandCuiser and Mercedes...
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: thsinar on November 23, 2007, 08:02:24 am
oh yes, and I even drove in one last week! But so far I've not seen any H3D with a "foreign" back.

 

Thierry

Quote
Yes Thierry - Why haven't anybody taken down a H3D? Do we have to wait for the chinese for resque. They already have their own BMW X5 with a touch of Toyota LandCuiser and Mercedes...

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155180\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: Dustbak on November 23, 2007, 08:25:46 am
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oh yes, and I even drove in one last week! But so far I've not seen any H3D with a "foreign" back.

 

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155184\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I hope Hasselblad will be the first to develop an adaptation for its own "foreign" back (CF line).
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: hubell on November 23, 2007, 09:21:55 am
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No, they are free to sell Rolleiflex branded Hy6 bodies without a digital back to anyone.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155137\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't think you understand the way commercial contracts work. It would be one thing for Phase to go out into the retail market and buy up a Rolleiflex Hy6 from a dealer, and a completely different thing for F&H, as the contract manufacturer of the Hy6 cameras that is legally permitted to only sell its variant with an interface for Sinar and Leaf backs, to sell a significant quantity of Rolleiflexes to Phase with the implied understanding that they would be converted into Phase Hy6s.
In any event, this is all idle speculation. There are so many copyright infringement and other issues around Phase trying to mate its backs with the digital interface of the Hy6 that it just will never happen. Phase is much better off focusing its resources on developing a new, integrated Mamiya camera system.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: PatrikR on November 23, 2007, 09:50:04 am
Quote
I don't think you understand the way commercial contracts work. It would be one thing for Phase to go out into the retail market and buy up a Rolleiflex Hy6 from a dealer, and a completely different thing for F&H, as the contract manufacturer of the Hy6 cameras that is legally permitted to only sell its variant with an interface for Sinar and Leaf backs, to sell a significant quantity of Rolleiflexes to Phase with the implied understanding that they would be converted into Phase Hy6s.
In any event, this is all idle speculation. There are so many copyright infringement and other issues around Phase trying to mate its backs with the digital interface of the Hy6 that it just will never happen. Phase is much better off focusing its resources on developing a new, integrated Mamiya camera system.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155191\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There are so few medium format users in the world that to develop a camera like Hy6 must be bordering total craziness. After spending fortunes on R&D why wouldn't they want to sell them as many as possible? I think it's totally naive to think that everybody will switch backs in order to get the new cool camera... Rollei with such long tradition will sure want back in to the business with enough hunger to sell hundreds of lenses, bodies and such. Somebody wrote that they are 85 now so there's plenty of expenses for any company to keep their salaries paid.

If Hasselblad want's to close the door on their existing customers and future sales of lenses and bodies that's their call. I don't think/hope all the other MF manufacturers are equally close minded. Poor Hasselblad lives a wet dream of being like Canon. MF cameras are not DSLRs waiting to be tossed away once obsolete every 6 months or so. MF cameras are modular systems that you invest into and upgrade along your career.

If it was up to me I would sell to anybody with enough cash. In a small market back stabbing will always cost dearly. I personally can not afford to choose my customers. Obviously some companies can.

MF world needs choices. Many here have expressed their interest towards Hy6. Maybe PhaseOne's Mamiya is not for everyone?

Patrik
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: samuel_js on November 23, 2007, 10:07:46 am
And why would F&H sign a contract that prohibits them the selling camera bodies to the most popular DB manufacturer? Is it not in their interest to sell as much Rollei Hy6s as they can?
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 23, 2007, 11:22:21 am
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And why would F&H sign a contract that prohibits them the selling camera bodies to the most popular DB manufacturer? Is it not in their interest to sell as much Rollei Hy6s as they can?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155204\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I believe F&H were approached by Jenoptik to build the new cameras. Jenoptik probably financed it in return for exclusivity.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: lance_schad on November 23, 2007, 12:28:47 pm
Quote
Again, ask yourself why nobody has ever made an adaption of their digital back to the H3D body although the Hasselblad back of this H3D can be removed as can be removed the Sinarback from the Hy6 body.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155103\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Why would anyone want to design a back that is compatible with the H3D body? It is the same as the H2(physically) which backs are currently designed for , but has special firmware only for Hasselblad digitalbacks. Even Hasselblads own brand digital backs(previous generations)don't work on the H3D unless they get upgraded for a fee.

Also you cannot buy a bare H3 body, the H3D is an "integrated" camera solution.

So where is the incentive to put a "foreign" back on it????

I do feel there will be an incentive for someone to try to figure out the H2F. I wonder if the firmware can either be downgraded to regular H2 status, or if they are really going to disconnect a couple of wires to physically disable the camera not to be used by any other digital back manufacturers products.  It seems to me it is more effort to do what they are doing with the H2 then just letting it be and allowing their users to buy new product as their platform of choice (for db of choice) or for back-ups to the system that they currently have invested in.

I am curious if their announcements have really lead to more back and glass sales or just forced people to consider other platforms instead of being locked in.

Lance Schad  
Capture Integration - Miami
305-394-3196
lance@captureintegration.com
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: John Camp on November 23, 2007, 01:25:17 pm
The speculation about "foreign" backs on different cameras is largely nonsense. Unless you're one of those people who is simply fascinated by machinery (as opposed to photography) why would you spend, say, $30,000 on a back that may or may not work well with a particular camera, that may or may not be supported in the future, whose firmware upgrades that may work well with the native camera might not work at all with your combination? Could anyone honestly say that they will see startling differences in the print if they were able to use, say, a Phase back on a Hasselblad rather than the Hassy back? And assuming that such a thing could even be done, there would be so few sales for Phase, you have to ask how much effort Phase would put into supporting such a project five years in the future. My estimate: none.

The hard fact is, I believe, that we will have three systems (or four, depending on how you count the Hy6). They will produce very similar IQ, with few differences except possibly in extreme blow-ups; those slight differences may be reflected in price (as between Mamiya and Hassy, for example.) So we wind up back in the film era: do you want to pay more for a Hassy, and perhaps get a slightly better lens and more prestige, or less for a Mamiya, and get everything you need for the high-quality magazine repro?

JC
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: jpjespersen on November 23, 2007, 01:28:44 pm
Ditto.

Quote
Why would anyone want to design a back that is compatible with the H3D body? It is the same as the H2(physically) which backs are currently designed for , but has special firmware only for Hasselblad digitalbacks. Even Hasselblads own brand digital backs(previous generations)don't work on the H3D unless they get upgraded for a fee.

Also you cannot buy a bare H3 body, the H3D is an "integrated" camera solution.

So where is the incentive to put a "foreign" back on it????

I do feel there will be an incentive for someone to try to figure out the H2F. I wonder if the firmware can either be downgraded to regular H2 status, or if they are really going to disconnect a couple of wires to physically disable the camera not to be used by any other digital back manufacturers products.  It seems to me it is more effort to do what they are doing with the H2 then just letting it be and allowing their users to buy new product as their platform of choice (for db of choice) or for back-ups to the system that they currently have invested in.

I am curious if their announcements have really lead to more back and glass sales or just forced people to consider other platforms instead of being locked in.

Lance Schad  
Capture Integration - Miami
305-394-4196
lance@captureintegration.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155232\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: Dustbak on November 23, 2007, 02:24:00 pm
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The speculation about "foreign" backs on different cameras is largely nonsense. Unless you're one of those people who is simply fascinated by machinery (as opposed to photography) why would you spend, say, $30,000 on a back that may or may not work well with a particular camera, that may or may not be supported in the future, whose firmware upgrades that may work well with the native camera might not work at all with your combination?

Hasselblad is expecting people to spend over 30K USD on a back that is not even supported by any of their current bodies.

Hasselblad is claiming further develop the CF line of backs, with which I am pleased but currently there is no Hasselblad body that is in current production that can be used with the CF backs.

I find that a strange situation.

I would love to have an adapter for the H3 for my CF back. Yes, in that case Hasselblad also needs to start selling separate H3 bodies.

No the H3 is not the same as the H2. The H2 is a discontinued body and cannot be bought new anymore. The H2 is at the end of the line, the H3 at the beginning.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: josayeruk on November 23, 2007, 02:39:54 pm
Quote
Hasselblad is expecting people to spend over 30K USD on a back that is not even supported by any of their current bodies.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155258\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not really.  The H3D is not a back, cannot be bought as a 'back' and is not supplied in any other form than a paired camera body and digital unit.

But you can of course take that sensor unit off and use it with a view camera, or any other kind of camera that has an 'H' type plate or can be adapted to take an H type plate.

Jo S.x
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: Dustbak on November 23, 2007, 02:56:20 pm
Quote
Not really.  The H3D is not a back, cannot be bought as a 'back' and is not supplied in any other form than a paired camera body and digital unit.

But you can of course take that sensor unit off and use it with a view camera, or any other kind of camera that has an 'H' type plate or can be adapted to take an H type plate.

Jo S.x
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155260\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am talking about the Hasselblad CF Backs! These are bought as a back and until previously were the only multishot backs available from Hasselblad (CF39MS & CF22MS). With the ending of the H2 this back, the CF, has no current body.

The Hasselblad CF backs use adapterplates to fit on many different bodies. Plates are there for: Mamiya, V, H, Rollei, etc.. but not for the H3.

The CF39 costs somewhere in the Mid 20K USD and the CF39MS well over 30K USD. You can only use them with the discontinued H2 if you want to use it with Hasselblad H. (You are not going to use a MS on a V body, at least not if you want to do MS).

THE CF BACKS ARE STILL CURRENT! Hasselblad even has announced future development of the CF. Hopefully that will be H3 adapter plates.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: samuel_js on November 23, 2007, 03:57:50 pm
Quote
I am curious if their announcements have really lead to more back and glass sales or just forced people to consider other platforms instead of being locked in.

Lance Schad  
Capture Integration - Miami
305-394-4196
lance@captureintegration.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155232\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'm currently H2 (and three lenses) user and I'm ready to switch as soon as the new Phaseone camera is out. Hasselblad will be history for me.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: hubell on November 23, 2007, 04:58:11 pm
Quote
I think that my posting record shows that I understand more of this F&H/Jenoptik relationship than most here. The contract says that F&H is not permitted to offer the Hy6 with any digital back. But selling bodies without a back is not restricted.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155264\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I can assure you that Jenoptik's legal advisors would not share your interpretation of the contract language governing the relationship between F&H, Jenoptik and Leaf.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: Snook on November 23, 2007, 07:09:08 pm
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I can assure you that Jenoptik's legal advisors would not share your interpretation of the contract language governing the relationship between F&H, Jenoptik and Leaf.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155302\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
HassleBlad gambled and Lost if you ask me..  
I never liked Hasssleblad apart from their optics which are great. But their recent decision to close out the other guys was a Bad marketing move. also going closed system was a bad move. Would not be surprised if the new HDIV went back some how...:+}
If Leica is the rumored lens company that will work with mamiya then Hassleblad is really going to be hating life...  
Snook
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: hubell on November 23, 2007, 10:32:28 pm
Quote
HassleBlad gambled and Lost if you ask me..  
I never liked Hasssleblad apart from their optics which are great. But their recent decision to close out the other guys was a Bad marketing move. also going closed system was a bad move. Would not be surprised if the new HDIV went back some how...:+}
If Leica is the rumored lens company that will work with mamiya then Hassleblad is really going to be hating life...  
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155345\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What a complete non-sequitor. Who said anything at all about Hasselblad? What is your obsession with Hasselblad? Do all topics have to be redirected back to that, with a level or religious fervor? See if you can contribute to the topic at hand without the H word.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: samuel_js on November 24, 2007, 03:46:24 am
Quote
What a complete non-sequitor. Who said anything at all about Hasselblad? What is your obsession with Hasselblad? Do all topics have to be redirected back to that, with a level or religious fervor? See if you can contribute to the topic at hand without the H word.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155388\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You just have to read yourself to see who's contributing to the topic.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: j.miller on November 24, 2007, 09:57:22 am
Just to be clear, Hasselblad has made H3D bodies available, as of several months ago, to allow H3D/II users the options of having a backup body. They are priced at $3,557.00 MAP (Part #3013160) and require "joint calibration and adjustment" with an existing H3D/II system.

Also, Hasselblad CF-Series digital backs are compatible with the H2F. Just as PhaseOne, Leaf, and Sinar backs are compatible. However, all of them (including Hasselblad's) will require the use of a PC sync cord.

I believe it is obvious the majority of Hasselblad's "effort" is being focused on the products that are in demand, and generate appropriate profit margin (ie. digital). Analog products (bodies and lenses) do not provide adequate margin without digital products being tied to them. This is evident today, in every digital back on the market, including PhaseOne.

Regards,

Jordan Miller

Quote
Why would anyone want to design a back that is compatible with the H3D body? It is the same as the H2(physically) which backs are currently designed for , but has special firmware only for Hasselblad digitalbacks. Even Hasselblads own brand digital backs(previous generations)don't work on the H3D unless they get upgraded for a fee.

Also you cannot buy a bare H3 body, the H3D is an "integrated" camera solution.

So where is the incentive to put a "foreign" back on it????

I do feel there will be an incentive for someone to try to figure out the H2F. I wonder if the firmware can either be downgraded to regular H2 status, or if they are really going to disconnect a couple of wires to physically disable the camera not to be used by any other digital back manufacturers products.  It seems to me it is more effort to do what they are doing with the H2 then just letting it be and allowing their users to buy new product as their platform of choice (for db of choice) or for back-ups to the system that they currently have invested in.

I am curious if their announcements have really lead to more back and glass sales or just forced people to consider other platforms instead of being locked in.

Lance Schad 
Capture Integration - Miami
305-394-4196
lance@captureintegration.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155232\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: free1000 on November 24, 2007, 10:00:31 am
Quote
If Leica is the rumored lens company that will work with mamiya then Hassleblad is really going to be hating life...  
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155345\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Who rumoured this? You?

Its an interesting notion as Leica clearly have been looking at ways of leveraging their brand value, eg: with the Panasonics.

As a longtime Mamiya owner, and occasional Leica fetishist this would suit my very well. An AFDIII with a red dot on it. That would be weird.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: Dustbak on November 24, 2007, 10:21:52 am
Quote
Also, Hasselblad CF-Series digital backs are compatible with the H2F. However, all of them (including Hasselblad's) will require the use of a PC sync cord.


Jordan Miller

Your and my definition of compatibility vary substantially!

Lets step over the sync cord for the moment even though it makes me truly laugh when that is mentioned. I cannot take that really serious, we are talking so-called state of the art equipment not stuff like view cameras or pinholes.

Another example. With my H2 I have DAC. Do I get DAC when I use a H2F?  No, I do not! Probably now somebody is going to say DAC wasn't so great to begin with?

Anyway, I am still waiting to see what Hasselblad means with future development for the CF. (see open letter to Hasselblad customers where this is mentioned.)
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: EgillBjarki on November 24, 2007, 12:56:04 pm
As I understood it when Hy6 pronounced in the making, it was an open platform camera. From what I understand from reading this forum, Phase One has stated on theyre message forum theyre back will work on Hy6. Good news if so.

I am really looking forward to see the end resault of Mamiya and Phase One working together. My guess is that they will make a camera compatable with current mamiya optics, but I am hoping they will adress the sync issue. Then they will have to produce system with sutter in lens to up the sync speed right?

Could Mamiya and Phase One produce a camera that would take current Mamiya optics and a possible new line of Mamiya optics with an in lens leaf shutter system? Then they have time to produce a whole new lens line with leaf shutters?

I own a Hasselblad H2 and a Phase One P30+ back since january 2007 and love my setup. I am angry towards Hasselblad, and will not consider the Hasselblad back because of the long exposure (longest shutter time 32sec). Having a camera that no longer is produced I fear not getting proper service in the future and no new lenses made for my H2, possible tilt and shift that might only fit H3D.

Looking at the Hy6, I really have not made up my mind and will not consider it if Phase One does not fit it.

I there for look to Phase One and Mamiya's project with grate hope. I dont expect upgrading my setup soon, but who knows how the landscape of digital MF photography will be after two years?

I wanna be in a reliable system with top qualety that gives me few bounderies. I feel good now with my setup, but fear the future...
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: josayeruk on November 24, 2007, 11:29:54 pm
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Having a camera that no longer is produced I fear not getting proper service in the future and no new lenses made for my H2, possible tilt and shift that might only fit H3D.

[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=155515\")

[a href=\"http://www.hasselblad.com/welcome.aspx]http://www.hasselblad.com/welcome.aspx[/url]

The last news lens was the 150mm (revamp) and was available to all models.

Jo S.x
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: PatrikR on November 25, 2007, 04:21:56 am
Hasselblad made the H2F in order to avoid the EU competition officials. If they had closed the H system completely they would be in court. The same happened to Apple just a few days ago. Apple wanted to keep their iPhone system closed in Germany like it's in USA and was told NO by the court! Now they have to sell unlocked iPhones in Germany. The price went up to $1500 and T-Mobile has to unlock all iPhones they had already sold for free. Well whos going to buy one at $1500?

What's even the point of keeping a system closed? This is the stupidest thing for me. For example Linux would never have succeeded if it had been closed. All other UNIX systems are pretty much dead now. What happened to SGI's workstations? These few year old $120.000 3D desktops are available as refurbished units for less than $1000. It used to be a prestigious thing for design firms to have atleast one SGI seat but cheaper, more open systems took over (PC).

No patent, software copyright or intellectual property rights are going to keep anybody in business if their products are not selling. By closing a system down will only hurt its success in the long run. History has shown this many times. Better and more open systems will emerge.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 25, 2007, 06:33:31 am
Quote
No patent, software copyright or intellectual property rights are going to keep anybody in business if their products are not selling.

 By closing a system down will only hurt its success in the long run.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155711\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is an interesting concept

Currently there seems to be technical advantages to closed systems

The H seiries is a great product getting better

BUT

Thinking about the whole camera system there are (as yet unimagined) things that could happen that would make open the winner

Possible ideas..

A 16mp 3200ISO back at $5000

An af confirm back with proper live view and decent (5 inch) screen

a back with real time 'wireless' tethered shooting to a basestation with a 23'LCD

An IS back

IS MF lenses

Amazing software interaction - GPS google earth - 3d walkthrough imaging - whatever

Technologies developed by a third party software company

Now if that technology didnt work with a closed system but did with an open then it could be a probalem for the closed crowd

I for one would go for the system with the 16mp 3200 back

am going to start a crazy ideas thread..

S
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: thsinar on November 25, 2007, 11:05:05 am
I wish to intervene and add our information:

The Hy6 medium format camera system is in fact “owned” by Jenoptik (www.jenoptik-los.com), who commissioned Franke and Heidecke to co-develop and then manufacture their camera.

Franke and Heidecke, Leaf as well as Sinar are OEM suppliers of this Jenoptik camera system.
You can see the latest Jenoptik Press releases about the Hy6 (where it’s officially stated that Jenoptik designed the camera) here:

http://www.sinar.ch/file_uploads/bibliothe...ssrelease_e.pdf (http://www.sinar.ch/file_uploads/bibliothek/k_95_PressReleases/648_0_jenoptik_pressrelease_e.pdf)

and here:

http://www.jenoptik-los.com/cms.php?NEWSID...id=67〈=1 (http://www.jenoptik-los.com/cms.php?NEWSID=590&pageid=67〈=1)


Franke & Heidecke is doing mainly the physical and mechanical production as well as the assembling of the Hy6 camera. Electronic developements are mainly done at Jenoptik and in Switzerland in cooperation with an engineering company.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Jenoptik has indeed financed most of the development of the Hy6 in return for the rights to the new patents and the firmware. Additionally a number of Rollei owned patents went into the camera. So there is also a significant investment (mostly intellectual/labour-wise) from F&H's side in this new camera. That has lead to the right to sell the body with film backs, while the exclusive right to control the firmware has gone to Jenoptik. Jenoptik is the only company that can license the use of the firmware to DB-makers. But if someone else wants to work around that firmware there isn't much Jenoptik can do. (I think they should be happy selling cameras and lenses anyway. That will also bring in money, although maybe not as much as selling DB's. A well represented platform is in anybody's interest, except that of the competition.)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155266\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: TechTalk on November 25, 2007, 12:42:06 pm
Quote
Hasselblad made the H2F in order to avoid the EU competition officials. If they had closed the H system completely they would be in court. The same happened to Apple just a few days ago. Apple wanted to keep their iPhone system closed in Germany like it's in USA and was told NO by the court! Now they have to sell unlocked iPhones in Germany. The price went up to $1500 and T-Mobile has to unlock all iPhones they had already sold for free. Well whos going to buy one at $1500?

What's even the point of keeping a system closed? This is the stupidest thing for me. For example Linux would never have succeeded if it had been closed. All other UNIX systems are pretty much dead now. What happened to SGI's workstations? These few year old $120.000 3D desktops are available as refurbished units for less than $1000. It used to be a prestigious thing for design firms to have atleast one SGI seat but cheaper, more open systems took over (PC).

No patent, software copyright or intellectual property rights are going to keep anybody in business if their products are not selling. By closing a system down will only hurt its success in the long run. History has shown this many times. Better and more open systems will emerge.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155711\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yes. Isn't a shame that Hasselblad and Imacon merged–saving Hasselblad from being the next medium-format camera maker to go out of business.

The three camera makers that managed to survive (Hasselblad, Rollei and Mamiya) should all be dragged into court, forced to follow your business plan, forced to sell cameras that lose money, forced to stay in the generic camera body market (so that Phase One and others can catch a free ride on any camera that they choose, at no cost to them–but at a loss to the camera maker), forced to keep doing what caused the death of their former competitiors and nearly drove the remaining three out of business as well.

Yes. Thats sounds like by far the wisest and fairest plan. But, what camera are you going to use when they are all out of business?
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: Dustbak on November 25, 2007, 12:54:12 pm
You are for some reason assuming that keeping an open system, a system where you let others develop based on pre-defined standards, will always lead to bankruptcy.  This has never been proven by anyone, on the contrary more than one party has become very big because of widespread usage that way.

The way you put it, seems to be; close your system, make everything proprietary or go bust.

A fairly short-sighted vision.

There is a reason the EU is fairly anxious for developments like this. It is not only protection for a vendor but acts like this eventually lead to lesser incentive to develop and innovation besides the much more often heard hindering of competition.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: TechTalk on November 25, 2007, 04:59:23 pm
Quote
You are for some reason assuming that keeping an open system, a system where you let others develop based on pre-defined standards, will always lead to bankruptcy.  This has never been proven by anyone, on the contrary more than one party has become very big because of widespread usage that way.

The way you put it, seems to be; close your system, make everything proprietary or go bust.

A fairly short-sighted vision.

There is a reason the EU is fairly anxious for developments like this. It is not only protection for a vendor but acts like this eventually lead to lesser incentive to develop and innovation besides the much more often heard hindering of competition.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=155824\")
On the contrary, I'm saying that not all markets function or develop in the same way. Financial and market forces, along with technology developments, will dictate what allows a company (or entire market segments) to survive or remain profitable. There is not a single path that companies and products must follow, but multiple paths.

The way that the medium-format camera market has developed, over the last several years, came close to forcing all of the camera makers out of business. Three managed to hang on despite the very severe financial loses they suffered. The inability for any company to make a profit selling generic medium-format cameras is clear, undeniable and self evident. This is why they are all now tied to support from the profits of digital backs. This is not the result of any one company's actions, but the consequence of changes that effected the entire medium-format market during the transition from film to digital.

How did the medium-format market get to this point? Why did the medium-format camera business become unprofitable and unsustainable? Every market has a balance point that requires a certain volume to break even and be sustainable. That volume does not exist, and has not existed for some years, in the medium-format camera market. During the transition from film to digital,  MF camera makers continued with their traditional business model of making cameras and lenses, absent any digital capture device. During this transition, digital back makers were like hitchhikers–catching a free ride on whatever camera vehicle was available, without paying for the gas, the vehicle cost, tires, maintenance, etc.. They rode along for free until the vehicle ran out of gas and crashed on the side of the road–then hopped on board remaining available camera body vehicles until they ran out of money and fuel to continue. The financial condition, of the few vehicles left to ride on, made this no longer a sustainable plan for anyone.

In order to survive, refuel, change the tires and maintain the engine–Hasselblad merged with Imacon. What had been a freeloading passenger, started to pay for the cost of the vehicle and took the driver's seat. They provided a map that put the combined company on the right road–one that was profitable. The profits were invested in upgrading the ride (DAC automatic lens corrections, GPS, a better display, better viewfinder, a complete software overhaul, pattern detection moire removal, integrated camera/back controls, etc,). They decided to withdraw from the segment of the market that almost caused their demise, that was costing more money than it brought in, that diverted limited financial and production resources away from developing integrated technology products to compete with rapidly increasing capabilities from the integrated systems that Nikon and Canon are developing–and chose a no-more-hitchhikers path.

Jenoptik (Sinar) and Leaf decided, for the present and near term, to share a taxi. In the future, one of them could make an offer to buy the entire taxi business. Time will tell.

Phase One (whose CEO predicted in 2005 that Hasselblad and Contax would continue to be available to give them free rides into the future, while other camera platforms perhaps faded away [a href=\"http://www.luminous-landscape.com/video_journal/vj13-phase-ceo.shtml]See Link[/url]) protested these logical changes in the market on moral and philosophical grounds (as have a portion of the consumers of these products) as if they were unaware of the financial issues involved and held on to their profits and purse strings as long as possible. Finally,realizing the free rides were over, they decided to invest some of their profits in the last vehicle available, Mamiya, to help drag them out of the financial ditch in which they have been stuck. How that will develop in the long term also remains to be seen.

People are free to tear their hair, wring their hands and scream as loudly as they like about "open", "closed", integration, common standards, proprietary functionality and more. But freedom to make choices and decisions in a market is not always limited to consumers only and denied to manufacturers that need to have free choice in deciding what products best insure their ability to survive, advance technologically and profit in the years ahead. People can take all of the rigid moral and philosophical positions they like, but it will not change the financial or market realities that exist.

The reality is that manufacturers are looking for return on investment and technological advantages in the market that aid their competitive position and long term survival. Whether that is achieved by designing products that are proprietary and integrated or by making component parts based on a common standard is based on financial, technological and market considerations–not moral and philosophical grounds.

I think that the "short-sighted vision" is to deny consumers, manufacturers and the market place the freedom to choose whether they want to invest in proprietary integrated solutions or mix-and-match component solutions. Both approaches will have merits, advantages and disadvantages. Why a manufacturer should be demonized for choosing the single-source integrated product path and offering consumers that as an alternative choice to mix-and-match solutions from multiple sources defies logic to me. How does denying consumers integrated solutions or coercing manufacturers to produce products they consider no longer sustainable provide a benefit to anyone?
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 25, 2007, 05:36:26 pm
Quote
market forces,
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155892\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

A very eloquent argument but I would question would users not just pay for the body they wanted even if the price had to be hiked to make the product profitable

Alpa for example does this

I know they may not be a great example because thier product is just simple enginerring (done well)

Come to think of it I would be very happy with a mirror ALPA, stuff the AE, AF, TTL flash etc - it doesnt work anyway on the current generation of electronic bodies

S
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: TechTalk on November 25, 2007, 06:11:26 pm
Quote
A very eloquent argument but I would question would users not just pay for the body they wanted even if the price had to be hiked to make the product profitable

Alpa for example does this

I know they may not be a great example because thier product is just simple enginerring (done well)

Come to think of it I would be very happy with a mirror ALPA, stuff the AE, AF, TTL flash etc - it doesnt work anyway on the current generation of electronic bodies

S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155907\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Simply raising the price, to make an unprofitable product market a profitable one, works only if the price increase does not further reduce the volume of that market. At some point, the market for any product can reach a volume that is so low there is no longer a balance of price and volume that can achieve profitabilty, break even or sustainability. In this case the market either ceases to exist or is supported and subsidized by profits from other products to which it is connected. This is where the medium-format camera market is today and where it has been headed for some years.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 25, 2007, 06:35:00 pm
Quote
Simply raising the price, to make an unprofitable product market a profitable one, works only if the price increase does not further reduce the volume of that market. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155923\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Quite true.

My own experience of buying an H1 is that I wanted decent AF and leaf shutters - I wanted out of my mamiya daylight flash shooting hell

I cant even remember asking the price

If I was price sensitive I would have a D80   and do

But with a climate where some products are subsidised it makes sense that maybe they all need to be

S
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: TechTalk on November 25, 2007, 07:45:32 pm
Quote
But with a climate where some products are subsidised it makes sense that maybe they all need to be

S
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155929\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The only products that need to be subsidized are ones that are not financially viable on their own, like medium-format cameras. Of the several makes and models that are or were (many didn't survive) on the market, none managed to do anything other than lose vast amounts of money for years.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: TechTalk on November 25, 2007, 10:02:02 pm
Quote
What's even the point of keeping a system closed? This is the stupidest thing for me. For example Linux would never have succeeded if it had been closed. All other UNIX systems are pretty much dead now.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155711\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
All other UNIX systems are not "pretty much dead now". Apple's OS X is a UNIX system that is enjoying great success. Yes, it is also a closed proprietary system that only works with computers made by Apple, but they are quite profitable and successful. In fact, their computer sales are growing at more than twice the industry average. It seems when offered a choice, some segements of the market, and some consumers, prefer a proprietary single-source computer and operating system. Some do not. There is room in the market for both options–and having both options extends consumer choices by offering different system solutions with each having unique advantages.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 25, 2007, 10:08:30 pm
Quote
All other UNIX systems are not "pretty much dead now". Apple's OS X is a UNIX system that is enjoying great success. Yes, it is also a closed proprietary system that only works with computers made by Apple, but they are quite profitable and successful.

Actually, OSX runs on PCs too so it's the most open OS they have ever had.
http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page (http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page)
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: TechTalk on November 25, 2007, 10:22:49 pm
Quote
Actually, OSX runs on PCs too so it's the most open OS they have ever had.
http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page (http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=155984\")
It is an option for the adventurous with time on their hands. Since it involves getting the OS to  operate with some hardware and protocols that are not designed into the system, it may involve time consuming work arounds, installations, terminal command line efforts and still may or may not fully function or may not boot at all. It isn't really gathering much interest among users.  [a href=\"http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/Technical_FAQ]x86 Technical FAQ Link[/url]
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: Dustbak on November 26, 2007, 01:52:13 am
Euhh...

Apple OS is only a Unix based OS since OSX! OSX86 is an illegal hack that runs on PC as far as Apple goes.

@Techtalk
Your last longer post was very well put and had much more nuance than the statements I reacted on. Thank you.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: TechTalk on November 26, 2007, 03:57:51 am
Quote
@Techtalk
Your last longer post was very well put and had much more nuance than the statements I reacted on. Thank you.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156017\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No problem. We all call them as we see them. Best wishes to you.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: thsinar on November 26, 2007, 04:17:51 am
EPd,

we will not start again, will we?

Facts are as I have described them, if you want it or not.

The link I have provided does actually work well for me. Read it, it says following (extract):

Press Release from 09/26/07:

"Photographers and the specialist photographic press are today going on a journey to "laser worlds" into Europe's largest tin mines at the showcase mine in Pöhla (Saxony). The Jenoptik Group is presenting its new Sinar Hy6 system to the specialist photo world and as such firing the starting shot to launch the sale of the new medium format camera for professional photographers.

The Hy6 mid format camera, the recipient of the Photokina Star 2006, was designed by Jenoptik and forms the basis for the new Sinar Hy6 system family. The camera system is equipped with the efficient digital camera backs of the Sinar eMotion series which are also based on technology from Jena".

I you wish, I can send it to you offline.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

In that PDF press release there is not one word claiming that Jenoptik has done the camera's design. And the supplied link to the Jenoptik page generates an error page saying that it cannot be found. I spelled out the role of the different parties involved with the Hy6 design, production and marketing quite precise in this posting: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=147498 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=20397&view=findpost&p=147498)

Please keep the facts straight.

Thanks,
EPd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=155940\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: PatrikR on November 26, 2007, 07:46:11 am
Quote
All other UNIX systems are not "pretty much dead now". Apple's OS X is a UNIX system that is enjoying great success. Yes, it is also a closed proprietary system that only works with computers made by Apple, but they are quite profitable and successful. In fact, their computer sales are growing at more than twice the industry average. It seems when offered a choice, some segements of the market, and some consumers, prefer a proprietary single-source computer and operating system. Some do not. There is room in the market for both options–and having both options extends consumer choices by offering different system solutions with each having unique advantages.
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Yes choices - I can hook up a Eizo, LG, Samsung monitor to my Mac Pro, and print to Epson, HP or Canon printers with no problem. I can install to Mac Pro any Sata drive and put third party memory. Even tapedrives made for PCs work in OSX.

Today I can't buy a Hasselblad H where I can put the latest PhaseOne, Leaf or Sinar back. But I can by a Mac that will run Windows. Besides my point was what happened to highly specialized proprietary closed systems like SGI.

If Apple for some reason would go back to proprietary connectors and busses and made software that would prohibit installment of third party options then it would be closed system like Hasselblad. Meaning if I wanted a new improved Mac I would have to buy new Apple labeled monitor, printer and what ever extras I needed. Is this the way you want things to be?
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: samuel_js on November 26, 2007, 07:56:40 am
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All other UNIX systems are not "pretty much dead now". Apple's OS X is a UNIX system that is enjoying great success. Yes, it is also a closed proprietary system that only works with computers made by Apple, but they are quite profitable and successful. In fact, their computer sales are growing at more than twice the industry average. It seems when offered a choice, some segements of the market, and some consumers, prefer a proprietary single-source computer and operating system. Some do not. There is room in the market for both options–and having both options extends consumer choices by offering different system solutions with each having unique advantages.
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Apple is growing even more since they opened to other OS. The release of iTunes and iPods for Windows for example. Actually, the new Leopard (and tiger) is compatible (but not supported yet) with pcs too. I tell you because I've seen it  with my eyes. This is not speculation.
And you can install windows on a Mac. The macs will take hard drives of any kind, optic drives, screens etc... I don't think is a closed system at all.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: TechTalk on November 26, 2007, 04:26:24 pm
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Yes choices - I can hook up a Eizo, LG, Samsung monitor to my Mac Pro, and print to Epson, HP or Canon printers with no problem. I can install to Mac Pro any Sata drive and put third party memory. Even tapedrives made for PCs work in OSX.

Today I can't buy a Hasselblad H where I can put the latest PhaseOne, Leaf or Sinar back. But I can by a Mac that will run Windows. Besides my point was what happened to highly specialized proprietary closed systems like SGI.

If Apple for some reason would go back to proprietary connectors and busses and made software that would prohibit installment of third party options then it would be closed system like Hasselblad. Meaning if I wanted a new improved Mac I would have to buy new Apple labeled monitor, printer and what ever extras I needed. Is this the way you want things to be?
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Apple is growing even more since they opened to other OS. The release of iTunes and iPods for Windows for example. Actually, the new Leopard (and tiger) is compatible (but not supported yet) with pcs too. I tell you because I've seen it  with my eyes. This is not speculation.
And you can install windows on a Mac. The macs will take hard drives of any kind, optic drives, screens etc... I don't think is a closed system at all.
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And there, ladies and gentlemen, lies the problem when you start comparing Apples and Oranges. I hesitated to reply to the post with the obvious misstatement that "all other UNIX systems are pretty much dead now." In retrospect, I shouldn't have bothered because it is pointless and irrelevant to compare different products in different markets.

Products, and markets for them, evolve based on their own unique set of driving forces that comprise (but are not limited to) history, tradition, breaks from tradition, standards, breaks from standards, technology developments, infrastructure, market structure, market volume, market shares, market divisions, distribution, finances, supply, demand... the list could go on and on. Market analysis is a subtle and complex skill. Comparison on message boards of various products in different markets, however, is generally performed with a meat ax. Generally by someone with an ax to grind.

These kinds of comparison threads drag on and on and, lead to no conclusion and eventually wither and die from boredom. The arguments fall into this pattern: 1) A broad generalization is made comparing product A in industry B to product X in market Y. 2) A response follows that is more specific, but framed by recognizing corelations that support the argument and ignoring the ones that do not. 3) Repeat step #2 with more detail or a different corelation. 4) Repeat step #3. 5) Repeat step #3. 6) Repeat step #3 until no one is listening and everyone moves on.

I could drag this one on by pointing to the holes in your arguments–the corelations that you chose to ignore. I won't, for the reasons above. It is an argument that would generate a lot of heat and no light.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: thsinar on November 26, 2007, 05:53:48 pm
EPd,

so WHAT?

My link to Jenoptik OFFICIAL press release DOES work, and this is what I am refering to. Since you dont seem to be able to read it, I will find attach the link especially for you again:

http://www.jenoptik-los.com/cms.php?NEWSID...ageid=67&lang=1 (http://www.jenoptik-los.com/cms.php?NEWSID=590&pageid=67&lang=1)

Just copy it in your browser and read.

ART-KON-TOR is a German company which has done the external design of this camera, commissioned by Jenoptik (not by F&H), period. I know it as well as you do.

The Swiss company which has done the electronics is well known by me and I have explained you offline where it is located and who is the people working in, period.

I am not denying that F&H has participated in the construction of this camera, but at a level explained by me in my previous post, period.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

Quoting internet links is something I can do too:

http://www.art-kon-tor.de/produktentwicklu...renzen/hy6.html (http://www.art-kon-tor.de/produktentwicklung-jena/referenzen/hy6.html)

It's in German. "Die von ART-KON-TOR designte Kamera für Profifotografen stellt im Mittelformatbereich einen Meilenstein dar und sorgte nicht nur auf der Messe für Furore." For those who can't read German, it says: "The by ART-KON-TOR designed camera (Hy6) for professional photographers sets a milestone in medium format, and didn't just make waves at the fair only".

Attached are two images showing the early Hy6 design studies on the wall of ART-KON-TOR's offices.
[attachment=4036:attachment] [attachment=4037:attachment]
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Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: thsinar on November 26, 2007, 06:55:41 pm
EPd,

Good that the link worked this time!

it does not make any sense to argue. You have your opinion and you stick to it, I have my information and I stick to it as well. A press release is a lie and/or propaganda?! Well, I let you responsible for this one.

Fact is what has been stated by Jenoptik, the owner, decider and payer of this project, and this has been published (made available to public knowledge). And you would like me to deny what the company I am working for is publishing? Are you serious?!

Best regards,
Thierry


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Thierry,

If ART-KON-TOR has designed the outside of the camera, the Swiss electronics company the electronic parts and F&H the mechanical inside, what exactly did Jenoptik design of this camera? The co-operation between the hired companies? Even IF a design team from Jenoptik designed any part of this camera, you could hardly claim that Jenoptik has designed the entire camera. The "official" Jenoptik announcement (the link worked this time, thanks) is not less official than that of ART-KON-TOR. I don't like lies. Especially when they are for propaganda purposes. To me Jenoptik's statement comes very close to such propaganda. And I would hope to see you be more careful in copying such badly founded claims, instead of fiercely defending them. You know how the different parties have contributed to the final product. I know how they have. There isn't much difference in what we both know. So why claim that the Hy6 is designed by Jenoptik? Isn't it enough that they own it? And that they paid for it? And that they own the rights to license access to it? And that they are handed over the new patents involved in the design? But all this does not make them the designer of it.... period.

EPd
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Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: thsinar on November 26, 2007, 07:14:11 pm
It sums up nothing!

A press release with information has been published. By definition, a press release is an official statement in which a company or person publishes information expected to be true. As such AND for having been informed, I do insist on this information.

Most of the companies (included in the MF field) do work with external persons/companies to engineer/design/do R&D/manufacture/mount/assemble, etc ....: the important part is where the decision(s) are taken. I do not want to play down the role of F&H, far from me this idea: they have their fair share in this work as well, obviously. Even/also Leaf has its fair share of cooperation in this project. I simply want to emphasize that all concerning the Hy6 design/manufacturing has been decided at the Jenoptik level.

Best to you too,
Thierry

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That indeed, dear Thierry, sums up very well the sad part of our disagreement.

All the best,
EPd
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Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: pprdigital on November 26, 2007, 08:53:53 pm
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Thierry,

If ART-KON-TOR has designed the outside of the camera, the Swiss electronics company the electronic parts and F&H the mechanical inside, what exactly did Jenoptik design of this camera? The co-operation between the hired companies? Even IF a design team from Jenoptik designed any part of this camera, you could hardly claim that Jenoptik has designed the entire camera. The "official" Jenoptik announcement (the link worked this time, thanks) is not less official than that of ART-KON-TOR. I don't like lies. Especially when they are for propaganda purposes. To me Jenoptik's statement comes very close to such propaganda. And I would hope to see you be more careful in copying such badly founded claims, instead of fiercely defending them. You know how the different parties have contributed to the final product. I know how they have. There isn't much difference in what we both know. So why claim that the Hy6 is designed by Jenoptik? Isn't it enough that they own it? And that they paid for it? And that they own the rights to license access to it? And that they are handed over the new patents involved in the design? But all this does not make them the designer of it.... period.

EPd
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=156242\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In the words of Bill Clinton:

"It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is."

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: thsinar on November 26, 2007, 09:01:49 pm
you are right, Steve: we all have our own truths. I stand for mine.

Best regards,
Thierry

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In the words of Bill Clinton:

"It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is."

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
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Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: Geoffrey on November 27, 2007, 01:31:04 am
This discussion about who designed what vs. who made what decisions is an interesting, juicy one, but it there is no good end to it. Small story:

In the 1920's, there was a woman named Charlotte Perriand who worked for Le Corbusier - she was in the studio there, under his managment. She designed a special chaise, which was subsequently marketed and has been long understood to be Le Corbusier's. She did the prototytpe, he took it over and gave it a bit of LC flair.

Here's the fun part: without Le Corbusier, there would be no chair. Without Perriand, there would be no design, and hence no chair. Without the atelier, there would be no chair.

So who designed what? Rather than looking for definition in a most un-defined area (design), it might be more fruitful to look for collaborators, and varied (positive) roles. As TH says, without Jenoptik acting as a client, project leader, and backer, there would be no project. I doubt that Jenoptik designed every bit of the camera, but neither did F&H. Yes, maybe one did more than the other, but rather than squabbling over that, I'd rather they make and sell more cameras, so we can all have one.

Fighting over the credit for the genius of the new child is a bit premature - lets hope it makes out  successfully. There's a long way to go.

Geoff G
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: thsinar on November 27, 2007, 06:49:49 am
EPd,

your comparison is quite "strange".

Beside that, credit to all companies have been given, at their right level of involvement.

I think we better leave it here, since we can only agree to disagree.

Best to you and with all my respect despite our different views,
Thierry

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Geoffrey,

I do not agree to what you're saying. Every good leader should know how important it is to credit everybody involved in the joint effort properly, if he wants to rely upon these people again in the future. Jenoptik wants to be the leader of this project and so all parties involved deserve proper credit.

When I commission a painter to make me a painting, maybe even to my very precise instructions, does it make me a painter? No.

We as photographers, do we like someone else's name under our photographs? Well, I certainly don't like that.

Part of my education is European copyright law. It says that you are the author (writer/designer/photographer) of any work that you make as long as you did not make it as an employee of the company that you are working for. Contract authors will always remain to be the author of their work, no matter what the contract says. You can sell the rights of ownership and exploitation of a work and you can even agree to not being credited for the work. But it is lawfully impossible to hand over the authorship itself. So, even if I paint my own name to that painting from above, and even when the original painter agrees to doing so, it will never make me the author of the work itself. Jenoptik is a German company, so they have to stick to the law when claiming who is the designer of their camera.

Will it make any difference to us, customers using those products, to know who designed them? Maybe not for everybody, but for me it does make a difference to know from what breed of design my camera stems. In this particular case I like to know that the mechanical solutions come from F&H because I have many years of good experiences with their products, while I have had considerably more problems with Jenoptik's. (Just for the record: I have no intention to say anything generic about the quality of Jenoptik products. The problems have always been solved under warranty.)

So, as much as I like to be informed about the heritage of the products I work with, the companies involved in the designing of those products have a legal right to be credited for their effort. This can only be beneficial to all.

EPd
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Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: thsinar on January 28, 2008, 07:24:00 pm
EPd,

With all due respect:

This is a known information and old "news", since quite some time, from you but also freely from the web.

I would rather need some technical details about this setup, about its distribution channels, etc ....

It seems to me that you are the spokesman for all Rolleiflex matters.

Can you enlighten us all?

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

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It is always nice to see that other sources can confirm my information, now and then:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=170233 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=22726&view=findpost&p=170233)
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Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: thsinar on January 28, 2008, 10:15:55 pm
EPd,

I don't see any clash, rather the need to get clarifications about the "Rolleimetric" camera and how people can get it, if interested. We do not need statements like "Have you seen, I was right"!
From this point of view, I don't see your need to start a clash and arguments. And I guess you don't "need to offer some "proof"", like you say it: members have enough judgement to sort it out by themselves.

I am sincerely also and slowly fed up with your allusions about my position and not being a "real" photographer: I have nothing to prove and I have probably made my living from photography (by shooting in my studio) a long time before you even started. In this respect, and since you wish to list always the links to statements that I did, I suggest you to link to the very first one, which explains in detail  who I am, where I come from and what is my "real" background. That would be much more interesting. All we know is that photography is your profession for over 15 years. I have been myself starting in 1980: therefore a bit longer than yourself, nearly twice as long, isn't it?

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....topic=13504&hl= (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=13504&hl=)

Nobody has ever put in question the availability of Phase backs on the Rolleiflex 6008: you suggest the contrary. Misleading, at the very least!

It has been informed by others and it is also well known that the Rolleiflex was available as a bundle with the P20.

What will effectively happen with Rollei-Metric, Phase One and the Rolleiflex Hy6 model, that's another story which I do not wish to elaborate on.

Now you claim that you cannot make a declaration in public, when on the other hand you don't miss any single opportunity to jump in whenever you wish to "rectify" posts made by others or to write that you were right: rather a strange behavior. I did not ask you to make an official statement in the name of a company, but to share your deep insider knowledge (your own words) the way you claim to have it. Certainly statements like "I know it and I have insider information" does not bring anybody any further, even more when those claims are made under the cover of anonymity. You cannot on one hand make loud claims about sensitive and important issues, and then complain that people wish to know a bit more about it.

I did not question your quality of the information, with exception to the Sinar Hy6 and who has developed this product, and I still do, whatever your claims and suggestions are again here.

What I questioned and am still doing, is the way you are intervening, nothing more. And if you are honest, you will remember that I had written you the very same in my PM to you, in answering yours. And I did explain to you as well, that I did not wish you doing claims involving the Sinar name and brand, which you did a few times. This simply to avoid confusions and because it is not your prerogative at all to do so.

Now, if you want the reason WHY I did not mention the existence of the 45° finder, I'll give it to you: Sinar has not (yet) decided to have this item in the list of accessories for the Sinar Hy6. We are currently looking at it, and I shall inform in due time, like I always did. Period. It would have been wrong to announce such when not available. Therefore, I kindly but firmly ask you to not trying to suggest my non-knowledge of what I am speaking about.

Thank you for "the poor job" I am doing here. I don't need any flowers. I am simply doing my part of the work, with my knowledge and with the knowledge of some of my colleagues, with the very strong wish to provide an information as accurate and true as possible. We are all doing our job at the best of our abilities, be sure of that. It has been rather appreciated on this forum so far, despite you putting in doubt me doing a good job.

Last but not least important point for me: I kindly but firmly ask you as well not to write sentences like "Your barking about it will no scare me away....". I have first no prerogative and "power" to do so, secondly it is not even my intention, and thirdly, it does not appear to me having barked by any means!

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

edited for correction

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Thierry,

The last time we clashed you were quite clear about not wanting my respect:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=158203 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=21178&view=findpost&p=158203)

I have always been clear about my positon: I am independent regarding camera matters, unlike you. I am a photographer. Not in the sense that you claim to be ( http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=124541 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=17511&view=findpost&p=124541) ), but a real photographer, who makes his living with photography and who lives for it:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=143490 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19989&view=findpost&p=143490) On top of that I have quite precisely explained my position in a PM, sent to you on October 10th 2007. Asking for a declaration in public while I have voluntarily made the effort to tell you exactly where I'm coming from is rather dishonest, I would say.

It was merely you who has questioned the quality of my information several times already, while trying to put in your "weight" as a Sinar representative. Still, so far my information has proved to be correct. My claims about the availability of the Phase backs for the 6008 are just one example. My pointing at public sources was just because I felt I needed to offer some "proof", but I would never have done so wouldn't I have known it was correct at a deeper level. I have reported all kinds of backround information regarding the Hy6, its development and the announcement of several products for it, like the 45 degree prism finder, which you never mentioned, but is available now, as predicted by me. I even had to set straight some of your claims regarding the Hy6. Does that make me the spokesman of all Rolleiflex matters? No, I wish someone would do a better job than I do regarding this brand. Does this mean that I should leave talking about these matters to the officials? Hopefully not, given the very poor job that they have been doing in providing relevant information to us, photographers (and that even includes you). Your barking about it will no scare me away, if that is what you would like to know. And regarding the matter of "respect": is there anything more I should "enlighten us all" about?   

EPd
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Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: jpjespersen on January 28, 2008, 11:06:51 pm
you guys have way too much free time!
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: thsinar on January 28, 2008, 11:12:11 pm
you are right, and I wish I would not loose it this way.

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you guys have way too much free time!
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Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: HarperPhotos on January 28, 2008, 11:36:12 pm
Hi Thierry,

One thing I like about the Forum on LL is the fact that You, Yaya and some bloke from Phase in Florida make yourselves available to answer questions us photographers might have concerning your products.

I actually contacted a person (who will remain name less) yesterday at Mamiya Japan and suggested that they too have some one available on this forum and they replied that they were going to take it up there superiors.

So at the end of the day don't let this dick head from Utah piss ya off mate as I greatly appreciate your advise.

Cheers

Simon
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: jpjespersen on January 29, 2008, 12:06:23 am
If your going to be like that..

Your an idiot.  And your website sucks..  mate.



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So at the end of the day don't let this dick head from Utah piss ya off mate as I greatly appreciate your advise.

Cheers

Simon
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Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: jpjespersen on January 29, 2008, 12:09:31 am
I wasn't trying to piss off thiery, just making a response about the abnormally long postings, just rambling at each other and not giving much info.  It just seemed like a lot of wasted time, like I am spending right now, was put in to it.
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: EricWHiss on January 29, 2008, 12:17:20 am
I'm a rollei shooter and its a great system, with lots of really useful features such as the 1/1000 sync, 1/3 stop adjustments in the lenses, ergonomic features, great metering, etc.  The lenses I have used have all been superb.  But it seems nearly anything connected to the old Rollei stuff or the new collaborative Hy6 has been clouded in confusion.  Where to get service, parts, anything.  

There have been a few people that have posted information that's very valuable to me and I appreciate that - from all of you guys.

After reading one of these earlier posts that it might be possible, I wrote to all the US contacts for Rolleimetric and also called and spoke with a DSMWW tech from the Japanese parent company Komamura that bought out Rollei's inventory (or whatever agreement)  when they went insolvent and no one from Rolleimetric ever responded, and the others didn't know if it could be done and never got back to me.    Lance Schad from Captureintegration was able to get the definitive info - that yes they were available and also provide a cost and I've since e-mailed with him about it.

I'm happy to see it as it gives me and anyone else with a 6008 more future options.  There are still reasons to upgrade to a Hy6 so that is an option too along with fitting a sinar or hasselblad CF back.  For myself the choice will be price dependent and I wonder if Phase is interested enough to make the upgrade a good decision financially or if one of the venders selling the Hy6 will want to compete for these potential customers with an upgrade pathway or some kind of incentive.  

Eric
Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: thsinar on January 29, 2008, 01:16:49 am
that was exactly my point to EPd, giving useful information, rather to praise oneself for the rightness of previous posts.

And on the other hand I won't ever let things being said the way they have been put by EPd with so many suggestions about myself and the way I am doing my work or not being a photographer: that is not my style and I shall answer each and any time to rectify such.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
I wasn't trying to piss off thiery, just making a response about the abnormally long postings, just rambling at each other and not giving much info.  It just seemed like a lot of wasted time, like I am spending right now, was put in to it.
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Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: thsinar on January 29, 2008, 01:25:19 am
Dear Eric,

As far as the Sinar Hy6 is concerned: orders, servicing and repairs, as well as accessories and other parts is available through our normal sales channels and our exclusive distributors or their dealers' network, worldwide in any country.

upgrade path: I suggest you to contact Sinar's distributor at your place or directly Greg King at SBI.

I guess that there will be both some attractive offers from Sinar and/or its distributors, but possibly different from country to country.

Best regards,
Thierry

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But it seems nearly anything connected to the old Rollei stuff or the new collaborative Hy6 has been clouded in confusion.  Where to get service, parts, anything.

... or if one of the venders selling the Hy6 will want to compete for these potential customers with an upgrade pathway or some kind of incentive. 

Eric
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Title: new phase/mamiya but what about Rollei Hy6
Post by: bradleygibson on January 29, 2008, 01:29:49 am
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There have been a few people that have posted information that's very valuable to me and I appreciate that - from all of you guys.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=170480\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ditto.

EPd, Thierry, you've both been a source of valuable information to regular readers of these forums--thanks to both of you.

Misunderstandings often happen when there is no face-to-face context.  From the sidelines, both of you seem very interested in photography as an art, and seem genuinely interested in the truth, even if some errors or misinterpretations may have been made in the past.

In my book, you are both highly credible sources, and offer valuable insights into the industry that is available nowhere else that I know of.

I'm hoping we can put any friction between you behind us.

Best regards,
Brad